Yet another reason proving what a stupid idea merit spells were.


View (http://lvlup.tsunami-art.com/view.aspx?Rec=200)


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Way to go square, way to go... (also didn't know Notcoshield sucked that hard. Yay more fuel for the fire!)

lol thats awesome and it sucks cuz its true

ouch

Merit spells weren't a bad idea, overall. Dia III, Paralyze II and Slow II are all good and useful. Some people like Bio III too. Blind II is too random to be useful and Phalanx II is kinda weak, but that's hardly evidence that the whole merit system is bad.

Anyway, casting phalanx on the whole party doesn't matter if only one person is getting hit. *And* it uses a JA, which phalanx II doesn't. Phalanx has a duration of what, about 2 min? So to keep it up you'd be using half your stratagems just for that (at level 70 - worse if you're actually doing it at level 66 and have a 1:20 stratagem recharge). (Also not considering casting time.)

I wouldn't mind if SE adjusted the effectiveness numbers on phalanx II - I might even consider getting it, then. But since phalanx is mainly a spell that's effective against easy prey or lower, I don't see how much difference it makes whether you can cast it on other people or not.

oh no sch has aoe spells! good thing they can aoe refresh oh wait...

No, they don't have AoE Refresh. But Accession offering AoE Phalanx, almost ten levels earlier, at roughly the same potency and mana cost as a tier 2 merit? You can't say to me there's nothing wrong there.

Don't get me wrong, I like the fact that SCH can Accession Phalanx. More power to them. The the comic was right about one thing, Square was rather miserly with Phalanx 2, rather miserly with a lot of Group 2 options.

Phalanx 2 was always a lame spell. The 10 Mar 07 update was the eye opener.

I don't really see what the issue is, to be honest. It's not so very often that you want/need to cast Phalanx on an entire party (there's Salvage.. and... er... yeah, just pretty much Salvage).

That said, the MP cost of Phalanx II needs to come down. It's too expensive for what it does, considering its reduced potency compared to standard Phalanx.


Icemage

Phalanx 2 was always a lame spell.

Phalanx II is a bit underpowered, but not exactly useless. It's a counterpart to Regen; when a tank is getting hit frequently, it does its magic. No one would likely credit any of the existing Phalanx or Regen effect for winning a fight, but those spells do add safety margins.

Ever seen Byakko go feral with triple attack right after Diaga? I've seen tanks drop to less than 50 HP from that. (Also seen them drop dead, of course.) Even a Lv.1 Phalanx II can make a difference there.

* * *

Scholars probably have better use for Stratagems than putting Phalanx on tank for most fights, too. I've certainly no plan to remove my Lv.2 Phalanx II anytime soon.

Well hell, the same could be said about a lot of things. No one would credit Aquaveil for winning a fight, but it offers a safety margin. Pointing out the little things it does out of the corner of your eye is nitpicking.

The matter of it is, a SMN can do what Phalanx 2 level one can, well before Phalanx 2 is an option(granted, you'd be hard-pressed to get the SMN to spend the MP, but if the need is there...), if that same SMN really applies himself, he could possibly get the same effect as level 2. And SCH? They get the full effect right off, for the entire party, for the same MP. What better use for a Stratagem could a SCH have than giving to the entire party an effect I could only give to one for similar MP?

It's a matter of effort vs. reward, and Phalanx 2 comes up short. SCH's update just made obvious for everyone else.

See the point is You don't have to get Phalanx II

pretty much sucks for those who merited phalanx II

See the point is You don't have to get Phalanx II
Which is why I don't understand why people complain. You now just distribute those merits to something you do want/need.

Phalanx II could still be useful if people would party with less then 6 people.

The update for Scholar was vastly needed, and while I don't want to see anything taken away from SCH, I would like to see other mages get something to compensate for the fact that SCH gained so many of their trademark skills. Sure they can't nuke as well, heal as effectively or do everything as fast as other mages, but it is more along the lines that they can nuke and heal and buff while still getting their own tricks like Phalanxga and Helix spells that grinds my nerves somewhat. I am not saying that SCH should be nerfed, but rather WHM and BLM getting a somewhat higher Conserve MP trait, Phalanx II made more viable, and maybe a few perks that makes the job better at what it does, now that they are not the only job to do it.

See here's the thing - RDM and SMN bitched and bitched and bitched that they were invited to do nothing but heal. So SE said, "Hey, lets make some new jobs that are good at healing so those guys don't have to."

Hello Dancer, Hello Scholar.

Yay, now RDM can focus other things. Yay, now SMN can focus more on summoning.

But, oops, RDM and SMN don't want to build thier own PTs. And, damn, even though a smaller PT structure would welcome what they want, they still want to do ToA camps over RoZ, CoP or WotG camps. Oh well, thier loss, ToA PTs only need one mage per PT and SCH can easily fill that spot OR, hey, they can go participate in manaburns!

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Smartassing aside, I fail to see the point of this topic, other than its bitching about what other jobs can do. The fallacy is that people like Malacite sit here and thing SCH can just do that all the time. Its a nice option, but its not always what I want to do, just like I don't always want to AoE Enspells because that overwrites what a DNC's Sambas can do. If I AoE much of anything in a PT, its Stoneskin, Protect and Shell. Stoneskin alone minimizes the damage most /NIN melee would take and beneficial to tanks and the backline as well. A PLD can almost take four hits before Stoneskin goes down and that's a fair bit of MP savings in my book, its also directly beneficial to myself, negating the DoT penalty of Sublimation

To even do half of what I can do on SCH, I have to use up a JA, my options are also limited by subjobs. /RDM clearly offers SCH the best of everything at 68+, but til then, SCH has a lot of trade offs while RDM can change thier subjob to just about anything and retain the main job's functions. Only major change RDM has to make for a sub for a spell they don't have is /DRK, /NIN or /BLU. I can't AoE anything /NIN or /BLU do.

Oh, and I can be B skill Elemental or B skill Enhancing, I can't be both at the same time. In order to be effective and efficient at healing, Light Arts must be active, to be effective a nuking or Dark magic, Dark Arts must be active. I only get to decide once a minute which mode I can be.

I won't disagree that WHM, BLM and RDM deserve some exclusives, but I'm completely disappointed that people can't observe how other jobs have been updated, buffed and still act like a bitter child who didn't get what he wanted NOW.

While all that is true, a Sch's ability to stick a stronger Phalanx on the entire Party then a Rdm can on a *single* party member for almost the same MP is a bit ridiculous. It's an easy fix, make Phalanx II more potent. If Rdm had the option to make it noticably stronger then normal Phalanx cast by a Sch then it wouldn't be as big of a problem. However this could also be seen as an overpowerment to Rdm which is why the original Phalanx II wasn't as strong as the first spell.

Regardless, merit abilities and spells are a good idea imo and should be added upon and fleshed out more. The idea that we're allowed to create some customization into our very jobs itself at endgame is a good thing to me, even if cases for "optimization" still exist in those setups.

My point was about how retarded merit spells were. Why not just make rare scrolls that are hard to obtain? (Like KSNM for instance).


RDM's are always preaching about versatility, well, having all 6 of those spells would have rocked, and freed up category 2 merits for some meaningful JA's and traits. (I'm looking at YOU Protectra V... what a joke of a merit.)

Contrary of BBQ's self contrived notion that I'm somehow against the SCH update ('cause I'm not) I'm criticizing SE for their apparent lack of insight here. RDM ought to get something to balance this out, like lowering Phalanx II's cost as others have said, or maybe boosting it's potency a bit more (not taking the option away from SCH). It's hardly fair for another job to be able to do something another has to spend merits on so easily.

Contrary of BBQ's self contrived notion that I'm somehow against the SCH update ('cause I'm not) I'm criticizing SE for their apparent lack of insight here. RDM ought to get something to balance this out, like lowering Phalanx II's cost as others have said, or maybe boosting it's potency a bit more (not taking the option away from SCH). It's hardly fair for another job to be able to do something another has to spend merits on so easily.
Eh... you're under the mistaken impression that all merits have to be equally good. That's a nice ideal, but the truth is that Red Mage doesn't have the most useless merits in the game, not by a longshot.

I don't think a decrease in the MP cost of the various RDM merit spells would be out of place, and a buff to Phalanx II's potency wouldn't really hurt either - at least make it as good as standard Phalanx level 3 for the higher cost.

Even so, there are other jobs that have much more to complain about than RDM.


Icemage

Contrary of BBQ's self contrived notion that I'm somehow against the SCH update ('cause I'm not) I'm criticizing SE for their apparent lack of insight here. RDM ought to get something to balance this out, like lowering Phalanx II's cost as others have said, or maybe boosting it's potency a bit more (not taking the option away from SCH). It's hardly fair for another job to be able to do something another has to spend merits on so easily.


Puppetmaster had to merit Ventriloquy to redirect enmity from himself to the Automation or vice-versa; BST gets Snarl at 45, allowing the to move all thier enmity to a jug pet.
BST has to merit to terrorize at 75; BLU learns Jettetura (Terror) in its 40s.
COR learns Wizard's Roll in its late 50s; BLU learns Memento Mori, which is more potent and can also be AoE-ed with merits.
SMN got Noctoshield before RDM got Group II merits with Phalanx II.
BRD had AoE Regen originally, now COR and SCH and do it, too.
BRD's Toubador is bested in duration by COR's Phantom Roll.
SAM had Store TP before DNC had Reverse Flourish.

I could go on and on all day about this, pointing out job abilities that beat merits or job abilities that are comprable to others, but if you really want something to complain about, I'll point out that all of THF's worthwhile exclusives are still available under subjob and no other noteworthy damage abilities are available to THFs themselves.

Really just tired of hearing this "Woe is RDM" bullshit. Other jobs need fixes more than RDM does and I'll be disappointed in SE if they get around to fixing RDM or BRD before they get around to everyone else.

I could sit here and complain about my RNG group one merits, but I just suck it up and merit Rapid Shot and Unlimited shot anyway. I could have merrited Recycle to save some gil, but went with full Flashy and Snapshot merits instead. Not every one put merits into Loaded Deck like I did on COR, but given I didn't merit Phantom Roll Recast its probably best I extend my duration a somewhat comprable amount. Troubador and Nightengale are way more worthwhile than BRD's meritable -/+ enmity songs, shit, 90% of BRDs playlist was vendor trash to start with.

My point is that merits aren't supposed to give you the best of everything, they're there to enhance you for endgame and to customize your character to your tastes. I'm about to drop a lot of merits made for BRD in favor of maxing out what my SCH could be doing at endgame, that's a lot of work lost, but I don't mind it one bit, I don't really play a BRD anymore.

See here's the thing - RDM and SMN bitched and bitched and bitched that they were invited to do nothing but heal. So SE said, "Hey, lets make some new jobs that are good at healing so those guys don't have to."

Acctuallt SCH and DNC qere created because there are never enough healers to go around. SE invented them so parties could be self sufficent without the need of rdm/whm/smn or brd/cor for that matter. It wasnt to appease RDM's we still have haste and refresh and as far as I can remember I havent been invited to a party since 60, that hasnt come with the attached (Refresh) (Can I Have it) or more often now (Haste) (Can I Have it).

As for the OP for Phalanx 2 to be effective as Phlanxga from SCH it costs 150,000 limit points or about 8 hours @ 20K/hr. With the SCH strategem bufff essentially they only need to use at most 2 charges to keep Phalanx up entireley for the duration of the battle. Regardless if only 1 person needs it or not It is still more MP efficent then Phalanx 2.

As for the rest of the merit spells for the RDM they are decent at best, to receive a decent effect for the MP Cost you need minimum of level 2 in each of the spells, this means you can only unlock 2 abilities in hopes to get effect. They are all pretty pathetic and really arent worth time in the long run. Slow 2 is probably the most effective because it gives a gaurunteed effect. Para 2 is even more wishy washy then para 1 at an outrageous MP cost and isnt as effective as para 1 until its third point. Bio and Dia until minimum 2 points into them are hardly worth the MP cost, 30's just dosent cut it. Blind 2 is hard to say because its hard to test unless you have someone willing to take an hour or 2 for PVP but if its anything like blind 1 then its usefulness is lacking.

Basically your looking at something like this

Para: 3
Slow: 1
Dia: 2
Bio: 2
Phalanx: 6
Blind: 1

that puts you at 15 upgrades to even have a hope from a decent effect from the spells. 9 over the limit. So you need to look where to cut, you will generally keep Para and slow so that puts you at 4, now you can cut the shit outta phalanx and make it a paper shield, or you can take Bio or dia. Not to mention the average RDM at endgame wont be sticking anyspells on HNM/GODs etc, without ES, so every 10 minutes they get to use 1 spell. And they shouldnt be casting merit spells in the more prominent Merit parties (ie. colibri) as they are MP inefficent for the 45s-60s (at most) a mob will last.

Now in comparision to some other clashes that get spells, BLM for instance can unlock any number of its AM2 for a decent effect from all @ 1 point. BLM has the luxury of cramming on more gear to buff these spells up, and even without equipment these spells are still the strongest in the game. SMN can unlock each of the Meritable BP's for a similar resault to the BLM.

You can say what you want about RDM merit spells, they are genuinely ineffective and not worth the MP, or Time spent on them. Thats what it boils down to, MP efficency. Slow and Para cost a fraction of their teir 2 levels and give nearly the same effect. Bio 2 and Dia 2 are more cost effective given the length of time they last vs the teir 3's. Blind 2 is Blind, and Phalanx is a paper sheild that unless maxed out is not worth the MP, or time spent getting it.

Its not as though SCH stepped on our toes, but I think SE needs to rework the RDM merits, as they are junk considering how ineffective they are. They need to either make them more MP efficent, more potent, longer duration. Or alternitivley rework the entire Merit set for RDM, giving us things that may be more usefull, such as Bind,Grav 2; Sleep 3 repose 2; Refresh 2 Haste 2.

Acctuallt SCH and DNC qere created because there are never enough healers to go around.

I don't buy that logic for one second.

What does an efficient MP user highly capable of healing mean to other mages?

It means other mages can focus on thier specialization.

What does a melee job that can use its TP to cure frontliners mean to the WHM and mages on the backline?

MP savings and the ability to put that MP to other uses.

SCH and DNC were added to allow other jobs to focus on thier specialization provided the jobs were present in a PT. If no SCH or DNC in PT, along with no WHM, a RDM or SMN is likely going to be a main healer again. But if there's a SCH, RDM and SMN can focus on thier specializations while SCH steps forward and handles main healing. If a WHM and SCH are in PT, SCH can shift to nuking, enfeebling and other means of support WHM cannot provide.

If the intention was to make up for a lack of healers all around the game, its a goal that fails in the long run because once the main push of DNC and SCHs get to 75, those that don't want to level a healer-type job still won't level one. The goal was to add healer-type jobs to the game that freed up other jobs roles and help other jobs become more self-sufficient by being able to use DNC and SCH as subjobs.

Really just tired of hearing this "Woe is RDM" bullshit. Other jobs need fixes more than RDM does and I'll be disappointed in SE if they get around to fixing RDM or BRD before they get around to everyone else.

Well were getting tired of you comming in here thinking you know what the RDM community needs or wants or feels, you gave up on RDM, remember when it was level 65 (IIRC). You dont know what RDM needs/Wants or how its members feel. Just as much as I dont know why a RNG dosent pull, or a COR dosent use corsairs roll. You look at RDM from the outside, you see what some do in a battle and carry it over to a personal opinion that it works good. FACT BRD can only play BRD songs, no other job has this luxury. FACT COR is only one who can use rolls no one else has this Luxury. You always praise your COR and BRD jobs and refer to them without fail. However outside of subable traits to 37, they have and will always have their own set of abilities that no other job can use. RDM on the other hand outside of its useless merit spells shares spells with every mage job in the game (ex. BLU/SMN). Our only native spells outside of refresh are all usable while Subbed. However SCH can AoE them all, specifically in this arguement phalanx.

As much as you want to consider everything is all hunky dory with RDM, quite frankly it is not. Its by no means as bad off as say PUP, or BST, but its not as perfect as you will it to be. RDM has been pushed into the roll of a one trick pony, we are effectively Haste/Refresh, no better then BRD. Yet we have access to many other aspects, that we can't use. In that effect yes RDM is flawed. It is to apealing to take the job from WHM/SCH for curring because of it MP longevity. Of course you probably dont mind because you like having a RDM on the backline bailing you out on COR or BRD. WHM can't Spare MP to sleep links etc you may get. RDM may not be flawed to you because you like the rest of the community see it working perfectly well in its pigeon hole. In that respect it is not. However I bring up again, you have never quarterbacked a merit party on RDM, you have never been responsible for Kiting a God, or HNM, you don't know jack all about endgame RDM besides what you have seen others do. You don't know what our abilities do despite what you read. So you can take your Special Case BRD/COR and go back to your little corner, because RDM does have flaws, but because you dont have a 75 RDM with craptacular merits, YOU DONT KNOW JACK.
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SCH and DNC were added to allow other jobs to focus on thier specialization provided the jobs were present in a PT. If no SCH or DNC in PT, along with no WHM, a RDM or SMN is likely going to be a main healer again. But if there's a SCH, RDM and SMN can focus on thier specializations while SCH steps forward and handles main healing. If a WHM and SCH are in PT, SCH and shift to nuking, enfeebling and other means of support WHM cannot provide.

Thats all fine and dandy but let me check the last time I ws in a group with more then 1 healer, hmmmm, oh right pre ToA camps. Your not getting a SCH/WHM/RDM into the same group unless your pre toa in which case you wont be having group 2 merits. So your logic is flawed. In late game parties its RDM onry, and RDM's more and more say Main Heal no thanks, SMN's more and more say main heal no thanks. So that leaves DNC and SCH to fill in the curative roll. (Considering the community has shunned WHM i dont blame them for not partying)

I could go on and on all day about this, pointing out job abilities that beat merits or job abilities that are comprable to others, but if you really want something to complain about, I'll point out that all of THF's worthwhile exclusives are still available under subjob and no other noteworthy damage abilities are available to THFs themselves.

Really just tired of hearing this "Woe is RDM" bullshit. Other jobs need fixes more than RDM does and I'll be disappointed in SE if they get around to fixing RDM or BRD before they get around to everyone else.QFT.

RDM has been pushed into the roll of a one trick pony, we are effectively Haste/Refresh, no better then BRD
Then stop taking invites for that. Say {Aht Urhgan} {camp} = PT{no thanks.}
Go to a different job for merits, make a pty so you can enfeeble or campaign.

YOU DONT KNOW JACK.
Ummm....i'm gonna used what someone used against me and say, do you even read what you type?

Does every thread in here devolve into what everyone else feels RDM does or doesn't deserve nowadays? Has it really come to that?

If you feel RDM doesn't deserve anything, or doesn't need anything new, then you have nothing to add here, as simple as that.

Other jobs are far more needing of fixes? Well bully for them! Let those other jobs discuss the fixes they need. But after the surgeon is finished with the internally bleeding patient, the one with the broken leg still needs tending to.

You feel RDMs are bitchy? Well damn then, just what is bitching about the bitching?




All this should just remind the devs(if it's even brought to their attention), the tricky juggling act that is job balancing. They came along and introduced a new job--it had no place. They gave it a bevy of new features to increase it's value, and now the same features sported by older jobs are wildly inefficient by comparison.

There are three potential fixes, really:

Scenario A: Leave SCH's version as-is, and simply equalize RDM and SMN's versions' effort to the reward involved, namely dropping the MP cost for Noctoshield, dropping MP cost and scrolling(or lowering merit requirements) for Phalanx 2. That way SCH's version is still good, SMN and RDM's version cost what they are worth.

Scenario B: Leave SCH's as-is, equalize RDM and SMN's reward to the effort, namely buffing the potency of Noctoshield and Phalanx 2 making the potency visibly better than Accession/Phalanx, accordant to the MP, effort in getting such.

Scenario C: Nerf SCH's version(It should be noted I'm firmly opposed to this scenario).



What amazes me is this strange myopia Square exhibits with respect to old jobs(pre-ToAU), not named SAM and WAR. They bear this reticence in turning around and re-tooling previous jobs, and it's certainly not because those old jobs were perfect. They are behind on something you almost certainly have to do every time a new job is introduced. RDM and SMN have been paying out for the Phalanx effect for years. SMN has always been paying more for less product, as has RDM with Phalanx 2. With the 10 Mar update, it's just become apparent.

But then, it's still early yet. There's still time for them to look back and fix their mistake.

I don't take invites for ToA personally but I am one of 750+ RDM's on my server. The Fact is 6/6 of our group 2 merits blow ass (regardless of where you camp or what you do). You can have 2 at most that will function on a barely par level with their teir 1 counterparts (in terms of MP efficiency, time and effect).

I do read what I post and the fact is I can post my opinion on matters such as teir 2 merits and phalanxga vs phalanx 2. Its not whining as BBQ would put it, it is stating fact. I take it upon myself to defend the community against BBQ's constant "I hate when RDM boo-hoo". BBQ has no personal experience with Group 2 RDM merits, yet comes off as if he/she does. Look at BBQ's jobs he/she always compares alongside RDM, BRD/COR/RNG all single purpose jobs, none of which offer the utility of RDM. None of which share spells/abilities with another job. BBQ does not understand why this post was made only assuming its another whine thread. Its assumed because as a BRD he/she does not have another job that can more effectivley use its spells, as a COR he/she does not have another job taking the rolls and using them more effectivley, as a RNG he/she does not have another job with an equal amount of damage output through RA. BBQ quit lvling RDM @ 65 for the reason i assumed long ago, he/she didnt appreciate how the community, viewed, or used RDM. However having quit RDM BBQ expects everyone else to want to play it the way he/she did not want to.

I know full well the potential of our merits and how it is when another job can take one of your trademark spells and use it more effectivley than you. I can also sympathize for the WHM's who have been shot in the arm, in terms of DV, SCH is now more effective this way too. BBQ instead tries to focus on the fact that we bring this to light, through a humerous comic, and assumes its a bitch fest. Every RDM endgame topic BBQ has something to say inregards to how it is wrong, or whiney, however BBQ has no idea how it works because he/she hasnt been there. He/She has BRD/COR/RNG not RDM. He/She quit RDM and swears by backline RDM only (my assumed reason for the quiting). Personally I am tired of BBQ thinking she/he knows how the job works at endgame, she/he has never experinced outside of what ppl have said, and what he/she has seen people do. I dont go into BRD/COR/RNG rooms and spout off about stuff I dont have experience in. I dont go into the BRD/COR/RNG rooms and cause disruption in a topic because it goes against the opinion the community has on said job. (ie. RDM/DNC) I dont flame people because they share a different opinion on something other than the "Norm". Even in BBQ's rants about his/her job's he/she gets flamed and defensive like everyone else. Cor who dosent ever use Corsair roll because its not his/her problem if they dont have an xp ring or sanction. A RNG who never pulls because it takes away from his/her damage. A BRD who never casts Madrigal because its nothis/her responsibility to provide an ACC boost. Yet BBQ comes into various forums and berates people because they want to melee, or not cure. In a recent post of mine (Post Update My Opinion Changed) I told of how I didnt main heal and instead SC,MB,Enfeeble and didnt use Haste/Refresh. I was called lazy and a leech because I let the SMN do all that, BBQ is a hypocrit, it is ok from him/her to shirk his/her, job duties, but when another job does it, it is wrong, and gimp. When BBQ post something regarding my job like any other person I will call him/her on it. BBQ quit RDM because he/she didnt like the duties of the job, the workload etc. But expects all RDM's to do said duties. While at the same time not doing What a BRD/COR are designed to do, party support through buffs, (including Madrigal, and Corsair Roll), and not pulling on RNG (which always has a rng weapon/WS). He/she claims it is whining, however I think he/she is afraid of losing the one job that carries him/her to the next merit point.

Scenario A: Leave SCH's version as-is, and simply equalize RDM and SMN's versions' effort to the reward involved, namely dropping the MP cost for Noctoshield, dropping MP cost and scrolling(or lowering merit requirements) for Phalanx 2. That way SCH's version is still good, SMN and RDM's version cost what they are worth.

Scenario B: Leave SCH's as-is, equalize RDM and SMN's reward to the effort, namely buffing the potency of Noctoshield and Phalanx 2 making the potency visibly better than Accession/Phalanx, accordant to the MP, effort in getting such.

Scenario C: Nerf SCH's version(It should be noted I'm firmly opposed to this scenario).

Personally, I'd use approach A for Noctoshield and approach B for Phalanx II, though not necessarily to the extents suggested. That's the least disruptive approach, and makes the two abilities better for different things. Note that I would not mind if SCH was still the best at this in the end; they just shouldn't be the best by this much. -- Pteryx

It really wasn't about being made to main heal and not being able to melee - I could get those things from any other job I levelled, but about how I enjoyed playing the game.

I like a certain amount of varied activity, RDM felt too reptitive.
I like to solo without a lot of things tying soloablity down, like buffing.
I like jobs with Job Abilities, RDM doesn't have many.
I levelled it for a static, just to help friends. I got screwed over.
I knew that at that time, for endgame, BRD would completely overshadow RDM and jobs I might actually enjoy, I didn't like that idea, so I shifted focus jobs I enjoyed and tossed both aside.

I shouldn't have to explain my reasons for quitting at all, none of that diminishes what I know of RDM, why its invited and how the game at large works by function, balance and community.

Most of the griping about RDM comes a lack of knowledge/understanding regarding balance and community. RDMs want to have thier cake and eat it to while every other job has to make sacrifices they don't want to make just to make EXP PTs work.

No one forces a RDM to merit Phalanx II and its still worth having even if a SCH or SMN can AoE it because those jobs might not always be there to do it. Relying on one job to do a particular thing is the inherent problem of the game (or it was).

RDM, BRD and WHM's heads grew really large because they were requisite to making most PTs work. WHM got what was coming to it in ToA, now RDM and BRD are getting thier turn - you're no longer requisite to making a PT work, PTs can surivive and do well without them.

Dunno about you, but I like that RDM, BRD, COR, SCH, BLU and SMN being able to dispel more than I just liked having RDM and BRD being able to. It used to be that way - it sucked.

The real issue is preserving what distinguishes a job without harming the uniqueness of the job, but community needs must also be considered.

Lack of independance was a huge issue for many jobs. /DNC solves a lot of those issues and /SCH helps jobs that could solo with /WHM solo a bit better at higher level. /SCH also covers CORs and BRDs for MP when Evoker's or Ballad is down and they're buffing melees. DRG/SCH gets absolutely no downtime now.

And yet, RDMs think SCH, BRD and COR should be collectively punished just because Refresh doesn't stack with Sublimation. I think that's really stupid, because Refresh stacking with Sublimation not only overpowers RDM, but affecting how sublimation works with other forms of Refresh hurts COR and BRD, they have no means of recovering MP (other than Sanction/Sigil) when Evoker's/Ballad are down. And I can say from experience that most RDMs don't bother refreshing those two, much less hasting either.

Hate to say it kids, RDM is not longer the belle of the ball, but then, neither is bard. You'll have to work for invites just like everyone else since you're no longer requisite.

RDM, BRD and WHM's heads grew really large because they were requisite to making most PTs work. WHM got what was coming to it in ToA, now RDM and BRD are getting thier turn - you're no longer requisite to making a PT work, PTs can surivive and do well without them.

I was hoping you would say something like this.

So essentially your saying now that SCH is around that RDM, WHM arent needed to keep the party party running, kinda like when i said

Acctuallt SCH and DNC qere created because there are never enough healers to go around. SE invented them so parties could be self sufficent without the need of rdm/whm/smn or brd/cor for that matter

Boy im glad that whole statement defied logic as you put it.

And yet, RDMs think SCH, BRD and COR should be collectively punished just because Refresh doesn't stack with Sublimation. I think that's really stupid, because Refresh stacking with Sublimation not only overpowers RDM, but affecting how sublimation works with other forms of Refresh hurts COR and BRD, they have no means of recovering MP (other than Sanction/Sigil) when Evoker's/Ballad are down. And I can say from experience that most RDMs don't bother refreshing those two, much less hasting either.

I personally could care less about sublimation stacking with refresh. It give me the option to refresh or not. I hvae been in 6 parties now with a" sublimator" and all 6 Times I didnt cast refresh on them and the party ran fine. All sublimation has done is cut down my work load and is alowing me to focus on other thins I can be doing to better help the party.

Hate to say it kids, RDM is not longer the belle of the ball, but then, neither is bard. You'll have to work for invites just like everyone else since you're no longer requisite.

I can agree with you here and its about time, I am frankly sick and tired of the free loading RDM, BRD, COR who milk their "free Ticket" to parties. Hopefully this will thin the heard a little bit and seperate the players that give us a bad name from the players that acctually strive to accomplish the most out of their job, and do everything they can to make the party work.


As for my shots against your reason for quiting RDM, I appologize, I repeatedly stated it for effect. The fact is none of your jobs have had abilities they worked hard to get stripped by a job that can do it better, cheaper, and sooner. So you dont know what its like dumping 4-8 hours into 1 spell only to have SE come along and give it to someone else. Which is he main basis of the topic. As for your continual assault against RDM and SMN, you BRD's are probably the most whiney, bitchfest class in the game but we can take it to PM's if you want to discuss that.

Personally, I'd use approach A for Noctoshield and approach B for Phalanx II, though not necessarily to the extents suggested. That's the least disruptive approach, and makes the two abilities better for different things. Note that I would not mind if SCH was still the best at this in the end; they just shouldn't be the best by this much. -- Pteryx Ah, a Scenario D, it would seem.

I like it, but I'd be happy with Scenarios A and B, too.

Personally Id Prefer that Para/Slow/Blind 2 became spells between 60-75 and were replaced By Gravity, Refresh 2(a self target for 5mp/tick), and meteor (or some other type of High Damage non elemental Nuke we could call our own)

Phalanx 2 is good in the endgame things since you wont ever have a SCH in the tank party where a rdm would be, they will be put with the BLM's for the weather benefits. As far as for parties, it will be rare that a SCH and RDM will be in the same party where merits are involved, and if that is the case it is one less spell we need to cast.

(or some other type of High Damage non elemental Nuke we could call our own) No. Just no.
since you wont ever have a SCH in the tank party where a rdm would be, they will be put with the BLM's for the weather benefits. Now for a moment, I thought to myself "well, why wouldn't you keep a SCH in the tank party? It's not as though there'll be only one in the alliance." Then I thought "actually, yeah, there just might be."

I think it's time S-E took another look at intra-alliance dynamics, maybe relaxing the limits on who is targetable with what in an alliance. If you have a BLM party, wouldn't you want the BRD or RDM in place of the SCH, for Refresh? Which would be more important then, weather effects or mana? It would be beneficial to be able to target certain spells and abilities outside one's own party, but still within your alliance.

That way, if the 5-BLM party needed the RDM, they still wouldn't be shorted on weather effects, since there'd still be a SCH somewhere in the alliance hooking them up. Meanwhile, said SCH might be in the tank party, making good with the Phalanxga/Stoneskinga.

I can't really see myself using Accession+Phalanx unless it's an exp party where the front line people don't have Utsusemi and don't have a tank. Even then, Stoneskin has the priority when it comes to Stratagem usage.

In situations where I would use Phalanx II on RDM, typically there are no melee DDs in the tank party, and the DDs are supposed to respect the enmity threshold set by the tanks. My SCH isn't there yet, but I can easily imagine things I'd rather do with Stratagems instead of putting Phalanx on tanks or DDs.

SCH/RDM may get the stronger Phalanx on others, but it's less practical than RDM's Phalanx II in practice. Phalanx II is a nice little bonus for a RDM who wants it; it's not the end of the world SCH can do an AoE version by blowing a JA. No more than BRD's and COR's AoE refresh effects should make RDMs cry in distress.

It certainly isn't anything worth complaining about.

* * *

If I have to complain about anything, it'd be about other people using Sublimation making my Refresh bounce off. Now, that's really annoying.

well if you look at all past ff games the RDM type always had 1 type of damaging magic that the others couldnt cast. Hell Id even go for Demi or something that dealt 5-10% of a <T>'s hp based from our enfeebling skill. I mean our merits fucking suck bottom of the barrel mish mash of crap.

SCH/RDM may get the stronger Phalanx on others, but it's less practical than RDM's Phalanx II in practice. Phalanx II is a nice little bonus for a RDM who wants it; it's not the end of the world SCH can do an AoE version by blowing a JA. No more than BRD's and COR's AoE refresh effects should make RDMs cry in distress.

It certainly isn't anything worth complaining about.

* * *

If I have to complain about anything, it'd be about other people using Sublimation making my Refresh bounce off. Now, that's really annoying.

Wow, backwards much?

SCH's AoE Phalanx is BY FAR more efficient than our own, because it lands on EVERYBODY. For us, we have to cast, wait for recast, cast again for the same effect. Not only that, giving other people our Phalanx subbed in the first place would be far more potent than us giving anybody a Phalanx II.

Bringing BRD and COR in to the argument is meaningless, since their own buffs fall in an entirely different category of their own.

Meanwhile, I don't see why Red Mages everywhere don't rejoice over the addition of Sublimation: all it does is gives us one less mouth to feed per person that uses the ability. It honestly doesn't get any sweeter than that lessening of our workload! The fact that it doesn't stack with Refresh is more a blessing than anything, and, like I said, since Rolls and Songs are entirely different things on their own, more dedicated Mages can still get Refreshes from them. It's a win-win situation!

I can't really see myself using Accession+Phalanx unless it's an exp party where the front line people don't have Utsusemi and don't have a tank. Even then, Stoneskin has the priority when it comes to Stratagem usage.

In situations where I would use Phalanx II on RDM, typically there are no melee DDs in the tank party, and the DDs are supposed to respect the enmity threshold set by the tanks. My SCH isn't there yet, but I can easily imagine things I'd rather do with Stratagems instead of putting Phalanx on tanks or DDs.

SCH/RDM may get the stronger Phalanx on others, but it's less practical than RDM's Phalanx II in practice. Phalanx II is a nice little bonus for a RDM who wants it; it's not the end of the world SCH can do an AoE version by blowing a JA. No more than BRD's and COR's AoE refresh effects should make RDMs cry in distress.

It certainly isn't anything worth complaining about.

* * *

If I have to complain about anything, it'd be about other people using Sublimation making my Refresh bounce off. Now, that's really annoying.
So you're telling me you wouldn't save up charges to stack Stoneskin and Phalanx on your team? RDMs have been doing it to great effect for years, I see no reason why they should be mutually exclusive now.

And really, what would be so much better for the tank party that you would say "I'm busy with this now, the RDM has lolPhalanx 2, right?" Tell me what else your SCH could possibly be doing other than improving the tanks' defense, or giving the DDs in that party a manner of taking capability.

If Phalanx 2 a "useful little spell?" Yeah, with emphasis on the little. In the same way that Aquaveil is useful. But the cost is not little at all. We pay a great deal more to do less. It's like SCH, SMN, and RDM walking into a bar, each of them putting down $5, and the SCH getting Guinness from the tap, RDM getting Natural Light, and SMN getting Pabst Blue Ribbon.

Phalanx 2 is good to some degree, I'll grant you, but before--and especially now--not worth meriting.

Not worth meriting.

If it were as accessible as every other spell 1-75 at a reasonable MP cost, then I'd give it a fair shake. But it's not, so I don't.
well if you look at all past ff games the RDM type always had 1 type of damaging magic that the others couldnt cast. Hell Id even go for Demi or something that dealt 5-10% of a <T>'s hp based from our enfeebling skill. I mean our merits fucking suck bottom of the barrel mish mash of crap. Which FF games were those? RDM has historcally been middle of the road in it's spells, with the option to pick a path and become more wizardly or warrior-like. In what game was that different?

We're not WHM--we shouldn't heal as good, and as such, we're not BLM--we shouldn't nuke as good as one.

There's other things they can do with merits than add something as inappropriate as another nuke.

Hey common now there is nothing wrong with PBR, I did a 3 week bender last summer with PBR alone its a damn fine brew.

As for the nuke thing it wasnt implied to just give us a nuke, it was more on the emphasis to focus on things we call our own. Sure we are the masters of enfeebling but those could easily be targeted 60-75 when we get teir 3 nukes, pro and shell (thats it iirc). The only spell outside of our cruddy merits that is acctually our own is Refresh @ 41. Now we are also the masters of enhancing (hold your whm has -ra arguement) possibly providing an addition spell in the merits that was an enhancing spell for rdm only, perhaps something like Wall (pro/shell combo) or reflect (reflects a spell back at the mob). Or focus more on our trade mark RDM only enfeebles, gravity for one. Perhaps give us another one stop for instance, can be a stun like spell on a similar timer.

All I know is Teir 2 enfeebles are shit at best, Phalanx 2 is nice with 5 levels but that leaves you none for anywhere else. I think a possible restructure of merits should be in order, that or some additional RDM only spells in the higher levels of the game 60-75 (wall, reflect, stop, demi) hell Ill take a self targeting spell that changes me into a moogle. I just want something to call my own.

So you're telling me you wouldn't save up charges to stack Stoneskin and Phalanx on your team?
Stoneskin, yes, but probably not Phalanx.

Scholar is very flexible, but chained to the recast of Arts and Stratagems. Any full-time use of Accession has to be justified; Protectra and Shellra are a definite; two JAs, and lasts for 30 minutes. Stoneskin to cover AoE damage or occasional DD going over enmity line, sure, plus it'll save curing MP on the tank.

Blowing a Stratagem every three minute for AoE Phalanx, which only the tank really get use out of, though, is more questionable. How much does the tank need it? Would the party/alliance benefit more from using the Stratagem in some other way? In short, what is the opportunity cost?

For the RDM, it's the same idea: What is the opportunity cost? Is there something better a RDM can do with the 42 MP and 3 second cast time? (Obviously, no JA is involved for RDM.) Is it worth it for the duration?

On the balance, it's more worthwhile to a RDM who has Phalanx II to use it than for a SCH/RDM to keep up Phalanx-ga. Of course, Phalanx II isn't for every situation, but it's certainly nice for the likes of Faust or Byakko.

RDMs have been doing it to great effect for years, I see no reason why they should be mutually exclusive now.
For soloing? Sure, I stack Stoneskin and Phalanx and Blink and Aquaveil all the time.

In heavy toe-to-toe alliance fight? Phalanx II for tanks. No Phalanx for me--not worth the MP or time.


And really, what would be so much better for the tank party that you would say "I'm busy with this now, the RDM has lolPhalanx 2, right?" Tell me what else your SCH could possibly be doing other than improving the tanks' defense, or giving the DDs in that party a manner of taking capability.
If you limit yourself to damage mitigation, sure, you're right. Then again, SCH is much more flexible than that, isn't it?

Regen II-ga
1/2 MP cost on Tier IV nuke.
1/2 time Raise II
Stoneskin-ga
Gravity-ga
Bind-ga
Aspir-ga (for quick MP restore)

(Probably left out quite a few things.)

Whether a SCH should use Accession+Phalanx depends on whether doing more of the other things with Stratagems would be more useful.


Phalanx 2 is good to some degree, I'll grant you, but before--and especially now--not worth meriting.

Not worth meriting.
It depends on what you do, really. Keep some perspectives; there's nothing you have to merit. Or level to 75. It's a game, and only a game...

If Phalanx II just make you mad, don't touch it. It costs you no gil or time to leave it alone.

* * *

Phalanx II is working out for me, since my Sky/Limbus LS is full of RDMs who have other things merited. Having it makes me useful, in a slightly different way, so I don't have a real complaint against it.

Now, would I recommend other RDMs to merit it? That depends on what they do and what they want to do.

Opportunity cost is the real question, again. Would spending those limit points on other merits be better for the person? Spending time other than on meriting be more fun? Etc. Each person has to answer that for himself.

Heck, the "real" reason I merited it was because a friend who I thought will become the main tank said it'd be nice to have--good enough of a reason to grind the limit points for me.
______________________________
Wow, backwards much?

SCH's AoE Phalanx is BY FAR more efficient than our own, because it lands on EVERYBODY. For us, we have to cast, wait for recast, cast again for the same effect. Not only that, giving other people our Phalanx subbed in the first place would be far more potent than us giving anybody a Phalanx II.
It's great, when everyone needs Phalanx.

Now, tell me, when does everyone need Phalanx? :biggrin:

In the context how the game is played, it really only amounts to a marginal advantage over RDM, and only when there's nothing better to use a Stratagem for.

Let me put it this way: as someone who actually has Phalanx II merited (Lv.2), I'm more amused than miffed.


Bringing BRD and COR in to the argument is meaningless, since their own buffs fall in an entirely different category of their own.
If AoE Phalanx is great in your book in part for being AoE, then we can compare, well, comparable buffs from RDM that's single target vs. from other jobs which are not.

Granted, it's not a perfect comparison, but the point is that just because another job is capable of AoE version of certain type of buff doesn't put RDM out of business.

* * *

Honestly, way too much useless anger and angst in this thread. It's not even a new issue; we knew SCH can Accession+Phalanx pretty much right from the start.

Again though you're missing my point BBQ, which you inadvertently helped and that is that SE, for all their efforts has dropped the ball on a number of areas. We've got a lot of jobs stepping on each other's toes now.

Oh yeah and so what if BLU can AoE Memento Mori? That's still a 10-minute JA at best where as COR can do it with little to no trouble and at fairly reliable potency. It's not the same at all as a SCH being able to spend 1 stratagem to AoE any white magic buff when @ 70 they will be gaining charges once every minute. Never mind what a complete slap in the face the Addendums are to WHM BLM and RDM.

Now, for the record I actually do like the addendums, but in light of this said mages could use a few more unique spells or abilities to even things out. Like, how about Haste II or a healing spell to remove Amnesia for WHM? Some kind of offensive party buff for BLMs would be great (I'm looking at you, Steel!) and as for RDM, well, apart from soloing aspects I see no good reason not to give them that 3rd MAB trait now that SCH can out nuke them.

RDM dosent need an MB trait, we need MAC traits, id much rather MDB, MAB traits we currently have to be replaced by MACC traits. We are not designed to be a damaging job, No amount of MAB will help us if we have the all mighty crap acc that RDM's have.

I agree with the WHM having amnesia curative spell that move is nasty as hell and chances are, there will be no rings. Of course you could always pull the same card as a BRD/COR/RNG I know and say that its their responsibilty to bring tools themselves not the job that can help them.

All in all the dynamics of RDM are pretty sound and its not really flawed, it just needs some perks to bring its other useful traits back to the game. That may mean an increase in spell potency a rework of merits etc. I strongly prefer a merit reworking. To offer some more RDM only spells in the MID-Late game. Personally when I was leveling RDM the only thing I looked forward too was my excalibur (on teir 4 only need 50 mil gil to finish ^^). I think more jobs will make it through the grind if there were more spells offered at those levels. It may also help to bring enfeebling back to the game since NIN can overwrite our teir 1's.

lvl 63. Slow 2 (potency of a base merit skill)
lvl 66. Para 2 ( " ")
lvl 69. Blind 2 (" ")
lvl 72. Dia 3 (1 minute duration)
lvl 75. Bio 3 (1 minute duration)

all spells RDM only

and in their place add some more usefull merits

Sleep 3 (same duration as sleep 2 ) each additional increases ACC
Stop (based off enfeebling magic same effect as stin) increase length of stun
Gravity 2 (increased gravity effect) each additional point increases effect
Wall (single target Shell/Pro same effect as teir 3) additional points increase effect
Demi (deals damage proportionate to base enfeeblings skill 100% at maximum of 10% to mob minimum 5%) increases damage % by 10 of enfeeb skill (27.6 at 75)

basically how I see demi working, is like this

276(enfeebskil) + 5% <t> HP

so on a 10000 hp mob that would equate to

500+276 or 776

adding 27.6 for each extra skill. (damage will lessen per use in reflection of mobs HP)

additionally you can use enfeebling merits to pump this to a higher out put.

allternativley on a 1000 HP mob you can only deal 100 damage then 90 then 80 and so on.


Sleep 3 will be used as a more accurate sleep 2


Wall will be used as a cheap way to buff the party or self with a maximum defense boost to equate a pro 4 shell 4.

Keeping phalanx 2 as a 6th and final group 2 merit.

In this you will have the option of using lesser effective merits (ie. sleep 3/wall)
or focus on more effective merits such as demi stop and gravity

Im just spit ballin, personally I wouldnt like new spells but a direct fix to the shitty merit spells we already have seems like a waste of effort since the overall use of these spells compared to other jobs group 2 merits is highley limited as is.

So basically Itazura, you're telling me that it's not worth it for your SCH/RDM to Accession/Phalanx on the entire party for 44 MP, turning a tank into an even better tank and DDs into potential tanks, and that somehow years of successful soloing have not proven the value of stacking AoE Phalanx and Stoneskin?

Meanwhile, meriting Phalanx 2 for 3 levels at 120k experience points toward the effort, all to spend 42 MP per person for less damage mitigated than the original spell and equal to what SCH/RDM offers... that's totally worth it.

Is that what you're trying to say? I'm just trying to understand here.

Again though you're missing my point BBQ, which you inadvertently helped and that is that SE, for all their efforts has dropped the ball on a number of areas. We've got a lot of jobs stepping on each other's toes now.

Would you like it better if no jobs could refresh themselves but RDM? It used to be that way. Would you like it if BRD and RDM were the only dispellers? It used to be that way. Would you like RDM and WHM to be the only viable healers in the game? It used to be that way.

I'd rather not go back to the way things were just for the sake or some hackneyed concept of "balance." RDM and BRD were forced on PTs for a lot of things and now they're no longer a neccessity and players are are starting to realize that they can move forward and level without these jobs just fine.

Oh yeah and so what if BLU can AoE Memento Mori? That's still a 10-minute JA at best where as COR can do it with little to no trouble and at fairly reliable potency.

You're making my point for me. The function is similar, but not an exact duplication of what Wizards Roll does, which ultimately wins out for the duration it is active. A lot of the abilities and merits I pointed out have a similar function, but those functions aren't duplicated exactly by another job, they differ.

It's not the same at all as a SCH being able to spend 1 stratagem to AoE any white magic buff when @ 70 they will be gaining charges once every minute. Never mind what a complete slap in the face the Addendums are to WHM BLM and RDM.

But the choice is in fact the tradeoff here. To even be doing AoE Erase, for example, I have to activate two strategems for that to happen and have Light Arts active to even do it.

SCH can't do everything its effective at all the time, that's the whole catch and what distinguishes its job from others - it has to choose its specialization at any given time. That's the balance of the job.

Yes and no BBQ. How often do you find yourself flipping between LA and DA repeatedly in the same fight?


I agree that more jobs being able to do the same thing is a good thing in general, but there are certain boundaries that shouldn't be crossed. Using RDM's tier 2 merits as an example again, let's look at the possible (or at least what was at the time) damage done by this;

Dia III: Okay, that's fine. RDM gets Dia before everyone else anyway.

Bio III: WTF? They gave them a spell that BLM's get first, and don't even consider DRK (or now SCH)

Slow II: Well, there went any possibility of Time Mage.

Blind II: Pointless, stupid spell. Should have just been a scroll.

Phalanx II: Already talked about this.

Paralyze II: Again, should have just been a higher level scroll that was RDM only.


I really don't agree with making so many spells exclusive. Most jobs are differentiated by their abilities and not so much their magic. I just don't think it's a good idea. Make more scrolls, and make them difficult to get (how about Relic spells? Shit SCH already has an AF spell.)


Then there's the general lack of abilities for RDM (being a mage and all). This is where a melee while casting trait would have been awesome, or maybe something like Crimson Seal that would boost the potency of your next enfeeble? (similar to how QD boosts spells only stronger)


This goes double for the absolute shit some of the other jobs got like Protectra V and Martyr (Honestly wtf? Devotion is good, but sacking HP to give HP? Niche much?)

It depends on the PT, I don't always affix myself to Light or Dark Arts.

If I really need to keep Dispel up, I'll accept the higher cost and longer casting time of white magic just to be able to have the spell available through Dark Arts and Addendum: Black. It wouldn't be completely beyond reason to nuke from Light Arts, but it would be much less effective than the reverse.

But then Regen II just duration based anyway and some white magic cures would still be passable with D skill. It would cut deeper into my MP, but it really depends on the damage the PT is taking if I'll stay in that mode or not.

speaking of bio 3 200 drark skil ftl

Skill only effects damage for landing the effects.

So basically Itazura, you're telling me that it's not worth it for a SCH/RDM to on the entire party for 44 MP, turning a tank into an even better tank and DDs into potential tanks, and that somehow years of successful soloing have not proven the value of stacking AoE Phalanx and Stoneskin?

It's 44 MP and a job ability. Don't forget the JA part and the implication of recast timer!

Of course the 44 MP isn't an issue, compared to Phalanx II's cost. The real question is, can the SCH find a better use for that shared job ability timer? The answer is "Yes, usually."

Now, for DDs without Seigan or Utsusemi, and when there's no real tank, then Accession+Phalanx can be the best way to use the Stratagem. That's probably the only scenario I'd endorse the use of it, though. Can't really think of another common situation, outside of oddball activities like attempts to melee-burn Faust or something. (Is that even possible? I don't have much experience with 'zergs'.)

By the way, I pretty much said Phalanx II isn't good for all situations, but it's worth reiterating--there are plenty of instances where keeping Phalanx from any source on a tank isn't worth any MP or JA. The effect of Phalanx is just not that useful unless a person keeps getting hit by physical attacks. Don't be too dazzled by SCH's AoE trick. At least, not this one.


Meanwhile, meriting Phalanx 2 for 3 levels at 120k experience points toward the effort, all to spend 42 MP per person... that's totally worth it.

Is that what you're trying to say? I'm just trying to understand here.
That's a blatant distortion of what I've written.

My position is fairly nuanced; in situations where tanks do need Phlanx, and both RDM and SCH are available, is the alliance better off with RDM casting Phalanx II or SCH/RDM using Accession Phalanx?

The answer is that most of the time, I'd rather the RDM do it, if the RDM has the spell.

Obviously that precludes situations where everyone's getting hit by physical attacks constantly. When and if that is the case, of course, SCH/RDM should consider putting Phalanx on all, since it'd be impractical for a RDM to do so with Phalanx II.

* * *


Let's check out one real example where Phalanx on the tank is good, and see what a SCH can do if added to the mix.

Kited Ix'Aern (DRG) fight

Tank Party:
PLD/NIN
WHM/BLM
RDM/BLM

BLM Party:
BLM/RDM
BLM/RDM
WHM/BLM (dual box'ed)
RDM/BLM
BRD/WHM

This Ix'Aern hits like a truck, so PLD/NIN kites.

At the start of the fight, Gravity lands well, and lasts a long time. Phalanx? Not needed at all, by anyone but one the BLM/RDM's. (The BRD and one of the BLM are responsible for kiting the three Wyverns.)

The PLD/NIN runs around the perimeters of the room, while the mages DoT and BLMs nuke. However, Gravity will start to last for shorter and shorter duration, and becomes more and more difficult to land. Eventually, it'll wear off almost instantaneously even when it lands.

When Gravity becomes iffy is when Phalanx becomes handy for the PLD; don't think anyone would dispute that.

The RDM in tank party has Phalanx II, but let's add a SCH/RDM to the alliance; how would you use the Scholar?

Scenario 1:
SCH/RDM joins the tank party, and keeps up Accession+Stoneskin and Accession+Phalanx.

This isn't too useful at the start of the fight. With Gravity landing well, it's actually fairly low risk for the PLD to take a hit or two, recast Utsusemi, run away, then cure himself with enmity gear to generate a positive CE blance.

Mid fight, when PLD has the Ix'Aern pretty much secured, while Gravity becomes inconsistent, Stoneskin and Phalanx definitely be helpful. Except, the PLD is still running around in a circle, so landing Stoneskin or even Phalanx with Accession can be tricky.

Can coordinate with the PLD to stop moving for it, but without blowing Celerity, too, it'd be rather dangerous for Stoneskin (and maybe even Phalanx). Besides, that'd be 3 Strategems for two buffs if done that way, for the benefit of the PLD, at the same time adding to the danger by making PLD stop running at SCH's buff times.


Scenario 2:
SCH/RDM leaves the PLD to the care of WHM and RDM, and kites the Wyverns x3 with Gravity-ga and Bind-ga.

This takes the pressure off BRD and BLM, neither of which are terrible well suited for kiting those unsleepable Wyverns. Of course, this means the SCH would be away from the main fight a good deal of time, and won't be applying Stoneskin or Phalanx to the tank much, if at all.


Scenario 3:
The SCH/RDM is inexperienced with kiting and the layout of the place, so elects to play as a nuker in the BLM party. Instead of just applying helix, uses Addendum: Black stratagem as needed to toss out tier IV nukes, and abuses Parsimony to reduce MP cost.

Given the original alliance had only one BLM full time and one BLM part time (since he's kiting), SCH as nuker will substantially shorten the fight time.

Remember the building resist to Gravity? And the nasty Wyverns x3 fluttering all over the place? By shortening the fight time, the SCH would contribute substantially to the PLD and the alliance's safety, without ever casting Phalanx or Stoneskin on anyone else.

Not to mention getting things done faster so people can go eat dinner or go to sleep.

* * *

That was not a contrived example; I did Ix'Aern (DRG) last night with that exact setup, sans the Scholar. As I am leveling SCH (when time permits), I was thinking about how exactly I would help out in that fight, if on SCH.

Acession+Phalanx definitely is not the way to go, especially when a RDM has Phalanx II; it's quite easy to find much better things to do with SCH's Stratagems.

My preference would be Scenario 3 (nuker) until I get used to the layout of the place, then move to Scenario 2--SCH/RDM is tailor made for kited crowd control.

Even if stuck in Scenario 1 for some reason, shouldn't the SCH offload the Phalanx to the RDM, who can apply Phalanx II while the PLD is running full out?

Which of three scenario would you pick? And, if you're the SCH, would you ask the RDM to take on Phalanx for the tank or use Accession for that?

* * *

It really isn't that Accession+Phalanx is bad per se--it's just that a SCH really do have much better things to do with the Stratagems most of the time.

* * *

Now, do I think Phalanx II's potency can be boosted a bit without wrecking the game balance? Sure. But, that's a very far from saying Phalanx II is worthless.

In any case, it's not anything to get upset about; Phalanx II is a merit option which few people would ever demand a RDM to have. If you don't want it, don't merit it.

In any case, it's not anything to get upset about; Phalanx II is a merit option which few people would ever demand a RDM to have. If you don't want it, don't merit it.
Phalanx II is probally the only merit II spell I'll even consider maxing out just because I'm in a tank party majority of the time for events. Lets not forget, its both magic and physical resistance ;3
It saves plds from Genbu, destroyer of worlds!

Seriously though, I've barely see any sch on seraph to really raise the whole AoE phalanx from sch/rdm to be concerned with. But I am tempted to level it on Aka just to see how would sch/drk's aoe effect for the absorb spells work for myself ;x

Last statement for this post, this thread is starting to beat a dead horse on older issues.

So basically Itazura, you're telling me that it's not worth it for your SCH/RDM to Accession/Phalanx on the entire party for 44 MP, turning a tank into an even better tank and DDs into potential tanks, and that somehow years of successful soloing have not proven the value of stacking AoE Phalanx and Stoneskin?
Years of successful soloing have indeed proven the value of stacking Phalanx and Stoneskin... against easy prey mobs. Maybe decent challenge if you load them up with enfeebles.

Against an even match, you're going to have to be PLD/RDM to be able to rely on phalanx and stoneskin to take hits in the face and keep fighting. RDM main just doesn't have the def. Against anything higher than that, if a RDM is soloing it, they're either sleepnuking or dot kiting, probably subbing nin too.

Against an exp mob, a tank will get hit for 80 or so and some DDs will get hit for 150-200 (more if berserk). Phalanx (II or Accession) is not going to close that gap.
Meanwhile, meriting Phalanx 2 for 3 levels at 120k experience points toward the effort, all to spend 42 MP per person for less damage mitigated than the original spell and equal to what SCH/RDM offers... that's totally worth it.
You can cast it any time you want, without interfering with whatever else you're doing (aside from the MP, which isn't that much anyway). That's not true for SCH.

How many times are you going to want to phalanx more than 1 or *maybe* 2 people anyway? AoE Phalanx is about as useful as AoE ice spikes (which SMN has had forever, but does anyone care? heck no.)

As for SCH's aoe stoneskin - aren't they better off efficiency wise using aoe regen 2 instead?

guys why would s-e wasting time fixing your phalanx II when he could be fixing your melee! -.-

guys why would s-e wasting time fixing your phalanx II when he could be fixing your melee! -.-made me lol.

And to answer, they're more likely to fix that and give us melee =p

Mag, your post regarding the "alternate options" was actually decent.

BBQ, you like complaining so much, you often lose sight of the main discussion.

Honestly, this conversation is a lot more petty than it should be.

I really don't see what all the crying is about.

Does anyone really, really, REALLY want or need SCH for Accession + Phalanx instead of the host of other (much more useful) abilities they have?

Sure, it's an option, but how often would it actually see use? Chances are, even in a full-on endgame tank party, you're not working with more than 3 tanks at most.

Let's look at that tank setup, shall we?

It's usually:

Tank
Tank
Tank
Support
Support
Healer

If the tanks are Ninjas, the Supports tend to be Bards and/or Corsairs, and the Healer tends to be a Red Mage or White Mage.

If the tanks are Paladins, the Supports tend to be Bards, Red Mages and Corsairs, and the Healer tends to be a White Mage.

Let's say you replace the White Mage with a Scholar. He saves your RDM some MP for Phalanx II, but also has to spend Accession charges to manage Protectra IV and Shellra IV, unless you've got someone outside with a large amount of MP flow (like another RDM) who's going to be spending the better part of 1000MP every 30 minutes to keep these buffs up on the party - assuming they don't get dispelled/tanks get KO'd sooner.

Is this really the best use of a Scholar? I doubt it. Not when they can use those charges to become a quite effective nuker, or excellent crowd controller with Graviga or Bindga.

With a Phalanx II RDM, though, you don't give up anything to get access to Phalanx on your tanks. Sure, it costs a little extra MP, but there's a reason why RDM have the best MP flow in the game.


Icemage

Years of successful soloing have indeed proven the value of stacking Phalanx and Stoneskin... against easy prey mobs. Maybe decent challenge if you load them up with enfeebles.

Against an even match, you're going to have to be PLD/RDM to be able to rely on phalanx and stoneskin to take hits in the face and keep fighting. RDM main just doesn't have the def. Against anything higher than that, if a RDM is soloing it, they're either sleepnuking or dot kiting, probably subbing nin too.

Against an exp mob, a tank will get hit for 80 or so and some DDs will get hit for 150-200 (more if berserk). Phalanx (II or Accession) is not going to close that gap.

Haven't Rdm been able to directly solo gods and other super HNM through the combined usage of Stoneskin+Phalanx+Utsu+other def boosts?

See, the thing is, Phalanx, on top of Stoneskin, noticably extends the amount of time Stoneskin is able to stay up. And if you're fighting an AoE using mob...which is just about most mobs in this game, shadows alone aren't always enough to prevent damage. But having a full strength Stoneskin+Phalanx stacked up every two minutes is pretty useful in my eyes.

And there's also the fact that the AoE Sch version costs 2 MP more then Phalanx II while being more potent from the beginning. And a 1 minute recast on a JA timer isn't really all that much of a limiting factor. If you want limiting, ask Whms with their 10 minute recast timer on a JA that has to be overwriten by their trait just to AoE -na spells.

As a melee, I can see why Rdm dislike the way this is set up. It takes something that was unique to Rdms and does it far better then they ever could.

Haven't Rdm been able to directly solo gods and other super HNM through the combined usage of Stoneskin+Phalanx+Utsu+other def boosts?

See, the thing is, Phalanx, on top of Stoneskin, noticably extends the amount of time Stoneskin is able to stay up. And if you're fighting an AoE using mob...which is just about most mobs in this game, shadows alone aren't always enough to prevent damage. But having a full strength Stoneskin+Phalanx stacked up every two minutes is pretty useful in my eyes.
When using Utsusemi, you don't use Phalanx usually. The damage mitigation is relatively minimal for the MP expenditure and time spent casting.

And there's also the fact that the AoE Sch version costs 2 MP more then Phalanx II while being more potent from the beginning. And a 1 minute recast on a JA timer isn't really all that much of a limiting factor. If you want limiting, ask Whms with their 10 minute recast timer on a JA that has to be overwriten by their trait just to AoE -na spells.

As a melee, I can see why Rdm dislike the way this is set up. It takes something that was unique to Rdms and does it far better then they ever could.
There's no denying that Phalanx II is somewhat underpowered. It really should at least match Phalanx I at level 3, and not cost nearly double.

Even so, I don't see any convincing arguments in this thread about why you would actually want a SCH to be spending their time casting Phalanxga.


Icemage

Against anything that uses AoEs that can't be blocked by utsu, against mobs that are too fast for Utsu to block against, for those fights and missions where it's not just the entire PT killing a single target and moving to the next and really, I see no reason not to cast it on a tank because Phalanx does help them take hits.

It may not be viable to keep it up 100% of the time, but there's no reason not to cast it, especially if you're also using SS because combining that with Phalanx is a very potent boost.

But in the end, it's not so much the 'use' of Phalanxga, but more the fact that a Sch can take one of Rdm's most unique tricks and do it much better. At least with Diabolos the MP cost was higher and the effect was lower (which also needs to be fixed imo). But Sch use similar MP to cast a stronger version and their only limiting factor is a 1 minute recharging JA.

Against anything that uses AoEs that can't be blocked by utsu, against mobs that are too fast for Utsu to block against, for those fights and missions where it's not just the entire PT killing a single target and moving to the next and really, I see no reason not to cast it on a tank because Phalanx does help them take hits.

It may not be viable to keep it up 100% of the time, but there's no reason not to cast it, especially if you're also using SS because combining that with Phalanx is a very potent boost.

But in the end, it's not so much the 'use' of Phalanxga, but more the fact that a Sch can take one of Rdm's most unique tricks and do it much better. At least with Diabolos the MP cost was higher and the effect was lower (which also needs to be fixed imo). But Sch use similar MP to cast a stronger version and their only limiting factor is a 1 minute recharging JA.
That's all besides the point, though. Aside from the single case of early Salvage rounds, where else is the 20-some-odd damage absorbed by Phalanxga going to be a tangible benefit, particularly at endgame, when most things are hitting for at least 200 a hit for non-tanks? lolAbsoluteVirtue?


Icemage

People grind, struggle, bite, scratch and claw their ways into items that give +1 or +2 stat boosts to a single stat just to optimize their efficiancy. And any sort of Dmg reduction is highly prized as being wanted and useful. I see no reason *not* to cast Phalanx on as many people as you can as long as it's not interfering with your overall performance as a job. Most people here say they'd rather cast Stoneskin-ga and that has a limited amount of HP saved, so how is casting Phalanx-ga, which ultimately does something very similar a bad thing? Especially when you can combine them and increase both buffs usefulness.

And again, it's not about actually casting the spell, it's that Sch's can do it far better then Rdm. They get it earlier, they cast it with the same amount of MP and it's far more MP efficient and potent then what a Rdm can do. And all of this with the only downside being that you need to use a charge on a 1 minute recast JA. Even if it's being used just to help the tank it's still better then having a Rdm do it.

That's not the point (to me anyway) Icemage. The point is SE is stepping on job's toes more and more and in ways that are fairly harsh. Yes, SCH has to choose which set of skills to use at any given time but the fact that it can nuke almost as well as a BLM and at the same time cast dispel is stepping on RDM's toes a bit, while Addendum: White is a steeltoed boot kick in the balls to WHM.

What's next, PLD (finally) getting provoke or a JA that essentially does the same thing? I'm all for spreading out abilities, but SE's gotta be more careful IMO. We're slowly creeping towards the point of nixing jobs into niche scenarios.

I see no reason for a SCH to buff the party with their charges, then wait for the tanks to build hate, and use their charges offensively.

It's the beauty (and curse) of being a SCH.

Years of successful soloing have indeed proven the value of stacking Phalanx and Stoneskin... against easy prey mobs. Maybe decent challenge if you load them up with enfeebles.

Against an even match, you're going to have to be PLD/RDM to be able to rely on phalanx and stoneskin to take hits in the face and keep fighting. RDM main just doesn't have the def. Against anything higher than that, if a RDM is soloing it, they're either sleepnuking or dot kiting, probably subbing nin too.

Against an exp mob, a tank will get hit for 80 or so and some DDs will get hit for 150-200 (more if berserk). Phalanx (II or Accession) is not going to close that gap.While not completely accurate, in a vacuum, you're correct--but it only drives my point further.
If indeed Phalanx just doesn't matter that much, then yeah, the SCH has better things to do with his Accession.

But wait! If that's the case, then the RDM too would have better things to spend on merits.

You can cast it any time you want, without interfering with whatever else you're doing (aside from the MP, which isn't that much anyway). That's not true for SCH.

How many times are you going to want to phalanx more than 1 or *maybe* 2 people anyway? AoE Phalanx is about as useful as AoE ice spikes (which SMN has had forever, but does anyone care? heck no.)

As for SCH's aoe stoneskin - aren't they better off efficiency wise using aoe regen 2 instead? The minor interruption and charge you lose on Accession seems like a minor loss to extend the spell to the entire party. That's not just the tank, but anyone in the party with any tanking potential that doesn't involve shadows or Evasion.

If AoE Phalanx is really that useless, then a targetable Phalanx 2 is no different. And not worth meriting.
As a melee, I can see why Rdm dislike the way this is set up. It takes something that was unique to Rdms and does it far better then they ever could. That's not the issue. That was NEVER the issue.

The issue is a standard having been re-established that must be addressed. In the past, it was Phalanx. Cheap, very good for it's price. Then came Noctoshield. Hefty price, weaker effect, but that was okay because it was giving an effect normally limited to one, to an entire party.

Same with Phalanx 2. Hefty price, inferior effect, but what you were paying for was the ability to give others an awesome effect normally reserved for yourself.

And along comes SCH, the 10 Mar update, and pays the same as RDM, minus merits, for an effect better than Noctoshield. At a lower level, no less.

The developers came and changed the standard with the update. Before they said "you must pay a hefty price to cast this on others," then said "oh, SCH doesn't have to." The value of RDM and SMN's equivalent spells must be addressed.



Not a single one of you here would go to a store with your buddy, put $2 down for a single can of beer, then watch your buddy get the same brand(or better) for the same price... in a six-pack.

If you're gonna try and defend RDM's Phalanx 2 over SCH's version, just be honest: you just like the way the spell looks, or you don't wanna go back and re-merit something else.

personally ive got 1 merit in each thing and dont care, they all suck monkey dick

personally ive got 1 merit in each thing and dont care, they all suck monkey dick
Yes, but we've already established you hate playing RDM. Actually, I'm shocked you even bothered spending merits on Phalanx II since it doesn't benefit your melee damage in any way whatsoever. :P

Any RDM who doesn't realize how powerful Slow II is doesn't deserve much consideration when speaking on the topic.

That's not the point (to me anyway) Icemage. The point is SE is stepping on job's toes more and more and in ways that are fairly harsh. Yes, SCH has to choose which set of skills to use at any given time but the fact that it can nuke almost as well as a BLM and at the same time cast dispel is stepping on RDM's toes a bit, while Addendum: White is a steeltoed boot kick in the balls to WHM.

What's next, PLD (finally) getting provoke or a JA that essentially does the same thing? I'm all for spreading out abilities, but SE's gotta be more careful IMO. We're slowly creeping towards the point of nixing jobs into niche scenarios.
I do think SCH is creeping into a few too many niches with this update, but the presence of Phalanxga via Accession is one of the LEAST intrusive. Addendum: White and Addendum: Black are both much more threatening to WHMs and BLMs respectively than Accession/Phalanx is to RDM.

For that matter, the presence of Sublimation hurts RDM much more than Phalanxga.

To get back to what I was saying though, chances are, at end-game you've got a Red Mage in your tank party; adding Phalanx II doesn't affect your job balance or strategies much - it's just a nice extra.

To facilitate Phalanxga via Scholar + Accession, you have to juggle your job mix around and really think about what you're including in your tank party. I could see a setup like NIN NIN SCH WHM BRD BRD being useful in this context, but under those circumstances you wouldn't want a Red Mage in the Scholar slot anyway.


Icemage

I see what both Malacite and Icemage are saying now.

I don't feel like explaining it, but I understand both viewpoints.

[Let me add that Addendum is so awesome, for the SOLE fact that SCHs get Stona.]

Honestly, I think that SE looked at the current meta-game and decided to build these jobs from the group up instead of applying them to niches later, and SCH, DNC and PUP are all performing well.

People wanted to type-cast Dancer into a tanking role, but SE effectively fizzled that concept [lol, btw].

The problem with the older jobs is that if SE does any more "nerfs" the community at large is going to be mad... So they have no choice but to upgrade everyone.

I'm interested in what SMNs think about SCH AOE buffing ability...

Are RDMs (and only a select few, at that..) the only one's complaining?

Honestly, look at SCH as a whole... It can, roughly, perform about 85-95% as capable as the main jobs, and it can do it while being 50-60% more efficient.

We should be friggin loving life right about now.

I think BBQ, in the midst of one of his rants - that was targeted at people he deems "Princess," which is only the very outspoken majority, btw - made a good point that the only "potential" competition that will be born will be from people who are excited about mage jobs in the first place and are going to level it.

Out of my 4 irl friends that play on my server, all of them agree that SCH is an awesome job, but none of them are going to level it.

They want the glitz and glamor without the struggle of leveling. [Hence, why they love talking about all the "cool shit" (rolling my eyes) that I can do as a RDM, but none of them want to level it.. No.. They'd rather just pay for and play as Renarudo when I'm taking one of my many breaks in the game.]

So don't expect a mass exodus of melee to level SCH, because only mage-minded people will be doing that.

Honestly.

RDMs have nothing to complain about.

We won't be losing a spot end-game, because the SCH that you see in the alliance usually was already coming to the event as a WHM, BLM, RDM, etc in the first place...

And now they are still able to perform just about as efficiently as they were, but with more versatility.

A SCH that's in the tank pt is going to be expected to perform healing/buffing duties, whereas a SCH in the BLM pt will act accordingly as well.

They just need less baby-sitting.

Good Lord, RDMs should be ECSTATIC.

What's wrong with you people?

Ice Mage your on crack. seriously man stfu for once.

Para 2 sucks
Slow 2 sucks
Phalanx 2 sucks
Blind 2 sucks
Bio 3 Sucks
Dia 3 sucks

I have already stated in order to get one to be worth a damn you need to put multiple merits in it, level 2-3 for it to be worth any thing. That leaves you 2-3 points that can go to make another spell slightly less shitty. Also if you look back at my posts I say slow is the only one that is worth it @ 1 point because it gives you a 100% effect of slow no variables just slow. The rest are over priced and ineffective.

Phalanx 2 is Highley effective if its used properly, that means putting it up prior to WS's. etc and is one of the most useful tools I have as RDM. However the arguement is not the use of Phalanx or other merits its that SCH can do it more effectivley. It dosent hurt as as you continually think is what is being said. It steps on our toes. At least SMN's was high MP cost for less effect, instead SCH wins in both aspects.

As for sublimation hurting us, your out of your mind. Sublimation dosent effect RDM in any way what so ever. If you get into a party with a sumbimator you simply ask refresh or sublimation, problem solved.

As for addendum, again your of your rocker, with the exception of teir 4's SCH gains nothing it couldnt gain from subbing whm or blm. Not to mention it runs on the same timer as you say makes using Phalanxga unreasonable.

SCH can use phalanxga further proving our teir 2 merits are shit. BLM can out DoT our BIO3 with BIO2 further proving our merits are shit. Unless you have 330 enfeebling your not sticking slow or para or blind without ES, making our group 2 merits shit. Thats the only negatives RDM has is our god awful shity group 2 merits. Hopefully SE just gets rid of them entirely, for the love of god they suck ass. Almost every other job gets a respectable amount from their group 2 merits, RDM we get a whopping kick to the balls.

Ice Mage. You going to close this thread too because people disagree with you, maybe ill post up my test numbers from my para vs para 2 to show you that the teir 2 abilities suck ass.

SCH is the new support job, if I see a sch in my group even think about dropping a teir 4 before giving party ss/blink/phalanx they are getting booted as fast as a rdm who dosent enfeeble or refresh.

/popcorn

<--- After all this time still hasn't found a single reason to spend merits on group II spells. :rofl:

The SCH things is aggravating, but it only shows (yet again) how half-assed RDM group II merits are. Nothing new really. :thumbsup:

*cough*

Level both RDM and SCH to 75.... and be happy ^^;

/end-of-hijack

I lul'd at the comic, but I don't see the big issue. Honestly I'm glad someone else can AoE a stronger Phalanx than me, now I can toss those 2 merit slots into a stronger Para 2 and Blind 2 instead of spending a decent-sized chunk of MP on a spell that in all honesty isn't super useful.

Although F%^@^@$%@%$!@#$ at me redoing my Group 2's for the 3rd or 4th time, lol.
______________________________
*cough*

Level both RDM and SCH to 75.... and be happy ^^;

/end-of-hijack

That's the path I was taking on it as well, hell if anything I'm psyched that I'm going to be pimped as shit as SCH since I already have capped skills and a bunch of Enhancing/Enfeebling/Elemental gear from RDM.

I really find this whole thing kinda childish.

"SCH can Phalanxga, so meritting Phalanx II isn't worth it"

Following this logic:


DRG's Angons are stronger than Acid Bolts, so RNG and THFs shouldn't use Acid Bolts, ever.
WHM can cure better, so RDM should never cure, ever.
MNKs are better with H2H, so only MNKs should use H2H.
Elvaan have the most HP and VIT, so only Elvaan should be PLDs.
BRD and COR AoE refresh, so RDM never should Refresh.
SMN and BRD can hastega, so RDM and WHM should never haste.


Really, some of you RDMs make my brain hurt. If you don't have Phalanx II at all, you lose out the tank PT to the RDM that does. SCHs and SMNs aren't always going to be around to AoE Phalnanx.

If it helps you perform better, merit it, stop crying about the cost of the spell, RDM is still the most MP-efficient job of this game. SCH is just a close second now. If you don't merit Phalanx II because you have a SCH that can offer the Accession version, that makes sense; but if you're not going to level SCH at all and refuse to merit Phalanx II for your RDM just because SCH and do it better, I think you're a moron.

Following this logic:
DRG's Angons are stronger than Acid Bolts, so RNG and THFs shouldn't use Acid Bolts, ever.
WHM can cure better, so RDM should never cure, ever.
MNKs are better with H2H, so only MNKs should use H2H.
Elvaan have the most HP and VIT, so only Elvaan should be PLDs.
BRD and COR AoE refresh, so RDM never should Refresh.
SMN and BRD can hastega, so RDM and WHM should never haste
Fixed in blue, and i like what is green ;3

Shut up Aka.

I stopped caring.

Fixed it before you did :P

/popcorn

/join

I'm not high enough level to even worry about meriting anything yet... but as my friends keep pointing out, is there any real reason to get huffy over a game that we have no control in what content they add? :) It can be debated into the dirt but in the end some people will like the spell and some will be aggrivated that their merits blow.

Fixed it before you did
/cry.

While not completely accurate, in a vacuum, you're correct--but it only drives my point further.
If indeed Phalanx just doesn't matter that much, then yeah, the SCH has better things to do with his Accession.

But wait! If that's the case, then the RDM too would have better things to spend on merits.
All RDM merit spells are worthless in merit, as it is currently done. Every single one of them. If you have MP to burn you might bother casting Dia III, but don't fool yourself into thinking it's actually worth the cost.

Personally, I don't have a problem with that; meriting just so you can merit some more is pointless and silly anyway. The point of merits is to help in HNMs and endgame instances (dynamis, limbus, salvage etc.) Most of the RDM merit spells actually *are* good for that - situationally, even phalanx II. (But the most situationally narrow ones won't be bought and used because of the overall cap. If you could max them all, it might be worth the effort to do so, but it's definitely not worth giving up Slow II or Paralyze II for Blind II... or IMO, Phalanx II.)
The minor interruption and charge you lose on Accession seems like a minor loss to extend the spell to the entire party. That's not just the tank, but anyone in the party with any tanking potential that doesn't involve shadows or Evasion.
Which is usually just the tank. WARs and SAMs can have good def, if they gear for it, but they generally don't.

Anyway, I don't think you've played SCH much if you think a charge is a "minor loss". Stratagems define the job. Having more is great. Having less is bad. Having less because you used them for something that doesn't provide much benefit in the first place is stupid.
If AoE Phalanx is really that useless, then a targetable Phalanx 2 is no different. And not worth meriting.
Well, I don't have it merited, and don't plan to. But at least it doesn't require burning JAs to cast. And since you rarely care about more than 1 target and *very* rarely care about more than 2 targets, having to cast it separately on every person really isn't a big deal.

I don't like it mainly because the effect is so small compared to Para/Slow (although the fact that it's not RDM unique does enter into it a bit). But it isn't subject to resists like they are, so there's arguably a role for it, and RDM certainly has the most convenient and useful version for 1 or 2 targets.
The issue is a standard having been re-established that must be addressed.
As a paladin, this is where I have to go laugh my ass off. You want a standard being re-established? Try having the standard amount of damage for a tank to take in a party become ZERO. And the MP cost necessary to achieve that? Also zero. Oh, and they do more damage than you do too.

Phalanxga probably doesn't even make the top ten list of potential balance problems. It's certainly nowhere near notorious problems that have been unadjusted for years.

This is also a job that doesn't have haste, and their refresh substitute isn't as good as the real thing and can't be cast on others. They have to be good at SOMETHING. AoEing more often than most jobs is one of those things.

Are RDMs (and only a select few, at that..) the only one's complaining?

Good Lord, RDMs should be ECSTATIC.

What's wrong with you people?
Not all RDMs. Just a few prima donnas out there. Most of us who play mage jobs, red mage in particular, realize that all of the various mages have their own role at endgame.

I'd classify Scholar has "sufficiently unique" to have earned its own niche at this point. It might be just a shade too good, in the same way that red mages might be a shade too good, but not game-breakingly so.

And yes, as you say, the people who hate mage jobs aren't going to magically run out and level Scholar just because it's good. Scholar is too complex for a lot of people to enjoy; you really have to drill down and manage your timers and resources once you get to level 30+ because while you can do any one thing well at any one time, you can't do all things well at all times.


Icemage

Ice Mage your on crack. seriously man stfu for once.

Para 2 sucks
Slow 2 sucks
Phalanx 2 sucks
Blind 2 sucks
Bio 3 Sucks
Dia 3 sucks

I have already stated in order to get one to be worth a damn you need to put multiple merits in it, level 2-3 for it to be worth any thing. That leaves you 2-3 points that can go to make another spell slightly less shitty. Also if you look back at my posts I say slow is the only one that is worth it @ 1 point because it gives you a 100% effect of slow no variables just slow. The rest are over priced and ineffective.
You said, and I quote:

personally ive got 1 merit in each thing and dont care, they all suck monkey dick
Slow II doesn't "suck" by any stretch of the imagination. It may or may not be worth 3 levels, but the ability to overwrite any Haste effect in the game is pretty useful.

Bio III doesn't "suck" either. It, too, has its uses (Dynamis monk-types using Hundred Fists, Tiamat/Jormungand putting up Mighty Strikes, various and sundry other NMs like Faust who like to hit you a lot). And you can write a novel on how useful it is against Byakko.

Dia III is good when you're trying to meleeburn something like Kirin. Unless you'd care to argue that melees can easily reach the attack cap against Kirin, or even something more innocuous like King Vinegarroon.

Phalanx II's primary usage is against super-fast or otherwise unavoidable hits. Charybdis, Tiamat, Jormungand, Ouryu, anything using Hundred Fists, etc. Or even something innocuous like the chigoes in the Saving Private Ryaaf Assault.

Paralyze II is somewhat stickier than regular Paralyze, and seems to proc a bit more often against higher level targets when stacked to level 3, but it's not a night and day difference.

Blind II is the only one on the list that's truly unimpressive in most circumstances. Basically only useful if you're small grouping with a THF/NIN or other evasion tank who can't cast Kurayami: Ni.

Are any of these spells earth-shatteringly useful? Certainly not, aside from the requisite 1+ level of Slow II, but still a far cry from being worthless.

Phalanx 2 is Highley effective if its used properly, that means putting it up prior to WS's. etc and is one of the most useful tools I have as RDM. However the arguement is not the use of Phalanx or other merits its that SCH can do it more effectivley. It dosent hurt as as you continually think is what is being said. It steps on our toes. At least SMN's was high MP cost for less effect, instead SCH wins in both aspects.
You just got done trying to convince us that Phalanx 2 "sucks". So which is it? :P

As for sublimation hurting us, your out of your mind. Sublimation dosent effect RDM in any way what so ever. If you get into a party with a sumbimator you simply ask refresh or sublimation, problem solved.
Or I can just go out and merit without a Red Mage any more since DD DD DD COR BRD + WHM/SCH or SMN/SCH is pretty much just as effective nowadays.

Or the fact that I don't need RDM in my tank party any more on WHM since they're basically there to cast Refresh and Haste - and they can do the Haste thing perfectly well from outside the tank party.

Sure, it's just a flesh wound... right?

As for addendum, again your of your rocker, with the exception of teir 4's SCH gains nothing it couldnt gain from subbing whm or blm. Not to mention it runs on the same timer as you say makes using Phalanxga unreasonable.
*cough*bullshit*cough*

Nice try Mr. I've-Never-Levelled-Scholar-And-Don't-Know-How-It-Works
Raise II. Reraise II. Stona. Pretty big additions from Addendum : White, considering that the only other competition White Mages had previously for Stona was the Spring Water blood pact from Summoners.

SCH can use phalanxga further proving our teir 2 merits are shit. BLM can out DoT our BIO3 with BIO2 further proving our merits are shit. Unless you have 330 enfeebling your not sticking slow or para or blind without ES, making our group 2 merits shit. Thats the only negatives RDM has is our god awful shity group 2 merits. Hopefully SE just gets rid of them entirely, for the love of god they suck ass. Almost every other job gets a respectable amount from their group 2 merits, RDM we get a whopping kick to the balls.
Would you like some more cheese for your whine? There are a number of other jobs that got far more useless crap than Red Mages got (Ninjas, for instance).

And if you think the primary reason to cast Bio III is the damage over time, you're even more clueless than I had thought.

Ice Mage. You going to close this thread too because people disagree with you, maybe ill post up my test numbers from my para vs para 2 to show you that the teir 2 abilities suck ass.
Well, I wouldn't expect any decent test numbers on Paralyze from you. You're usually too busy swinging your Enhancing Sword to actually wield a weapon that might actually help your spell potency.

SCH is the new support job, if I see a sch in my group even think about dropping a teir 4 before giving party ss/blink/phalanx they are getting booted as fast as a rdm who dosent enfeeble or refresh.
Sigh. I don't even know why I bother.

Addendom: Black only consumes a strategem charge once - and only once. It lasts for about an hour after activated.

Feel free to kick those Scholars if you like. I'm more than happy to see a Scholar nuking in a party these days, particularly at end-game, especially since Phalanxga really isn't all that useful, and there's other jobs that do Stoneskinga and Blinkga without having to turn to my Strategem-restricted Scholar.


Icemage

If half my PT is /NIN (which is just the norm, I'm not advocating it), why would I even waste time with Phalanx and Blink?

If a /NIN melee briefly pulls hate, Utsusemi and Stoneskin should cover him more than enough for a round of fighting. Additionally, that Stoneskin grants me the benefit of resting while Sublimation is active.

SCH may very well be one of the most situational jobs placed in this game. There are times /RDM would be better, other times /WHM or /BLM more appropriate. If my main function is healing, then /WHM saves me a strategem charge most of the time since I can get most of Addendum: White's benefits under subjob there. This means I can remove the need to do Accession > Cure III or IV and instead do Rapture > Curaga II.

If a DNC is present, I don't want to tread on what they do, so I gotta shelve /RDM's Enspell novelty. If I have a WHM in PT, I don't need to tread on what they do completely either, so /RDM or /BLM would be more optimal for that situation. If I have a SMN, I can opt to play main healer and let them do the avatar melee thing while also putting up Aerial Armor or Earthen Ward, again meaning I don't really have to use Accession.

For times i need to do WHM-ish things, but I'm not /WHM, Accession covers those things well. I don't have to do AoE Phalanx/Blink/Stoneskin as a rule, that's just silly and robs me of three charges off the bat.

Addendom: Black only consumes a strategem charge once - and only once. It lasts for about an hour after activated.
In my experience, it'll last until Dark Arts wears - up to two hours.

>. > for once I agree 100% with BBQ there in that SCH is beautifully well crafted as a versatile mage. Perhaps even more so than RDM (minus the melee aspect)

<--- After all this time still hasn't found a single reason to spend merits on group II spells. :rofl:

The SCH things is aggravating, but it only shows (yet again) how half-assed RDM group II merits are. Nothing new really. :thumbsup:


It is not that you don't have a reason it is that you are too lazy.

It is not that you don't have a reason it is that you are too lazy.

How exactly did you come to that conclusion? It will be a very interesting read. :rofl:

Maybe he was just kidding? Crazy concept, I know.

Irony is a beautiful thing.

If only people misused it and hit behind it less.

How exactly did you come to that conclusion? It will be a very interesting read. :rofl:

Because you never would merit with me on kujata ; ;

In my experience, it'll last until Dark Arts wears - up to two hours.
Or 30 seconds, if that's how soon you have to change to Light Arts. Arts changing is the real restriction on addendum duration.

And since you can't access Accession without Light Arts, you're not going to be dropping T4 nukes and phalanxga at the same time.

Non-SCH look at all SCH's new spells and stratagems and assume that they're always available all the time. They're not. Changing arts frequently makes it very costly to access addendum spells and the other stratagems only affect one spell per charge (which is once per minute at 70 and longer before then).

Ice Mage your on crack. seriously man stfu for once.
The irony kills. :rolleyes:


Para 2 sucks
Slow 2 sucks
Phalanx 2 sucks
Blind 2 sucks
Bio 3 Sucks
Dia 3 sucks
Also if you look back at my posts I say slow is the only one that is worth it @ 1 point because it gives you a 100% effect of slow no variables just slow.
You just killed logic and kicked sand over its grave; Slow II sucks but worth it at one point? Er, yeah. (No, there's no logic to this. Don't bother.)

By the way, Slow II's effect is variable--the potency depends on the difference between the caster's MND and the target's MND, with higher floor than Slow I. Plus, higher the merit level on Slow II, the higher the base/floor effect.

Your imaginary "no variables" idea aside, Slow II's best property is the ability to prevent haste buff. That's one less thing to dispel--turning those nasty, utusemi eating haste buff into something even less harmless than a Colibri's Morsel Snatch.

The other nice thing about Slow II is that it's possible for a properly geared RDM to exceed the effect of Hojo: Ni's effect with it. That offloads one thing from NIN, allowing them to concentrate on tanking. (Blind II can also exceed Kurayami: Ni, but people are not counting on evasion for tanking really hard critters.)


Phalanx 2 is Highley effective if its used properly, that means putting it up prior to WS's. etc and is one of the most useful tools I have as RDM.
Seriously, saying Phalanx II "sucks" in the same post calling it "Highley effect" completely violates logic. Unless "Highley" means something else than what I think it does? :biggrin:


BLM can out DoT our BIO3 with BIO2 further proving our merits are shit.
The only thing this statement proves is your ignorance. BLM can hit 8 HP/tick with Bio II; RDM/SCH with enough gear can hit 9 HP/tick with Bio III.

Add what Icemage said about why Bio III is really used.


Unless you have 330 enfeebling your not sticking slow or para or blind without ES, making our group 2 merits shit.
Ever have three RDMs at Byakko? I assure you even when it takes ES to land Slow II, it's far, far, far from worthless--with a little coordination, ES Slow II can cover most of a fight you'd bring multiple RDMs to anyway.

Plus, it lands nicely on Proto-Omega or was that Ultima? Or both? My memory is kinda fuzzy on that. Bunch of other critters, too, on my AF + cheapish AH enfeebling set. (We're talking about NQ Elite Beret and Spider Torque here, not Enfeebling Torque, Beret +1, and most definitely no Enfeebling Earring.)


Ice Mage. You going to close this thread too because people disagree with you, maybe ill post up my test numbers from my para vs para 2 to show you that the teir 2 abilities suck ass.
He closed the thread because you failed to understand what the evidence showed regarding casting and melee swings, even after repeated attempt to explain to you by multiple people. (It showed you were completely wrong, in case you're still wondering.)

Did you ever owe up to the "AGI affect melee swing speed" nonsense statement or however you phrased it? Are you even capable of admit being wrong?!


SCH is the new support job, if I see a sch in my group even think about dropping a teir 4 before giving party ss/blink/phalanx they are getting booted as fast as a rdm who dosent enfeeble or refresh.
Good grief. I hope you never take up Scholar. Bad enough to have you as a Red Mage spreading misinformation and misunderstanding--the damage you can do to a young job like Scholar is a horror beyond imagination.

* * *

Might as well explain why I thought it's ironic, since it's unlikely you'd discover it on your own: Icemage knows EVERYTHING I listed. Heck, EVERYONE (except you) on this forum depends on his knowledge and expertise, especially when it comes to the jobs he plays.

You? Mr "Slow 2 sucks" Mageo? You won't come close to measuring up to Icemage with a tall hat and platform shoes.

DRG's Angons are stronger than Acid Bolts, so RNG and THFs shouldn't use Acid Bolts, ever.
WHM can cure better, so RDM should never cure, ever.
MNKs are better with H2H, so only MNKs should use H2H.
Elvaan have the most HP and VIT, so only Elvaan should be PLDs.
BRD and COR AoE refresh, so RDM never should Refresh.
SMN and BRD can hastega, so RDM and WHM should never haste.


Would just like to point out some things


Acid Bolts are gained at a lower lvl and can be spammed easier giving them a useful advantage over Angons.
Their curing ability is pretty much the same since they can both reach cap.
Mainly, outside of low lvl situations and lolpup, only Mnks DO use h2h. And a punching Mnk will have no effects on your ability to attack (unless he kills it before you can swing)
Galka have the most HP and Vit, Elvaan have the most Str and Mnd. Elvaan also have more MP, which combined with their Higher Mnd makes for better casting ability.
Brd need two spells to match Refresh's potency and Cor needs lucky rolls to be as strong/stronger.
Smn's haste is weaker in potency and duration and Brd's haste (which again needs two songs to equal the spell) can stack with the spell


However, Sch's can cast Phalanx on others at an earlier lvl, hitting more people, with a more potent version, for similar MP costs. Which is completely different from all the other situations you mentioned. Your list shows things that are similar, but an obvious balance can be seen. With Phalanxga, Sch's can do it earlier, stronger, wider and not lose out on very much. And seeing as it's stronger then the Rdm's version, there really is no reason the Rdm should cast it if you have a Sch in the party. Just like how people prefer Whm or Rdm haste over Smn's Hastega.

Non-SCH look at all SCH's new spells and stratagems and assume that they're always available all the time. They're not. Changing arts frequently makes it very costly to access addendum spells and the other stratagems only affect one spell per charge (which is once per minute at 70 and longer before then).

Honestly, I see the act of switching to be a bigger detriment to casting Phalanxga(or other enhance-ga spells) then the one minute recast time on Charges at endgame. A one minute timer is common with buffs iirc, Stoneskin recast is a minute, Smn's BPs is a minute so a Sch's charge timer isn't too bad on it's own. And unless your party is an extremely dire situation, using and waiting a minute for a charge to...well...recharge shouldn't be too much of a strain, assuming you're already in Light Arts stance. Sch's seem to be big fans of AoEing Stonskin, so why not throw a Phalanx on top of that if you can spare a charge?

Regardless of the fact of you you consider my irony, the fact is our teir 2 merits suck, sure you can manipulate them by us