[Raydeus]

Originally Posted by Armando

If I was going to become disgruntled with the state of the game it would've happened already.

That's not what I meant though, just because there are many things SE should've changed long time ago that doesn't mean I'm "disgruntled" about the state of the game (after all until last month I've been paying the monthly fee uninterrupted for years since I started playing). But that also doesn't mean I'm not going to express my opinion about SE for doing this kind of thing after years of ignoring players' requests.

Originally Posted by Armando

You must think making expansions and its post-release content is a walk in the park, huh? Guess they make us wait a year between expansions just to build up the tension.

Do you really actually buy that SE didn't have the time to fix things while (and specially before) they started working on the next expansion(s)? o_O

And even if what you say was true they could've easily told players they were delaying some of the content's release some time in order to fix the issues reported by the community. There are simply too many ways SE could've fixed these things to try to justify them for not doing so.

They simply chose not to do it, as simple as that. Which makes their claim of doing these changes "after listening to the community" all the more aggravating.


Edit> Also this:

Originally Posted by Vyuru

It hardly means that I think SE fails just because I'm not singing SE's praise for this update here. This is just one part of the update that I'm going "meh" on.

[Ziero]

Originally Posted by TheGrandMom

OMG getting to the dunes when I didn't even know where the f**k it was and I was level 10 was AWESOME SHIT! Does it aggro, if it does what to, how much farther, am I going the right way, OMG this shortcut is a deadend this map sucks, gdi I'm dead gotta try again.... It not only gives you fond memories and a sense of accomplishment but you are actually learning too. You are finding out that goblins are sight aggro and you can get by them as long as they don't see you, (if you use a controller) when the ground quakes you might want to GET THE HELL OUT OF THERE, so this is a gate crystal, how far do I have to be away from that orc and not get aggro, and so much more. Yes when we are "older" and more jaded in game, we'd rather have the convienence of being able to get there quick because we've seen it all and we think we know it all but its not fair for the newer players.

I remember being a lvl 7 Thf running around exploring just for the sake of exploring. At the time the only guide I had was brady (LOL) so I didn't know squat about anything. I was in Konstach and just running along looking at the map trying to decide which path I should take...Pashow Marshlands or Valkurm Dunes. Luckily for me, I chose the dunes, ended up getting to Sandy for the first time with no real trouble and was suprised when I saw a shaved gorrilla running around.

Things like that was aways the best part of the game to me.
______________________________

Originally Posted by Raydeus

Do you really actually buy that SE didn't have the time to fix things while (and specially before) they started working on the next expansion(s)? o_O

And even if what you say was true they could've easily told players they were delaying some of the content's release some time in order to fix the issues reported by the community. There are simply too many ways SE could've fixed these things to try to justify them for not doing so.

They simply chose not to do it, as simple as that. Which makes their claim of doing these changes "after listening to the community" all the more aggravating.

1) People want NEW content in an expansion first and foremost, not minor tweaks to old content

2) New content in and of itself was already being delayed due to problems. No way should they have delayed it even more to fix minor inconveniences affecting some of the player base.

3) The did choose to ignore it because they had bigger things to deal with, they also said they would fix it when they were done with the ToAU expansion's content. Which they did. SE *does* listen to the playerbase, it's the playerbase that doesn't listen to SE.

[Armando]

Do you really actually buy that SE didn't have the time to fix things while (and specially before) they started working on the next expansion(s)? o_O

And even if what you say was true they could've easily told players they were delaying some of the content's release some time in order to fix the issues reported by the community. There are simply too many ways SE could've fixed these things to try to justify them for not doing so.

Here's the thing: the community wants a billion things. Yes, they've squeezed in other stuff between expansions, but do you think this is more important than Level Sync? More important than doing something about the rusty cap exploit? More important than doing something about the incessant nagging about FFXI's lack of PvP? More important than moving Astral Rings out of Oztroja? More important than buffing THF and PLD to be up to par with other jobs? More important than lowering the level and costs of outpost warps to more useful levels? More important than changing the mechanics of DRG's Call Wyvern? More important than fixing the TP gain disparities between extremely low Delays, normal Delays and really high Delays? More important than buffing 2-handed weapons? More important than the merit point system? More important than adding rage timers, doing something about high level NMs being able to be bound, gravitied, slept, stunned, or nuked an indefinite number of times? Doing something about MPK? Doing something about mob claim problems? Doing something to buff BST? Or doing something about the insane overcamping for Leaping Boots, Emperor Hairpin, Kraken Club, Cross-Counters, etc? Or giving WHM's Divine Veil and making Benediction remove status ailments?

There were a million things that needed to be addressed, and there still are. Do you really think these convenience changes were so important 5 years ago that they were worth delaying the above game-breaking problem fixes? You seem to be forgetting/overlooking how many changes and fixes SE has had to implement. Yes, you're right, they simply opted not to fix this these past 5 years. And they did so with good reason if you ask me. It's not as simple as "they could've fixed this a long time ago but they didn't."

[Raydeus]

Yep the first couple of times getting to the dunes and around Vana were awesome, and the world felt like it was HUGE.

But then, after a few jobs through the place the awesomeness became a liability. With so much to do and so little time to do it all the 20 mins people needed to spend riding a chocobo to the place were just annoying (at least in my case, same with having to get a tele there.)

And by the time you can get outpost warps (rank 3, already visited the 3 cities and Jeuno, chocobo license, etc.) all the magic of getting to the dunes and other xp places is pretty much gone. Which is why in my opinion it didn't made any sense you couldn't simply outpost there back in the day.

That is why you have requirements for these kinds of things, so players don't get this kind of stuff too early into their playing life. But that also made restrictions like the outpost lvl thing look out like a cheap and needless time sink for older players.



Edit > Armando why are you so adamant on making excuses for them? It's not like the world will end if you even dare to consider the idea SE isn't all mighty and wise about everything they do with Vana. o_O

[Armando]

Edit > Armando why are you so adamant on making excuses for them? It's not like the world will end if you even dare to consider the idea SE isn't all mighty and wise about everything they do with Vana. o_O

I'm defending my point of view. You say it like it's a bad thing (actually, you say it like I'm definitely wrong and there's no middle ground here.) I'm not some SE fanboy that'll have a fit if someone disses them like you seem to be implying. Do you expect me not to reply if you address the points I made?

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Originally Posted by Malacite

But now I'm curious!

I posted a perfect-pitch of a reply to Raydeus telling Armando and YM to "wait til you get to my level." But since it confused the mods so much, being that it could have been an insult or compliment, they just deleted it without submitting a reason. Real pro, guys.

Armando doesn't need to wait, he passed Ray by a long time ago.

And while I may have tossed smartass comments at YM in the past about "waiting to get to a certain level" in regards to RDM, I can't fault him for not moving it up lately since he's exploring other jobs. The fact that he's taking PLD up these days is only going to help his RDM in some regards. And he's gotten a heck of a RDM education here on DiV from the experienced RDMs here.

Its just so tiresome to see someone here who really has nothing to say beyond the negative. Its why I have him on Ignore at any rate, but some comments I saw quoted had me curious. The Ignore feature isn't perfect, so we still have to put up with some people suggesting how experienced they are in an insulting way towards people that might actually know more than they do.

And really, when you can release an MMORPG of your own, I'd love to see how you manage retcon these changes as the game expands. You probably wouldn't last long with SE, much less Blizzard or other companies.

I know its a hard cocept to grasp, especially for those that are spoiled, but when things get larger, you also have to find a way to make them seem small and managable. Sometimes you have to go backward to move forward.

People complained about how SE "dumbed down" CoPs when they just cut out what was plain retarded design in light of more and more missions being added to the game.

We have Rank 10 we can get in three nations, three storylines each with rewards.
We have ROZ, CoP, ToA and now WotG missions/quests to go with them.

And access to endgame content or zones is blocked off by some of these missions. I certainly don't envy anyone starting out right now in regards to the RoZ, CoP and ToA missions. I've finally settled on doing two more Rank 10s, one for each character just so I can have done them all. Doing CoP x2 was a pain in the ass, I could actually argue I've gotten Sea four times now, with all the retread I've done for friends.

SE decided that since they're only going to be adding more Missions to streamline CoPs a bit to make them more managable. It might seem like its robbing newer players of some sadistic fun, but they have a lot of ground to cover to catch up with the rest of the playerbase. Aside from Snoll and some mob placement in promy, its practically the same as it was.

[Raydeus]

Originally Posted by Armando

I'm defending my point of view. You say it like it's a bad thing (actually, you say it like I'm definitely wrong and there's no middle ground here.) I'm not some SE fanboy that'll have a fit if someone disses them like you seem to be implying. Do you expect me not to reply if you address the points I made?

Of course not, but you did seem to take that position for a while there.

Also, I can be a SE fanboy a lot of times (see Dissidia) but I'm also very judgemental about the things they chose to ignore and then spin their way. It works for me but I expect everyone to have their own opinion on the subject, probably most of them very different than mine. This is a forum after all. d(^^d)

Originally Posted by Omgwtfbbqkitten

I posted a perfect-pitch of a reply to Raydeus telling Armando and YM to "wait til you get to my level." But since it confused the mods so much, being that it could have been an insult or compliment, they just deleted it without submitting a reason. Real pro, guys.

Armando doesn't need to wait, he passed Ray by a long time ago.

Hopefully this will be ignored by the crazy guy if no one quotes it. <_<;

But the "wait til you get to my level" crap is the stuff only crazy BBQ says. When I said "you'll get where I am soon enough" or something like that I meant getting to the point where after playing for so long and waiting for SE to do their job you'll simply go "meh" when they finally do something (oh soooo many years later).

But of course the voices where telling BBQ something along the lines of:

Originally Posted by Evil Raydeus

Mwahahahaha you n00bs! Wait until you have as many lvl 75 jobs as I do before you talk!!!!! I'm superior so I'm always right and you have to say yes to everything I say!!!!

/shatottolaugh

What can a hume do in these situations? Maybe toss a coin and hope the crazy person doesn't follow you. <_<; /shiver

[Vyuru]

Being just a tad nitpicky here.

No, nomad moogles shouldn't have been in the game when people most used the Dunes. At that point there wasn't even such a thing as Nomad moogles, but that's besides the point.

There were Nomad Moogles in Rabao and Norg at the start of the game, well, since the start of RoZ which is when most NA players joined and when I joined, and since that was the start of the NA release I view it as start of the game. Toss in Nomad Moogles in Tavnazia Safehold, but that was later although there was alot more activity in the starter areas still by that point.

Back then, the dunes and other such areas were supposed to be a challenge to get to and survive in.

Not denying that. However I am looking at it more from the angle of parties where someone was willing to go change their job to make the party work, but unwilling to walk all the way back to one of the towns or some such thing as that. It was a major hassle to go change your sub or your main job once you reached Valkurm prior to the OP warp changes and Nomad Moogles.

You could make the arguement that they could have brought a warp item, or set their HP at the OP or in Selbina, walked back to town and then warped back, or any number of things, but we do get to the issue that some people are prepared and willing to do that and some aren't.

1) People want NEW content in an expansion first and foremost, not minor tweaks to old content

Nah, I'm more than happy to see tweaks and adjustments to old content with the new stuff. I think I'd rather see SE expand the nonfighting aspects of this game. I would like some more areas to harvest in, there just isn't as many as you can go and mine or cut wood in, and I would like to see SE do some other things as well. This is a MMORPG, it shouldn't all be killing monsters and stuff. They have alot of things to work with, which they are. But it'd still be nice to see them expound on some of the other aspects of the game a bit.

I'll also add that alot of you guys are looking at the old OP warp system from the standpoint of going there to exp, when there was still alot more to it than that.

If you're going to the Behemoth's Dominion to exp/HNM/whatever, would you rather OP warp there, or travel all the way to Jeuno, go through Qufim, and then get there? If you wanted to go to Sandy/Bastok for whatever reason, but didn't have their OP starter zone warps, would you rather OP to Valkurm and grab a choco in the Highlands/Plateau or run to Jeuno and take the airship? If you wanted to exp in Kuftal Tunnel, would you rather take the OP warp to VoS >>> Kuftal and arrive at an exp camp or go Tele-Altepa >>> Kuftal? OP warp to the Tree or choco/walk it? Exp in Gustav Tunnel?

Answers depend on where you are of course, but even so, there was always alot more uses for these warps rather than to just warp there for some exp in one small level range. So I do not agree with people when they say that originally the OP warp requirements for Valkurm/Zone X was too high to level there therefore it was useless.

[Malacite]

Originally Posted by Omgwtfbbqkitten

SE decided that since they're only going to be adding more Missions to streamline CoPs a bit to make them more managable. It might seem like its robbing newer players of some sadistic fun, but they have a lot of ground to cover to catch up with the rest of the playerbase. Aside from Snoll and some mob placement in promy, its practically the same as it was.

Couldn't agree more. While I'm still opposed to some of the CoP changes (like the enemy placements in Promyvion) they're starting to realize that as they add more and more content (like the game doesn't have enough already) some things need to be simplified.

Otherwise rather than generating continued interest people just get overwhelmed. It's part of the reason I'm glad I'm done all the missions thus far (minus the Bastok and Windurst sides of WotG). Hell, I remember feeling totally overwhelmed trying to get caught up on CoP and Zilart when ToAU came out.

I can only imagine what a newbie must feel entering Vana for the first time with such a massive plethora of quests and missions that lay ahead of him or her.


In summary, I think we can all agree that while a lot of the changes SE has been doing are long overdue, it's still better late than never and the dev team has a hell of a lot more on their plates than you might think. It's a long, arduous process creating and testing new content. Or have people suddenly forgotten that most games these days costs massive amounts of cash and are easily 2+ years worth of work?

[TheGrandMom]

Originally Posted by Omgwtfbbqkitten

I posted a perfect-pitch of a reply to Raydeus telling Armando and YM to "wait til you get to my level." But since it confused the mods so much, being that it could have been an insult or compliment, they just deleted it without submitting a reason. Real pro, guys.

There are no deleted posts in this thread because they are visible to us even after deletion. If your post has been edited by a mod it will say so underneath it and I don't see that either. I have no idea what you are talking about. Next time take your accusations to PM's, this is not the place for this.

[Malacite]

TGM dropping the hammer!

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Originally Posted by TheGrandMom

There are no deleted posts in this thread because they are visible to us even after deletion. If your post has been edited by a mod it will say so underneath it and I don't see that either. I have no idea what you are talking about. Next time take your accusations to PM's, this is not the place for this.

Odd, it was on page 5 when I left here and now it jumped back to page 4 after like three posts. That doesn't usually happen. I thought I looked over the thread and it wasn't there. But then, this PC is easily overwhelmed at times so maybe it just lagged and I missed or something.

My bad. Mods didn't do a thing.

Rest of my points still stands, though.

And no, Mal, you can't have a mystic knight.

[Ziero]

Originally Posted by Omgwtfbbqkitten

People complained about how SE "dumbed down" CoPs when they just cut out what was plain retarded design in light of more and more missions being added to the game.

We have Rank 10 we can get in three nations, three storylines each with rewards.
We have ROZ, CoP, ToA and now WotG missions/quests to go with them.

And access to endgame content or zones is blocked off by some of these missions. I certainly don't envy anyone starting out right now in regards to the RoZ, CoP and ToA missions. I've finally settled on doing two more Rank 10s, one for each character just so I can have done them all. Doing CoP x2 was a pain in the ass, I could actually argue I've gotten Sea four times now, with all the retread I've done for friends.

SE decided that since they're only going to be adding more Missions to streamline CoPs a bit to make them more managable. It might seem like its robbing newer players of some sadistic fun, but they have a lot of ground to cover to catch up with the rest of the playerbase. Aside from Snoll and some mob placement in promy, its practically the same as it was.

RotZ can be done in a weekend, at least to Sky, by less then 6. It's a joke of a mission chain with the only (optional)hard part being getting a full Ally for DM. ToAU is also a joke of a mission chain that can be done within a few days, even with their artifical time restrictions. But CoP, even with it's nerfs, is still one HELL of a long and painful mission line. And it's because of that disparity between the numerous mission chains that CoP got "nerfed". There's a ton of useless, needless fights in CoP, ones that require you to travel to every stretch of the game world (From attowah chasm to Ulge Range in one mission? Hells yea!) and even the lowbie fights in CoP can pose a greater challenge then stuff found in RotZ or ToAU. However the biggest "nerfs" to CoP were the increased ease of obtaining special items used in fights and no exp loss/exp gained change to the BCs. But because the other game missions are so easy by comparison, SE had to do something to ease the difficulty of CoP fights.

Originally Posted by Raydeus

Also, I can be a SE fanboy a lot of times (see Dissidia) but I'm also very judgemental about the things they chose to ignore and then spin their way. It works for me but I expect everyone to have their own opinion on the subject, probably most of them very different than mine. This is a forum after all. d(^^d)

They've been saying they'll fix old content once ToAU is done for years, and people bitched them out. Now, ToAU is done, and they're fixing old content but people are still bitching at them. Why?

But the "wait til you get to my level" crap is the stuff only crazy BBQ says. When I said "you'll get where I am soon enough" or something like that I meant getting to the point where after playing for so long and waiting for SE to do their job you'll simply go "meh" when they finally do something (oh soooo many years later).

Armando has been playing for some 4 years straight, I myself started this game before the NA PS2 release too. Some people never get to "your" point. I "meh"-d at this update info because it was meh-worthy changes. Even if these changes were added years ago, they'd still be meh-worthy to me. They're minor changes that won't really hurt anything, but won't really change anything either. I'd rather see the meat and potatos of an update rather then the side of corn that these types of changes are.

Originally Posted by Vyuru

Nah, I'm more than happy to see tweaks and adjustments to old content with the new stuff. I think I'd rather see SE expand the nonfighting aspects of this game. I would like some more areas to harvest in, there just isn't as many as you can go and mine or cut wood in, and I would like to see SE do some other things as well. This is a MMORPG, it shouldn't all be killing monsters and stuff. They have alot of things to work with, which they are. But it'd still be nice to see them expound on some of the other aspects of the game a bit.

I'm not complaining about getting both, but when they were doing ToAU it was either one or the other. With WotG they seemed to have planned from the start to add all these old content changes while updating the expansion. Though I'll agree it's nice getting more non-combat oriented updates. As far as harvesting and the such go, I read a suggest to add a skill rank to Helm that raises the more you do it. Personally I think it would be great because legit players who Helm'd more frequently then others would get better rewards while bots and RMT who helmed would start low and lose out even more if said character go banned. I wouldn't want it to be an actual guild of sorts, but rather a raisable skill similar to Choco digging. I'd easily get my ass back to Newton for that.

Originally Posted by Omgwtfbbqkitten

Odd, it was on page 5 when I left here and now it jumped back to page 4 after like three posts. That doesn't usually happen. I thought I looked over the thread and it wasn't there. But then, this PC is easily overwhelmed at times so maybe it just lagged and I missed or something.

My bad. Mods didn't do a thing.

Rest of my points still stands, though.

And no, Mal, you can't have a mystic knight.

Sometimes posts at the end of a page will jump around to the next page when someone adds another post. It confuses the hell outta me when it happens but it definately happens.

And what's wrong with Mystic Knight D=

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Originally Posted by Ziero

RotZ can be done in a weekend, at least to Sky, by less then 6. It's a joke of a mission chain with the only (optional)hard part being getting a full Ally for DM. ToAU is also a joke of a mission chain that can be done within a few days, even with their artifical time restrictions. But CoP, even with it's nerfs, is still one HELL of a long and painful mission line. And it's because of that disparity between the numerous mission chains that CoP got "nerfed". There's a ton of useless, needless fights in CoP, ones that require you to travel to every stretch of the game world (From attowah chasm to Ulge Range in one mission? Hells yea!) and even the lowbie fights in CoP can pose a greater challenge then stuff found in RotZ or ToAU. However the biggest "nerfs" to CoP were the increased ease of obtaining special items used in fights and no exp loss/exp gained change to the BCs. But because the other game missions are so easy by comparison, SE had to do something to ease the difficulty of CoP fights.

Regardless of how easy RoZ is, its getting people to help you with it thats the challenge. Same with ToA, more or less. CoP is more difficult, but has the same issue of getting to help you. Hell even some of the most "experienced" players turn into complete morons when you go to through CoPs.

They've been saying they'll fix old content once ToAU is done for years, and people bitched them out. Now, ToAU is done, and they're fixing old content but people are still bitching at them. Why?

Damned if you do, damned if you don't. Some people are just that way about things.

And what's wrong with Mystic Knight D=

Nothing, just don't see it happening unless SE want's to make a tank for mage mobs and throw in a Runic ability to go with it.

[Ziero]

Originally Posted by Omgwtfbbqkitten

Regardless of how easy RoZ is, its getting people to help you with it thats the challenge. Same with ToA, more or less. CoP is more difficult, but has the same issue of getting to help you. Hell even some of the most "experienced" players turn into complete morons when you go to through CoPs.

I guess I just been spoiled by my LS, we always make a point to help people out with things. And RotZ is definately one of the easiest thing to help out with.

Nothing, just don't see it happening unless SE want's to make a tank for mage mobs and throw in a Runic ability to go with it.

Psh, i've already created a perfectly workable DD Mystic Knight in that old job concept thread! Infact I may have actually tweaked some things about it since then....or maybe I'm thinking of Geo...