Ok I know I am going to get flamed by a lot of NIN lovers for what I am about to say but I honestly dont care, just thought I would say my two cents. 1) I am tired of everything is this game being fricken /NIN I dont want NIN I dont want to go /NIN all the jobs I want. (BLU,DRK,RDM.) all have to be fricken /NIN. (or so I heard) I am sorry but one job cant make you possibly god, there are only two good things that I think /NIN offers that is shadows, and duel wield basides that I dont really see the point in it. I think /NIN is so fricken over used and I am tired of everyone telling me to fricken go /NIN. It might be easier but I want a fricken challenge I dont want to be fricken god. So to all the people that hate me for not liking /NIN go try something else, and if you die because you dont know how to play dont be a wimp and go /NIN just because it makes it safer for you. Ok well I am done venting now. (yell at me come on I know you want to!)

You heard wrong. BLU use /NIN for solo, and RDM use /NIN later on for soloing certain things, and DRK uses /NIN for meripo. Most of the time, however, they are using different subjobs.

/NIN is a solo subjob, and a meripo subjob for certain melee. It makes things easier on the entire party, or while solo allows you to take on mobs you couldn't take on otherwise. It's a good thing.

And if someone dies doing something, and then goes to sub /NIN and succeeds, it isn't because they were being a wimp. It's because they realized that, hey, here is a really effective tactic. What kind of moron would pass up a really effective tactic?

I am sorry but one job cant make you possibly god, there are only two good things that I think /NIN offers that is shadows, and duel wield basides that I dont really see the point in it.
Yeah you pretty much nailed it right there.

So, cue a bunch of people coming in to abloo bloo bloo about NIN. It's a reality of the game, people. Just deal with it.

Just because it's a popular subjob, doesn't mean it makes people think they are god. Stop abusing hyperbole.

So, cue a bunch of people coming in to abloo bloo bloo about NIN. It's a reality of the game, people. Just deal with it.

Just because it's a popular subjob, doesn't mean it makes people think they are god. Stop abusing hyperbole.

I'm not I am running around WG looking for a party a few peopl examine me and go hey why are you not /NIN for? Then I ask advice to my LSs they say go /NIN on RDM. Then other friends, say go /NIN I am tired of hearing about /NIN. There are other good SJ that can be used with RDM or any other job basides /NIN. All the people on my server ever talk about is fricken how great /NIN is, thats all I ever hear out of anyones mouth. Its making me start to dislike FFXI because I dont want to have to use it, even if for soling reasons.

I also played FFXI 5 years ago, and I was a NIN and I hated the job so fricken much I only did it because of my THF at the time, I dont want to have to level the damn thing. I still don't see, and people still wont fricken tell me what is so great about /NIN

Also, if its popular, then why aren't you doing the popular things that people do these days? Why didnt you do what the popular kids at school did? Just because its popular doesn't make it the only useful SJ. It also doesn't mean it is good for eveything. I don't like following the crowed, never have and I wont start by going /NIN either.

I have to agree.... there is an over dependence on /NIN if they would introduce another job with dual wield it would stop atleast half of the people.

And alot of those so called "tactics" are really sad..... I hate all the "hey lets just nuke it to death with 6 BLM or SMN" thats not a tactic -.-

I'm not I am running around WG looking for a party a few peopl examine me and go hey why are you not /NIN for?It's none of their business.

Then I ask advice to my LSs they say go /NIN on RDM.Your LS is full of morons.

Then other friends, say go /NIN I am tired of hearing about /NIN.Your friends are morons.

There are other good SJ that can be used with RDMRDM can make use of many different subjobs. Most of your leveling life, those subjobs will be WHM or BLM. Anyone telling you to sub NIN in an exp party is a moron.

All the people on my server ever talk about is fricken how great /NIN is, thats all I ever hear out of anyones mouth.It's an incredibly useful subjob. That's just a reality of the game.

Its making me start to dislike FFXI because I dont want to have to use it, even if for soling reasons.If you want to intentionally limit yourself because you don't like a particular job, that's your perogative, but it's a pretty dumb thing to do.

I also played FFXI 5 years ago, and I was a NIN and I hated the job so fricken much I only did it because of my THF at the time, I dont want to have to level the damn thing. I still don't see, and people still wont fricken tell me what is so great about /NIN/NIN is incredibly useful for some jobs, becuase it enables them to take on mobs they couldn't take on without it due to Utsusemi. Dual Wield is another benefit, but it's not that fantastic. The shadows are really what it's all about.

Also, if its popular, then why aren't you doing the popular things that people do these days? Why didnt you do what the popular kids at school did?Do you know how stupid this sounds?

Just because its popular doesn't make it the only useful SJ.No, it doesn't. But you have it wrong anyway. It's popular because it's useful. It's not just popular because a bunch of people decided that /NIN was what the cool kids would be doing.

It also doesn't mean it is good for eveything.No one ever said it did.

I don't like following the crowed, never have and I wont start by going /NIN either.Whatever makes you happy, champ.

Every couple of months, this big debate about /NIN starts up. We can go through all of that, again, some more, or people can just accept that it's a part of the game and move on.

Also, if its popular, then why aren't you doing the popular things that people do these days?

if it's popular to save a lot of money by doing something that requires virtually zero effort, would you not do it just because it's popular?

Bluecat

I bitched about this myself a few months ago - but I've come to realize that there are a whole bunch of folks who play FFXi who hold efficiency as THE bottom line to everything. Abolute Efficiency.

With that perspective in mind it becomes a lot clearer why /NIN is so popular. It's efficient for some things (less hits taken means fewer cures means more MP for nukages/buffs/debuffs etc) and in terms of Soloing - especially RDM - /NIN rocks - I've seen vids and screencaps of RDM's soloing HNM's that parties still wipe on. How? /NIN.

Depressing but true - I say depressing, not because I don't like NIN (FTR I don't, but I don't like most melee jobs), but because its so freakin expensive!!!!! But after seeing it in action, I realized its inevitable....

Oh and for some BCNM's if you don't have it you may not make it (those dang crabs come to mind), cuz RDM/NIN dual wield with daggers and en~ spell is one of the best DD's for that particular fight - believe me, I know.

You can sub whatever you want... if you play solo.

You can still sub whatever you want in party play, if you're willing to deal with the impact it makes to your LFG time.

If you want to play half court basketball, but everyone else wants to play full court, well guess what? Complaining on a basketball forum isn't going to change any of it.

Honestly, if I'm WAR, I'm usually /NIN in a PT ... the same goes for THF. It lets me pull more safely, and take hate from SA or voke a mob off and give the tank a bit of a break with no harm done. BLU could use /NIN, but I'd rather go /THF for SA, though I have things to learn about that. If I ever get a melee up into the meripo range, I know I can expect to need /NIN (or possibly /SAM for Seigan / 3rd eye) for everything, and there, it makes perfect sense...

You'll want /nin for your Blue Mage at higher levels anyway. ;)
Same goes with Drk once you party with Dark Knight's around level 65 ish that are putting out good damage.

Red Mage, you will want Ninja at level 75 (only*) for soloing certain NM's.

*It's also usuable at low levels since you'll be able to use two wands with great stat bonuses, will only cost you about 20 mp around level 20.

Your highest job is umm... Warrior level 25? I understand it can frustrate you to feel like you will have to be /ninja for everything. You need to know though, there's many experience you have yet to take playing this game, and you definetely don't want to start out with a genuine hate for Ninja subjob without much valid reasons.

You will want it at some point. ;) Unless you don't care about your performance on certain things. (Where the issue rises that other people do care.)

Oh and Murphie, be careful on the name calling. :P

I'm calling people not even posting here on this forum morons. Because they are. I'm not going to be careful on that. Stop being ridiculous.

No need to make a drama out of it again.

Also, I said that as a regular poster not as a Moderator or so.
Closing that issue now for me personally.

How can you make a drama out of something again when it wasn't a drama in the first place?

By intarwob magic!

No really, about the whole 'I'm starting to hate this game because people want you to have this, this, and this sub too and I hate <insertjob> too much to ever level it' is what kept me from ever leveling Blue Mage and Dancer.

I refuse to not have all the good subs for a job, so in the end, I simply didn't level either one, because I hate the fuck out of Ninja. Not because it's popular or whatnot, I simply couldn't stand to level it. Didn't enjoy it at all, and I couldn't even force myself to sit through 37 levels of it.

And yeah, that started to weigh in on my 'DONE!' *hits quit button* decision at one point. But I can only blame myself for that really. Because I want to have the subs I need, but sometimes I hated them too much to even level them.

OCD Catch 22'd myself. Ftw!

Well, in a short reply to that..
I've already said this a little while ago in a post, after a while of playing ffxi it really doesn't matter to me anymore if I have to level a certain sub for a job or not. Levelling to 37 becomes only a tiny effort considering everything else..

That doesn't apply for new players ofcourse, but it might help thinking about it for a better view of the "long run?"

After reading the topic I felt like I was in 2005 again.

You know, there's usually a subconscious motive for ranting against /NIN.

They just don't want to spend the gil to level it.

It pretty much boils down to that hidden agenda for the majority that complain about its use. Its a consumable job, people hate consumable jobs because they're cheap. Here's the irony - /NIN is the favorite subjob of cheap players.

I see the purpose and the point of /NIN for some jobs, its just when people tell me to go /NIN without a valid reason I get a bit ticked off.

Seeking as COR/RNG:

"Hey can you sub /NIN?"
"Am I pulling?"
"No, we have a BRD?"
"Then why sub /NIN?"

Then I count to ten and watch thier brain implode. I won't sub /NIN unless I'm placed in a situation that needs it. Meritpo Arrowburn on RNG? Sure. BC on COR? OK. Soloing on BLU or DNC? Perfect. Party where I'm not pulling? No, I won't sub /NIN, something is wrong with the melee if I pull hate. If I do happen to go Zerg Crazy, trust me, it will die.

After reading the topic I felt like I was in 2005 again.

Note that you might have started around 2005. For the Original Poster it's 2005. :P

If that makes any sense. ><

2005 was a bad year on ffxi. Especially near the end.

Long post inc for those Tl;Dr people just skip and kick the taru on the way out.

Ok I know I am going to get flamed by a lot of NIN lovers for what I am about to say but I honestly dont care, just thought I would say my two cents. 1) I am tired of everything is this game being fricken /NIN I dont want NIN I dont want to go /NIN all the jobs I want. (BLU,DRK,RDM.) all have to be fricken /NIN. (or so I heard) I am sorry but one job cant make you possibly god, there are only two good things that I think /NIN offers that is shadows, and duel wield basides that I dont really see the point in it. I think /NIN is so fricken over used and I am tired of everyone telling me to fricken go /NIN. It might be easier but I want a fricken challenge I dont want to be fricken god. So to all the people that hate me for not liking /NIN go try something else, and if you die because you dont know how to play dont be a wimp and go /NIN just because it makes it safer for you. Ok well I am done venting now. (yell at me come on I know you want to!)


A few things just to clear up for you, on the three jobs you pointed out.

Blue Mage: Yes ninja sub is very useful to this job. In meripos many people will want you /nin for the damage reduction, tho sub thief is very powerful.

Dark Knight: Unless you have a Ridill with axe and sword merits please do not sub ninja. Ever since Samurai was update there should never be a reason to not sub samurai. You just need to learn how balance out seigan and hasso.

Red Mage: Never sub ninja unless you are planning to solo something hard.



/NIN is a solo subjob, and a meripo subjob for certain melee. It makes things easier on the entire party, or while solo allows you to take on mobs you couldn't take on otherwise. It's a good thing.

And if someone dies doing something, and then goes to sub /NIN and succeeds, it isn't because they were being a wimp. It's because they realized that, hey, here is a really effective tactic. What kind of moron would pass up a really effective tactic?

^- This

I'm not I am running around WG looking for a party a few peopl examine me and go hey why are you not /NIN for? Then I ask advice to my LSs they say go /NIN on RDM. Then other friends, say go /NIN I am tired of hearing about /NIN. There are other good SJ that can be used with RDM or any other job basides /NIN. All the people on my server ever talk about is fricken how great /NIN is, thats all I ever hear out of anyones mouth. Its making me start to dislike FFXI because I dont want to have to use it, even if for soling reasons.

I also played FFXI 5 years ago, and I was a NIN and I hated the job so fricken much I only did it because of my THF at the time, I dont want to have to level the damn thing. I still don't see, and people still wont fricken tell me what is so great about /NIN

Also, if its popular, then why aren't you doing the popular things that people do these days? Why didnt you do what the popular kids at school did? Just because its popular doesn't make it the only useful SJ. It also doesn't mean it is good for eveything. I don't like following the crowed, never have and I wont start by going /NIN either.

Your linkshell needs to learn a bit more about FFXI, not a flame just being blunt.

Also you never have to use ninja, if it ever becomes a major problem on you can always do what I did to level my dragoon during the LOLDRG days, I simply made my parties and was able to level my drg to 75 in about a months time (mainly because I hurt and out of work due to my injuries, but you get the point).

It is popular due to the simple fact it is one of the most effective sub jobs in the game for the majority of the damage dealers. It is also a major sub job for paladin tanking.


I have to agree.... there is an over dependence on /NIN if they would introduce another job with dual wield it would stop atleast half of the people.

And alot of those so called "tactics" are really sad..... I hate all the "hey lets just nuke it to death with 6 BLM or SMN" thats not a tactic -.-

People sub ninja for the shadows mainly dual wield isn't even close to the main reason anyone subs ninja.

I'm calling people not even posting here on this forum morons. Because they are. I'm not going to be careful on that. Stop being ridiculous.

People in general are morons, I'll allow it!

How can you make a drama out of something again when it wasn't a drama in the first place?

This is the internetz murphie

Stuff

TELE!!! I miss you ; ;

2005 was a bad year on ffxi. Especially near the end.

2005 was pretty much the Dark Ages of FFXI.

Also, I support what Dave said about being too cheap to level Ninja. I know it needs to happen at some point, but I'm too lazy to go farming for all the gil I need and I'm too cheap IRL to buy it.

While we're talking about /Nin being annoying, I'd like to comment on something that eats at me. BLU/NIN post 60 in an exp PT where they aren't pulling. I've seen some BLU capable of wicked burst damage with /THF, so whenever I PT with a BLU/NIN I want to send them a tell saying "What the fuck is your problem?", but I keep my mouth shut and leave that sort of talk to the Bard who knows your job better than you. I just tank stuff and lol at the BLU's parses, knowing that they could be doing so much more, but they don't bother.

P.S. If there was some sort of update that ganked BLU/THF then my last 4 or so months of laughing like an idiot at 123 damage Death Scissors has been in vain. Here's hoping that my world won't get turned upside down. >.>

Well, in a short reply to that..
I've already said this a little while ago in a post, after a while of playing ffxi it really doesn't matter to me anymore if I have to level a certain sub for a job or not. Levelling to 37 becomes only a tiny effort considering everything else..

That doesn't apply for new players ofcourse, but it might help thinking about it for a better view of the "long run?"


thats why I have all my jobs at 37, that way I can sub what ever and when ever I need to.

like as DRG, I sub mainly BLU, but I place in my search comment that I can sub anything, you just have to ask, and normally I get asked to sub SAM, so I do ;p

Also, Some people are forced to sub nin, not because they want to but because if they dont, they will be koed. Take myself for example, Main pald and nin, Full eminty merrits, now when i go play on my 75 monk, whats going to happen to me if i sub anything but nin? ....death....(party situation of course)
I like /nin so its not a problem for me.

Levelling to 37 becomes only a tiny effort considering everything else..

Not for me. I've been over that, but my job almost always had me working during good partying hours. It would take me nearly a month to get any given job to 37, especially after farming and gear, etc. (Hell, even on LotRO, which is far more casual, it took me nearly a year to get my main to 50.... I'm just frickin' slow at leveling apparently.)

I've heard you can solo or duo ninja fairly easily to 37 and thought of giving it a try, but I just never did go in much for most melee jobs. BST, PUP, and DRG were exceptions because they were also pet jobs. It wasn't anything specific to Ninja; I was able to BCNM Ni, and I had quested Ichi, or vice versa, I forget how that goes. :p I had LS mates that could craft most of the tools for reduced prices, and I was able to fish up some of the more expensive ingredients. In fact, I had been working on fishing and woodworking just for my eventual turn to Ninja, to make it a little easier on myself.

It was simply that I didn't like it enough to pursue it, even to 37. Same with Thief. I probably would've done both eventually, had I not burned out, but those two jobs really are among my bottom two so far as enjoyment factor goes. War, Thf, Nin. </3

TELE!!! I miss you ; ;

NEVAR. I think I seriously lost most of my FFXI info this time anyway. :D

OK, BLU/NIN I can see, but why the hell are people screaming at you to go DRK/NIN or RDM/NIN at your level? Here's a news flash for your "friends": There's this tactic in the game called "tanking". It means that one person tries to hold hate and survive so that no one else must sub /NIN just to survive. At low levels, this "tanking" thing is still pretty commonplace. If they've done a lot of meleeburns they may have forgotten about it.

Incidentally, DRK isn't a good job for a meleeburn due to actually having MP; as such, I wouldn't fault a DRK for refusing meleeburn invites and not having /NIN for them. (If you want to take them anyway, /SAM is a good substitute; not like you'll be casting spells in such a party anyway.)

What really floors me, though, is saying in an unqualified manner that one should go RDM/NIN. RDM/NIN is situational. It may be really powerful in those situations, but it's still situational. Bring it to any XP party or most other group situations and if you're not laughed at, I can only hope that this means that you could have brought, say, /BLU or something and not gotten laughed at either. -- Pteryx

I dont know why people say NIN is expensive. I leveled NIN on a budget. (Not counting Utsusemi: Ni because that is at level 37 when you stop leveling if you are using NIN for a subjob)

1) I did my research and found items that can be farmed. A great one is the level 15 Gassan Katana. Easy to obtain and the weapon can last from level 15 to 24 (this will cut costs because you only need to buy a off-hand Katana. A few other items i can think of are "Something"-Cez (Quest item that can be equiped at level 1 and is +2 Enmity) and Dash Sash +1 (event item that can be equiped at level 1 and is +2 Enmity). I wore these items full time, but I sure people will disagree and say the should be macro'd in.

2) Ask the enfeebler/healer of the PT to cast Paralyze and Slow (Saves on the Utsusemi). On a side note, I noticed (Leveling PLD, NIN, and THF to 37) people don't enfeeble at low level anymore. I actually had to ask the enfeebler/healer (WHM, RDM, or whoever used them as a subjob) to please use Paralyze, Slow, and Dia.

3) You dont really need the elemental wheel spells but they do help with enmity. I only time I had trouble with keeping hate without a few spells from elemental wheel was in the Yhoatar(sp?) Jungle. At level 30, a THF in the PT will remedy the problem in the Yhoatar(sp?) Jungle for the last few levels.

I sure people here will have more suggestions or a guide on how to level ninja on a budget.

You know, there's usually a subconscious motive for ranting against /NIN.

They just don't want to spend the gil to level it.

It pretty much boils down to that hidden agenda for the majority that complain about its use. Its a consumable job, people hate consumable jobs because they're cheap. Here's the irony - /NIN is the favorite subjob of cheap players.

I see the purpose and the point of /NIN for some jobs, its just when people tell me to go /NIN without a valid reason I get a bit ticked off.

Seeking as COR/RNG:

"Hey can you sub /NIN?"
"Am I pulling?"
"No, we have a BRD?"
"Then why sub /NIN?"

Then I count to ten and watch thier brain implode. I won't sub /NIN unless I'm placed in a situation that needs it. Meritpo Arrowburn on RNG? Sure. BC on COR? OK. Soloing on BLU or DNC? Perfect. Party where I'm not pulling? No, I won't sub /NIN, something is wrong with the melee if I pull hate. If I do happen to go Zerg Crazy, trust me, it will die.


Ok 1) I dont care that it cost a lot, all jobs seem to cost a lot anyway. (I know nin does because of certain things it has to do) But I dont really care that it cost a lot. 2) I dont hate NIN as a main because people dont seem to really use it as a main that much. 3) Doesnt WHM or RDMs Blink spell work as good as "Shadows" do? 4) If people shutup about /NIN it wouldnt bother me, but every time I ask me LS, or random people try to help me they always talk about /NIN. 5) I only dislike it because they wont shutup, people treat it like its the only fricken subjob there is especaily to noobs like me.

I dont have a problem with leveling NIN at all that is not the issue, I would love to have NIN as a main! I just dont want to use it on every damn job in this game. I heard that /NIN was never even really heard of a few years back.

I have also noticed that a lot of stuff has turn to crap in FFXI in the last 5 years sense I have played. A lot of jobs seem to be miss used for what they really are ment for. One is RDM, it is treated like a whm, but its not. I just think that this game has turned into Lazyness.

In other words, a few years ago, you wouldnt be talking about using /NIN for anything or making RDM spam, Refresh and Cures.

What I am trying to say is, what did you guys do before /NIN and why cant that still work today? Also to me making it easier, especaily in a MMO is being lazy. I would try again and again and again to kill a NM or BCNM with OTHER subjobs untill it finally died. I would not care if I lost some exp, its not like you cant get it back. It might be a faster way to get the job done, but I honestly dont want it to be faster I want a challenge I honestly thought people would. But I honestly guess I was wrong, if you honestly have a problem with waisting MP and healing durring battle I think that is dumb. Even if someone is /NIN you would still have to heal durring battle. I have pted with people that are /NIN and they almost die all the time. So I honestly have no clue why everyone saying that is a good thing.

3) Doesnt WHM or RDMs Blink spell work as good as "Shadows" do?
Nowhere near it. Blink gives you one shadow image that only has a chance to absorb an attack. Utsusemi: Ichi gives you three shadow images that are guaranteed to absorb an attack each, and Utsusemi: Ni gives you four. (There are attacks they won't absorb, but they're the same attacks, so Utsu is still better.)

4) If people shutup about /NIN it wouldnt bother me, but every time I ask me LS, or random people try to help me they always talk about /NIN. 5) I only dislike it because they wont shutup, people treat it like its the only fricken subjob there is especaily to noobs like me.
If it's really this widespread and you're not exaggerating for the sake of venting, your server and your linkshell are populated entirely by idiots.

In other words, a few years ago, you wouldnt be talking about using /NIN for anything or making RDM spam, Refresh and Cures.
As time goes on and changes are made to the game, people discover new strategies that work better. It's not laziness to use a strategy that's proven to be more effective than others. Completely dismissing /NIN ("wouldn't be talking about using /NIN for anything") is just as short-sighted and silly as trying to use it for everything (which is, in fact, stupid, but no one here is advocating that; just the morons in your LS, apparently). RDM is used as a main healer because it's effective in that role, and refusing to accept that role is just as short-sighted and silly as pigeonholing the job only into that role (something no one here advocates).

Nowhere near it. Blink gives you one shadow image that only has a chance to absorb an attack.

Actually it gives you 2 shadows. Both have a random chance of blocking an attack, not guaranteed like Utsusemi.

Huh. All this time and it's only half the waste of MP* I thought it was. Nifty.


* HUMOROUS HYPERBOLE*


* Not really.

What I am trying to say is, what did you guys do before /NIN and why cant that still work today?

We fought slower, and accepted downtime as a part of FFXI life. People want fast XP with zero downtime now -- hell, "downtime" is pretty much a dirty word at this point.

It sounds like everyone you encounter is trying to apply meripo meleeburn tactics (basically, how the majority fights things at 75) to low-level XP parties and trying to fight IT+ mobs with them. Here's the thing: that doesn't work. Only the three-shadow, long-casting Utsusemi: Ichi is available until NIN37 (which means 74 if you're subbing NIN). RDM doesn't get its awesome MP-recovery tools until 40 and 41, nor does it get Haste until 48. Even BRD doesn't get its first Ballad until 25; furthermore, while BRD can consistently sleep Ts, perhaps VTs if geared well, staged pulling isn't a sure thing on ITs. Gear and damage output aren't very differentiated at the low levels, so you can't count on sheer damage output to keep the mob bouncing between the front-liners. Finally, there are no imps and no colibri at that level.

Note, however, that even before ToAU warped party expectations, RDM tended to be used as a main healer in parties. It just also enfeebled (something that's great against ITs but pointless in meleeburn) and eventually buffed, and it wasn't inconceivable for a party to have a RDM enfeebling and buffing and a white mage main healing. -- Pteryx

I personally have a love hate relationship with /nin. I love it in meripo because It means the party can go forever. Being a RDM I also love it for soloing. I hate however the decline in skill players receive from it. However I do love the fact that they die fast because they have lost all concept of hate control.

RDM/NIN is usefull in a party situation. In rare circumstances. More specifically in pulling . Sometimes I have had to pull in a meripo and I always /nin for this especially on lolibri. In colibri parties getting a sleep cast on you can be detremental. Blink is 75% effective but utsu is 100%. Eating a sleep spell slows things down (especially if there is no one to wake you back up.

Other times I go /NIN to parties is in the rarity I am able to melee. (although Ive since prefered to /DNC, /BLU for the support they offer). In addition to this, once you have merited yourself and have appropriate gears, dual weilding wands with +INT/+MND becomes better than using a staff. I have 315 enfeebling skill (+10 if I switch into my crimson head) I don't need staves to land enfeebles on merit mobs anymore. So the best thing I can do is get some INT/MND and build the potency of the spells.

It is a very effective subjob for RDM solo/party play at lower levels and 75. But again just like I say for those who wish to melee 51-75 is staff time, and backlining is better.

It sounds like everyone you encounter is trying to apply meripo meleeburn tactics (basically, how the majority fights things at 75) to low-level XP parties and trying to fight IT+ mobs with them. Here's the thing: that doesn't work. Only the three-shadow, long-casting Utsusemi: Ichi is available until NIN37 (which means 74 if you're subbing NIN). RDM doesn't get its awesome MP-recovery tools until 40 and 41, nor does it get Haste until 48. Even BRD doesn't get its first Ballad until 25; furthermore, while BRD can consistently sleep Ts, perhaps VTs if geared well, staged pulling isn't a sure thing on ITs. Gear and damage output aren't very differentiated at the low levels, so you can't count on sheer damage output to keep the mob bouncing between the front-liners. Finally, there are no imps and no colibri at that level.

This has been a huge issue I've seen in leveling PLD so far(42 currently), people forcing endgame mechanics into mid-level parties. The biggest problem I see is no understanding that 'TP Burn' requires that DDs actually have hi-output WS', and at 40 the only one I see that has one is MNK.

On topic, to Bluecat, I really, really did not like NIN either. I just didn't like the gameplay more than anything, it was a pain to level...however the usefulness of the subjob is something that can't be denied, just suck it up and get it to 37, then never touch it again(I could say the same about any job, I've done it for NIN/WHM/BLM/DNC now). While the people you've talked to seem to misunderstand the correct circumstances for /NIN, the times when it is called for it is virtually irreplaceable in terms of effectiveness.

Someone(sorry forgot who) posted about how efficiency is so valued now, and really this is true, and it's for a good reason: grinding out levels is not the best the game has to offer. It's a mundane process you go with in order to have jobs that can do the stuff you actually want to do, to see storylines and fight big fights with your friends. There's 2 things that are best when done with maximum efficiency, leveling and farming/making gil, because those are the 2 biggest things that make people quit when they take too long to get done.

3) Doesnt WHM or RDMs Blink spell work as good as "Shadows" do?

Blink isn't as perfect as Utsusemi, there's always a chance one of the three Blink shadows can be bypassed and you can get tagged. Utsusemi will always absorb the hit if connected and shadows are available.

4) If people shutup about /NIN it wouldnt bother me, but every time I ask me LS, or random people try to help me they always talk about /NIN.

Ok, so your friends are stupid.


I dont have a problem with leveling NIN at all that is not the issue, I would love to have NIN as a main! I just dont want to use it on every damn job in this game. I heard that /NIN was never even really heard of a few years back.

Mid and low level PTs trying to employ high-level tactics and failing horribly is nothing new to this game. The style is different, the lack of thought behind it is still the same.

I have also noticed that a lot of stuff has turn to crap in FFXI in the last 5 years sense I have played. A lot of jobs seem to be miss used for what they really are ment for. One is RDM, it is treated like a whm, but its not. I just think that this game has turned into Lazyness.

When enfeebling ceases to have a point when mobs die so quickly and they're resistant to nukes, what else is a RDM supposed to do? You want to complain about the way things are? How about the way the were? We used to fight Crabs and nothing else from 50-75 back in the day, that forced a WAY more exclusive and elitist party setup than what we see today. RDM and BRD were mandatory back then - now we have COR, too and thanks to the adjustments and additions of SCH and DNC, they've become more optional invites.

Would you like to go back to the days where we needed one of those three refresh/dispellers for a PT or people wouldn't leave town? Would you like to go back to the days where getting 75 on DRG, MNK or THF was nigh impossible? I'd rather not go back to that.

Simply put, when you take up a job like RDM, you KNOW what you're in for. You know it has cures, you know that if you level a WHM sub, you will have access to all status cures and two tiers of Curaga. This will influence how the job is played. There's the option of absuing your role for invites and subbing anything but /WHM, but PTs won't really appreciate you for it, just merely tolerate your existance. I know a RDM that's been 72 for three months just because he's a stubborn ass that refuses to level a WHM sub because he doesn't want to be a curebot.

Don't want to be a curebot? Don't level RDM - simple as that. Don't fault the PTs that invite you for expecting to play your role efficiently. EXP/Merit PTs are about efficiency so we can move on to doing other shit.

4) If people shutup about /NIN it wouldnt bother me, but every time I ask me LS, or random people try to help me they always talk about /NIN. 5) I only dislike it because they wont shutup, people treat it like its the only fricken subjob there is especaily to noobs like me.
I don't have a problem is people don't want to sub NIN. If players want to sub something other than NIN, it wouldn't bother me. But every time I turn around, there are anti /NIN threads. I only dislike this stance because people won't shutup about how /NIN has "ruined" the game.

You want to complain about the way things are? How about the way the were? We used to fight Crabs and nothing else from 50-75 back in the day, that forced a WAY more exclusive and elitist party setup than what we see today.


This.

As elitist as FFXI may be now (and probably always will be-- the community hates anything less than the best), it has been far worse.

Blink isn't as perfect as Utsusemi, there's always a chance one of the three Blink shadows can be bypassed and you can get tagged. Utsusemi will always absorb the hit if connected and shadows are available.



Ok, so your friends are stupid.




Mid and low level PTs trying to employ high-level tactics and failing horribly is nothing new to this game. The style is different, the lack of thought behind it is still the same.



When enfeebling ceases to have a point when mobs die so quickly and they're resistant to nukes, what else is a RDM supposed to do? You want to complain about the way things are? How about the way the were? We used to fight Crabs and nothing else from 50-75 back in the day, that forced a WAY more exclusive and elitist party setup than what we see today. RDM and BRD were mandatory back then - now we have COR, too and thanks to the adjustments and additions of SCH and DNC, they've become more optional invites.

Would you like to go back to the days where we needed one of those three refresh/dispellers for a PT or people wouldn't leave town? Would you like to go back to the days where getting 75 on DRG, MNK or THF was nigh impossible? I'd rather not go back to that.

Simply put, when you take up a job like RDM, you KNOW what you're in for. You know it has cures, you know that if you level a WHM sub, you will have access to all status cures and two tiers of Curaga. This will influence how the job is played. There's the option of absuing your role for invites and subbing anything but /WHM, but PTs won't really appreciate you for it, just merely tolerate your existance. I know a RDM that's been 72 for three months just because he's a stubborn ass that refuses to level a WHM sub because he doesn't want to be a curebot.

Don't want to be a curebot? Don't level RDM - simple as that. Don't fault the PTs that invite you for expecting to play your role efficiently. EXP/Merit PTs are about efficiency so we can move on to doing other shit.



Ok the only thing that I am going to say is RDM can do more then Cure I didnt pick RDM to be a fricken healer if I wanted to fucking be that way I would of gone with WHM simple as fricken that. Dont sit here and tell me how to play fricken RDM. There is a lot more then we can fricken do then just spam cures, and you all have seen to lost track of that. If there is not a whm around but a RDM around when you need one, wait till you get a fricken WHM then, I might stay RDM but I am not going to be a curebot just because YOU say so. I dont work that way hunny, and I never plan to.

if I was to talk RDM to 75 I would go /BLM and I know plenty of 75 RDMs that have never even touched WHM so it is possible.

Back on topic though, I hate NIN plain and simple, so its popular, so its good, I could really care less. I think its a lazy way of getting things done, in my opinion I liked FFXI before all this shit came to be. Now its just to see who can get to 75 who can use /NIN the best and who can get a RDM to refresh all the damn time.

I am not going to quit FFXI because I like it, those are just the top 2 things that I hate about this game, and at times turn me off from it.
I am going to get my WAR to 37, get DRK and go DRK/WAR all the way to 75. and I WILL NEVER USE /NIN

Bottom line is you should have all subjobs to 37 to sub whatever benifets your group. If they want you to go /nin. The really you should go /nin. If you don't like it make our own pt with your own rules. But be warned players will remember.

When you solo you can go whatever your little heart desires. Go Blu/Pup for all I care.

Ok the only thing that I am going to say is RDM can do more then Cure I didnt pick RDM to be a fricken healer if I wanted to fucking be that way I would of gone with WHM simple as fricken that. Dont sit here and tell me how to play fricken RDM. There is a lot more then we can fricken do then just spam cures, and you all have seen to lost track of that. If there is not a whm around but a RDM around when you need one, wait till you get a fricken WHM then, I might stay RDM but I am not going to be a curebot just because YOU say so. I dont work that way hunny, and I never plan to.
This is going to turn into a Red Mage discussion...

I am going to get my WAR to 37, get DRK and go DRK/WAR all the way to 75. and I WILL NEVER USE /NIN
As mentioned already, you do not need /NIN for Dark Knight. DRK/WAR is perfectly fine if not the best subjob (at least until level 60. /SAM starts getting good around then).

This is going to turn into a Red Mage discussion...
Doesn't everything?

Ok the only thing that I am going to say is RDM can do more then Cure I didnt pick RDM to be a fricken healer if I wanted to fucking be that way I would of gone with WHM simple as fricken that. Dont sit here and tell me how to play fricken RDM. There is a lot more then we can fricken do then just spam cures, and you all have seen to lost track of that. If there is not a whm around but a RDM around when you need one, wait till you get a fricken WHM then, I might stay RDM but I am not going to be a curebot just because YOU say so. I dont work that way hunny, and I never plan to.

This is coming from someone who has been RDM for a long time now, and who has tried practically every aspect of it aside from /petjobs. I've at least attempted to use WAR, DRK, WHM, BLM, NIN, PLD, SMN, and even RNG as subjobs. And anyone who has played with me in game, and most of those who frequent the RDM boards here by now, will tell you that I'm am one of the least supportive of Pink Mage...that said, mechanics of the game are as such: RDM/WHM with a BRD and 4 DDs will see a shitload of XP in a short amount of time later on in the game. It's lazy, it's easy, but to be honest I don't care. I don't enjoy XPing because it's bland and repetitive, so I do what is easiest to get the most out of my XP time, so that I can spend more of my time doing the fun, challenging things in the game.

if I was to talk RDM to 75 I would go /BLM and I know plenty of 75 RDMs that have never even touched WHM so it is possible.

For starters things used to be different. I leveled WHM sub when I did BLM, however I used it maybe twice before I hit 75, because that's not how the game was played. RDM wasn't known to be the most efficient XP party healer in the game back then, it is now. I don't use subjobs because they are popular, I use them because they're effective. Again, why would I want to spend more time getting less XP, when I can get my XP, gtfo, and go do something less boring?

Back on topic though, I hate NIN plain and simple, so its popular, so its good, I could really care less. I think its a lazy way of getting things done, in my opinion I liked FFXI before all this shit came to be. Now its just to see who can get to 75 who can use /NIN the best and who can get a RDM to refresh all the damn time.

You're again missing the part of leveling quickly. It's more about using jobs like WAR/NIN to get faster XP and get to 75 faster, so that you can go WAR/SAM or WAR/THF or something else fun and do big fights and put up big #'s. As a RDM it's getting my merits quickly so that I'm better prepared to land that big spell at a clutch moment, instead of not being able to quite get there yet because my last party was too slow.
______________________________
This is going to turn into a Red Mage discussion...
Shouldn't everything?

FTFY. :thumbsup:

Ok the only thing that I am going to say is RDM can do more then Cure I didnt pick RDM to be a fricken healer if I wanted to fucking be that way I would of gone with WHM simple as fricken that. Dont sit here and tell me how to play fricken RDM. There is a lot more then we can fricken do then just spam cures, and you all have seen to lost track of that. If there is not a whm around but a RDM around when you need one, wait till you get a fricken WHM then, I might stay RDM but I am not going to be a curebot just because YOU say so. I dont work that way hunny, and I never plan to.
Well, as a RDM75, I'm telling you now: Don't level Red Mage.

Seriously, a RDM is meant to be flexible, and do whatever is best for the party/alliance. In lower level exp party, it's enfeebling and curing (and MB if there's SC). In mid level parties, it's an unpredictable, crazy mix of enfeebling, Cure, Haste, Refresh, and maybe even MB. In merit parties, it mostly becomes Haste/Refresh/Cure with minor enfeebling.

Once beyond exp/merit parties, things change up. On Kirin fights, that's one RDM (/BLM or /WHM) on Refresh/backup curing for the PLD kiter (and help out with summons), while another RDM/NIN play co-kiter. When duo'ing Aura Statue for Diorite, it's RDM/BLM (my sister) and RDM/SCH (me) for Gravity/Sleep/nukes. For Dynamis, it's crowd control as RDM/BLM or CS stunner as RDM/DRK for Xacabar.

In just about every activity I've listed, I use Cure spells. That's right, you need your Cure spells, if you're RDM. Cure is an integral part of RDM's arsenal--and is useful and used at every level from Lv.3 on.

If you don't like using cure, don't play RDM. It's that simple.


if I was to talk RDM to 75 I would go /BLM and I know plenty of 75 RDMs that have never even touched WHM so it is possible.
A RDM75 without /WHM is gimped. (Same goes for those without /BLM.)

Back on topic though, I hate NIN plain and simple, so its popular, so its good, I could really care less. I think its a lazy way of getting things done, in my opinion I liked FFXI before all this shit came to be. Now its just to see who can get to 75 who can use /NIN the best and who can get a RDM to refresh all the damn time.
A good NIN isn't lazy; you can't play NIN tank effectively unless paying full attention. A DD making effective use of /NIN isn't lazy--he's playing smartly.

First you complain about Cure, now you complain about Refresh (in a rant against NIN, of all things). Again, it's a sign to stop leveling RDM.


I am going to get my WAR to 37, get DRK and go DRK/WAR all the way to 75. and I WILL NEVER USE /NIN
*shrug* You'll find out, if you really level DRK.

Don't level Red Mage.

IMHO, I think this is the best piece of advice anybody can give at this point.

And, yes. I'm well aware of the ironing of my intent on taking it to 75 anyway.

I would recomend Blue Mage like everyone else does with the Red Mage issue, but Blue Mage is one of the most common jobs that use /NIN. Haha.

Suck it up. This is the reality of the game.

When enfeebling ceases to have a point when mobs die so quickly and they're resistant to nukes, what else is a RDM supposed to do? You want to complain about the way things are? How about the way the were? We used to fight Crabs and nothing else from 50-75 back in the day,
Well, maybe YOU did. Let's review some old school (by which I mean not just pre-TAU, but pre-CoP; it would be unreasonable to exclude RoZ since some of the genkais didn't even come out until after RoZ) exp camps, which are still around today (and usually empty) if anyone bothers to use them: (Level ranges from Campsitarus, because I don't trust my memory on exact levels after several years.)

51-54 CN beetles
52-55 Boyahda spiders
53-56 KRT bats, scorpions, beetles
56-59 Gustav crabs+gobs (there are relatively few crabs in this camp, the majority of fights are gobs)
56-60 Teriggan crabs, pugils, raptors (towards the upper end of the level range, the crabs are no longer worth pulling)
57-59 Upper Delkfutt's bats and jotuns
58-61 Valley of Sorrows raptors and giant birds
60-63 QSC ants
60-63 Onzozo coeurls and gobs
62-65 Boyahda crawlers
62-65 Ru'Aun birds; not the most popular because most people at this level didn't have sky yet, but people who went there usually thought it was good. Now mostly hunted by BSTs if at all.
66-69 Gustav bones and pugils
67-71 Kuftal tigers, cockatrice, wyverns
69-72 Ro'Maeve (Moongate) weapons and golems
72-75 KRT bones, dogs and ghosts
72-75 Ru'Avitau weapons or golems (this and the above were the original roving meripo camps)

Crab dominated camps are omitted; I concede they exist, but they didn't have to be the only places you went and usually weren't. Kuftal (surface level) was hell for a *few levels* and then you could *leave*. (Actually, as the above list shows, you could avoid it entirely, but aside from statics, few managed to do so.) Memory just blows it out of proportion sometimes. IIRC, I personally camped all of those except for sky birds (not having sky yet at that level range on my first job), some in pickups and some in statics.

In any case, the last of the crab camps (Boyahda steelshells and other stuff) crap out before 70. After that you can't exp effectively on crabs even if you want to, except with solo/duo setups that can keep milking steelshells a while longer. Of course, you could argue that beetles and crawlers aren't much of an improvement on crabs. But that still leaves a lot of regularly used camps.

CoP added Bibiki, Uleguerand and Lufaise - no crabs there (at least at high exp levels), just gobs, dhalmels, raptors, demons, ahriman, taurus (yes, really), giant birds and the nastiest rams you never want to meet. Again, I've personally exped on all of those (although the rams only once, which was enough).
that forced a WAY more exclusive and elitist party setup than what we see today. RDM and BRD were mandatory back then - now we have COR, too and thanks to the adjustments and additions of SCH and DNC, they've become more optional invites.
WAR, NIN and BRD are still the golden children that only grudgingly pollute their parties with the likes of WHM, SMN, PLD, THF or DRG - and even more rarely, PUP or BLM. Some of the favored jobs have moved - SAM is a lot more highly regarded after several rounds of major buffs, for example - but I wouldn't say that overall the dynamic of favored jobs and disfavored jobs has moved much.

At HNMs there's been even less change, and what change there is has been in the direction of even *more* /NIN reliance; even paladins are subbing it now (which they never would have seriously thought of doing before homam and w.turban and nine kinds of haste belt; and if they had done it it would have sucked).

And that's without even getting into the problems of handing out a free vermy and 10-15% exp bonus - but only in certain camps. (WTF were they thinking? Did SE intend the empire to lose besieged more often, or deliberately break their own game to sell copies of the expansion, or something else?)
Would you like to go back to the days where we needed one of those three refresh/dispellers for a PT or people wouldn't leave town?
Two, before COR. But are you saying you've seen parties leave town without one now? The only real difference on that front is that there are a crapload more BRDs, and a small handful of CORs (enough that you might get to party with one once a month or so, unless you are one).

DNC does a fair amount to reduce MP usage, but if you don't have a refresher, than any MP users you do have still have to sit. Which causes the dreaded "downtime" and breaks your infinity chain.
Would you like to go back to the days where getting 75 on DRG, MNK or THF was nigh impossible? I'd rather not go back to that.
Maybe not, although I think the dagger update and 2h updates have done a lot to help on that front anyway. (I can only assume you're joking about MNK - they've never been below middle desirability and were the gods of KRT in its heyday. THF did much better in the old days when hate control was something you wanted and SC closer was an actual party role.)

But I'd damn sure like to go back to the days when you could fight something other than lolibri and wimps, and not have people laugh at your exp/hr and desert the party; when people joining a party would ask what the skillchain would be and expect there to be an answer; when enfeebling was a party role and not a joke; when tanks tanked and DDs tried to control their hate because they could get killed if they didn't; when a defensive player (or even two) was an asset to a party and not a liability.

And, to return to the original topic, when there was more than one subjob at 74+.

Blink only gives 2 shadows BBQ (which are about 75% effective).


Blue curing is one of RDM's support roles. It will happen, infact 90% of stuff you cast will be curative. It is possible to go RDM/BLM to 75 it is what I did. But at 75 your better to go to meripo as /WHM or (/DNC if you want to melee). It just makes everything mesh so good. DS+ Cure 3 + Regen is the best post convert combo ever. Meaning more MP to use in your 2 spells (Haste and Cure "x"). Meripo as a RDM is a joke no matter what you sub.

as for /NIN it is only used heavily @75 Utsusemi:Ichi isn't overly usefull unless you are pulling. Dual weild is about as effective as single handing until level 50. Even then @ level 75 it is only used for meripo. (some gods etc are tanked pld/nin or rdm/nin) It is considered the best because it is. 4 melee all sharing hate taking no damage for 25K/hr backed by a RDM and BRD or COR.

You have to take what people say with a grain of salt. I leveled with whm's all the way to 75 which is why I did not ever /whm until then. Most of the time when people offer advice they offer it for endgame. It is automatic. RDM/NIN is great endgame, but generally not as effective before then (save certain situations.) BLU/NIN is great endgame but not too efective before then. /NIN in all intents and purposes only shines @ 75 before then it is a niche sub for most jobs.

Just take your jobs you want to go with.

DRK /WAR,/THF,/SAM or DRK/DRG (hate sheding is great)
RDM /BLM, /WHM
BLU /RDM (magical spell blu), /THF (physical spell blu)

Don't worry about nin for any of those jobs till your already sitting at 75.

And that's without even getting into the problems of handing out a free vermy and 10-15% exp bonus - but only in certain camps. (WTF were they thinking? Did SE intend the empire to lose besieged more often, or deliberately break their own game to sell copies of the expansion, or something else?)

By my understanding, their thinking was twofold: 1) they honestly believed that imps and colibri would be very difficult, and 2) they wanted people to try the new, "more challenging" camps anyway. They also seemed to be terribly afraid of manaburn (both as a party type and an endgame tactic) at the time, and overreacted to it in their design of ToAU content.

But I'd damn sure like to go back to the days when you could fight something other than lolibri and wimps, and not have people laugh at your exp/hr and desert the party; when people joining a party would ask what the skillchain would be and expect there to be an answer; when enfeebling was a party role and not a joke; when tanks tanked and DDs tried to control their hate because they could get killed if they didn't; when a defensive player (or even two) was an asset to a party and not a liability.

And, to return to the original topic, when there was more than one subjob at 74+.

Amen to that. -- Pteryx

They also seemed to be terribly afraid of manaburn

QFT

That is probably the most sensible thing I have seen anyone post in a very long time.

Ok the only thing that I am going to say is RDM can do more then Cure I didnt pick RDM to be a fricken healer if I wanted to fucking be that way I would of gone with WHM simple as fricken that. Dont sit here and tell me how to play fricken RDM. There is a lot more then we can fricken do then just spam cures, and you all have seen to lost track of that. If there is not a whm around but a RDM around when you need one, wait till you get a fricken WHM then, I might stay RDM but I am not going to be a curebot just because YOU say so. I dont work that way hunny, and I never plan to.

If you don't want to play RDM in a way that supports your PT, don't expect to get all that many PTs. Consider looking into taking BLM up to 75 (if nuking things is more your style) or BLU (if you'd rather be a sword-swinging caster on the front lines).

Oops, missed the part about you taking DRK up instead ... still, how RDM plays changes greatly at 41, and I really don't think it will suit you at all.

Two, before COR. But are you saying you've seen parties leave town without one now? The only real difference on that front is that there are a crapload more BRDs, and a small handful of CORs (enough that you might get to party with one once a month or so, unless you are one).

I have, but this is more a matter of the degrading general competence. Say what you want about 2005's problems; on Midgardsormr at least I had a competent party with knowledgeable players more often than not. Dunes were only about 50% crap parties when I started, Qufim 40%, Jungles 20%. By level 30 people had mostly figured out what was going on. I still had to fight with people on positioning and there was the rare party where I couldn't get someone to open Distortion for me, but I never felt like I was a member of an obscure elite just for being half-way competent at my job. People actually read my search comment before inviting me, other non-JPs actually had search comments. Parties actually would discuss tactics with you, consider different approaches for different mobs, consider how party composition impacted camp viability...

Today, most of these things are a distant memory. Those that aren't have gone from the general rule to such a rare exception as to be worth special note.

Maybe not, although I think the dagger update and 2h updates have done a lot to help on that front anyway. (I can only assume you're joking about MNK - they've never been below middle desirability and were the gods of KRT in its heyday.

I wish it was just a bad attempt at humor. More likely it's a sign of growing insanity...

THF did much better in the old days when hate control was something you wanted and SC closer was an actual party role.)

This is exactly why I steer people away from THF now. It's not a matter of what this update did or didn't do or the effectiveness of new equipment or JAs. It's the fact that what we as thieves DO has become obsolete in the new order. Our spike damage abilities are pretty pathetic compared to what any serious DD can do. Debuffs aren't valued enough for THF/RNG to have an xp party role in most people's minds (and we don't do that any better than a crossbow RNG would). There are plenty of other choices for pullers. Our signature ability is hate control. I can't remember the last xp party where hate control mattered at all to anyone. Huge SATA Distortion spike damage still looks sexy when it's not resisted, but unless you static with a SAM or NIN who's willing to open for you, don't expect to see many.

But I'd damn sure like to go back to the days when you could fight something other than lolibri and wimps, and not have people laugh at your exp/hr and desert the party; when people joining a party would ask what the skillchain would be and expect there to be an answer; when enfeebling was a party role and not a joke; when tanks tanked and DDs tried to control their hate because they could get killed if they didn't; when a defensive player (or even two) was an asset to a party and not a liability.

Amen to that as well, and an excellent post altogether.

P.S. Did Omg and Feba swap accounts a few months ago as a prank or something? This is getting weird.

Did Omg and Feba swap accounts a few months ago as a prank or something?

Oh man, I'd totally pay money to see that sort of hilarity.


if I wasn't feba, that is.

I mean, I could be someone other than feba, but that would be boring.

I think you all should open up a this is my opinion threads and agrue with each other there. serriously, deviate from the topic much?

blue cat, i feel you on your dislike of the nin or /nin mantra that seems to flow from the collective mind that is ffxi players. but as you can see in the prior posts to mine there is a reason for it. no it is not original, yes it creates ease where once there was difficulty, but yes there is also a place for it. as a mnk i prefer to go /war to anything i do unless i am expected to take a lot of damage. it doesnt mean i like /nin but it is required in those cases. so i do what i must.

take all suggestions with a grain of salt, what uses /nin has for you should become appearent quickly. and no you dont need to subscribe to the collective mind, but shouldnt say never either. thats like cutting off your foot to spite your toe. be open minded to others suggestion then use your mind on wether that is the correct option for yourself.

stuff.

This is ffxio the only thing you can count on is bitching and derails.

This is ffxio the only thing you can count on is bitching and derails.

And with one post, you manage both.

And with one post, you manage both.

Atleast someone got it!

This is ffxio the only thing you can count on is bitching and derails.
I noticed..

i just realized something else aswell, almost every thread at some point is consigned to the grave, and the surest sign of its coming is Sevv and Feba slinging one liners at each other...

and with that said let the one liner grab ass begins...

Ok after reading everyone's post I know why I really hate /NIN and am starting to dislike FFXI/MMOs. Everyone is saying," do what supports your party" etc. Ok first off this is a game, that you are suppose to enjoy. Meaning you are suppose to do what is fun for you. If a Certain job or /JOB is not fun to you then why the hell should you play it just to please the party? Thats dumb to me. Also, everyone is turning this into a RDM topic, that is not the issue, I have already realized that RDM is not for me.

What I am trying to get at, is this is a game, games are meant to be fun, some of you. (not all of you) have said to me you should level everything to 37 and SUB that whenever the party asks for it. 1) What if your far away from a MH when somebody invites you into a party? 2) Why should you have to stick threw 37 levels a job that you hate, just to make people in the party happy? Shouldn't games, and MMOs in general be fun? Why would you stick threw a job that bores you and that you hate just to please..a few people in a party? That just don't make sense to me!

This is the main reason why I dont want to do /NIN I didn't like /NIN then and I dont like it now, so why stick threw it just to make people happy?
(I also noticed I am repeating myself because SOME of you seem to keep missing my point.)

Its like a job in real life, I wouldn't apply for a certain position get that position then do something that is not even in that same position. I would quit that job because why the hell am I doing something that is not even my job? Why would I do someones else is job just to please the boss? I wouldn't! Same goes for FFXI and MMOs.

Ok after reading everyone's post I know why I really hate /NIN and am starting to dislike FFXI/MMOs.
If you're not willing to compromise on your personal preferences, then you should avoid activities that force you to play in a cooperative manner with other people. This is true whether you're talking about an online game or a team sport.

A few things:

I fucking hated leveling WAR to subjob level. I had to stay for four more levels for a static of mine to boot, because we couldn't find any tanks, or our tank was not at the same level as us yet. It was the most boring job I've ever played, and I'm glad I got it over with.

Level subjobs for jobs you like. Yes, even /NIN. Situational shit is situational.

Manaburn & Campaign are decent alternatives.

Learning to solo, especially for skill caps, is a big bonus!

/NIN is not the godliest subjob ever. Situational shit is situational.

I also despise /WHM, specifically for Main Healing Merit Parties, but as long as I've got my other skills capped and not the main healer for things like Northland Dynamis (NEEDS MORE MP STATUES & WHMS! /cry) , Gods, or whatever normally requires a WHM to do the cure work better, I'm not going on an insane rant about how the Astral Candescence has warped players' minds.

...GODDAMN, I HATED LEVELING WAR TO SUBJOB LEVEL!

o O chill out?

I don't see why some people hate WAR 1-37 so much when it's the strongest DD next to RNG.

Ok after reading everyone's post I know why I really hate /NIN and am starting to dislike FFXI/MMOs. Everyone is saying," do what supports your party" etc. Ok first off this is a game, that you are suppose to enjoy. Meaning you are suppose to do what is fun for you. If a Certain job or /JOB is not fun to you then why the hell should you play it just to please the party? Thats dumb to me. Also, everyone is turning this into a RDM topic, that is not the issue, I have already realized that RDM is not for me.

What I am trying to get at, is this is a game, games are meant to be fun, some of you. (not all of you) have said to me you should level everything to 37 and SUB that whenever the party asks for it. 1) What if your far away from a MH when somebody invites you into a party? 2) Why should you have to stick threw 37 levels a job that you hate, just to make people in the party happy? Shouldn't games, and MMOs in general be fun? Why would you stick threw a job that bores you and that you hate just to please..a few people in a party? That just don't make sense to me!

This is the main reason why I dont want to do /NIN I didn't like /NIN then and I dont like it now, so why stick threw it just to make people happy?
(I also noticed I am repeating myself because SOME of you seem to keep missing my point.)

I've come to the conclusion that "game" is a decided misnomer for MMOs. They're more of a self-contained online hobby than anything resembling a true game. Under this perspective, it not being 100% fun 100% of the time, and it involving more work than play, make a heck of a lot more sense.

Its like a job in real life, I wouldn't apply for a certain position get that position then do something that is not even in that same position. I would quit that job because why the hell am I doing something that is not even my job? Why would I do someones else is job just to please the boss? I wouldn't! Same goes for FFXI and MMOs.

Except who decides what your job is, you or your boss? -- Pteryx

o O chill out?

I don't see why some people hate WAR 1-37 so much when it's the strongest DD next to RNG.

That was meant to come off as a sort of a joke, Malacite.

But I really did find WAR boring to level, especially when people would seek out WARs as a second-rate tank in the late 30's to mid-levels.

If you're starting to dislike FFXI/MMOs, best to quit now really. Later on it'll be just that much more pressure.

But, such as the nature of an activity/game where it involves teamwork and other people. It may be a game, but it's not a single player game. Freedom is reduced in environments where you're expected to do certain things. It's almost like you're saying you rather use your feet to play Basketball than to use hands (the "ball" being the game, likewise, "FFXI" is the game).

People expect you to be flexible.

3 choices left for you:

Quit.

Find an alternative way to play (i.e. Solo)

Make static friends so you can create an environment where you're free to do whatever you like.

...

I'm not missing your points. But in this game it is not all about "you".

Ok after reading everyone's post I know why I really hate /NIN and am starting to dislike FFXI/MMOs. Everyone is saying," do what supports your party" etc. Ok first off this is a game, that you are suppose to enjoy. Meaning you are suppose to do what is fun for you. If a Certain job or /JOB is not fun to you then why the hell should you play it just to please the party? Thats dumb to me. Also, everyone is turning this into a RDM topic, that is not the issue, I have already realized that RDM is not for me.

What I am trying to get at, is this is a game, games are meant to be fun, some of you. (not all of you) have said to me you should level everything to 37 and SUB that whenever the party asks for it. 1) What if your far away from a MH when somebody invites you into a party? 2) Why should you have to stick threw 37 levels a job that you hate, just to make people in the party happy? Shouldn't games, and MMOs in general be fun? Why would you stick threw a job that bores you and that you hate just to please..a few people in a party? That just don't make sense to me!

This is the main reason why I dont want to do /NIN I didn't like /NIN then and I dont like it now, so why stick threw it just to make people happy?
(I also noticed I am repeating myself because SOME of you seem to keep missing my point.)

Its like a job in real life, I wouldn't apply for a certain position get that position then do something that is not even in that same position. I would quit that job because why the hell am I doing something that is not even my job? Why would I do someones else is job just to please the boss? I wouldn't! Same goes for FFXI and MMOs.

The issue with a MMO is that you are not just playing with NPC's, like in a console RPG, you are playing with living breathing people that have desires, opinions, aspirations, and pay to play just like everyone else. Now you have to deal with a slew of different personalities and opinions that might not even come close to what you feel or think. Your choices are to buck the system and do it your way while taking a lot of flack for it or to cave to the majority and do it the safe tested way. There are pluses and minuses to each way and you'll just have to take the good with the bad. If you are set on doing it your way then the best advice is to surround yourself with like minded people. Form an ls that bucks tradition and if you get a big enough one going you'll be able to make parties and do things your way with like minded people.

We all pay to play, and a lot like real life, the majority rules. People want the fastest way to do something with as little of effort as possible in the least amount of time....and that is fun to them. This leads to set parameters in order to accomplish the goal. Many times the "fun" is the end result but getting there is not fun at all. Kind of like eating ramen for 6 months because you are saving money to buy a PS3/360. Six months of that crap day in and day out is definately not fun but when you finally have that next gen console in your hands with a sweet game....it makes all the grind worth it.

Just because someone's idea of fun isn't the same as yours doesn't mean its not fun for them. We are all different and have different goals. Surround yourself with people who's outlook is like yours and make the game as fun for you as you can.

People expect you to be flexible.

This is the one point I don't agree with, and is arguably the problem at hand. People don't expect you to be "flexible". They expect you to adhere to rigid outside standards. Sometimes the wrong ones for the situation. -- Pteryx

This is the one point I don't agree with, and is arguably the problem at hand. People don't expect you to be "flexible". They expect you to adhere to rigid outside standards. Sometimes the wrong ones for the situation. -- Pteryx

Ooops. Yes that was what I meant, I guess flexible wasn't the best term to use.

What can I say? This happens everywhere. :biggrin:

Bluecat has a point, even though it's not very well put.

I work in what could be termed a large small company (non-profit). We have a variety of divisions but few enough people that some flexibility is always going to be needed. I'm part of the IT department, brought on to handle miscellaneous projects. I do various IT and programming work in support of various software programs used by the company.

Nominally, something like data entry would be outside my job description. We have other people responsible for this. One time, however, after a major site-wide software upgrade, there was some early morning confusion over the new system, and a couple people ended up working in the test database instead of the production database. This included a data entry person putting an entire shift's worth of time sheets into the test database instead of the production database. Given the nature of the front-end software, we were unable to migrate the records over in any automated way, so we had to manually reenter time sheets, and I was tasked with assisting with this since I was the most familiar with the new system.

In this case, emergency data entry for a couple hours fell vaguely within the purview of my job description, in that my primary duty for that week was to see that everyone got up and running on the new system smoothly. It wasn't an unreasonable expectation in that context.

On the other hand, if I were arbitrarily pulled off of my current project and put on data entry because a data entry person was out sick, that would be outside my job description, and such a thing being a regular occurrence would be grounds to consider seeking new employment.

Ultimately, the problem with most support-capable jobs in FFXI is not that parties demand flexibility. It's that by and large they always demand you provide a particular limited subset of your job's (or subjob's) capabilities, and that particular subset is often not what you signed up for. Worse still, those who survive this kind of treatment often don't learn how to do anything else, meaning that party leaders who would like flexibility often feel they can't count on said jobs to provide anything more than what the average party has ended up expecting from them.

For example, lately I've had the pleasure of being able to melee in all my parties from 20-30 as a RDM and as such I have been subbing COR.

At first glance people go :wtf: but then they are :shocked: when I start boosting all our accuracy astronomically with Hunter's Roll.


Thinking outside the box can be a good thing.

This is exactly why I steer people away from THF now. It's not a matter of what this update did or didn't do or the effectiveness of new equipment or JAs. It's the fact that what we as thieves DO has become obsolete in the new order. Our spike damage abilities are pretty pathetic compared to what any serious DD can do. Debuffs aren't valued enough for THF/RNG to have an xp party role in most people's minds (and we don't do that any better than a crossbow RNG would). There are plenty of other choices for pullers. Our signature ability is hate control. I can't remember the last xp party where hate control mattered at all to anyone. Huge SATA Distortion spike damage still looks sexy when it's not resisted, but unless you static with a SAM or NIN who's willing to open for you, don't expect to see many.
I steer people away from PLD for the same reason: it's the best in the game at doing something that nobody wants done anymore.

/NIN has a lot to do with the decline of both THF and PLD, IMO. It gives a huge reward to having hate bounce around from player to player.


P.S. I agree that imps and colibri would be terrible targets for manaburns, but if that was what SE had in mind, surely they've had plenty of time to realize how badly melee-heavy parties tear them up? 20% or even 10% more HP for those two mob families would be a step in the right direction (so would making besieged harder, so the Empire loses the AC more than once a month; having monsters auto-retreat after a certain amount of time was a terrible idea IMO). The risk/reward of a pierce-heavy party fighting those gimped (except against blms) monster families is just ridiculous and has been for a couple of years now.

...GODDAMN, I HATED LEVELING WAR TO SUBJOB LEVEL!

So did I.

This sums up my most prominent thread of thought through the slowest 37 levels of my life.

Well, I take that back, I did enjoy it for 30 seconds once. I did a Sturmwind that apparently had been blessed by the gods, because it did more damage than any before or after in my short WAR career, and half the party was all 'o.O'.

I kind of giggled then, but other than that, see above.

Ultimately, the problem with most support-capable jobs in FFXI is not that parties demand flexibility. It's that by and large they always demand you provide a particular limited subset of your job's (or subjob's) capabilities, and that particular subset is often not what you signed up for. Worse still, those who survive this kind of treatment often don't learn how to do anything else, meaning that party leaders who would like flexibility often feel they can't count on said jobs to provide anything more than what the average party has ended up expecting from them.

And this is the most sensible thing I've seen in a while.

I never minded being main heal on summoner, but I felt that I wasn't getting any real experience on being anything else. I felt as though I wasn't having a chance to learn -in a party setting- the best way to utilize the main aspect of my job. I mean sure, it's not that complicated, but it's always nice to have plenty of time/levels/parties in which to learn some tricks, what works best for certain set ups/how to make up for the slack of someone else, etc.

And then that usually backfires in an endless cycle, as you said, as party leaders who try to utilize some other aspects of a job can't find people who perform well at it, simply because no one else ever let them have the time to work at it in a party. And so you get stuck, (save for perhaps in things like Sky, which even if I had stayed in game and hit 75, I was never going to participate in) doing the same old, same old.

I steer people away from PLD for the same reason: it's the best in the game at doing something that nobody wants done anymore.

/NIN has a lot to do with the decline of both THF and PLD, IMO. It gives a huge reward to having hate bounce around from player to player.


P.S. I agree that imps and colibri would be terrible targets for manaburns, but if that was what SE had in mind, surely they've had plenty of time to realize how badly melee-heavy parties tear them up? 20% or even 10% more HP for those two mob families would be a step in the right direction (so would making besieged harder, so the Empire loses the AC more than once a month; having monsters auto-retreat after a certain amount of time was a terrible idea IMO). The risk/reward of a pierce-heavy party fighting those gimped (except against blms) monster families is just ridiculous and has been for a couple of years now.

Do you do endgame lol?

Meh, I guess I always got lucky when I tell my Summoners to go wild and just backup cure as needed, I've seen them do some crazy stuff when given the opportunity.

I've come to the conclusion that "game" is a decided misnomer for MMOs. They're more of a self-contained online hobby than anything resembling a true game. Under this perspective, it not being 100% fun 100% of the time, and it involving more work than play, make a heck of a lot more sense.
That's been said about video game RPGs in general, whether it's online multi-player or offline single player.

The risk/reward of a pierce-heavy party fighting those gimped (except against blms) monster families is just ridiculous and has been for a couple of years now.

And years before that, the mobs we favored crabs, which were somewhat resistant to most damage types and favored targets because they were easy to tank and not terribly magic resistant, though they required dispellers.

And guess what - Warrior, Dragoon, Monk, Thief and a lot of melees were shit out of luck for a party invite because tanks and mages were too scared to fight anything else but a crab. DD slot in PT was usually two members tops. Three slots for mages and one for tank.

Unless SE comes up a better balancing of risk/reward with mobs, people will conform to the path that is easiest to them. The jobs that got big heads back in RoZ/CoP are now the ones not getting invited or are no longer invited for thier specialization.

I wonder if I'll get flak for saying that Ninja is my favorite job in the game and that you guys are way too bitchy about it's usefulness and other crap? You guys need to get a grip lol

I wonder if I'll get flak for saying that Ninja is my favorite job in the game and that you guys are way too bitchy about it's usefulness and other crap? You guys need to get a grip lol

You'll "get flak" for having a cheek more likely than not.

Personally, it's not so much that I hate /nin, but the fact that people think it's the ONLY good subjob and they turn a blind eye to everything else...tends to piss me off.

Meh, I guess I always got lucky when I tell my Summoners to go wild and just backup cure as needed, I've seen them do some crazy stuff when given the opportunity.
We can. :p I had a leader that when I was invited said 'Okay. You're here for DD/support. Only heal if we absolutely need it. I want to see what you can do.' Most fun party of my career. I was opening/closing SC's, MB'ing other SC's, keeping up a steady buff rotation, all kinds of things. I swear it's one of the few times I actually had fun in a party. I had a few other parties that had me on more of a MB/Buff duty, but that was the only one where the leader more or less told me not to heal. I'm guessing he was a summoner on the side. XD That or he really was just curious about how the job performed in some niche other than heal.

At least you Summoners got to use your Summoning Skill to an extent when main healing. :P

The nice thing about SMN is that it's so easy to set up a Distortion SC, among others ... call Carby, use pact, and watch somebody with some experience in SCing go to town (and it could well be that THF who really wants to SATA on to the tank ... and maybe even set up a MB if you have a BLM by some miracle!)

>.< this isnt a smn or rdm thread....

i dislike /nin because as a mnk it makes my hits and def weaker. evade does little to nothing for me and its hard to pay attention to shadows when you are looking at timing a skill chain or seeing which abilities are ready for use. mnks have alot of abilities and i use them often, probably more then i should, but that is my play style. /nin has value in certain situations, but even then as long as i have a healer around i would still prefer /war

>.< this isnt a smn or rdm thread....

i dislike /nin because as a mnk it makes my hits and def weaker. evade does little to nothing for me and its hard to pay attention to shadows when you are looking at timing a skill chain or seeing which abilities are ready for use. mnks have alot of abilities and i use them often, probably more then i should, but that is my play style. /nin has value in certain situations, but even then as long as i have a healer around i would still prefer /war

If you have to wait 10 minutes after every battle because a healer spend all MP on you, you wouldn't prefer Warrior. ^^; Yes timing can be a pain.. But note this: We all know that /ninja for Monk (and some other jobs) are downpowering the job. But you can try out /warrior sometimes.. Even though you put out a lot more damage, it will still affect your experience points rate.:( And that's not even mentioning your increased risk of death.

Don't worry, you'll get to play Monk at it's highest potential later during TP Burn events and such. ;)

1-75 i lvled mnk/war. at 75 suddenly everyone wanted /nin. so i lvled nin to 40. as a nin playing nin i thought it was ok. i simply dont like how /nin makes my mnk punch for 69-89 per fist instead of the 122ish per fist with /war. granted i can equip gear to make up for this to a certain extent, but have you seen how damn diffuclt to get/expensive that crap is? i mean you almost have to live the game to ever be able to afford the time/gil to get any of it. i dont have that much free time.

then there is a side bonus to going to a party /war...
the tank and healers have to actually earn thier xp for a change. bunch of slackers they are.... :P

>.< this isnt a smn or rdm thread....

i dislike /nin because as a mnk it makes my hits and def weaker. evade does little to nothing for me and its hard to pay attention to shadows when you are looking at timing a skill chain or seeing which abilities are ready for use. mnks have alot of abilities and i use them often

._. Not that I don't understand where you're coming from, but amount of juggling a MNK/NIN must do just doesn't compare to say, PLD/NIN, much less RDM/anything. You trade three abilities (Berserk, Defender, Warcry--don't think most MNK/WAR's use Provoke) for two spells in combat (Utusemi: Ichi and Ni); it's not that much more complicated, IMO, nor much more difficult.

._. Not that I don't understand where you're coming from, but amount of juggling a MNK/NIN must do just doesn't compare to say, PLD/NIN, much less RDM/anything. You trade three abilities (Berserk, Defender, Warcry--don't think most MNK/WAR's use Provoke) for two spells in combat (Utusemi: Ichi and Ni); it's not that much more complicated, IMO, nor much more difficult.

sorry you seem to have misunderstood me there. it isnt that the macros juggling is difficult, it is that i tend to surf my menus looking for any skill i can pop as soon as it comes back up. now just to clarify with out going to indepth into mnks (this isn't a mnk thread either), i find there are two styles of playing. one you kinda slouch back in your chair staring at the text log for shadow use and hit a couple macros through the fight. or you play like me,sitting forward in your chair, constantly looking for another ability to use, and always surfing your menus. but again that is my play style. aggressive...

which is why i fell in love with mnk in the first place. /nin makes it :wtf:

sorry you seem to have misunderstood me there. it isnt that the macros juggling is difficult, it is that i tend to surf my menus looking for any skill i can pop as soon as it comes back up. now just to clarify with out going to indepth into mnks (this isn't a mnk thread either),

recast....macro

Also, you sound like the DD I stop hasting about 15/20 minutes into the party so we can get higher chains and more exp. Efficient healing is as much in a DDs control as it is in mine as the whm. I love when DDs deliberately step past the hate line, cost the healer an extra 100-200mp in a fight (and usually resting time too) then get annoyed with low chains.

Like it or not part of being a good DD is either keeping under someone elses hate line or mitigating damage well if you get hate while doing good damage. You don't necessarily do that by spamming your abilities as soon as they become available.

>.< this isnt a smn or rdm thread....

i dislike /nin because as a mnk it makes my hits and def weaker. evade does little to nothing for me and its hard to pay attention to shadows when you are looking at timing a skill chain or seeing which abilities are ready for use.
If you're tanking the mob so often that you find that it's hard to keep your shadows up and pay attention Chakra/Dodge recast timers, then that's all the more reason to sub NIN. Just imagine what it would be like with /WAR in that situation. Not only are you pulling more hate through the extra damage from Berserk, Double Attack and Attack Bonus, but you have nothing to mitigate that damage you are now taking without Utsusemi.

Though I don't see why you have to watch your JA timers so closely. You can basically just make one macro to fire off any of your JAs that have a timer longer than a minute, and hit it at the start of every fight.

Hopefully you aren't watching Boost so closely that you're firing it off every 15 seconds. That does more to generate enmity than it does to actually increase your damage output.

then there is a side bonus to going to a party /war...
the tank and healers have to actually earn thier xp for a change. bunch of slackers they are....
Yeah, like being a MNK requires so much work that you are "earning your xp". There's a reason why MNK is the butt of most auto-attack and just watch TV jokes.

If anything, having to pay attention to shadows (which isn't that hard if you're not trying to be full time blink tank) brings you as a DD closer to having to work as much as the tank, healer, support, and puller (which I contend has to be the hardest working pt member).

And years before that, the mobs we favored crabs, which were somewhat resistant to most damage types and favored targets because they were easy to tank and not terribly magic resistant, though they required dispellers.
Didn't I debunk this once already on this very same thread? There were lots of non-crab camps in regular use - VoS, Kuftal depths, moongate to name only a few.

Crabs were favored targets *in the 50s* primarily because of overhunting. Overhunting a crab leads to a slow frustrating fight that isn't really worth it in exp/hr terms. Overhunting a scorpion will probably kill someone, maybe the whole party. There's something about the way player and mob abilities grow with level that made the 50s particularly vulnerable to this, so unless you were lucky enough to have a static with the brains to go to KRT instead, crabs were just plain safer to fight with players of unknown skill.

Fighting *appropriate* level scorpions with a *competent party* is better exp than fighting crabs of any level, but if you don't trust your tank or you're in a camp that's too high level for you, dangerous mobs are dangerous.
And guess what - Warrior, Dragoon, Monk, Thief and a lot of melees were shit out of luck for a party invite because tanks and mages were too scared to fight anything else but a crab. DD slot in PT was usually two members tops. Three slots for mages and one for tank.
If by mages you include bard, yeah (cor not existing back then). Fighting crabs without a blm is just dumb. But it wasn't the tanks (IMX) who were afraid of mobs with attack - it was the DDs (including blms) that couldn't control their hate and could get one-shotted by anything more dangerous than Big Scissors. That, and people who obsessed about downtime without realizing that long fights are just as destructive to your overall exp/hr.

I'd much rather compete for 2 party slots (not counting the blm slot, even though blm is also a DD) than compete for 0 party slots (that's how many slots there are for dedicated tanks in a modern party, or for nukers). And I'm surprised you'd mention thief given how much *more* screwed they are today. They're a gimpy vanilla DD instead of the masters of SC closing and hate control they were designed to be.

There was a tremendous glut of players who just wanted to hit things and wouldn't play any other sort of job no matter what was actually needed. Some of them have left, some of them have branched out and some are still around meleeburning colibri every night, but the population pressure of too many DD players was created by the players, not by SE. Traditional parties had some room for any type of job. If there had been a huge glut of people who wanted to play healers do you think SE should have created healburn parties? Demographics are no excuse for screwing up balance (let alone making party coordination and teamwork unnecessary or actually counterproductive - the SC/MB dynamic actually distinguished FFXI from other MMOs where people just stood around and whaled on the same mob until it died and that was considered teamwork. Now FFXI *is* one of those games.)

In any case, you're talking about the early days of RoZ (or the 50s specifically). Once roving shrine parties started up, BLMs were out (except for manaburn) and four NINs and WAR/NINs, BRD and mage were in. In KRT it was monks, but otherwise the same - little backline, no tank. Even then, it was apparent that faster kills meant faster exp, if you could manage to not get killed, which creates a lot of downtime; but it could be limited by mob availability, because there weren't any camps with super-abundant supplies of weak, low hp, fast-respawning mobs.


One more thing on this issue: If players used a mix of old and new camps depending on what party members were available to them, this wouldn't even be an issue. I think this was probably what SE actually had in mind by creating meleeburnable mobs. Parties with a tank, SC and BLM go for one type of mobs, parties with a bunch of DDs and few mages go for another type of mobs, everybody's happy, right? Wrong, and we all know why: huge disparity in exp/hr achievable at those camps. Both pt styles need a support pt member and why would they accept half (or less) the exp/hr going to an old camp? Balance the exp/hr rates between the various types of camps and the problems would be far less severe. Manaburns and arrowburns aren't really a problem if they make the same exp as anyone else - it's only when they make fantastically more that it's a balance issue. Ditto for meleeburns, but SE dropped the ball big time with TAU on balance between different camps and pt styles, and in the several *years* since then, they still haven't fixed it effectively.
Unless SE comes up a better balancing of risk/reward with mobs, people will conform to the path that is easiest to them. The jobs that got big heads back in RoZ/CoP are now the ones not getting invited or are no longer invited for thier specialization.
Except for nin, war/nin and bard, of course. Their godlike status never changes.

You seem to imply that replacing one problem with a different problem (maybe worse, maybe not as bad) is just fine and expecting an actual *solution* is unrealistic or something. Why? I understand why a brd or cor might think that other jobs come and go, but the game keeps moving along - because for them, that's exactly what happens. But for the jobs that were overpopulated before, or the ones that are completely unwanted in *any* quantity now, it's not so easy to be philosophical about it. Robbing Peter to pay Paul is not a fix, no matter how much Paul supports it.

This has wandered from /nin a bit - but only a bit, because without utsusemi, those meleeburns would often be piles of corpses. 0-mp invulnerability is a big help if you want to get rid of healers and tanks from your party to cram in more DDs.

recast....macro

Also, you sound like the DD I stop hasting about 15/20 minutes into the party so we can get higher chains and more exp. Efficient healing is as much in a DDs control as it is in mine as the whm. I love when DDs deliberately step past the hate line, cost the healer an extra 100-200mp in a fight (and usually resting time too) then get annoyed with low chains.

Like it or not part of being a good DD is either keeping under someone elses hate line or mitigating damage well if you get hate while doing good damage. You don't necessarily do that by spamming your abilities as soon as they become available.

another county heard from... whm's sheesh, silly creatures they are.:biggrin:

ok when i play i do exactly what the party wants. i dont like to play this way because it sucks to put out less damage then i know i can. on the other side of that coin i know when i can hit the skill/ability and when i should back off for hate control. my point is that the play is more intense when i feel like im interacting with the character instead of using 3-4 macros and drooling upon myself for the remainder of the fight. but i do play with hate control and shadows if that is what the party wants. on occasion i'll go a little overboard just to make sure the whm and tanks are well exercised but i know how to handle my job... and i do it well.

sorry you seem to have misunderstood me there. it isnt that the macros juggling is difficult, it is that i tend to surf my menus looking for any skill i can pop as soon as it comes back up.

/recast "Focus"
/target <stpc>
/ja "Focus" <me>

One press to check timer. Press again if you want to activate. Hit cancel button on controller (or Esc key) if you want to wait, and not activate now.

Or, just have one macro which lists all the job abilities' recast, as Saren suggested.


now just to clarify with out going to indepth into mnks (this isn't a mnk thread either), i find there are two styles of playing. one you kinda slouch back in your chair staring at the text log for shadow use and hit a couple macros through the fight. or you play like me,sitting forward in your chair, constantly looking for another ability to use, and always surfing your menus. but again that is my play style. aggressive...
Don't really see the difference; one is checking ability menu constantly, one is checking chat log constantly. I'd combined them, and put recast info on the chat log with macros.

which is why i fell in love with mnk in the first place. /nin makes it :wtf:
*shrug* A friend of mine on MNK/NIN tanked most of the prime avatars for me; he couldn't have done it on MNK/WAR, I think.

Did most of those as RDM, but for one fight I happened to be on PLD/WAR, with all the defense and enmity gear (for ToAU44 fight) I had. Two-third of the way through the fight, my Provoke simply stopped working. I hit Berserk and let my MNK friend tank the rest of the way; too bad I didn't have any DD gear or food on me at the time.


MNK/NIN is a useful and powerful combo, that's for sure.

If you're tanking the mob so often that you find that it's hard to keep your shadows up and pay attention Chakra/Dodge recast timers, then that's all the more reason to sub NIN. Just imagine what it would be like with /WAR in that situation. Not only are you pulling more hate through the extra damage from Berserk, Double Attack and Attack Bonus, but you have nothing to mitigate that damage you are now taking without Utsusemi.

i understand your point more then you seem to think. doesn't mean i have to like it.

Though I don't see why you have to watch your JA timers so closely. You can basically just make one macro to fire off any of your JAs that have a timer longer than a minute, and hit it at the start of every fight.

Macros make me feel like a bystander, not a member of the party. and yes i do use macros. i like the feel of controling my character though. so tend to surf the menus, its not a have to type thing. just my preference.

Hopefully you aren't watching Boost so closely that you're firing it off every 15 seconds. That does more to generate enmity than it does to actually increase your damage output.

boost before ws only thanks.

Yeah, like being a MNK requires so much work that you are "earning your xp". There's a reason why MNK is the butt of most auto-attack and just watch TV jokes.

If anything, having to pay attention to shadows (which isn't that hard if you're not trying to be full time blink tank) brings you as a DD closer to having to work as much as the tank, healer, support, and puller (which I contend has to be the hardest working pt member).

was a joke poking fun at them not dissing them. goodness ppl need to lighten up. my girls a whm my best friend is a rdm, and i have been known to step into a tanking job from time to time. both nin and pld. i know how hard they work... and pullers are sissies

>.< this isnt a smn or rdm thread....
It's not a monk thread either. Please hold while I attempt to baaaaw. ..Okay, not working. Used to minor derails. Sometimes things take slight detours. For the love of Yevon stop trying to backseat mod, it's getting annoying. Four posts about Summoner? OHNOES. Compared to a long thing about monk now? OHNOES AGAIN. Reality: The RDM, SMN, and MNK tangent are still related to the topic at hand in some way. And since when does anything on FFXIO ever stay un-derailed?

Didn't I debunk this once already on this very same thread? There were lots of non-crab camps in regular use - VoS, Kuftal depths, moongate to name only a few.

Most NINs and PLD would refuse to do Rocs in VoS without it being an Arrowburn. NO ONE ever wanted to do Kuftal Wyverns, Tigers or Cockatrice because of status spam. Ro'Maeve people seldom went to unless there was no other choice, same as the bowels of Kuftal.

Crabs were favored targets *in the 50s* primarily because of overhunting. Overhunting a crab leads to a slow frustrating fight that isn't really worth it in exp/hr terms. Overhunting a scorpion will probably kill someone, maybe the whole party. There's something about the way player and mob abilities grow with level that made the 50s particularly vulnerable to this, so unless you were lucky enough to have a static with the brains to go to KRT instead, crabs were just plain safer to fight with players of unknown skill.

God the words you like to make up.

It wasn't "overhunting." Crabs attacked slowly and were less accurate and less powerful than most mobs 50+, that is why they were favored - they didn't beat the shit out of a tank.


Fighting *appropriate* level scorpions with a *competent party* is better exp than fighting crabs of any level, but if you don't trust your tank or you're in a camp that's too high level for you, dangerous mobs are dangerous.

No one fought scorpions, even with a competent PT.

If by mages you include bard, yeah (cor not existing back then). Fighting crabs without a blm is just dumb. But it wasn't the tanks (IMX) who were afraid of mobs with attack - it was the DDs (including blms) that couldn't control their hate and could get one-shotted by anything more dangerous than Big Scissors. That, and people who obsessed about downtime without realizing that long fights are just as destructive to your overall exp/hr.

If I suggested a NIN fight a Roc in a non-arrowburn back then, they would shit a brick over it. Same with a PLD. RDMs would shit a brick if they were asked to main heal anything that contantly needed nuking or was damage resitant. There was a reason for that.

I'd much rather compete for 2 party slots (not counting the blm slot, even though blm is also a DD) than compete for 0 party slots (that's how many slots there are for dedicated tanks in a modern party, or for nukers). And I'm surprised you'd mention thief given how much *more* screwed they are today. They're a gimpy vanilla DD instead of the masters of SC closing and hate control they were designed to be.

Yet more of them get to 75 today than they ever did when they were these proclaimed masters of hate control. Gee, can't imagine why. Coudln't be there was more room for DDs in PTs these days.

There was a tremendous glut of players who just wanted to hit things and wouldn't play any other sort of job no matter what was actually needed. Some of them have left, some of them have branched out and some are still around meleeburning colibri every night, but the population pressure of too many DD players was created by the players, not by SE. Traditional parties had some room for any type of job. If there had been a huge glut of people who wanted to play healers do you think SE should have created healburn parties? Demographics are no excuse for screwing up balance (let alone making party coordination and teamwork unnecessary or actually counterproductive - the SC/MB dynamic actually distinguished FFXI from other MMOs where people just stood around and whaled on the same mob until it died and that was considered teamwork. Now FFXI *is* one of those games.)

You really think SE intended ToA to be melee paradice? I seriously doubt it. It was more like they made some mistakes in mob placement and realized it was too far gone to go back and change it without doing damage to the faith of players.

Nonetheless, my point remains - players will always find a mob to exploit. I have no love for how exclusive PT setups were in RoZ/CoP. You can't force someone to like a job that doesn't fit thier personality. Most people want to take part in melee in some fashion and SE has even gone so far to make jobs such as COR and DNC supportive and melee-capable. They've made mage jobs like BLU and SCH more active and interesting in thier casting roles. If SE is trying to get players to branch out, in this regard, they're succeeding.

Personally, I think the problem lies within the RoZ/ToA team, which aren't the same people behind FFXI/CoP/WotG team. RoZ/ToA overshoots on everything. RoZ mobs and camps have mobs too accurate, evasive and damaging. ToA mobs are the direct opposite. Can't really say many of the FFXI/CoP/WotG overkill in this way. Even with its few "burn" camps, the mobs aren't dramatically difficult wimpy ones.

Anyway, I think its rather unfair to make an MMORPG so rigid that your job cannot possibly get to 75. Did you happen to get your DRG to 75 pre-ToA? I highly doubt it. I got DRG to 60 pre-ToA and getting invites was like waiting for scraps from the table, if you didn't get a PT early in US primetime, you didn't get one and if you built one, people would vacate the moment they saw something better.

PLDs like to bemoan their plight in this era, but they still get to 75 somehow, its just 72+ they seem to really slow down. I've played BST from early CoP to present - we've gotten updates, but has the invite situation improved at all?

Nope.

Not often invited to PTs.
Not invited to merits.
People don't respect my solo camps.
And I'm not welcome at any endgame events.

Does PLD have any of those problems? I still love BST still level it and shrug off these issues, but I'm not going to sit here and pretend the aren't problems. They totally are.

I'm not trying to trivialize PLD's situation, just putting it in perspective for you. PLDs don't have it as bad as they make it out to be.

Shit, just look at any pet job - they're practically shunned at endgame now. I even know of LSes that don't want people bringing SMN to events, for christ's sake. And it doesn't seem to change no matter how much SE buffs the pet jobs. They need to find whatever is making people shun these jobs and nip it in the bud.

None of any of this has much to do with /NIN anymore, but eh, topics like this tend to end up like that.

ok I am going to be very short here lol I am in a good mood so I am not going to yell xD.

1) People think /NIN is like the only good subjob anymore.
2) I only said I hated FFXI because I was so mad.
3) One of the main reason's a lot of shit in this "game" is pissing me off is because everyone wants everyone to do what is outside of the there job description. Seriously RDM and SMN (sometimes) can do more then just heal. RDM has a lot of spells that are over used in this game, and has a lot more to offer, and yet are even waisted. I don't really even see the point of having RDM in this game anymore. just give WHM <Refresh> etc..and you have the perfect healer.

4) ok I am going to bitch a little bit now, some of you said this really isn't a "game" its like life you have to deal and use whatever the party wants at that time. First of all, I am not going to sacrifise my fun just to make other people happy. I know this is not a normal game wear you can make the NPCs do whatever you want. But seriously there has to be some comprimise you cant just demand someone to do something and espect them to do it. If you do you are just dumb. I am not going to sit here and be like...HEAL....HEAL...HEAL just because they want a damn healer, find a fricken WHM. If not just wait!

5) Ok this is funny though, I went RDM/BLM in Qufim Island yesterday, the dude wanted me to be /WHM I didn't have /WHM leveled at all really. I said I would just use +MND items so I did. Anyway, when I got to the camp they had a WHM, she had all +MND items like me, and they were even better then mine. The funny part is, even though I was /BLM and had less MND then her, I healed more MP with Cure II then her Cure III did. Just thought that I should share that with you.

Quote of the day: "MMOs are like a job, the party is your boss, they tell you what to do and don't stop bitching at you and make you want to quit."

I am not going to sacrifise my fun just to make other people happy.

And I'm not going to sacrifice my fun just for yours either. My fun is to have people do what needs to be done in a party so that we can get max efficiency. If your fun gets in the way of that then /kick. The perfect way to not be in this type of situation is to not accept parties where you have to main heal. If you complain about backup healinig in a party as a rdm, then you just need to quit leveling any job with cure.

...you cant just demand someone to do something and espect them to do it. If you do you are