When to stop subbing drg?

[Bishop]

I know jump and wyvern earrings are useful, but when does drg sub outlive it's usefullness? Or does it ever? Its hard to let go of 5% haste...

[Omni]

i would think at the very latest...50. war double attack is just too hot.

[Bishop]

Ahh yes, I completely overlooked double attack >< Thanks.

[Spinnthrift]

There were some parses a while back of a lvl 75 Mnk/Drg outdamaging a similarly equipped Mnk/War a while back of Allakhazam.

I do believe they were laughed out of the forums though for daring to support something else.

IIRC, they were explaining how Kick attacks were able to proc on Jump/High Jump and subsequently netted a higher TP return overall than /War Double Attack, although I believe they were using Brutal Earring for Double Attack and had some rather snacky gear otherwise.

I think the range that Drg goes back to being viable after /War gets double attack is the post 60 and post 70 range when you get Acc Up and High Jump to shed hate so you can push the hate line further.

[Bishop]

Hmmm, but double attack does proc quite often. However, the hate reset would be VERY useful for mnk though. If you put merit into double attack, would /drg still be better than /war? Or does mnk/drg completley outdmg mnk/war without a doubt?

[Omni]

i dont think merits work with a sub job, only main job.

i dont know if 5% haste and 3 jumps every 3 minutes seems good enough to trade double attack, berserk and warcry... hmmm it be interesting to see some parses if anyone is up for it. heresey is always hard to believe. ive heard many things over theyears from 'oh there was a parse somewhere on some forum about brd/mnk out damaging a war/smn ftw!!!'... you know?

dot from /drg might be good enough though to give it up..... though would you want to lose the better burst dmg on ws that /war might give you?

[Liquidedust]

Hmmm, but double attack does proc quite often. However, the hate reset would be VERY useful for mnk though. If you put merit into double attack, would /drg still be better than /war? Or does mnk/drg completley outdmg mnk/war without a doubt?

High Jump only sheds some hate, around 20-25% from what I have observed so far (Super Jump on the other hand sheds all hate but you cannot sub that so that is a moot point).

Double Attacks merits are job-specific and therefore only work when you're WAR main and never proc when WAR is set as a subjob.

DRG as a subjob compared to WAR for a MNK really is a toss-up, jumps are nice and and all for TP gain but so are Double Attack (0-15 extra TP every 1:30 and 3:00 for jumps or an approx 5% chance to Double Attack).

Then you have to take into consideration Berserk as well, which gives you 25% extra Attack for 60% of the time. And all Haste considered you wont actually benefit from Haste as much until you can stack it up above 10% (which usually wont happen until level 50 at the very earliest with Brown Belt and Wyvern earring).

And Double Attack as well as Berserk would also increase your weaponskill damage which increase your overall damage further and DRG cannot really help you out in that department.

I Would say /DRG is useful 60+ in some instances and at 70+/75 with a full Haste build. I am still not sure of either /DRG or /WAR is best for your overall damage, however personally I feel like /WAR would win overall.

[Bishop]

You may think 5% haste doesn't make too much of a difference. But when the haste spell only gives you 15% haste, 5% seems like quite a significant amount. Plus I think /drg also gives mnk acc bonus, allowing for more haste gear.

[Tirrock]

It's a toss-up, as far as I'm concerned. If a high level MNK (70+) wants to sub DRG, then that's fine with me, so long as they have it leveled. If a pre-50 MNK wants to sub DRG, that's fine with me too.

I don't think I'd care for MNK/DRG from 50 to 69 though...

DRG do get accuracy bonus, +10 accuracy, which does allow them to shove on even more haste gear. That's like a free optical hat. And there's really only one really good earring for MNK that isn't subjob dependant, brutal earring, so it's not like a MNK/DRG would be missing out on anything too major on the earring slot.

[Karinya]

I don't think double attack merits work when war is the subjob (unlike double attack gear).

I don't have any clear answer to the overall problem, though. Aside from certain level ranges where the matchup seems quite uneven (20-29, 50-59), it looks like both subs have some quite nice benefits.

I didn't know about the jump kicks, though. Neat. Do you get damage from both fists counted into the jump, too?

[TenchiHawkwing]

I don't think double attack merits work when war is the subjob (unlike double attack gear).

I don't have any clear answer to the overall problem, though. Aside from certain level ranges where the matchup seems quite uneven (20-29, 50-59), it looks like both subs have some quite nice benefits.

I didn't know about the jump kicks, though. Neat. Do you get damage from both fists counted into the jump, too?

Yes you most certainly do get both DMG from each hand in the jump, with Brutal Earring the Jumps could even Double Attack.

[Lmnop]

Armando posted on this once, maybe he'll bamf in here with the exact math on it or be kind enough to find the link since I'm lazy... but 70+, mnk/drg gains tp statistically faster than mnk/war. And according to some, will outparse it. I think that depends on set-up/merits (for instance, I think if you've fully merited kick attacks that /drg will put out more for you, while /war benefits more from fully merited counter and just baring the brunt x.x).

I think wyvern earring is nice, and wyvern mantle is icing on the cake, but I still think I prefer mnk/war even through 30-50. 5% haste means almost nothing to a 2hander job who likely won't even get an extra swing/fight from it, but monks swing quick enough that you'll prolly get results... probably. There's still that double-delay-double-swing thing just like dual wield. Accuracy Bonus really makes the deal seem appealing though.

But it's not Berserk or the extra STR that makes /war so wonderful... it's still provoke.

[Spinnthrift]

I don't believe there is ever a *right* or *wrong* time to say now's good to stop subbing Dragoon. I do believe it's a case of weighing up pro's and con's of gear and sub choices.

Now - firstly (and I do not mean to cause offense by this idea.. but I've been looking at some things of late... and come to some odd conclusions)...

Take Monk/Warrior... brilliant staple of damage dealing.... however... as your gear gets better and better, you come closer to a point where Berserk is actually more of a hindrance than a boon...

How so - I hear the collective brain pop?

Well - putting it simply, there are times, when using berserk won't really net you any great gains in damage, as you're already at the point where you're close to the ideal damage/attack ratio, and the gains become less noticable.

This is more prominent at 75, with awesome gear and full merits (when meriting), but is also noticable at lower levels when exp'ing on VT/Low IT mobs - and using great gear for the level range.

I notice this a great deal when I pull my Drg out of storage and don't notice much real difference in damage between when I have 240 attack and 297 attack at level 40 in capped areas like Riverne and Phominua. I do however notice the difference in 25% defense. When I inevitably pull hate, I feel the pinch much more when I'm 'zerked than when I'm not. At this point - Strength mods seem to play a much bigger part in how much damage I can potentially do over how much attack I have, and using Berserk actually makes me drain the healers MP more than I would do without it, as I take noticably more damage, with not a great deal more damage dealt.

In my opinion - it all comes down to hitting that sweet spot of attack/accuracy/haste over all. There are times when fighting - that your ideal sub will be Warrior, to push your attack beyond what you'd naturally have in gear with Berserk, but other times, when Berserk becomes superfluous to yours and your parties need. At this point it becomes a debate vs haste/accuracy vs double attack.

Now, if your /Drg helps you land a multihit WS more consistenly with decent numbers, over a 'zerked WS with less accuracy, and allows you to put in more Str gear, then clearly /Drg is the stronger choice - however, it won't always be the subjob of choice.

Likewise, when you're at a point where you're hitting multiple hit WS's consistently with /War, but are lacking the attack to put out consistent damage without Berserk, then War comes into it's own again, and is clearly a stronger choice than /Drg.

Sometimes, neither sub is optimum - and /Nin or /Whm is more optimum for your party's needs - it comes down to testing and understanding of what your mission in Monk is.

The role of /Drg is not set in one place, but is part of the Monk whole. There will be times when the hate shedding will be more valuable than Defender, and times when Defender is clearly a much better option. Same with Haste and Double Attack.

[Bishop]

Attack is a diminishing return. As your attack is above the enemies defense, it would begin to make less and less difference. Strength's power is linear, meaning it's a steady increase in dmg regardless of your attack and the enemies defense. This is why at low lvl, attack makes a much bigger difference than strength. Once you get into higher lvls where your attack is boosted so high from food, equip, merit, etc, str plays a much more important role in the dmg output. This is the same with defense and vit. Because your defense was much lower than the enemies attack, you took a lot more dmg when you had berserk on.

Regardless, I won't be surprised if I get less party invites if I subbed drg due to people scared of unorthrodoxed subs and general ph33r of drg as a whole.

[Tirrock]

There are some exp camps where it is more benefitial to have counterstance on all the time, so the DEF lost by berserk isn't an issue then. As far as it goes...I barely take more damage with berserk on than when I do without it. I get smacked for 180+ a hit on VTs without berserk or counterstance up. I put both up and it goes up to 220 and my DEF is a solid 34...