Everyone please plop on your Hypothesizing Hats please.

Everyone wearing theirs?

Ok.


Earlier tonight I was fannying about on another forum and reading a topic about what kind of RDM alterations players would like to see from SE should they ever actually act on their stated concern regarding RDM's overall resignation to backline-only status. (I tried to include a comma somewhere in this opening sentence, I swear...)

Lots of suggestions were being thrown about. Job abilities that would trade off magic capability in favour of melee, new spells, new +acc traits, melee swings going uninterrupted by casting, etc, even native Double/Triple Attack..

Thing is, basically, the way I see it, ultimately, at the end of the day and when all's said and done (okay, I'll stop), the problem with ALL of these suggestions is that whilst yes, I can see how they would improve a RDM's capabilities up-front, all of these suggested RDM updates are also going to improve a RDM's capabilities when soloing..

And... even though I'm a career RDM (granted, a lowly one at a mere RDM70, but it's my main all the same), I still say this:

I don't think that's A Good Thing.


Really, RDM is a pretty balanced job it would appear. Whilst it is obviously capable of soloing some downright silly stuff, it does so in a way that is at least fair, with a trade-off (namely the duration of time it takes to whittle the bastard down.)

Any direct update which increases a RDM's meleeing proficiency will be stepping dangerously deep into the murky depths of BROKEN.


RDM simply don't need their soloing skills improving. They're pretty perfect as it currently is.

The specific issue that SE have stated concern over is quite simply:

That RDMs are nearly always on the backlines.

(Yes there are exceptions, both game-circumstantial and player-individual, but backline-only is inarguably the Common Trend.)


So anyway, I'm reading this thread like I mentioned and, whilst pondering idly over solutions of my own, I came up with something. Just a little something, but at first glance it made sense. I fiddled with it a bit in my mind and added and tweaked a few things (and noticed that it wasn't showing any signs of suddenly turning into a distinctly shitty something like my ideas usually do) and so I typed it out as a suggestion, previewed it, reread it and it still sort of.. you know.. seemed to work. :huh:

In my head at least. >.>;


Bearing in mind the issue at hand, ie. the backline RDM thing, (and even if you yourself don't see it as an issue, at least treat it as an issue that SE is hovering over), as well as bearing in mind the overpowerediness that a straight-up melee boost would do to RDM-solo, what would your thoughts be on this..


Don't add any new Job Abilities. Don't add any new Traits. Don't add any new spells to our already overflowing list.

Just change how our current beloved Enspells work.

Here's how:

Consider first of all DNC's new 'daze' type of effect that it inflicts on a mob. The DNC strikes the enemy, that enemy recieves the 'daze' effect, then any other character striking the enemy gets a buff of some description. The 'daze' effect has an extremely short duration, meaning the DNC has to be continually meleeing and has to melee accurately.

Now (and you're still wearing your Hypothesizing Hats I hope), let's brutally rip this idea of the 'daze' effect from DNC and slap it straight on to RDM's Enspells. Exact same idea. RDM melees with an Enspell active, mob is inflicted with this 5 second 'daze' effect every time the Enspell procs, characters who strike the mob receive a short-duration buff.

BUT! There's a catch. The RDM has the Enspell active on their own weapon, which nullifies the buff proccing on themselves. (Get it?! No solo buffing!) Only other party members who are striking the mob will receive the benefit of the 'daze'. That right there would be the RDM-solo balance issue resolved. A RDM can't benefit from an Enspell's 'daze' if he has Enspell active himself. (Note, I'll continue referring to a player as male, simply because I can't be arsed to keep on using 'him/herself'. Nothing personal ladies, I'm just a lazy bastard^^)

Now, here's the cool/questionable/retarded bit... What kind of buffs would the Enspells 'daze' effect actually give to the party members that are swinging away at the mob? Before I go any further, think to yourself.. as a Party Leader building a group and inviting a RDM, what kind of buffs would actually make you even consider letting that guy pull his blade out full-time within your party? The RDM will have to manage their MP that much more, they'll have major TP issues if they're using staves, they may have mACC issues if they're using weaponskills, they'll be within AOE, they'll add a drip-drip to the mob's TP gain.. All arguably valid reasons to favour that RDM parking his arse on the back-lines where he's always been. So again, as a party leader building a group, what kind of buffs would make you consider him being frontline? o.o;

Two words: Elemental Staves.. :evil:


Enfire: +STR, +ATT (Drool!)
Enstone: +VIT, -dmg taken% (Nice!)
Enwater: +MND, +Divine Magic (Erm...)
Enthunder: +DEX, +Crit (Drool! again)
Enaero: +AGI, +Eva (Meh?)
Enblizzard: +INT, +Elemental Magic (Erm... again)

The potency of these buffs would be calculated, not surprisingly, based on the RDM's Enhancing Skill. This would allow for natural scaling of effectiveness right from when the Enspells are first learnt up to endgame and would offer another goddamn reason for RDMs to take their thumbs out've their asses and get capping their Enhance (not that they should need anymore, but there you go). And we'll go under the assumption that these potencies would be playtested by SE to ensure they fall somewhere within non-gimpy and non-broken values. That is to say, don't worry: they're good-sized buffs, lame Enhancing Skill notwithstanding.

Now come on, as a party leader that looks tempting right? Right? Two of those Enspells are awesome. Enfire and Enthunder.. Would buffs like that make you consider inviting a frontline RDM? If the answer is yes, then surely that's this whole backline-only issue resolved to an extent, isn't it?


This is obviously just a fool-around idea, hence those hats you're all wearing, but I felt it was wacky enough to merit mentioning simply as a possible solution. Especially as I want to know what I'm missing.

I'll be honest, as of right now, I like the concept. It seems to be an idea that could be balanced simply enough through playtesting to achieve sensible effectiveness; it adds enough draw to the idea of a frontline RDM to get people taking it seriously; it raises its own natural challenges to the RDM himself (regarding what gear to focus on, what spells to focus, finding a casting balance that doesn't let the 'daze' drop too much, etc.); aaaand it doesn't affect the soloing RDM in any way. Woot!

I'd see possible conflictions with other DNCs in the party assmuming that the two 'dazes' don't stack, but why shouldn't they stack? The 'endaze' and 'daze' don't need to be mutually exclusive (I've used the 'daze' term simply to convey the type of effect). Would this piss off CORs and BRDs were something like this added?

So yeah.. a let's-pretend thread, with a dufus solution to a possibly-not-even-ever-gonna-be-addressed issue. But still, what am I missing? :wtf:

Well it's an interesting idea to be sure, and I've heard a lot of ideas in favor of RDM frontline. I'll be honest, I don't play RDM as much as I used to anymore because I've found WHM to be my true calling.

That being said, I'm not sure how well it would be received for RDMs to "step on DNC's toes." We already have so much as it is, and you know how many people bitch and moan if RDM gets anything. Or just the thought of RDM getting something.

I do like the idea, that the enspells would add a stat boost to the entire group of people meleeing in range. It does allow RDM to be useful in another capacity, the question is, who's going to stand back and main heal in a merit party then? Would RDM DD be decent enough to bring in a WHM to main heal so the RDM can melee? I can't see RDM melee being good enough that RDM could replace a WAR or SAM in meripo failing other DD seeking. Even well geared, a RDM will not outparse most DD jobs.

RDM x 5 + BRD TP-burn party ^^? *joke*

Just a reminder: If those pretended changes for En-spell is true for player RDM, it should also applies to mob/beast-men RDM as well. This can be a major impact for Campaign Battles.

Aye, I know of the thread you speak. And since it was some of my suggestions that were mentioned, I feel the need to defend my position:
No new spells.

None. At all.


If I were to craft a meleé update for RDM, I'd make many little, indirect additions to the jobs as opposed to direct damage boosts or spell additions.

1. I'd re-scale the native MAcc and damage caps for En-spells. Currently, the breakpoints are achieve every 20 levels of Enhancing skill(thanks to Taskmage for the info); I'd shorten it to every 15 or 10 levels.

What this means: Allows for quicker achievement of damage potential, as well as a higher damage potential at 75. I've revised my original suggestion to not indirectly boost MAcc again, but rather, lean En-spells' MAcc reliance a little more heavily on Enhancing skill at the time of casting.


2. A bevy of new traits, tailoring indirectly toward combat.
a. Counter trait, with the special property of processing on Parries. This allows for indirect damage contribution, while not completely mimicking MNK.
b. Acc Bonus trait. Currently, RDM's B rating in Dagger and Sword, while respectable, simply doesn't compensate against exp-caliber mobs. Instead of creating imbalance with by simply raising the skill of each weapon, introducing an Acc Bonus improves hit rate without directly boosting damage.
c. Subtle Blow. I know you're all thinking "WTF?" But I was considering that jobs dealing in light, quick damage(a core principle in fencing), Subtle Blow traits would do well toward contributing damage(both magical and physical), without fueling that "TP spam" myth.
d. Double/Triple Attack. This one might be a touch extreme, mostly as an answer to the casting/swinging ratio. This might allow for more swings in between casts.
e. Conserve MP. Intended for pretty much for any hybrid job, the concept behind Conserve MP would be to save MP as opposed to stopping to rest. Also, changes to the trait would allow for MP conservation on more than just large-scale spells(like BLM nukes).
f. Fast Cast. While for the longest time, Fast Cast was the final word in cast time reduction, the introduction of BLU and near-instant-cast physical spells has shown us the potential of combat casting(especially a BLU paired with the Fast Cast of /RDM). In lieu of across-the-board timer reductions, there would need to be a more pronounced increase in the potency of current Fast Cast and it's tiers, allowing for less time spent casting and more spent swinging.

3. Skill Boosts
a. D Archery -> C Marksmanship. I mostly chose this because we'd look so much more awesome with rifles. Razz
b. D Evasion -> F Evasion. Lower evasion simply means easier development of other skills. It was always my personal opinion that any job even rumoured to be frontline should have low Evasion skill.
c. F Shield -> D Shield. Just a boost to the relevance of Shields and their skill for the job.
d. E Parrying -> B Parrying. Just like everything else in this post, it's my personal opinion that a job based off fencing precepts shouldn't have anything less than awesome Parrying skill. Just another indirect boost to combat capability.

4. Armor, Weapons, etc.
a. Introduction of inherent MAcc into RDM utilized swords, à la the hidden bonus in elemental staves. The MAcc bonus would be introduced into shortswords(rapier, epeé, fleuret), to include select scimitars, longswords, broadswords and scythes, as well as daggers(this extends the bonus to other hybrid jobs, namely PLD, DRK, and BLU).
The key would be that the inherent bonus for swords at the level 50 range would be equal or greater to the inherent MAcc in elemental staves, obviously to exceed it in swords at higher levels(this was an idea swiped from some fella on Alla, when I retrieve his name, I'll take the time to give him proper credit. I just thought this one was too good to limit to one forum).
b. Hybrid Gear. Introduction of more gear containing Acc, MAcc, Atk, INT, MND, MP.

Basically, lower-scale versions of Homam, Goliard and Morrigan's(Wise too, I guess), available as early as level 20.

d. Alternate-slot items. A hotly-debated idea on the forums of their origination, the concept was to introduce an item that possessed the hidden MAcc of the elemental staves, but in a slot other than main-hand. The concept was perhaps ammo-slot. Keep in mind, only the MAcc would be offered, no other staff bonuses. It was tossed around that there could be multiple items according to element, or one single tiem offering a flat MAcc % bonus(props to Ophenix on FFXIclopedia for the suggestion).
e.Magical foods(seriously this time). The introduction of foods that offer MAcc, MAtk, MDef, cast time reduction. That sort of thing.

5. Gameplay.
Currently, one of the single biggest roadblocks to RDM's frontlining is healing capability. Healing skill's irrelevance allows for easy soft-cap achievement, with only MND to fall back on. Easy cap achievement, combined with fast casting and RDM's famed mana recovery(and spells provided by /WHM), results in RDM replacing WHM far too easily.
My biggest change would be a drastic change to Healing skill, adjusting Cures to rely more on Healing skill level than MND. Cursna accuracy would also more heavily reflect upon Healing skill(it's currently random, so far as I know).

The physical enhancements I suggested were mostly indirect buffs to RDM's meleé capability.
The reason I don't agree that it's unbalancing is that the sort of solo capability people envy so much doesn't rely on meleé capability.

--No on sits there and hacks away at Genbu or Seiryu.

--They don't draw Joyeuse to solo Operation: Desert Swarm.

--Improved physical attack is not an advantage versus Bune.

The sort of solos everyone is afraid of making easier, don't use meleé capability. In fact, meleé would be a liability. It's spells that work the magic(no pun intended), in these scenarios, which is a big reason I'm against new spell additions in any form.


The sort of NMs improved meleé would make easier are of little consequence; we were already meleéing those mobs, combat boosts would just wrap up the task a touch quicker. The indirect boosts I suggested would ensure we don't make those fights too quick, however.
__________________________________________________ ______________________

I applaud the idea of adding enhancements to En-spells, and also applaud the restriction on self-enhancement with the proposed changes. I think it's obvious that the enhancements provided would have to be significant boosts; no one would consider it worthwhile for the RDM to pop Enfire if all it gave was a point extra STR or Attack(if the enhancement weren't significant, it wouldn't matter whether or not the RDM got access to it when solo).

Also, there would have to be some provision actually allowing us to use swords and daggers. A party leader(and the community in general), could just as easily say "You don't need to wear a sword to cast En-spells, you can do it just fine while keeping your staff on." Basically, this proposal would have to come in tandem with some change that frees us from staves.

Edit:
Read your ideas. Here's what I have to say on the matter.

YES.

the question is, who's going to stand back and main heal in a merit party then? Would RDM DD be decent enough to bring in a WHM to main heal so the RDM can melee? I can't see RDM melee being good enough that RDM could replace a WAR or SAM in meripo failing other DD seeking. Even well geared, a RDM will not outparse most DD jobs. This is something I constantly think about, and something that constantly gets my goat.

When suggestions are offered to move RDM to frontline prominence, most people seem adamant that there is "One Big Update to Rule Them All," that will suddenly make us more desired on the frontline and free us from the backline. Without asking for a direct damage boost(on par with WAR, minimum), this one-suggestion-cure-all is simply not gonna work, and leave us chasing our tails.

However, we certainly don't need to do meleé damage on the exact same numbers as the more dedicated DDs; BLU has shown us that.

Anything offered will have to be two-fold: incentive to meleé, and incentive not to sit on the backlines and cast.

As I mentioned in my previous post, one solution will have to free us from staff dependency, while another would make it... unpalatable, to consider inviting RDM to main heal.

BP: Firstly, send me your Icon, full size please, via a link in PMs. I want that to be my background of the week.

Second, I've only done ODS via the Melee approach, and I'm perfectly able to hold my Scorp down to 50%, and then the rest of the party finally chimes in (I'm usually the one holding the Scorpion the longest).

Moving on to the OP: I like the ideas. I can honestly say that I've never seen that before.

My intention for EnSpells YEARS ago was to make them act as a sort of "Antenna," for RDM, meaning we can cast Enspells and still have greater potency on corresponding spells (IE, casting Blizzard III while Enblizzard is active AND having your weapon drawn will have a similar effect to using an Ice Staff. It won't be as potent, as to not make Elemental Staffs null, but it will be better than nothing.)

Your update nullifies the solo-breaking aspects of my idea. I like it, I really do.

BP: Firstly, send me your Icon, full size please, via a link in PMs. I want that to be my background of the week.

Second, I've only done ODS via the Melee approach, and I'm perfectly able to hold my Scorp down to 50%, and then the rest of the party finally chimes in (I'm usually the one holding the Scorpion the longest). Yes, but you weren't soloing ODS with Joyeuse and offhand-of-choice.

That's my point. The solos where meleé is utilized will only be made slightly quicker and less hairy, but the popular solos--the ones that get us labeled "unbalanced"--THOSE don't rely on meleé(in said solos, meleé would be a liability), and thus would not be affected by it any boosts to it.

Idea: Steal from DNC.

Sorry, already heard it.

I still don't like it.

Why does everyone's "job ideas" basically boil down to stealing abilities from other jobs?

When SE gives a new spell or ability, even if it bears a similarity to something another job has, the mechanics behind the ability are vastly different. What makes Sambas different from Enspells or DRK's Blood Weapon is the very fact that it benefits other party members and that its technically not a party buff, but abuff just for the DNC or /DNC. If the DNC doesn't touch the mob often enough, the others in PT can't benefit.

Now, let's say they did do something similar to Samba's with enspells, such as Enblizzard procing a Paralyze effect with each melee hit. But isn't this what Ice Spikes is for? Mob hits you, you have a chance at paralyzing it. To increase that chance would already be broken.

DNC is actually supposed to not only be an enfeebler, but the direct opposite of a BRD. They don't give you Accuracy buffs, they give the mob evasion down. They don't give you attack buffs, but instead lower mob defense. This is why I chuckled when people speculated it would be "like a BRD" just as I did when they said it about COR. Neither really duplicate what a BRD does, they just have things that resemble what BRDs do, but function in a completely different way.

The OP's concept goes too far in that it steps on the toes of DNC, COR and BRD.

RDM is powerful enough as is on support, it doesn't need more PT buffs, especially considering that RDM can stack multiple buffs, meanwhile jobs that can AoE those buffs always have larger limits placed on them.

Idea: Steal from DNC.

Sorry, already heard it.

I still don't like it.

Why does everyone's "job ideas" basically boil down to stealing abilities from other jobs? Probably because there are so many specialized roles at this point, people are running out of ways to keep something unique. But then, what is Drain Samba but Blood Weapon with a much shorter recast?

You wanted to differentiate, it is still possible. Enblizzard that carries Paralyze properties is actually different from Ice Spikes. The former is proactive, the latter is reactive. See? differentiation made possible.
DNC uses their abilities to buff the party by enfeebling the mob, Deeke's proposal simply enfeebles the enemy by buffing the party. If anything, it mirrors BRD more than DNC.


The only reason I don't agree with the idea(and agree a little more with you), is because I'm very fond of keeping a job in character, and giving RDM party buffs(without the aid of a subjob), is just moving in the direction of BRD.
RDM is powerful enough as is on support, it doesn't need more buffs. Good ol' 'kitten. Good to see your disdain for RDM isn't marred at all by a generally good-natured brainstorming thread.

The point is to throw around ideas that in keeping with S-E's intentions of bringing RDM to the frontline. Hell, if we come up with something good, it might be just possible that it's brought up in the suggestion thread, and--dare I hope--actually included in a suggestion to the development team.

Deeke's idea was to simply use that popular support capability to our advantage--moving us to the front rather than keeping us in back. We know it has flaws, that's why we're wearing our thinking caps.

Instead of just griping about why you think it can't or shouldn't work, how about offering solutions you think will work?

I dont like the idea of taking DNC's limelight and giving it to RDM. The whole purpose of dancer is to assist the party through the use of TP and effects gained by hitting the mob.

RDM supports the party in many other forms, mainly spells, but in some instances via melee.

In regards to melee soloable mobs, I dont see it as putting rdm into a well of brokeness. I dont ever melee solo mobs, because it is not partical, and I dont see it being practical if we receive an A in sword and some phantom WS either, the TP moves the mobs use (many AoE) will be sufficient to end our solo endevours pretty quickly.

For example check out the link sevv posted in regards to a ninja soloing genbu, not once did he pull his weapons. The Idea behind RDM soloing and the reason /NIN is the norm is because RDM excells at longevity and survivability and have 6 shadows that absorb anything 100% of the time increases this much longer.

On to the topic at hand I would prefer some type of Scholarish ability like the dark arts/ light arts thing.

It would increase our Weapon Skills/STR/DEX/AGI etc while sacraficing our Magical skills while active. 10% looks like a fair number because it wont push us over the threshold of becoming a high damaging class.

if you look at it like this

250 (cap sword) is only a 25 point increase to 275
276 (cap enfeeb) is a 27 point decrease to 249

I think personaly it is a fair trade of as basically we are swaping our magical ability for a similar increase to melee ability.


Now for my honest opinion on the matter

Dont fix it if it aint broken.

RDM melee is nearly not as bad as people put it. A properly geared RDM can do a substantial amount of damage over time, while not comparable to a mnk/war/sam, I have seen parses posted over on alla of one parsing within 10% of those three and beating out ninjas and theives. In order to be a good melee you must posses the drive to obtain the equipment. Same as if you want to be good at anything else rdm has to offer. (Nuking, Enfeebling, Healing, Soloing) It will cost you alot of time and money but RDM is alot of work.

I dont feel that new players to RDM deserve to have a free ride in to the world of melee, with some type of buff to that part of the job. RDM is alot of work an is very limited in the time it gets to melee. The Job ramps up in duties from 32 on with Dispel/Refresh/Haste as well as becoming the solo healer from levels 65-75 (and meripo). New and Old RDM's alike first need to master what they already have on their plates, regardless of how many bones RDM gets thrown (if any at all) It will still be seen as a glorified endgame WHM, and a refresh whore, their is no 2 ways around that.

RDM melee is very viable as it stands right now, there are instances you can melee, but in run of the mill pick up groups etc you wont be having much of an opportunity. So much stands in the way of us being "allowed to melee"

1. We are invited to Refresh
2. We are invited to Haste
3. We are invited to Main Heal
4. We are invited to Dispel
5. We are invited to Enfeeble/Crowd Control
6. We are invited to Buff
7. We are invited to Nuke/MB
8. We are not invited
9. We are invited to melee

pretty much in that order.

Now in order to melee we need to have some of those things taken care of, pretty well 1-7.

While it is possible to melee and carry out a full refrsh haste cycle it is not pratical.

If you are planing on meleeing you will be subbing a melee job /NIN for dual weild, /DRK for atk boost and VB, WAR atk bst, DA, VB are the most common. /DNC offers ACC boost, /BLU offers more MP HP, VB and status boosts via spells. If you are meleeing /whm, /blm you need to get your head examined because you are useless. If you want to melee /WHM or /BLM go level solo because your hindering your party.

The thing people dont understand about RDM is it can't do everything effectivley all the time. It is very influenced by its subjob (much more than most jobs). The amount of roles RDM can preform is a ridiculous amount, and having a certain subjob leveled for each of them is pretty well a must. I get scoffed at because of my /BLM but out of all the endgame RDM's I group with, I am the only one who consistently lands enfeebles, and they are /WHM ("the norm"). We are also the most burdened by equipment. White Enfeeble gear, Black enfeeble gear, convert gear, cure gear, fast cast gear, haste gear, nuking gear (ACC), nuking gear (MAB), healing mp gear and that is just mage stuff. If you get into melee gear you need acc gear, attack gear, haste gear, weaponskill gear. Just off the top of my head if you included gear as a mage and a melee you have 13 sets of gear, while yes some is inter changable if you figure you have 5 swaps per set thats allready 65 peices of gear just for swaps not including the other 11 slots of stationary gear for a total of 76. Add in necassary items (echo drops, reraise scroll, warp scroll, sneak oil, invis powder and pesonal drop slots of 3-4 spaces) your running at about 90 items.

So that right there shows why a RDM can't do it all all the time. It is best suited comming and fullfilling a solitary role and supporting when it can. (ie. Main heal, "support" support [refresh haste etc], Support (enfeebling refresh/haste) support healing, and melee "Support" Support.


edit (added another number for our list of invites etc)

Good ol' 'kitten. Good to see your disdain for RDM isn't marred at all by a generally good-natured brainstorming thread.

Good ol' BP, always assuming what isn't true and wanting unbalanced things for his job.

I meant PT buffs - RDM doesn't need any more of them.

Do I need to say it more slowly for you to understand?

Good ol' BP, always assuming what isn't true and wanting unbalanced things for his job.

I meant PT buffs - RDM doesn't need any more of them.

Do I need to say it more slowly for you to understand? You might try reading again - I was agreeing with you, if only in part.

But you still haven't offered any alternatives in addition to tearing down an idea.

You might try reading again - I was agreeing with you, if only in part.

But you still haven't offered any alternatives in addition to tearing down an idea.

Did in the last thread of this kind.

Give a Berzerk-like boost to Enspells with some kind of penalty in exchange, perhaps such as losing 3 MP per swing while its active, which would oppose the benefit of Refresh. This way, a RDM can briefly move up to the frontline as needed, but not all the time. They would have to carefully consider how to use the ability and SE wouldn't break RDM by overbuffing them.

Ruic found out years ago that the damage from enspells don't add Enmity.

Rather, he hypothesized this. With the information we have, I'm going to have to see if Kaeko found out otherwise.

But with that in mind, I wouldn't mind if Enspells were (as stated before) scaled differently to raise in steps every 10, as opposed to 20 levels; and if their resist rate was nullified/weakened.

Theoretically, I wouldn't mind if the only addition to RDM was that our Enspells did 40-50 damage a swing with just capped skill at 75.

Of course, I like my antenna idea, but I'm willing to sacrifice that concept.

A quick thought that comes up in my mind.
I've levelled Red Mage to 75 solely to use for endgame and solo (NM) purposes.
I levelled it from level 9 to 75 within a very short period of time, basically just because I really hated playing Red Mage during exp party's, mainly because Red Mage is appointed as "Main Healer" a lot. I hate healing magic. During levelling, I haven't really missed meleeing. Even if Red Mage would make a good melee player, it's other duties are the main priority. Refresh, Haste, enfeebling etc.
I switch(ed) through so much equipment for different type of spells, I wouldn't even want to carry melee equipment as well.

The issue is: Can Red Mage play a melee role? Sure. Does a Red Mage have more important things to do other than melee? Yes.

Heh, I was expecting to open this thread up today and be greeted with a bevy of replies tearing the Endaze idea a new hole. Yay for that not being entirely the case! A few issues have been raised that I have opinions on, so I'll quickly run through them.


It does allow RDM to be useful in another capacity, the question is, who's going to stand back and main heal in a merit party then? Would RDM DD be decent enough to bring in a WHM to main heal so the RDM can melee?

Well, to the first line - if necessary, then RDM will stand back and main heal. As per usual. I don't perceive any update out-and-out taking RDM off the backline full-time. It seems more likely that RDM's current established roles will remain as they are now, but there will just be an extra option granted to them (of comparitive worth) which involves them pulling out their weapon. Another thing to consider is the proposed Enstone buff, which according to the original idea offers +VIT and damage down. That in itself is a form of healing.

The question of would a RDM's damage output be 'decent enough' would typically boil down to each individual RDM's melee build (which will obviously require sacrificing gears for other aspects of the RDM's job). The point to bear in mind though is that this Endaze suggestion isn't defined by the damage output, but rather by the buffs.


That being said, I'm not sure how well it would be received for RDMs to "step on DNC's toes." We already have so much as it is, and you know how many people bitch and moan if RDM gets anything. Or just the thought of RDM getting something.

Which is quite true. However this whole thread merely addresses something SE themselves are maybe looking at. So whether SE do eventually act on it or not, what other jobs subsequently think of an update if it does happen are all moot points within this discussion I guess. As we all know, a RDM-frontline update is on SE's radar. Community reaction and attitude towards that is another topic entirely. :P


The sort of solos everyone is afraid of making easier, don't use meleé capability. In fact, meleé would be a liability. It's spells that work the magic(no pun intended), in these scenarios, which is a big reason I'm against new spell additions in any form.

Sorry, I should clarify. The point I'm trying to make is that RDM-soloing capabilities are balanced overall. There are some things we can solo that are simply crazy, but on the other hand we don't tend to fare so well soloing T+ straight-up melee. We can solo somethings that, arguably, no single player should be able to. There are other things we can't solo. I didn't mean to suggest that RDM-solo might become broken from an update because it would allow us to do what we already do.. but even better. By broken, I meant more that it further increase our soloing options. We can take on enough things as it is - I just don't think RDMs need to be boosted in other areas of solo also. That seems too much.

(Also BP, I can't help but worry what kind of an impact your proposed changes to Fast Cast would do for Utsusemi usage. o.o; )


Also, there would have to be some provision actually allowing us to use swords and daggers. A party leader(and the community in general), could just as easily say "You don't need to wear a sword to cast En-spells, you can do it just fine while keeping your staff on." Basically, this proposal would have to come in tandem with some change that frees us from staves.

Not quite. A RDM would actually need to use sword or dagger - they aren't going to connect with a staff, simple as that. RDM accuracy is a big enough issue as it is without attempting to use a subjob level weapon. So the RDM is forced to make that mACC sacrifice if they want to get up front. It's not a nice sacrifice, but it's certainly conditional.


Why does everyone's "job ideas" basically boil down to stealing abilities from other jobs?

When SE gives a new spell or ability, even if it bears a similarity to something another job has, the mechanics behind the ability are vastly different. What makes Sambas different from Enspells or DRK's Blood Weapon is the very fact that it benefits other party members and that its technically not a party buff, but abuff just for the DNC or /DNC. If the DNC doesn't touch the mob often enough, the others in PT can't benefit.

With all due respect, I'm hesitant to reply to you Kitten. I'm not a regular poster on these boards, but I've lurked a fair bit and I notice that you have difficulty taking opinions which conflict with your own objectionally. That's not to say your opinions aren't valid, but as someone with a different opinion to yours I can't help but question why I should even bother raising it in comparison to your own. If that makes sense.

But what the hell.

I make no disguise of the fact that the Endaze's basic mechanic is lifted straight from DNC. But what exactly's new about that? The game is filled with similar mechanics that are just presented differently. Endaze wouldn't be the same as daze. Similar basic mechanic, sure, but that's where the similarity ends. Endaze uses a magic skill for calculating potency and it's non-receivable by the user. A frontline RDM won't play just like a DNC as there is no emphasis on TP. Not only that but whilst DNCs have near-instant abilities, a RDM using Endaze is going to have other focuses and more difficulty in making use of their Endaze because of their spell-casting duties. The point being, it isn't a direct steal. Similar yes, a straight copy no.


The OP's concept goes too far in that it steps on the toes of DNC, COR and BRD.

I addressed DNC up there. As for BRDs and CORs, again: why must this step on the job's toes? Could it not possibly complement them? I'm a newb. A big newb. I don't even have either of these two jobs unlocked, let alone much experience playing alongside them. I honestly couldn't tell you the difference between a madrigal and a minuet and all I really know about COR is that they have a funny {White Mage Die} thing. So I can't claim to speak from a place where I have experience in what it's like to be a BRD or COR. Forgive any ignorance on my part. But don't both these jobs have abilities which inflict enemies with elemental weaknesses? Why not allow those elemental weaknesses to grant a RDM's Endaze buffs a further moderate increase? Let's allow Endaze buffs to stack with rolls and songs. Complementary jobs rather than jobs competing for effectiveness. The Endazes as described above in the OP aren't exactly overflowing with options. There's only really three types that would ever be used as far as I can see. I don't see how this could be seen as moving in on BRD/COR's territories in anything but the most flimsy of ways.

I'm fully aware that this is a relevant issue. I myself mentioned all three jobs of DNC, COR and BRD in the OP. But whilst I agree with the relevance, I'm not convinced that the issues are particularly weighty.

And if the point was simply that Endaze would step on DNC/BRD/COR's shoes because of sheer ability similarity, well that's another moot point to me. SE are fine with toe-stepping. See SCH for proof. Don't get me wrong: I love SCH; from all that I've read I think it looks to be a fine, balanced job. But it undoubtedly 'steps on other jobs' toes' in the sense of sheer capability-similarity, far more so than this fictitious Endaze thing. I'm cool with SCH doing that. It allows a greater chance of building a party with the desired elements. I don't see jobs sharing capabilities, effect or theme-wise, as anything particularly 'bad', so long as appropriate balance is factored in.

And lastly, just to briefly comment on AOE buffs and why I think they're a viable answer to the backline-RDM issue. No: RDM isn't known for AOEs. But, quite frankly, I think these are the best solution to the SE-concern because a) parties love them, which addresses getting RDMs asked to be up on the frontline and b) RDM shouldn't be receiving any self-boosts because (in my opinion) it messes dangerously with the job's current soloing balance.


Deeke's idea was to simply use that popular support capability to our advantage--moving us to the front rather than keeping us in back. We know it has flaws, that's why we're wearing our thinking caps.

Not 'thinking caps', Hypothesizing Hats!! But yes, pretty much exactly. Personally, the idea given in the OP is to dangle a carrot sufficiently juicy enough that it will actually get noticed. Valuable party buffs can do that. I'm honestly not sure about the appeal of a RDM simply swinging moderately harder himself. I just don't see party leaders giving much of a crap.


Dont fix it if it aint broken.

Another forum member that I'm apprehensive to reply to. It'd be cool if this thread didn't descend into yet another tired melee-rdm 'discussion', so all I'm going to say is that, MrMageo I see you as being a non-typical RDM (take that as a compliment if you want). You're the type of player I was referring to when I mentioned:

The specific issue that SE have stated concern over is quite simply:

That RDMs are nearly always on the backlines.

(Yes there are exceptions, both game-circumstantial and player-individual, but backline-only is inarguably the Common Trend.)

What I'd like is for you to acknowledge that the backline-melee issue is a general community issue. Furthermore, an issue that will never be changed by 'Educating The People' or 'Proving Them Wrong'. If you honestly believe that this might happen, you should take off the Hypothesizing Hat and wear your Happy La-La Land Hat instead, as it's more befitting. Fact is, it's SE playing with the idea. So it must have some merit to it.


On to the topic at hand I would prefer some type of Scholarish ability like the dark arts/ light arts thing.

It would increase our Weapon Skills/STR/DEX/AGI etc while sacraficing our Magical skills while active. 10% looks like a fair number because it wont push us over the threshold of becoming a high damaging class.
and
Give a Berzerk-like boost to Enspells with some kind of penalty in exchange, perhaps such as losing 3 MP per swing while its active, which would oppose the benefit of Refresh. This way, a RDM can briefly move up to the frontline as needed, but not all the time. They would have to carefully consider how to use the ability and SE wouldn't break RDM by overbuffing them.

This is the other option I see also I suppose. Assuming through playtesting that the melee-boost offered makes it worthwhile to use, I can see it being a viable way to getting RDMs up front, at least on a staggered, occasional basis in between castings. I like that the concept adds a penalty to magic, Kitten's mp-drain idea makes sense especially.

The biiiig issue I have is that it's a melee-boost for the RDM themself. I think by now you know how I personally feel about that. :P It opens ever more options for RDM on their own to go about and do other things they weren't previously able to attempt. Again, in the current game, RDM solo is at a nice balance - can do some things, can't do other things. I'm wary of anything that alters that in the favour of 'can do'. The number of available types of RDM-solo activity does't need adding to.


The issue is: Can Red Mage play a melee role? Sure. Does a Red Mage have more important things to do other than melee? Yes.

Not quite. :P I think the issue actually is: does RDM have a single community-accepted frontline role within the game?

SE seem to be worried that the answer is a no.


Which leads nicely on to the alternative answer to "Does a Red Mage have more important things to do other than melee?"

That alternative answer being: "Yes, for the time-being at least."

Give a Berzerk-like boost to Enspells with some kind of penalty in exchange, perhaps such as losing 3 MP per swing while its active, which would oppose the benefit of Refresh. This way, a RDM can briefly move up to the frontline as needed, but not all the time. They would have to carefully consider how to use the ability and SE wouldn't break RDM by overbuffing them. I like it. At 75, I can currently hit about 18-19 additional damage with Enblizzard, 20 on Iceday. a Berserk effect boosting damage... maybe another 20 or 30 points per cast? Theoretically, I wouldn't mind if the only addition to RDM was that our Enspells did 40-50 damage a swing with just capped skill at 75.

Of course, I like my antenna idea, but I'm willing to sacrifice that concept. I like the antenna idea too, but unless it's potential bonuses equaled or exceeded staves(without stacking with them), then there's no promotion for us to pick up a sword rather than a staff.

I promote shortening of En-spell breakpoints because it allows for a higher damage potential(which is the the start and end of frontline activity), offers a somewhat unique niche for RDM on frontline, in the form consistent magical damage, and, in the comfort of knowing our damage is relatively sound(in En-spells), we can gear toward actually making contact with with the mob(re: Acc gear).

While I'm happy with the MAcc boost we were given on 10 Mar, I propose re-tooling the MAcc calculated at time of casting. No sense we should have to wear Chasuble, Wise cap, braconi(and like-products) full-time to keep up the cap. That is, unless they plan on introducing more gear like it.
The issue is: Can Red Mage play a melee role? Sure. Does a Red Mage have more important things to do other than melee? Yes. Well that's the point, isn't it? We're at a place where RDM meleé is extremely situational, the general atmosphere is trying to make it more commonplace.

While we're sitting here brainstorming new traits and abilities, part of a meleé update that is just important is to break what's keeping us on the backline.
Sorry, I should clarify. The point I'm trying to make is that RDM-soloing capabilities are balanced overall. There are some things we can solo that are simply crazy, but on the other hand we don't tend to fare so well soloing T+ straight-up melee. We can solo somethings that, arguably, no single player should be able to. There are other things we can't solo. I didn't mean to suggest that RDM-solo might become broken from an update because it would allow us to do what we already do.. but even better. By broken, I meant more that it further increase our soloing options. We can take on enough things as it is - I just don't think RDMs need to be boosted in other areas of solo also. That seems too much.In that respect, you are right. However, the balance is backwards. We're soloing mobs we shouldn't be, while struggling against things we shouldn't.

More to the flavor of the game, what we do solo is subjective to people's opinions. The game remains group-based, and it's in group settings where our meleé capabilities flounder. Because it flounders in group settings in a group based game, there's an imbalance there.

Does that answer the very real solo phenomenon? No. But the indirect enhancements I proposed wouldn't break the solo balance that was created.

If anything, the developers could probably do well explore avenues that make those things that shouldn't be soloed truly impossible to solo, without penalizing or excluding magic users in general(the way ToAU monsters do).
(Also BP, I can't help but worry what kind of an impact your proposed changes to Fast Cast would do for Utsusemi usage. o.o; )You know, I was thinking the same. The only solution I came up with was simply to drastically shorten the cast times of individual spells in our roster. Since Utsusemi is not a native RDM spell, and there is no direct boost to Fast Cast, there'd be no exploitation of Utsusemi's timer.

But then, I was reading the thread on FFXIclopedia, and someone came up with something even better. They proposed that, rather than reducing cast times, simply reducing or removing the casting animations, allowing the character to function normally after casting a spell. A change to game mechanics(rather than a RDM-specific trait), would allow BLU, DRK, PLD, and NIN to benefit from this too. The post can be found here (http://forums.ffxiclopedia.org/viewtopic.php?t=11219&start=15).
Not quite. A RDM would actually need to use sword or dagger - they aren't going to connect with a staff, simple as that. RDM accuracy is a big enough issue as it is without attempting to use a subjob level weapon. So the RDM is forced to make that mACC sacrifice if they want to get up front. It's not a nice sacrifice, but it's certainly conditional.You know, looking back over your original post, you mentioned that... dunno how I missed it.

However, I take exception the to the popularity in sacrificing MAcc. The problem is that RDM is a hybrid job. It's meant to function with both magic and meleé. At the least, Acc and MAcc are our bread and butter. I can agree with losing out on potency more magically based weapons offer(and damage more meleé based weapons offer), but there is a bare minimum MAcc we must be provided to properly function, and since 50+, the staves have been the only item to provide that minimum. Our magical capability is simply left flopping about again unless an equal alternative is introduced.

BLU has shown us that meleé and magical capability can go hand-in-hand, it's time to make it work for RDM as well.
And lastly, just to briefly comment on AOE buffs and why I think they're a viable answer to the backline-RDM issue. No: RDM isn't known for AOEs. But, quite frankly, I think these are the best solution to the SE-concern because a) parties love them, which addresses getting RDMs asked to be up on the frontline and b) RDM shouldn't be receiving any self-boosts because (in my opinion) it messes dangerously with the job's current soloing balance.Like I said, while I think the En-daze is conceptually a great idea, it comes too close to mimicking party-range support jobs, which is a concept I feel is opposite the flavor the job and a road we shouldn't be traveling.

However, that doesn't mean that I feel nothing should be done with it.

Consider if you will: RDM support works largely around single-target effects. Perhaps if we borrowed a page out of THFs book? Taking the "En-daze" effect and making it sort of line-of-sight; anyone directly opposite the mob(as you are fighting it), and perhaps anyone directly behind them or yourself, gaining the benefits of the effect. In essence, a very SATA-esque approach.

Well that's the point, isn't it? We're at a place where RDM meleé is extremely situational, the general atmosphere is trying to make it more commonplace.

While we're sitting here brainstorming new traits and abilities, part of a meleé update that is just important is to break what's keeping us on the backline.

Perhaps Red Mage will obtain a short temporary melee role, along the lines of how a Dancer melee's.
Red Mage has a lot of oppertunities to fight monsters, especially in solo occasions and at level 75.

I really doubt Red Mage needs to waste mp on En-spells and what not in order to be able to melee among others in Experience Points party's. I melee'd with Red Mage up to level 40 ish. Do we really need to melee to level 75? It's called Red Mage.
So a lot of you want to see it different and perhaps it will. But is it really a problem that a Red Mage has to use Magic? Ofcourse not!

Melee Red Mage is one of my favourite non-sense discussions among "FFXi vs. WoW" and "PS2 limitations are a pest."

If you want to melee so badly, ask your pt if it's ok to swing your sword. Fact is; they're usually OK with it unless the monsters use some kind of annoying AoE ability. Several times i've had meleeing Red Mage's. It's not that big of a deal. :) If it works out for you, great, you might be able to put out some real damage too. If it doesn't, you just convinced 5 party members that it's a stupid idea. ><

Also, as it's usually ok to melee up to level 40, a few levels higher, say 60, you can swing away in Campaign again. I like playing melee in Campaign, but as I said before, I wouldn't even want to in exp party's.

A White Mage with ninja sub can put out some good damage at certain levels.
A Bard at level 75 with the right equipment can as well.

But then, I was reading the thread on FFXIclopedia, and someone came up with something even better. They proposed that, rather than reducing cast times, simply reducing or removing the casting animations, allowing the character to function normally after casting a spell. A change to game mechanics(rather than a RDM-specific trait), would allow BLU, DRK, PLD, and NIN to benefit from this too. The post can be found here (http://forums.ffxiclopedia.org/viewtopic.php?t=11219&start=15).

The petty child within me insists that I mention that Silette yoinked mentioned idea from this earlier thread (http://forums.ffxiclopedia.org/viewtopic.php?t=10563). :P

Suffice to say that my inate terror of imbalancing RDM-solo is a recent change of opinion on my part. (Kyreth's words made a lot of sense to me.)

The petty child within me insists that I mention that Silette yoinked mentioned idea from this earlier thread (http://forums.ffxiclopedia.org/viewtopic.php?t=10563). :P

Suffice to say that my inate terror of imbalancing RDM-solo is a recent change of opinion on my part. (Kyreth's words made a lot of sense to me.) I remember that thread.

I see where Kyreth(and you), are coming from, but you seem adamant about preserving a balance that was disrupted to begin with. If it means realizing the job's meleé concept, then perhaps we should be losing out on the ability to solo HNMs and the like, but that's for the developers to decide, as it's they who have ever had the power to stop RDM from soloing Genbu(and co.), but have done nothing about it.

In the context of that thread, Kyreth was intent on thinking in extremes. No one's asking for a STR boost and Attack Bonus traits. To ask for something like that really would tread into dedicated DD territory, and it's been stated, time and again, that no one here wants that. However, it is possible to bolster meleé capability without directly improving damage, as I outlined in various possibilities here (http://www.ffxionline.com/forums/774058-post4.html). Nothing directly or vastly increasing attack(except the En-spell idea), nothing allowing us to suddenly exp off NMs. RDM solo is--first off--just that. SOLO. It's incidental to the larger game, which is group play, in the face of which our meleé flounders. Second, nothing offered thus far will rock the balance that already exists when solo. We'll solo a few meleéd NMs only a little quicker(but enough to make the larger RDM population happy, while the scant handful that like to go after heavier NMs/HNMs can continue unmolested.
I really doubt Red Mage needs to waste mp on En-spells and what not in order to be able to melee among others in Experience Points party's.Good thing En-spells are so cheap. ANd, you know, Refresh. I melee'd with Red Mage up to level 40 ish. Do we really need to melee to level 75?Given that the job is billed as a battle mage, and that S-E is making considerations to move back to that, I'd expect no less. It's called Red Mage.
So a lot of you want to see it different and perhaps it will. But is it really a problem that a Red Mage has to use Magic? Ofcourse not!

Melee Red Mage is one of my favourite non-sense discussions among "FFXi vs. WoW" and "PS2 limitations are a pest."Your argument is no less nonsensical.

You seem to think that just because we bear the term "Mage" in our title, that we should be relegated solely to back line. Exactly what is Blue Mage then, I wonder?

There's no problem at all that RDM uses magic. No one's questioning it. It's a given. But there's no reason that a front-line intended job should be consigned to casting on the backline.

If you want to melee so badly, ask your pt if it's ok to swing your sword.Which brings me back to my point. We shouldn't be asking permission. It should be commonplace, with backlining the less common practice.
Fact is; they're usually OK with it unless the monsters use some kind of annoying AoE ability. Several times i've had meleeing Red Mage's. It's not that big of a deal. :) If it works out for you, great, you might be able to put out some real damage too. If it doesn't, you just convinced 5 party members that it's a stupid idea. ><The AoE argument doesn't hold water. Unless the mob AoE's Silence, the RDM's survival odds are far stronger than any DD, simply because we can protect ourselves. I'm more confident any RDM will remain standing after an AoE move than the meleé he's standing beside.

My point re-emerges that we shouldn't be prostrating ourselves in humility to properly frontline in a party. We should be able to without people automatically rolling their eyes. It shouldn't be a matter of somehow convincing the players we put up good numbers, solid measures should already be in place to provide for good numbers, while maintaining a casting presence. After that, it's all up to individual player skill, as it is any other time.
Also, as it's usually ok to melee up to level 40, a few levels higher, say 60, you can swing away in Campaign again. I like playing melee in Campaign, but as I said before, I wouldn't even want to in exp party's."Up to level 40" is not "Up to level 75," is it? And Campaign is not a party setting, is it?

The job is the original hybrid; it was intended to be able to perform casting duties while maintaining a frontline presence. I'm not satisfied that frontlining is a situational "when-all-the-stars-are-aligned" dice-roll. It's time for that martial aspect to the RDM class to get attention. If you dislike the idea of frontlining, and can't accept that it might finally become a cornerstone of RDM's group play, then maybe you should consider Scholar.

Regardless of how you feel about RDM frontlining, S-E's already said they're delving into possibilities. This thread is simply for the brainstorming of possibilities among players. This is not a philosophical debate about the appropriateness of frontlining.

If you have no ideas to share on how to make that frontline a reality, then you have nothing to contribute to this thread.

Rather than quoting every single thing you've said and saying the exact opposite, I'll just point out a few obvious things i'd like to correct which actually fit to what I was trying to say.

Also, I'm a Red Mage 75, I leveled it myself and I have an opinion with experience about meleeing alongwith ideas such as Campaign, thus I think I have enough right to post in this thread.. My point is not to argue or to bash the idea's from the posters in this thread.


I really doubt Red Mage needs to waste mp on En-spells and what not in order to be able to melee among others in Experience Points party's.

Good thing En-spells are so cheap. ANd, you know, Refresh.

I wasn't talking about solely the En-spells. Refresh is great. But every person who played Red Mage to the highest level knows that this doesn't mean your MP is unlimited. Everyone's MP is unlimited if you don't look at how long and how often they use the /heal function.

It's called Red Mage.
So a lot of you want to see it different and perhaps it will. But is it really a problem that a Red Mage has to use Magic? Ofcourse not!

Melee Red Mage is one of my favourite non-sense discussions among "FFXi vs. WoW" and "PS2 limitations are a pest."

Your argument is no less nonsensical.

You seem to think that just because we bear the term "Mage" in our title, that we should be relegated solely to back line. Exactly what is Blue Mage then, I wonder?

There's no problem at all that RDM uses magic. No one's questioning it. It's a given. But there's no reason that a front-line intended job should be consigned to casting on the backline.

To keep it short:

Compare the Blue Mage and Red Mage spell lists with eachother.
Ninja is a "cold blooded killer."
Summoner "Calls forth ancient avatars to fight by their side."
I don't see that issue brought up half as much as this Red Mage thing.


Fact is; they're usually OK with it unless the monsters use some kind of annoying AoE ability. Several times i've had meleeing Red Mage's. It's not that big of a deal. If it works out for you, great, you might be able to put out some real damage too. If it doesn't, you just convinced 5 party members that it's a stupid idea. ><

The AoE argument doesn't hold water. Unless the mob AoE's Silence, the RDM's survival odds are far stronger than any DD, simply because we can protect ourselves. I'm more confident any RDM will remain standing after an AoE move than the meleé he's standing beside.

That's almost exactly my point!! You don't just protect yourself and take advantage of the rest of party to melee. You protect others! You heal others! And I don't know if you've levelled Red Mage to 75, but in all seriousness, you know it is NOT going to benefit your party in that way. Unless the game community generally accepts Red Mage for doing this and invites another mage to... bla bla bla. Come on. However, I do remember that this thread is not (unlike so many others, with damage calculations and all) is not about how to make a Red Mage work in Party situations with the current system. The thing is, allthough I have always kind of ignored the Red Mage melee threads for something stupid, I haven't been a Red Mage since that long.

My point is, i'm sure there can be things added (preferably not changed unless it's really good) so Red Mage's can do some more damage. But do we really have to? Red Mage can be really stressful just doing what it's currently doing in experience points party's. And it does it darn good.

Finally, I also feel I have to say this. In this thread (and definetely not only this one) it's always about experience points party's. I've levelled quite a few jobs to 75 (9 in total, with 6, nearly 7 on my main character) and I've spend a lot of time doing "endgame" or at least "high end" activities. Please don't missread this as me saying I'm better than anyone or something silly like that. But after this long time (over 600 days of /playtime on just my main character ><) my general experience might have been changed a bit. I definetely haven't lost my fun, but for example; I always hated Healing Magic. I really really hated it, my friend levelled White Mage to 42 for me while I was levelling his Drk to 42, for as subjob to his Red Mage, in a static party. I've always wanted Red Mage to 75 because of it's capabilities at the maximum level. In endgame purposes the whole Healing Magic role kind of fades, with exception of a few things where it isn't as bad. (I for example do not play Red Mage in Dynamis.) I never levelled it untill recently, because I hated the exp partying from 1 to 75. What i'm saying is that I've come to the point where I didn't care about it anymore. It's just another job to 75, just stick through it and poof, only few weeks later it's 75 too. So maybe that's why i'm not all that interested in party play.

But I'd also like to say that I did really enjoy doing meleeing with melee gear and "buffs" in Campaign Battle's, mainly because I didn't have to use any other spells or keep track of fast going party play.

By all means though, keep up the "kooky" idea's for Red Mage melee.

Why is it that so many RDM melee update proposals boil down to Tim Taylor-esque cries for "MOAR POWER!!1! *grunt* *grunt* *gruuunt!*"? I feel that Dahc has a point in that we should think of reasons to let RDM melee other than "it hurts" -- because if we get too good at pumping out melee damage numbers, we'll be inundated with DD ONRY RDMs who never actually support the party, see the birth of viable RDMx6 parties, and other unsettling trends.

However, I personally don't think that giving RDM very DNC-like buffing capability would suit the job. Yes, we buff, but we buff directly, one person at a time. AoE effects are a weakness of the job and should stay that way. Not to mention, lifting dazes straight from DNC -- even if repurposed in spell form -- would indeed step on DNC's toes, IMO.

That said, the basic idea of using a daze-like mechanic as the reason we should keep meleeing is something I've already thought of. However, my thought was not using it to buff the party like a DNC does, but using it to enhance our capability to enfeeble a mob -- enfeebling used to be one of our calling cards, remember? Sort of a DNC/COR hybrid mechanic. My concept is that when we have an Enspell up, any Enspell damage we inflict adds a very short-duration debuff that causes enfeebles of the matching element to wear off slower. As long as the "daze" is up, debuffs of that element tick down at half speed. Imagine that the duration of a debuff is represented with an hourglass, and this Enspell change lets you pinch the spout in the middle so it's narrower -- but you have to stay right there and keep pinching or it'll bounce back to normal width. This is different from both DNC, which uses Dazes to buff, and COR, which improves potency of enfeebles.

To be fair, this alone won't solve our "need permission to melee and probably won't get it" and "usefulness of our melee is extraordinarily situational" problems. It should be just one part of a carefully-built package that makes frontline vs. backline a tactical choice as opposed to LOL vs. OMG. I'll reserve talking about the rest of my ideas for if I'm asked, though, particularly as I'd be repeating myself anyway. -- Pteryx

I'm still pushing for the same things I'm always pushing for.

1) a method that brings a RDM to the front line should not keep him there. Nor should it ever be more important to take even a single extra swing than cast some minor spell. This means that the daze effect shouldn't last 5 seconds.

2) break the dominance of RDM plus BRD parties. I don't mind either. I don't mind them working together. but not all ideal layouts should include both. To this end, I'd actually love to see RDM do more of filling BRD's role. And I think running up to take a couple swings every fight would be a fine way to implement that.

This silly idea just came up to me:

Hitting the mob (no matter of Double Attack) will instantly cast a certain pre-chosen spell. For example, chosing Paralyze, then hitting the mob will inflict the spell without interruption rate and less resist rate.

It wouldn't work like this, but this just came up, I'd have to think it through more. I'd like to avoid a DNC like system. I want to keep the idea of a mage knight.

Hitting the mob (no matter of Double Attack) will instantly cast a certain pre-chosen spell. For example, chosing Paralyze, then hitting the mob will inflict the spell without interruption rate and less resist rate.


Well, it's a gimmick that wouldn't bother me. It has a bit of redundancy but that's not really a big problem considering how redundant certain spells in the game are.

If meleeing for a Red Mage is that important to you, how do you feel about melee White Mages? White Mages have better STR and get gear like Reverend Mail, high damage hammers, Hexa Strike and haste from Blessed. Does this mean a white mage should be meleeing in an experience party? I know for a fact that my White Mage does more damage than my Red Mage in a melee setting, so maybe the Red Mage should sit back and be the support instead!

And how about Black mages? (Claustrum! Spirit Taker!)

I think I brought this up at one point.

Nah, couldn't be. (http://www.ffxionline.com/forums/race-job-type-q/70202-red-mage-versus-white-mage-role-reversal.html)

You probably did. I haven't visited the WHM forums in over a year though, which is about the same amount of time I haven't touched my WHM (other than to learn new spells). It's dangerous to draw conclusions from gear though, otherwise the Holy Breastplate might lead you to think that white mages are supposed to tank.

Personally speaking, Joytoy is the only thing that makes RDM melee tolerable for me. I dislike subbing BLU or DRK on my RDM just for vorpal because I miss my solo na-spells and teleports.

I've tried an enhancing sword once but I really didn't like it - and the Kraken club was funny for all of 30 minutes before I got tired of missing on EM monsters/eating 300 tp WSes.

Given that the job is billed as a battle mage, and that S-E is making considerations to move back to that, I'd expect no less.

Red Mages

Capable of using black and white magic; adept at swordsmanship. However red mages take far longer to master powerful spells than white or black mages due to their broad range of abilities

Blue Mage

Employing the legendary arts of Aht Urghan, these formidable fighter-mages employ elegantly curved blades for close combat, while decimating thier enemies from afar using fell magic mastered from thier opponents.


I'll leave you to decide which one says anything close to "battle mage."

Yes, Yellow Mage and Ptreyx, I went there.

To all people vouching for the Red Mage meleeing in experience points party's I'd just like to say:

Get over it :P

These discussions have been going on for far too long in my opinion. Get to level 75, with all the merits you want, solo some Notorious Monsters, then come back and see if you still really care about Red Mage's meleeing in experience points party's.

There are lots of good idea's in this thread, but in the end it's a mage. With a decent sword skill. But you won't even learn the most damaging sword skill unless you use Warrior as a subjob.

I'll leave you to decide which one says anything close to "battle mage."

Yes, Yellow Mage and Ptreyx, I went there.

These fighter-mages can utilize both black and white magic, as well as the arts of the sword.

Explain this one then, for those who are so against RDM Melee.

I know your tricks! You can't get me!! /sarcasticparanoia

There are lots of good idea's in this thread, but in the end it's a mage.

You obviously missed kitten's fallacy above you (which you must have thanked blindly, then): what about Blue Mage?

With a decent sword skill. But you won't even learn the most damaging sword skill unless you use Warrior as a subjob.

Or Paladin (me). Or Dark Knight (Calli). Oh, and let us not forget the aforementioned Blue Mage.

EDIT: Electricity, FFXIclopedia got that from here (http://www.playonline.com/ff11us/intro/about/job01.html?pageID=about), a much more official source.

People keep forgetting that this concept isn't about players themselves getting all frothy in the pants about moving up to the front-line.

It's about SE officially mentioning they themselves are a bit frothy.

Toss around as many battle-mage definitions as you like, tell RDM players to get over themselves as much as you like. It's irrelevant.

SE are interested in this.


/equip Head "Hypothesizing Hat" or don't bother posting in the thread. :P

EDIT: Electricity, FFXIclopedia got that from here (http://www.playonline.com/ff11us/intro/about/job01.html?pageID=about), a much more official source.

Oh yeah, that's right. Thanks.

Well, Damn. There goes my conspiracy theory. :P

You obviously missed kitten's fallacy above you (which you must have thanked blindly, then): what about Blue Mage?


You're missing something else I said. I was also pointing out the different spell lists that Red Mage and Blue Mage or any other comparable job has. It seems like you're the one missing the point on it. :P

Omgwtfbbqkitten was pointing out how Blue Mage was much more a "battle mage" than Red Mage, using descriptions created by the developpers themselves.

I think I may have said tis back on page one or maybe in some other post. I would prefer not to see any update to RDM melee. I worked hard as many other have to be able to call ourselves hybrid mages. I have toyed with /nin, /blu, /dnc, drk, and even /sam. The tools are available to being a hybrid RDM. However with the tools must come knowledge.

Its nt the numbers we need a fixing in, it is the the players who wish to become hybrid RDM's, and those who oppose it that need fixing.

A few things you need to nderstand about this Hybrid RDM thing is..

1. We are not meant to be DD's, we are there for DoT.
2. We are a support job, that includes backline and frontline.

I hypothesize that instead of whirring up a think blog. Filled with ripe anti-melee comments, we should instead discuss Inteligent melee from the perspective of RDM.

What I mean by this of course, is providing insight into the hybrid style of rdm. Of course I expect a barrage from the anti- camp, that of course is to be expected. The main concern in that camp is change. They do not wish to have to go out and buy a new set of gear and learn a new art. As BBQ so graiciously posted RDM is an adept swordsman, and their are many ways to do this, sensibly.

1. Know your enemy

If you are fighting a monster with AoE silence and sleep, of course you want to stay back as far as possible, it becomes costly to remove silence on the front line and you just become another burden for the whm or /whm to fix.

If your fighting a monster with severe aoe enfeebles (slow,blind,para) bring a job that you can use to combat those enfeebles. /DNC has a nifty little erase tool that can remove most status debuffs.

If your fighting a monster with hard hitting AoE damage, bring a job that has a curaga, such as /BLU. This will allow you to support the party by curring everyone (cheaper than a /whm if I may say so).

What it boil down to is common sense and smart play, if you know the enemy before hand you can fare well against it while meleeing.

2. Know your role.

Your next priority is what is the job you have been brought in to do... are you healing, enfeebling, general support.

There are sub jobs for all of these positions

/BLU, offers curaga, sleepga, a cheaper cure 3
/DNC, offers an erase, a curage, drain samba, aspir samba
/DRK, offers absorb spells, drain, aspir, attack boosts

even /sam brings something to the table, The addition of meditation makes getting those weak weaponskills of more frequently.

This is not to say that backline is also always out of the equation at time you may need your staves, if this is the situation then your meleeing becomes counter productive. It is something you must find for yourself. Practice enfeebling monsters without the staves equipped. Once you are able to post a 75-80% success rate without staves you will be fine to leave them at home.

The anti-melee camp will try and combat this, no doubt in my mind however here is a few things you can tell them.

"Why keep a RDM around if they are meleeing ill just drop it and get a DD"

Sure you may gain a 15% increase in damage but you also get a 100% decrease in support. When warriors monks and samurai can offer as much support as a RDM then you have a viable arguement.

"You don't have enough room for all your gear"

You may not have enough room for all your gear carying around 5 ses of gear that you may or may not use. A hybrid carries gear to fix his short commings, that means skill + gear of ACC+ gear.

"Your pidly damage just feeds the mob TP"

Depending on the subjob chosen you can quickly recover from that eventual TP move with curaga's (DNC/BLU), dispel (RDM), Erase(DNC). With the options available now to RDM that boost hybrid abilities this no longer holds water.

"Its only a highly situational thing"

No it is as situational as main healing. You can make it what you wan't to. Their is no ideal set up because RDM alters a setup depending on its role. A Hybrid mage is capable of doing all the fun backline suff while on the front line.


Lets hypothesize this for a moment. A rdm X6 Party

RDM/NIN -tank
RDM/THF - hate control
RMD/DNC - Main healer
RDM/WAR - DD/back up Tank
RDM/DRK - DD
RDM/BLU - Support/DD


Tell me what I am missing, this party will function just as good as a traditional party. The kill speed may be a bit slower, but the fact is this party will be damn near imposible to take down and there will be virtually no downtime.. They can all pull, they can all melee, they can all nuke, they can all enfeeble, they all have refresh and conver, they can all take damage, they can all cure.


The reason RDM is heavily frowned up is because 9/10 times it is not done inteligently and in all honesty this is what we need to hypothesize, how to teach people, who want a hand out.

*Yawn*

Just what exactly did any of that have to do with this particular thread?

Basically it means no amount of hypothesies nor boosts (which imo have already occured) will bring RDM to the frontline. As an active hybrid RDM the key factor I see most people miss out on is the core values of our job. It takes place in all the aspects RDM's look at. we are not a single dedicated job, we may main heal ut we still provide other support, we may enfeeble but we still support in other ways. RDM is a multi purpose job, you can gear yourself to be better in certain areas but the fact is we are a support job first and xxxxx last same goes with melee.

I provided m example of what id like to see in an update but I also acknowledge that we wont most likely wont be seeing an update.

This post is to define what the acctual principles of a hybrid RDM and judging from the last 2 pages the topic was burried after about the third post when BBQ showed up.

*Yawn*

Just what exactly did any of that have to do with this particular thread?

This forum has a tradition of completely derailing off topics and having huge discussions about unimportant things that seem to never get to an end. :P

To all people vouching for the Red Mage meleeing in experience points party's I'd just like to say:

Get over it :P

These discussions have been going on for far too long in my opinion. Get to level 75, with all the merits you want, solo some Notorious Monsters, then come back and see if you still really care about Red Mage's meleeing in experience points party's.

You must have somehow missed the posts by BurningPanther and Renarudo. Just because you didn't even give a shit about your RDM -- you admittedly rushed the job to 75, barely exploring its possibilities -- doesn't mean no one else does, either. Frankly, you don't have a clue why most people took the job up.

---

I don't want to see RDMs become DDs. I'll leave magical front line DD to the BLUs.

I still think the ticket is something that puts them up frequently but for very short periods of time. Not full-time front line. And it has to help everyone. Anything self-centric = waste of time. We don't need DD#17.

You must have somehow missed the posts by BurningPanther and Renarudo. Just because you didn't even give a shit about your RDM -- you admittedly rushed the job to 75, barely exploring its possibilities -- doesn't mean no one else does, either. Frankly, you don't have a clue why most people took the job up.

---

I don't want to see RDMs become DDs. I'll leave magical front line DD to the BLUs.

I still think the ticket is something that puts them up frequently but for very short periods of time. Not full-time front line. And it has to help everyone. Anything self-centric = waste of time. We don't need DD#17.

Woosh. I won't copy my previous posts.
And you're basically saying the same as I am too.

I'll be honest. OP was tl;dr, and when I saw the same people on each side of the battle line in the replies, tossing around the same invective and rhetoric as 6 months ago, I stopped reading and started scanning for substance.

I'd just like to chime in with a few things. Whether or not you feel that enhancing rdm's frontline capability is a needful thing or even a good idea, it is something that SE has expressed interest in doing. If we take it as a given that a rdm melee buff is something that's going to happen (which seems like a sure thing to me but we all know I've been wrong before), there's merit in discussion just how it should be done.

I agree with the sentiment that it would be pointless and destructive to nudge rdms toward the frontline by improving their damage output. There needs to be some other reason for us to draw a weapon that's beneficial enough to the party to be worth considering. When I made a similar suggestion awhile back, I had the great axe "-break" weaponskills in mind, but steps and sambas are good examples too.

I think the idea needs to be taken in a new direction though; there's already way to much stuff that does attack+ et al. Thinking back to that rosethorn WS that was previewed with WotG, what if we had a WS that gave a debuff effect similar to the Gallant's Roll buff? Maybe an enhanced version of Flat Blade could give a short amnesia effect that we could pop at 20% to ward off back to back Pecking Flurries and the like. These are some mechanics that haven't been done to death.

To make one specific reply, I have gotten rdm to 75 with merits, soloed, duoed, trioed some NMs with various methods, and tanked some HNM level stuff. I've done the pink mage thing, the mauve mage thing, the purple mage thing, you name it. It's far from true that I've done it all, but I think it's fair to say that I've explored just about every facet of the rdm job and yes, I do still care about getting to melee in parties. Not enough to lead a million rdm march on SE HQ, but enough to hypothesize, anyway.

Ninja edit: This article (http://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/3627/mmo_class_design_up_with_hybrids_.php) showed up a couple days ago. I think you can view it without a login... It's about the challenges of designing balanced hybrid character classes. It uses an economics model to explain why anyone with cure always gets pressured into main healing and similar situations, offering ways to design gameplay to avoid that. Interesting read.

I think SE's real motivation for even considering a update to RDM in terms of melee has much to do with the fact that SCH is now nipping at the heels of RDM. It was pretty clear the job wasn't done when it was released, nowhere near as complete as DNC was, at any rate.

Now SCH is rounded out and its been a common sight in manaburn and merit parties alike, able to keep up respectably with the damands of such PT and, whats more, its a very attractive endgame job now as well.

The problem with a RDM melee update is, however, parties still generally want one mage as a healer at merit level, so no matter how much you tweak RDM for melee, they're still gonna be asked to put the sword away and backline it.

Which brings me to a point I think I've almost successfully beaten to death:

Build your own PTs; Persue small PT setups if you want to melee.

Its not gonna happen in pick-ups so long as RDM stays as good a healer as it is. And I doubt SE is going to gimp RDM in that regard at this point, they.

BTW, we're still waiting for you to eat that Time Mage hat. Perhaps we should just settle on a cake modeled after Scholar's Mortarboard?

Which brings me to a point I think I've almost successfully beaten to death:

Build your own PTs; Persue small PT setups if you want to melee.

Its not gonna happen in pick-ups so long as RDM stays as good a healer as it is. And I doubt SE is going to gimp RDM in that regard at this point, they.
Screw meleeing now =P RDM/nin out pulling brds is where its at.
<.< >.>;
Anyways....
Yeah. Only real tweaking I can think of for making rdm a bit more specialized as a hybrid would to make some of the newer jobs abilities/spells/traits added to rdm at their lowest sub tier.
Just you know so they can't really get a benefit from subbing blu for lets say cocoon, when they would end up having it it at like the level you'd get it from /blu.
Which would also call for D to B- rank skills.

And no, not 4 shadows from ni subbed, that would officially break rdm >_>;
....wait, don't even add nin to that equation, rdm with native utsusemi + voke sub = plds and nins out of the job.

<.<;

BTW, we're still waiting for you to eat that Time Mage hat. Perhaps we should just settle on a cake modeled after Scholar's Mortarboard?:rofl:

well SE's exact consideration was. "We are considering spells to allow RDM to engage the enemy more often.

This does not reflect a garunteed buff to RDM itself, but potentially spells to allow RDM to do these things.

In all honesty, 3xDD, RDM,COR(BRD),SCH looks like the new gravey setup imo. RDM can pull mobs better than a BRD any day of the week. The new spells scholar has gained allows them to focus on main healing and support greater then before.

I dont consider scholar so much as nipping at our heals but more so as the "consideration" set down by SE. To be perfectly honest RDM needs an overhaul like I need a hole in the head. The job works great in what it was designed to do. Yes itcan melee, yes it can cast spells. But the fact the job cannot do any of these as well as the more natural jobs makes it a support job. When it comes to true support RDM takes the cake.

Once people stop looking at RDM melee as DD I think things will work a little better. Comparing it to a DD is like comparing apples and oranges. A RDM can't hit the damage level they do but a DD can't support like a RDM.

To whom ever put I'll leave maical frontline to the blues I like that. A job that can burn its MP in a minute then do nothing for 2-3 fights. Or a job that is completley MPself reliant, that can support the party.

The sad truth is, 90% of people look at RDM melee ass backwards. People from both camps. RDM melee is another form of support. You can argue all you like that support is hasting and refreshing. But what of WS's and SC's, they support the party as much as a haste. Ironically RDM can do both at the same time.

These wish lists and hopes drive me nuts. The ideas that come from them (although some are good) are redundant. RDM is as good at melee as it was designed to be. So you can't hit 1000+ weapon skills, or over 100 damage attacks. Well the DD's that do that can't cure for 400 HP or haste each other.

It is a natural trade off that comes with the job. A RDM can't hit 900+ teir 3's like a BLM but a BLM can't refresh or protect someone. A RDM can't throw down a Cure for 700 HP like a WHM but a WHM can't convert or nuke. In every aspect of RDM we trade something off that another job can do. However we also have one more thing in our bag of tricks that job can't do.

In all probability RDM is the most balanced job in this game. Good at many and masters of little. It holds true in every thing a RDM does in the game. It is why we need subjobs, If we were meant to be a WHM SE would have given us na and ra. If we were meant to be a BLM we would have -ga and teir 4. If we were meant to b a melee we would have Stat boosts for it.

Until both camps understand the core principles of RDM this debate and wishing will go on forever. RDM is a support job, not a main healer, no a nuker and not a melee. It is not specialized to do specific tasks (save enfeeble). It is a Job that has the ability to function in any situation you put it in. When you main heal you do not lose access to nukes. When you nuke you do not lose access to cures. When you melee you retain the ability to do both of those things.

Many arguements are made that a RDM should wear as much gear to support it in the backline. Which is why you see many complain about inventory space. Again RDM is not meant to be a specialized job it will always be beaten by something else in anything it does (again save enfeebling). Many people look at RDM as an everymage. Well some of us look at it as a Hybrid, meaning it can melee, and cast spells. Just look at our JSE and AF gears, they support both sides of the coin. If RDM was made to be a dedicated healer why did I get a Fencing Degen as my AF weapon. If I was to be solely a mage why do I have B in weapons and many other meleeable options at various levels.

In short RDM is a takeit how you want it job. Some people like BBQ are afraid of losing their RDM from meripos (meaning they may have to do some work on BRD and COR) Others like kitty just want to exploit its fast invites for merit points. Others like me want to work at helping people realize the truth of RDM melee, its pros and cons and how to do it smart. (of course we always get thrased around by the anti camp)

To the to camps.

Pro Melee

RDM dosent need fixng it is fine as is. What is needed is ambition and smarts to play this way. An understanding of limitations and boundries. The other camp is afraid of losing their RDM's, this should not be the case. You can still main heal a party as a melee. Don't let people cathc you up in the staff and gear canundrum because hey both do not hold any water.

Anti Melee

You are content on your ways as a RDM. You enjoy your healing role and that is fine. None of us are trying to tell you, you fail. The only people that fail are the ones who can't refresh/haste/dispel/enfeeble/cure/nuke properly. Their is a time and place for everything, and the fact is, preforming "Backline" duties can be easily done on the frontline especially considering the recet updates.

I'll be honest. OP was tl;dr

*Cry!*

/huge wall 'o text warning. You may skip to summary if you want.

Alright, RDM's got niche roles in parties already. Once his melee effectiveness starts dropping in the 30's, he moves to full time enfeebler, and support caster. Eventually he transitions into a no-rest main healer. What we want to see is RDM have the role of light melee and support caster/enfeebler. To do this someone else needs to be transitioned into main-healer. The ideal job for this is WHM, though SCH and perhaps SMN can also fit. The problem to overcome is mp longevity. SE has provided a mini convert and status fixes for /SCH, however usually /WHM is still desired by main healers for curagas and DS. We've still got SCH and WHM and SMN then as potential backline replacements, we just have to help them with their mp recovery issues. The second problem is to address the RDM's melee potential which is limited by gear selection, weak weapons, weak weaponskills, weak combat skills, and the time it takes him to cast spells on party members. RDM also has some trouble stretching his mp when meleeing in many level ranges. And lastly he loses magic accuracy compared to elemental staves in levels 51-75.


We can address another problem in the game here while we try to help RDM to frontline. Many jobs that use mp are not desirable in parties because of their mp dependence. BLU is not a top pick DD generally because of its need for mp refreshment to maintain top damage output. DRK rarely casts anything but drain/aspir/absorb-tp/stun, even though SE has tried to get it to cast more by lowering absorb cast times and adding new spells. WHM, SMN, and SCH are not as desirable as RDMs for main-healing as mentioned above, convert/refresh trump their mp recovery. BLMs lose party positions in the 50's partly because of mob magic resistances/reflection and also because they can't keep up in damage output due to rest time as party kill speed accelerates.

So....
Put a level 40-50s item that certain jobs can use that gives autorefresh, that's not difficult to get. Ammo slot or maybe earring or ring. Alternately, more mp jobs should have autorefresh trait at some point in their career, since SMN already have it, give them a second. Should be for WHM, SCH, BLM, and SMN. I don't see a problem giving it to BLU and DRK as well. I'd suggest RDM could have it, but it'd make us even better mp batteries and boost up our magey capabilities.

reason: mp jobs need more mp recovery in general. We want to help potential backline replacements for RDM have better longevity. +20mp/minute is not huge but helps.

Ok that's a good start at making viable replacements for backline RDMs so we can move up front. We've given an extra 1mp/tick to pretty much everyone who deserves it. But we can maybe still boost our replacements a liitle. After all we still have the burden of hasting and refreshing those who need those spells the most. Hastera for WHM seems like a good addition. Ideally it's more mp efficient than casting 4 Hastes, just like Curagas cure much more hp for less mp than single cures. It takes some casting load off a frontline RDM too, letting him swing more and demanding less of his mp. I'd suggest single target haste for SCH, but um.. SCH already seems to be a very powerful and flexible mage.



Make Fast Cast faster. Recast times can stay as they are though.

reason: RDM needs more swing time for better DOT. He's still casting at least 2 refreshes, enspell, some enfeebles, and some cures, and probably protective spells like stoneskin. Good hybrids have low cast times on what they cast a lot of. DNCs JA's are fairly short and don't seem interrupt swinging. BLU physical spells are very fast as well. But boosting Fast Cast is not really RDM specific after all is it? Other jobs can have Fast Cast trait from gear and by subbing RDM.

So either Fast Cast itself allows for swinging during casting without interruption or its let's say 1.5x as fast as it is now, but recast reductions would stay the same. I suppose that'd make Loquacious Earring and other weak fast cast items a lot less laughable either way. I don't know how difficult this would be on the programming side, the making fast cast bypass the casting-induced melee delay (what is commonly being called Battle Cast in many ffxi forums). Maybe it isn't feasible. Boosting fast cast speed 1.5x would do well enough, but the cap would still be at 50% (which we presume is the cast speed cap). It'd put a RDM without AF hat or Relic body up around the same speed as a RDM wearing one of them.... an overall +10% to fast cast split between in trait #2 and #3.


Melee capability changes:
Make enspells stronger or introduce a 2nd tier that's not subbable, which are stronger. Boost up magic damage WS to scale higher with level and do better damage at lower TP. Boost archery a little bit. Boost Parry.

reason: Better DOT. RDM has to provide some viable damage. Since he's got to focus so much on accuracy and has weak weapon damage/attack, enspell is the best way to do this. Preferably this will not be enspell damage + items, but rather adjusting calculations on existing enspells or making a second tier of enspells that are calculated differently. It doesn't need to be a large boost. A max of around 30 with ~280ish enhancing skill would be fine.... about a 50% increase in other words.

Since enspells don's add to WS damage, we need to take a serious look at RDM available WS. All crap from Sword until Vorpal Blade, which requires a specific subjob. And even then RDM lacks accuracy and attack which are what that WS needs to do good damage. Sidewinder, needs a specific subjob and RDM's skill is too low to make it effective in xp. Raise archery to C+, that'd also help RDM be able to stick Demon arrows. Cyclone's not bad, though an AOE WS can be a liability in attracting adds. Evisceration's pretty good, and not obtained until like level 73. I suggest boosting the 3 magical sword WS's so their damage scales up to around 400ish at 100 TP by level 75, and extra TP increases them to at most 600ish. I don't see any harm in putting RDM archery up to where SAM's is (C+). It still forces specific subjob selection, and RDM have fairly weak bow options. But with 230 skill instead of 210 its at least an alternative. Parry's a stylistic change. Most of the small melee weapon jobs have good Parry skill since dagger and sword fighting styles involve a lot of parrying. B skill would be sufficient for a Fencer.



Make a RDM-only item with a latent effect of enhances Refresh and either Haste or Dia. The latent trigger is "when engaged". The enhanced effect can be one of the following:

refresh/haste are AOE and cost 120mp instead of 40mp
refresh/haste duration is doubled
refresh gains +1 tick, haste gains +5%, alternately refresh gains +1/tick and Dia gains 1/tick and +5% defense down

This should probably be an accessory slot for the convenience of not causing an equipment blink. It should be easy to obtain. If this is problematic because of engaging from the backline, I'm sure some other way to implement it as a JT or JA only usable during melee could be made as a workaround.


reasoning: AOE or duration improvement for these spells help the RDM have more swing time and thus better DOT, also reduce the load on his mp pool, which is smaller from eating sushi and using melee gear/subjob to frontline. Whereas boosted potency helps the RDM have more mp to work with over time and gives a carrot to the players who are generally opposed to RDM frontlining. Suddenly the RDM's main support buffs are stronger when he melees, and his backline replacements get some much needed additional mp recovery. In case you missed the bold and italics, the item would only provide one of these 3 suggested effects, I don't care which one. Any one of them would work to make frontlining easier on the RDM. Boosting potency of these buffs when meleeing seems the clear winner to me. It simultaneously helps our backline replacement's mp issues and gives a little more buff to our frontline companions.


What holds RDM back is community perceptions and strategies. RDM's damage is too low for frontlining. He's too busy casting and his mp pool is too stretched. Additionally, his mp recovery is king compared to other mages, forcing him into a backline niche since only RDM can go non-stop. If RDM can provide something extra by being in the frontline, if other backline healing jobs get a little boost to mp recovery, and if we find small ways to give RDM more swingtime and better damage, then RDM can change roles from backline support-caster & main-healer, to frontline support caster & light DD.


I guess I left out the last consideration, which was RDM's magic accuracy with a real weapon vs a staff from 51-75. Is that such a bad tradeoff for the capability to fit in a frontline role? Most enfeebles are cheap to cast after all. Other backliners and even NINs can also cast these same enfeebles. SMN, BLU, WHM, BRD, BLM are all capable of crowd control as well which is the real critical thing. Dia and Dispel pretty much always land even if you're naked.

I suppose SE could put in some hybrid armor sets in lower levels which are sort of like our current JSE. MP, accuracy, magic accruacy. At 72, Wise is pretty crappy melee gear and pretty crappy casting gear. Something like it the 40's it would be pretty nice though.


Does RDM's magey capability change because of any of this?

Depends on how fast cast is handled. RDM has 20% from traits, and 10% each from both AF and relic. If we boost small fast cast items but not AF/relic, and if we boost traits to say 30% total, then we pretty much keep RDM close its current cast speed range...(43% max current) say 30% no items, 40% with AF hat, 50% with relic body, and loquacious bumps up to 5%, but the total cap is still 50%. Then there's still a point to getting relic at least.

If battle cast can be implemented instead of increasing fast cast, then no, RDM's backline functionality doesn't change at all. WHM having hastera doesn't improve RDM backline magery. Other mp jobs getting an extra tick of autofrefresh doesn't change RDM backline magery. Changes to magic sword WS calculations, archery skill rank, parry skill rank, adding hybrid gear sets, and boosting enspell damage don't boost RDM backline magery. +33% potency boost or double duration or AOE refresh/haste that works only when the RDM is meleeing will not boost his backline magery. RDM melee soloing would be slightly enhanced, but RDM's don't melee solo really hard stuff. We either sleep/nuke or bind/dot/kite.




Summary

1) Give WHM hastera
2) Give all mp jobs except PLD and RDM autorefresh or a new fulltime autorefresh item, SMN gets level 2 since it has one already.
3) enspell damage boost ~50% either by change to existing spells (subbable for SCH AOE) or by second tier enspells (not subbable)
4) Battle Cast, which is melee not interrupted by spell casting or boost Fast Cast cast speed slightly(+5% to trait #2 and #3), but leave recast reduction where it is.
5) Archery to C+. Meh, just for Sidewinder to toy with /RNG. But also enables RDM to stick a demon arrow's defense down in xp.
6) Parry to B. Stylistic change mostly.
7) Boost Burning Blade, Red Lotus Blade, and Shining Blade damage. Mostly this change should be how they scale as we level so that they're fairly effective. 50-100 damage when we get them is fine, and scale it to ~400 by level 75. Additional TP boosts damage and accuracy, but not a whole lot more... max damage with loaded TP should be in line with Spirits Within and tier III nukes, around 600ish. These are still resistible like nukes BTW.
8) A boost to refresh and haste that is only available when a RDM is meleeing. This can be an item latent or job trait or job ability I suppose. The boosted effects I thought of first were (one only) +33% potency for Haste/Refresh, or it can be +5% dia defense down and +1/tick refresh, or it can be +100% duration Haste/Refresh, or it can be that refresh/haste can be AOE'd at triple mp cost. Ideally the point is to provide a benefit when the RDM is meleeing, preferably not just to the RDM's swing time and mp pool, but a tangible benefit to the party members as well.
9) Some hybrid gears in mid levels... similar to Wise gear. Acc, haste, enspell damage, mp, and magic accuracy are really where the focus should be.

I tried to make a strong change and a more moderate change alternative for most of these suggestions. I tired to provide improvements which would not make a RDM a better mage or soloist. I tried to boost some other jobs so that they could better fit the backline healer role RDM is in now, allowing RDM up front. Tried to provide suggestions that increased RDM's swing time and damage potential slightly, but left it with most of the limitations it currently has as a damage dealer. I tried to come up with an incentive for parties to want the RDM on the frontline.

Summary

1) Give WHM hastera
I presume you mean Hastega. Yay for stepping on SMN's toes.


2) Give all mp jobs except PLD and RDM autorefresh or a new fulltime autorefresh item, SMN gets level 2 since it has one already.
WHMs already do DD x5 + WHM x1merit parties as is. All this change would do is make it even easier to set up DDx5 + WHMx1--no one would would switch to DD x4 + RDM x1 + WHM x1 because of it. (They'd gladly switch out a DD for a BRD, of course.)


3) enspell damage boost ~50% either by change to existing spells (subbable for SCH AOE) or by second tier enspells (not subbable)
Would affect soloing a tad too much in S-E's view, I think.

4) Battle Cast, which is melee not interrupted by spell casting or boost Fast Cast cast speed slightly(+5% to trait #2 and #3), but leave recast reduction where it is.
Again, problematic in soloing scenarios.

5) Archery to C+. Meh, just for Sidewinder to toy with /RNG. But also enables RDM to stick a demon arrow's defense down in xp.
Soloing... ._.


6) Parry to B. Stylistic change mostly.
Don't think anyone cares about parrying, except maybe S-E.

7) Boost Burning Blade, Red Lotus Blade, and Shining Blade damage. Mostly this change should be how they scale as we level so that they're fairly effective. 50-100 damage when we get them is fine, and scale it to ~400 by level 75. Additional TP boosts damage and accuracy, but not a whole lot more... max damage with loaded TP should be in line with Spirits Within and tier III nukes, around 600ish. These are still resistible like nukes BTW.
We get Red Lotus Blade? Not natively, I think.


8) A boost to refresh and haste that is only available when a RDM is meleeing. This can be an item latent or job trait or job ability I suppose. The boosted effects I thought of first were (one only) +33% potency for Haste/Refresh, or it can be +5% dia defense down and +1/tick refresh, or it can be +100% duration Haste/Refresh, or it can be that refresh/haste can be AOE'd at triple mp cost. Ideally the point is to provide a benefit when the RDM is meleeing, preferably not just to the RDM's swing time and mp pool, but a tangible benefit to the party members as well.
You wrote "when engaged" or something like that earlier, right? I can engage from the back line just fine. "You, RDM. Engage from the back, but stay out of melee song range, OK?"

9) Some hybrid gears in mid levels... similar to Wise gear. Acc, haste, enspell damage, mp, and magic accuracy are really where the focus should be.
I don't see any problem with this; since I have no room for more gears, I don't have to worry about them! Except Magic Accuracy. Someday, I'd like to land Silence on Suzaku. Even just once, so I can screenshot it...


I tried to come up with an incentive for parties to want the RDM on the frontline.
They'll want RDM up front when RDM does damage on par with WAR/NIN. "Forget casting, dude. Just hit the darn birds. Let WHM or SCH do the cures."

5) Archery to C+. Meh, just for Sidewinder to toy with /RNG. But also enables RDM to stick a demon arrow's defense down in xp

Why should RDM Archery on par with SAM? Additionally, this steps on COR's toes, which has B+ Marksmanship. Finally, RDM has something that does Defense Down, its called Dia. You could also sub /DNC for Box Step for DEF down effect or even sub Blue for Wild Oats, which is VIT down.

So yeah, lots of ways to do this already.

Interesting article, but its applicability to FFXI is questionable; we've had a tank-DD for a long time now, that routinely displaces specialists in *both* its roles. At the same time. (Their example of excess DDs pushing hybrids into their non-DD role is not, of course, pulled out of their hat; every MMO that has ever existed has had excess DDs. This says as much about the players as it does about the game design, I think. And what is the present thread if not the desire for one *more* job to hit things in addition to whatever else it does?)


Anyway, to return to the topic of RDM - I don't see why a melee update is likely or even necessarily desirable. That's probably what BLU and DNC are for. But with hypothetical hat firmly on head:

Magic Extension (trait)
Whenever you hit with a physical attack, the remaining time of all buffs and debuffs you cast that are currently running is increased by 1 second. (We already know the game tracks your buffs and debuffs because it tells you when they wear off.)

A longer lasting refresh/haste is a more efficient refresh/haste - debuffs too. (Although maybe it should be restricted to debuffs on the target you hit, so you can't extend a sleep by beating up a different mob.) It'd affect melee soloing, but not as seriously as a DPS change would - and that's not the problematic kind of RDM soloing anyway.

You don't have to steal DNC's entire mechanic - the crucial part is that whatever the benefit is, it has to depend on repeatedly hitting something. Otherwise there won't be enough incentive to repeatedly hit something (i.e. get off the back line). DNC doesn't melee for damage (or not just for damage) - it melees to be able to produce other effects. That makes it worthwhile on the front line even if it doesn't match the damage output of DDs. That's what RDM needs to steal to be welcome on the front line, even if you accomplish it in a different way.


In any case, forbid RDM from using staves, but give them an equivalent Macc trait at the same level (51). And maybe some new item for +hMP. Staves are a big part of what punishes RDMs for meleeing; in order to become more effective at it we need to be able to put/keep a weapon in our hand without sacrificing spell effectiveness. (And of course any change that could potentially stack with staves wouldn't reduce their dominance.)

Come to think about it... why forbid staves when you can replace them? (At least for RDM, they work fine for some jobs already)

Warlock's Shield
Lv. 51 RDM
Def: whatever
Increases magic accuracy and effectiveness (equivalent to the right staff)

Duelist's Shield
Lv. 71 RDM Rare/Ex
Def: more than the other one
Increases magic accuracy and effectiveness (equivalent to the right HQ staff)

Can't be stacked with a staff, but you can still swap in dark staff to rest (if you expect it to be worth the TP - which since you're not otherwise losing your TP every 5 seconds is potentially a real choice). Since it's a shield, it can be used with any existing sword or dagger, so it won't make them all obsolete by accident. (It will make other rdm usable shields obsolete for most purposes, but none of them were that great anyway.) Some staves would still have limited use - e.g. the int and elem skill on ice - but aside from that a rdm who only carried warlock's shield would perform just as effectively as one who swapped NQ staves, and wouldn't lose TP.

Of course, Duelist's Shield should be quested with something that tests your RDM skill. Something that anyone can attempt, but not everyone can complete (at least, not without some skill and perseverance). Something that works out all aspects of the RDM job, endurance, crowd control, healing, debuffing... maybe a multi-stage solo bcnm that requires different tactics for the different stages (and watch out for that overall time limit). That would be pretty awesome, and worthy of an item that's all 8 HQ staves in 1 while leaving your main hand free.


Neither suggestion improves RDM DPS (well, except so far as they allow you to *do* your DPS without gimping your spells), but either or both could shift the RDM playstyle.

I presume you mean Hastega. Yay for stepping on SMN's toes.

I meant what I typed. -ga for an offensive AOE spell, -ra for an AOE buff.


WHMs already do DD x5 + WHM x1merit parties as is. All this change would do is make it even easier to set up DDx5 + WHMx1--no one would would switch to DD x4 + RDM x1 + WHM x1 because of it. (They'd gladly switch out a DD for a BRD, of course.)

WHM's still have to rest. G. Colibri can't be discussed here lol, they don't do as much damage as most other mob types. 1-2 more/tick is still not even a cure III every minute.... but it all adds up, and i admit that /SCH and SMN instant recovery of chunks of mp and other mp-conserving factors come pretty close to what these three backline jobs need to take over, and let RDM frontline.



Would affect soloing a tad too much in S-E's view, I think.


Again, problematic in soloing scenarios.


Soloing... ._.

The only impacts on soloing would be faster killing via melee or (cermonial/enspell solos), and maybe a slightly easier time with getting spells off when buffs are down, like Ichi in particular. I evaluated it and I'm proposing Fast Cast speed/recast reduction change from 2:1 ratio to 3:1 ratio. So trait 1 is 15% cast speed instead of 10%, but recast reduction is still only 5%. Triats 2 & 3 are 7.5% cast speed increase and their recast reductions are still 2.5% each. AF/relic go from 10%/5% to 15%/10%. RDM becomes able to hit 45% cast speed reduction with either relic or af. he can hit the cap with both AF and relic or with one of them and loquacious. That may devalue the relic body somewhat, but most RDM don't have it or do and barely use it; and it still reduces recast even when cast speed is capped. By contrast RDM have 20%/10% natively, and typically roll with 30%/15% with their hat. This would put them at 30%/10% natively and 45%/15% with their hat. Keep in mind that fast cast items are at best a swap in and swap out for self-target spells only, when meleeing. They don't have good melee stats, nor enough value to wear full time when trying to deal damage.

The small speed benefit from faster casting and slightly stronger enspells is not going to boost soloing so much that RDM ditches parties all together. RDM soloing requires huge amounts of casting the same buffs and debuffs over and over.



Don't think anyone cares about parrying, except maybe S-E.

Agreed. Tanks like it capped of course.


We get Red Lotus Blade? Not natively, I think.

Not natively. But there're some times a frontline RDM would pick a sub that has it, and in level ranges where Vorpal Blade is still not an option. There's also those situations with very evasive mobs, where consistency of a good magical damage WS would be preferred over a wildly varying Vorpal Blade.



You wrote "when engaged" or something like that earlier, right? I can engage from the back line just fine. "You, RDM. Engage from the back, but stay out of melee song range, OK?"

Yeah, if you've ever tried it you'd know how much of a pain in the @$$ it is for a mage to do. Otherwise we'd do it for the benefit of our Shields and Parry's for strays mobs hits. Logistical implementation into SE's code for the game is not what I'm going for here. The idea is that it can only happen when a RDM is actively meleeing. I used "when engaged" because it already exists as a latent trigger in the game. The important thing is to realize that there should be small benefits to the backline mages, the RDM, and the frontline melees only because the RDM is meleeing on the frontline.


I don't see any problem with this; since I have no room for more gears, I don't have to worry about them! Except Magic Accuracy. Someday, I'd like to land Silence on Suzaku. Even just once, so I can screenshot it...

We always like new gear. Every job does, especially the ones SE neglects to change. Inventory constraints are still a serious issue for RDMs, mostly because it can gear itself for everything if it can just carry it all. I have silenced Suzaku. I don't do a lot of sky, so I didn't realize I should have taken a pic.



They'll want RDM up front when RDM does damage on par with WAR/NIN. "Forget casting, dude. Just hit the darn birds. Let WHM or SCH do the cures."

RDM damage is great on Colibri. A 50% stronger enspell should add about 7% damage to the RDM's total (DD RDM parse around 12-15% of their damage from enspell). If the backline WHM or SMN handles all the hasting the RDM is doing only 2-3 refreshes (hopefully) and enspell every 3 minutes, dia on every pull. An extra 5% defense down on dia II or III should nicely contribute to party damage via the other 3 DDs, and the RDM/NIN should be able to pull his weight in damage acting as a 4th, while still having all his usual spells for occasions they're needed. Some might not be very accurate and his cures might be a little less potent, but 95% of the time his offensive spells shouldn't be needed, and the healer in back should be solid on mp.

WHM's still have to rest. G. Colibri can't be discussed here lol, they don't do as much damage as most other mob types. 1-2 more/tick is still not even a cure III every minute.... but it all adds up, and i admit that /SCH and SMN instant recovery of chunks of mp and other mp-conserving factors come pretty close to what these three backline jobs need to take over, and let RDM frontline.
Actually, I had this discussion in my social LS last weekend; most people thought it was perfectly fine to do single WHM party (sans RDM) for Mamool Ja as well as Greater Colibri. In fact, every WHM said it's doable or have already done it. ._.

As for soloing, S-E probably already thinks RDM is too strong. That's why any proposed change which can improve it further would be heavily scrutinized.


RDM damage is great on Colibri. A 50% stronger enspell should add about 7% damage to the RDM's total (DD RDM parse around 12-15% of their damage from enspell). If the backline WHM or SMN handles all th