[Yellow Mage]

Originally Posted by Malacite

Yet another reason to buff avatars a little.

Emphasis provided to show that you're still missing the point.

Obtw

Originally Posted by Malacite

>.> thank you for inadvertedly proving my point?

Originally Posted by Yellow Mage

This is opposed to Summoners, who . . . are even more fragile than a Black Mage,

Of course I agree that a Black Mage's meager defenses are better than a Summoner's, but that was never the point at all!

[Malacite]

What, that the SMN itself should have some kind of tools on it's own? That'd be stupid. The whole point of the job is to rely on the gods it calls forth;

I just wish said gods performed enough to merit that title :3 (Well, not quite that good XD balance and all)

[Balfree]

BLM has another defense... sleep.

SMN has to summon diabolos for sleep, while a mob slaps him to death.

[Malacite]

<.< if all else fails you can always Manafont > Sleepga II or Warp since you can't be interrupted.

[Armando]

There's also Stun + Run Away. Works wonders on PLD =P

[Ziero]

Originally Posted by Malacite

>.> thank you for inadvertedly proving my point? Other than blink/SS (since most SMN sub WHM; if you're /SCH then you're really screwed >_> ) SMN can't do much to stop something from killing it other than quickly calling out an elemental spirit and praying it gets hate off you. And this is assuming it's only one mob <_<

BLM at least has some enfeebles it can throw out to try and save itself on top of SJ abilities. Yet another reason to buff avatars a little.

Personally I think SE is just dumb founded. There's no doubt in my mind that they are trying to work on a fix for SMN's woes, but just can't come up with anything concrete that won't result in mass bandwagoning. At least that's what I hope is the case. But then look at how long it took them to fix BST and DRG...

Smn has a natural Stoneskin and Blink, Blm doesn't. Smn also has an ability to drain nearly 300+ MP almost instantly, which Blm doesn't. However if either job runs out of MP, they're dog food.

Originally Posted by Yellow Mage

Emphasis provided to show that you're still missing the point.

Obtw

Of course I agree that a Black Mage's meager defenses are better than a Summoner's, but that was never the point at all!

Actually you're missing the point of Smn. The Avatars are supposed to be the ones with all the power. the Smn is nothing but a vessle for the Avatars to flow through. The problem is many of the avatar's abilities are horribly misbalanced. They gain too little for the time restraints and MP consumption they have. Ifrit's Warcry should last a lot longer then 30 seconds (+1 per skill over cap) for the MP cost to use it. Hastega lasts half as long as the actual spell and most other buff type wards (Ramuh and Shiva specifically) are laughable at best. Things like that need to be fixed. And as Mal likes to constantly complain about, Smn need a better way to main heal then /whm. If the light Spirit, and all spirits to an extent, allowed some form of control, it would be possible to cast that, direct it like a Pup does to it's Maton, and main heal completely with your Spirit. But again, the unpredictability of a Spirit combined with the massive amount of MP it drains off you makes this method unsuable. Fixes to the way Avatars and Spirits work are the best way to fix Smn. Adding new Avatars will just patch up the old problems, but not fix them, and adding too much to the Smn would completely contridict the whole point of Smn.

[Kailea]

Originally Posted by Ziero

Actually you're missing the point of Smn. The Avatars are supposed to be the ones with all the power. the Smn is nothing but a vessle for the Avatars to flow through. The problem is many of the avatar's abilities are horribly misbalanced. They gain too little for the time restraints and MP consumption they have. Ifrit's Warcry should last a lot longer then 30 seconds (+1 per skill over cap) for the MP cost to use it. Hastega lasts half as long as the actual spell and most other buff type wards (Ramuh and Shiva specifically) are laughable at best. Things like that need to be fixed. And as Mal likes to constantly complain about, Smn need a better way to main heal then /whm. If the light Spirit, and all spirits to an extent, allowed some form of control, it would be possible to cast that, direct it like a Pup does to it's Maton, and main heal completely with your Spirit. But again, the unpredictability of a Spirit combined with the massive amount of MP it drains off you makes this method unsuable. Fixes to the way Avatars and Spirits work are the best way to fix Smn. Adding new Avatars will just patch up the old problems, but not fix them, and adding too much to the Smn would completely contridict the whole point of Smn.

not entirely imbalanced.... if hasteaga lasted as long as normal haste.... or if warcry lasted as long as the real one....... then THAT would be imbalanced

[Ziero]

Warcry does last as long as the normal Warcry, but the JA one doesn't use MP nor consume any kind of shared timer. Warcry is used mainly before WSs or to try and pull hate, these are two things a Smn wouldn't want to worry about. So if the effect lasted longer, at least a full minute, it would actually be far more useful.

[Armando]

Yeah, the real Warcry is only 30 secs which is why it's a weak ability in general. Doesn't provide enough of an Attack boost to justify that short duration. It's better than no Attack boost at all but it's still pretty weak. Kinda like the old Rampart.

[Malacite]

The Real Warcry IMO is nothing more than another provoke with a slight buff. At least that's how I view it.


And no Zierro, SMN does not have a natural SS/Blink. A "natural" ability implies it can be done at any time which was my point. Without an avatar (and pact timers) at the ready said SMN is a sitting duck.


And really, fuck this skill-over-the-cap nonsense. Why is summoning magic the only skill to work that way? Every other magic gains more effectiveness just by gaining more skill in it so why the hell is it that summoning magic skill has virtually no impact? Why is an avatars strength and perp cost determined purely by SMN level and not their magic skill?


I'm honestly flabbergasted at the lazy, piss poor job SE has done with SMN. It's like they hardly put any thought into it at all and it's not like it's the only job to have ever been in a similar situation either;

IIRC ranged attacks originally did not generate TP (RNG must have just loved that) THF didn't have TA, DRG being heavily dependent on it's 2 hour etc etc. We've all seen that the dev team is getting better and better so I'm just curious what the fucking hold up is already.



It might be interesting to note that our Dev team is the same group of people that made that god awful piece of shit Crono Cross >_ >

[Darkhound]

Some of the avatars abilities are indeed not good.

For example.. i find rolling thunder to be good but due to it short lasting time.. it makes little to no sense using it

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

We've all seen that the dev team is getting better and better so I'm just curious what the fucking hold up is already.

As I've said before - SMN is one of "those" jobs. Push it too far in one direction or the other and game balance could suffer. Same goes for NIN, RDM, BLM and SCH. There's no reason to aggressively buff these jobs, it has to be subtle. That is, unless you want the overkill of the original 2-Hander update or the RNG nerf to happen again.

That's why these jobs have been so low on the update list. They want to do it carefully. Perhaps that's why they took so long about fixing RNG - just look at the power it wielded before. By the time Velocity Shot was added, we were back to an acceptable power level. Doesn't really excuse the ranged formula being left broken for so long, but at least it all got there. There really isn't anything SE needs to do with RNG now.

But then there's all the other things they have to update, add and adjust about the game. When you look at how things improved for PLD over the years, and even DRG to an extent, its not so much to do with direct updates to those jobs as it is the situations around those jobs changed. Gear additions, Sanction/Sigil, buffs to other jobs even helped improve the situation for PLD such as the addition of Pianissimo for BRD and the availability of Aspir Samba under /DNC sub.

/SCH is the same way for SMN now, if the SMN chooses to use it. An adjustment made outside of SMN that directly impacts it they way SAM adjustments impacted DRG and other two-handers in a big way.

[Balfree]

Hey Malacite.

I liked Chrono Cross.

Shut yer mouth

[Yellow Mage]

Originally Posted by Kailea

if hasteaga lasted as long as normal haste....

It can at level 71+. Furthermore, it becomes much more efficient than the White Magic spell if it hits four people. And far too few utilize it in my own opinion . . .

Originally Posted by Malacite

And really, fuck this skill-over-the-cap nonsense. Why is summoning magic the only skill to work that way? Every other magic gains more effectiveness just by gaining more skill in it so why the hell is it that summoning magic skill has virtually no impact? Why is an avatars strength and perp cost determined purely by SMN level and not their magic skill?

It is as I have said, time and again: Blood Pacts are not Magic! That is the fundamental problem with Summoner and Summoning Magic Skill (again ignoring newbie unfriendliness). Maybe if they were actual Magic spells rather than Pet Abilities, they would have given Summoning Magic Skillups from the get-go, rather than having that having been implemented in a (fairly recent!) patch, and maybe Summoning Magic Skill would actually mean something when it isn't over cap from gear/merits, like all the other Magic skills do.

When I say give more power to the Summoners, I am in no way implying that their dependence on avatars should be abolished: that'd be stupid. I am saying change the way they interact with their avatars, rather than just adding more of them.

Back when Blood Pacts were separated into the "Ward" and "Rage" timers, every Summoner in Vana'diel acknowledged it as a step forward. But what if (ideally) each avatar gave the Summoner a unique sort of "spellbook," in which there were not two sets of spells abilities that cost MP, where only one ability within each set could be used every minute, but a list of Magic spells just like any other Mage has access to, with unique recast and casting times on each, and each affected by the Summoner's stats, with not the avatar's level, and certainly not skill over cap being the sole deciding factor for each.

Maybe they can put their second-highest base MND to use for the Wards and second-highest base INT for the Rages; it would sort of borrow from FFIII, in fact (which S-E said they likened FFXI to be the most like), as that game had each avatar with White Magic summons, Black Magic summons, and "High" Summons (Astral Flow for all practical purposes).

Really, if S-E can get this one overhauling done for Summoner (and, well, the newbie-accessible thing), adjusting the rest would be cake: they can adjust each avatar and Summoning Magic Spell on a case-by-case basis. But knowing S-E, they'll probably just give Summoners a "Resist Amnesia" Trait.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

SMN has already been given a rather generous overhaul in terms of newbie-friendliness, so much so that its almost insulting to the heritage of the job itself. You can quest all six celestials at 20, that's about as friendly as they can make it without making it too easy on SMNs.

Make it too easy and you hurt the spirit of the job. SMNs are supposed to endure trials to get where they want to go.

Not to mention there are two ways to get them, the mini-trials and the ones you can do at 60+ on other jobs. Fenrir and Diabolos shouldn't be easy to get at any rate, they're just fine they way the are.

Perhaps a new set of summons could follow different rules. Just to make an example, not all of the summons in FFIV were challenged and SMNs could summon certain mob types (ones BST cannot charm, anyway). Bombs, Flans, Fairies, etc.