[Grizzlebeard]

Originally Posted by Malacite

Fuck wiki, there's a little something called the library. Might wanna try it some time. I've watched numerous documentaries too.

I appreciate most of the time on here people are telling you to stfu but you really should try to be a little less defensive.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

There is some history that goes into the jobs, but its not history to be taken seriously in a fantasy context at all.

Some pirates actually used multi-barreled guns. COR has the hexagun, which was designed after those, yet CORs can only shoot one shot at a time and may shoot over a longer distance at times. Those multi barreled guns were for close quarters combat to make sure the other guy died, but it was one shot only and if there wasn't some damage done to the gun or its wielder in the process it would take a heck of a time to reload it.

This is why they were not common. The single barrled gun wasn't terribly practical for reloading during close combat, either, but at least it would last longer. Daggers, handaxes and shortswords were more practical for hurting your opponent if the shrapnel from cannon fire wasn't doing the job.

Hexaguns shouldn't be as common as they are, but they are for the reason of most CORs being fucking idiots waltzing around with Trump gun at 75 instead of a Murderer, Coffinmaker, Peacemaker, Shark Gun or Martial Gun at 75. I really don't care which one you have, either, so long as you stopped using Trump Gun at 56 and are using Steel Bullets with one of those other guns listed now while you are 75.

[Solymir]

Hory cow, what happened to this thread? Lol.

Meanwhile back at the ranch...

So they are finally going to introduce the last medal set, and body armor. Yay! I am still going to reserve my optimism as to what the stats on the armor will be. But increased Exp per battle for having higher medal is definitely a win.

[Balfree]

I thought ninjas were simply pirate enemies?

[Karinya]

Originally Posted by Grizzlebeard

Back on the subject of throwing ninjas a bone. While it'll never happen it would be nice of S-E to actually give us some half decent gear choices other than the Salvage set which most people are never getting near. I still get annoyed when I think how we were stiffed on Limbus drops.

Before ToAU (ie when Limbus was introduced), the jobs that got access to limbus boss drops were precisely the ones who got stiffed on the osode set. Eventually SE added jobs that got stiffed on *both*, but anyway, wear your osode and haidate and like them. (Or don't, if you have stuff that's even better, but then don't bitch.)

Everyone got at least some abjuration sets - until PUP, SCH and DNC, which get *incredibly* raw deals on high-level gear. SCH is screwed out of the Oracle, Zenith, Morrigan, Nashira, *and* Shadow Coat sets, all for no discernible reason other than they were introduced before WotG. In addition to having no crafted JSE. Pretty much they have their own relic and AF+1, yigit, goliard, errant, and that's it. They might as well not even try for those hard-to-get salvage sets because they can't wear any. Or Limbus (like NIN, they can upgrade AF+1, but can't wear any boss drops). Or sky. Or ZNMs. Or Einherjar. And of course, being a non weapon using job, they have no real use for relic or mythic weapons either. No wonder I hardly ever see any in endgame events - other than Nyzul, why would they bother?

Since ToAU, (high level) ninjas have only gotten the Pahluwan, Denali, Enkidu, and Hachiryu sets and a couple AN sets (aside from that salvage stuff we're not mentioning), if AF+1, relic, Osode, Shura, and Dusk (and I think a couple other crafted sets) weren't enough to choose from. Oh, and some non-set pieces too. So if you don't like your gear choices, tell it to the scholars.

[Malacite]

Originally Posted by Balfree

I thought ninjas were simply pirate enemies?

Well, they are in the sense that both were really just common thugs/criminals. Just that the Ninjas (arguably) hard far more discipline and an entirely different approach to things.

Really, I just object to the idea of the Ninja being the 1 to charge headfirst into battle screaming at the enemy while the Samurai wants to avoid a direct conflict. Just makes it less credible and enjoyable for me. Furthermore as I said this is a Japanese game made by a Japanese company, not some retarded Hollywood production.

I wouldn't ask for 100% historical accuracy in a fantasy game, that's pointless but they could have at least kept these two jobs in line with their respective histories and lore a little more closely and not reversed their roles. You wouldn't give a monk a rocket launcher & machine guns now would you? (Cool as that would be O.o)

Don't get me wrong, I love fantasy. But I also enjoy it a whole deal greater when it's believable.

Back on topic: Cheaper Shuriken, possible elemental wheel buff (or at least the final tier 2 enfeebles) & B+ archery rating for SAM please >_>b (or at least a B-)

[Grizzlebeard]

Originally Posted by Karinya

Since ToAU, (high level) ninjas have only gotten the Pahluwan, Denali, Enkidu, and Hachiryu sets and a couple AN sets (aside from that salvage stuff we're not mentioning), if AF+1, relic, Osode, Shura, and Dusk (and I think a couple other crafted sets) weren't enough to choose from. Oh, and some non-set pieces too. So if you don't like your gear choices, tell it to the scholars.

The point is, the sets you mentioned are all very lacklustre. Other than Salvage gear, the best slots for ninjas are still gear from years ago. AF body, haidate, fuma, dusk gloves, PC, suppa, brutal, rajas, snipers, senj, etc. with a little shura, haub macroed in for WS's. The most recent additions to gear being the walmart turban, perdu blade, cerb mantle.

AF+1 is mostly junk, the hands are nice for a WS macro, the body is slightly better than the standard AF but arguably not worth 30 coins. Relic is complete junk other than the body, again, the hands are nice but only at nighttime. Shura is by and large the same as relic, namely a nice body and head for WS macro. Dusk hands are the only useful piece out of the set as you'd choose fuma sune-ate over them. Pahluwam, Denali and Enkidu are inferior to the gear I listed. The Hachiryu set is nigh on impossible to obtain as I'm not aware of many LS's on any of the servers who defeat Pandy Warden with any regularity. And as for Sky drops, feet have no use at all, head next to useless now for a ninja, and the hands are highly situational at best. The osode is terribly overrated and doesn't parse as well as a Haub +1 for WS macroing and it's not like you'd ever TP in it over the AF body.

Now, as for your scholar tears, I don't see how one class being screwed over on gear has any connection to another in much the same boat. However, that's always been the problem with people in MMOs. Rather than acknowledge both need attention it's always more popular to play the, "You can't talk, my class is worse off!" card.

Simple fact is S-E seem to be really terrible at producing gear sets that have a use beyond more than one or two pieces for many classes, ninja included. Additionally, they seem to think it's okay to drop sets/items in events that only benefit a few classes at best. Take a look at Limbus, as I mentioned it earlier. Homam gear, which has really nice stats for a ninja which we can't use, is equippable by a Blue Mage. Now, take a look at Nashira gear, again this would be really nice for scholars but they're denied this set but look... a Blue Mage can equip this too.

[Yellow Mage]

Originally Posted by Malacite

Well, they are in the sense that both were really just common thugs/criminals.

Oh Dear Lord you actually took that seriously?

Originally Posted by Grizzlebeard

Homam gear, which has really nice stats for a ninja which we can't use, is equippable by a Blue Mage. Now, take a look at Nashira gear, again this would be really nice for scholars but they're denied this set but look... a Blue Mage can equip this too

QFTFT

[Ziero]

Originally Posted by Malacite

Really, I just object to the idea of the Ninja being the 1 to charge headfirst into battle screaming at the enemy while the Samurai wants to avoid a direct conflict. Just makes it less credible and enjoyable for me. Furthermore as I said this is a Japanese game made by a Japanese company, not some retarded Hollywood production.

Ninjas are the one's using misdirection, distracting the foes so they don't see the death that awaits them. Using their bag full of tricks, Ninjas can hit hard and fast while debilitating their enemy without them ever realizing just how much they're being hurt. Smoke bombs, sticky threads, poison gas, all tools of the ninja to weaken a foe while killing them before they even know what hit them. And they can do all of that while not even being the target of their attacker's attention, instead using illusions and mock copies to draw their foe's fire.

I dunno about you, but that works for me. So please, drop this "realistic" crap.

Also, Overwhelm, Third Eye and Seigan say hi.

Originally Posted by Yellow Mage

Oh Dear Lord you actually took that seriously?

That is what is commonly known as a "whoosh" in internet jargon. And a particularly bad one.

And the only new job that should be added to Homam Gear is Dnc. And Sch should get Nash. Nin get the Osode so they're set, Homam and Nash are God gear for jobs who can't use God gear.

[Karinya]

Originally Posted by Grizzlebeard

The point is, the sets you mentioned are all very lacklustre.

Not every set can be the best in every slot - or, indeed, any slot, when you have more sets to choose from than there are equipment slots.

If you keep making gear absolutely better, you run into very serious problems - devaluing old content, people getting trapped where they don't have enough gear to contribute usefully to the content that would get them better gear, etc. SE has avoided that trap mainly by not letting their gear keep increasing in power like a Dragonball Z character.

Other than Salvage gear, the best slots for ninjas are still gear from years ago. AF body, haidate, fuma, dusk gloves, PC, suppa, brutal, rajas, snipers, senj, etc. with a little shura, haub macroed in for WS's. The most recent additions to gear being the walmart turban, perdu blade, cerb mantle.

Brutal is from limbus - weren't you just saying limbus didn't have much for ninjas? Anyway, some of the best gear for everyone is from years ago (especially if you *also* exclude salvage, AV, and PW - i.e. the most difficult to get pieces of the last 3 expansions).

AF+1 is mostly junk, the hands are nice for a WS macro, the body is slightly better than the standard AF but arguably not worth 30 coins. Relic is complete junk other than the body, again, the hands are nice but only at nighttime. Shura is by and large the same as relic, namely a nice body and head for WS macro. Dusk hands are the only useful piece out of the set as you'd choose fuma sune-ate over them. Pahluwam, Denali and Enkidu are inferior to the gear I listed.

Unsurprisingly, since they come from regular assault, nyzul, and lower tier ZNMs. You *are* familiar with the idea that the quality of gear is related to the difficulty of the content, right?

The Hachiryu set is nigh on impossible to obtain as I'm not aware of many LS's on any of the servers who defeat Pandy Warden with any regularity.

Ah, I see you are. Well, yeah, if you rule out the best gear from recent expansions (salvage was already excluded by the previous post and I didn't see you mention Ninurta's among the best NIN gear), then recent expansions don't have any mindblowingly awesome gear. Duh.

Now, as for your scholar tears, I don't see how one class being screwed over on gear has any connection to another in much the same boat.

They're not the same boat. Ninjas have literally more than twice as many options. Which is the best is defined by relation to the others, so they can't all be the best. But you *have* them, and accordingly, have a wide variety of content you can get *some* useful gear in, even if it's not all optimal. Not everyone has the gil to buy everything on your list, let alone gets all the ex stuff on their way to/immediately at 75.

Simple fact is S-E seem to be really terrible at producing gear sets that have a use beyond more than one or two pieces for many classes, ninja included.

Not at all. They choose not to make each new set of gear 9000% more awesome than the last because of what it would do to game balance. It's a good thing you're not on the dev team or we really would have Dragonball Z power progression and people would be soloing Kirin by now.

Additionally, they seem to think it's okay to drop sets/items in events that only benefit a few classes at best. Take a look at Limbus, as I mentioned it earlier. Homam gear, which has really nice stats for a ninja which we can't use, is equippable by a Blue Mage. Now, take a look at Nashira gear, again this would be really nice for scholars but they're denied this set but look... a Blue Mage can equip this too.

Yeah, I agree that it's kind of unfair that BLU gets both limbus boss sets. But compared to other problems, I don't consider it a big deal. They need twice as many points/twice as much time to actually *get* them, anyway (just like someone with at least one homam job and at least one nashira job). And they can't wear both at once in the same slot, which is always a limiting factor on gear. Limbus benefits all jobs - both in AF+1, and in the many ancient beastcoin accessories - which is more than you can say for salvage or kings or, well, lots of stuff.

[Malacite]

Originally Posted by Ziero

Also, Overwhelm, Third Eye and Seigan say hi.

Yes because Seigan is ever so reliable. Hi2u frequently taking 1 hit -. - (and yes I macro in Saotome Haidate) SAM still dies pretty fast once hate is on it against IT and stronger.

And I'll point out Deadliest Warrior again. As much as I hated the episode (because it was painfully obvious what was going to happen as Ninjas are not true warriors) the Spartan beat out the Ninja very badly with about a 66% take of the wins. One on one in a straight up fight, the trained soldier creams the assassin.

There's nothing wrong with Ninja's tool set. It's the drawing attention to itself that's just silly. Say what ya want but that just kills the fantasy for me right there. Incidentally, so glad I have BST 75 so I can solo most of my levels (I ain't tanking on NIN and that's that. I like to level it in stages when I can afford shuriken and whack stuff with friends) It would make more sense IMO for NIN to have the hate tools THF does but then THF wouldn't have anything to bring to the table other than TH.

Unless SE could come up with some new stuff for the two jobs to work together doing sneaky shit. Now that would be cool.

[Vyuru]

Can we please stop with the historically inaccurate historical stuff? This is a game, a fantasy game, it has no bearing on reality. Also if you're going to bring up historical accuracy you need to reevaluate what you consider a reliable source.

Originally Posted by Malacite

Unless SE could come up with some new stuff for the two jobs to work together doing sneak shit. Now that would be cool.

They did, it's called SA & TA, players just don't invite thiefs into parties much, from what I have seen lately, and when they do no one will work with them to use their abilities to the fullest. Don't blame SE for the player's habits.


Anyway, on the topic of buffs to ninja just because they haven't gotten a new shiny in awhile doesn't mean that they deserve something. Yes yes, I understand that new toys and shinys are nice, and at some point should be given, but if they are balanced then they really shouldn't be getting boosts to combat or whatever because that has a tendency to make them unbalanced.

Frankly I'd lump ninja in the same boat as red mage, both are too good at what they do and need to be handled carefully when given boosts and other stuff. This doesn't mean that they shouldn't get new stuff, just that it needs to be carefully done and lack of new stuff does not entitle them to getting new things.

[Akashimo]

Originally Posted by Vyuru

They did, it's called SA & TA, players just don't invite thiefs into parties much, from what I have seen lately, and when they do no one will work with them to use their abilities to the fullest. Don't blame SE for the player's habits.

I cry on the inside when I see a thf dding full time in dragon harness, subligar and hands, relic feet, legs and head.
=/ Thf had its golden days when SE didn't say you only need 1 th4 in the ally =/

Originally Posted by Vyuru

Frankly I'd lump ninja in the same boat as red mage, both are too good at what they do and need to be handled carefully when given boosts and other stuff. This doesn't mean that they shouldn't get new stuff, just that it needs to be carefully done and lack of new stuff does not entitle them to getting new things.

Only thing I could think reasonable for Ninja, is a shuriken weapon skill or a 5 min ability to increase parrying rate while casting ninjutsu which also functions like shield mastery with a tp gain effect for successful parry. Only downside penatly to it would it take 2 or 3 tools to cast a spell instead of 1

[Ketaru]

There's nothing wrong with Ninja's tool set. It's the drawing attention to itself that's just silly. Say what ya want but that just kills the fantasy for me right there. Incidentally, so glad I have BST 75 so I can solo most of my levels (I ain't tanking on NIN and that's that. I like to level it in stages when I can afford shuriken and whack stuff with friends) It would make more sense IMO for NIN to have the hate tools THF does but then THF wouldn't have anything to bring to the table other than TH.

Once again, nobody thinks you're on the moral high ground for sticking to your principles about what jobs do. Like saying a party desperately needs a healer and their only option is a seeking BLM/WHM and the BLM/WHM would rather solo for slower EXP simply because "nuking is the right thing to do." Ziero presented a perfectly good reason why NIN is more in-line with the idea of Ninjas than you're giving it credit for.

[Ziero]

Originally Posted by Malacite

Yes because Seigan is ever so reliable. Hi2u frequently taking 1 hit -. - (and yes I macro in Saotome Haidate) SAM still dies pretty fast once hate is on it against IT and stronger.

But they're still abilities that put the Sam face to face with the mob directly in the line of fire. Exactly what you asked for.

And I'll point out Deadliest Warrior again. As much as I hated the episode (because it was painfully obvious what was going to happen as Ninjas are not true warriors) the Spartan beat out the Ninja very badly with about a 66% take of the wins. One on one in a straight up fight, the trained soldier creams the assassin.

There's nothing wrong with Ninja's tool set. It's the drawing attention to itself that's just silly. Say what ya want but that just kills the fantasy for me right there. Incidentally, so glad I have BST 75 so I can solo most of my levels (I ain't tanking on NIN and that's that. I like to level it in stages when I can afford shuriken and whack stuff with friends) It would make more sense IMO for NIN to have the hate tools THF does but then THF wouldn't have anything to bring to the table other than TH.

Unless SE could come up with some new stuff for the two jobs to work together doing sneak shit. Now that would be cool.

I love how you keep complaining about "historical accuracy" then mention The Deadliest Warrior as some sort of reference. Do you realize that show has absolutely no bearing of any kind of historical basis and is just a bunch of guys showing off weird weapons against blood filled meat sacks? Especially seeing as the only form of measurement they decided the winners of each match up was how effective a weapon was at killing someone in one hit. Seriously, stop bringing that crap up in an argument where you're bitching about historical accuracy because that garbage show is far from accurate about anything.

And again, FFXI Ninja's aren't based on actual, factual Ninja tactics and attacks, because it's hard to have someone dress up like a beastmen's gardener, wait a few days, and then stab him in his sleep, often getting themselves killed in the process. Because that's how Ninja's worked. They were spies and assassins often sent on suicide missions to get what they needed. Very rarely did they wear black very rarely did they carry actual weapons.

No, in FFXI, Ninjas are based on the way they've been portrayed in every previous Final Fantasy game since FFI. High speed attackers who often throw stuff and have "fake" elemental spells (throwing elemental balls to cast magic), using magic to increase their evasion and absorb attacks (because they've always had Blink), and most commonly of all, being able to wield two weapons at once. This is 20 years of the same concepts used over and over, and not just in FFXI, but in every major anime, comic, cartoon and movie about ninjas.

Historical accuracy means nothing.

Originally Posted by Akashimo

I cry on the inside when I see a thf dding full time in dragon harness, subligar and hands, relic feet, legs and head.
=/ Thf had its golden days when SE didn't say you only need 1 th4 in the ally =/

Those weren't the golden days because that only meant that more gimps would be allowed in the alliance to make good thfs look bad. That might have been the golden days for Mr FulltimeDragonharnessandaflegs, but for good thfs, those were dark, dark times.

Edit: Oh god, how did I miss Mal's comment's about Thf. Hate tools? Trick Attack and Collab/Accomp are the only things a Thf is good for now? Seriously? Just stop while you're behind because you do not know what you are talking about.