[Yellow Mage]

Originally Posted by Armando

The consumer has all the right in the world to complain.

Straw man: us who are against the unofficial windower have nothing against your right to complain. It's just your method of complaining that gets us: it feels all "ends justify means"-y.

[TheGrandMom]

Originally Posted by Armando

Is it for me to decide? No. Do I have the right to complain about it? Yes.

No one said you didn't have the right to complain and that isn't the topic at hand now is it? The topic is USING these exploits and why people think that its ok but logging out to miss an attack from a mob is not. You say one is ok to do and not an exploit but the other is not ok and is an exploit. One breaks the TOS and smells suspiciously like an exploit and the other one does not break the TOS but people think it smells.

Originally Posted by Armando

No, it's not obvious that they don't want me to know these things. They've made lots of mistakes in the past and they've had to correct them.

First off they are against the TOS so yes SE has said they don't want you to use them. And until SE officially puts them in the game or sanctions them, they are exploits of the game.

Originally Posted by Armando

The consumer. You've said it before - the driving force behind game making is money.

Then show them with your money and stop paying for the game. Thats what consumers do, they don't pay for goods and services if they don't like them. Use the suggestion form that SE provides and let them know. Start a campaign on all the FFXI sites and get people involved and bring it to SE's attention. Those are things you can do as a consumer. But breaking the TOS every time you log in and use those handy little exploits is not.

Originally Posted by Armando

Frankly? If it does no harm to others and it doesn't give me an unfair advantage, yes. I run the risk of jeopardizing my account but I accept that risk - just like I accept the risk of getting a speeding ticket when I go over the speed limit by 5 MPH. Am I increasing the risk of crashing by going 5 miles over the limit? That's highly debatable. Many people would say "no."

Breaking the law is breaking the law. Breaking your agreement via the TOS is breaking your agreement. They are exploits pure and simple. There just is no debating that fact no matter how much you think there is.

And saying that they don't give you an unfair advantage is bullshit. I didn't even know of some of the programs you could get with windower. Then the ls I was in had this whm that was so fast curing that I was amazed. I made a comment to the person like "LOL What are you a bot!?" and thats how I found out about all of the things you could get. So you are saying that this person that can keep people alive like no tomorrow doesn't have an advantage over someone that doesn't have this program? What a crock of shit. You're telling me that the person that has the distance program and can stay out of AOE range over a newer person that can't doesn't have an unfair advantage? Another crock of shit. You're telling me that someone that uses the utsusemi program that tells him how many shadows he has up over a person that can't doesn't have an unfair advantage? Again...crock meet shit. I know, I've used them all. I know how they work and I know what its like to use them and then go on a computer that doesn't have them and play without them. There is a HUGE difference.

Originally Posted by Armando

No, I have some dignity, and unlike the whiners I don't expect not to get punished when I'm caught "breaking the rules." But things aren't as black and white as "you're cheating" and "you're not cheating"; if they were, we wouldn't need judges and trials. Would you honestly fault anyone that bitched over getting a speeding ticket for going over the limit by 1 MPH?

Unfortunately, this isn't how it works. There are no judges or trials. SE is the judge, jury, and executioner so all that matters is their take on it. Its against their rules and if you get caught......well you know whats going to happen. People have been suspended over the windower....banned I do not know but if they had previous infractions, probably. Thats says it all, they are exploits and against the TOS.

Originally Posted by Armando

EDIT: Honest question - can SE take legal action against the Windower team for providing 3rd party programs that are against the ToS? It's not like their website is hard to track down.

Could they? Yes, I'm sure they could but it wouldn't be worth it to them and thats probably why they don't do it. If the windower was a gateway for a program that could do malicious activities on their servers, then yes they could sue for damages. But courts, lawyers, research, etc cost money so sueing a young person who probably doesn't have a pot to piss in really isn't in their best interest.

[Armando]

No one said you didn't have the right to complain and that isn't the topic at hand now is it? The topic is USING these exploits and why people think that its ok but logging out to miss an attack from a mob is not. You say one is ok to do and not an exploit but the other is not ok and is an exploit. One breaks the TOS and smells suspiciously like an exploit and the other one does not break the TOS but people think it smells.

You're the one that brought up the topic by suggesting that if I didn't like the the game or the way the interface works I should stop paying for it. That's suggesting that either I put up with it quietly or I quit.

Secondly, I never took a stance on the Log Out "exploit." I never said one is OK and the other isn't. I was merely pointing out that, despite being against the ToS, using Windower for a //cure5 alias is hardly comparable to deliberately logging out of the game to avoid Astral Flow. The latter provides a very real and tangible advantage within the game; the former doesn't, since it achieves the same thing that hitting a macro or typing /ma "Cure V" <whatever> does. By comparing something that yields no tangible advantage within the game to something that does, you're blowing the former out of proportion.

Thirdly, and now I will take a stance on the issue, deliberately using Log Out to avoid Astral Flow may or may not be considered an exploit by Square Enix. It's just as good a candidate to be considered fowl play within the context of the PW fight as is using another perfectly legitimate action - viewing a cutscene - to deliberately avoid Diabolos's Draw In, or to avoid being damaged by Mammets while the rest of your party picks them off one by one. Just because logging out is fair play under 99% of all circumstances, and just because logging out at an opportune moment during a fight isn't against the ToS, it's not excluded from being considered an exploit when used for the specific purpose of avoiding PW's Astral Flow. SE sets the rules for what's considered an acceptable strategy - they proved that when they nerfed Souleater vs Absolute Virtue to remove it as a viable strategy for winning.

First off they are against the TOS so yes SE has said they don't want you to use them. And until SE officially puts them in the game or sanctions them, they are exploits of the game.

Using Windower and its plug-ins is against the ToS and is not something SE wants anyone to do; true. However, that's not what you originally said or what I quoted. I was addressing your claim that if SE wanted me to be able to see how much TP a party member has, such a feature would be in the game. I already explained why that's not necessarily true.

Breaking the law is breaking the law. Breaking your agreement via the TOS is breaking your agreement. They are exploits pure and simple. There just is no debating that fact no matter how much you think there is.

My point was never to disprove that breaking the ToS is breaking the ToS. It's that breaking the ToS is not synonymous to cheating. Because using //cure5 doesn't give me a gameplay advantage over non-Windower users, it's only "cheating" because it's against the ToS. It's not "cheating" in the sense of breaking the game's rules (the ones coded into the game and dictate what our characters can do, not the ToS) or letting me do something that other players can't. In other words, breaking the ToS, while illegal, is not always synonymous with fowl play. That's the underlying point here. Using Windower wouldn't make me a cheater - it would make me a Terms of Service Breaker. That's grounds for any punishment the ToS says SE is allowed to give me, but it doesn't imply I'm a dishonest or dishonorable player.

Unfortunately, this isn't how it works. There are no judges or trials. SE is the judge, jury, and executioner so all that matters is their take on it. Its against their rules and if you get caught......well you know whats going to happen. People have been suspended over the windower....banned I do not know but if they had previous infractions, probably. Thats says it all, they are exploits and against the TOS.

I was not disputing SE's authority. I was disputing your claim that breaking the ToS is strictly equal to cheating. Using a 3rd party program to do something as trivial as changing the game's fonts would also be against the ToS, but that could hardly be considered a form of cheating just because it's an illegal action. It's like saying that picking a fight with a referee during a sports game is cheating. It's against the rules, but it's not cheating.

[TheGrandMom]

Originally Posted by Armando

Stuff.

In the context that our conversation is in (i.e. Windower Plugins), you are breaking the TOS using them. You keep trying to twist it but the topic at hand is exploits and the sub topic is logging hate to avoid an attack AND using Windower Plugins. I never talked about anything other than those 2 subjects.

And the suggestion I gave you about stopping playing is because you keep talking about how SE fails at making the game the way YOU want it, so this in turn justifies why you use the windower exploits. If the game is so horribly made that you have to complain and cheat, then why play it. Not only do you save yourself the grief of having to put up with such incompetency but you also send a message to SE by saying "I will not pay for this inferior product." It's a win win situation.

[Armando]

And the suggestion I gave you about stopping playing is because you keep talking about how SE fails at making the game the way YOU want it, so this in turn justifies why you use the windower exploits.

No, the underlying justification I'm using for Windower "exploits" is that they're harmless. I don't use the fact that our interface fails to exploit Windower's ability to make looping macros or to have SpellCast automatically swap gear for me without me lifting so much as a finger.

If the game is so horribly made that you have to complain and cheat, then why play it. Not only do you save yourself the grief of having to put up with such incompetency but you also send a message to SE by saying "I will not pay for this inferior product." It's a win win situation.

Except, I'm not complaining about the game as a whole being horribly made - just the interface. And I'm not cheating - I still play by all the same rules you do. I don't automate anything, pos hack, claim bot, wireframe mode or anything else that's obviously outside of the realm of possibilities for anyone not using 3rd party tools and that would give me a glaringly obvious and unfair advantage. Telling me to quit the game is still a silly suggestion, because if you were to suggest that to everyone that agreed with me in that our interface sucks, SE would lose a loooooooooot of customers, and more importantly, I don't pick the games I play based on the interface alone. A bad interface is just something I suck up and live with to enjoy the rest of the game - but if there was an alternative, obviously I would take it. Finally, it's even more win-win to continue to play the game using Windower - I don't have to cope with the default interface and in the event that I get caught I still send the message out to SE that I don't like their interface. At least that provides a better hint than quitting - for all they know I quit over endgame drama.

[TheGrandMom]

Originally Posted by Armando

No, the underlying justification I'm using for Windower "exploits" is that they're harmless.

They may be harmless to you but the person competing against you, without using them, wouldn't think so. Thats the entire point. They give you an advantage that not everyone has. You become more efficient and therefore have a better chance at success.

Originally Posted by Armando

And I'm not cheating - I still play by all the same rules you do.

Well my rules say no 3rd party programs, so yours must too. So if you are using 3rd party programs, which you said you are, then thats cheating. Pretty simple, what don't you understand?

Originally Posted by Armando

I don't automate anything, pos hack, claim bot, wireframe mode or anything else that's obviously outside of the realm of possibilities for anyone not using 3rd party tools and that would give me a glaringly obvious and unfair advantage.

Oh ok! So its ok to cheat just a little bit but not if it gives you "a glaringly obvious and unfair advantage". Gotcha.

Originally Posted by Armando

Telling me to quit the game is still a silly suggestion, because if you were to suggest that to everyone that agreed with me in that our interface sucks, SE would lose a loooooooooot of customers, and more importantly, I don't pick the games I play based on the interface alone.

But that would be a GOOD thing so its not silly. If a lot of people did that then SE would get the hint that there was an issue. If you buy a coffee every morning from the local coffee shop and it sucks, if you stop and a lot of other people stop the store either starts making better coffee or closes up shop. Either way, its a good thing.

[Armando]

They may be harmless to you but the person competing against you, without using them, wouldn't think so. Thats the entire point. They give you an advantage that not everyone has. You become more efficient and therefore have a better chance at success.

Doesn't give me a better chance of success in any sort of competition. Not at claiming things, that's for sure - because no alias is going to be faster than just using a macro, and everyone can use a macro. There's no one competing against me in an EXP party or Nyzul Isle either. Is Ventrilo cheating too? Because only PC users have access to it, but seeing as how Ventrilo doesn't interact with FFXI any more than a cell phone, it's not against the ToS. Ventrilo or TeamSpeak have even less to do with FFXI than parsers, and those aren't against the ToS either. Yet using Ventrilo to communicate with LS members is undoubtedly faster than typing, which provides a performance boost far greater than what Windower can do for me. Ironic, isn't it?

Well my rules say no 3rd party programs, so yours must too. So if you are using 3rd party programs, which you said you are, then thats cheating. Pretty simple, what don't you understand?

I was referring to the rules imposed upon your character by the game, not any self-imposed rules. You know, rules like the one where it's obviously impossible for me to have a permanent flee effect, or to warp to any position on the map at will.

Oh ok! So its ok to cheat just a little bit but not if it gives you "a glaringly obvious and unfair advantage". Gotcha.

Who's twisting words now?

But that would be a GOOD thing so its not silly. If a lot of people did that then SE would get the hint that there was an issue. If you buy a coffee every morning from the local coffee shop and it sucks, if you stop and a lot of other people stop the store either starts making better coffee or closes up shop. Either way, its a good thing.

Except, I'm not complaining about the game as a whole being horribly made - just the interface.

We've been over this. Quitting over the interface alone is absurd and suggesting that someone actually quit over the interface alone is equally absurd. It's like selling your X-Box 360 because you think the controller sucks.

Even if we humored you, there's no part of losing half of their subscribers that's going to make the devs think "Gee, we should fix that clunky interface, that would really rake in new and old players alike!" They're more likely to try to mimic WoW's features than to overhaul the UI.

[TheGrandMom]

Originally Posted by Armando

Doesn't give me a better chance of success in any sort of competition. Not at claiming things, that's for sure - because no alias is going to be faster than just using a macro, and everyone can use a macro. There's no one competing against me in an EXP party or Nyzul Isle either.

It does give an advantage to people that are in an endgame ls and use the programs while engaging in competative endgame activities. I'm not privy to your daily schedule or if you belong to an endgame ls but if you do participate in these activities you are cheating. Since the discussion in this thread is about everyone using these programs, it covers more than just your activities.

When I'm on in the afternoon and we claim Ixion or Sandworm or whatever, sometimes there is only the bare minimum of people on. That means 2 plds and thats it. So if the healers use a program that helps them heal/remove status effect on the plds (and others) faster, this gives them an advantage because if they'd be too slow and both the plds would die that would probably mean a wipe. If we wipe, then another ls gets a chance at claiming and winning. I know this to be 100% true, I've used them.

Originally Posted by Armando

Is Ventrilo cheating too?

No because it doesn't interact with the game like windower programs do. Does it give you an advantage? Yes of course it does. You are able to communicate quickly and more efficiently than someone that must type. I've done it with many ls's and I can say that things are much smoother the more people that are on vent than not.

Originally Posted by Armando

I was referring to the rules imposed upon your character by the game, not any self-imposed rules.

I said if you thought the game was badly made that you should take action and petition, complain, and/or quit playing the game. You said you play buy the rules, and since we were talking previously about the TOS those are the rules I went by. I didn't realize you changed the conversation and were talking about other rules.

Originally Posted by Armando

Who's twisting words now?

But I'm not. I'm taking what you said and trying to understand it. You said:

Originally Posted by Armando

I don't automate anything, pos hack, claim bot, wireframe mode or anything else that's obviously outside of the realm of possibilities for anyone not using 3rd party tools and that would give me a glaringly obvious and unfair advantage.

Which aren't the programs we were discussing in the first place, so you were deflecting the conversation away from the intended course and I brought it back. So I took it to mean that the ones you named are programs you choose not to use because they give "a glaringly obvious and unfair advantage." So, since you use OTHER programs that give you an unfair adavantage which is cheating, that leads one to believe that you think its ok if you use the programs that you consider not as bad as long as you don't use the other ones which are worse. I clarified, not twisted.

Originally Posted by Armando

Even if we humored you, there's no part of losing half of their subscribers that's going to make the devs think "Gee, we should fix that clunky interface, that would really rake in new and old players alike!" They're more likely to try to mimic WoW's features than to overhaul the UI.

If we don't send the right signal to developers about our games, then how can they know to make our games right? If we keep buying and playing half assed crap, then all they'll keep making is half assed crap. I'd rather see a game scrapped and never play it again as long as I knew the next game by them would be better. If they don't listen to your words, then you must speak with your wallet because the only thing many companies seem to know is the jingle in their own pockets.

[Ellipses]

I cut out a whole lot of the rest of your argument, so if the "out of context!" flag gets waved, that's understandable. But I think these quotes do make for a representative bit of some of the points you're trying to make.

Originally Posted by Armando

Because using //cure5 doesn't give me a gameplay advantage over non-Windower users, it's only "cheating" because it's against the ToS. It's not "cheating" in the sense of breaking the game's rules (the ones coded into the game and dictate what our characters can do, not the ToS) or letting me do something that other players can't.

If this is actually true, why even use it? Saying that //cure5 doesn't give you an advantage over other players, to me, seems the same as saying that it doesn't give Armando-with-//cure5 an advantage over Armando-without-//cure5. So if there's no advantage, what's the point?

The convenience features of the windower do give an advantage. Having recast timers on screen is one less thing you have to type, one less macro line you have to use up, one less thing you have to consciously track, etc. //cure5 means you can do that faster and more efficiently than someone else.

Originally Posted by Armando

Doesn't give me a better chance of success in any sort of competition. Not at claiming things, that's for sure - because no alias is going to be faster than just using a macro, and everyone can use a macro. There's no one competing against me in an EXP party or Nyzul Isle either.

There's competition for spots in LSes. Your increased efficiency makes you more noticeable (in a good way) vs. someone who doesn't use windower plugins. Every little thing you can do a bit faster is something else you can do just a bit better. Every little thing you don't have to concentrate on is something else you can think about and account for. Just like DoT, it adds up, and you end up looking like a much better candidate for endgame events etc. than the PLD who's not using those plugins.

I'd personally like to see DrawDistance (which also provides an advantage over anyone who doesn't have it, just not a very big one: chocobo quest race thingamajigs), TParty, Recast and aliases put into the game. I agree that the UI is pretty horrible. I use the third party windower, with Recast and (once every week or so) DrawDistance. But these things give very clear advantages over other players, and trying to claim otherwise just seems disingenuous.

[Ziero]

How does draw distance help with chocobo races?

[Ellipses]

Originally Posted by Ziero

How does draw distance help with chocobo races?

I mean the city to city quest ones for XP scrolls and whatnot. With DrawDistance set to 20 I can see my route a hell of a lot easier than without.

[Armando]

If this is actually true, why even use it? Saying that //cure5 doesn't give you an advantage over other players, to me, seems the same as saying that it doesn't give Armando-with-//cure5 an advantage over Armando-without-//cure5. So if there's no advantage, what's the point?

Convenience. Like auto-sorting items. Manually sorting takes all of 2 seconds that I can spare at any moment since I have about a 5 minute window to pick an idle time before items are lost. It's a trivial task, though.

//cure5 Whomever may be faster than /ma "Cure V" <something> but hitting Alt-# and then F1-6 for a target is just as quick. Using aliases I don't have to keep my macros organized as I get more of them.

Originally Posted by Thegrandmom

Which aren't the programs we were discussing in the first place, so you were deflecting the conversation away from the intended course and I brought it back. So I took it to mean that the ones you named are programs you choose not to use because they give "a glaringly obvious and unfair advantage." So, since you use OTHER programs that give you an unfair adavantage which is cheating, that leads one to believe that you think its ok if you use the programs that you consider not as bad as long as you don't use the other ones which are worse. I clarified, not twisted.

Some deflection and re-railing. You focus on the parts that are convenient to you and ignore some of the statements that I make as you see fit. For instance, you've ignored more than once now that I've never said FFXI is a bad game as a whole, it just has a shitty UI, just to save face on your argument that I should quit and show them with my money. I'm not quitting over a UI when the rest of the game is enjoyable and I probably wouldn't find another MMO that would float my boat as much as this one - but that doesn't mean I'm not going to make the switch if there's something that makes the UI more amenable.

If you've used Ventrilo then that's cheating by your bolded definition. Ventrilo shaves off more than a few fractions of a second and gives you an advantage over any PS2 users. Not only is talking obviously a lot faster than typing, but you can talk WHILE you type, so your keyboard is always free to do whatever you need to do. So excuse me if I reduce my text commands by a handful of keystrokes!

Pretending you don't cheat by using Ventrilo but claiming I'm a cheater for using plug-ins that give me more comfortable ways of doing the same things a player can do with FFXI's UI just because the latter is against the ToS is hypocritical, and goes right back to what I've been saying (and you've been ignoring) all along. Breaking the ToS or not breaking the ToS is not the deciding factor on whether you're cheating or not. It just decides whether you're liable to be punished.

[Nuriko]

May I point out that this whole thing is starting to get a bit ugly? Let's play nice, please...

Incidentally, I use Windower, but the real point there is being able to look things up online, on the spot (oh, and Vent doesn't hurt). I like full-screen and being able to alt-tab out. Granted, I could print out what I need and return to the game, but that would be a MAJOR pain (especially since I don't have a printer at home, so I'd be looking at waiting for the next day).

[Clever Ninja]

I liked the topic better when I made it about lesbians...

And I can't play without drawdistance anymore, just cause it makes zones look not so retarded and have some actual scenery.

[Ziero]

Originally Posted by Ellipses

I mean the city to city quest ones for XP scrolls and whatnot. With DrawDistance set to 20 I can see my route a hell of a lot easier than without.

Oh, psh to that. If you're doing those races you should know the quickest routes already. Since draw distance doesn't affect mobs or PCs, the only things you'd be able to see would be things that were already there.

Originally Posted by Nuriko

Incidentally, I use Windower, but the real point there is being able to look things up online, on the spot (oh, and Vent doesn't hurt). I like full-screen and being able to alt-tab out. Granted, I could print out what I need and return to the game, but that would be a MAJOR pain (especially since I don't have a printer at home, so I'd be looking at waiting for the next day).

Then why not use the SE Windower? I've been using it for years and haven't had any problems.

Though to be fair, I won't go around calling "harmless" plug-ins like TP pt or the distance measure thingie un-fair cheats because they're really not that much of an advantage. But even still I wouldn't...and don't use them myself.

Originally Posted by Clever Ninja

I liked the topic better when I made it about lesbians...

Well those discussions are always awesome.

And I can't play without drawdistance anymore, just cause it makes zones look not so retarded and have some actual scenery.

Draw Distance is the only Windower plug-in that could ever tempt me to actually use the unofficial windower now. Before with my crappy com, when I did use the Windower, I couldn't risk having more on screen to add more lag to the game. But with my newer com, and improved resolution, I'm sure it would look great...but it's still not enough reason for me to use the unofficial Windower. =(