[Takelli]

Originally Posted by Malacite

PUP is not a DD.

I actually don't know what to classify it as, because like BLU & RDM the job is highly versatile. But I suppose most people just pidgeonhole it into the DD role and I suppose it's not totally unwarranted; All the PUP can do on his own is swing his fists. Hate-free Cure V and Blizzard 4's that can outclass a BLM is pretty epic though.

Depending on the set up. Pup can be a DD, but not as strong as most DDs.

They are GREAT healers though with /dnc post 60. Even at lvl 40, they are great too. Drain Samba+ Curing Waltz. With a 7 tick REfresh on the Puppet with a healing head. They are great with healing. I think that 2 pup/dnc with a healing set can keep a party going for hour non stop.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Now suppose a BST gets in a party, and goes toe to toe with a WAR or THF or DRG or what have you. Unless someone is parsing, no one will take notice of the BSTs performance. Because the job doesn't have anything remarkable about it that you can simply observe (like SAM's e-peen WS damage), the other 5 party members walk away with this impression: "We did alright," not "Wow, I didn't know BST could do good damage."

The more you keep trying to explain "the way it is" the more you just keep making my points for me. BSTs aren't asking for a WTFPWN solution, they just want something to be recognized for other than "Hey, that guy just made off with the lizard I was going to claim."

The nicest it ever gets is "Hey, thanks for pulling that link off of us." Our "defining" ability is reviled more than it is appreciated, though.

PUP and BST both deserve something that defines them and something they are desired for. That's the biggest problem they face - they have nothing to be desired for.

Even SMN has that, for all they want to bitch about about not being able to summon as much as they'd like to, they are known for both that and being a capable healer when played right. They get to point Garuda's Claws and other big attacks in due time.

[Karinya]

Originally Posted by Armando

A BST (or PUP for that matter) with no pet is dead weight; you could have a RDM meleeing and get comparable numbers.

Is this some kind of joke? An A rating in axes, plus access to hauby, thick set and other powerful melee gear (including adaberk; IIRC ares, askar and amir too) vs. a B rating in swords, no access to the higher DMG swords, no access to the better sword WS (which aren't as good as the better axe WS to begin with), and hardly any melee gear aside from assault jerkin and some Dyna-Tav drops? (And that's assuming the RDM is doing whatever he can to gear for melee, using a melee SJ, eating melee food, and not swapping in elemental staves. Would you invite that RDM back?)

There's just no comparison between an A ranked skill in a respectable DD weapon and, well, anything else, really.

Not every BST has the gear and food to DD, but the job is certainly capable of it, in the hands of the right player.

But in any case, since the recast reduction on Reward, IIRC BST has an easier time keeping their pet alive than either DRG or PUP, and a shorter recast to call a new one if they lose it. So assuming they have no pet is a *really* hostile (and unlikely) assumption.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

SMN can resummon pets no wait.

If nothing is viable for charming in the surrounding camp, then next available jug is called either within five minutes or instant. Only downside to this is the zones where you're left with jugs as your only viable option.

DRG and PUP, make sure your pet is 100 HP upon dismissal otherwise you're next pet is within 20 mins of the last or, past the 20, totally resummonable.

Of the four, three can have thier pets zone with them, BST can't. BST is the only job where the pet growth curve is stunted, so once you pass a point with certain jugs, they are no longer viable against the current BST level. Only a handful ever get near the 75 cap, the rest become farming jugs. This is really the only spot I'd like to see yet another pet tweak, aside from SE easing up just a bit on what can be charmed (hpemdes at least).

Letting all HQ jugs be uncapped - something BSTs have been begging SE to do for the last, oh, five years - is something needs to consider since it easily addresses the lack of variety in pets at 75.

BST has no complaints about gear, but lacks job traits for melee. I don't even care if summoning a jug or charming a certain mob gave me a latent trait for a time, it would at least be something and add some strategic depth to the job.

Making Terrorize less of a joke - particularly in the face of Jettatura being free - would also be nice. Not that I expect this one to change the other merits are far more attractive now anyway.

I do see building on/around Snarl, its pretty great for the BST at least in PTs and campaign, but helpful for those pinch escapes you make with jugs at times as well.

[Armando]

Is this some kind of joke? An A rating in axes, plus access to hauby, thick set and other powerful melee gear (including adaberk; IIRC ares, askar and amir too) vs. a B rating in swords, no access to the higher DMG swords, no access to the better sword WS (which aren't as good as the better axe WS to begin with), and hardly any melee gear aside from assault jerkin and some Dyna-Tav drops? (And that's assuming the RDM is doing whatever he can to gear for melee, using a melee SJ, eating melee food, and not swapping in elemental staves. Would you invite that RDM back?)

There's just no comparison between an A ranked skill in a respectable DD weapon and, well, anything else, really.

Right, right. Just leave out the Joyeuse (remember kids, DMG > DPS and every BST has Temperance Axe) and the Enspell and Composure and we're golden. Let's leave out the Evisceration (Blau Dolch/Joytoy /NIN) and Vorpal Blade (Joytoy /WAR) too. And if we're going to consider high end gear, let's ignore the Suppa helping RDM's sword skill while not helping BST's axe skill. Let's ignore the the fact that RDM can equip Dusk gear, Life Belt, Acc Rings, Chiv Chain and Turban/O-Hat like half the other DDs, and Scorp Harness.

A BST with no pet is a DD with an A- skill but no abilities or traits outside his sub job. That's what I call dead weight. Every DD in the game has at least A- skill. Many of them can wear the same things BST can or comparable things. We can have a nice little math spat over whether or not a RDM can keep up with a no-pet BST for the next 5 posts, but that won't change the fact that a BST with no pet brings absolutely nothing to the table but a weapon, which is the point I was really making. Even THF, which is so frequently laughed at in the DD world, can do better than that.

Of the four, three can have thier pets zone with them, BST can't. BST is the only job where the pet growth curve is stunted, so once you pass a point with certain jugs, they are no longer viable against the current BST level. Only a handful ever get near the 75 cap, the rest become farming jugs. This is really the only spot I'd like to see yet another pet tweak, aside from SE easing up just a bit on what can be charmed (hpemdes at least).

Letting all HQ jugs be uncapped - something BSTs have been begging SE to do for the last, oh, five years - is something needs to consider since it easily addresses the lack of variety in pets at 75.

These are things I can fully get behind. There reeeeeally needs to be a whole lot more alternatives for jug pets. Charming and partying are big conflicts of interest.

[Balfree]

If SE ever pulls that off... uncapped jugs... I'll play again.

[Malacite]

Originally Posted by Armando

Right, right. Just leave out the Joyeuse (remember kids, DMG > DPS and every BST has Temperance Axe) and the Enspell and Composure and we're golden. Let's leave out the Evisceration (Blau Dolch/Joytoy /NIN) and Vorpal Blade (Joytoy /WAR) too. And if we're going to consider high end gear, let's ignore the Suppa helping RDM's sword skill while not helping BST's axe skill. Let's ignore the the fact that RDM can equip Dusk gear, Life Belt, Acc Rings, Chiv Chain and Turban/O-Hat like half the other DDs, and Scorp Harness.

A BST with no pet is a DD with an A- skill but no abilities or traits outside his sub job. That's what I call dead weight. Every DD in the game has at least A- skill. Many of them can wear the same things BST can or comparable things. We can have a nice little math spat over whether or not a RDM can keep up with a no-pet BST for the next 5 posts, but that won't change the fact that a BST with no pet brings absolutely nothing to the table but a weapon, which is the point I was really making. Even THF, which is so frequently laughed at in the DD world, can do better than that.

And this is why I never listen to what Karinya has to say :D

I've said it before & I'll say it again; God forbid SE stick some even match mobs around the common & merit party camps for a BST to charm. Some of those HQ jugs ain't cheap you know. A RNG may spend a lot of money over time on ammo, but those HQ jugs (especially the 30 minute ones) add up fast as well.

Uncapped jugs sure would be nice. Steffi is a damn good pet to have, but her max level I believe is 55 (65 with full BST Affinity) which sucks since she lasts for 90 minutes and is dirt cheap to synth (4 8 gil carrots...) I would still like more control over our pets though, as well as a reduced timer for Sic. 2 minutes is often far too long resulted in wasted TP depending on how well your pet is performing.

If nothing else, I want to be able to pic what move they use because it's beyond aggravating having a pet with AoE attacks and they end up using one of them and hitting other nearby mobs. I've gotten killed plenty of times this way before and before anyone argues about skill, there are plenty of situations where it's entirely unavoidable (and I'm not just referring to EXP)

[Ketaru]

I've said it before & I'll say it again; God forbid SE stick some even match mobs around the common & merit party camps for a BST to charm. Some of those HQ jugs ain't cheap you know.

You know, I've always suspected that it was intentional? Back when ToAU first come out and every colibri camp wasn't camped to death, some of my best EXP came from using leeches and bees to fight off nearby colibri.

Enter Greater Colibri, and suddenly we're in an area with no servicable pets. A departure from virtually every colibri camp before it...

[Karinya]

I got the impression that you were referring to a RDM set up for a party just pulling out a weapon and meleeing, which a BST is clearly going to destroy in damage. Since you're actually talking about a RDM using a melee SJ, gear (including some hard-to-get gear most RDMs won't have at all) and presumably food... that might be close, I guess. I'd still want to see it before believing it.

[Pai Pai Master]

Party refresh for SMN eh? Tempting....