[BurningPanther]

It's inaccurate to take the measure of jobs seeking at just one particular time, do it ten times over the next seven days, and we will have a more accurate measure. But for the sake of argument....

... Sooo roughly 10% of the player population actively plays WHM at any given time. Consider those playing the job just to get merits, those playing the job up for their linkshell or a favor to buddies, and yes, the many more /anon just using the job for whatever they leveled it up for.

Even assuming they are all dedicated WHMs, that's 10% against the other 90% of the server? What good does that 10% seeking do?

At any rate, it still doesn't address the issue that while WHM is a damned good healer, it's ill-iftted in the current trend of rapid kills and rapid exp gain, when pitted against a RDM. There can be a hundred WHM seeking, a hundred WHM that will likely only get an invite because all the RDM or BRD are already spoken for.

[IfritnoItazura]

Originally Posted by BurningPanther

It's inaccurate to take the measure of jobs seeking at just one particular time, do it ten times over the next seven days, and we will have a more accurate measure. But for the sake of argument....

Getting tired of this. All I wanted to do with /sea test was show how one can do a quick sanity check on whether my straight forward interpretation of S-E's data is way of the mark or not.

You don't approve of S-E's stat gathering methodology? Fine.

But, if you think your personal opinion of how popular WHM should be is more likely to be correct than S-E's population data gathered over a week long period, I have to call you narrowly self-centered.

Why keep inventing more and more convoluted reasons for why WHM can't be popular, when there are evidences point to high percentage of people on the job?

Love it or not, they are on WHM, and they would be competing for the same party slots if there are fewer parties than WHM's wanting them. That's all I meant...

Edit:

The WHM derail, in a nutshell...

Malacite:
- S-E made empty promise regarding improving WHM.

Itazura:
- No it didn't. WHM as is, is not broken.

Omgwtfbbqkitten:
- The problem is that WHM isn't invited as much now.

Itazura:
- It's not that bad of a problem; they are getting invites, from what I can see.

Malacite:
- RDM can heal just as [well] as WHM can, and edge out WHM with Refresh and Convert.

Itazura:
- S-E didn't say WHM should be better at "sustained" cure botting.

BurningPanther:
- Problem remains. (Not sure what he meant... Maybe he wants every party to have a WHM?)

Omgwtfbbqkitten:
- RDM is taking most of the invites.

Malacite:
- (Still confusing sustained healing with what S-E actually said.)

Itazura:
- Acknowledged (again) that RDM can fill the healer spot, but it's not problem enough to warren (further) WHM changes.
- Raises the possibility part of some WHM's trouble in seeking comes from high number of WHM in the game competing for the exact spot in the party.

Omgwtfbbqkitten:
- Not all WHM take job to Lv.75. (OK... so?)
- Says WHM is an unappealing job. (which I took to imply not many people play WHM.)

Malacite:
- (Apparently meant that parties will always invite RDM and not invite WHM when they have RDM.)

Silent Howler:
- RDM's existence is what's wrong with WHM.

BurningPanther:
- RDM is a capable healer.

Itazura:
- (Bit on BBQ's bait, and) Explained why the BBQ's reasoning for saying Census data was bad didn't hold water.
- Again, reiterate that high number of WHM's means they potentially compete for the same spot in the party.

BurningPanther:
- Itazura's example was just a snap shot in time! (Which I already preemptively acknowledged.)
- WHM is ill fitted to the current trend. (Which I take to mean they aren't getting parties.)

Itazura:
- (Tired... Probably just babbling now.)

* * *

There you go, for the people who don't want to go back two pages. (Not that I blame you.)

[Legal Fish]

The cap I was talking about does not have to be the current cap of WHM, like SMN. It could work more like BRD, where the cap is based on the level the spell is learned.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Originally Posted by IfritnoItazura

/sigh
Just because you have a notion in your head, it doesn't mean it's right (or wrong); evidence is a good thing to have.

On Ifrit, at about 10:40 p.m. PDT:

/sea all 5-74:____ 1250 (100%)
/sea all 5-74 WHM:_ 139 11.1%
/sea all 5-74 RDM:_ 118 09.4%
/sea all 5-74 WAR:_ 119 09.5%
/sea all 5-74 MNK:__ 87 07.0%

Yes, it doesn't cover /anon people, but it should be a good indication that WHM is about 11.1% of the population at that point in time--hardly an unpopular job.

Stop taking literal numbers and trying to pass them off as reality.

Do you know how many WHMs have quit and are passed on as accounts to others? I can tell you a Titan BST that 4 out of 5 BSTs I see soloing are really just PLing themselves with a WHM they're dual boxing. Pisses me off to no end when I see it, but right there is a "WHM" that's not really an active WHM, just a tool. In my LS, we have a WHM who's off at school and one of our members has access to his account often and dual boxes it for NM camping and farming.

I should also mention that when this WHM does actually play, its no longer his Taru WHM, but his Galka DRG. Guess it got boring, eh?

You're also still assuming that below 5 is the cut-off for not being a mule. There are WHMs that are levelled as a means telewhore and accrue Imperial Standing in Besieged and nothing but. RNGs levelled to 30ish for WSing Tiamat in Attowah Chasm. Are RDMs any exception to this? Definately not.

And as BurningPanther pointed out, then you have the people who level jobs as an HNM tool and nothing more. BRD, RDM, WHM, BLM, PLD, NIN - pick one. What do these people play when they're not these jobs? DRK, BLU, THF, DRG, MNK, WAR - pick one.

And are merits any exception? RDM, BRD, NIN, WAR, MNK - these jobs have become a means so an end if there ever was one. I know people who pick these jobs up because they don't want to spend hours alone merriting thier BLM or seeking as a melee. I know people that play BRD and RDM to merit the WHM.

You can look at numbers or you can look at the trends that really influence the game. Both will tell you different tales.

[BurningPanther]

Originally Posted by IfritnoItazura

Getting tired of this. All I wanted to do with /sea test was show how one can do a quick sanity check on whether my straight forward interpretation of S-E's data is way of the mark or not.
You don't approve of S-E's stat gathering methodology? Fine.
But, if you think your personal opinion of how popular WHM should be is more likely to be correct than S-E's population data gathered over a week long period, I have to call you narrowly self-centered.
Why keep inventing more and more convoluted reasons for why WHM can't be popular, when there are evidences point to high percentage of people on the job?
Love it or not, they are on WHM, and they would be competing for the same party slots if there are fewer parties than WHM's wanting them. That's all I meant...
Edit:

The WHM derail, in a nutshell...

Malacite:
- S-E made empty promise regarding improving WHM.
Itazura:
- No it didn't. WHM as is, is not broken.
Omgwtfbbqkitten:
- The problem is that WHM isn't invited as much now.
Itazura:
- It's not that bad of a problem; they are getting invites, from what I can see.
Malacite:
- RDM can heal just as [well] as WHM can, and edge out WHM with Refresh and Convert.
Itazura:
- S-E didn't say WHM should be better at "sustained" cure botting.
BurningPanther:
- Problem remains. (Not sure what he meant... Maybe he wants every party to have a WHM?)
Omgwtfbbqkitten:
- RDM is taking most of the invites.
Malacite:
- (Still confusing sustained healing with what S-E actually said.)
Itazura:
- Acknowledged (again) that RDM can fill the healer spot, but it's not problem enough to warren (further) WHM changes.
- Raises the possibility part of some WHM's trouble in seeking comes from high number of WHM in the game competing for the exact spot in the party.
Omgwtfbbqkitten:
- Not all WHM take job to Lv.75. (OK... so?)
- Says WHM is an unappealing job. (which I took to imply not many people play WHM.)
Malacite:
- (Apparently meant that parties will always invite RDM and not invite WHM when they have RDM.)
Silent Howler:
- RDM's existence is what's wrong with WHM.
BurningPanther:
- RDM is a capable healer.
Itazura:
- (Bit on BBQ's bait, and) Explained why the BBQ's reasoning for saying Census data was bad didn't hold water.
- Again, reiterate that high number of WHM's means they potentially compete for the same spot in the party.
BurningPanther:
- Itazura's example was just a snap shot in time! (Which I already preemptively acknowledged.)
- WHM is ill fitted to the current trend. (Which I take to mean they aren't getting parties.)
Itazura:
- (Tired... Probably just babbling now.)
* * *
There you go, for the people who don't want to go back two pages. (Not that I blame you.)

Not that I disapprove of S-E census-taking skills, but their interpretation of the data leaves much to be desired. Coming from a purely objective angle, it's easy to conclude that, because WHM occupies so much of the pie chart, it might be more popular than other jobs.

But we play the game as the other commoners do, and we know better.

We know that from one to 75, there is a vast shortage of healers, support, and tanks. We know that at any given time, it's hell trying to find a WHM for your party.
We know there is an exclusionist pattern in the game, and for some people to see the merits/gear they want on their favorite job, some will level up a more desirable job to get those things. We know that, once they've used these "mule jobs" to get what they want, they often shelve these jobs.

I don't believe there is any reason why WHM can't be popular, but I'm certainly not ignorant to the fact that it isn't popular.

In the strictest sense, perhaps you're right. It is high demand in events, making it popular. People level it, but make no mistake, it's not because everyone likes main healing, and this is what I'm getting at. If the numbers spoke as honestly as you keep saying they do, no one should ever have issues finding a WHM. But they do.

However, I see what you are getting at, but you really made my point for me:

Originally Posted by Itazura

Love it or not, they are on WHM, and they would be competing for the same party slots if there are fewer parties than WHM's wanting them. That's all I meant...

Why are fewer parties wanting them?

You said that job preference wasn't enough to warrant a second look a Healing skill or WHM, and I'm telling you it is. You are right about one thing, of course a WHM is gonna get invites... after the RDM and BRD are all taken. The fact that the specialist in main healing takes a back seat to healing support in ANY instance is a major balance issue, and it should be addressed.

[IfritnoItazura]

Don't. Care. Why. They. Leveled. WHM. I've no intention of dissecting why people are on WHM at the moment or why it's their highest job, beyond a vague "Somebody must enjoy the healer role."

If there are enough of them leveling WHM, they are potentially competing for the same party slots. That's all there is to it.

The issues I care about are "Why WHM don't feel like they are getting invites enough?" and "Does the actual invite rate indicate a problem with WHM the job itself?"

If, say, between Lv.50-70, there are 10 WHM's in party, and 3 seeking, and 13 NIN's in party, and 4 seeking, then things don't look so bad for WHM's at the moment.

Occam's razor. Don't make convoluted reasons why most WHM's aren't really WHM's; the simplest explanation for seeing more WHM in party than seeking is that WHM is relatively welcomed in parties.

Data I see at the moment indicates WHM has no great trouble getting parties, at least in the pre-merit levels. Do your own searches on your own servers if you think the snapshot I used is some kind of anomaly, and not representative of what's typical. /shrug

* * *

Stop taking your personal experiences and try to pass them off as reality for most people. (At least, not without a proper survey study--Here, quiz me: "How many people do you know who quit the game but left behind a high level WHM for friends to use?" "Personally known? Zero. But, a friend of my sister's friend did that, I think.")

* * *
Edit:

Originally Posted by BurningPanther

You are right about one thing, of course a WHM is gonna get invites... after the RDM and BRD are all taken. The fact that the specialist in main healing takes a back seat to healing support in ANY instance is a major balance issue, and it should be addressed.

OK... I'll bite: Why is that "... the specialist in main healing takes a back seat to healing support in ANY instance is a major balance issue"? Especially when it's not enough of an obstacle to prevent WHM getting parties (pre-merit)*?

Why would preferring WHM over RDM or BRD make the game less broken? How often does BRD get the "healer" spot anyway?


* I would have done some poking around with Lv.75 population, but there are so many, /seach doesn't return all the results. I'm too lazy to go step Lv.72-74 individually, either.

[Silent Howler]

Originally Posted by IfritnoItazura

Silent Howler:
- RDM's existence is what's wrong with WHM.

Uh, I wouldn't exactly put it that way. Maybe I should edit my post again. I have no problem with RDM being in the game. It's just they have a bit higher potential that puts them above WHM. And S-E wants WHM to be #1 when it comes to healing. So if they want to fix the problem they created, they need to make some changes to one or both jobs.