[Sevv]

I would and will laugh if S-E gives you all windower and you chose to not use it for the sole reason of you want to see someone else's tp. Because it would be funny that you would continue to use 3rd party tools and then get busted over it because you were too lazy to use <tp> macros. Its not because i "follow" the rules, it because you had an opertunity to take what s-e didnt have to give you but they realised a good % of PC players use windower, so they decided to give you an "offical" one so you wouldnt be breaking the TOS and have plug-ins to unbalance game play. When i see stupidty i laugh.

Personally i have no problem with people who use windower, because that is like 95% of PC players I know. And a great deal of them also use other 3rd party tools or plug-ins to enhance game play, do i think you should get banned because you just have windower no, but will i show compassion you got caught? No because you broke the rules and you have to suffer the penalties. Hell lol i got a 72 hr suspension because the whm afked and i pulled a link which killed her. What did the gm say? "Even tho it truely looked like an accident, The White Mage didnt not want to die so you are going to be suspended". Did i go out and hunt that whm down? Nope. Did i think it was unfair? Yes. Did i take it like a man because it was a TOS breach? Yup.

[Clever Ninja]

Originally Posted by aozora

Ah, um... no?

At this point, I'm just trying to frame a philosophical discussion to get some insight into those with (varying degrees of) authoritarian values. Why people would enjoy public executions, as it were.

I apologize if my argument is unclear, or all over the place... I'm just kinda brainstorming.

Pragmatically, sure, there are rules. There are penalties. It makes more sense to try and avoid those penalties by following the rules.

But that's a different ball of wax than "I follow rules, punish those that don't so that I may laugh at them." That's almost, well, sadistic.

Anyway, using third party stuff is a just an easy, concrete example of this. As long as you are not, again, f*ing someone over, it's a minor infraction.

So, I gave an example of a system with looser rule set (WoWs addon scheme) where using them wouldn't be breaking rules, and that didn't go over too well, either.

I'm at a loss.

It's not sadistic. If the majority are following the rules, and your not, your gaining an unfair advantage. Fact is this game is on 3 platforms, and the PS2 and 360 players DO NOT have the option of using 3rd party stuff. It doesn't matter if your not fing someone over, you have an unfair advantage against those players, so it's illegal to SE, and since its their game, their servers and their data, they can make up whatever rules they please. As I've said before in other topics, you don't OWN anything in this game. Your paying a monthly fee to use a character to gather exp and items, but everything is owned by SE.

And SE has yet to ban for Windower and the small plugins alone though, since I'm sure they realize the flaw of having the game crash whenever a random popup appears.

The WoW comment is a moot point. This isn't WoW, this is FFXI. Blizzard allows addons to be used to customize the UI, SE doesn't because you can't get it on to the other platforms without having the addons being released by SE themselves.

And how other people view the rules is a moot point also. As mentioned, we own nothing in this game. We pay to rent a character and do tasks that SE permits for fun. So whatever SE sets as rules is the final word. You can be as philosophical as you want, until you own a major part of SE you won't change that(which you won't). If you don't wish to abide by THEIR rules for THEIR game, you can go to other games with rules that are to your liking. This isn't the only MMO in the world. Call it arrogant all you want, only one looking arrogant is you because your making yourself look like you deserve to be exempt from the loop because you choose to 'think' differently, yet in the end your doing NOTHING except thinking.

[Sevv]

Originally Posted by Clever Ninja

We pay to rent a character and do tasks that SE permits for fun. So whatever SE sets as rules is the final word.

this made me die a little inside, so true tho

[aozora]

Originally Posted by Aksannyi

Let me clarify, that I'm not saying I would /cheer if everyone who uses Windower were banned. That encompasses at least half of my friends, and also my husband. But I'm not sure I would feel very sympathetic toward them, considering they knew it was against the rules.

It's like driving on the highway. We know it's illegal to go 85 mph. I might warn you to slow down, tell you it's unsafe, and you'll get a huge fine if you get pulled over, but other than that there is nothing I can do to get you to slow down. So if you get pulled over, I'm not going to be all like, "Yes! Woo hoo! That'll teach you!" But I would definitely feel like you deserved it and I wouldn't really feel any sympathy towards you, because you knew you were breaking the law and you did it anyway.

This makes sense.

[aozora]

Originally Posted by SevIfrit

this made me die a little inside, so true tho

The idea that you have no stake in something you've put so much effort into is a bit disheartening, yes.

But I guess that's still A-OK.

[Sevv]

Tho truely its not the charcater its the friends i play with that, made this game so fun.

[Murphie]

Originally Posted by aozora

The idea that you have no stake in something you've put so much effort into is a bit disheartening, yes.

But I guess that's still A-OK.

It has to be. Because no matter how much you may wish it to be otherwise, the fact remains that you don't have any rights to that character beyond what SE allows you.

[Theyaden]

Sorry couldn't resist he's a link of stuff on the virtual property debate. If you have a few hours to burn there's a few amusing items. There aren't a lot of legal precidents yet for how much the player owns vs company, but pleanty of people willing to fight it out ^^ Maybe in another 5 years courtcases or legistaltions will define how to dispose to virtual property http://gamepolitics.livejournal.com/tag/mmo

[aozora]

Originally Posted by Clever Ninja

It's not sadistic. If the majority are following the rules, and your not, your gaining an unfair advantage. Fact is this game is on 3 platforms, and the PS2 and 360 players DO NOT have the option of using 3rd party stuff. It doesn't matter if your not fing someone over, you have an unfair advantage against those players, so it's illegal to SE, and since its their game, their servers and their data, they can make up whatever rules they please. As I've said before in other topics, you don't OWN anything in this game. Your paying a monthly fee to use a character to gather exp and items, but everything is owned by SE.

And SE has yet to ban for Windower and the small plugins alone though, since I'm sure they realize the flaw of having the game crash whenever a random popup appears.

The WoW comment is a moot point. This isn't WoW, this is FFXI. Blizzard allows addons to be used to customize the UI, SE doesn't because you can't get it on to the other platforms without having the addons being released by SE themselves.

And how other people view the rules is a moot point also. As mentioned, we own nothing in this game. We pay to rent a character and do tasks that SE permits for fun. So whatever SE sets as rules is the final word. You can be as philosophical as you want, until you own a major part of SE you won't change that(which you won't). If you don't wish to abide by THEIR rules for THEIR game, you can go to other games with rules that are to your liking. This isn't the only MMO in the world. Call it arrogant all you want, only one looking arrogant is you because your making yourself look like you deserve to be exempt from the loop because you choose to 'think' differently, yet in the end your doing NOTHING except thinking.

Thanks for the well thought out post. I'm a bit strapped for time here at work, but I'll blurt out what I can here.

* The glee in seeing other punished is what would be sadistic, not the punishment itself, nor merely feeling unsympathetic. The feeling of vast superiority over those wretched cheaters. That's what worries me. Sorry if I was unclear.

* IP ownership is a seperate (but related) topic, but yes, it is their ball, and they can take it away if they want. I know.

* WoW is moot only if you care to disregard the success of the title, in that their model was so terribly successful. Many many people voted for WoW with their wallets. And that is where we DO have a say, and you noted. One of the main factors that is attributed to the success is the lack of restrictions... newb friendly, individualists like it, etc., etc.

Maybe it makes more sense overall, is all I'm saying.

Maybe not.

[Ziero]

Originally Posted by aozora

The idea that you have no stake in something you've put so much effort into is a bit disheartening, yes.
But I guess that's still A-OK.

Yup, it's 100% A-OK and I'm thankful SE has put so much effort into allowing me to enjoy what little I am able to get from this game. They're the ones who created, own, operate, maintain, update, and regulate *EVERYTHING* in FFXI, we're just paying to enjoy the work that they've put in. But we are able to enjoy that work, that effort and creativity they express as long as we are able to cooperate with them and abide by their rules. They have the full right, at any time, without reason, to remove me, you and every single person from this game and there is not a damn thing any of us can do about it. As long as we want to play this game, they hold all the cards and can do to us whatever they damn well please.

Now here's the kicker, despite having all the power in this game they try damn hard not to abuse it or us. They WANT us happy and they want us to play this game, but they want us all to play on the most level playing field they could possibly make. Being an 'independent thinker', which you desperately seem want to appear as, is all well and good in an unjust society or unfair situation. But this game is not one of those situations. We all started in this game as equals, we all start with the same things and build ourselves within the game. But when we use external tools to build our ingame selves up, which includes 'minor' things like tp pt and the like, then we're unleveling the playing field and going against SE's terms. SE isn't some big evil that's treating us poorly, hell the fact they're adding a windower to please *US* shows that, so I see no reason to spit in their face and break their rules.

We as players show our support by paying our fees and following their rules, we show our disdain by canceling accounts and leaving the game. But to pay their fees, claim we agree with their rules, then break them after they give us something we ask for is just damn rude. If you really want a customizable UI then it's best to do things through the official methods, you ask. With enough community support it will be added, just like the vast majority of other things we the player base have requested and recieved. I could easily burn through a laundry lists of what these items were, but if people forgot all that stuff already then I don't think it's worth repeating.

[Sevv]

Well put Ziero (^.^)b

[tazirai]

Originally Posted by SevIfrit

Tho truely its not the charcater its the friends i play with that, made this game so fun.

Werd! If it wasnt for the IMT and Silent Line guys i've been with for the past 5 years, I woulda been gone. But it feels good to online and do things with them.

[aozora]

Originally Posted by Ziero

We as players show our support by paying our fees and following their rules, we show our disdain by canceling accounts and leaving the game. But to pay their fees, claim we agree with their rules, then break them after they give us something we ask for is just damn rude.

Oh, you don't like theory, I see that. Let's be pragmatic. The purchaser holds the power in a vendor relationship if he has half a brain.

If you were to purchase for a technology for your company, and they tell you "Have the vendor to throw this extra thing in and we will award them the contract," would that be rude?

Because, I'll tell you, we do that.

Or to re-negotiate an existing contract? Is it rude to go "Look, we have a contract with you, but xyz company down the street offers a similar product with value added features, what can you do to match them?"

Because that we do that, too.

In this case, there is complete vendor lock, the purchaser has ... well, nothing... and you agree with this model? Moreover, you support it. I mean, you almost said we should thank SE for letting people pay to play them!

And you wonder why I'm curious? Brand loyalty like this is extremely hard to come by...

[Murphie]

He made it rather clear that you do have options. You can either pay and play by the rules, or not pay and take your business elsewhere.

I'm not sure where all this philosophical nonsense is coming from. There is no need to throw yourself upon the gears and the levers. This is just an MMO, for crying out loud. The rules are clearly stated, and you have the choice not to agree to them. However, by making that choice, you forfeit the right to play. It's really rather simple.

[Sevv]

Originally Posted by aozora

Oh, you don't like theory, I see that. Let's be pragmatic. The purchaser holds the power in a vendor relationship if he has half a brain.
If you were to purchase for a technology for your company, and they tell you "Have the vendor to throw this extra thing in and we will award them the contract," would that be rude?
Because, I'll tell you, we do that.
Or to re-negotiate an existing contract? Is it rude to go "Look, we have a contract with you, but xyz company down the street offers a similar product with value added features, what can you do to match them?"
Because that we do that, too.
In this case, there is complete vendor lock, the purchaser has ... well, nothing... and you agree with this model? Moreover, you support it. I mean, you almost said we should thank SE for letting people pay to play them!
And you wonder why I'm curious? Brand loyalty like this is extremely hard to come by...

I think you missed his point there Aozora.

S-E wants our feedback to improve the game play it not like anyone is saying that S-E is ignoring us so we had to go to our own souraces to get things done. Ziero was stating that it is rude to after you all begged for windower to become a legal gaming asset, that you now walk around not just you but many walk around saying: "Oh ya S-E is releasing windower thats cool but im not usuing it i want my plug-ins." If S-E had deemed those plug-ins to not change the equality in game play they will be in thier windower. But the sad fact your not grasping is that they do change the equilty in game play.

If you want your comment that people choose to play on ps2/xbox 360 to just go out and buy a computer i dont think you understand everyone just has tons of money to blow. My job grants me a free work computer, but i cant upload ffxi onto it even tho i do work with s-e reps. If your willing to shell out the money irl to every ps2 and 360 player around ill drop a memo to the s-e reps, until then your arguement of it being a fair and equal playing field is flawed stop looking at being a lazy gamer and crying for more maybe go to the boards: http://www.ffxionline.com/forums/ask...questions-400/
make a suggestion to add the update to s-e then saying why dont people understand i want these and im going to use them and you should understand.

Cold hard fact about this is : Your Cheating by usuing them