Getting into RDM tankage!

[Callisto]

I inadvertently dived into my first experience with RDM tanking over the weekend, and I have to say it's pretty fun! This is actually something I've been wanting to try for a while now, I'm currently working towards getting proper gear for it, but emnity+ and haste stuff is somewhat expensive/hard to get. However, I did get kind of thrown into it before I could get my gear together...

We did 2 Kirin runs this past Friday, and while I don't generally consider kiting as real 'tanking' I did make several attempts at straight tanking when I could. I was actually only supposed to be the person who kites Kirin while the minis popped, as we were short on tanks and our main tank was needed in the minis alliance. So I grouped up with a lone WHM and went to kiting.

I got Crimson Cuisses recently, I know that the kiting end is still very possible without them, but they certainly made things much easier. I actually had -5 emnity in gear for this, so it took a little to build proper hate, but once I had it I had it good.

After popping I opened with a couple of Dispels to try and establish a bit of CE, then made use of Blind, Sleep, and Sleep II to hold hate off of the WHM(at first just her casting Haste/Barspells could have pulled it). The kiting part was very easy, the only TP moves that can really hit you when you are kiting are Great Whirlwind and Great Sandstorm, both can do a decent chunk of damage, but neither will take away your shadows, so you're still pretty safe. Everytime he stopped to cast I would rebuff and cast Blind for more hate.

When the minis were done, the alliance filtered back in, and the PLD started doing Flash/Sent for hate...except it didn't come off of me, lol. At first I nearly died b/c I stopped running/casting expecting hate to come right off of me, and I was ready to go into normal alliance RDM mode. After a few big damage chunks still left me with hate, I decided to just go with it, and spam my hate rotation again. Blind is an amazing hate spell, it casts so quickly, has almost no recast, is very easy on MP, and makes a solid chunk of hate.

Eventually I miscounted shadows and stopped to build hate during Stone V, his spell took my 3rd and he hit me with a 1600+ TP move. This is where things get a little difficult. As I said before, once you have hate as a RDM you have it solid, but building hate from scratch in the middle of the battle can take a fair amount of time. After unweakening it took me a solid 2-3 minutes of spell spamming to get back on the level of hate with the PLD, he caught an unlucky Stonega and I was left tanking again.

Basically for the rest of the fight I kited until both Utsu timers were up, then straight tanked for a few seconds until both timers were down, trying to give the DDs time to do their thing. So long as you toss out 1-2 spells often(I used Blind/Sleep pretty much every time he stopped to cast a spell, and squeezed a cast off when I could when he would stop for TP moves), even without emnity gear you really shouldn't have a ton of trouble holding hate, although I'm assuming it will be much easier once I get a proper tanking set put together. Anyways, near the end of the second fight I got spunky and tried to straight tank the last few %, and Great Whirlwind killed me right as he dropped. For Kirin specifically I highly advise putting up Baraero if you try to straight tank for a few, Great Whirlwind is killer compared to his other TP moves.

I did have a couple of bloopers. At one point I did accidentally MPK an alliance member, I cast Bind in my Terra's Staff as a hate spell, but the Bind actually stuck and Kirin turned and 1-shotted the closest DD. :o Also, I didn't realize that Astral Flow wiped shadows, I survived the blast and went to pull hate again, didn't realize I had no shadows up and got pounded.

The really good news for me is I've been trying to push the idea of me tanking things as RDM on my LS for awhile, and although the leader trusts me with alot of crap, he usually brushed that idea off thinking it wasn't as feasible. This showed that even without a tanking set holding hate isn't much of an issue, so once I get my set together I should be a pretty capable tank.

Here's what I actually wore for the fights, nowhere near ideal:
Terra's Staff
Raptor Strap+1
Phantom Tathlum
Warlock's Chapeau+1
Peacock Charm(just my base neck)
Hollow Earring(same for l.ear)
Loqacious Earring
Duelist's Tabard
Duelist's Gloves
Balrahn's Ring
Tamas Ring
Prism Cape
Penitent's Rope
Crimson Cuisses
Goliard Clogs

I really wasn't planning on tanking, if I had I could have set up some macros to swap out the -emnity gear at the least, but couldn't really do it while on the run. I spent some time after making a few tanking macros in preperation for when I get the gear I need(I also had to make a macro for Blind I lol, I haven't used it in ages, I had to cast it from the menu during the fights).

Anyways I'm currently taking a few weeks off of LS events so that I can get some stuff done for myself, including finishing up some subjobs and making gil for emnity/haste gear. Ideally my tanking set will look like this in a few weeks:
Macahuitl +1 x2
Phantom Tathlum
Warlock's Chapeau +1
Harmonia's Torque
Eris's Earring
Loquacious Earring
Duelist's Tabard
Dusk Gloves
Bomb Queen Ring
Mermaid's Ring
Resentment Cape(I really friggin hope!)
Warwolf Belt
Crimson Cuisses
Dusk Ledlesens

If you guys try this out too good luck to you, it really is a ton of fun, hopefully I can assemble my set soon and give it a real earnest try instead of just being tossed into it unprepared!

http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e127/rprice80/rdmtankage.jpg

[Yellow Mage]

Dude, no fair! I wanted to get in to Red Mage tanking first . . . it's not my fault I have only just unlocked Paladin . . .

Okay, maybe it is technically my fault, but how am I supposed to be the anti-callisto if Calli's going from DD to tank?

You can ask BP to confirm: I had told him I wanted to do it for a while now.

[Callisto]

Yeah I've wanted to do it for months since I started reading Belkin's LJ, I at least want to attempt every possible facet of RDM, whether it's successful or not. I've gotten to do normal backline RDM, RDM melee, big-time DoT solos, and even my somewhat failed attempt at RDM/RNG, so tanking is about all that's left, lol.

Also, my LS now has a few good RDMs, and several tanks who may serve the LS better on their DD jobs, so I could make things alot more flexible as a tank, freeing up other members to do other things. Really though, getting ahold of the gear for tanking sucks ass, I'm looking at a minimum 1.7m investment in emnity/haste gear, in addition to the pain of getting a Swift Belt(I despise level-capped events). I think a few of our other RDMs like Itaz and WM3K kind of have a leg up since they should have a decent chunk of the emnity gear from their PLDs already.

[Sevv]

Old Set a rdm/nin used to tank hnms

Malc+1 x2
Lamian Kaman +1
Duelist Chap
Harmonia's Torque
Eris' Earring +1 x2
Dalmy
Dusk gloves
Merman's Ring
Sattva Ring
Cerberus Mantle +1
Trance Belt
Crimson Legs
Dusk feet

[Callisto]

Yeah some of the stuff is kind of out of reach for the time being, like the AF2 hat/Dalmy. The back I'm kind of tossing around, I'm not sure which would be more of a bitch at the moment, camping the Resentment Cape or making gil for the Cerb+1.

I also need to work on a Magic Damage %-/MDB set, which is relatively cheap to do, but I don't have the inventory space for it at the moment unless I mule off my BRD gear, and the last time I did that I didn't get to play my BRD for 4 months. ^^;

[Sevv]

Yeah some of the stuff is kind of out of reach for the time being, like the AF2 hat/Dalmy. The back I'm kind of tossing around, I'm not sure which would be more of a bitch at the moment, camping the Resentment Cape or making gil for the Cerb+1.

I also need to work on a Magic Damage %-/MDB set, which is relatively cheap to do, but I don't have the inventory space for it at the moment unless I mule off my BRD gear, and the last time I did that I didn't get to play my BRD for 4 months. ^^;


Depending what your tanking usually the resists for tiamat, but most things we tanked with used that static setup, there are pieces you can change that are in grasp for each person. I love having a rdm/nin tank at khim tbh, so much hate on Khim, usually to pick up for the lack of nin/drks major hate.

[Callisto]

For the time being I'll likely only be doing Sky gods, maybe Omega/Ultima, and we are interested in trying Khim soon. I really was shocked at how heavy the hate was even without emnity+ gear, I expected it to be much harder to hold hate off of the DDs than it was, now that I see how easy it is I'm pretty psyched to get my tanking gear together.

[MrMageo]

awesome callisto Im glad you had a good experience with tanking. It's a very hard thing to do successfully. It is the last step in RDMdom IMO once you can grasp it there is nothing you cant do for a party or alliance. Congrats and I hope you keep up the drive for it.

[Sevv]

Rdm can't tank in pts, they can for hnms

[MrMageo]

RDM/WAR FTW It can be done it just takes alot of work. I think what you meant to say is. RDM shouldn't tank in parties. In that sense I agree.

[Callisto]

Rdm can't tank in pts, they can for hnms
Eff that, I wouldn't try to tank in a meripo. Meripos are for meleeing.

[Selphiie The Enchantress]

RDM tanks HNMs very smoothly (with the right player skill/gear of course)

Unless they are the RDMs who only think they have to lvl /blm and not have other subjobs for a little more versatility, then I want THOSE rdms wayyyyy in the back lol.

[Sevv]

RDM/WAR FTW It can be done it just takes alot of work. I think what you meant to say is. RDM shouldn't tank in parties. In that sense I agree.

You couldn't keep hate off my drg '.'/

Rdm can not tank in pts with decent melee jobs in the pt. period

I said what i meant.

[Electricity Gone Human]

Man, I get intimidated easily by the thought of tanking HNMs. I'll have to try it when I get really good with RDM. Looking good though, Callisto!

RDM tanks HNMs very smoothly (with the right player skill/gear of course)

Unless they are the RDMs who only think they have to lvl /blm and not have other subjobs for a little more versatility, then I want THOSE rdms wayyyyy in the back lol.

Yeah, screw those RDMs, I wanna see RDMs that put effort into their job!

[Celeal]

RDM/WAR FTW It can be done it just takes alot of work. I think what you meant to say is. RDM shouldn't tank in parties. In that sense I agree.

Well, do you expect the DD in exp. parties to put away their weapons until the RDM tank spend enough time to build enough hate? .....:huh:

[Callisto]

Man, I get intimidated easily by the thought of tanking HNMs.

At one point I was like 'Holy crap this is so easy!'...being 1-shotted when shadows went down did go a long way to remind me that I'm still a RDM, though. :wasted:

[Susurrus]

I wish i was part of a shell that would let me try different stuff on RDM. :( Its all Cure/sleepga/refresh bot. :(

[Callisto]

I wish i was part of a shell that would let me try different stuff on RDM. :( Its all Cure/sleepga/refresh bot. :(

I suppose I'm pretty lucky in that respect, I can get away with alot. The one time I accidentally came /DRK to JoTemp, noone even looked at me sideways when I ate sushi and did mini Souleater zergs when it was up, lol.

[Sevv]

Most major linkshells understand RDM/NIN can tank point in case JoL Khim etc

[MrMageo]

RDM/WAR can tank a party It just requires the proper set up, 1. We have more hate grabing tools then a ninja. 2. We have more effective damage mitigation then a ninja, since losing ours dosent cause us to lose hate -25 per shadow no thanks. It also requires a skill theif who knows ow to effectivley use accomplice to plant hate. (Kinda like any tank). Its not an ideal setup and I wouldnt do it to prove I can. However there are times when I party that no tanks are looking, straping on war for voke solves that problem. Its not a 20K+ an hour setup, but I dont do TP Burns too often. SC+MB only for me.

[WishMaster3K]

Can we have a "No Thanks" button? I'd use it just for MrMageo.

[Yellow Mage]

Okay, seriously folks? Why am I still the only one ignoring this guy?

It applies here, as well.

[Sevv]

RDM/WAR can tank a party It just requires the proper set up, 1. We have more hate grabing tools then a ninja. 2. We have more effective damage mitigation then a ninja, since losing ours dosent cause us to lose hate -25 per shadow no thanks. It also requires a skill theif who knows ow to effectivley use accomplice to plant hate. (Kinda like any tank). Its not an ideal setup and I wouldnt do it to prove I can. However there are times when I party that no tanks are looking, straping on war for voke solves that problem. Its not a 20K+ an hour setup, but I dont do TP Burns too often. SC+MB only for me.

Come to cerberus and try to tank for me '.'/

[Callisto]

So I ran the tab on the things I want, and holy crap am I looking at a hefty bill for my tanking sets, lol.

Macahuitl +1 x2 - 80k(not so bad)
Lamian Kaman - 24k(HQ is a tad unreasonable atm)
Harmonia's Torque - 80k(can hopefully get for free from ENM)
Eris' Earring - 90k(OMFG S-E didn't name it with "s's", that drives me f$%^ing nuts when they do that)
Merman's Earring x2 - 260k
Coral Finger Gauntlets +1 - 250k
Dusk Gloves - 660k
Mermaid's Ring - 145k
Merman's Ring x2 - 200k
Cerberus Mantle - 1.2m(or camp a month for Resentment Cape :/)
Lieutenant's Sash - Only 2 ranks away, and halfway to my next one, but need 50k more IS)
Coral Cuisses +1 - 200k
Dusk Ledelsens - 680k

So only about 3.7m...time to start saving those Bat Wings!

[Electricity Gone Human]

At one point I was like 'Holy crap this is so easy!'...being 1-shotted when shadows went down did go a long way to remind me that I'm still a RDM, though. :wasted:
hahah, yep. Especially when at DM, I kited AA EV and I got One-Shotted by Spirits Within on the second run. I also could've known she was susceptible to Bind and not just Gravity. :wasted:

[WishMaster3K]

I kited AA EV. It was one of the easier things I've done.

Kiting as a RDM is easy as dirt, idk why. I kited the Rostrum Pumps mob the entire time it took the main alliance to raise and rebuff till full, and Gravity wasn't resisted once. I wasn't even subbing NIN.

When being a RDM Kite, the hardest parts are the idiots around you... -_-

[TheGrandMom]

When being a RDM Kite, the hardest parts are the idiots around you... -_-

This needs to be carved into a golden plaque and put on the wall in the rdm lodge! :P

[Selphiie The Enchantress]

When being a RDM Kite, the hardest parts are the idiots around you... -_-

win

[MrMageo]

When being a RDM Kite, the hardest parts are the idiots around you... -_-

Sub kite, with Tank, Crowd Control, Puller as it applies to all these as well.

[Callisto]

When being a RDM Kite, the hardest parts are the idiots around you... -_- Simple solution: Kite past them, stop and cast Bind roughly 1 second after passing them. Problem will solve itself.

[WishMaster3K]

Simple solution: Kite past them, stop and cast Bind roughly 1 second after passing them. Problem will solve itself.

I shall try this.

[Callisto]

Gawd. A friend was nice enough to hook me up with a ToD, and in the pursuit of tanking awesomeness here I am up at 5am before work waiting for the Resentment Cape NM to pop. Stupid RDM tanking and being all stupidly awesome. Edit: Huzzah, 1/1!

[Seijurohiko]

I got really interested in RDM tanking about a year and a half ago. I started to build up a semi-decent tanking set and finally got a chance to tank my first HNM when the LS decided to go take on Jormungand.

I co-tanked with a PLD/NIN and the fight went very smoothly. At the time, we tried to share hate in a way that let me tank the majority of his air attacks while the PLD tanked him on the ground, which worked out ok, but I feel I could have easily solo tanked the large majority of that fight just as efficienly.

Just after that fight, I had to leave the game for an extended length of time (like 8 or 9 months or so).

Now that I'm playing again, I got my first chance to tank some sky gods earlier today. LS let me co-tank Byakko with a PLD/NIN and Suzaku with a NIN/DRK. The Byakko fight could have gone smoother, but he definitely doesn't cater well to RDM/NIN tanking style. at around 30% or so into the fight he caught me with Diaga III, followed by a round of triple attack (around 200 per hit), then an immediate Razor Fang for about 800 dmg, effectively one-shotting me from full hp and a fresh set of shadows.

http://img291.imageshack.us/img291/5019/pol2008032018185446uo7.jpg

The next fight, however, was so much better as Suzaku is much more friendly to RDM/NIN and allowed me to showcase to some LS doubters the potential of a RDM/NIN tank. In this fight, I was paired with the LS's token NIN/DRK who told me he was going to go "all out on hate." He opened the fight with Stun while I received an SATA WS. From that point on, I don't think Suzaku took action on anyone other than me. It was all the NIN could do to just turn him for a second or two before I had hate again. Suzaku's lack of TP regen and slow attack speed, combined with a solid stun rotation allowed me to tank Ni to Ni without a single melee attack getting through. I knew RDM/NIN could be a very good tank, but this fight really opened my eyes.

Afterwards, the NIN jokingly said he was going to retire his NIN in shame. :rofl:

The gear I used for that fight was as follows:

Macuahuitl +1 x2 (Macroed in Neptune's Staff during CS)
Rosenbogen (Macroed in Lamia Kamen during CS)
AF1 Hat
Harmonia's Torque (macroed Enfeebling Torque during CS
Eris' Earring x2 (Macroed in Loquac. Earring for Utsusemi)
AF2 Body
Dusk Gloves
Mermaid's Ring
Snow Ring ^^;
Cheviot Cape (macroed in Lamia Mantle +1 during CS)
Warwolf Belt (Macroed in lolQuick Belt for Utsusemi)
Crimson Cuisses
Dusk Ledelsens

Still alot of gear I'm missing but this set did quite well.

I really need to credit Kaeko and everyone else involved in the ongoing testing of enmity mechanics. Having knowledge of the different types of hate associated with each spell as well as the mechanics of hate decay, I think, allowed me to maintain such a firm grip on hate. The main spells I used for hate were Bind (640 VE, 1 CE), Blind (640 VE, 1 CE), Dispel (320 VE, 320 CE), Sleep (240 VE, 320 CE), and Sleep II (480 VE, 480 CE).

My strategy was to focus on building CE close to the 10k cap first, and then focus on sustaining high VE. Dispel, Sleep, and Sleep II are pretty much the only choices for CE, so I cycled through these spells through the first several minutes. Each cycle yields about 1120 CE (without +enmity gear), so it takes something like 8 - 10 cycles to cap out on CE (depending how much +enmity you have, as well as how much dmg you take).

Once a high level of CE is achieved, I focus on VE spells, changing the spell rotation to Bind, Blind, Sleep II. (Barspells can also give some quick VE)

I'm pretty sure this is why I was able to beat out the NIN hate-wise. His rotation seemed to be Stun, Bind, Blind, which focuses much on VE. Since the majority of his enmity was VE, and constantly decaying, it was harder to keep up with my CE, which only decays when you take dmg or lose shadows.

Anyway, I'm kinda rambling a bit and this post is longer than I intended lol. After today, I'm even more interested in improving my gear and tactics and hope to post a video of my next tanking endeavor.

[IfritnoItazura]

The next fight, however, was so much better as Suzaku is much more friendly to RDM/NIN and allowed me to showcase to some LS doubters the potential of a RDM/NIN tank. In this fight, I was paired with the LS's token NIN/DRK who told me he was going to go "all out on hate."

[ ... ]

I'm pretty sure this is why I was able to beat out the NIN hate-wise. His rotation seemed to be Stun, Bind, Blind, which focuses much on VE.
NIN/DRK doesn't have Blind, unless you mean Kurayami.

[Sevv]

The ninja should be Stun-> Sleep -> Bind if they want good hate. If you really wanna see a Rdm/Nin out hate the shit out of plds and ninjas, take your ls to Khim and watch Dispel -> Sleep -> Sleep II -> bind/blind rotation.

[WishMaster3K]

I'm so going to start tanking as a RDM now. PLD was just a crutch to cap my skills >_>. And get awesome gear, because they WON'T give RDM first dibs on Crimson no matter where you go /sob

[Dranzia]

I have a question, if you guys don't mind.

I'm assuming you're using the Dusk Gloves + Feet for the purpose of the added Haste %.
I also notice that you're using Crimson Cuisses for your leg piece.

Does this equate out to +/- 0% movement speed? (Do they offset perfectly?)

and if not (if you get -% or 0% movement speed):

Is it then actually worth it to trade the increased speed of CC for the Haste?

I'm just curious, as I'm very interested in trying this out, and I want to look into what I might use myself. I generally use the AFv2 gloves for the added Enhancing Magic Skill to assist in my stoneskin/phalanx setup (although I can probably go w/o it if needed).

Also, does anyone use the enchanted mantles (with +enmity)? I didn't see anyone state that they swap back pieces in/out, so I was curious about that. In my Limbus shell, our NIN's always use the enchanted pieces for Omega/Ultima, and it seems to help quite a bit. Edit: Sorry, Seijurohiko did mention swapping out back pieces. So this question can go to those who don't swap them >.>

Thanks for the info. :)

[Seijurohiko]

Hmm, I guess it would be kinda hard for a NIN/DRK to use the spell: Blind. ^^;

As for Dusk gear combined with Crimson Cuisses, I would say it depends on the type of mob you're tanking. If you're straight tanking something, it makes no difference what your movement speed is, and the haste, HP, and defense on the dusk gear is pretty nice to have on full time rather than macro in and out (can help your healers out a bit too if you're not blinking in and out every couple seconds).

If you're kiting the mob, like Kirin, then I wouldn't bother using any dusk since movement speed would probably be more helpful. I plan on using AF2 hands along with Crimson Greaves when I get a chance to kite Kirin around.

For back pieces, there's lots of good ones out there. The High Breath Mantle is pretty good, but you will lose the effect if you macro it out for anything. Since you can macro out back pieces without annoying your healers, I like to carry a few and use them situationally. Prism Cape for Stoneskin casts, Cheviot for when I know I'll be taking a hit or two, and Lamia +1 for magic defense. I'd really like to pick up a Cerberus Mantle and Resentment Cape as well.

[Nataka]

edit: nevermind

[Callisto]

I have a question, if you guys don't mind.

I'm assuming you're using the Dusk Gloves + Feet for the purpose of the added Haste %.
I also notice that you're using Crimson Cuisses for your leg piece.

Does this equate out to +/- 0% movement speed? (Do they offset perfectly?)

and if not (if you get -% or 0% movement speed):

Is it then actually worth it to trade the increased speed of CC for the Haste?

I'm just curious, as I'm very interested in trying this out, and I want to look into what I might use myself. I generally use the AFv2 gloves for the added Enhancing Magic Skill to assist in my stoneskin/phalanx setup (although I can probably go w/o it if needed).

Also, does anyone use the enchanted mantles (with +enmity)? I didn't see anyone state that they swap back pieces in/out, so I was curious about that. In my Limbus shell, our NIN's always use the enchanted pieces for Omega/Ultima, and it seems to help quite a bit. Edit: Sorry, Seijurohiko did mention swapping out back pieces. So this question can go to those who don't swap them >.>

Thanks for the info. :)
The W.Legs are worn for pretty much every stat but the movement speed, actually(assuming you aren't tanking, then there's that bonus as well). There isn't much better for RDM tanking than the 43 Def, HP/MP +25, and the few resistance boosts. Coral Cuisses +1 are also a nice piece for putting together a magic damage- build for when you know you're about to get smacked for big magic damage. I also use AF+1 pants for my Stoneskin/Phalanx/Barspells, in regards to the AF2 hands, I'd wear them for every buff except Stoneskin if you have Dusk Gloves and a fairly strong Enhancing set otherwise, in which case I'd wear the Dusk hands/feet to keep the Stoneskin recast as low as possible. As far as the breath mantles, if you don't have a Merciful Cape for enhancing spells you could fulltime the breath mantle, but keep in mind that if you die and get back up there's still a long recast timer on the mantle, so you'll want to carry a backup Emnity+ backpiece just in case.