[Ketaru]

To say NIN wasn't meant to be the target of attacks isn't correct, though, in my opinion. Think, for example in IV with fights against Behemoths. Behemoths counterattacked almost every attack against them. In those sorts of fights, Edge really pulled ahead in damage for me because he had that Utsusemi-like ability and could self-apply it. To say it was even more situational there than it is in XI is probably an understatement, but it isn't wrong to say attacks that were directed at the NIN were actually a good thing sometimes.

In line with throwing though, and apparently the Quick Draw-ish suggestion, what if NIN had a job ability that was on, say, a 1 minute timer that lets you choose do use throwing weapons for one of several different possibilities? For example, you could select to use the job ability to Dispel effects+damage, or you could use it for enmity spike+damage, or a purely magical damage attack (say, dark element).

[BurningPanther]

NIN was obviously meant to purposefully draw hate to some degree, Utsusemi doesn't exactly scream "don't use me!"
While it's obvious they didn't intend full-on tanking, I expect the devs envisioned something like NIN/THF utilizing Utsusemi for a reduced-risk SATA, or some such.

[Malacite]

Or to keep your ass alive from shuriken spamming.

Trust me, you do not need provoke when you've got shuriken to blow.

[Armando]

I'm thinking more along the lines of SATA partner or even SATA target after the tank has been SATA'd. Or even just giving the tank a breather using Provoke. You also don't need hate to make use of Utsusemi, let's not forget AoEs.

Still not convinced NIN was meant to spam shurikens as a primary form of attack when the cost of making Shurikens is far, far greater than almost any kind of RNG ammo (only exception being Gold Bullets and Platinum Bullets, but Silver Bullets are far stronger than both), and they can be expended so much faster. SE may make bad choices sometimes but I don't think they're clueless as to the worth of materials.

If that was their goal, I'm sure they'd have noticed that people really, really can't afford Shuriken at all and would've done a price cut (well, more efficient synths probably) already.

[BurningPanther]

I think you're right. If NIN was meant to spam shuriken, not only would they be a whole lot cheaper to make, they'd probably have a great deal less damage potential.

[Evion]

Are we talking about the same shuriken here? You can buy them from the Tenshodo or AH for 3-4 K a stack of 99, which is about the same as most arrows?

[Lmnop]

Ahhh page 8. Hi, guys.

I've probably wined about it before, but what I'd like to see for Ninja isn't a Ninja update at all (yet, anyway). I'd like to see Warrior buffed with a few new tricks instead. But not to make Warrior a primary tank and certainly not to improve their DD at all. It'd be nice if it increased their ability to solo some and tank smaller things and perhaps survive /sam in exp >.> but what I'm really after, here:

a) An ability (or multiple -- see Afflatus) that removes pld/nin endgame dependency and brings back facetanking.

b) A method for a Nin/war to survive the likes of Ixion, for instance. Or any number of endgame badasses that just destroy pure blink tanks.

If some sort of mess of mutually exclusive abilities (once again, Afflatus. Hasso/Seigan, Sch Arts), it'd be nice to see one work better with pld, and the other work better for nin, while both would be situationally useful to war as a main.

However they pulled all that off, it would be nifty.


And stuff.

[Aksannyi]

PLD/NIN is SOOOOOO two years ago. PLD/RDM baby.

I'm amazed that people still play Ninja. To me, that job's usefulness ends at 37. I guess some enjoy it, but I don't. Was a headache to level it as a subjob, and without a considerable update I will probably hate every second of getting it to 66 for Maat's cap.

[Armando]

Are we talking about the same shuriken here? You can buy them from the Tenshodo or AH for 3-4 K a stack of 99, which is about the same as most arrows?

You do know there are higher tiers of Shuriken, right? Also if I remember right you can only buy like one stack from Tenshodo a day. If they're sold out you'd have to wait or buy them for 10k at the AH.

[Malacite]

Lowest price of the basic shuriken is 29 gil but if they sell out it can sky rocket and it only gets much worse as you move up the tiers.


I don't know about spamming them either, at least not everyone but it wouldn't kill them to adjust the materials and smithing level required to make them. Steel Ingots for the basic shuriken? Come on. They should at least be affordable, not necessarily common.

And I still think they should have just placed all the tools under alchemy... elemental tools in 1 tier, then enfeebling and then buffs so someone with 80+ Alchemy could HQ all of them as opposed to spreading them across 4-5 crafts.

RNG only needs Wood and/or Alchemy (with smithing and gold subs) and still pays out the nose for the top ammo.

[Gyotsha]

Ninja just needs something that either makes it a good DD or better tank in endgame. I've tried so many times to finish the toau storyline, but because nin is my only 75 at the moment, it's next to impossible. Nobody wants nin for the mission because it doesn't deal enough damage, and nobody wants nin to tank because Alexander hits too fast to keep shadows up very well. That's some job balance for ya right there. Just because I leveled ninja, I can't finish part of the storyline.

That doesn't just apply to ninja though. SE makes some things so difficult that people only want certain jobs in their party, and the rest get screwed. It's almost like SE is only focusing on balancing jobs in parties and completely ignoring job balance for endgame and missions.

[Malacite]

Originally Posted by Gyotsha

Nobody wants nin for the mission because it doesn't deal enough damage

o rly?

Manji Shuriken - FFXIclopedia, the Final Fantasy XI wiki - Characters, items, jobs, and more

Manji Shuriken
(Throwing) All Races
DMG: 63 Delay: 192
Lv. 48 NIN


Damage Per Second: 19.69
TP Per Hit: 5.2%

Stackable: 99


Thus my previous posts in regard to the costs of the bloody things. NIN isn't lacking in DD potential, it's lacking in affordability. Seriously, even just 1 stack of those would be a massive contribution to the fight.

[Vyuru]

I dunno, do Ninja really need an update though?

We've only recently gotten Pld back on par with Nin as tanks in the eyes of the community, I'd really rather not buff Nin to be better tanks now. Then for the DD aspect it seems like they are pretty good as well. Sure, they may not be as innately strong as say, War or Drk, but can those jobs tank without taking damage?

Better shuriken synths as an indirect DD buff I'd be ok with, some other form of DD/tanking buff I'm not so sure.

Also I think using ToAU is a poor example of why ninja needs a boost. Seems like a whole lot of mobs were added to try to reduce the efficiency of blink tanking in that expansion.

[BurningPanther]

What NIN could use is perhaps a more hardcore re-purposing. They were premier tanks for so long, and even after that boat has long since set sail, players still have their heads stuck only on the concept of NIN tanking, since they've known nothing else.

What is needed from the devs is a crystal clear declaration of intent for NIN, and a decisive realization of that intent. Pick a direction to take the job and then take it there without deviation or delay.

[Raydeus]

I agree with the idea that throwing WS and more affordable Shurikens would go a long way.

SE can even make the new WS+Shurikens broken for a little while to get people used to them, then adjust them to a normal level after a little while.

Like they have done it in the past.



/shinobi