Feet: Dusk, Unicorn, Amir

[pounce321]

I would like to know WHY some people are saying Amir feet are better to use than Dusk/Unicorn for TP gain. I have read people say Dusk > Unicorn and Amir > Dusk/Unicorn and so-on, but they haven't explained why Amir is better.

I know that the HP Latent on Unicorn will give reason for people to debate Dusk over Unicorn, but I want to know why people suggest Amir over both.

In one thread I actually read that Amir was just the poor-man's foot choice.

Most of this I did read on BG, but it is hard to get a straight answer from that website w/out constant derail and flame. I'd check into KI but that website is still too slow for my patience. I have not checked Alla WAR thread yet.

Thanks for any advice and reasoning.

[Sevv]

If they are saying that amir is better then dusk and unicorn then point blank the idiots. Don't go to alla for advice really.

Dusk > Unicorn > Amir

Unicorn / Unicorn +1 are great if you don't plan on taking any damage

[Solymir]

I would say, Ares's Sollerets > all of those, but that doesn't answer your question. From my point of view the Amir boots are better since I prefer to use my great axe and eat meat or other attack food. If I were to use 1 handed axe and eat sushi the majority of my time, then I could see an advantage in TPing in Dusk, and switching to Amir for WS. It's up to you to make the best decision for your play style.

[pounce321]

I dont generally like to look to Alla for advice, but i DID find this thread on page 2...

Allakhazam.com: Final Fantasy XI: Warrior (http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/db/jobs.html?fjob=4;mid=1205262845203932541;num=10;pa ge=1)

Its specifically Amir Vs Dusk. (its only 1 page long),I can't tell if what any of them have to say is general Alla garbage or if any of it is worth taking advice on?

I understand debates between Meat/Sushi and Haste Vs Acc can really give people a headache. >.<

[Sevv]

I would say, Ares's Sollerets > all of those, but that doesn't answer your question. From my point of view the Amir boots are better since I prefer to use my great axe and eat meat or other attack food. If I were to use 1 handed axe and eat sushi the majority of my time, then I could see an advantage in TPing in Dusk, and switching to Amir for WS. It's up to you to make the best decision for your play style.

You would be from about are's sollerets.

I dont generally like to look to Alla for advice, but i DID find this thread on page 2...

Allakhazam.com: Final Fantasy XI: Warrior (http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/db/jobs.html?fjob=4;mid=1205262845203932541;num=10;pa ge=1)

Its specifically Amir Vs Dusk. (its only 1 page long),I can't tell if what any of them have to say is general Alla garbage or if any of it is worth taking advice on?

I understand debates between Meat/Sushi and Haste Vs Acc can really give people a headache. >.<

I dont read alla threads so sorry, outside the server forums.

[eticket109]

I would pick Amir right now because it's free.

Dusk and Unicorn gear is going to plummet in the next few months.

[Sevv]

but he is asking what the best is not what he should get for the time being

[pounce321]

Its np. You dont have to read it. All I gathered out of it was just similar statements to what Solymir had to say. It came down to Meat Vs Sushi and whether or not somebody has capped merits.

I'll just play around with what I have now before I work on points for Amir or trying to upgrade Ares feet.

[eticket109]

but he is asking what the best is not what he should get for the time being

yeah, I agree Amir is best for the time being... but if you spend the money on either of the other two right now you're throwing your money away.

It's one thing to get blindsided like DRGs did with the Mezraq... it's another thing to see the market trend and go through with it anyway.

No reason to not get either of them in two months.

[Sevv]

yeah, I agree Amir is best for the time being... but if you spend the money on either of the other two right now you're throwing your money away.

It's one thing to get blindsided like DRGs did with the Mezraq... it's another thing to see the market trend and go through with it anyway.

No reason to not get either of them in two months.

Other than the fact that 1 people have to win the lottery, and 2 people have to pick the item. Do you realize how many places this drops from already? Seriously the bottom is not gonna fall the hell out.

[eticket109]

honestly though, there is no 'right' answer. as long as you're researching it and making an effort, you're already leaps and bounds ahead of most other players.

just remember for every player that thinks they have the most 'leet' gear, there's another player that thinks they're a gimp or an idiot.

[Sevv]

unless your rocking gear like taint then you wont get laughed at

http://beast40.com/FFXI/gearpics/gear.png

one of my ls 3 relic drks

[eticket109]

Other than the fact that 1 people have to win the lottery, and 2 people have to pick the item. Do you realize how many places this drops from already? Seriously the bottom is not gonna fall the hell out.

behemoth hide only has a few sources but in the end it really depends on the server.

pre-bonanza announcement, there was 1 hide up on the AH. two nights ago there were 21 at one point. the price has gone from 800k to 520k. It's hit and miss but a lot of servers are starting to trend that way.

rank 4 is guaranteed with 10 characters. the wife and I can guarantee a win without even touching our mains. most people have figured that out already. I wouldn't be surprised if hides drop by 50% until after august.

[Sevv]

behemoth hide only has a few sources but in the end it really depends on the server.

pre-bonanza announcement, there was 1 hide up on the AH. two nights ago there were 21 at one point. the price has gone from 800k to 520k. It's hit and miss but a lot of servers are starting to trend that way.

rank 4 is guaranteed with 10 characters. the wife and I can guarantee a win without even touching our mains. most people have figured that out already. I wouldn't be surprised if hides drop by 50% until after august.

Its an auto drop from KSNM 99, Drops in sky, Off behe's, and in one more place (I can't think of)

"The Mog Bonanza is a number-guessing game in which you pick a five-digit number of your choice, kupo.
Playing is simple! Purchase a Mog Bonanza marble (*1) from a Bonanza Moogle at designated areas (*2), then have the vendor inscribe your desired five-digit number on it, kupo. If you can't decide on a number, we moogles will be more than happy to pick one for you. The winning numbers will be announced at a later date, so sit tight and leave the rest to Lady Luck, kupo! "

5 digit number

so for instance 17000 or 99999 and in order to get the rank 4 prize you have to have the last 2.

Which means the winning numbers could be:

89736 or 99

Which means there are 100 possiblilties just for rank 4 so 1:100 to win rank 4

[eticket109]

Which means there are 100 possiblilties just for rank 4 so 1:100 to win rank 4

yeah... but 10 chances per character = 10 characters to guarantee a win. I have 12 characters between 2 accounts. most people I know have at least 4 or 5 mules.

[Sevv]

Yes i know how it works but its fine, im going to horde 10M worth of discounted hides choke the dusk market and make more gil.

[eltio]

If they are saying that amir is better then dusk and unicorn then point blank the idiots. Don't go to alla for advice really.

Dusk > Unicorn > Amir


I seriously hope you don't think it's as simple as you make it out to be...

Amir Boots are sometimes better than haste boots and vice versa. If you know your acc% it isn't hard to figure out. It just takes a little math to figure out. Whichever nets the most landed strikes wins. Sometimes hitting slower but more reliably is better than hitting faster and whiffing.


Kinda like how if you're wearing a walahra turban instead of an o.hat while fighting a thf mob you're most likely making a bad decision.

And lol @ forum chauvinism.

[Sevv]

I seriously hope you don't think it's as simple as you make it out to be...

Amir Boots are sometimes better than haste boots and vice versa. If you know your acc% it isn't hard to figure out. It just takes a little math to figure out. Whichever nets the most landed strikes wins. Sometimes hitting slower but more reliably is better than hitting faster and whiffing.


Kinda like how if you're wearing a walahra turban instead of an o.hat while fighting a thf mob you're most likely making a bad decision.

And lol @ forum chauvinism.

If your a serious Warrior and your having ACC problems... Then you are doing it wrong. Any day you wanna bring your amir boots to a parse, I would be glad to double digit difference you.

Lol @ not knowing warrior.

[ItachiKujata]

If your a serious Warrior and your having ACC problems... Then you are doing it wrong. Any day you wanna bring your amir boots to a parse, I would be glad to double digit difference you.

Lol @ not knowing warrior.

Not everyone plays warrior the same. So what defines you as a serious war? merits? equipment? with full haste gear (turban, dusk hands, swift belt, dusk feet, byakko pants), you only have a handful of spots left for ACC. Of course it would be great to have the best Accuracy pieces in the remaining spots but what if you can't afford a Peacock Charm, sniper+1s, toreadors, bomblet, etc? Does that mean you're doing warrior wrong? that mean you're not a serious warrior? that's a pretty narrow minded view you have there if you think that...

[Sevv]

Not everyone plays warrior the same. So what defines you as a serious war? merits? equipment? with full haste gear (turban, dusk hands, swift belt, dusk feet, byakko pants), you only have a handful of spots left for ACC. Of course it would be great to have the best Accuracy pieces in the remaining spots but what if you can't afford a Peacock Charm, sniper+1s, toreadors, bomblet, etc? Does that mean you're doing warrior wrong? that mean you're not a serious warrior? that's a pretty narrow minded view you have there if you think that...

When your comparing the three pieces of gear your looking at the best set up possible. Because if you don't in all due seriousness the best ffxi quote ever inc: "Shit is situational" Each piece has its own benefits or we would never have any choices right? If your at this level and you can't be wise enough to learn how to adapt to mobs and situations, then your not a serious war. Btw PCC is hardly and effort to obtain one, you don't need snipers +1 or toreadors or even a bomblet. Unless my base character is the Jesus of warrior's acc isn't an issue, if you know what you are doing.

[ItachiKujata]

best possible setup is situational then right? Against a highly evasive mob like HNMs or even just mamool ja thfs, an all out haste build will probably lose out to one with enough accuracy to make haste worth it.

If your at this level and you can't be wise enough to learn how to adapt to mobs and situations, then your not a serious war.

Exactly the point that eltio was trying to make and you said "If your a serious Warrior and your having ACC problems... Then you are doing it wrong." Seems like you're just contradicting yourself here to prove what?

Comparing Amir, Dusk, Unicorn in the best possible situation isn't really comparing them because you could change around the variables to make one better than the other... Not enough accuracy? Amir wins... At full health all the time, Unicorn wins... Enough accuracy and tanking a little, Dusk wins...

Seems like you're just trying to start an argument with no real points to make. And my point is exactly as you stated, you need to adapt to mobs and situations and that includes knowing when Amir will do more for you than Dusk or Unicorn...

[Lmnop]

Is the pissing contest over, yet?

Bleh. I think VZX did a calculation where he showed that Joyeuse was worth more than a dagger (for a dancer, probably) even when accuracy was super crappy. i.e. the double attack rate made up for crappy accuracy so much, it's absurd. I wish I knew what I was talking about because I know it applies... some how.

Anyway, acc is always a straight %+ of damage dealt, in the scheme of things. acc+6 is 3% more hits. That's 3% more damage. 3% more tp.

Haste isn't so linear (it took Armando like 4 months to finally make me understand that 50% haste = double speed, not +50% speed). You have say... 9-14% haste already? You're getting more than 3% damage/tp out of those unicorn boots. At these higher levels of Haste, I think you'll find that even @60% acc, the haste 3% does more than acc 3%

Greataxe? Axe? sushi? meat? I don't give a shit. Unicorn, statistically, wins if you're not taking damage and if the rest of your gear is haste (which is, unfortunately, the goal of every melee).

[Sevv]

best possible setup is situational then right? Against a highly evasive mob like HNMs or even just mamool ja thfs, an all out haste build will probably lose out to one with enough accuracy to make haste worth it.

Welcome to real endgame there are these amazing things called Bards, and sushi. I can man-ridill in full haste and be near acc cap lol.


Exactly the point that eltio was trying to make and you said "If your a serious Warrior and your having ACC problems... Then you are doing it wrong." Seems like you're just contradicting yourself here to prove what?

Comparing Amir, Dusk, Unicorn in the best possible situation isn't really comparing them because you could change around the variables to make one better than the other... Not enough accuracy? Amir wins... At full health all the time, Unicorn wins... Enough accuracy and tanking a little, Dusk wins...

Seems like you're just trying to start an argument with no real points to make. And my point is exactly as you stated, you need to adapt to mobs and situations and that includes knowing when Amir will do more for you than Dusk or Unicorn...

In all situations but full Hp Dusk will win out for endgame geared warriors. That is my point.

Is the pissing contest over, yet?
Almost

[eticket109]

What the hell? Am I on BG? My favorites must have gotten fubar'ed again.

[ItachiKujata]

Welcome to real endgame there are these amazing things called Bards, and sushi. I can man-ridill in full haste and be near acc cap lol. I thought the point is you have to adapt to situations? You might not be in a party with a bard all the time, why eat sushi if you have the acc already? can argue with you about this all day I guess but at least I agree with one of your statements which you seem to not even agree with anymore lol...

anyway, I still maintain that Amir still has it's place. I'm not saying it's better than dusk/unicorn ALL the time. I dunno but I find it hard to believe that @60% accuracy, 3% haste is better... then again 6 accuracy is probably not significant either... If you can find a clear parse that shows it, I'd like to see it. I'll probably be driven to test this out myself lol

[Sevv]

Honestly there are dozens of tests on BG

[Lmnop]

anyway, I still maintain that Amir still has it's place. I'm not saying it's better than dusk/unicorn ALL the time. I dunno but I find it hard to believe that @60% accuracy, 3% haste is better... then again 6 accuracy is probably not significant either... If you can find a clear parse that shows it, I'd like to see it. I'll probably be driven to test this out myself lol

Pretty sure this is one of those things that would take a lot of lengthy parsing to show any difference in. i.e. no matter what, the results vary so much just from letting yourself WS at 114% tp occasionally instead of 100%...

But I still think what I said is true. Which means I agree with Sevv. Which means I'm slightly terrified.

Random, oversimplified numbers:

20% haste, 63% acc, 1000 theoretical damage/minute (@100% accuracy)
20% haste would be 25% higher damage (1/.8)
1250*.63 for acc
787.5 damage/minute

23% haste, 60% acc, 1000 theoretical damage/minute (@100% accuracy)
23% haste would be 29.987% extra damage (1/.77)
1298.7*.60 for acc
779.22 damage/minute


This post likely has all sorts of unrealized mathematical flaws. On the off chance that it's right though, note that you're only losing 6 damage/minute. If you're dealing closer to 1500/minute (all of this assumes weapon skills are mysteriously absent), then obviously it's gonna be a bit wider of a margin (looks like 12ish, in fact :P ).

[Sevv]

Agreeing with me when it comes to equipping jobs, camps, pt set ups is fine, its on the ethical shit you should be worried.

[eticket109]

But I still think what I said is true. Which means I agree with Sevv. Which means I'm slightly terrified.

best
quote
ever

[ItachiKujata]

Pretty sure this is one of those things that would take a lot of lengthy parsing to show any difference in. i.e. no matter what, the results vary so much just from letting yourself WS at 114% tp occasionally instead of 100%...

But I still think what I said is true. Which means I agree with Sevv. Which means I'm slightly terrified.

Random, oversimplified numbers:

20% haste, 63% acc, 1000 theoretical damage/minute (@100% accuracy)
20% haste would be 25% higher damage (1/.8)
1250*.63 for acc
787.5 damage/minute

23% haste, 60% acc, 1000 theoretical damage/minute (@100% accuracy)
23% haste would be 29.987% extra damage (1/.77)
1298.7*.60 for acc
779.22 damage/minute


This post likely has all sorts of unrealized mathematical flaws. On the off chance that it's right though, note that you're only losing 6 damage/minute. If you're dealing closer to 1500/minute (all of this assumes weapon skills are mysteriously absent), then obviously it's gonna be a bit wider of a margin (looks like 12ish, in fact :P ).

ooo here's my take on some simplified random numbers :biggrin::

Given:
100 Swings
20 Dmg per swing
5 seconds delay in between swings and to start swinging
Total time = 500 Secs
Total dmg = 2000 DMG if all 100% acc
assuming no weaponskills of course just straight DoT

+20% Haste (60% acc)
Delay -20% = 5-(5*.20) = 4 secs
# of swings = 500 Secs / 4 Secs per swing = 125 swings
DMG total = 125 * 20 = 2500
60% accuracy= 60% of the swings connected
125 swings * .60 = 75 swings - number of swings you'd land at 60% accuracy
DMG @60% = 75 * 20 = 1500 dmg

+23% Haste (60% acc)
Delay -23% = 5-(5*.23) = 3.85 secs
# of swings = 500 secs / 3.85 secs per swing = 129 swings
Dmg total = 129 * 20 = 2580
129 swings * .60 = 77 swings - number of swings you'd land at 60% accuracy
DMG @60% = 77 * 20 = 1540 dmg

+20% Haste (63% acc)
Delay -20% = 5-(5*.20) = 4 secs
# of swings = 500 Secs / 4 Secs per swing = 125 swings
DMG total = 125 * 20 = 2500
63% accuracy= 63% of the swings connected
125 swings * .63 = 78 swings - number of swings you'd land at 63% accuracy
DMG @60% = 78 * 20 = 1560 dmg

Dunno if this is right or not lol... but I tried to think about it in more real world terms like you won't get fractions of a swing in there but only whole swings... this also assumes haste lowers delay directly by that amount...

so I dunno still not convinced that haste rules no matter what your accuracy is... I think there's a sweet spot somewhere that accuracy no longer gives good gains and haste does better... like if you plug in 80% accuracy with 23% haste and 83% accuracy with 20% haste and you'll get the same dmg...

of course I could just be talking out of my ass lol

[IfritnoItazura]

Too many made up numbers. :wasted: The only ones which should matter are the ones which vary, so that'd be Haste and Accuracy. Everything else should be symbolic...

Damage/minute = dmg/swing * swing/min * accuracy

(Setup 1) Haste (h1) = 20%; Accuracy (acc1) = 63%
(Setup 2) Haste (h2) = 23%; Accuracy (acc2) = 60%


(Setup 1) swing/min (spm1) = 3600 / (delay * (1 - h1)) = 3600/D1
(Setup 2) swing/min (spm2) = 3600 / (delay * (1 - h2)) = 3600/D2

D1 = delay * (1 - h1)
D2 = delay * (1 - h2)


(Setup 1) Damage/minute (dpm1) = (dmg/swing) * (3600/D1) * acc1
(Setup 2) Damage/minute (dpm2) = (dmg/swing) * (3600/D2) * acc2

To Compare:
dpm1/dpm2 = ((1/D1) * acc1) / ((1/D2) * acc2)
= D2/D1 * acc1/acc2
= (1 - h2)/(1 - h1) * (acc1 / acc2)
= (1 - 23%)/(1 - 20%) * (63%/60%)
= 1.0106

Conclusion:
(Setup 1) is better than (Setup 2); or,
(20% Haste, 63% Accuracy) is better than (23% Haste, 60% Accuracy).

* * *

If I did everything right, to compare just accuracy and delay of two different setups, it'd be just:

(Setup 1)/(Setup 2)
= (1 - h2)/(1 - h1) * (acc1 / acc2)


* * *

Incidentally, with more realistic accuracy numbers for sushi eaters, such as:
h1 = 20%; acc1 = 93%
h2 = 23%; acc2 = 90%

dpm1/dpm2 = 0.9945

Setup 2 would win the damage over time game.

[ItachiKujata]

well the made up numbers just help me see how it would relate to the real world but your way is easier to calculate :). So yea that makes sense that at low accuracy haste doesn't make much of an impact but as your acc increases you get a decent boost.

So back to the main topic, when would you use Amir, assuming it gave 3% acc. Lets say typical war with turban, swift belt, dusk gloves, haidate = 17% haste. He wants to know if he should use Amir or dusk feet.

If his accuracy was 85%, which is reasonable on Colibri with typical gear, he has two choices:
1. Dusk - Acc 85%, Haste 19%
2. Amir - Acc 88%, Haste 17%

Using your formula it comes out to: 0.9898, which means Amir is slightly better.

Bump up Acc to 90% and 93%, Amir is still slightly better if you just go by these numbers. The problem is this doesn't take into account the spell haste which would normally be casted on you. That's an extra 15% so with that taken into account:

1. Dusk - Acc 85%, Haste 34%
2. Amir - Acc 88%, Haste 32%

still 0.9952, which means Amir still wins out... the more haste you add on though and you see it make a difference. Of course the real world is quite different but it's not a stretch to see how Amir can be better than the 2% haste you get from dusk feet... the difference though looks to be small enough that it would be really difficult to parse... so yea I wouldn't knock anyone for wearing Amir unless they have a crazy haste build already and good accuracy...

Edit:

Redoing some numbers it looks like 2% is always going to lose out to 3% acc for the most part. If you bump it up to 3% then you can see it being better... So doing it for Unicorn we get:

1. Unicorn - Acc 85%, Haste 20%
2. Amir - Acc 88%, Haste 17%

1.0021, so unicorn wins out...

[Sevv]

The difference between your math and what happens in game is drastic tho lol. You can sit here and throw numbers out all you want, especially when they are not coming from the game but just what you think the stats are. There is a reason that dd's wear haste in any slot when they can, its not rocket science. The only time really unless your acc has dropped well blow 70% you should use amir, is possibly on weaponskills when you don't have better choices for the slot.

[Lmnop]

Well, no it's not. The math IS the game. And while it looks like I was wrong (I knew as soon as I considered posting numbers that Itazura would come in and prove me wrong, btw -- makes me glad I included the self-doubting "This post likely has all sorts of unrealized mathematical flaws" bit.), it's still true that the Haste gears wins out at higher acc amounts. (per the math of both Itachi and Itazura)

And guess what. I parse 85-90% acc with meat dishes. If you're using Sushi on any build where Unicorn is even suggested, something drastic must have changed in the 4 months since I've been in a merit party.

[ItachiKujata]

The difference between your math and what happens in game is drastic tho lol. You can sit here and throw numbers out all you want, especially when they are not coming from the game but just what you think the stats are. There is a reason that dd's wear haste in any slot when they can, its not rocket science. The only time really unless your acc has dropped well blow 70% you should use amir, is possibly on weaponskills when you don't have better choices for the slot.

How is the difference drastic? Haste reduces delay between hits, right? Accuracy means how often you hit, right? of course the numbers themselves are synthetic and don't take into account human interaction, weapon skills, etc, but we're just comparing haste & accuracy and taking out any other variables to do so. I think it's a good estimation.

Yes there is a reason DDs wear haste, I'm wondering if you know it... there's no disputing the fact that it helps DoT but only in situations where you have good accuracy. 5% haste is significant, so you see people wearing Turban over O. Hat. 2% haste on the other hand isn't so much so if Amir increases your accuracy by 3% or more, then it's better than 2% haste... I mean there's a reason people don't wear Blitz Rings over acc rings... for most, that 5 Acc from snipers will do more than 1% haste from blitz ring.

I'm sure the real world difference between Amir and Dusk feet is negligible on most merit level things anyway.

[LyonheartLakshmi]

The difference between your math and what happens in game is drastic tho lol. You can sit here and throw numbers out all you want, especially when they are not coming from the game but just what you think the stats are. There is a reason that dd's wear haste in any slot when they can, its not rocket science. The only time really unless your acc has dropped well blow 70% you should use amir, is possibly on weaponskills when you don't have better choices for the slot.

Yes there is a reason DDs wear haste, I'm wondering if you know it... there's no disputing the fact that it helps DoT but only in situations where you have good accuracy. 5% haste is significant, so you see people wearing Turban over O. Hat. 2% haste on the other hand isn't so much so if Amir increases your accuracy by 3% or more, then it's better than 2% haste.
That really depends on how much haste you already have. If you have 0 haste to being with, than Dusk only gives a 2% boost to DoT. If you have 10% haste, then it boosts your DoT by 2.22%.

At 70% hit rate (the threshold Sevv gave), Amir Boots would give an increase in DoT of 4.29%. At 80% hit rate, they'll give 3.75% boost to DoT. At 85% hit rate, the boots still gives 3.53% increase to DoT.

If you assume a certain hit rate without having anything in the feet slot, you can calculate a break-even point for the amount of haste you need where Amir and Dusk (or Amir and Unicorn) give the same benefit to DoT. If you have more haste than that, Amir doesn't perform as well than the alternative. If you have less haste than that, then Amir is the better choice.

If you're at 85% hit rate, the break even point is 43% haste for Dusk NQ, but only 15% haste for Unicorn Boots/Dusk +1. 15% haste can be achieved with just a WHM or RDM casting Haste on you.

If you're at 80% hit rate, the break even point is 47% haste for Dusk NQ, but only 20% haste for Unicorn Boots/Dusk +1 (which is very doable when you include haste from spells).

If you're at 70% hit rate, the break even point is 53% haste for Dusk NQ, but only 30% haste for Unicorn/Dusk +1 (again, still very doable with a mage hasting you).

[Mog]

I like how this thread turned from discussing feet to discussing lottery.