[Amele]

Originally Posted by Yellow Mage

Part of me wishes I knew what the heck pDIF was, but the other part is living by the maxim "ignorance is bliss."
What depresses me is math is supposed to be my forte, and I can hardly understand what's going on here.

go wiki pDIF of the ffxiclopedia. you should be able to get up to speed pretty fast

[Yellow Mage]

Tried it a long time ago, and all I had were a bunch of numbers: no matter how hard I tried, I just couldn't put them within context with certainty.

[IfritnoItazura]

I'll take a stab at characterizing pDIF:

1. pDIF adjusts the damage of physical attack, based on the attacker's "Attack" rating and the target's "Defense" rating.
2. pDIF hasupper and lower caps; this means you cannot increase attack and defense indefinitely and keep getting higher or lower damage numbers.
3. pDIF has randomness as part of its function; unless at cap (max or min), it returns a range of values. (It used to be the upper cap still give randomness, but that seemed to have changed.)
4. On critical hits, pDIF value is raised by 1.0; hence players normally see higher damage on critical hits. (Note that this behavior is changed for two-handed weapons with the last update, under max cap condition.)

What pDIF is not:
pDIF is not the sole determining factor in amount of damage done. Other things, like STR, VIT, weapon damage/rank, physical defense reduction (% and set values) all come into play.

pDIF has nothing to do with accuracy; it is only used in potency of physical attack, which is a moot issue unless the player can hit the target in question.

[Legal Fish]

Here what I think the problems of the 2-hand change are:

1. The fact players are able to get so much out of their base stats(roughly 30 to 40 Atk or Acc at level 75) is quite crazy. This leads to several problems. a) it rewards players who do not make an effort to gear themselves up probably, basically giving them an ebody or two or three that doesn't take up any slots. b) it allows insane builds to work without problem: 10-20 accuracy in gear having very close to 95% accuracy, allowing them focus in haste, str/atk, and use str/atk food. Finally, it makes Zanshin and Zanshin gear absolutely useless.

2. The cRatio 3.0 cap allows DD, especially SAM(which was boosted the most), to get insane WS numbers without /THF.

3. 1-handers without dual wield were in just a bad position as 2-hand users were.

Here is what I wrote on my LJ on how they should fix situation: (a bit of a repeat of a previous post)

How they should fix 1-hand and 2-hand.

Okay, I talk about how I think the current setting(note: this is before SE readjusts it) is a problem. Now, the goal would be that players would use different jobs and different melee styles so that everyone gets to play, there is variety, and that more gear/content is/are experienced.

1. STR and DEX conversion (1=1)

I believe neither should count base stats.

If they do not, this remove the large problem of people just getting Attack and Accuracy(basically, Ebodies) thrown at them. This puts the focus back on gearing up for accuracy(and attack). So now, someone won't have a 15-25% higher hit rate just for being alive and holding something with two hands.

I imagine a 2-hand DD with pre-patch gear having... 10 to 30 DEX, that would be 10 to 30 Accuracy+, not 40 to 70 Accuracy+. (But this is a moot example as you'll see below, just showing the difference)

2. cRatio

2-hand cap: 2.5 (not 3)
2-hand critical cap: 3.0

This basically shortens the distance between 2-hand and 1-hand(with 2-hand still in the lead by quite a bit). It also gives more meaning to Critical hits(and Sneak Attack).

3. Splitting the STR and DEX conversation / Boosting 1-hand weapons

See 1-hand weapons rely too much on dual wield, that's been a problem almost as bad as 2-hand weapons not being able to keep up. With the "Base stats no longer count" in mind, I propose... (only counting stats from gear, merit, and JA or spell)

2-hand weapon: 1 STR = 1 Atk
1-hand weapon, when using a Round(size 2) shield or under and not holding another weapon: 1 DEX = 1 Acc

As you can see, the 1-hand bonus has quite a bit of limitations to get that bonus. Dual Wield does not become any stronger. Jobs like a BST and THF do, allowing their /WAR to excel over their /NIN, assuming they are built that way. Basically, Dual Wield would be for the "speed" option, while 1-hand alone would be for the people who want to focus on accuracy(while gearing up DEX). And finally, it plays on the whole "finesse" style you'd think someone who gears up for DEX would work like if the game was some kind of fantasy tabletop game.

I can't see an Axe being used in a very "finesse" manner and there is that somewhat useless spear polearm subtype... so let's be creative:

Axe 1-handed with a round shield or less and not dualwielding: 1 STR = 1 Atk
Spear(Polearm sub type, usually DRG/SAM/PLD/WAR or DRG/SAM): 1 DEX = 1 Acc

That would put some variety into the whole mix. And one last change for 1-handers.

3-5 new Buckler / Round Shields with decent melee stats would be added to fill the same role grips did(albeit less effective).

I can imagine Aspid getting a shield that would be on D-ring and Ridill level. Something like STR+10 DEX+10 Haste+10% THF/WAR/BST/PLD/DRK.

Finally, I think some adjustments should be made to RNG. While RNG remain great damage dealers, they could really use something to make up for the fact they are burning gil to do the same as everyone else. Maybe have it be a little damage based... and/or based on giving them something useful outside DDing and Shadowbind(I see a lot of potential in status effect arrows).

[Lmnop]

For the record, as a level 75 elvaan war/nin, my DEX is 68 before gear. That means I got +34 free acc just from this update. I was running last night with 76 total dex, and only +26 acc. A good portion of that Acc is because I have nothing better to wear in those slots. Boy do I wish I had that byrnie+1 now...


BRP: With those things implemented, we'd need a game better capable of telling people when certain things apply. That's a lot of case-by-case stuff for casual players to remember. To look on the AH and know that the lower delay spears have ridiculous acc (btw, I think that'd about kill Lances in what you'd save on acc gear), or to have some poor sap of a rdm who equips that one size 3 shield and suddenly they're missing non-stop. There are tons and tons of players who still aren't aware of RNG changes and just know "they got nerfed and now they suck." And last night I saw more war/nins with dual axes running around than I did Wars with Great axes. We don't all have character sheets that record pertinent information for us. If your idea was implemented (and I'm not saying it'd be a bad idea), I certainly would appreciate it if they expanded their help text all over the place. No more extremely slow scrolling, minimal text boxes. Whenever you select a dagger, an explanation window at the top saying "this weapon is incredibly accurate when nothing is in your other hand or only a light shield."

Problems with the actual ideas:
-No point to Dual Wield.
-PLDs still dont' get anything (that's both tanks down -- and no, I quite like the idea of a PLD with sword/board).
-Why all the reliance on small shields only? Particularly looking at the 1 handed axe thing. If a WAR uses a size 3 shield, he's likely already sac'd offensive shield benefits (unless there's some size 3s/4s with nice offensive stats that I'm forgetting) and he needs all the help he can get.

[WishMaster3K]

Wait... So the Byrnie is mosre useful than the Haubergeon now?

Edit:
Ok, just looked at the wiki

Wow, it gives +30 Attack..

So I guess there are certain instances where you don't need excessive ACC anymore, and especiall on VTs at 75..

[Lmnop]

How's this:

I used to exp with +50 acc and on trolls I'd pull 84-87% acc with meat dishes and Aggressor up 60% of the time (+25 acc). Also, parsers see 0 damage as misses, so my acc was actually higher than that (stoneskin).

With just my +26 post update, I "should" average ~92% hit rate on them.

Call a GM on any 2 hander using sushi in a party.

[LyonheartLakshmi]

Originally Posted by Lmnop

Call a GM on any 2 hander using sushi in a party.

I actually partied with a DRK/SAM the other night who was eating Sole Sushi. Yes, this was post-update.

I'm guessing he was skilling up his GSword. We'll probably see a lot of DRKs who only have either Scythe or GSword skilled up, and now they'll eat sushi to skill up the other in exp parties.

Originally Posted by WishMaster3K

Wait... So the Byrnie is mosre useful than the Haubergeon now?

Edit:
Ok, just looked at the wiki

Wow, it gives +30 Attack..

So I guess there are certain instances where you don't need excessive ACC anymore, and especiall on VTs at 75..

A fair comparison would be NQ Hauby to NQ Byrnie, and HQ Hauby to HQ Byrnie.

NQ Hauby: +15 attack, +15 accuracy, +5 STR, +5 DEX
NQ Byrnie: +23 attack, -3 acc, +3 STR, -3 DEX

HQ Hauby: +18 attack, +18 accuracy, +6 STR, +6 DEX
HQ Byrnie: +30 attack, -3 acc, +5 STR, -3 DEX

The gap is smaller, but I'd still give the nod to Hauby over Byrnie. The only way I would see Byrnie being better in a build is if you need absolutely 0 accuracy from gear. Otherwise, you're trading away 8 DEX, 2 STR and 18 accuracy to get just 8 attack (or in the case of HQ, trading away 9 DEX, 1 STR and 21 accuracy to get just 12 attack).

Ignoring STR and DEX, if you're looking at just the trade off between accuracy and attack, switching other slots would probably yield better results. Hauby + Swordbelt +1 is better than Byrnie + Lifebelt, stuff like that.

[Armando]

Whew. Sorry for taking this long to reply, was quite busy yesterday. I see what you're saying now, Amele. If that's so, then you're right in that one-handers lost damage at high Attack. Minor aside, is it even possible to get past a cRatio of 1.666 in a merit party under normal circumstances?

Either way I'm going to try to find some time today to do a bit of testing of my own. I haven't been able to log in at all since even before the patch, so I need to see all this for myself.

[Legal Fish]

BRP: With those things implemented, we'd need a game better capable of telling people when certain things apply. That's a lot of case-by-case stuff for casual players to remember...

I don't seeing it being that complex... if people can't remember something simple like that... hmmm, I wonder if they have a problem with Skillchains?

-No point to Dual Wield.

I would have to disagree with you on that one. Do remember, I'm getting rid of it applying to base stats, this drops a huge advantage. WARs(and NINs) were able to get close to 95% accuracy while dual-wielding. The haste granted from Dual-wielding is still extremely effective and so is the extra hit on WSes. All it does is open up options.

For a better comparison THF using daggers.

Let's say we are talking about a THF's pre-patch DoT build. He has 10 to 30 DEX + in gear. That's 10 to 30 Accuracy if he is 1-handing. Now let's compare that to Dual Wield in which he can get roughly 9% or more haste and an extra hit on WSes? Now add in the fact he can have a weapon with +Acc(and +atk, etc) in his second hand slot... sounds like a pretty fair deal.

-PLDs still dont' get anything (that's both tanks down -- and no, I quite like the idea of a PLD with sword/board).

Well, it's a DD change, but PLDs would still benefit slightly. PLDs are able to DD and when they do so, being stuck with a buckler or round does not matter to say the least. However, I don't think any amount of their DEX gear would be able to make them switch from Joy/Justice dual wield combo.

-Why all the reliance on small shields only? Particularly looking at the 1 handed axe thing. If a WAR uses a size 3 shield, he's likely already sac'd offensive shield benefits (unless there's some size 3s/4s with nice offensive stats that I'm forgetting) and he needs all the help he can get.

Uh, I see Buckler and Round being meant almost completely for jobs outside tanking. Kite and tower shields are largely PLD/DRK. After getting access to kite shields, PLDs largely ignore bucklers and rounds. If a WAR was using a kite shield or higher, he's obviously doing some kind of tanking, which shouldn't be the object of DD. Uh finally, that big blocky thing kind of kills the flavor of "finesse".

[Lmnop]

Originally Posted by Legal Fish

I don't seeing it being that complex... if people can't remember something simple like that... hmmm, I wonder if they have a problem with Skillchains?

Skillchains follow a flow. You map them out, you make charts of them. People print them out.

This is just words. Facts to remember. Obviously I suck at explaining my point. I think you've said before that you play D&D, right? I'm going to pretend that you do so I can make a comparison. All your ideas remind me of the Monk ability to add Wisdom to AC. Thing is, that's a trait of monks. Only people who have to remember that is Monks who have the ability. It's not like just anyone can take off their armor and suddenly get Wisdom added. It's far too complex to put into the game.

Regardless, I wouldn't mind assuming there's easy-to-access in-game data about it. As is, I still want there to be some indicator to a new player that firing the bow from melee will be different than firing from a range.

I would have to disagree with you on that one. Do remember, I'm getting rid of it applying to base stats, this drops a huge advantage.

Duly noted. This affects a great deal of my outlook. Though the only problem I have with this is consistency. STR is STR. To say STR gear has the effect and not base stats creates quite the conundrum. Thieves have high base DEX but because WARs have Byakko's Haidate, they end up with higher accuracy when given the same overall dex score? I'm just not keen on the idea of one bit of DEX being worth more than another.

Uh, I see Buckler and Round being meant almost completely for jobs outside tanking. Kite and tower shields are largely PLD/DRK. After getting access to kite shields, PLDs largely ignore bucklers and rounds. If a WAR was using a kite shield or higher, he's obviously doing some kind of tanking, which shouldn't be the object of DD.

Why don't Warriors meat tank? Aside from Defense being borderline broken, and Warriors having no unique methods of mitigating damage... if a Warrior gears himself for defense, he cannot hold hate the way a PLD or even NIN can. If he gears for offense, he gets hit too hard. If he's using a shield, he's obviously meat tanking and can use every bit that he can get. I guess I see in your design a window to help alleviate that problem. But instead, you want to widen the gulf.

Finally:

Uh finally, that big blocky thing kind of kills the flavor of "finesse".

Originally Posted by BRP

I can't see an Axe being used in a very "finesse" manner

You said it best. Don't think of it like finesse, think of it like Olympic discus. Except you're not throwing, you're swinging. And it's not a stupid disc. It's an axe. I could come up with a couple other ways to role play it if I really felt like geeking out.

[Armando]

Ok. After a lot of dead Demon Pawns, I have to say that Amele is right about what's going on with PDIF. I'm guessing it'll get fixed along with two-handed weapon damage.

[Legal Fish]

Regardless, I wouldn't mind assuming there's easy-to-access in-game data about it. As is, I still want there to be some indicator to a new player that firing the bow from melee will be different than firing from a range.

I don't see any reason why there wouldn't be some indication of weapon stat bonuses. Then again, a player wouldn't be anymore clueless than he is now. To my knowledge most players in the game don't understand a deal combat formulas beyond "INT = damage", "Attack vs Defense", "Accuracy vs Evasion", and "THFs are a bitch to hit". I can't see how adjusting it a bit could really confuse the ones who do understand them a bit more.

Duly noted. This affects a great deal of my outlook. Though the only problem I have with this is consistency. STR is STR. To say STR gear has the effect and not base stats creates quite the conundrum. Thieves have high base DEX but because WARs have Byakko's Haidate, they end up with higher accuracy when given the same overall dex score? I'm just not keen on the idea of one bit of DEX being worth more than another.

You could think of it being similar to bonuses only received when you push over the cap, like SMN. You can consider it that, after a point(your base stat) the Accuracy(or Attack) returns from having DEX(or STR) increases. In the end, THF still benefits from having a bit more accuracy(and Crit rate) when a (Sword, Club, or Dagger) WAR and himself have the same amount of DEX bonus.

Why don't Warriors meat tank? Aside from Defense being borderline broken, and Warriors having no unique methods of mitigating damage... if a Warrior gears himself for defense, he cannot hold hate the way a PLD or even NIN can.

Hmmm, that's really up for discussion, but not for today. I'd say it's possible for WAR to meat tank under certain conditions and that his weakness would be Damage mitigation, not hate building. WAR has some incredible amounts of enmity+ from their Artifact set and some of the best hate generation in the game.

I guess I see in your design a window to help alleviate that problem. But instead, you want to widen the gulf.

I don't think I'm making it any more difficult for a WAR to tank, I'm not even touching it. A WAR would tank as well as he would now. A PLD doesn't get the bonus either unless he also Round or Buckler. So unless you mean a WAR meat tank vs a 1-weapon NIN(which may or may not be optimal)... I don't see entirely what you mean.

[Amele]

Originally Posted by Armando

Whew. Sorry for taking this long to reply, was quite busy yesterday. I see what you're saying now, Amele. If that's so, then you're right in that one-handers lost damage at high Attack. Minor aside, is it even possible to get past a cRatio of 1.666 in a merit party under normal circumstances?
Either way I'm going to try to find some time today to do a bit of testing of my own. I haven't been able to log in at all since even before the patch, so I need to see all this for myself.

the people it affects most are those with near-peak gear on monk and warrior, peak(to an extent, most ninja eat sushi forever and max haste at the expense of attack) ninja and well geared warriors during berserk.

again, it's hard to characterize how the function is behaving in the range above 1.667 and below ~2.3 we *don't really know* what's going on because no one has made a rigorous test of it yet (to my knowledge)

Originally Posted by IfritnoItazura

I'll take a stab at characterizing pDIF:

1. pDIF adjusts the damage of physical attack, based on the attacker's "Attack" rating and the target's "Defense" rating.
2. pDIF hasupper and lower caps; this means you cannot increase attack and defense indefinitely and keep getting higher or lower damage numbers.
3. pDIF has randomness as part of its function; unless at cap (max or min), it returns a range of values. (It used to be the upper cap still give randomness, but that seemed to have changed.)
4. On critical hits, pDIF value is raised by 1.0; hence players normally see higher damage on critical hits. (Note that this behavior is changed for two-handed weapons with the last update, under max cap condition.)

What pDIF is not:
pDIF is not the sole determining factor in amount of damage done. Other things, like STR, VIT, weapon damage/rank, physical defense reduction (% and set values) all come into play.

pDIF has nothing to do with accuracy; it is only used in potency of physical attack, which is a moot issue unless the player can hit the target in question.

this is pretty close. there's some corner cases that aren't in it (obviously, I'm sure you know this) but for a high level overview of how pDIF matters, this is perfect.

[Zempten]

Did anyone else see that maintaince for Sept 5? Is the fix comming earliar then expected?