WAR/DNC Tanking 48-50 GC

[Truece]

Recently, I had the opportunity to join an XP party as WAR/DNC. The party was built with me as the tank. The PT was from 48-50 and the setup was:

WAR/DNC
MNK/WAR
SAM/NIN
WHM/BLM
RDM/BLM
BLM/WHM

We were in the basement of Garlaige fighting beetles and bats. I was also the puller. I was eating Bream Sushi. I was not well-geared for DEF or VIT. The only merits which were useful to me were my Critical Hit merits. I kept Defender up all of the time.

I was able to set the hate line very high by using provoke, waltzes on myself or others (although the amount healed by the waltz was less than the average hit from the mob), drain samba, quick step (to generate FMs), Animated Flourish (when the mob turned and voke wasn't ready), and Warcry (for when the MNK and SAM were about to SC). I did not use any weaponskills, unless I was starting the fight near the end of the chain with more than 100% TP.

I found that I was using a JA of some sort every 2-3 swings, which made the time fly by very quickly. I really had to pay attention to my TP as I wanted to just spam waltzes on myself, which left me not hitting the mob enough.

I required a lot of healing.

PT evolved to:
BLM -> PLD/WAR
WAR
MNK
SAM
RDM -> DNC/NIN
WHM

After the PLD joined, and the RDM left, I changed to a DD/puller role and ate Rice Dumplings or Meat Mithkabobs. I felt that I could've probably held hate equal to the PLD, had I wanted to (in his defense, I didn't give him a lot of time to recover MP between pulls. All things considered, I thought he did a good job w/o refresh). It seemed as though the SAM and MNK would pull hate far more often than when I was tanking.

Gear:
Main: Gigant Axe
Sub: Brass Grip +1
Ammo: Fortune Egg / Dart (for pulling when PLD arrived)
Head: Walkure Mask
Neck: Spike Necklace
Ear: Beetle+1 x2
Body: Brigandine
Hands: Royal Squire's
Rings: Courage Ring/Sniper's Ring
Back: Nomad's Mantle
Waist: Life Belt
Legs: Republic Subligar
Feet: Plate Leggings

I look forward to trying this again soon. I think it blows solo /NIN tanking out of the water (at least at my current level), but I would consider 2x /NIN tanks. Perhaps if I had DEF food and/or adjusted my gear a bit (high breath mantle, higher DEF, etc), I could set the hate line higher while getting by with less healing support. Would an avenger's earring have helped at all for a few counter procs here and there, or is it really useless w/o a true 'counter' build? I am looking forward to trying this again very soon. I also look forward to trying with some AF and retaliation when I ding 60 ^^.

[Icemage]

For WAR/DNC, I think I'd have opted for 1h Axe + Shield (Hard Shield would be a good choice at 48, since it's the first Size 3 shield Warriors get access to). The damage mitigation of a shield can't be beat at that level, and you don't sacrifice accuracy or TP gain in the process. It'll also help you keep up more with the damage versus Waltz/Samba.

I'm not sure if your DEF could have improved any more if you were in Defender full-time. It's worth testing with some DEF food, especially if it lets you stay out of Defender for short bursts (especially if you need to swap into Berserk to regain control of hate).

For enmity-gaining purposes, I'd use a Mermaid's Ring in one of the ring slots, and an activated High Breath Mantle in the back slot. If you've got money to burn, a Nemesis Earring in one slot can add a bit more punch to your actions, too.

Making these small changes should improve your tanking efficiency by quite a bit without making too many sacrifices along the way.


Icemage

[Celeal]

It sounds a lot of fun, great job ^^b

Added:
Viking Axe + Hard Shield may be a good option for WAR/DNC tanking at level 48 too (keep both G.Axe and Axe skill capped)

Instead of Avenger Earring for counter-attack, IMHO counter-attack is not reliable. I would swapping out Sniper Ring with another rings for tanking too, since curing is the outstanding issue.

[Lmnop]

Instead of Avenger Earring for counter-attack, IMHO counter-attack is not reliable. I would swapping out Sniper Ring with another rings for tanking too, since curing is the outstanding issue.

Woodsman is the same price and evasion won't matter when you're tanking with Aggressor...
Avenger's earrings are typically considered useless but you have to think... if there were an earring with "physical damage taken -1%"... wouldn't every meat tank wear it? If so, then that's pretty much what 1% counterattack rate amounts to.

While pre-60, it's true that you don't have Retaliation to abuse for super TP rates... one handed axe means giving up the extra 50% (or whatever that amounts to be) attack and acc from STR and DEX, respectively. Viking axe will cover the acc gap, at least... so you're looking at a large chunk of missed attack to gain a large chunk of damage reduction -- if your C rank shield can work out well enough.

In fact, @54 I think axe/shield could be quite nice with AF hands giving +10 shield skill (and lovely enmity, of course).

Nitpick: no Nemesis earrings for Warrior.

I think sushi/defender was probably a nice way to go... but your attack is really suffering with that combo (and swapping to axe will worsen it -- definitely go GA if you fight crabs).

Since Sushi adds so much acc, you should consider simply using 2x Phalanx rings. Just trading out the Pub Sub (painful in light of my previous section) for Mythril / I.M. Cuisses will net you 16 higher defense. With 2x Phalanx rings, you're probably getting very close to the amount of defense Defender adds.

[Truece]

I guess I'll have to pick up a hard shield and give this axe/shield combo a test. I chose to use G.Axe since my axe skill is slightly behind.

Also, I could probably find gear to macro in for more potent waltzes. But, since this was a 'test run' I didn't want to spend a whole lot of time/money just to find out that the combo sucks. Next time, I will be better prepared!

[LyonheartLakshmi]

After the PLD joined, and the RDM left, I changed to a DD/puller role and ate Rice Dumplings or Meat Mithkabobs. I felt that I could've probably held hate equal to the PLD, had I wanted to (in his defense, I didn't give him a lot of time to recover MP between pulls. All things considered, I thought he did a good job w/o refresh). It seemed as though the SAM and MNK would pull hate far more often than when I was tanking.
Perhaps the MNK and SAM decided to hold back their damage output less because they had more confidence in a PLD tank? I'm not saying that their confidence in this particular PLD is justified. Just saying that the DDs taking hate more often isn't necessarily due to the PLD not generating as much hate as you when you were tank.
Avenger's earrings are typically considered useless but you have to think... if there were an earring with "physical damage taken -1%"... wouldn't every meat tank wear it? If so, then that's pretty much what 1% counterattack rate amounts to.
I'm not sure that every meat tank would wear an earring that granted physical damage taken -1%. It would probably depend on what other options you have available in that same slot for a given level.

How often do you see a PLD wearing Darksteel armor at lvl 65 instead of AF?

[Celeal]

Perhaps the MNK and SAM decided to hold back their damage output less because they had more confidence in a PLD tank? I'm not saying that their confidence in this particular PLD is justified. Just saying that the DDs taking hate more often isn't necessarily due to the PLD not generating as much hate as you when you were tank.

IMHO, it is hard to say. Divine Waltz's (Curaga) hate can be very potent when applied correctly. We are comparing a PLD/WAR without party's Refresh to a WAR/DNC. In this case, I expect the WAR/DNC can recover his resource faster than the PLD/WAR w/o Refresh in the long run.

And don't forget Drain Samba is a very cheap Regen for the DDs if the DD's hate level is close to the tank.

[Truece]

Perhaps the MNK and SAM decided to hold back their damage output less because they had more confidence in a PLD tank? I'm not saying that their confidence in this particular PLD is justified. Just saying that the DDs taking hate more often isn't necessarily due to the PLD not generating as much hate as you when you were tank.

This could be. I guess I was too busy patting myself on the back to think about it this way.

IMHO, it is hard to say. Divine Waltz's (Curaga) hate can be very potent when applied correctly. We are comparing a PLD/WAR without party's Refresh to a WAR/DNC. In this case, I expect the WAR/DNC can recover his resource faster than the PLD/WAR w/o Refresh in the long run.

The only way to know for sure would be to go toe-to-toe with a PLD/WAR (or /DNC) and see who can generate more hate. It just so happens that I know a 50 PLD, and I'm positive he'd help me out. Maybe get a healer, the PLD, and myself in a PT and go to town on some Tough mobs, trying for chains between 2-4, and see who has better control of enmity.

And don't forget Drain Samba is a very cheap Regen for the DDs if the DD's hate level is close to the tank.

When the PLD and DNC joined, I stopped using Drain Samba I in favor of the DNC's Drain Samba II (or maybe it was Haste Samba... I don't recall). But, with a WHM, DNC, and /DNC, we were able to keep people healthy even when MP started to get a little low.

I'm not sure that every meat tank would wear an earring that granted physical damage taken -1%. It would probably depend on what other options you have available in that same slot for a given level.

I love when I go /MNK and see big numbers from counters. Since we're (re)breaking new ground here, I think I may just have to try it out. I think I can get by without one of the Beetle Earrings. The thought of shielding/parrying/countering all while having the ability to self-cure and an extra provoke really makes me want to try this job combination out even more!

[Celeal]

TBH, if WAR/DNC tanking is functional in exp. parties, I don't really care which job combo is the best tank (PLD/WAR, NIN/WAR, etc) ^^;

As for PLD/WAR as exp. tank, I don't consider it as *complete* until level 70, when PLD/WAR finally get Warcry JA. (This is just my opinion)

As the level gets higher, the exp. tanking game is shifting toward speed and endurance.

[Lmnop]

The only way to know for sure would be to go toe-to-toe with a PLD/WAR (or /DNC) and see who can generate more hate. It just so happens that I know a 50 PLD, and I'm positive he'd help me out. Maybe get a healer, the PLD, and myself in a PT and go to town on some Tough mobs, trying for chains between 2-4, and see who has better control of enmity.

Unfortunately, even this would be a bit unfair. Against T mobs, you'll both be doing more damage... but you'll be doing more... more. :P In times past, Paladins everywhere gave up on being full time tank against anything weak as the DDs just get so much higher hate from their damage... while the PLD only gets marginally more (this assumes a mostly turtle Paladin, though).

So on the one hand I'd say this tips the scales in favor of the war/dnc... but on the other hand, this is precisely what a burn party would feel like (which you'll start doing as of 55... but not 'til 60 as /dnc since tanking colibri is a no-no). So maybe this would be an interesting contest... though in all likelihood, it wouldn't prove a whole lot. Just Provoke and Warrior-level damage is enough for hate to be "satisfactory"... let PLDs be enmity king.

The real issue here, is how far can a party continue to chain with a war/dnc tank? Can you take care of yourself enough that the toll on mage's MP is equal to or less than their mp recovery rate?

Also... a single Avenger's Earring really will be like .95% counter rate. No, that's not a typo -- less than 1% of your foe's attacks will be countered. What it boils down to is there's nothing in the earring slot that will make a real, parse-able difference (excepting maybe +8 attack between the 2 slots).

[Celeal]

Actually, when merit on Greater Colibri as PLD/DNC, the TP reset move isn't a big issue: just spend TP on dances before the TP reset kicks in ----- 10TP per Steps, 35TP Curing Waltz II, 25TP per Drain Samba II, or 10TP per Aspir Samba. By the time the Colibri used its TP reset move on my PLD/DNC, I didn't have not much TP anyway... XD

What actually hurt the most is my Flash got reflected. That really hurt my TP gain for PLD/DNC.

[Truece]

Unfortunately, even this would be a bit unfair. Against T mobs, you'll both be doing more damage... but you'll be doing more... more. :P In times past, Paladins everywhere gave up on being full time tank against anything weak as the DDs just get so much higher hate from their damage... while the PLD only gets marginally more (this assumes a mostly turtle Paladin, though).

So on the one hand I'd say this tips the scales in favor of the war/dnc... but on the other hand, this is precisely what a burn party would feel like (which you'll start doing as of 55... but not 'til 60 as /dnc since tanking colibri is a no-no). So maybe this would be an interesting contest... though in all likelihood, it wouldn't prove a whole lot. Just Provoke and Warrior-level damage is enough for hate to be "satisfactory"... let PLDs be enmity king.

The real issue here, is how far can a party continue to chain with a war/dnc tank? Can you take care of yourself enough that the toll on mage's MP is equal to or less than their mp recovery rate?

Our party was getting to chain 4 fairly regularly. Perhaps we could've gone farther, but there was a lot of competition for mobs.

I would suggest that I needed 2 healers to pull this off successfully. One may have been enough to keep me alive, but with all of his/her cure-bombing, it could have been dangerous. IMHO, backline healer + DNC + WAR tank = fun times!

As for which job is the better tank, I guess I don't really care. If I can function as a tank when there isn't a PLD or NIN available, GREAT! If we get a (forgive me) real tank in the party later (as we did in this party) then I have no problems switching foods and becoming a DD.

I give WAR/DNC: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

[Truece]

I had an opportunity to try round 2 (in 2 parts): 52-53 in QC (beetles/ants) and 53-54 Kuftal (crabs).

WAR/DNC
MNK/NIN
DNC/NIN
DNC/NIN
DRG/WAR
WHM/BLM

I had an opportunity to raise my axe skill a little, and wanted to see how well shield procs would help, so I opted to go axe/shield. I ate Tav. Tacos and had defender up full-time. My gear selection was the same as above, except for using Viking Axe/Hard Shield instead of G.Axe/grip. The mobs were mostly VT, with the occasional T and maybe an IT thrown in. We were chaining and killing very fast. The only real chain-stoppers were lack of mobs, or PLD ants ><.

As long as I had a few finishing moves available at the start of the fight, things would go relatively smoothly. The MNK would tend to just use his Raging Fists whenever he had the TP, even before I could get a voke in (ie 'voke timer wasn't ready, and all I had was animated flourish). I wonder if he had some +enmity merits, as he was the only one giving me problems with hate.

After most of the party dinged 53, and xp started to get really slow, we decided to move to Kuftal tunnel and camp at the Cape Terrigan zoneline. The lack of dispel was a big concern, but we moved out there anyways.

I continued using Tav. Tacos and Axe/shield at the start of this camp, too, but found that I was hitting for 0 way too much to accumulate enough TP to use steps and have flourish available. The dancers would alternate between Haste/Drain II sambas, favoring Haste. As a result, I switched to G.Axe. Eventually, the MNK replaced himself with a RDM and the PT really started to roll. With my higher accuracy (near-cap G.Axe skill), I was able to keep my finishing moves up and settled into a very nice hate-generating routine of:

Provoke > quick step > waltz > Flourish > quick step > waltz > Provoke > ...

This would give me a Provoke or 'voke lite' every 15 seconds, which did wonders for the hate threshold. I didn't feel like I had to worry about the WHM or RDM casting a Cure IV on me. At one point, a link happened, and I found myself voking one mob, and using flourish on the slept mob. When we killed the first, and woke the second, all it took was a single 'voke to get it to come after me instead of the RDM after 3 sleep IIs.

After I fell into the routine of keeping hate, I found that the DNCs also found a comfortable routine to keep me healed up, basically alternating waltzes on me. The end result was that the RDM and WHM were sitting on very comfy MP pools. We probably could've done without one of the DNC in favor of a BLM or another DD.

I tried using Sushi, Dumplings, and Mithkabobs as well as not having Defender up full-time, but I wasn't comfortable with the amount of damage that I was taking on average to stay away from tacos/defender. Even though my damage output was a bit lower, I felt that it was less of a burden on the rest of the PT to keep me alive.

I still believe that WAR/DNC needs to have a healer AND backup healer for the PT to flow. WHM/SCH/RDM as main healer with DNC as a backup is a perfect combination. 2 Dancers may be overkill, though.

I look forward to trying this again, especially after I get to equip my AF gloves next level for the +10 shield skill. Plus, I have since skilled up my axe to near-cap which should also help me hit accurately.

Side note: /DNC is a great way to skill up! I was able to go from 106-150 on EP/DC beetles, ants, goblins, and dhalmels in the deserts with no downtime!

[Icemage]

^
Note to the above: Dhalmels + solo = bad idea unless you have access to Erase or Cocoon. Sonic Wave + Stomping will leave you eating dirt, even from an "Easy Prey" Dhalmel.

---

Did you find that the shield was reducing your damage noticeably? Defender's big drawback is the ATK penalty, so the odd hit for 0 will happen if your 1H Axe skill isn't up to snuff, but I don't really see why you'd hit for 0 with capped Axe skill on non-Crabs (who not only have Scissor Guard for DEF UP, but are Paladin types with absurd amounts of VIT and base DEF).


Icemage

[Celeal]

IMHO, should not expect much without Dispel on Crabs at 50+ range. As the OP said, once the RDM joined the party, exp. starts to roll.

Great job Truece ^^b It is nice to be the pioneer of new job combo :D

[IfritnoItazura]

Tavnazian Taco is overkill at Lv.50-ish.

Fish Mithkabob: Def+25% (90@360); 30 min.
Shallops Tropicale: Def+25% (100@400); 180 min.


Even if you die once every hour, Tropicale would probably work out to be cheaper than Tavnazian Taco. (If the tank dies once every 30 minutes or more frequently, the party is over-hunting and/or the healers are slacking.) Unless your base defense exceeds 400, you're not getting more defense out of the Taco.

[Truece]

^
Note to the above: Dhalmels + solo = bad idea unless you have access to Erase or Cocoon. Sonic Wave + Stomping will leave you eating dirt, even from an "Easy Prey" Dhalmel.
---
Did you find that the shield was reducing your damage noticeably? Defender's big drawback is the ATK penalty, so the odd hit for 0 will happen if your 1H Axe skill isn't up to snuff, but I don't really see why you'd hit for 0 with capped Axe skill on non-Crabs (who not only have Scissor Guard for DEF UP, but are Paladin types with absurd amounts of VIT and base DEF).


The few dhalmel that I killed didn't seem to be a threat. I'm not sure the level range of the dhalmel in EAD, but they weren't a problem to me at 52. I actually preferred them since I was only looking for axe skillups, and the more they used healing breeze, the better. (Actually, I liked fighting the occasional PLD ant, too, for the same reason) There was a level 60 WAR/NIN skilling up G.Axe out there at the same time. HE was resting after every fight with 50% HP while I never stopped. /DNC is SE's gift to healers in skill-up PTs :)

I wasn't extremely pleased with the damage reduction from the shield. At the time I was using it, however, I was spending more time trying to keep the mob focused on me instead of trying to analyze the amount of damage I was taking. Then, when we moved to crabs, my axe skill was still well below cap (~130ish at 53). So that, coupled with Defender, really impacted my ability to hit for non-zero numbers (I assume).

After I get my AF gloves on, I really want to try again and pay closer attention to how often a shield block procs (not to mention that I want to have my axe skill capped so that I can get Rampage ^^ ).

Tavnazian Taco is overkill at Lv.50-ish.

Fish Mithkabob: Def+25% (90@360); 30 min.
Shallops Tropicale: Def+25% (100@400); 180 min.


Even if you die once every hour, Tropicale would probably work out to be cheaper than Tavnazian Taco. (If the tank dies once every 30 minutes or more frequently, the party is over-hunting and/or the healers are slacking.) Unless your base defense exceeds 400, you're not getting more defense out of the Taco.

Yeah, at the time, it was more a matter of 'what can I buy from the Rabao AH, since I was skilling up in the desert when the invite came'.

---

I think the real test will come when I've got both Axe and G.Axe capped and have full AF and Retaliation. Ultimately I need TP to keep the mob focused on me, so as long as axe gets adequate TP gain, I think that Axe/Shield will be the preferred combo.

It is nice to be the pioneer of new job combo :D

Over the course of 2 xp parties as WAR/DNC tank, I have /befriended 3 new people! It sure is a fun way to play the game, so long as the PT is willing to go along with it. So far, nobody has complained (at least where I could see) that they had a WAR tank in their PT. In fact, here are a couple of memorable quotes from the PT in Kuftal: "who needs a PLD or NIN, when you've got Truece [to which I replied: 'and a LOT of healing']" and "It's great that SE finally released a new tank job..." :wtf:

[Celeal]

Is your shield capped at your WAR's level? Swap in between size 1 + size 3 shield is very handy for keeping shiled capped: When level up, use size 1 until shield skill is capped, then go back to size 3 =)

Unlike PLD, I think WAR would need a little more DEF+ and VIT+ in order to reach the diminish return of defense. It is because PLD has a few native of Defensive bonus Job Trait.

Back in the days (before PLD Auto-Refresh) on my PLD I stick with Tavnazian Taco because of +hmp bonus. Stack with a dark staff and heal between pull at the right timing, worked well for my PLD in the old days. But on WAR/DNC, I think you won't get most benefit from Tavnazian Taco, compare to other defensive food.

If the DEF +10 ring is cheap, I suggest to try both ^^; Avoid Defender if possible.

[Lmnop]

Yeah, I think my previous suggestions to get you +36 defense would be a good start in getting away from constant Defender (which means having Defender to play the Berserk-null trick). This would more than make up for the +attack lost from the subligar.

You won't notice the lost +STR. As for giving up a +5 acc ring... if you're using axe/shield, there's Viking axe. If you're using GA, Fourth Gauntlets @level 55 (if you don't need the enmity of the gloves or if +5 acc will get you more enmity in the scheme of things) are dirt cheap.

Anyway, thanks for the continuing updates, Truece. You get a big cheesy thumbs up from me.

[Truece]

Alright, I'll buy some better +DEF items, maybe eat some shallops tropicale, and stay away from Defender, and let you know how it goes.

[Truece]

Round 3: FIGHT!

WAR/DNC
MNK/WAR
SAM/NIN
COR/RNG
SMN/WHM
BLM/WHM

I updated my gear slightly:

Rings: *Soldier's Ring/Phalanx Ring
Body: IM Cuirass
Back: Gaia mantle
Legs: IM Cuisses

We camped at Cape Terrigan zone in Kuftal Tunnel, fighting crabs, PT was levels 50-54. I continued to use tavnazian tacos (since I had some left over from the previous party). I used axe/sheild combo and only used defender if the healer was getting low on MP or I was getting low on HP. I was a little frustrated with the SMN (who was main healing) since he tended to spam cure III on me, even when it wasn't necessary. I asked him not to heal me past ~900 HP (75%) so that the latent on my Soldier's Ring would be active, but he continued to heal me to full. However, this was my first time tanking w/ only 1 healer (although a DNC would've been a perfect addition, imho) and we fared quite well.

The biggest problem that I had was getting finishing moves, since quickstep seemed to miss often. The result being that I didn't always have animated flourish available. This could be related to my lower-skilled Axe (156 @ 54) and the lack of my Sniper's Ring (and ACC+2 on my gloves, when I switched to AF). The COR was switching between Fighter's Roll and Samurai's Roll. The Store TP from Samurai's Roll was a nice boost since I was missing so often and my TP gain was a bit slow for my taste.

The BLM had a death wish, I think. He wouldn't even wait for my 2nd 'voke before he would start casting Stone III or AM (not to mention casting AM when the mob was above 50% health). Rant: After 25 mins, the BLM (leader) dings 55. The COR (who was just 50 at the time) said something about the 5-level gap. The BLM responds, "I'll leave then", changes the leader to someone else, and leaves the PT in the middle of a fight! I couldn't believe it! We continued on for the next 45 mins w/ just 5 until a replacement BLM was found.

While I tried to pay closer attention to how often I would block, I had a difficult time seeing how often a block would proc. I immediately switched into AF gloves (STR+4, Shield skill +10) as soon as I dinged 54.

Throughout the night I was getting some nice shield/parry skillups. I'm still on the fence about G.Axe vs. Axe/Shield, but I can say that it sure is nice to see hits for 20-30 damage instead of 70-100! I still feel that I am a 'better' tank when I keep defender up full-time. At least then I don't feel like a huge MP sponge. I want healers to think "cool, a WAR tank. {Yes, please.}" instead of "ugh, a WAR tank. {Thanks for the offer, but I'll have to pass.}"

Near the end of the PT, someone said "Tru, I keep thinking you're a PLD!", which I'll take as a compliment. I'd still like to get in a PT w/ a PLD and see how my hate tools hold up...

*I picked up a Soldier's Ring since I was getting low on funds, and it was only 1k. I thought that it would be fairly easy to keep the latent active since I rarely go over 50TP due to steps/waltzes. If the healer will cooperate next time, I think I'll try it again.

[Lmnop]

Unless you're "through" with war/dnc and experimentation, I just think a 4th party is required. Preferably one with an actual WHM playing main healer. This should help a lot, and I bet a brd/whm or a blu could take care of emergency cures and you'd be fine.

Also, do you have a rough estimate of what your defense is, currently? (without food or defender. Just in your tanking gear).

Thanks for the continuing good reads.

[Truece]

Unless you're "through" with war/dnc and experimentation, I just think a 4th party is required. Preferably one with an actual WHM playing main healer. This should help a lot, and I bet a brd/whm or a blu could take care of emergency cures and you'd be fine.

Also, do you have a rough estimate of what your defense is, currently? (without food or defender. Just in your tanking gear).

Thanks for the continuing good reads.

Something tells me that I'll be getting invited as tank more often than DD for the next few levels, so I won't be "through" until the community stops inviting me for that purpose. I worry that the mobs will start hitting me too hard for me to be a viable tank soon (and by viable, I mean not being an MP sponge). TBH, I'm surprised that I've been able to tank 50+.

My preferred healing support would be WHM + DNC, with some form of backline support (RDM, COR, BRD). Realistically, I think I could get buy with a form of Cure III (or equivalent) from two sources. Regen II + Drain Samba II = :thumbsup:.

My DEF with the equipment changes mentioned above and before food/buffs was 306 (or close to it) iirc (I'll verify the next time I log on).

The next big milestone will come at 60 with Curing Waltz II, Retaliation, and full AF (aka "Lots o' enmity!").

I appreciate the gear suggestions that everyone here has given me. Since this is my first melee (tank) job, I'm really clueless about some of the gear choices that I should be making, and the threads in the WAR forums don't exactly focus on equipping for tanking.

Anyhow, I'll continue to post my experiences as WAR/DNC tank. It definitely seems like a viable option from 30-60, and I hope it works all the way through 75!

[Icemage]

I'm not really sure how much longer you can hang on to the WAR/DNC tank role these days, but if nothing else it's providing you with an interesting way to level Warrior up to the point when you hit TP-burns.

If your base defense, pre-Protect/food is around 300, then I'd expect Defender to give you maybe 85-110 points of DEF after Protect and Food (Protect III is 40DEF, and your typical food in that range will offer maybe 90 DEF at most).

In order to counteract this, you can ask for some simple changes.

(1) On enemies that have especially high damage TP attacks (Spider's Sickle Slash), ask for Bio II to be applied if you have a RDM, BLM, or DRK available. Bio II's -10.35% ATK down effect is effectively equal to about half of the defense boost of Defender. Failing this, even Bio I cast from a SCH/RDM will offer -5.27% ATK, which may or may not move you into another damage calculation bracket. Against Crabs or other high DEF targets, though, you're probably going to want to stick to Dia II.

(2) If you're fighting crabs or Crawlers, make sure to bring a Bard, Corsair, Red Mage, or Scholar (in a nuking role, so they can use Addendum: Black for Dispel). Scissor Guard and Cocoon are going to kill your TP gain more than anything else, and that's one thing you simply can't afford to have happen.

(3) Remind whatever healer you have to pretty please keep Regen/Regen II/Regen III on you at all times, if they're not casting it regularly.


Icemage

[Neomage]

Avenger's earrings are typically considered useless but you have to think... if there were an earring with "physical damage taken -1%"... wouldn't every meat tank wear it? If so, then that's pretty much what 1% counterattack rate amounts to.

Actually, no. Statistics are funny. A 1% counterattack rate does not mean you will counterattack 1% of the time. Rather, it means each time you are hit you have a 1% chance of counterattacking. This does not mean after 99 hits, your next hit will be countered. Unlike a -1% Damage Taken Earring, which is a certain -1% damage taken(though this is a very small bonus in and of itself, and would only be used if nothing better is available) with Avengers you are likely to go 0/300+ before seeing a successful counter as a direct result of Avenger's Earring. This means if Avenger's Earring is your only source of counterattack, it would, in fact, be quite worthless. If you are stacking Counterattack %+ however, and got up to say, +50% counter(Or maybe less, +25% should be adequate) Avenger's would help out much more.

[Armando]

Actually, Bio's efficiency against high damage TP attacks is questionable. Most of these attacks are either magical or crit WS, and a crit WS sort of bypasses Attack/Defense in the same way that an SAWS will always hit an HNM for respectable damage.

[Icemage]

Actually, Bio's efficiency against high damage TP attacks is questionable. Most of these attacks are either magical or crit WS, and a crit WS sort of bypasses Attack/Defense in the same way that an SAWS will always hit an HNM for respectable damage.
Which WS are you thinking of particularly? The only one that springs to mind is Power Attack from Beetles? Obivously it won't help against magic WS, but I think Truece knows which ones are which, and people don't generally XP on stuff that uses big magical WS anyway, except maybe something like Dragonfly-types.

Pecking Flurry isn't a critical hit attack, is it?


Icemage

[Armando]

Oh, no, Pecking Flurry is just your run-of-the-mill 3-hit WS. It could work against that.

I was thinking particularly of Sickle Slash. Technically, Screwdriver as well, but people don't EXP off of pugils at high levels, do they? And Power Attack, yeah.

Oh, yeah, Goblin Rush can be fairly damaging and isn't a crit WS. So Bio could work against that too.

[Lmnop]

Actually, no. Statistics are funny. A 1% counterattack rate does not mean you will counterattack 1% of the time. Rather, it means each time you are hit you have a 1% chance of counterattacking. This does not mean after 99 hits, your next hit will be countered. Unlike a -1% Damage Taken Earring, which is a certain -1% damage taken(though this is a very small bonus in and of itself, and would only be used if nothing better is available) with Avengers you are likely to go 0/300+ before seeing a successful counter as a direct result of Avenger's Earring. This means if Avenger's Earring is your only source of counterattack, it would, in fact, be quite worthless. If you are stacking Counterattack %+ however, and got up to say, +50% counter(Or maybe less, +25% should be adequate) Avenger's would help out much more.

I was noting somewhere earlier that even 1% isn't 1% because you still need an accuracy check but... I'm not sure I agree with this. I'm not saying you're wrong... but my understanding is that over the course of say... 5000 swings, you'll notice 1% of them were countered. Indeed, 1% means 1% and that means over the course of those 5000 swings, 1% of the attacks were negated.

So in a very large sample size, it would be 1% less damage taken (except for the accuracy check to drag down even more as said above).

But, I always seem to look at these mathy things backwards so... /shrug.

----

On another note, I was under the impression the % defense increase from defense food wouldn't be affected by defender? Rather it just uses the base defense value and calculates adding the %s together (roughly 50% in this case)? Is this not the case?

[IfritnoItazura]

Oh, no, Pecking Flurry is just your run-of-the-mill 3-hit WS. It could work against that.
I thought it's a 4-hit attack?

[Armando]

I'm probably wrong then. I'm guessing it hits even if you have 3 shadows up?

[Icemage]

I'm probably wrong then. I'm guessing it hits even if you have 3 shadows up?
Depends. It doesn't always have good accuracy, so sometimes you get a full absorb off of a fresh cast of Utsusemi.

When it does land all hits, though, it packs a wallop.


Icemage

[Armando]

I'm fairly certain it'll always take off the same number of shadows regardless of hits or misses (I did some research into the behavior of WS vs Utsusemi, it's actually quite peculiar.) If 3 shadows can stop it without getting hit, then it should be a 3-hit attack.

[Celeal]

Pecking Flurry is 4 hits attack. For more than once my NIN/WAR did has a fresh 4 shadows from Ni and that attack comes right afterward and removed all 4 shadows. Counting shadows is a major part of my NIN tanking, and I believe what I had seen.

Just like Vorpal Blade can miss a few swings, Pecking Flurry can miss a few hits too.

[Armando]

Ah, ok.

By the way, I'm not saying that it can't miss. I'm saying that the attack will always take off 4 shadows no matter what, or at least it should (just like how Goblin Rush will always take 3.) I did a lot of testing on WS vs Utsusemi, and it works in the oddest way - each WS will always take off X shadows, where X is the number of hits the WS usually has. It doesn't matter if you add extra hits with Dual Wield or Double Attack, or if you're blind as a bat and you're losing hits, it always takes off X shadows if the target has them. For example, I could do Dual Wielded Fast Blades all day and the mob would only lose 2 shadows even though I'm doing 3 hits, and it'd never take off less than 2. Likewise, I did Dual Wielded Swift Blades and I'd always take off the mob's 3 shadows, and never hit it.

The offhand hit in H2H doesn't count any more than your offhand hit with Dual Wield by the way. E.g. Combo takes off 2 shadows and Shoulder Tackle takes off 1.

[IfritnoItazura]

E.g. Combo takes off 2 shadows and Shoulder Tackle takes off 1.
I thought Combo is a 3-hit WS? That's so weird. ._.

[Armando]

Well, H2H behaves very similarly to Dual Wield - it's got an "extra" offhand hit that can't be turned off. As far as the game is concerned Combo is a 2-hit WS, plus offhand hit. It's just more practical to list it as a 3-hit WS.

[Yellow Mage]

Well, H2H behaves very similarly to Dual Wield - it's got an "extra" offhand hit that can't be turned off. As far as the game is concerned Combo is a 2-hit WS, plus offhand hit. It's just more practical to list it as a 3-hit WS.

That's interesting. I never thought about it that way before.

So, does this mean Asuran is just a 7-hit WS, or is it 8-hits with the off-hand hit thrown out, due to the 8-hit-per-round limit?

[Armando]

No clue. Someone would have to find a 7-image Utsusemi move or Blink move with 100% absorption rate and Asuran Fists the mob to find out.

[Lmnop]

Rabbit Pie - FFXIclopedia - a Wikia Gaming wiki (http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Rabbit_Pie)

* Strength +5
* Vitality +5
* Attack +25% (Cap: +100)
* Defense +25% (Cap: +100)
* Intelligence -2

Time for me to hit Meriphataud.

[Truece]

Rabbit Pie - FFXIclopedia - a Wikia Gaming wiki (http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Rabbit_Pie)

* Strength +5
* Vitality +5
* Attack +25% (Cap: +100)
* Defense +25% (Cap: +100)
* Intelligence -2

Time for me to hit Meriphataud.

Looks like a winner! I can't wait to see if they're a) affordable and b) available the next time I get asked to tank! Good find! :thumbsup:

[Armando]

Holy shit. That food looks soooooooooooooooooooo broken. It's also going to be expensive as SIN.

[Lmnop]

I don't think it's true. T.T A lot of sites are only listing it as attack+25%. Still, my sister's in the 90s for cooking and the lynx meat is selling for like 7k/stack so I'ma see if I can make some and try it out. (though the mushrooms are 7k/piece and none in stock so looks like not only will I be farming... the drop rate will be suck)

---

The more I look at it, the more I think the Defense+ is non-existent. Just the +attack stats alone are better than most meat dishes out there. Hedgehog pie is attack+18%, cap 90. Couerl Subs are attack+20% cap 75 (iirc on both of these items). 25% is not only a faster rate, but a higher cap!! this is too good to be true.

But anyway, you all understood why I brought this up. Any food that could theoretically provide a significant chunk of attack and defense could really help a War/Dnc out.

[Tomato_Kai]

... It's also going to be expensive as SIN.

Sin doesn't seem very expensive to me, that is, unless you go to Las Vegas and do blow out of a hooker's belly button. Especially if that hooker happens to be Scarlett Johanssen.

Oh! Or if you pay to urinate on Ivanka Trump while you're video taped by Michael Moore. That would be hella 'spensive too.

Yeah.

[Lmnop]

Confirmed. Adds defense. Can someone tell me how to post pictures as thumbnails? I'll send the SSs.

[Celeal]

This food is even great for a general two-hander DD, PLD/WAR or PLD/DNC tank ^^;

[nanatsu]

Holy shit. That food looks soooooooooooooooooooo broken. It's also going to be expensive as SIN.

So far it's 15K per pie on Ragnarok D:

EDIT: seems overpriced at the moment since the recipe yields 2 pies per synth.

[byte]

Hey, I haven't posted here in some years. Infact not since the game came out I think (I couldn't believe this site was still up, found it again through google). Anyway, you guys seem to be a lot more open minded about the potential of WAR/DNC tanking than some of the forums i frequent so I thought I'd share a video of WAR/DNC tanking endgame. (which I haven't seen posted here yet, suprisingly, despite all the discussion about WAR/DNC). Some of you might have seen it before.

War/Dnc vs Faust:
WAR/DNC tanks Faust

ps: sorry if this belongs in a new thread..

[Sevv]

hi byte.

[Karinya]

Holy shit. That food looks soooooooooooooooooooo broken. It's also going to be expensive as SIN.

Yeah, but you can see why they did it; existing atk and def foods are losing popularity compared to sushi.

It's going to be amazing for hybrid-build pld tanks as well as war tanks, if these stats are accurate.

This thread also makes me wonder about sam/dnc... a bit worse def and no shield, but A parry, plus seigan (35+) and third eye. No provoke, though. Meditate has a nice chunk of hate on its own (or not so nice if you're not trying to tank), which is only increased when you use that tp to dance some more...

It's almost guaranteed to be a godly solo build, but actual tanking potential would depend on whether or not you can hold hate *just* with damage and feeding your tp gain into dances.

Damn, I need to level DNC now... :)

[Celeal]

Yeah, but you can see why they did it; existing atk and def foods are losing popularity compared to sushi.

It's going to be amazing for hybrid-build pld tanks as well as war tanks, if these stats are accurate.

This thread also makes me wonder about sam/dnc... a bit worse def and no shield, but A parry, plus seigan (35+) and third eye. No provoke, though. Meditate has a nice chunk of hate on its own (or not so nice if you're not trying to tank), which is only increased when you use that tp to dance some more...

It's almost guaranteed to be a godly solo build, but actual tanking potential would depend on whether or not you can hold hate *just* with damage and feeding your tp gain into dances.

Damn, I need to level DNC now... :)

I was party as SAM/DNC (lvl 70) in Imp camp yesterday, as a DD. Haven't try as tank yet. I think Tonosama R. Ball (http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Tonosama_Rice_Ball) + AF gloves (rice ball effect) can be interesting.

Now my PLD is pretty much PLD/DNC exp. full time (merit or campaign). From my experience, PLD/WAR's Provoke, Warcry, Double Attack and WS is a huge amount of spike hate missing in PLD/DNC. In other words, PLD/DNC gives up WS in order to have Steps and Animated Flourish, and substitute healer's cure (MP) with PLD/DNC's Waltz and Samba (TP). However, PLD/DNC can toggle between tank and back-up healer effectively in TP-burn parties.

[Lmnop]

Karinya, I verified the stats. They are correct. I'm still hoping someone tells me how to make thumbnails so I can attach them that way...

Also, don't forget that Sam/dnc would still have Animated Flourish for a flash-esque hate gain every 30 seconds.

Byte, that video doesn't work for me. Currently unavailable or some such.

[Sevv]

Karinya, I verified the stats. They are correct. I'm still hoping someone tells me how to make thumbnails so I can attach them that way...

Also, don't forget that Sam/dnc would still have Animated Flourish for a flash-esque hate gain every 30 seconds.

Byte, that video doesn't work for me. Currently unavailable or some such.

The only problem that got him flack on bg with that video is the amount of support he has. A war/anything could tank faust with the kind of support he has.

[byte]

The only problem that got him flack on bg with that video is the amount of support he has. A war/anything could tank faust with the kind of support he has.
lol no because I never lost hate even though I told the DDs to go all out. I have seen plenty of PLDs which lost hate on it when there were only Tier 3 nukes and such. Maybe for the elitists on BG, 2WHMs and a BRD is zmg loads of support but in my experience it's certainly not. The COR barely did anything beyond the fist initial roll (Warrior's Roll.. which I didn't even need). The line up didn't even include a RDM ffs. I picked Faust because it's generally considered difficult to tank due to the damage taken and shadow loss, I'm sorry if some self proclaimed experts disagree with this.

Do I deny that WAR/DNC requires more support? I certainly don't and I agree it would probably need a little bit more. But is the additional hate worth it? It sure seems like it to me. I have to agree with the above poster that SAM/DNC is probably the best job combination to exploit /DNC sub. Hell, you even get a free Ridill (Soboro) and maintain some form of mitigation (Third Eye, Seigan) which Warrior barely does. This is why I'm now going to go after using Shield Skill (Which warrior has the second highest in) because that's probably the only way it's going to work with few enough support to convince the masses.

PS: I really would like to see a WAR/anything else (With similar gear to what I was able to obtain.. Sure if you have full Koenig gear, Defending ring and such, I'm sure it's no problem as /RDM for instance.) tank this with 2WHM, BRD and COR (COR can't sub /WHM because mine wasn't). Do it and post a video.

PSS: Yeah, the video seems to be down, I'll find somewhere alternative to host it.

[Sevv]

lol no because I never lost hate even though I told the DDs to go all out. I have seen plenty of PLDs which lost hate on it when there were only Tier 3 nukes and such. Maybe for the elitists on BG, 2WHMs and a BRD is zmg loads of support but in my experience it's certainly not. The COR barely did anything beyond the fist initial roll (Warrior's Roll.. which I didn't even need). The line up didn't even include a RDM ffs. I picked Faust because it's generally considered difficult to tank due to the damage taken and shadow loss, I'm sorry if some self proclaimed experts disagree with this.

Do I deny that WAR/DNC requires more support? I certainly don't and I agree it would probably need a little bit more. But is the additional hate worth it? It sure seems like it to me. I have to agree with the above poster that SAM/DNC is probably the best job combination to exploit /DNC sub. Hell, you even get a free Ridill (Soboro) and maintain some form of mitigation (Third Eye, Seigan) which Warrior barely does. This is why I'm now going to go after using Shield Skill (Which warrior has the second highest in) because that's probably the only way it's going to work with few enough support to convince the masses.

PS: I really would like to see a WAR/anything else (With similar gear to what I was able to obtain.. Sure if you have full Koenig gear, Defending ring and such, I'm sure it's no problem as /RDM for instance.) tank this with 2WHM, BRD and COR (COR can't sub /WHM because mine wasn't). Do it and post a video.

PSS: Yeah, the video seems to be down, I'll find somewhere alternative to host it.

I tanked it War/Nin with my man and ridill and dd gear with whm brd blmx4. I have 6 manned it so easy on Nin/War and Nin/Drk etc etc, Faust hasn't been hard since 04.

[Celeal]

IMHO, when testing a new job combo, it has to start from somewhere. There is nothing wrong to bring *more* support for the first run, since the true potential is not fully known without trying. With more practice and experience, maybe WAR/DNC can pull it off with less support in the next run.

[Celeal]

In the exp. party ended a few hours ago, I was tanking as WAR/DNC in Caedarva Mire. It was level 68, exp. on Imps and Jnun.

This is the story: Originally the party was intended to be DD/nin TP burn, I was asked to be the 1st Provoke at each entry point of battle. The starting party setup was blu/nin (leader + puller), drk/nin, mnk/nin, war/nin (me), sch/whm, rdm/whm. After the first few fights, well... to sum it up, it was not really *burning* the mob. At the first downtime, I ofter to switch subjob and main tank, with either WAR/BLU or WAR/DNC. The party requested WAR/DNC.... so here we go~

Without using exp. ring, with Sanction alone I got 13k exp. points tanking as WAR/DNC, with three deaths (2 due to bad links/pop, 1 due to hard-hits in a row).

This is my first time tanking as WAR/DNC.. (geez.... and I haven't tank as WAR for many levels), and no one in the party have seen any WAR/DNC tank in exp. party before. It wasn't expected and prepared for WAR/DNC tanking, but the party was functional.

I tried different gear and food:
(1) Sole Sushi + Great Axe (I was using sushi when I was started with WAR/NIN).
(2) After 1st death I switched to Couerl Sub + Great Axe.
(3) After death Sole Sushi + Great Axe again.
(4) Half of party got wiped after the bad link. During downtime I ran to the AH and myself a Hard Shield (size 3), and Sole Sushi + Shield + Axe until party disbanded shortly (was getting tired).

My opinion is the effect of shield isn't noticable for my WAR/DNC. I was using Hard Shield (size 3) ---- there wasn't much choice for WAR at my level anyway.

I think Retaliation + Great Axe really wins. During the downtime after my 1st death, the DRK posted the parser damage output of the party ... I wasn't expecting it.... DRK 37%, MNK 25%, WAR 24%, BLU 10+%, SCH 3+%, RDM 0%.

Note: I was not using Beserk at all, and most of my TP goes to Curing Waltz II spamming in order for me to stay alive.

Unlike my PLD or NIN tank, which trying to hold hate was the focus, my WAR/DNC main focus was HP. It take the majority of the RDM's MP and SCH's MP to cure me. On the other hand, hate control really isn't an issue: I wasn't really trying, and I don't need to spam Provoke or Animated Flourish.

Drain Samba does not work on Jnun (Undead), and most of my TP is used on Curing Waltz II for tanking Jnun. For Imps, it is the Drain Samba and healers Cures when JA cannot be used. Cannot really use all the DNC's tool for each fight in Imps camp, not ideal for WAR/DNC imho.

Added: My normal DD setup is Great Axe + Attack food. But with WAR/DNC, I think I have easier time with sushi + G.Axe. My 1-hand axe skill is a bit behind (I had too much fun with WAR/SAM... Orz), at level 66 WAR skill cap.

P.S. --- 3 Retaliation in a row and Double Attack in between with Great Axe is so epic LOL.

[Lmnop]

Thanks. This shows the combo can at least be effective, albeit not an ideal tank. It's unfortunate that you went to the worst camp in the game to try out this combo. But it also shows that it was bearable even in the most anti-/dnc camp in the game (jnun trivializing what would be 20-30 hp drains/swing and imps sealing pretty much everything else you have to offer).

This makes me think it could work even in Colibri camps since, as you mentioned previously, if you're using TP you have less to lose from Feather Tickle.

That parser info also fuels my belief that Retaliation naysayers are subbing NIN too much to give it an honest review...

[Celeal]

I just finished a short party session with me tank as WAR/DNC. Half of the party members was from the same party last time I tanked as WAR/DNC. I guess I got re-invited ^^;

The party layout was:
DRK/NIN x2, DRK/SAM, RDM/WHM, SCH/RDM, WAR/DNC. Caedarva Mire Imps camp level 69 party.

Note:

Using G.Axe, Attack food, Defender and stack with Berserk (turn off when needed) helps this time. The DRK's stun and /nin shadows helped a lot too. We exp. mostly on Imps and Jnun, tried very few fly. Protect from mage is needed. Imps was safe for me to tank w/ or w/o Defender, depended on party resource. For Jnun, I could manage much better with Defender full time. The fly just too much risk for me to tank imho. We did a few fly okay, but I cannot handle the link (2 fly).

We had a few Imp linked occasion during the party, but we handled them smoothly.

It was a short party, disbanded after a bad link (3 files) --- Protect not even wore off when I got KO-ed. I started with level 69 w/ 2k tnl, ended at level 70 w/ 7.5k exp.

Not much WS from me. Most of my TP is used for /DNC JA. Drain Samba II really helped (after I leveled to 70). This time I need to use more Animated Flourish that last time, most likely because of using Defender.

The parser result parsed by one of the DRK in party: DRK 28%, DRK 26%, DRK 25%, WAR 21%.