Blu/Nin, Is it a must?

[Vildar]

Hello, i recently got my blue to level 21 (was 22 but de-leveld trying to solo) and i have been tolled that i MUST sub nin for blu to be effective atall. But i also have seen high level blu/war's running around and they have said i dont actualy need nin.

I understand that with nin subbed my survivability is higher, and that i gain more tp (so ive been told), which in tern makes my spells more effective. But do i actualy have to sub nin? Trying to level it is just to painfull for me.

Would Blu/war be ok or is it an absolute certenty that i must sub nin.
As i have said above, i have seen blu/war's running around in parties.

Please dont have a go at me if it is "ment" to be subbed. Thanks for any information :)

PS: Sorry for any spelling errors i have made.

[Pteryx]

Hello, i recently got my blue to level 21 (was 22 but de-leveld trying to solo) and i have been tolled that i MUST sub nin for blu to be effective atall. But i also have seen high level blu/war's running around and they have said i dont actualy need nin.

I understand that with nin subbed my survivability is higher, and that i gain more tp (so ive been told), which in tern makes my spells more effective. But do i actualy have to sub nin? Trying to level it is just to painfull for me.

The idea that /NIN improves your TP gain is false. Dual Wield adds the delay of your two weapons together, then takes away a small percentage of that depending on the level of the trait in order to figure your base delay. You are then given TP as though you were swinging a singular weapon with that delay. Dual Wield is NOT a haste effect! Thus, you gain TP no faster, though your DoT improves.

However, Dual Wield does add an extra hit to multi-hit weaponskills. While it hasn't been outright proven, it's believed to add an extra hit to multi-hit physical spells as well -- meaning BLU would benefit from that aspect of Dual Wield more than anyone else.

But is it absolutely necessary? No. /WAR and /THF will both give you means of improving your damage. /WHM or /SCH will let you change roles into an effective healer, in case a party needs that instead of a DDer. -- Pteryx

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

The OP is looking for reasons to not level something that can be useful to his job. I've levelled subjobs like WAR and WHM twice, I'm about to go for a second round of NIN and DNC. What makes it so painful, other than it requires spending gil, questing scrolls and a little BCNMing? You can honestly solo NIN to 37 with ease these days, especially so with a DNC or WHM subjob prepared.

If you want to depend on everyone around you to help you to learn your spells, by all means, skip levelling NIN. You'll kill a big part of being able to solo as BLU and make the path to learning your spells all the more difficult.

[Celeal]

Consider /nin is a tool for your to learn blue magic, a tool for solo, or another way to enjoy playing BLU.

For leveling subjobs, if you trying to *rush* it, it may not be fun. Just take the time and enjoy the process ^^/

[Vildar]

True i guess, Spose it dosnt help with my LS trying to rush me into leveling nin as fast i can. TBH personly i think that nin is a little to over rated. I mean, i sware i heard something about SAM having to sub it now... even though the sam abilities double the recast right? Anyhoo, i dont deny that nin is a good sub for blu, its just leveling it is becoming quite painfull. Any good solo points for leveling nin? Atmo its 13.

[Malacite]

Thus, you gain TP no faster, though your DoT improves.

You do if you are NIN/WAR, WAR/NIN or THF/NIN but otherwise this is spot on ^^b

[VZX]

Dual Wield does improve your TP gain in average. Just because it reduce 1.3~ TP/hit, it doesn't make "gain TP no faster" as a result.



True i guess, Spose it dosnt help with my LS trying to rush me into leveling nin as fast i can. TBH personly i think that nin is a little to over rated. I mean, i sware i heard something about SAM having to sub it now... even though the sam abilities double the recast right? Anyhoo, i dont deny that nin is a good sub for blu, its just leveling it is becoming quite painfull. Any good solo points for leveling nin? Atmo its 13.
/NIN is a good effective sub for many jobs, offensively and defensively. This includes BLU.
If you think /NIN is overrated, I think you underrate the effectiveness of /NIN.

/SAM on the other hand, doesn't do much on BLU. A job with 1-handed weapon main simply get the lower end benefit from /SAM.

Soloing melee job has always been the same for me. Aim mid-EP mob, kill as fast as you can.

[Deeke]

The OP never mentioned a thing about BLU/SAM.

(And I've never considered DW to be a +TP job trait. I share Pteryx's understanding that you simply swing faster but get a mathematically proportional deduction to your TP per swing, thus taking your TP gain back to what it would be without DW.)

[IfritnoItazura]

Dual Wield does improve your TP gain in average. Just because it reduce 1.3~ TP/hit, it doesn't make "gain TP no faster" as a result.

Hmmm. Using Lv.30 Centurion's Sword (225 delay) as example:

One hand:
TP/round = 5 + (225 - 180) * 6.5 / 270
TP/round = 6.0

TP/sec = 6.0 / (225/60)
TP/sec = 1.6


Dual Wield I: 10%
Delay = (225 * 2) * (100% - 10%)
Delay = 405

TP/round = 5 + (405 - 180) * 6.5 / 270
TP/round = 10.4

TP/sec = 10.4 / (405/60)
TP/sec ~= 1.54


If accuracy is the same, 225 delay sword will gain TP slower with Dual Wield--if I calculated everything correctly.

[Tomato_Kai]

I'm not sure what the argument in this thread is, so I'll answer questions related to the three main arguments that I see. Well, as best as I can, anyhow.

Should the OP lvl nin for blu sub?

My answer: Sure! Why not? It's an effective sub for a good number of jobs, and blue mage is one of them. Why not level it now and get it out of the way?

Does the OP need to lvl nin to be effective with blue?

My Answer: Hell no! I like /thf more anyhow, personally. Sneak attack is so nifty.

Is dual wield an effective TP gain tool?

My Answer: Not especially. It wasn't really designed to be. You'll get bonuses from it, but largely in areas other than TP gain.

[Vildar]

Hmmm. Using Lv.30 Centurion's Sword (225 delay) as example:

One hand:
TP/round = 5 + (225 - 180) * 6.5 / 270
TP/round = 6.0

TP/sec = 6.0 / (225/60)
TP/sec = 1.6


Dual Wield I: 10%
Delay = (225 * 2) * (100% - 10%)
Delay = 405

TP/round = 5 + (405 - 180) * 6.5 / 270
TP/round = 10.4

TP/sec = 10.4 / (405/60)
TP/sec ~= 1.54


If accuracy is the same, 225 delay sword will gain TP slower with Dual Wield--if I calculated everything correctly.

Thats some confusing math there :worry:, or is it just me...
Anyhoo thank you all for your comments/information. I will continue to level nin. Im just finding it not as fun as any of the other jobs i have leveld.
I do admit, subbed to blue it is quite a nice job, just wish was a little more fun to level.

[skot23]

Nin, is great for three things:
Shadows
dual wield
added evasion

Also, once you hit 50, you've got access to sneak and invisible (which was a big reason for subbing whm) previously. Having shadows up has saved my ass tons of times. Nin is tough to level if you're not into tanking, but it's totally worth it. The big 3 subs are nin, whm and thf. I've found that leveling all three has taught me more about the game.

[Kaickul]

Yes, you should get NIN leveled up for a sub.
No, you shouldn't use it for leveling until 50+ when you can start using Haste gear to improve your DoT.

When I was leveling BLU I found that I could do more damage through DoT with /NIN (level 50+) because good spells at lower levels have high MP cost and so-so damage.

Also, as IfritnoItazura mentioned, lower delay weapons are what work best for Dual Wield. Using higher delay weapons pretty much kills the point.

[VZX]

Hmmm. Using Lv.30 Centurion's Sword (225 delay) as example:
*snip*
Dual Wield I: 10%
Delay = (225 * 2) * (100% - 10%)
Delay = 405

TP/round = 5 + (405 - 180) * 6.5 / 270
TP/round = 10.4

TP/sec = 10.4 / (405/60)
TP/sec ~= 1.54


If accuracy is the same, 225 delay sword will gain TP slower with Dual Wield--if I calculated everything correctly.
This is incorrect,
For TP gain, you need to plug the delay of each hand. In this case, it is 405/2 = 202, not 405.

So the correct one is:
TP/round = 5 + (202 - 180) * 6.5 / 270
TP/round = 5.5 TP/hand * 2 = 11.0 TP

TP/sec = 10.4 / (405/60)
TP/sec ~= 1.63

Slightly better than one-handed, but it's not worse.

[IfritnoItazura]

Ah, I see; I took a shortcut unconsciously. lol.

So, the statement "Dual Wield gives no better TP gain" is technically false. How about "Dual Wield's improvement to TP gain is negligible"? Is that better?

[Armando]

Also, as IfritnoItazura mentioned, lower delay weapons are what work best for Dual Wield. Using higher delay weapons pretty much kills the point.Noooooooooo. False, false, false! The best weapons to dual wield are almost always also the best weapons to single wield. Their speed is mostly irrelevant unless your job specializes in low Delay weapons, and even then the speed (which is mainly considered for the small TP advantage it would provide) is secondary to DPS. For instance, there's no better weapon combo for THF at 68 than two Hoplites Harpe (other than Harpe anyways, but good luck with that one), and that's two 210 Delay daggers, terribly slow by dagger standards.So, the statement "Dual Wield gives no better TP gain" is technically false. How about "Dual Wield's improvement to TP gain is negligible"? Is that better?For the most part. But you're assuming two of the same weapon - the Dual Wielder may use weapons with different Delays. There's also the fact that the Dual Wielder has to swing in pairs - if he falls short from the TP needed to get to 100 TP by just one swing, he still has to wait two swing's worth of Delay to get the rest. On the other hand, every time the Dual Wielder engages a mob or uses a WS, he's getting one extra hit's worth of TP for free compared to using a single weapon.

[IfritnoItazura]

Also, as IfritnoItazura mentioned, lower delay weapons are what work best for Dual Wield. Using higher delay weapons pretty much kills the point.
I didn't state anything remotely close to that... :wtf: Please don't put words in my mouth.

For the most part. But you're assuming two of the same weapon - the Dual Wielder may use weapons with different Delays. There's also the fact that the Dual Wielder has to swing in pairs - if he falls short from the TP needed to get to 100 TP by just one swing, he still has to wait two swing's worth of Delay to get the rest. On the other hand, every time the Dual Wielder engages a mob or uses a WS, he's getting one extra hit's worth of TP for free compared to using a single weapon.
Er, I was being literal bout TP gain rate, not "speed to 100+ TP".

Wasn't really assuming two of same weapon; I can see you why you'd thought otherwise, though, since the only example I used was Centurion x2. (Those were the weapons I back at Lv.30.)

In any case, Dual Wield improves melee DoT, Utsusemi offers protection from many attacks--and BLU can output enough to utilize that protection--so, BLU/NIN is a perfectly viable combination. For soloing, it's usually a terrific setup to use, to boot.

[Karinya]

DW improves melee DoT compared to no subjob at all (or to something like /WHM, but if you're BLU/WHM you clearly have concerns other than your damage output), but it doesn't improve it compared to /WAR or /THF. Double Attack or Sneak Attack will improve your melee DoT more than Dual Wield will for any weapons that might reasonably be used by a BLU, and SA will help your physical spells a lot too. Double Attack will also improve your TP gain more than Dual Wield, over the long term.

My conclusion when playing BLU was that /NIN was pretty useless - you won't use the shadows unless your tank really really sucks, and then you'd be better off going /WAR and substitute tanking because there are people squishier than you who will be needing the protection. After 30, /THF is the dominant damage dealing sub for BLU. SA physical spells once per minute are very strong and don't rely on TP (which is largely a sideshow for BLU anyway, since your physical spells are way stronger than your sword WS).

So I would say ignore the lemmings, what you really need for BLU is /WAR and /THF. /NIN is handy for solo spell learning and after 74, and not much else.

[IfritnoItazura]

DW improves melee DoT compared to no subjob at all (or to something like /WHM, but if you're BLU/WHM you clearly have concerns other than your damage output), but it doesn't improve it compared to /WAR or /THF. Double Attack or Sneak Attack will improve your melee DoT more than Dual Wield will for any weapons that might reasonably be used by a BLU, and SA will help your physical spells a lot too. Double Attack will also improve your TP gain more than Dual Wield, over the long term.
Double Attack's base activation rate is 10%, right? Dual Wield I is 10% delay reduction. I think that means they would work out to be roughly the same, with DA ahead in TP gain, but Dual Wield giving stronger WS (on average). Double attack is WAR25, IIRC, so BLU/WAR won't even get it until Lv.50. Before then, BLU/NIN should out damage BLU/WAR.

For melee'ing, Sneak Attack from /THF is terrific for forcing a guaranteed crit hit on regular or WS hit. The lower your base accuracy--the more the party over-hunts--the more it shines. Whether it can outdo DA or DW, though, depends on how long each fight, and how much down time between fights. If one can pre-charge it before every fight, it's great. If fighting is continuous or long, though, it's limited by the 60 second cool down. Besides, it's more efficient to use it to increase spell damage for BLU than melee attack or WS. Used correctly, BLU/THF's melee output will be below BLU/NIN's.

Overall, I think /THF for SA on spells will result in highest damage over time because how it raises the damage/MP ratio, letting the player use few spells to achieve high output. In parties where MP flow isn't a problem for the BLU, though, BLU/NIN can and do abuse Utsusemi and dish out over enmity limit without taking damage--something the BLU/THF cannot compete with.


My conclusion when playing BLU was that /NIN was pretty useless - you won't use the shadows unless your tank really really sucks, and then you'd be better off going /WAR and substitute tanking because there are people squishier than you who will be needing the protection.
BLU, like most DDs, can go over the enmity threshold set by any tank in exp parties, especially at higher levels. BLU/WAR tanking starts to fall off in mid to late 30's on VTs to low ITs, from my personal experience as BLU/WAR (which was what I used the most from Lv.10 to 40).

BLU/NIN isn't just a bandwagon; the combination has real advantages. It's not the ultimate DD setup for BLU--BLU/THF is. Except maybe in WS spam parties where you can never be sure which way the monster will face in the next two seconds; in that case, BLU/NIN is the better DD.

[VZX]

Ah, I see; I took a shortcut unconsciously. lol.

So, the statement "Dual Wield gives no better TP gain" is technically false. How about "Dual Wield's improvement to TP gain is negligible"? Is that better?
That should be it. It's slightly better, but in no way worse.

[Lmnop]

From those numbers, looks like dual wield is giving something on a level of 1% faster tp gain... and who knows if it's actually improving "time to 100 tp". But 10% better DPS is a very real benefit of /nin. I'm not sure how it compares to Berserk DoT...

but yeah, /nin is definitely viable. What makes you a lemming is when you start subbing NIN thinking it is the best sub, because someone told you so without analyzing the facts.

Good? Certainly. But it's not like you're subbing IDDQD.

[Raitox]

What level do you guys think /NIN saves a lot more time learning spells (not trying to avoid the job its my main, I'm just a cheapass even at level 68. >.>)

[Karinya]

24, I guess. You can solo some Ts with blu/nin that are difficult with other subs, and if the spell you're looking for is unavailable on any mob lower level than you are...

On the other hand, if you've gotten to 68 without it and not had too much trouble learning your spells (except maybe body slam :D), then you probably don't need it. BLUs have their own blink after 65 anyway (at least to cast between fights), which would probably diminish the usefulness until 74, when utsusemi can be cast between mob swings.

After 74 /nin is horribly overpowered to the point of obviously broken for almost any main job. Everyone should have it, even mages (who will only want to use it in some fights, but they'll REALLY want it for those fights).

[MrMageo]

has anyone ever thought about blu/dnc?

Just popped into my head as i browsed this. I mean it offers some pretty nice things.

ACC boost
EVA boost
Aspir Samba
Erase
Watlzes

I think that right there is better then /NIN for the heavy spell casting blu. (ACC boost would work real nice at low to mid high levels for spell success.)

[Celeal]

IMHO, /DNC is is nice for Campaign Battles. Most of the mob have MP for Aspir Samba, plus Drain Samba I/II has its usage. It is up to the player on how/when/why to use the tools from /DNC.

BLU/SCH seems interesting too ^^;

[VZX]

I use BLU/DNC for campaign battle

My usual Spell sets:
Head Butt
Frenetic Rip + Disseverment
Reactor Cool+Cocoon for default defense/enfeebling move.
Sound Blast + Magic hammer for MAB trait and MP return
MP Drainkiss for extra MP return
Actinic Burst and Plasma Charge for Auto-Refresh
Zephyr Mantle and Chaotic Eye for Conserve MP

Aspir Samba + 2 MP smooch move can provide me enough MP to cast magic fruit everytime it's up.
Heck, I even use BLU/NIN with that spell setup and never have to cast utsusemi at all

[Electricity Gone Human]

In my Opinion?

As /NIN pre-70, The Swords are only there for TP Gain and to slightly add on to the Blue Magic Damage you'll be throwing around. I've yet to see some good DoT coming from Dual Wielding Swords, especially on my level 61 BLU with my Musketeer Commander's Falchions. I do have an Ifrit's Blade on hold, though. Maybe that will change things. 70+, however, you're going to need it for TP Burns purely for Utsusemi, and by the time you hit 72, Disseverment will destroy things.

Like LMNOP said, /NIN is viable, but it's not going to be the only sub you'll be using because everyone else thinks it's the end-all be-all subjob for Blue Mage, which it certainly isn't. I personally like /THF, and I'm proud of doing it so far. Death Scissors is hot. The choice in subjob is more of a personal preference outside of TP Burn parties, really.

[VZX]

, however, you're going to need it for TP Burns purely for Utsusemi, and by the time you hit 72, Disseverment will destroy things.
You certainly lacking the experience of /NIN. Unless you're in BLU burn, you shouldn't have your sword DoT significantly higher than your spells. My usual damage distribution between swords DoT/WS/Spells is 35/30/35

[Electricity Gone Human]

You certainly lacking the experience of /NIN. Unless you're in BLU burn, you shouldn't have your sword DoT significantly higher than your spells.

But I didn't say anything about raising sword DoT over spell damage, did I? So that's helping my point get across.