[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Originally Posted by Gyotsha

Ninja just needs something that either makes it a good DD or better tank in endgame. I've tried so many times to finish the toau storyline, but because nin is my only 75 at the moment, it's next to impossible. Nobody wants nin for the mission because it doesn't deal enough damage, and nobody wants nin to tank because Alexander hits too fast to keep shadows up very well. That's some job balance for ya right there. Just because I leveled ninja, I can't finish part of the storyline.

That doesn't just apply to ninja though. SE makes some things so difficult that people only want certain jobs in their party, and the rest get screwed. It's almost like SE is only focusing on balancing jobs in parties and completely ignoring job balance for endgame and missions.

Everything you've just said here is complete and utter BS. I'm going to zero in on the mission aspect

All it takes to complete missions is initiative. "Ideal" jobs simply help. NIN, DNC and THF are not at the top of my list for ToA44 and so long as they're not all in the same party, I think its possible to win with one of them present.

DNC is pushing it, though. They really slow a group down in timed events.

But really, its all about taking initiative and leading the right group of people. If you're going NIN to ToA44, know that you are going as a DD and a DD only and get a PLD to tank it. Part of getting things done is putting aside how you want to do things and instead tackling objectives by how you need to tackle them.

I honestly have no place in my mission statics for people who have a "favorite" job. If you expect to always go as your favorite or play it only the way you like it, you won't be completing the missions with my group. You fill the role the group needs, its not about self-gratification.

People trying to complete high-tier missions need to realize that preparation is key and far more important than what job you are. Bring reraise items, Hi-potion/ether tanks, food and whatever else you need for a mission. Don't expect the mages to babysit you because they might not have the time. Read up on the mission and make sure everyone is in on the strategy. If the leader doesn't speak up on the strategy then be the one to speak up and cover it. Don't let everyone go in unsure.

[Armando]

Honestly I think NIN's problem is a community mindset problem. You can't tell me the job doesn't have the tools needed to DD when it has x1.54 weapon DPS thanks to Dual Wield with a Suppa on, and because it already posses both Utsusemi spells (at full power) it's free to sub WAR and exploit Berserk and Double Attack in any situation. It's not even like the job has weak weapons to compensate for its insane Dual Wield levels - Perdu Blade's DPS alone is very respectable, and the fact that its +5 Acc/+10 Attack applies to both weapons just makes it all the more powerful. NIN's high degree of Dual Wield and low Delay weapons also means it has an innate TP speed boost, so it's not really lacking in that department either (especially when coupled with Double Attack.)

There is a vicious circle perpetuated by the community. On the way to 75 people invite NIN only to tank. Because they only get invited to tank, a very big portion of them don't have proper DD gear sets. Because they don't have proper DD gear sets, they continue to cement their positions as only tanks. The job has the tools it needs but they go unutilized, much like many PLDs continue to run around in Knightly Mantles, Gluttony Swords, VIT rings, Medeval Collars and sometimes even eschew Life Belt for Warrior's Belt +1. Then they graduate to full Adaman and use Beavertails in activities where the mobs can actually be hurt, and a Joyeuse would be very, very advantageous.

Perhaps if SE gave them a minor/placebo DD update people would naturally start to gravitate towards that aspect of NIN, but I honestly don't think a DD "fix" is necessary.

[hexx]

Originally Posted by Armando

Honestly I think NIN's problem is a community mindset problem. You can't tell me the job doesn't have the tools needed to DD when it has x1.54 weapon DPS thanks to Dual Wield with a Suppa on, and because it already posses both Utsusemi spells (at full power) it's free to sub WAR and exploit Berserk and Double Attack in any situation. It's not even like the job has weak weapons to compensate for its insane Dual Wield levels - Perdu Blade's DPS alone is very respectable, and the fact that its +5 Acc/+10 Attack applies to both weapons just makes it all the more powerful. NIN's high degree of Dual Wield and low Delay weapons also means it has an innate TP speed boost, so it's not really lacking in that department either (especially when coupled with Double Attack.)

There is a vicious circle perpetuated by the community. On the way to 75 people invite NIN only to tank. Because they only get invited to tank, a very big portion of them don't have proper DD gear sets. Because they don't have proper DD gear sets, they continue to cement their positions as only tanks. The job has the tools it needs but they go unutilized, much like many PLDs continue to run around in Knightly Mantles, Gluttony Swords, VIT rings, Medeval Collars and sometimes even eschew Life Belt for Warrior's Belt +1. Then they graduate to full Adaman and use Beavertails in activities where the mobs can actually be hurt, and a Joyeuse would be very, very advantageous.

Perhaps if SE gave them a minor/placebo DD update people would naturally start to gravitate towards that aspect of NIN, but I honestly don't think a DD "fix" is necessary.

I agree with this SOOOOO much. You wouldnt believe the amount of guff I would get from people for tanking in a Hauby as NIN. In my DD set up, I was out DDing most of the DDs just by the fact that my Jin's were hitting close to the 1k mark on Imps and the like. A lot of people forget that NIN's as it is can crit up the ass, now add in max crit merits and high DEX? Holy crap you wont need voke half the time!

[Malacite]

Very good points Armando.

But just from a technical standpoint, why would NIN even want to tank? Historically speaking, getting into a straight up fight was the last thing a Ninja wanted because the Samurai would slaughter them. They weren't gods of death, they were just very sneaky assassins and I've been disturbed by SE's lack of attention to their own history.

If anything, Samurai (you know, the guys who fight to the last breath no matter what) should be the tank. And while I'm on the subject SAM needs a boost to it's archery rating. C+? How about B+ SE? The Samurai were the greatest archers the world has ever seen, striking their targets with a Yumi on horse back with deadly accuracy.

Now obviously they can't make it too good at tanking because of the Job's already great DD potential unless they expanded on Seigan possibly in a way that greatly boosts their damage mitigation while hurting DPS.


All NIN needs is an adjustment to shuriken costs (I don't think anyone's asking for free shuriken, that would be crazy. Just make them reasonably affordable!) and possibly a boost to the elemental wheel? A NIN/BLM can put up some fairly impressive numbers with the wheel but that requires HQ staves and a lot of MAB/INT gear. Maybe a JA that impairs your melee ability but enhances your ninjutsu, allowing to cast faster and for more damage?

@. @ or maybe I've been playing/ watching too much Naruto and the Shinobi games.

[Armando]

Historically speaking

Stop. Historically speaking, ninjas have never had the ability to create shadow images of themselves. If they had, they would've tanked in real life and gotten into a lot of "straight up fights."

Also, I'm pretty sure historical dragoons didn't jump great distances, wield spears, or have a wyvern familiar. They rode on horses and shot guns (muskets I think?) I'm almost sure monks can't shoot ki projectiles. I may be wrong on this one, however; who knows what those crazy old guys really do with their free time.

Edit: Oh yeah, and the historical paladins didn't run around in full armor brandishing a wooden stick, because that looks - and is - stupid. They would also never have been caught dead with a sword as ugly as a Macuahuitl.

Regarding NIN nukes, I will concede that their effectiveness drops off sharply at higher levels from a damage point of view; but buffing their damage is treading upon dangerous waters, since their long recasts are negated by having 6 "copies" of the nuke available for casting. It's a tweak that needs to be handled with utmost care. Making them strong on /somesubthatisn'tBLM overpowers what they can do with /BLM.

[Firewind]

Historically speaking Ninja were just spies who would be occasionally called upon to assasxxxxte someone for the purely practical reason that they are close to the intended target for assasxxxxtion.

And Historically speaking Samurai rarely fought with swords or rode on horseback into battle nor did they regularly wear heavy armour. Swords were extremely expensive and broke very easily, Japanese horses at the time also generally lacked the strength to carry a fully armoured man on their back. Generally the musket was the main weapon of a samurai and before then it was the spear.

And historically Knights wouldn't fight with swords only. They were far more likely to fight with a mace due to swords being generally more or less useless as a weapon when fighting a fully armoured opponent >.>

Really Knights and Samurai only used swords to look cool and that is about it. They are generally not a very practical weapon on the battlefield unless you are on horseback fighting unarmoured opponents (which is what both the Sabre and the Katana were only used for)

[Armando]

And historically Knights wouldn't fight with swords only. They were far more likely to fight with a mace due to swords being generally more or less useless as a weapon when fighting a fully armoured opponent >.>

Depends on what time period you're looking at. Full plate didn't show up 'til around the 14th/15th century if I remember right. Maille wasn't totally effective at stopping swords; longswords were made long and pointy to split chain links on thrusts.

But you're right, swords were very expensive and they weren't always the weapon of choice.

[Malacite]

Originally Posted by Armando

Stop. Historically speaking, ninjas have never had the ability to create shadow images of themselves.

That's hardly the point and you know it. Ninjas are assassins, not warriors (incidentally this is why I hated that episode of Deadliest Warrior for pitting Ninja vs Spartan... that one was a no brainer and a stupid idea anyway as Ninjas aren't warriors) They aren't interested in a fight, period. They either had to kill their target or make a run for it because the Samurai were much more capable and disciplined fighters.

Oh yeah and let's not forget a Samurai's most powerful weapon against a ninja; sounding the alarm.

As for durability, the Katana is the greatest masterwork sword ever conceived. Only the claymore is stronger and that's chiefly because of the massive size and weight of the weapon. The craftsmanship of the Katana's folded steel is still superior.

Bows were also used quite frequently, but the Samurai's main weapon (at least in war) was usually a naginata. There's a reason just about every major military since Alexander the Great used spears. Who's talking about heavy armor btw? Samurai never wore heavy armor. In fact, IIRC most of it is leather with an extremely durable laquered bamboo with some metal.

They couldn't wear anything too heavy (and even full plate is that heavy honestly, otherwise the men at arms in Europe would never have used it) because of the quick, precice striking techniques used with the Katana.

Originally Posted by Firewind

Really Knights and Samurai only used swords to look cool and that is about it. They are generally not a very practical weapon on the battlefield unless you are on horseback fighting unarmoured opponents (which is what both the Sabre and the Katana were only used for)

This is unbelievable wrong. The sword and shield was perhaps the deadliest weapon combination ever prior to firearms, with the exception of the Crossbow and the Phalanx (Spears & Shields in a tight formation with a sword as back up)

Also, just to correct the common misconception. A Knight was a noble who wore such heavy armor that he had to be lifted by a crane onto an armored horse and was typically armed with a Lance and Shield. The "knights" you so commonly see in movies and other nonsense were actually called Men at Arms.


Samurai's never had Muskets either. They had matchlock guns (big difference) and it wasn't really as common as you think, not at first anyway.

[Armando]

That's hardly the point and you know it.

I know the real point: bringing historical accuracy into a fantasy game is stupid, especially when most representations of what a Ninja is were never based on historical accuracy in the first place.

[Akashimo]

Originally Posted by Armando

bringing historical accuracy into a fantasy game is stupid,

I'm surprised he hasn't mentioned wars under berserk do dmg to their party members too while the effect is up.

Anyways...
-Must have more CS with Lilisette.
-Give smn anything that wouldn't make us insanely forever given a mindset 1 trick like rdm/whm at birds.
-Campaign Bodies, {Yes, please.}
-Rdm access to homam(one can dream)

[Grizzlebeard]

I love it when someone brings the historical accuracy card into play regarding MMOs and threads are suddenly swamped by experts who watched a few programmes on the History Channel or looked at Wikipedia.

Back on the subject of throwing ninjas a bone. While it'll never happen it would be nice of S-E to actually give us some half decent gear choices other than the Salvage set which most people are never getting near. I still get annoyed when I think how we were stiffed on Limbus drops.

[Malacite]

Originally Posted by Grizzlebeard

I love it when someone brings the historical accuracy card into play regarding MMOs and threads are suddenly swamped by experts who watched a few programmes on the History Channel or looked at Wikipedia.

Fuck wiki, there's a little something called the library. Might wanna try it some time. I've watched numerous documentaries too.

my basic point was that any assassin (not just ninjas) generally doesn't want to be and wouldn't be getting in the face of their enemy. That should be SAM's job. It's not just a historical thing but also a flavor issue;

What ninja is going to run around yelling "EVERYBODY FIGHT ME!!!" ? When I think of Ninjas, tanking is the last thing that comes to mind, if at all. What does come to mind is stealth, spying, and absolute lethality.

[Armando]

Again: Nobody cares. It's a fantasy game, and moreover, it's Square's game. They can do whatever they want; they most certainly have no obligations to satisfy anyone's expectations of what a job should do. There are a lot of things in this game that don't make sense. If I'm wearing full plate I should always have a higher defense rating when unbuffed than some guy running around in chain or leather or cloth. Gameplay comes before logic or realism.

EDIT: Your "I can't picture..." argument flies out the window the moment you realize that I can't really picture a WHM or SCH going on a berserker rage or letting out fierce battlecries, but apparently subbing /WAR can have that sort of psychological impact on people.

[Durahansolo]

Originally Posted by Malacite

What ninja is going to run around yelling "EVERYBODY FIGHT ME!!!!!"

Is that Ninja named Leroy?

[Ketaru]

Do not forget that if we concern ourselves with being faithful to real life, casting Thundaga in metal area that is damp and underwater (kind of like Alzadaal Undersea Ruins) would go under the "Bad Ideas" collumn.