[Feba]

Sabaron: Nobody is bitching here. Like I said, even though I thought it was an exploit, I still used it because it's far too fucking effective to min/max everything instead of taking the time to balance.

[Sabaron]

Originally Posted by Feba

Sabaron: Nobody is bitching here. Like I said, even though I thought it was an exploit, I still used it because it's far too fucking effective to min/max everything instead of taking the time to balance.

My reply was actually directed more toward kitten because he was ranting about how SE should outlaw this and that which I generally classify as "bitching".

[Yellow Mage]

Originally Posted by Sabaron

YM: Explain how what I've said is an argument from silence or be silent.

You're assuming that just because S-E didn't explicitly say "we don't want you to use /logout as a method of averting PW's AF," that it is therefore 100% legit to do so. This is more likening to, using your own analogy, instead of putting peanut butter in her fudge, Puppy instead places LSD. Sure it wasn't explicitly prohibited by the rules, but common sense tells us that the judges never thought such a situation would come up.

Oh, but I suppose you want to tell me it is okay for dogs to play in basketball games, hmm?

[Sabaron]

Originally Posted by Yellow Mage

You're assuming that just because S-E didn't explicitly say "we don't want you to use /logout as a method of averting PW's AF," that it is therefore 100% legit to do so. This is more likening to, using your own analogy, instead of putting peanut butter in her fudge, Puppy instead places LSD. Sure it wasn't explicitly prohibited by the rules, but common sense tells us that the judges never thought such a situation would come up...

Ah, but your assumption is based on the fact that the judges never thought of it. As I mentioned in my previous post, both tactics have been used continually for a good portion of the game, therefore it is safe to assume that SE already knows about the tactics, but chooses not to address them.

Your Air Bud analogy is therefore a bit incomplete. A better analogy would be this one:

In the 2008 contest, Puppy used LSD as an additive in her fudge and many people in the audience were outraged. However, the judges, despite having eaten the LSD laden fudge do not strip Puppy of her award nor does the panel implement any rule barring psychoactive chemicals from the contest and in 2009, when Puppy puts Quaaludes in her fudge, the judges again award her the blue ribbon.


I would also like to say that you can now make a true argument from silence:

The judges in the fudge making contest like drugs.

[Yellow Mage]

Originally Posted by Sabaron

In the 2008 contest, Puppy used LSD as an additive in her fudge and many people in the audience were outraged. However, the judges, despite having eaten the LSD laden fudge do not strip Puppy of her award nor does the panel implement any rule barring psychoactive chemicals from the contest and in 2009, when Puppy puts Quaaludes in her fudge, the judges again award her the blue ribbon.

And the audience was outraged again. Which brings us to where we are today.

Air Bud had sequels, you know.

[Sabaron]

Originally Posted by Yellow Mage

And the audience was outraged again. Which brings us to where we are today.

Air Bud had sequels, you know.

One of my points was that the audience doesn't have any direct authority (which is usually a good thing).

If enough of the people in the audience were outraged, the judges would have to outlaw psychoactives or risk having no profits for their fudge making contest. However, the lack of the response on the part of SE in this case indicates that these tactics are not so highly despised that people complain about them to the point that they will cancel their subscriptions.

Therefore, if you want to make it illegal to use these tactics, you should boycott SE until they implement the change. Since you do not care that much, you won't do this and SE will not see fit to change anything. I doubt very highly that anyone will quit FFXI because some LS beat Pandemonium Warden with less-than-the-most-efficient tactics and that most people are pleased enough to see a first win just so they know what the dude drops. Also, as an extension, the changes implemented to "fix" this particular system may create more ire than the original problem in which case SE would definitely not want to implement them.

[Vyuru]

My reply was actually directed more toward kitten because he was ranting about how SE should outlaw this and that which I generally classify as "bitching".

I kinda think that 'kitten, and myself, have every right to bitch about the hate logging. Why? We both have Dragoon above level 50. If SE wanted Blms to be able to ditch hate quickly they would have given them an ability similar to Super Jump, or Snarl, or any other -enmity ability.

I view logging hate much as I view any exploit. Do I care that they got the drops or do I care if they get to keep the drops? Not really.

However much like the Smn burn in Korroloka thing, or the pseudo hundred fist two hand weapon, or any of the other exploits people have come up with, this too is an exploit. And people will find an infinite number of reasons in order to "justify" why this isn't an exploit and why it's ok to do this.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Originally Posted by Karinya

I don't think it's necessary to do anything as complicated as your suggestion - just make NMs (heck, even just HNMs) not drop logged out players from their hate list as long as the NM is still alive.

Yes, but I like complicated (and sadistic) solutions.

Originally Posted by Sabaron

My reply was actually directed more toward kitten because he was ranting about how SE should outlaw this and that which I generally classify as "bitching".

I offered a solution to what many have considered a long-running issue in the game. That's bitching?

I made a distinction and illustrated the differences between an in-game tactic and a "tactic" that takes you out of the game. The log-in screen is not part of the game, its a menu that allows us to access the game, create a character or back out to POL and that's all it is, as such it should have no impact on NM fights. Yet it does, which is odd since it can be twisted for high-level gain.

I don't think SE made it that way so you could wipe enmity for big NM fights, but rather, to reset everything (sans certain buffs) on login like +hHP/MP, songs, rolls and so on. Enmity was one of those things.

What if you gained the ire of some higher level NM out in boonies of FFXI just a couple seconds before you logged out? You didn't know it was there. What if no one bothered to kill it because it didn't drop anything worthwhile? What if you had enmity 10 hours later and it came back and killed you. I think this is the contigency SE was looking at. Most people log off in a safe spot, but its not always an option. And even then, you risk aggro for logging in a place where you can gain aggro. For that, you should die. For logging in on a fight you didn't really start? Not so much.

But a pop NM? Logging out is "strategy? If you popped an NM, you intended to aggro it on some level. That shouldn't clear til you're dead, the NM is dead or someone took hate off you.

[Mog]

While you may not like the fact that logout and member switching were key factors to winning, these tactics have been in existence for a very long time. You change those, and well, you change the how a big majority of HNM's are fought in this game. There's no simple way of getting rid of logout and invite. What if somebody DC's from the game? Are you going to penalize them for getting disconnected and not let them join the fight?

And on gear swaps, lol at the day gear swaps get taken away from my black mage. I guess I'll always nuke with my Aquilo's Staff.

[Sabaron]

Originally Posted by Vyuru

I kinda think that 'kitten, and myself, have every right to bitch about the hate logging...

I have DRG60, so that in and of itself does not constitute a reason to be upset.

I can't construct logical arguments to counter feelings, so all I can say is that I'm sorry you feel bad, but, your feelings do not change the fact that they won the fight, they got the drops, and SE still hasn't changed the rules.

While I respect you as a player, I still feel that what you are describing is what I would call...

Sour Grapes
______________________________

Originally Posted by Mog

...There's no simple way of getting rid of logout and invite...

Technically, there is... Just make the hate list persist until the mob dies or regenerates regardless of whether or not a person on the list logs out. Code-wise, it would probably be a rather simple thing to do if the hate list is stored in the mob's data since you would have to actively pare entries from the list when someone logged out or zoned--this change would involve the deletion of existing code that pares the list which is essentially mindless as long as you can read code. If the item was stored in the player's data, it would be as simple as adding it the hate list to the persistent character object just like they do with status effects. There are coding instances that I could think of that would make this change rather difficult, but all of them (so far) assume that the initial programming done on the enmity system is in some way an initially poor design choice on the part of SE. The solution appears simple enough (without looking at the actual code) that it would be easy for any of the programmers on the team (or even a well-versed college student intern) to make the modification relatively quickly. The point I'm making is that SE has not done this despite knowing that the tactic exists.

[Yellow Mage]

Originally Posted by Sabaron

While I respect you as a player, I still feel that what you are describing is what I would call...

This isn't a case of sour grapes at all. It would be sour grapes if it were like, oh, it's unfair that these guys beat PW by using an ability that I don't have, but I didn't want any of PW's drops anyway. Fact of the matter is, just logging out to dodge hate is a stupidly simple exploit that anybody who had 30 seconds to rest can do (remember back in the day where you actually let your mages rest in parties . . . ).

Will come back later with a more appropriate analogy.

[Sabaron]

Originally Posted by Yellow Mage

This isn't a case of sour grapes at all. It would be sour grapes if it were like, oh, it's unfair that these guys beat PW by using an ability that I don't have, but I didn't want any of PW's drops anyway. Fact of the matter is, just logging out to dodge hate is a stupidly simple exploit that anybody who had 30 seconds to rest can do (remember back in the day where you actually let your mages rest in parties . . . ).

Will come back later with a more appropriate analogy.

While, I admit that Sour Grapes isn't the most apt analogy, I couldn't really think of a better one at the time that was widely known and I didn't really feel that the situation warranted forming my own since I think Sour Grapes is close enough to get the point across. Besides, logical analogies are useless when you're discussing how some people feel about something rather than what they think about it.

[eticket109]

I can't believe so many people took feba's bait. Did you all just register today or what?

As far as the second alliance thing, like Aksannyi mentioned, the group that did this had 50+ there to begin with. If this is the group that's been trying it, they've worked out a number of different tactics over multiple attempts. I give them respect for actually going out and doing it instead of sitting on the sidelines telling everyone how it could be done better.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Originally Posted by Sabaron

I have DRG60, so that in and of itself does not constitute a reason to be upset.

I can't construct logical arguments to counter feelings, so all I can say is that I'm sorry you feel bad, but, your feelings do not change the fact that they won the fight, they got the drops, and SE still hasn't changed the rules.

While I respect you as a player, I still feel that what you are describing is what I would call...

Sour Grapes

How is it you can link something and not actually understand its meaning it at all? Did you read the fable?

"Logging out" would not equate to the grapes. Pointing out an inconsistency in design is not "sour."

ZNM/Sky/Sea and certain NMs in this game are popped. You picked the fight. Why should you be able to get out of it?

Here's a proverb for ya: If you can't stand the heat, stay out of the kitchen. It means know what you're getting into and be ready to deal with consequences. Enmity is a consequence. For pop/HNM, logout should not be a "solution."

What they're doing is, in fact, what some people do because they don't like losing in an offline game - they lean over and hit the reset button. Rather failing and learning from it, you're picking the other way to be a loser - quitting.

Quitters should not be rewarded. Running from a fight you picked is the act of a coward. We're not calling sour grapes, we're just waiting for people's balls to drop, as it were.

Apathy was also one of the LSes in Map's corner with the whole "Wall of Justice" bit went down if I remember correctly.

"This glitch was there, damn, SE must have meant not to seal up this glitch as its the only way we could beat AV!" I remember Map insisting that was the case.

Oh wait...

SE did seal up that glitch. Looks like SE disagreed with Map.

This "log out strategy" ventures into the same territory of fucktarded rationalization. "Its there, so it must be intended."

So RDM was intended to be gimp? Apparently SE didn't think so, they changed that. COR was supposed to play second fiddle to BRD? SE put them on par, even potentially exceeding BRD in mage support and buff duration/power. Just because it was there from the start doesn't mean its intended.

As Armando once pointed out, SE is now going back and fixing things in the old content with this expansion. I don't think its going to just stop with adjusting low and intermediate level content, they've more than covered that by now. That content was just the priority at the time, there's plenty of long-standing endgame issues to resolve.

SE often also implements solutions that don't mirror what we wanted. Fields of Valor is proof of this. We wanted more soloability, we wanted similar benfits to Sanction and Sigil in conquest zones. SE didn't overhaul the system, they instead added a new system. And it works.

Its only a matter of time til we see what SE decides to tweak further. Just because the log-out matter isn't vocalized by the majority doesn't mean SE isn't considering changes to what some view as detrimental to hardcore aspects of the game.

[TheGrandMom]

Swapping people in and out is not an exploit and probably something that SE is happy you are doing. They are all for taking breaks aren't they? Well why would they say that and then think swapping people out is an exploit? That makes no damn sense.

I get tired of elitest assholes saying "we do it this way and this way is better than your way". Whatever gets the job done IS the right way. Get over yourself, you aren't impressing anyone with your attitude.