All i see is /Nin...

[Ervesa]

Okay, i've been in two parties so far that didnt like my choice in sub and im a 34Dnc/Drg atempting to get a couple more pices of hast gear. and i've had two parties completely complain about me having /Drg. now i wasnt kicked from eather party because i beleave i was doing my job better than they must have expected and the ldr liked me. but it still confuses me why people still think that /Nin is "The bomb" as one person said in defence (Note, DW was there only comeback to my string of reasons to /Drg). I am truly confused on this issue and was wondering what you people think. Because i refuse to /Ninja for any job i do and it hasnt effected my performance in parties.

My Server is Seraph just incase that effects it.

[Ellipses]

Because i refuse to /Ninja for any job i do and it hasnt effected my performance in parties.
I'm not saying /NIN is better than /DRG at that level, or that there's room for complaint about your choice there, but this isn't a very good argument. If you refuse to try it, you don't really know what it would or wouldn't do to your overall usefulness in any given party. Much like a WAR who flatly refuses to use a greataxe (or dual axes, etc.) never sees its advantages.

But the reasons for people using /NIN are the same as they are with every other melee job that uses it: Dual Wield, Utsusemi, lack of earth-shattering advantages to other subs, and habit. The first two can be pretty good reasons (depending on weapon/food/gear choice, and how often you get hate and how problematic it is when you do), the third can go either way, the fourth isn't so great.

[Zempten]

At that lvl your barely have any haste gear, the only thing that comes to mind is 5% from the earring that's activated by your /DRG. You probably won't see another piece till 50s (swift/speed/velocity belt) and then at 70s (dusk).

/DRG only gives you DD and Healer potential
/NIN gives you DD, Healer, and semi-tank potential at that lvl

I went /NIN for DNC so filling up the rest of the PT slots were easiar. Also using as least MP/TP for curing was the hugest factor in me going /NIN. Plus I could use the extra accuracy bonus on a dagger for sub so I could continue safetly eatting meat for DDing. Most importantly though . . .it was so I didn't die from Curing Waltz spam when I needed it and everyone else in the PT decided to so conviently(sp?) forget they have provoke.

[Icemage]

I'm rather perplexed about why people sub NIN on Dancer at all. It's not like Dancer damage output is so huge that Dual Wield will tangibly improve the party's damage potential, and you don't get any extra TP out of the bargain either.

In that sense, /DRG is a better bet. Personally, I think /SAM is an even better bet than /DRG once you get access to Meditate/Third Eye.


Icemage

[Kailea]

I would agree.... but if I sub anything other then NIN I get nothing as far as invites -.- and I like subing NIN when I solo.... so I am stuck with it for now

now where /NIN shines, some what anyway is when you hit 70-73 and go Dagger/Sword with Behemoth Knife +1/Joyeuse and equip a Suppanomimi and even maybe a Fortitude Torque

this will give you Dualweild II and a 12 point boost in sword

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

I'm rather perplexed about why people sub NIN on Dancer at all. It's not like Dancer damage output is so huge that Dual Wield will tangibly improve the party's damage potential, and you don't get any extra TP out of the bargain either.

In that sense, /DRG is a better bet. Personally, I think /SAM is an even better bet than /DRG once you get access to Meditate/Third Eye.


Icemage

People sub /NIN because people are overcuring pansies who eventually get hit or wannabe tanks, that's really all there is to it. You'd have to use a Rajas Ring just to get back the TP you initially lose from DWs. Even when I'm soloing, I hardly find myself recasting shadows because not getting hit and topping off my HP is rather counter-productive to using Drain Samba.

I've not been terribly impressed with the DNCs that go /DRG, really. Yeah, I know its subbing for the latent of Wyvern Earring at 30+, but DNC gets so many Haste options already. Jump for TP isn't really that great, particularly when /SAM could probably given you that same TP return in few swings.

But until you hit 60, there's really nothing better to sub before /SAM than /NIN or /DRG, I suppose. I've gone /NIN to this point pretty much because low level PT dynamic are shot or I'm just soloing and not partying to start with. 60+ I'm going /SAM and never looking back, but would consider /WAR at times as well.

[Silent Howler]

Dual Wield and Utsusemi were my two reasons for going /NIN. I started with Mercenary Knives so the added +2 accuracy was helpful. And I guess you could say I'm less afraid to cure when I have Utsusemi. Usually with White Mage I hesitate to use Curaga, but with Dancer I am entirely willing to use Divine Waltz. Often times it is very cost efficient but it does draw hate. /DRG doesn't offer any protection against that, except at level 70 with High Jump to shed enmity.

[IfritnoItazura]

You'd have to use a Rajas Ring just to get back the TP you initially lose from DWs.

Um, no.

We had a recent discussion on DW for BLU/NIN; Dual Wield doesn't reduce TP gain, as a general rule.

So, the statement "Dual Wield gives no better TP gain" is technically false. How about "Dual Wield's improvement to TP gain is negligible"? Is that better?
That should be it. It's slightly better, but in no way worse.

Obviously that doesn't apply to multi-hit weapons, but that's not a factor at OP's level.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Um, no.

We had a recent discussion on DW for BLU/NIN; Dual Wield doesn't reduce TP gain, as a general rule.

Then explain this:


Single Weilding with no Rajas nets me 10% TP for two attacks.
Dual Weilding with no Rajas nets me 9% when using identical daggers when both swings hit.
Dual Weilding with Rajas and the same two daggers gives me 10% TP.

So either you're wrong or you're telling me I'm imagining the effect of Store TP +5 putting me at 10% on two hits of DW and only imagining I was getting 9% before while DWing.

I'm going with "you're wrong."

Also, you're basing your discussion on BLU/NIN. Totally different job with totally different weapons. The TP returned on DW two scmitars might very well be negligible difference. That job isn't going to notice the decimals on the way to 100%, DNC is going to be counting them because its TP is put toward a much more altruistic purpose.

[IfritnoItazura]

Name the weapons, then, so we can do the math.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Name the weapons, then, so we can do the math.

When I put on Raja's DWing as /NIN, I instantly matched what i was getting single-wield from two swings without Rajas, is that so hard to understand? You think I'm just making up the difference between the first 29 levels and the last 14?

Windurtian Knives, as if it matters.

The Store TP +5 alone put me back at or near what I had lost from DWing on /NIN.

[little ninja]

I'm sick of seeing all these posts talking about /nin. Its the times now, so get used to it.

[Silent Howler]

Riiight like Dancers have been around for very long, and already they are getting thrown into the /NIN norm. Not like people gave it a chance to try anything else.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Well its the same as any of the newer jobs really, I mean how many BLUs and CORs do you not see subbing /NIN. /NIN isn't that great for PTs for either of those jobs, people sub /NIN (or in COR's case, also /WHM) because they're too goddamn lazy to level the other, more proper subjobs for PTs (like COR/RNG or BLU/THF)

Since /NIN is passable for those jobs, they go with what they have, which is always a poor approach to levelling any job.

When the stats hit the paper for DNC, most intelligent people saw that /SAM would be the best all-around subjob and that WAR, DRG and /NIN would also have a place with it. There were a lot of kooks running around Alla babbling that "DNC will be like BRD, DNC will sub /WHM."

Never happened, largely because they were looking at other RPG's perspective on DNC and not FF's.

DNC has always been the direct opposite of a BRD, DNC in FFXI is not only the opposite of a BRD, but now a healer to boot. DNC thrives on TP so what better subjob that the king of TP gain?

[BurningPanther]

I'm sick of seeing all these posts talking about /nin. Its the times now, so get used to it. That's a horrible attitude to have.

Did it ever occur to you that the overuse of said sub might indicate an imbalance? Just maybe?

You're essentially asking people to shut their mouths about a flaw, just on the argument that "it's the way things are now."

[little ninja]

Riiight like Dancers have been around for very long, and already they are getting thrown into the /NIN norm. Not like people gave it a chance to try anything else.

Cors were subbing /nin when they hit Quifim. blues were doing it as well. People are attracted to the D.W look. Parties are attracted to it for the shadows. Shadows = less damage taken = less cures wasted = more cures for tank = more exp overall.

[Silent Howler]

Cors were subbing /nin when they hit Quifim. blues were doing it as well. People are attracted to the D.W look. Parties are attracted to it for the shadows. Shadows = less damage taken = less cures wasted = more cures for tank = more exp overall.
There is also this thing called "tanking."

[IfritnoItazura]

Then explain this:

* Single Weilding with no Rajas nets me 10% TP for two attacks.
* Dual Weilding with no Rajas nets me 9% when using identical daggers when both swings hit.
* Dual Weilding with Rajas and the same two daggers gives me 10% TP.


So either you're wrong or you're telling me I'm imagining the effect of Store TP +5 putting me at 10% on two hits of DW and only imagining I was getting 9% before while DWing.

I'm going with "you're wrong."
When I put on Raja's DWing as /NIN, I instantly matched what i was getting single-wield from two swings without Rajas, is that so hard to understand? You think I'm just making up the difference between the first 29 levels and the last 14?

Windurtian Knives, as if it matters.

The Store TP +5 alone put me back at or near what I had lost from DWing on /NIN.

Now that you've named the weapons, I'll explain: you were looking at the wrong numbers. To be more specific, you overlooked some other numbers.

The idea of "faster" and "slower" TP'ing isn't about TP per hit or TP per round; it's TP per unit time. ("Speed", is always about "time".)


Windurstian KnifeDly: 185
1 sec = 60 delay
Windurstian Knife x1Dly = 185
TP/round = 5.0 + ((185-180) * 6.5)) / 270
= 5.0 + (5 * 6.5) / 270
= 5.0 + 32.5/270
= 5.0 + 0.1
= 5.1

TP/sec = (TP/round) / (delay/round) * (delay/sec)
= 5.1 / 185 * 60
~= 1.654 TP/sec
Windurstian Knife x2, Dual Wield Lv.IDly = (185 + 185) * (100% - 10%)
= 370 * 90%
= 333
Dly/hand = 333/2
= 166

TP/hand = 5.0 + ((166-180) * 1.5) / 180
= 5.0 + (-14 * 1.5) / 180
= 5.0 + -21/180
= 5.0 + -0.1
= 4.9


TP/round = (TP/hand) * 2
= 9.8

TP/sec = (TP/round) / (delay/round) * (delay/sec)
= 9.8 / 333 * 60
~= 1.766 TP/sec

DeltaTP/MIN = (1.766 TP/sec - 1.654 Tp/sec) * 60 sec/min
= 0.112 Tp/sec * 60 sec/min
= 6.72 TP/min

While the difference isn't great, Dual Wield I does have the edge for TP gain. If, as you say, every bit of TP counts for DNC, then DWI has a (small) advantage, at approximately 6.72 more TP per minute of battle. (Well, that's assuming 100% hit rate. Actual differences would be less, but still in favor of DWI.)

In other words,
You'd have to use a Rajas Ring just to get back the TP you initially lose from DWs. is a false statement, since you do not lose TP from DW--at least, not under the scenario you've provided.

Still think I'm wrong? Go poke VZX. :P

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

:rolleyes:

Really, I dont know what you're trying to argue about here, Itaz. Its almost like you're wanting to believe Rajas doesn't do anything. That would be like saying Tamas or Sattva Ring don't do anything, either.

Your math just said it. 9.8 TP per round from Dual Wielding two windurst knives, 5.1 TP from single wield.

Two swings single wield is what, kids? 10.2? Right. How much more is that than 9.8?

.4, right again!

Does Store TP +5 put us back over 10 TP on DW?

Yes, it does. So DWing with the Raja's puts us around where we were SWing and would lead to more TP gain over time.

[Saren]

:rolleyes:

Really, I dont know what you're trying to argue about here, Itaz. Its almost like you're wanting to believe Rajas doesn't do anything. That would be like saying Tamas or Sattva Ring don't do anything, either

Where does it say anything about a rajas ring not doing anything in Itazura's post? I don't see anything saying that a rajas doesn't improve your TP over time.

What he is saying is that yes you might get slightly less TP back in your two swings dual wielding than you do single wielding (both without a rajas but your two hits when dual wielding take slightly less time than two hits single wielding. This give DW a slightly better tp/time rate.

His point is that tp/time is different to tp/round.

[Jonastb]

All I can say about Dual Wield is my experience with 75 levels of BST. Whenever I subbed WHM, I would have about 105-110 TP by the end of the fight. Just enough to finish off the mob.

However, whenever I subbed NIN, which was most of the time, I always had a minimum of 150 TP by the end of the fight. So looking at that, you do gain more TP over time with Dual Wield.

And no, I don't have SS or parses because I play on a PS2.

I would also like to know what SAM actually brings to DNC besides Meditate. Because Meditate alone would not be all that usefull over time. And most of SAMs abilities require 2 handed weapons, which DNC doesn't use.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Where does it say anything about a rajas ring not doing anything in Itazura's post? I don't see anything saying that a rajas doesn't improve your TP over time.

Here:


In other words,

Originally Posted by Omgwtfbbqkitten http://www.ffxionline.com/forums/ffxio4/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.ffxionline.com/forums/dancer/71610-all-i-see-nin-post778708.html#post778708) You'd have to use a Rajas Ring just to get back the TP you initially lose from DWs.
is a false statement, since you do not lose TP from DW--at least, not under the scenario you've provided.

Still think I'm wrong? Go poke VZX.


There is nothing false about my statement.

You lose .2% TP from DW from SW, Rajas makes it back up and puts you at 10%

Its just another non-correction discussion coming from Itaz. He'll find something every week and try to correct something that isn't incorrect to start with. Last week, it was the "Clan Linkshell" topic, this week, its some negligable math.

[Ellipses]

I would also like to know what SAM actually brings to DNC besides Meditate. Because Meditate alone would not be all that usefull over time. And most of SAMs abilities require 2 handed weapons, which DNC doesn't use.
Store TP II, Zanshin, and Third Eye (not as good without Seigan, but it's still there).

[Saren]

There is nothing false about my statement.

You lose .2% TP from DW from SW, Rajas makes it back up and puts you at 10%

I think this is a slight misunderstanding.

Itazura's point is that dual wield gives you marginally more TP over time, thats right. You do not lose TP from dual wielding, you lose tp/hit but (in this case) gain tp/time.

Your point is that if you switch to dual wield and you aren't using a rajas you don't get 10 TP from your first two hits, thats also right because you do get 0.2% less TP per connected swing, you are just swinging slightly more often which, over time, more than makes up for the loss per swing.

It's just because of how the numbers fall out and because of how small a TP gain advantage dual wield gives you.

[Kailea]

why such a fuss anyway over something so small, you all said it yourself the difference is of a small amount, so why even argue?

[Lunaryn]

There is a slight point to be made that requiring three hits instead of two to reach the threshold for the lower sambas is going to slow down a DNC's first battle after zoning or changing weapons. Omg doesn't seem to be making that point, though, just trolling around it. From experience I can say he's too intelligent not to understand what's going on (Delay reduction effects always lower TP/hit, not TP gain rate) and is just looking for a fight.

This is getting so old... :(

[IfritnoItazura]

From experience I can say he's too intelligent not to understand what's going on (Haste effects always lower TP/hit, not TP gain rate) and is just looking for a fight.

Actually, Haste does not alter TP/hit, but strongly improves TP/unit time. Dual Wield alters TP/hit (reduces it), but improves DoT, adds an extra hit to WS, and in general increases TP gain rate (TP/unit time) slightly.

As for BBQ, he got in his head I'm mistaken, and won't admit he's wrong because he thought he wrote down "facts". Doesn't really alter what's true or not; he implied DWI reduces TP gain rate, which just isn't true for the weapon he named, unless I did my math wrong.

Rajas Ring doesn't "make up" DWI's slower TP gain, because in general DWI does not have slower TP gain to begin with. :biggrin: (Nothing wrong with the statement that Rajas Ring improves TP gain for DWI, though--just like it improves TP gain for single wield.)

[Yellow Mage]

Game Point: Itaz.

I mean, seriously, he does have a point. Plus, I believe that 'kitten once chastised the community for once looking at exp/kill as opposed to exp/hour at one point; this is essentially the same thing.

[Armando]

Itaz is correct. The entire line of thought of "1 swing for 5.1 TP is better than two swings for 9.8 TP because 5.1x2=10.2, (please overlook the fact that it takes longer to hit twice while single wielding than while dual wielding)" was lame.

Dual Wield gets to swing twice at the beginning of every fight anyways. If we're only analyzing DW vs single wield, Dual Wield won before the discussion began.

[fencingkitty]

>.> TP math aside, it's really about what your party as a whole needs.

I'm part of a static on my 56 DNC thats DNC, PLD, COR, RDM, SAM and we pick up a random 6th whenever. Seeing as the War Hoop costs me nothing to throw v. my COR's bullets (interrupting his roll cycle aside) I wind up debuffing, main healing, and pulling. I could care less that I'm swinging two daggers and more that yes...I do have shadows to save me and my TP as I pull back to camp, or w/e I pull hate Waltzing the PLD (or the SAM /sigh...they have hate wars).

As a DRG main yeah I have it leveled, but for the amount of haste the /DRG gear gives, unless you have all of it and a raparee+swift I'd say wait till ~70's if you wanna sink for dusk pieces, IF your acc still is sufficient. Yeah, you get TP from Jumps and an attack bonus, but really...figure your roll? Are you there for DD? Are you there for main heal? Are you there for sub-tank? Are you there for pulling? Are you there for all of the above? ( ; ; that'd be a yes)

Then the sub is situational, like everything else in this game. ^^

Just my opinion, YMMV

((omg I haven't posted in forever...I need to change my avatar ; ; ))