Subjobs? What're you using?

[Kasandaro]

Cause we haven't had this fight yet ... ^^ What're you using as subjob in party? Me, when soloing, I've been using /nin (though I'm horrible about casting utsusemi). Parties, post 20, I've used /war and /nin and prefer /war. I've been thinking about trying /sam for Third Eye and Store TP. Opinions?

[MrMageo]

I liked drg myself till 37 and would probably use it till 60 then go /sam.
It just offers so much more than ninja. (which I use for soloing)

/drg

- jump, good for a quick TP boost
- attack boost, helps with not hitting for 0
- wyvern gear haste-% latent unlocked by /drg, haste speaks for itself

the only con is no DW or shadows for when you get hate from curing. However the haste and jump ability are great replacements.

[LilithAngel]

Yeah, I'm using /drg myself until 60, then it's /sam all the way.

-Attack and Accuracy Bonus; that combo's pretty hard to beat in a subjob for the levels you get them at.

-Jump: as mentioned before, extra damage output, and TP.

-/drg gear: 6% haste total and +6 Attack isn't anything to scoff at, and if you happen to have one of the good lvl 50-55 haste belts, it will really be noticeable once you put them on.

All /nin gives you is shadows. Dual Wield only gives you an off-hand weapon; TP gain is roughly the same regardless. What /drg will offer is more swings that won't hit for 0, thus netting you good TP returns.

Once you hit 60, however, /sam is where it's at. No other sub will net you as much TP, nor give you TP on the spot when you need it. My only question here would be if SE ninja'd Hasso to where you can't swap out a staff for a 1h weapon and keep the boosts.

[Malacite]

I used /BRD for the Dunes, then /DRG as well for 20~29, then switched off to /WAR at 30. I was originally planning to use RNG sub for the accuracy bonus, but as it turned out DNC got that at 15 :D

Eventually I'm going to need to switch to accuracy foods because of DNC's B(B-?) rating in daggers, but for now Berserk and Meat suit me just fine. I figure if I'm going to be constantly meleeing for TP for dances I may as well contribute some decent damage too.

NIN sub is for pussies :P


Nah seriously though it can be a good sub especially if you're in a situation where you have to spam Waltzes (which will rack up quite a lot of hate) so it's nice to have the shadows at those times but generally I prefer /WAR.

If DNC is your main healer in PT of more than 4 people you're already in trouble anyway.

[Sabaron]

All /nin gives you is shadows. Dual Wield only gives you an off-hand weapon; TP gain is roughly the same regardless. What /drg will offer is more swings that won't hit for 0, thus netting you good TP returns.

Well, I don't think you're selling /NIN quite well enough. Remember that Dual Wield (http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Dual_Wield) gives you a 10% delay reduction which is better than the 5% Haste you're getting from Wyvern Earring. Also remember that Jump's value decreases with very light weapons like daggers that return roughly 5% TP per hit (as opposed to the 13% range of larger weapons like lances). Therefore, Jump is only giving you 5% TP every 90 seconds which isn't great, and I'm sure isn't equivalent to the extra 5% Haste you lose from not having Dual Wield.

You can also use /NIN to get Dual Wield at 20th level, 10 levels before you can use Wyvern Earring.

I'm pretty sure you haven't sold me on /DRG yet. I am, however, with you on /SAM at 60+.

[Pteryx]

Well, I don't think you're selling /NIN quite well enough. Remember that Dual Wield (http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Dual_Wield) gives you a 10% delay reduction which is better than the 5% Haste you're getting from Wyvern Earring.

The catch is this: a delay reduction doesn't have the same TP benefit as actual Haste. Dual Wield lowers TP gain proportionately to the delay; as such, it only helps raise DoT, not TP gain -- and TP gain is what DNC needs. Haste, however, doesn't proportionately lower TP gain.

On the other hand, DNC gets Accuracy Bonus natively, so only the Attack Bonus helps from /DRG as far as job traits. The rest is valid, though. -- Pteryx

[LadyKiKi]

I intend to use BST. It's totally broken (powerful), I'll never die, given what I've seen. :biggrin:

[VZX]

EDIT:
wrong forum

[Ziero]

a 10% delay reduction lowers the TP gain you per hit you get so really it's not all that much better. The strength for DW is the offhand weapon stats and extra hit on the WS, neither of those are really all that great at low lvls though. At endgame however DW+Haste gear would greatly increase the amount of swings you get so it's more effective then.

Dnc basically faces all the same problems that Thf does in chosing a sub, both jobs need to gain a lot of TP in a short amount of time using a low delay weapon.
______________________________
/DRG /NIN /THF /WAR
in that order

There is no reason to sub /thf in a pt. Ever.

[Malacite]

Nope. DNC gets 3/4 evasion bonus traits on it's own, and SATA aren't worth it at all either so no point in /THF.

BST sub is without question the best sub for soloing. It's too damn bad SE nerfed the Samabas working on pets though ><

[MrMageo]

Its all based on level, really.

20-50 I would highly recomend /drg for th above reasons. After this /nin become more viable an option in parties because both whm and rdm will have access to haste. This makes the approx-1% TP per attack round really a non issue with the rate of attack you get from DW+Haste. On the other hand if you look at the mobs you generally fight at this level (beetles in basement of garlaige, Crabs in Kuftal) Hiting for zero o these PLD type mobs is a quick way for no TP gain, even hitting for 1 will net you 5%+/- TP. /DRG wins IMO until you can /SAM and get meditate, it with reverse flourish makes DNC a very high self TP producing job with acctually never needing to hit the enemy at all. Since you will not be using WS's the added bonus of having a 2nd hit from an offhand weapon is redundant, ad well as using sata from /thf. As for WAR in the low to middle levels (30-60) the trait Double Attack is highly benificial (on paper). Also at these levels you can make a very good situational, ghetto PLD tank. With animated flourish, provoke, and Waltz you can very easily be a situational tank and even a back up tank, 1st voke for sata, voke for utsu cast etc etc.

[Selphiie The Enchantress]

Dancer:
/Samurai: Default/EXP
/Ninja: NEVER (My Dancer is 62, I benefit more with Store TP and Meditate)

[Malacite]

5 haste, 10 attack and jump do not beat berserk and double attack, especially given the already low delay of daggers.

[MrMageo]

I disagree, personally I used H2H and didnt dick around with daggers, 15% TP>5% in this case Jump is > then a double atack dagger, and haste beats out berserk.

[Sabaron]

The catch is this: a delay reduction doesn't have the same TP benefit as actual Haste. Dual Wield lowers TP gain proportionately to the delay; as such, it only helps raise DoT, not TP gain -- and TP gain is what DNC needs. Haste, however, doesn't proportionately lower TP gain.

Ahh.. Right, Right...

When dual wielding weapons with different Delays, the average Delay (reduction included) is used for the TP calculations; both weapons will gain the same TP.

So DW doesn't give any Haste with respect to TP gain, just DPS. The /NIN whores are all about it as a "Haste" effect. I must have been deceived.

The H2H thing worked well in Yhoator, but that was the last time I saw a DNC with H2H on--after about Viper Bite level, they really seem go for the Daggers (even though they never use it). I'm assuming it's because of the Accuracy dip. Maybe /DRG would allow DNC to use H2H longer.

I can really see using /DRG now, especially post 30. Before Wyvern Earring (http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Wyvern_Earring), I don't think the TP gain on H2H or Dagger would be significant enough for me to prefer it over /MNK if using H2H or /NIN if using Daggers. I'll amend my feelings to...

?-30: /MNK (party) using H2H
30-59: /DRG using Dagger (too bad DNC can't use Centurion's Sword (http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Centurion's_Sword))
60-75: /SAM using Dagger

Now, I've not seen very many DNC's use their TP for WS. Has anyone tried tossing a WS and then using Meditate to recover?

[LilithAngel]

You could toss in Wyvern Targe (http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Wyvern_Targe) for an even round 6% total (not like you were using that off hand slot for anything anyways, right?), and Wyvern Mantle (http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Wyvern_Mantle) for more Attack (the better to not hit for 0 with). The earring isn't the only item the benefits from /DRG, and the set itself is a good, solid reason to do so. It is about 30 that /DRG starts to become the powerhouse that it is for DNC, so before then, I can see MNK being a solid choice.

As other have pointed out, and you have seen, the problem with DW versus Haste is the TP discrepancies, and since DNC is all about TP, it needs the better outcome. In this particular situation, /DRG > /NIN.

/SAM still wins at 60 tho. Always.

As for WS usage, I usually wait until I'm fairly sure I won't need it, and I also have a full stack of FMs to eat afterwards. I usually hit 300% waiting for said conditions. I've been using Cyclone, and seeing a consistent 150-250 point return on it, then using Reverse Flourish to get back 60%. That's been a rather solid strategy thus far, and /SAM at 60 will only reinforce that by allowing me to either regain more after a WS, or WS more by having a second store of TP ready to go afterwards.

[Arris]

Well I just tried out /SAM in a pt setup and didn't like the TP return even with reverse flourish and meditate. The 3 min timer when your killing something very few sec to a min seemed to take forever just for meditate. I'm back up curing so with no shadows there goes that 60 TP just got for meditate. My steps and hits, hit less with one dagger and EVEN with hand-to-hand then with dual wield. So I'm looking at far less TP return anyways. And this is with food and all my acc gear on. Even with the job traits that /SAM offered I still don't see it as useful and I won't prolly sub it again even to solo.

Everyone is looking at the TP return for meditate and reverse flourish but your forgetting you'll be useing that TP as soon as you get it. Haste samba is what 40 TP, CW's 20-50 TP. Using steps is 10 TP and if you don't hit those steps your looking at using 10-30 TP for about a 20 TP return do the math. I've tried /WAR /THF /SAM /NIN /MNK all in PT setups. I'm even partial to subbing /MNK over /NIN. But I think I'll just stick to /NIN for pts and then w/e soloing.

~DNC 74

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Well I just tried out /SAM in a pt setup and didn't like the TP return even with reverse flourish and meditate. The 3 min timer when your killing something very few sec to a min seemed to take forever just for meditate. I'm back up curing so with no shadows there goes that 60 TP just got for meditate. My steps and hits, hit less with one dagger and EVEN with hand-to-hand then with dual wield. So I'm looking at far less TP return anyways. And this is with food and all my acc gear on. Even with the job traits that /SAM offered I still don't see it as useful and I won't prolly sub it again even to solo.

I'm calling "placebo" on this, you're looking for any reason to reach back for Utsusemi. Losing the stats off an offhand dagger wouldn't matter as much as you're making it sound. Moreover, there's a TON or -enmity gear out there for DNC, if you're getting too much hate for curing, you're curing too much or not gearing properly for the hate you'll get.

I suspect you're falling into the same trap a lot of healers fall into, you've decided that the highest tier cure you've got is the best one to use. This would also get you the most hate and would support your reasoning for /NIN.

Its actually counter-productive to the use to Drain Samba and be topping of the HP of your allies with Waltzes, that little space in thier HP bars helps them inflict more damage because its a space to fill.

You're not a doctor, you're not even a WHM, RDM or SCH, you're the battle medic. Its your job to keep allies fighting. Keeping them healthy is another matter completely.

[Tokagawa]

This is confusing.......what exactly is a dancer's job in a party? Is it to heal or to cause damage? I keep reading that people have dancer's in their party heal but if they are going to heal why would they sub something used to cause damage like ninja or warrior when they could just sub another support job like white mage or bard?

[LilithAngel]

Because they don't need to use subs like that to perform their roles as healers. As a matter of fact, it may very well take away from their ability to do so, ironically enough.

A Dancer's ability to heal and support the party comes completely from TP, and the gaining of such. The best way to maximize this is to equip combat subs like Dragoon, Samurai, Warrior, and Ninja. Jobs like Bard, White Mage, Corsair, etc, do not have the native combat abilities that would be needed to support the Dancer's main role of "hit shit, do damage, get TP, keep party alive." Not to any noticeable extent like the aforementioned jobs would.

That's not to say that those jobs don't come with their own perks, but in a party environment, they perform worse than what a melee sub would.

[Ellipses]

This is confusing.......what exactly is a dancer's job in a party? Is it to heal or to cause damage?
Yes.
I keep reading that people have dancer's in their party heal but if they are going to heal why would they sub something used to cause damage like ninja or warrior when they could just sub another support job like white mage or bard?
Dancers heal and do all their other mojo through the use of TP, which you get through hitting the mobs, causing damage. White Mage and Bard don't help you do damage or gain TP (Bard, a little, but not enough to justify it over more melee-oriented subjobs). In fact, they'd slow it down a little. Time spent casting spells (WHM) or singing songs (BRD) is time spent not hitting the mob.

In general (I'm saying "in general" because there are exceptions), BRD sucks as a subjob for anything, and WHM sucks as a subjob for anything that doesn't have MP (Dancer doesn't have MP).

With BRD as your subjob, you can only put one buff song up instead of two, it won't be at full power (and neither will your debuff songs), and you're limited to the song list of a BRD half your level.

With WHM as your subjob, if you don't have native MP anyway, you have a piddly MP pool and underpowered cures for your level (the status cures are handy, though). And once you're out of that small amount of MP, /WHM becomes completely worthless.

[Tokagawa]

Oh......so its like a white mage who gets their magic power from hitting shit insted of resting? lol interesting =p

[MrMageo]

Its acctually more like a RDM/WHM who gets its power from beating a mob instead of refresh/convert/resting. Of course /SAM meditate is kina like convert.

[Krystic]

So a DNC/MNK isnt as effective as /NIN even if u stick with H2H throughout? Is it second best to /NIN?

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

H2H is D skill weapon for DNC, its pretty much time to toss those aside after /MNK if you even bothered to stick with it to 30. As you get higher its best to go with your highest rated weapon which, in this case, would be daggers.

Also, /NIN is not the "best" subjob, its merely one of the options. SAM is far and away the best of the subs, but like any sub, its all situational.

[Krystic]

Sorry for sounding noobish, but the D skill in H2H only affects the ending damage output right? Does it affect accuracy at all? If DNC isnt really a true DD, couldnt they keep /MNK and use H2H for the TP gain?

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Sorry for sounding noobish, but the D skill in H2H only affects the ending damage output right? Does it affect accuracy at all? If DNC isnt really a true DD, couldnt they keep /MNK and use H2H for the TP gain?

Skill affects accuracy with the weapon as well.

[Eiyoko]

I'm thinking about using /DRG, but for now I'm using /WAR.

Someone on my LS flipped me off for not using /NIN but I don't have the money to keep it up let alone level it to 30, so I said screw it.

[VZX]

IMO, DNC should focus on healing only or DD only. Switching from 1 focus to another is not the best idea.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

IMO, DNC should focus on healing only or DD only. Switching from 1 focus to another is not the best idea.

Its easier to balance both aspects as the job grows past 60.

DD-only DNC aren't worth inviting, if I want a dagger DD I'll get a THF - they'll do better. I'll concede DNC is somewhat reduced to DD in Caedarva Mire, but if they're not pitching in Cures elsewhere, I'll look for someone to replace them that will.

If you play it right, as DNC/SAM, weaponskills are a viable option provided you have Reverse Flourish and/or Meditate set up to restore TP for curing. Pre-60, if you're playing a DD DNC, you're probably going to build a bad reputation for it and not get invites.

The underlying point to the addition of DNC and SCH was to allieviate the lack of healers in the game, DD and Crowd-Control elements are just a bonus to these jobs. Put SCH and DNC together and you never need a RDM, BRD or COR in PT. Pair them up with other jobs and they'll compliment other just as well and remove pressure on backline healing. DNC gives up thier TP to save mages MP.

[VZX]

My point is, DNC still missing a critical component to perform both DDing and healing.
Releasing your WS is the most vulnerable period for DNC. You can't do healing after you WS, even if you store Finishing Move, it takes a lot of overhead for releasing WS.

Can't WS, but Storing TP all the time is too.conservative.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

My point is, DNC still missing a critical component to perform both DDing and healing.
Releasing your WS is the most vulnerable period for DNC. You can't do healing after you WS, even if you store Finishing Move, it takes a lot of overhead for releasing WS.

Can't WS, but Storing TP all the time is too.conservative.

I'm not really seeing the problem in a PT context. While DNC has a skill close to THF's with Dagger, its still not on par and they do not get the high-end ones THF does. This tells me SE intended them to have high accuracy to fuel TP for cures, but not so much that they were intended to be a pure DD.

Your problem seems to be that DNC is forced to choose between DD/Enfeebling or Cure/Enfeebling. Is this any different than what SCH deals with? Not really. SCH can't be an effective main healer and an effective DD at the same time. If I choose to DD, I have to live with D skill Cures at higher cost, slower recast/casting time and no access to Accession SS/Phalanx/Regen/Cure.

Is it any different than what RDM has to deal with? They're constantly discouraged from melee and they could if they really needed to, but the casting they're invited to do often gets too much in the way of that. So again, we're faced with choice of what another job has to focus on.

Even a job like DRG or PUP is forced to make a choice in what thier specialization is in a given situation. PUP can't be a good DD and a good healer at the same time, they have to use thier automation and subjob to supplant whatever function they're choosing to provide. Oftentimes these days, that's subbing /DNC and using Soulsoother frame.

DRG/Mage has to give up melee JAs/Traits from other subjobs to fufill a worthwhile healing capacity. Either they're full on melee or they're an average melee with a pet healer.

Why should DNC get the best of everything? Most other hybrids (I hate that word) don't.

The only problems from where I am standing for DNC is:

(1) Much like COR, they're rendered powerless by amnesia and SE has yet to add a genuinely practical status cure method for that ailment. Ecphoria Ring doesn't cut it, its nice DNC ring otherwise, though. Magic users can fix silence easily with echo drops, Amenesia doesn't have a fix other than waiting it out or using the enchantment on Ecphoria.

(2) Its rendered powerless in fights where TPing a mob/NM would generally be a bad idea.

(3) It cannot provide things like Protect, Shell or Raise to a party.

[Temagori]

I have been staticing with a good friend of mine with my SCH and his DNC and I have to say oddly enough his Dancing Edge creams THF's.

Granted he is a Galka, but I think the better reason for this is the more CHR based gear you wear as a DNC and the fact that that is a high modifier in Dancing Edge. He has been forced to DD due to me main healing and a either a rdm or whm as well. DNC can self SC with their Flourishes and do some decent dd addition with the extra emergency healing and/or main heal for periods at a time. I have noticed, though, as much as he would like to say he can, DNC can't main heal a party in all situations as well as a mage.

I've been made to be a Nuking SCH and had to rush cure people because of him running out of TP. DNC is extremely beneficial for back-up healing and with any other healer there is no need for any other healer in that respective slot. They can add decent damage from WS if they are given a chance to and offer some nice little perks. I am a little worried though about their actual usefulness end-game since their bread and butter is TP.

Hopefully /SAM makes up for this, cuz for Gods and Jailers I don't see DNC hitting enough to be effective in their job quite like they can in a party set-up.

[Illyria]

Would subbing RDM be good alternative with a DNC? I'm thinking for the extra enfeebling you can cast at the start of battle and then maybe even the En spells on the dagger. I just don't have the energy at the moment to level Monk or even start the Dragoon or Samurai quests.

[Armando]

Disregard! I misread. Note to self: don't post at 6 AM.

[Ellipses]

Would subbing RDM be good alternative with a DNC? I'm thinking for the extra enfeebling you can cast at the start of battle and then maybe even the En spells on the dagger. I just don't have the energy at the moment to level Monk or even start the Dragoon or Samurai quests.
RDM doesn't have anything that helps you gain TP. Casting spells interrupts your melee swings, further reducing TP gain. The MP pool of a mage subjob doesn't last very long when you're trying to use it regularly, and half-level Enfeebling skill isn't going to get you very far against XP mobs.

You might get away with it if all your parties have low expectations or don't really understand DNC, especially early on, but no, it's not a good alternative.

[Nuriko]

Does Reverse Flourish need a target? If not, you could always aim to finish the fight with a WS then get some TP back in any downtime between mobs...

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

/ja "Reverse Fourish" <me>

That's how it works, you can only target yourself.

[Karinya]

The only problems from where I am standing for DNC is:

(1) Much like COR, they're rendered powerless by amnesia and SE has yet to add a genuinely practical status cure method for that ailment. Ecphoria Ring doesn't cut it, its nice DNC ring otherwise, though. Magic users can fix silence easily with echo drops, Amenesia doesn't have a fix other than waiting it out or using the enchantment on Ecphoria.
You could fight something else. I think there's only one mob family in the game that spams amnesia (unless there's more in WotG). Several other jobs have a few mob families that they're weak against (piercing users:bones, blm and rdm:colibri/ahriman/pots, most melee:elementals/ghosts, etc.) Taking highly-JA-dependent jobs to fight imps is like taking those other jobs to fight the monsters they're weak against. Why do that?

DNC are also weak to aoe tp-reducing mobs like fomor and gnats, IMX. But again, that doesn't describe most mobs.

(2) Its rendered powerless in fights where TPing a mob/NM would generally be a bad idea.
Unless there are other mobs nearby to tp, yeah. You can /SAM or use opo necklace, or even 2hr, but all of those are mediocre solutions at best.

Of course, there's lots of endgame content where you can tp just fine, so maybe the answer to that one is to get another job for those few specific fights. Like I said for point 1, some jobs are weak against some enemies, and that certainly applies to HNMs too.

Show me a good place for, say, THF in any of those same non-TP-able fights, aside from being swapped in at the last second for TH.
(3) It cannot provide things like Protect, Shell or Raise to a party.
Intentional limitation, I think. All the jobs that can provide those things are dependent on MP and resting, and all are worse than DNC at at least one of DD or healing (although a SCH can choose which one to be worse at, they still must be worse at one or the other at any given time, in addition to being dependent on MP).

DNC also can't provide Dispel and crowd control, but those can be worked around by choosing the right camp, or getting a party member who can provide those things.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Of course, there's lots of endgame content where you can tp just fine, so maybe the answer to that one is to get another job for those few specific fights. Like I said for point 1, some jobs are weak against some enemies, and that certainly applies to HNMs too.

That's more of a problem in and of itself than a solution. There shouldn't be situations where one particular job is made so powerless they can't be viable for a certain event. Its things like this that damage the perception of certain job classes and led to them not being used for other things they could have done just fine in.

[Karinya]

That's more of a problem in and of itself than a solution. There shouldn't be situations where one particular job is made so powerless they can't be viable for a certain event.
In theory, I agree, but in practice, almost every job in the game faces that situation in some content or other. Even bard is weak in some 3 man BCNMs.

Any place a dancer can't fight for TP, a warrior, a monk, a dragoon, a dark knight, a thief, a beastmaster, and a puppetmaster can't either; and since it's probably a level 90 HNM that (non-avatar) pets are going to be a worthless liability against, three of those jobs have a double disadvantage. And SAM will only be sitting back meditating and waiting until they can run in and WS.

I think that's more a function of those particular fights than of any one job. And it doesn't extend to most newer content like limbus, assault, salvage, einherjar, campaign or ZNMs.
Its things like this that damage the perception of certain job classes and led to them not being used for other things they could have done just fine in.
SE can't be blamed for player stupidity.

HNMs that are strong or weak to particular jobs have been around a long time, and short of homogenizing endgame content somehow (which would make it less varied and interesting), I don't see a way around it. Other than the job change system, which every character gets for free.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

I think that's more a function of those particular fights than of any one job. And it doesn't extend to most newer content like limbus, assault, salvage, einherjar, campaign or ZNMs.

If the concept behind the design of Zilart endgame was "Well, they could always change to another job," then its no wonder this other content has become so much more successful and popular with the players. Zilart takes the much-vaunted flexibility of FFXI and turns it into its bane, most of this other content does not.

[Karinya]

It's not just Zilart - JoL and AV are even worse in that regard. And AFAIK, so are CoP wyrms and the TOAU HNMs (Cerb, Khim, Hydra). Kite, nuke and blink tank {Yes, please.} Anything else {No thanks.} Some BCNMs too.

Those are the most effective tactics in this game because they're overpowered against single mobs. The fact that some endgame content can be beaten without resorting to them is nice, but it doesn't change the fact that kiting and blink tanking are overpowered, and against the toughest mobs, you *have* to (ab)use the most overpowered tactics available or get left in the dust.

Which is why it's nice that there's endgame content that consists of plowing through large numbers of individually less badass mobs - any job can contribute to that, it has more to do with organization and crowd control.

DNC, ultimately, is just another victim of this overall imbalance.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

I've done JoLs and there's nothing terribly dramatic about the setups for it, we had melees up front, RNGs, SAM/RNG in the back for melee. BLMs to control the baby mobs it spits out and such. Only thing that was ass backwards about the fight was where the LS put the BRD and the COR, but then, the RNGs couldn't trust the BRDs to do anything right for them anyway.

AV... If you can show me an LS that can get it down to 90% without wiping, I'd be impressed. I've watched an LS have one RDM tank it for about 13 minutes before they all died horribly, so we've really not figured out the optimal way to do that yet, though the RDM tank thing seems to have some merit.

I tend to place CoP wyrms and ToA HNM under the Zilart umbrella of the flawed design. They have a different respawn time, so extreme it actually discourages camping the way we do it for kings. The windows are different. But it still boils down to job exclusivity and the jobs that are favored just happen to work just fine everywhere else, too. And the jobs that don't just happen to be the ones shunned elsewhere. Victims of endgame's tendancy to drag everything into hyperbole? Sure is.

So out of the last five jobs created, SE has had an epic brainfart with three of them at endgame levels. PUP became the "good for solo" job (same as BST). BLU is welcomed into just about every mission setting, but shunned from god/HNM. And now we have DNC, which is a great job... for EXP and non-HNM/god content.

COR and SCH struggled getting out of the gate, but in time got the tweaks they needed to be useful pretty much everywhere. These jobs were just planned out better.