/SCH succeeding where /WHM fails COR?

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

I'll be frank, I hate subbing /WHM on COR.

Not just hate it, but a Kefka sort of hate, hate, hate, hate, HATE /WHM!

The kicker is, most other jobs, I don't have a problem with /WHM at all! It is usually good, but in the case of COR, even other mage subs are usually better.

Its not that /WHM isn't useful, but rather, it just COR brings a lot of conflicts to its use. Phantom Roll in particular, along with /WHMing in melee PTs at endgame. The way buff rotations are forced for COR, its hard to enjoy using /WHM in anything but a mage PT where you can constantly replenish MP on a two-buff cycle and never have to lose a beat on cures or status cures.

Then there's gearing it for /mage use. Ugh. Most people just don't do it right. That's all I'm going to say. Balanced AGI/MP builds if you /WHM, use Quick Draw or quit COR, kthx.

Ahem.

Anyway, it seems SCH might address some of the issues I've had with subbing /WHM. /DNC has addressed the majority of issues I've had with curative subjobs, as /DNC doesn't really take much away from COR save for a few extra weaponskill opportunities, but not entirely. /SCH has some drawbacks, but it also has a ton of upsides to make up for it.

B Skill Dark Magic for Aspir
B Skill Enfeebling for Sleep from Addendum: Black
Status cures from Addendum: White, sans Erase, Viruna and Stona
Alacrity
Penury
Raise
Dispel
Regen II
SublimationSublimation and Aspir (by situation) would fill the gap presented by Phantom Roll rotations and you'd make up some MP for the times you had one or two minutes of downtime from Evokers Roll.

While a lack of Stoneskin, Blink, Reraise and Erase hurts a little, not having Viruna and Stona weren't dealbreakers to start with, you could never get Stona from any other subjob anyway. Reraise can be replaced by items, as can Blink and Stoneskin.

Two dark-based dispels from Main and Sub, light-based sleep from main and then B Skill Enfeebling for an extra sleep from /SCH sub. Regen II is awesome HP recovery.

Alacrity would let you recast those Sleeps, Aspirs, Dispel and Drains faster. Penury would keep those Cure IIIs a bit cheaper.

So it would appear the pros outweigh the cons, the best of which is not having MP downtime from Evoker's Roll being phased out or even the occasional Bust, then being able to use Penury to save more MP.

Anyway, I think this is next on my COR to-do list, especially while I'm still in the midst of my excitement for SCH as a main, Sadly, this is another subjob x2 deal for me. Foobar is 64 SCH, Kitten's SCH is level 1.

For most instanced situations, I've found /DNC to be successful where WHM typically falls short. /DNC's weakness is HNMs and gods, which pretty much goes without saying. This is where the /mage issue is forced on COR the most and I'm hoping that /SCH patches up the unsightly little problems WHM presents.

/SCH definately wouldn't be an EXP sub not even next to (ugh) /WHM, but for situations where MAB subs aren't needed, I think /SCH is going to offer a lot of fixes to the problems COR makes for /WHM and /WHM makes for COR.

[IfritnoItazura]

COR/SCH looks OK, but I'm not too sure about landing enfeebs like Sleep on anything worthwhile without gearing for it, including the TP losing staff switching. If you're not using TP, of course, weapon swap won't matter, but how good is COR's enfeebling gear selection?

As long as you don't need Curaga, bar- spells, or MDB (ha ha?), or Stoneskin, you should be fine. (Though, the Stoneskin part is pretty iffy... I've lost count of how many times SS saved my butt from Kirin's stray Heat Breath while chasing our PLD/NIN to reapply Refresh.)

* * *

A friend who used COR/WHM as default basically leveled cooking to make juice, brought ingredients to exp parties, Yagudo Drinks to events, and splurged on sushi while bugging LS crafters for cheap ammo.

He was easy going and selfless, and managed to make his COR work for any event he was in. I'm not entirely sure if my fondness for COR/WHM is from how good the combo is, or from how much we enjoyed our COR/WHM's company. (I miss having him around. T_T )

* * *

As a RDM, if I have a COR/WHM in party, and he's using MP, I'd give him Refresh. :biggrin: No need to go down to "two-buff" cycle.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

COR/SCH looks OK, but I'm not too sure about landing enfeebs like Sleep on anything worthwhile without gearing for it, including the TP losing staff switching. If you're not using TP, of course, weapon swap won't matter, but how good is COR's enfeebling gear selection?

As long as you don't need Curaga, bar- spells, or MDB (ha ha?), or Stoneskin, you should be fine. (Though, the Stoneskin part is pretty iffy... I've lost count of how many times SS saved my butt from Kirin's stray Heat Breath while chasing our PLD/NIN to reapply Refresh.)

You're talking to a guy that will kill himself if he uses the wrong food. So long as I have RR item, I'm willing to take any risk. My EXP is easy to get back and I LOL at any BRD, COR or RDM that gets close to delevel. I just can't fathom worrying about my own hide too much.

The goal is self-sufficiency in melee buff-dependant PTs, that's really my only intention for the sub. Since Light Arts and Dark Arts function the same way as they do on SCH main, all I really need to do is grab or borrow +skill gear from my other character for days I go /SCH. Or just buy extra.


A friend who used COR/WHM as default basically leveled cooking to make juice, brought ingredients to exp parties, Yagudo Drinks to events, and splurged on sushi while bugging LS crafters for cheap ammo.

He was easy going and selfless, and managed to make his COR work for any event he was in. I'm not entirely sure if my fondness for COR/WHM is from how good the combo is, or from how much we enjoyed our COR/WHM's company. (I miss having him around. T_T )


Had I not decided to make Foobar the primary crafter of my two characters, I might have bothered with it on Kitten. The most Kitten will level do is level Bonecraft high enough to make Demon Arrowheads, probably. Foobar is the cook. /shrug, hard to go back on that decision. I suppose I could pack some yags from a crafting spree, but otherwise probably not.

As a RDM, if I have a COR/WHM in party, and he's using MP, I'd give him Refresh. :biggrin: No need to go down to "two-buff" cycle.

If only you knew how rare that is that a RDM does that. Had a RDM in Limbus that actually hasted my COR/DNC, my heart jumped, it did. It doesn't happen often.

[IfritnoItazura]

Oh, Stoneskin isn't about saving experience points--it's about being effective.

I'm useless to the party/alliance if I'm eating dirt. Effectiveness when weakened is pretty poor, too. (Refreshing the tank party when weakened is an impossible order, and acting crowd control in that state typically just gets me killed soon again--doubly weakened. x_x; )

K.O. is to be avoided unless my going down buys something important for the party/alliance. (In that case, RR up, and charge!)

[Kylen]

I dunno about you, but I get a ton of use out of Stoneskin, Blink, Erase, and Curaga(II) when I sub /WHM usually. While an extra source of Sleep and Dispel in addition to Quick Draw would no doubt be nice to have, I'd really be feeling the lack of those 4 spells (and to a much lesser extent Stona and Viruna) if I subbed /SCH. Reraise is nice to have as well if shit hits the fan; I know you can just use a RR item if you're doing an activity where you anticipate dying, but sometimes deaths and wipes come at the most unexpected times, and that's when having the spell on really helps.

Most of the time I have plenty of Refresh from Evoker's Roll too, either from being in an all-mage party or a mix of mages and melee like in Salvage or Nyzul (in addition to Sanction refresh and Balrahn's Ring if I'm in Nyzul/Salvage). In the case where I'm in an all-melee party, it's really not hard for me to run away from everyone and put Evoker's Roll just on just myself if I'm really running low on mp, either.

[Callisto]

I dunno about you, but I get a ton of use out of Stoneskin, Blink, Erase, and Curaga(II) when I sub /WHM usually. While an extra source of Sleep and Dispel in addition to Quick Draw would no doubt be nice to have, I'd really be feeling the lack of those 4 spells (and to a much lesser extent Stona and Viruna) if I subbed /SCH. Reraise is nice to have as well if shit hits the fan; I know you can just use a RR item if you're doing an activity where you anticipate dying, but sometimes deaths and wipes come at the most unexpected times, and that's when having the spell on really helps.

I do have to agree there, while not needing to use a QD charge on Dark Shot would be nice, not having Erase and to a greater extend Stoneskin would leave a gaping whole to me as /mage, I already feel the hit from no SS badly at times when I /DNC. Although I've typically been only using /RDM when I /mage for the QD boost, any fight where I'd be /mage typically hits at least one point where SS/Blink save my life, just last week I got petrified then that Blink eat a Quake II from JoFaith.

[nanatsu]

I dunno about you, but I get a ton of use out of Stoneskin, Blink, Erase, and Curaga(II) when I sub /WHM usually. While an extra source of Sleep and Dispel in addition to Quick Draw would no doubt be nice to have, I'd really be feeling the lack of those 4 spells (and to a much lesser extent Stona and Viruna) if I subbed /SCH.

You can't sub Stona anyway. It's lvl 39.

[Saren]

Depends what you are fighting and who else is in your group really, like everything. I can see it being great in certain situations but I wouldn't say it was going to be generally more useful than /whm.

Like Itazura said, Stoneskin is about avoiding being dead or weak becuase you are less useful weak not because anyone is worried about exp loss. Cor probably doesn't have quite the problem most jobs do from being weak becuase you aren't relying on hp or mp for your abilities but you are still probably going to have to be in AoE range to buff which is going to be very dangerous weakened when you have no stoneskin. Stoneskin also helps a lot with keeping Sublimation on for the maximum possible charge especially if you have to run into AoE range to buff.

Having no erase is a big loss. Speaking as a whm if you are going to sub mage to help out with status cures and we might need erase I would prefer a cor went /whm over /sch. Mostly this is because erase tends to be my most used status cure and it's one of the few with a fairly long recast time (cursna being the other which you also don't get access to /sch). I can paralyna a whole party even without divine seal pretty fast, doing the same with erase is going to be very slow (damn divine seal recast time). Not that you would need to erase a whole party often but even 3-4 takes a long time. People who are /whm and use their erase have my eternal gratitude.

The other thing about scholar too is if you are using it to dispel and to status cure, you are probably going to be using all your charges on addendum for spell access and in practice it's not terribly fast. My CoP static had a scholar and he was great but response time can be a problem if it involves switching arts/addendum. It was usually much more efficient to have him buff everyone at the start then switch to Dark arts and DD/dispel unless things got really bad and have someone else act as main back up healer.

[Callisto]

Cor probably doesn't have quite the problem most jobs do from being weak becuase you aren't relying on hp or mp for your abilities but you are still probably going to have to be in AoE range to buff which is going to be very dangerous weakened when you have no stoneskin.

One thing that should be noted which I learned the hard way, if you do die again while weakened, Quick Draw does get hit with the 'double-weakness' magic damage nerf, so you're stuck with 0 damage QDs for 5 minutes, which pretty much sucks ass.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Reraise items are vastly more efficient in pinch situations. Saves you the time of casting RR and the MP cost of using it.

[Kylen]

Reraise items are vastly more efficient in pinch situations. Saves you the time of casting RR and the MP cost of using it.
Only if you're wearing the RR item full-time (at the expense of another piece of useful gear); otherwise you have to wait for the /equip delay before using it and that may not be enough time before you die in a full-wipe situation.

Anyway, I'm talking about situations where you'd be putting RR up beforehand as a precaution. With /WHM, there's really no reason not to have RR up at all times before you start any event, regardless of how easy the event is and how unlikely you think dying may be. With RR items, you'd only likely use a charge if you were about to do something where you knew dying was fairly likely, unless you like spending lots of gil.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Humor me, if you're /WHM, what more "useful" piece of gear is there than RR hairpin (gives MP) and reraise earring for thier respective slots? A lot of emphasis drop off from Quick Draw under /WHM, but you only need AGI to land it, so there's really no need for MAB gear.

If I have RR up before and event with /WHM, you can have it up with an item, too. I don't fret over spending gil, but then, I'm not a level 22 bullet COR.

[Kylen]

Humor me, if you're /WHM, what more "useful" piece of gear is there than RR hairpin (gives MP) and reraise earring for thier respective slots?
Sure, that's not too hard.

Head: W.Turban (melee, more mp + Haste), AF Hat (Slug Shot, /ra, Quick Draw)
Ear: Fenrir's/Triumph Earring (Slug Shot), Suppa/Brutal (melee), Drone/Moldy/Novio (Quick Draw)

A lot of emphasis drop off from Quick Draw under /WHM, but you only need AGI to land it, so there's really no need for MAB gear.
This statement makes no sense whatsoever. Why would you not care about maximizing Quick Draw damage as /WHM? Have you ever fight Ouryu or a Chariot boss as COR? /WHM shines for those, and Quick Draw deals nice damage to those bosses as well.

You seem to be trying to pigeonhole /WHM as a backup-curing only subjob where you must wear all +mp gear and completely forget about dealing any sort of damage via melee, Slug Shot/Detonator, or Quick Draw. If you really think /WHM can only work like this, you're severely shortchanging yourself and missing out on a lot of COR's potential.

If I have RR up before and event with /WHM, you can have it up with an item, too. I don't fret over spending gil, but then, I'm not a level 22 bullet COR.
I know that it's possible to use a RR item before every single thing you do as COR, but do you really do that? You seem to be missing the point of my previous post.

Honestly, it seems like you're arguing this just for the sake of being stubborn, dude.

[Callisto]

This statement makes no sense whatsoever. Why would you not care about maximizing Quick Draw damage as /WHM? Have you ever fight Ouryu or a Chariot boss as COR? /WHM shines for those, and Quick Draw deals nice damage to those bosses as well.

I really need to agree there...there's absolutely no reason you should just forget about maximizing QD's damage, especially /mage, when that becomes an even larger chunk of damage relative to your WS output. Without any attack buffs I'm typically hitting 250~ Slugs and 300-400+ QDs as /mage on larger endgame mobs as /RDM, I'm not giving that up for anything, especially considering that you're going to have 2-6/tick refresh in many cases there's no reason to swap out of MP pieces into QD pieces, especially with a Blue Cotehardie and Uggly Pendant in your QD set, you won't even be killing that much MP to change into a full-on QD set.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Sure, that's not too hard.

Head: W.Turban (melee, more mp + Haste), AF Hat (Slug Shot, /ra, Quick Draw)
Ear: Fenrir's/Triumph Earring (Slug Shot), Suppa/Brutal (melee), Drone/Moldy/Novio (Quick Draw)

Have we already forgotten what the discussion is here?

/WHM vs. /SCH. We're not even talking about melee, so by default, melee gear isn't up for discussion as being better than a RR item. If we're /mage, we're probably not meleeing much. If you are, something's wrong and I can't fault your allies for it, only you for not recognizing the situation. QD is the only DD at that point.

And, right, Novio - because every linkshell is going to put COR at the top of the list for one. :rolleyes:


This statement makes no sense whatsoever. Why would you not care about maximizing Quick Draw damage as /WHM? Have you ever fight Ouryu or a Chariot boss as COR? /WHM shines for those, and Quick Draw deals nice damage to those bosses as well.

Really, go back and read the whole OP, you might actually get a better idea of what it is I'm saying. Everything I've read in your replies shows me you're not really reading my posts at all.

What is COR/WHM going to do for uncapped Ouryu and Salvage bosses that SCH main, WHM main and anyone else /WHM can't do already do better without and without conflict? You can't tell me you're actually meleeing these things and staying fine on MP - if you are, then you're bullshitting.

You seem to be trying to pigeonhole /WHM as a backup-curing only subjob where you must wear all +mp gear and completely forget about dealing any sort of damage via melee, Slug Shot/Detonator, or Quick Draw. If you really think /WHM can only work like this, you're severely shortchanging yourself and missing out on a lot of COR's potential.

Kindly stop putting words in my mouth.

Clearly, you've not read many of my posts here. I don't look to /WHM as a curebot - I never have. Quite the opposite. I just don't see what is so awesome about /WHM that's better than /SCH - I have two characters with /WHM and one that's SCH main. All I see on your "con" list are luxuries that can be replaced by items and duties that are already covered better by other jobs.

I'll take self-suffiency in a heartbeat. Items didn't stop being useful once you beat Maat and finished CoPs. If you want to see items as Inventory +1, I can't help you there, I level jobs by compatibility, so my inventory doesn't max out much.

And you can't seriously tell me you use melee gear as /WHM outside of farming. If there is a situation where I can melee/WS as a COR and still be full support - /DNC is vastly better for the cure/status cure/melee outlet. Best of all, I don't have to waste slots for MP. /WHM's ship has sailed if I can play full support with a melee subjob, /WHMs only use after that is for situations it is preferred that I don't melee. If I can't TP, /DNC is useless. By the same token, if I'm in a situation where I can't get MP back fast enough, so is /WHM.

As for Quick Draw, if it becomes a high priority, we're not talking about melee subs, WHM or SCH - we start talking about RDM, BLU and BLM. And what's the typical rationale I've heard from you regarding the use of these when I read your posts elsewhere?

"I usually use /RDM or /BLM because my LS has enough WHMs and /WHMs on-hand."

I believe it was something to that effect.

So, what happened to those situations? LS member fallout? Seemed you had the luxury before to sub things not /WHM.

Now, funny that none of these subjobs have status cures or erase. BLU is the only one with a AoE Cure, RDM can cure Alliance members outside of PT and Dispel, Both have defensive options. Both have MAB. /BLM doesn't have much of anything useful, just a higher MAB, so BLM is total luxury sub.

Now if you want to downplay /SCH for a secondary Dispel, you can do so in the context of /RDM - as it has the dispel and the defensive buffs you want, along with MAB to boot. If you want to talk about getting the most out of QD accuracy, then we're talking about /BLU and look to its defensive buffs and AoE cures as the pros.

But if we're talking about it from a Cure/Status cure/Raise standpoint, if you're not often in harm's way and definately not meleeing - then there is very little difference between /WHM and /SCH save for one very signifigant one.

/SCH is more efficent about MP.

That's all I'm really saying here. If all I'm doing is status cures, cures and quick draws in a situation where my melee is not needed, I might as well get more MP back to my subjob while I'm at it.

The very fact that you assumed I just stopped using Quick Draw and AGI/MAB gear the moment I go /WHM I find somewhat insulting.

[Callisto]

I meleed as /WHM or /RDM in several situations such as Dynamis and Limbus, as well as Sea triggers/Ix'aerns before switching to /DNC for those events when I can come COR.

And even when I'm not swinging a Joyeuse for TP in favor of using staves, I am generally shooting for TP and still using Slug Shot as often as possible, so I would definitely say there's a need to still keep some of my DD gear in place, especially the WS set, which really isn't lacking on MP that badly. Everything I've done as /mage I continued to build TP and WS frequently, and while it may not put up the #'s of a SAM or w/e, the 2-300 a pop for Slug better than doing no damage when you can be doing some damage.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

A 200-300 Slug is nothing that couldn't be beaten by two consecutive Quick Draws.

[Callisto]

Actually it's beaten by one Quick Draw in most cases. Alternatively, I do both instead of just limiting myself to one form of damage.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Actually it's beaten by one Quick Draw in most cases.

I know, I was just being generous :P

If you can melee at times, then doing both WS and QDs is better than not doing anything. I've just never seen a situation as COR/WHM outside of farming that really warranted melee, but I still use QDs when I'm not meleeing. Not reason not to since the hate spike isn't that large and it doesn't TP mobs in the slightest.

In fact, I'm surprised more LSes aren't using that fact to thier advantage.

[Kylen]

Have we already forgotten what the discussion is here?

/WHM vs. /SCH. We're not even talking about melee, so by default, melee gear isn't up for discussion as being better than a RR item. If we're /mage, we're probably not meleeing much.
There you go, making that ridiculous presumption again. Maybe you don't melee much as /WHM (or /SCH), but as someone who spends the majority of their time in game doing things like Nyzul, Salvage, and Dynamis (all of which I'm usually /WHM for), I'd say I spend 90% of my time as /WHM in melee mode, with my admittedly small mp pool mainly being used for Stoneskin, Blink, quick status cures, and the occasional Curaga II. I have no accuracy issues whatsoever in any of those events using sushi and a full Haste TP build, and my Slug Shots typically range from 700-1000 in Nyzul and 500-800 in Dynamis. And yes, I spam Quick Draw on top of that for damage as well, unless I'm saving a charge for Light Shot which I often do in Nyzul.

So yes, I'm going to include melee, weaponskill, and Quick Draw gear when you ask me what's better to wear than a Reraise pin.

And, right, Novio - because every linkshell is going to put COR at the top of the list for one.
I know that, but I also know more than one COR who owns Novio Earring because they also have BLM at 75, and it never hurts to list all gear options.

Really, go back and read the whole OP, you might actually get a better idea of what it is I'm saying. Everything I've read in your replies shows me you're not really reading my posts at all.

What is COR/WHM going to do for uncapped Ouryu and Salvage bosses that SCH main, WHM main and anyone else /WHM can't do already do better without and without conflict? You can't tell me you're actually meleeing these things and staying fine on MP - if you are, then you're bullshitting.
You're clearly the one who's not reading my posts. I never said anything about meleeing Ouryu or Salvage Chariots; those are Quick Draw-only territory for COR. What conflict is there in tossing out Curaga II's to keep your BLM party alive during a Wing-spammy Ouryu, or being able to quickly Erase a tank when LBC uses Inertia Stream? It's not like COR will be doing anything else between rolls and Quick Draws in those fights.

Your "someone else should be handling that job" argument is weak at best, especially in a thread where you trumpet the merits of /SCH (gee, shouldn't a RDM always be handing Dispels, and a WHM be handling Regen II?). Anyways, to get back to the original topic of the merits of /SCH, what would /SCH offer in Ouryu or Chariot fights that is truly more useful than (divine seal) Curaga II and Erase? I've done those fights and I can tell you that mp regen certainly isn't so much of an issue that I'd give those 2 spells up for Sublimation and Light Arts/Pernury.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

There you go, making that ridiculous presumption again. Maybe you don't melee much as /WHM (or /SCH), but as someone who spends the majority of their time in game doing things like Nyzul, Salvage, and Dynamis (all of which I'm usually /WHM for), I'd say I spend 90% of my time as /WHM in melee mode, with my admittedly small mp pool mainly being used for Stoneskin, Blink, quick status cures, and the occasional Curaga II. I have no accuracy issues whatsoever in any of those events using sushi and a full Haste TP build, and my Slug Shots typically range from 700-1000 in Nyzul and 500-800 in Dynamis. And yes, I spam Quick Draw on top of that for damage as well, unless I'm saving a charge for Light Shot which I often do in Nyzul.

So yes, I'm going to include melee, weaponskill, and Quick Draw gear when you ask me what's better to wear than a Reraise pin.

I have a very difficult time believing this, especially since I have a very nice accuracy build. Slugs get missed more often with sushi as /WHM than the do when I go /DNC or /RNG and use sushi.

Your claims just don't add up, except for Dynamis and Salvage sans bosses. Anyone could hit a mob naked without sushi there - its skewed to be like that. That doesn't make /WHM more effective for those situations. Hell, Dancer's Roll does more than a fair share of the work for the first couple of floors in Salvage.

I know that, but I also know more than one COR who owns Novio Earring because they also have BLM at 75, and it never hurts to list all gear options.

It never hurts to stay realistic, either. I just saw the drop for Novio earring today, I'm far from being in line for that one and my SCH would probably get priority more than my COR would. But even that's counting my chickens too early.

You're clearly the one who's not reading my posts. I never said anything about meleeing Ouryu or Salvage Chariots; those are Quick Draw-only territory for COR. What conflict is there in tossing out Curaga II's to keep your BLM party alive during a Wing-spammy Ouryu, or being able to quickly Erase a tank when LBC uses Inertia Stream? It's not like COR will be doing anything else between rolls and Quick Draws in those fights.

Again, read my posts, the problem wouldn't be there if I was in BLM PTs. How many times do I have to say it? The problem for me is getting into all these mismatched PTs where I have to force Evoker's Roll out of rotation. There's a reason I didn't like /WHM in EXP PTs and that was the #1 reason.

Maybe its just the LS I'm with right now, but I get stuck with the RNGs a lot (probably because CORs are savvy to their needs these days, while BRDs remain utterly clueless). Pardon me if I'm just not a bit baffled when I, a gun user, am asked to come /WHM and I'm put in a Ranger PT. /DNC or /RNG would be better in this case.

Otherwise, I'd much prefer to be in the BLM PT where I can be the most effective. /WHM doesn't pose any issues there and in some cases, isn't even completely need there. Even in some BLM PT situations, I could go /RNG or /DNC instead.

So its really just about convering the downtime in these mismatched groups. Sure, it was a bit easier in PTs, but there's all these people running every which way and I have to rewrite all these macros for situations I've not really expected to be placed it. Writing a /mage set for a melee group is a tad tedious for my liking. My COR macros are very deep and very melee-oriented. Were it not for the fact that I have a good template on SCH to redraw my COR macros from right now, I'd couldn't be bothered to do it.

Maybe I can get the LS to change this in time. I'm still new there and don't want to rock the boat, but to me, /WHM doesn't make a lick of sense for the situations I've been asked to be in. If I'm gonna have to go /Mage and rotate Evoker's out, I'd like a means to get MP back more effectively. I've done many, many prolonged fights without taking a lick of damage, so not having SS doesn't really concern me.

A lot can happen in a minute and without any refresh support in these types of PTs, /WHM is tough to pull off. And you can't always count on Sanction/Sigil Refresh to be there in places like Sea. There's no refresh gear for COR and, no, I didn't get the ToA mage ring when I could get the next best thing to a Bellona's in Jalzhan's. I can't exactly go back and change my mind on it anyway.

In Salvage, I'm a pretty low priority in unlocking MP restrictions and not only that, i need the, Job ability, subjob and magic pathos lifted then I need the Max MP Down pathos lifted. If I sub DNC, I don't need magic or MP pathos lifted and those two go right to the people that need them, all I'd need are JA and SJ pathos lifted, along with weapon pathos. Gun wouldn't come til later and any LS that puts COR and BRD low on the ranged slot would be pretty foolish.

So, to me, banking on Curaga II is very risky bet, you may or may not be able to use it by the final floor boss and other member's needs must be considered along the way. Better to minimize your needs to get others unlocked with what they really need so you can move along quickly. Time is just as important as curative abilities. If you're looking to a COR for Curaga II in your hour of need, your Salvage LS is horribly undermanned.

For Ouryu, if we're going to talk about any benefit from /WHM, the top of the list would not be Curaga II, but Barstonra. That's the first edge I'd look at from /WHM over /SCH. If you have that and a BLU in PT, you could slip on Magus roll to cut out some serious damage. A BRD with Earth Carol wouldn't hurt, either.

As stated above, if you're looking for a COR - or even a BRD, for that matter - to drop a curaga II to save the day - something is wrong.

Your "someone else should be handling that job" argument is weak at best, especially in a thread where you trumpet the merits of /SCH (gee, shouldn't a RDM always be handing Dispels, and a WHM be handling Regen II?).

I've heard it come from you several times when rationalizing /BLM. What does /BLM offer over /SCH and /WHM, aside from MAB II?

[Callisto]

I know, I was just being generous :P

If you can melee at times, then doing both WS and QDs is better than not doing anything. I've just never seen a situation as COR/WHM outside of farming that really warranted melee, but I still use QDs when I'm not meleeing. Not reason not to since the hate spike isn't that large and it doesn't TP mobs in the slightest.

In fact, I'm surprised more LSes aren't using that fact to thier advantage.

In almost every fight where I'm not meleeing I go Vulcan's/Axe Grip and use Corsair Bullets to TP in between rolls/casts and swap to Steel for WS/QD, no matter what your spot is in the party there's not really a good reason to still build and use your TP in addition to your QDs. I would see slightly less out of it if I went w/ my Apollo's, but really the 18~ HP I'd be missing on a Cure III is worth sticking to full time Vulcan's.

And regarding the way your LS is using your COR, they're doing it wrong, and that's a whole other issue. Granted I get more leeway since I typically design the parties in my LS and can load myself w/ RNG/DRK/SAM, but still they need to learn to use COR in a better manner, either /mage with the mages or DD-capable with the DD.


I have a very difficult time believing this, especially since I have a very nice accuracy build. Slugs get missed more often with sushi as /WHM than the do when I go /DNC or /RNG and use sushi.


I believe he meant for TPing, I doubt he WS' in full Haste gear. I really have no problems landing Slugs on most endgame things as /mage in my WS set, and I know for a fact you have much more RAcc on your set than I do on mine, I really doubt you miss Slug often at all with Sushi, even /mage.

[Kylen]

I have a very difficult time believing this, especially since I have a very nice accuracy build. Slugs get missed more often with sushi as /WHM than the do when I go /DNC or /RNG and use sushi.

Your claims just don't add up, except for Dynamis and Salvage sans bosses. Anyone could hit a mob naked without sushi there - its skewed to be like that.
Dynamis, Nyzul, and Salvage sans bosses is the "90% of the time" I was referring to where I melee as /WHM and have perfectly good accuracy, so I guess we're in agreement on that part. As an example, I did Dynamis Beaucedine last night as /WHM, and missed a total of 4 out of 62 Slug Shots fired. That was with a full STR weaponskill build, too.

Hell, Dancer's Roll does more than a fair share of the work for the first couple of floors in Salvage.
Eh, maybe it's just me but I'd rather have 2 DD rolls like Chaos and Fighters on early Salvage floors to speed up the killing. As you mentioned, COR most likely won't get subjob unlocked on those early floors anyway, so subjob choice really isn't all that relevant until later on in Salvage. That's the reason I choose to go /WHM - not because it's the most effective sub on early floors (it's not), but because it's the most helpful on Chariot bosses.

Maybe its just the LS I'm with right now, but I get stuck with the RNGs a lot (probably because CORs are savvy to their needs these days, while BRDs remain utterly clueless). Pardon me if I'm just not a bit baffled when I, a gun user, am asked to come /WHM and I'm put in a Ranger PT. /DNC or /RNG would be better in this case.
Heh, I get that a lot too, as do most COR's I'm sure. My Dynamis LS leader got pissed the couple times I came /RNG and /WAR, and said that I needed to be either /NIN or /WHM so I'd have some form of damage mitigation. I do plan on trying /DNC in Dynamis once I finish getting it leveled.

In Salvage, I'm a pretty low priority in unlocking MP restrictions and not only that, i need the, Job ability, subjob and magic pathos lifted then I need the Max MP Down pathos lifted. If I sub DNC, I don't need magic or MP pathos lifted and those two go right to the people that need them, all I'd need are JA and SJ pathos lifted, along with weapon pathos. Gun wouldn't come til later and any LS that puts COR and BRD low on the ranged slot would be pretty foolish.

So, to me, banking on Curaga II is very risky bet, you may or may not be able to use it by the final floor boss and other member's needs must be considered along the way. Better to minimize your needs to get others unlocked with what they really need so you can move along quickly. Time is just as important as curative abilities. If you're looking to a COR for Curaga II in your hour of need, your Salvage LS is horribly undermanned.
Yeah, I know COR is pretty much at the bottom of the list for subjob and magic cells, and whether we get those unlocked will vary from zone to zone. In Bhaflau and Silver Seas it's no problem since cells are plentiful there, but I don't count on getting subjob/magic cells whenever we do Arrapago or Zhayolm. I never said anything about "counting on" a COR's Curaga II to survive a fight, I was just trying to make the point that if we do get subjobs and magic unlocked, an extra source of Cure III, Curaga II, Paralyna, and Erase can be extremely helpful on Chariot bosses.

For Ouryu, if we're going to talk about any benefit from /WHM, the top of the list would not be Curaga II, but Barstonra. That's the first edge I'd look at from /WHM over /SCH. If you have that and a BLU in PT, you could slip on Magus roll to cut out some serious damage. A BRD with Earth Carol wouldn't hurt, either.
Barstonra from /WHM sub is useless for Ouryu; you'll never resist its damage with such a small boost. The commonly accepted "first tier" of barspell resistance on Wyrms is ~120 resist, and to get consistent full elemental resists you need closer to 230 or more. This isn't possible to achieve with /WHM Barstonra, even when stacked with Earth Carol.

Our LS fights Ouryu manaburn style, with 2 BLM parties and 1 tank party. Typically the tank party will have a heavy earth resist build and a WHM with AF2 pants/Blessed Briault/Barspell merits to get them in the ~230 resist range, and that party will be taking very little damage. The outside parties, on the other hand, will be taking frequent damage from Wings and this is where Curaga II helps. Magus Roll is a waste of a roll slot, since our primary purpose in that fight is to keep Evoker's Roll and Warlock's roll on the BLM's, who need the extra magic accuracy to land their nukes consistently on Ouryu.

I've heard it come from you several times when rationalizing /BLM. What does /BLM offer over /SCH and /WHM, aside from MAB II?
The only thing that I've ever tried to rationalize /BLM for is kited Kirin fights where my risk of taking any damage aside from Astral Flow is negligible (this will vary from LS to LS though, we have exceptionally good kiters). /RDM or /BLU are great subs for kited Kirins, too, due to their MAB I trait and better innate survivability, I just don't have those leveled. I've never used and probably never would use /BLM for anything else as COR. My LS has switched to almost exclusively TP burning Kirin now anyway, so it's kind of a moot point anyway.

[Callisto]

The only thing that I've ever tried to rationalize /BLM for is kited Kirin fights where my risk of taking any damage aside from Astral Flow is negligible (this will vary from LS to LS though, we have exceptionally good kiters). /RDM or /BLU are great subs for kited Kirins, too, due to their MAB I trait and better innate survivability, I just don't have those leveled. I've never used and probably never would use /BLM for anything else as COR. My LS has switched to almost exclusively TP burning Kirin now anyway, so it's kind of a moot point anyway.

If I know for sure that it's all we're aiming to do for the night in Sea I've become partial to using BLM on JoFort/JoTemp, QD becomes such a large % of total damage in those fights that it's worth maxing it to me.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Dynamis, Nyzul, and Salvage sans bosses is the "90% of the time" I was referring to where I melee as /WHM and have perfectly good accuracy, so I guess we're in agreement on that part. As an example, I did Dynamis Beaucedine last night as /WHM, and missed a total of 4 out of 62 Slug Shots fired. That was with a full STR weaponskill build, too.

I just find /DNC more useful for all said situations here, I hate taking any losses on performance. I want my subjob to give something that already compliments part of my main job and not only on the support end. We are a support class, but not so meek as a BRD or tied up in buffing like a RDM.

COR/DNC furthers my advantages on buffs and lets me turn TP into cures, I get Accuracy Bonus and fewer conflicts on gear. That's why I regard it a lot more highly - it doesn't really take away from the main at all, it compliments it. /BLU and /RDM give damage to QD while letting use also have protective buffs and cures for allies, along with stat boots from /BLU, again, these are things that give to the main job and have cures.

/WHM and /BRD literally do nothing but give away to others - that's the same problem as SMN/WHM to me. Subjob should never define the main, only compliment it.


Eh, maybe it's just me but I'd rather have 2 DD rolls like Chaos and Fighters on early Salvage floors to speed up the killing. As you mentioned, COR most likely won't get subjob unlocked on those early floors anyway, so subjob choice really isn't all that relevant until later on in Salvage. That's the reason I choose to go /WHM - not because it's the most effective sub on early floors (it's not), but because it's the most helpful on Chariot bosses.

Meh, once you've gotten some MNKs unlocked, it all goes down pretty fast. LS was low on MP jobs, so I was bottom rung for subjob and MP cells. Since RDM was partially unlocked, I just went with Evoker's/Dancer's to ease up things on healing. DNC Roll is pretty powerful stuff given its duration.


Heh, I get that a lot too, as do most COR's I'm sure. My Dynamis LS leader got pissed the couple times I came /RNG and /WAR, and said that I needed to be either /NIN or /WHM so I'd have some form of damage mitigation. I do plan on trying /DNC in Dynamis once I finish getting it leveled.

I did a run on it in Bastok and hope to try in Valkurm tomorrow. I was able to keep my PT going when I was /DNC for the time WHM was AFK... which was like an hour. Quads die there quickly though, so it wasn't really main healing the PT to me. Drain Samba helped out quite a bit for healing.


Barstonra from /WHM sub is useless for Ouryu; you'll never resist its damage with such a small boost. The commonly accepted "first tier" of barspell resistance on Wyrms is ~120 resist, and to get consistent full elemental resists you need closer to 230 or more. This isn't possible to achieve with /WHM Barstonra, even when stacked with Earth Carol.

Reduced damage is reduced damage. If someone is gonna tell me to go /WHM for Curaga II because "every bit helps" then Barstonra and Magus Roll are all the more helpful in keeping damage numbers low. I've never underplayed the benefit of Barspells, Carol, Shell or Magus Roll - it helps a lot. Doesn't matter if its an Avatar, BQ, Bahamut or wha

Most people would also consider Curaga II useless for a manaburned Ouryu as well. I don't like subjobs for "just in case something goes wrong." Not that you need to /RNG or /DNC a manaburned mob, still, I don't think Curaga II is the dealbreaker you're making it out to be.

Our LS fights Ouryu manaburn style, with 2 BLM parties and 1 tank party. Typically the tank party will have a heavy earth resist build and a WHM with AF2 pants/Blessed Briault/Barspell merits to get them in the ~230 resist range, and that party will be taking very little damage. The outside parties, on the other hand, will be taking frequent damage from Wings and this is where Curaga II helps. Magus Roll is a waste of a roll slot, since our primary purpose in that fight is to keep Evoker's Roll and Warlock's roll on the BLM's, who need the extra magic accuracy to land their nukes consistently on Ouryu.

It depends on the PT. If I was COR with BLMs, I'd do Evoker's/Wizard's or Warlock's Roll.

But then, you just told me you've not always been put in the BLM PTs either.

I'd want Magus on the tank PT as my 2nd Roll if magic damage was a concern, and then Evoker's for the PLDs. I've done tank PTs on various mobs with COR and we do have rolls to benefit them. They might not excel compared to other buffs, but that doesn't mean they're useless, either. Dancer's Roll, Gallant's, Evoker's and Magus all have benefits for them.

[Kylen]

I just find /DNC more useful for all said situations here, I hate taking any losses on performance.
Well, I guess we see "loss of performance" in different ways, then. While subbing /DNC gives 10 more accuracy, I'd think that it would have a noticeably lower total damage output than /WHM if you're constantly having to spend your TP on cures instead of weaponskills. Not having "gear conflicts" is irrelevant to me, since I use my full melee/WS gear sets most of the time anyway when I'm /WHM. /WHM isn't taking anything away from my main job in this case or even defining it; it simply complements it with a very useful spell list and a ~180 mp pool that is being refreshed most of the time with Evoker's Roll.

This isn't about /DNC, though, it's about /SCH vs. /WHM. I think /DNC can be a useful sub for COR in certain situations as I've stated in another thread here.

Reduced damage is reduced damage. If someone is gonna tell me to go /WHM for Curaga II because "every bit helps" then Barstonra and Magus Roll are all the more helpful in keeping damage numbers low. I've never underplayed the benefit of Barspells, Carol, Shell or Magus Roll - it helps a lot. Doesn't matter if its an Avatar, BQ, Bahamut or wha

Most people would also consider Curaga II useless for a manaburned Ouryu as well. I don't like subjobs for "just in case something goes wrong." Not that you need to /RNG or /DNC a manaburned mob, still, I don't think Curaga II is the dealbreaker you're making it out to be.
/sigh... the whole point I'm making is you don't get reduced damage on Ouryu from 1/2 strength barstonra. Try it sometime if you don't believe me. Curaga II is far more valuable in that fight when manaburning, and while BLM's should be casting it on themselves as well, having you cast it also saves them some mp which can be better used for nukes.

Curaga II isn't a "just in case something goes wrong" spell for manaburned Ouryu when we do it. I find myself casting it almost non-stop in that fight, since Ouryu does a ton of AOE TP moves in the air which are larger than the BLMs' casting range. Stoneskin is extremely helpful for mitigating AOE damage during the fight as well.

It depends on the PT. If I was COR with BLMs, I'd do Evoker's/Wizard's or Warlock's Roll.

But then, you just told me you've not always been put in the BLM PTs either.
I was put in the tank party once for an Ouryu fight, and used Magus/Evoker's Roll. We all unanimously decided afterward that COR would be much more useful in the BLM party instead for Warlock's/Evoker's, and I haven't been in the tank party for Ouryu since then.

This whole discussion is getting silly, though. We're in different LS's that fight things using different setups and strategies, and we can't expect any COR's experience to be exactly the same as ours. I've given a few personal examples where /WHM is unquestionably the best subjob for myself given the strategies and setups that my LS's use, but lots of other LS's and groups do things differently or focus on different activities/HNM's.

If mp efficiency is more important to you than Curaga/Erase/Stoneskin/Blink, sub /SCH. Personally, I'd have a hard time giving up those 4 spells seeing as they're often one of the main reasons I sub /WHM, but if you don't tend to use those spells very much then I can understand why you'd value /SCH more.

To each their own, I guess.