[aozora]

Originally Posted by eticket109

Most laws and values are purely based off of what people felt were 'right' and 'wrong' at the time they were written. Its unfortunate when such laws go against ones beliefs. It is amazing when you think about how the United States is praised for its diversity in beliefs and cultures, yet is governed through some of the narrowest visions of those beliefs.

I agree :\

[Aksannyi]

I understand what you are saying aozora, and while I might find something like some of the plugins useful, the fact of the matter is, I'm not planning to do anything to give anyone any cause to ban me, after all the hard work I've done with my character.

If the extra plugins were, in fact, made into a LEGAL option, then I wouldn't have any problem with people using them. People like me who never want to take the chance of getting caught will never use something like that. If it were legal, yes, I'd probably use some of them. And then I wouldn't consider it unfair if others saw fit not to use them - for then, it would be their choice, and well within the ToS - to either add them or refuse. And if that's their playstyle, then that's their choice. Kind of like opting out of end-game LSes and never getting Relic armor because you don't want to put up with the drama - it's your choice not to get it, but it won't necessarily gimp you.

I'll finish this later, my son hit enter by mistake >.<

[aozora]

Originally Posted by Aksannyi

I understand what you are saying aozora, and while I might find something like some of the plugins useful, the fact of the matter is, I'm not planning to do anything to give anyone any cause to ban me, after all the hard work I've done with my character.

If the extra plugins were, in fact, made into a LEGAL option, then I wouldn't have any problem with people using them. People like me who never want to take the chance of getting caught will never use something like that. If it were legal, yes, I'd probably use some of them. And then I wouldn't consider it unfair if others saw fit not to use them - for then, it would be their choice, and well within the ToS - to either add them or refuse. And if that's their playstyle, then that's their choice. Kind of like opting out of end-game LSes and never getting Relic armor because you don't want to put up with the drama - it's your choice not to get it, but it won't necessarily gimp you.

I'll finish this later, my son hit enter by mistake >.<

This I understand. Using any third-party plug-in carries an inherent risk. Personally, I agree the risk outweighs the gain - who wants to lose something they've put months or years into for, what... recast timers?

And I apologize if I come off as rude. I get very ... prickly when it comes to the idea of individualism.

"We must learn to reject as total evil the conception that the common good is served by the abolition of individual rights. " - Ayn Rand

[Omniblast]

Sorry I havn't been following the post, I meant the art direction. I like ffxi's art direction except for the humongous hume hands that people have, (including the girls, it looks very disporportioned.)

I like wow's user interface, however I don't like their movement interface. (click diablo style)

I think that works out if your playing a fps, but not a rpg.

[Murphie]

You don't have to click in WoW if you don't want to. You can bind all of your comands to a keypress if you like.

[IfritnoItazura]

Originally Posted by aozora

"We must learn to reject as total evil the conception that the common good is served by the abolition of individual rights. " - Ayn Rand

This is an extremist view; living in a society means compromises between individual freedom and common laws/rules.

Take smoking, for example: If the majority of people in an area/state/nation decides that smoking is bad, but it is an individual choice, is it so horrible to ban smoking from public area while permitting people to smoke in their own home or car? Seems like a sensible give and take, knowing what harm tobacco does while acknowledging those who want to smoke, even though it limits the freedom of smoking to some degree.

And, for the situation of Windower and plug-ins, the appropriate comparison may be with sports. While you can argue that an individual athlete (either team member or solo competitor) has the right to take measures to improve his performance, try telling his fellow sportsmen it's okay for some people to take sport enhancing drugs while the sport's organizations say "No."

S-E has been trying to keep a leveled playing field. It's not a bad or outrageous goal, in my opinion.

* * *

When are they going to reveal the date for rolling out the windowed mode? -_- Also, I really want to know if we can take higher resolution pictures, and if we can screenshot chat log or not.

[aozora]

Originally Posted by IfritnoItazura

And, for the situation of Windower and plug-ins, the appropriate comparison may be with sports. While you can argue that an individual athlete (either team member or solo competitor) has the right to take measures to improve his performance, try telling his fellow sportsmen it's okay for some people to take sport enhancing drugs while the sport's organizations say "No."

S-E has been trying to keep a leveled playing field. It's not a bad or outrageous goal, in my opinion.

Oh, not at all, and your comparison is an apt one.

Putting aside what the sportsman group may think or care for a second, the argument could be made that sports are actually more fair with performance enhancing drugs. Or at least as fair. Depending on your definition of fair.

Say Athlete A has a natural ability that Athlete B lacks. He was born able to run faster, or jump higher, or what have you. Athlete B trains and trains and trains, but he will be equal to athlete B without artificial means.

So, here it is, Athlete B has taken steroids. He's cheated. Bad form. But, now, he's playing on the same level as Athlete A. Fair definition #1 - equal ability.

And as long as both athletes can aquire these drugs, then you get fair definition #2 - equal access.

It can be easily extrapolated to the plug-in argument.

(What is that you say? PS2 users in Japan couldn't use the plugins? When did they stop selling PCs over there? XD )

And yes, Ayn Rand is an extremist, but people often have a tendency to be extremists in the other direction - in their willingness to be collectivist. You are right in saying the middle path is best.

In this case, personally, I think the middle path is choice.

[Jonastb]

I love hearing the assumption that PS2 players want to switch to PC. That is a really arrogant assumption. I have been playing since the NA PS2 release, and I have absolutely no desire to play on a PC.
Does that astound you? Oh well. FFXI is not the sole domain of the PC.
Some PC players assume that because they can have added ability through the PC, then any system that can't do it, should be taken away. And because they can do, they should be allowed to. Guess what, you don't own the game, you play it. You also have to deal with the rules of the game. If you don't like the rules, take your PC to another MMO.

[aozora]

Originally Posted by Jonastb

I love hearing the assumption that PS2 players want to switch to PC. That is a really arrogant assumption. I have been playing since the NA PS2 release, and I have absolutely no desire to play on a PC.

I applaud you for exercising your right to choose what platform to play the game on, and accepting the limitations inherent in that choice.

edit:

You also have to deal with the rules of the game. If you don't like the rules, take your PC to another MMO.

And speaking of arrogance! Hoo-boy! "I don't care for your proposed ideas of change. The rules suit me fine. You should leave if they don't suit you."

[dejey]

Originally Posted by aozora

That's how ... it should be? That is your choice. Yet you are saying that others choice should be restricted...
And spare me the collectivist argument that it's "not fair." It would be just as fair to allow all these add-on to everyone, and allow the choice to use them or not (again, as WoW has done) as it would be to restrict everyone (to your preferred style of play).
Oh dear. This idea really frightens me.
Anyway, in this case, the spirit of the rule is simple: "Don't F* over other players." Don't bot, don't scam, don't RMT... Not being able to use plug-ins is a solution to that problem, not an end in of itself.

the bold part is what i think is wrong. yes you are restricted from seeing your pt's TP. this is all because of SE (WHO MADE THE GAME), its their game they can do what you want.

2nd some of the restrictions are duo to the PS2. they said this many times the PS2 has got a big ass limit and thus the PC must be the same.

[Sevv]

Originally Posted by aozora

And speaking of arrogance! Hoo-boy! "I don't care for your proposed ideas of change. The rules suit me fine. You should leave if they don't suit you."

So your basically saying the rules dont suit you because "OMG I cant see your tp how ever will i set up a sc O.o; !!!"

Ya im a ps2 user and usually set up and call everyones sc when to go in the endgame ls so plug-ins arnt the means to do anything. <tp> allows me to see thier tp and omg i shouldnt have to dare make ppl hit a macro!!! Poor Pc users omg /emo.

/sarcasim off

OK ya but if you ever get banned for windower because of plug-in after they make windower legal, I will laugh my ass off and you will have been band for seeing tp, that of course if thats your only 3rd party program.

[aozora]

Originally Posted by SevIfrit

OK ya but if you ever get banned for windower because of plug-in after they make windower legal, I will laugh my ass off and you will have been band for seeing tp, that of course if thats your only 3rd party program.

I'm still curious as to why you guys are so terribly... well, spiteful, for lack of a better word. I haven't seen such vehemence regarding rules and punishment on other FFXI boards, or in game for that matter.

The more I read "I want to see other players punished for breaking rules. I love rules" the more concerned I become. People that care overly much for the letter of the law make very poor judges. Just good enforcers.

I'm trying to show there are alternatives to this line of thinking... And alternative game designs to meet the desired goal "Don't f* over other players."

Lost cause?

Edit: and actually, yes, windower is the only one that I currently use. I have tried others, sure, but I didn't care to continue to use them. Free will rocks!

[Sevv]

Originally Posted by aozora

I'm still curious as to why you guys are so terribly... well, spiteful, for lack of a better word. I haven't seen such vehemence regarding rules and punishment on other FFXI boards, or in game for that matter.
The more I read "I want to see other players punished for breaking rules. I love rules" the more concerned I become. People that care overly much for the letter of the law make very poor judges. Just good enforcers.
I'm trying to show there are alternatives to this line of thinking... And alternative game designs to meet the desired goal "Don't f* over other players."
Lost cause?
Edit: and actually, yes, windower is the only one that I currently use. I have tried others, sure, but I didn't care to continue to use them. Free will rocks!

lol spiteful for following the rules? lol personally i got suspended for the whm crying mpk when i pulled and she was afk, so lol @ rules. But when you have to break the rules because your lack of skill in a game to try and lvl the playing field thats sad. You say the rules are unfair and you need to say i.e. The ability to TP.
Lets move this into rl, we both going for a single spot on a team and both equal in skill but you take steriods are you directly interfering with me, no. But you are killing the intergity of the game, you wanna break the rules by needing to see tp infact you still are breaking the rules. And alternative line of thinking would be posting in ask s-e, or recomnding to bring the few useful plug-ins to the offical version.

You come at it like HAHAHA omg ps2 users wish they could be me with my 3rd pt tools, Oh you dont use them cuz your legit well dont bitch at me for cheating cuz i do what i want!

[aozora]

Originally Posted by SevIfrit

You come at it like HAHAHA omg ps2 users wish they could be me with my 3rd pt tools, Oh you dont use them cuz your legit well dont bitch at me for cheating cuz i do what i want!

Ah, um... no?

At this point, I'm just trying to frame a philosophical discussion to get some insight into those with (varying degrees of) authoritarian values. Why people would enjoy public executions, as it were.

I apologize if my argument is unclear, or all over the place... I'm just kinda brainstorming.

Pragmatically, sure, there are rules. There are penalties. It makes more sense to try and avoid those penalties by following the rules.

But that's a different ball of wax than "I follow rules, punish those that don't so that I may laugh at them." That's almost, well, sadistic.

Anyway, using third party stuff is a just an easy, concrete example of this. As long as you are not, again, f*ing someone over, it's a minor infraction.

So, I gave an example of a system with looser rule set (WoWs addon scheme) where using them wouldn't be breaking rules, and that didn't go over too well, either.

I'm at a loss.

[Aksannyi]

Let me clarify, that I'm not saying I would /cheer if everyone who uses Windower were banned. That encompasses at least half of my friends, and also my husband. But I'm not sure I would feel very sympathetic toward them, considering they knew it was against the rules.

It's like driving on the highway. We know it's illegal to go 85 mph. I might warn you to slow down, tell you it's unsafe, and you'll get a huge fine if you get pulled over, but other than that there is nothing I can do to get you to slow down. So if you get pulled over, I'm not going to be all like, "Yes! Woo hoo! That'll teach you!" But I would definitely feel like you deserved it and I wouldn't really feel any sympathy towards you, because you knew you were breaking the law and you did it anyway.