End Game RDM Guide (level 75)- Melee Resource Edition

-Disclaimer-
This guide will cover the aspects of RDM at endgame from a melee perspective. If you are not interested in learning, reading, or acknowledging RDM Melee stop reading here. I do not wish for the potential flame fest that will erupt from this. Yes RDM Backline is effective. This guide is being written because every where I go, and every RDM melee thread I see, is a flame fest from both sides of the camp. With mostly yes it can, no it can arguments. I am writing this to provide a knowledgeable resource for people who wish to learn about the topic, Not debate it. There will be many equations Included in this for you to add your own numbers and see where you will sit in terms of efficiency. I will be providing weapons and gear examples some of which I do not currently own. Please also note for all reasoning behind this guide, a WHM, will be assumed in the party. That being said please understand RDM melee is highly situational as are the majority of our roles. One must know when to put away the sword and pull out a staff.


My background
I felt it was important to put my background on this to avoid potential arguments. I have been playing this game since It's NA release way back when.
(6 years now I think). I have levelled RDM to 75 twice, and various other jobs to other levels. I have experienced both backline and front line duties on RDM, while I prefer the later, the former is no less of a way to play the game. I get lots of abuse from people on forums when I offer to share my information on a certain RDM topic, usually RDM Melee. For my part I can be very hot headed and will defend my views till I am blue in the face. For the most part I will do my best to keep this Guide as unbiased as possible.

RDM Melee-

What is it about?

RDM melee is a touchy subject, It is assumed that it is laughable, and in most regards it is. RDM melee is not based around doing large numbers at one time, but smaller numbers over time. (DoT) Our class excels in 2 things that make it very viable as a front line job. Damage Mitigation (Stoneskin, Phalanx), MP conservation (Refresh, Convert). RDM melee is not DD (I can't stress this enough), If you want big numbers at one time then this is not for you. Once again RDM melee is not DD. In short RDM melee is about adding DoT through engaging the enemy, opening Skill Chains (never close a SC our WS are to weak)

In order to be an effective melee RDM you must understand a few things.
1. RDM IS NOT A DD.
2. Party support is more important then your next sword swing
3. Elemental weakness of Mobs for correct enspell usage
4. What to cast, When to cast it, and who to cast it on.
5. Timing spell casting so it falls between swings.
6. RDM IS NOT A DD

Basically you will be applying an enspell to your weapon for best results use + enhancing gear when casting. This will be your added boost to DoT. You will be carrying your refresh, haste, enfeeble, MB, back up cures to the frontline with you. Just because you are engaging the mob does not mean you are not still a mage. Through proper equipment, enspells, and cast timing you will benefit your party with additional DoT.

Sub jobs

/WAR - OMGWTFBBQKITTEN

Highlights

- Berserk, Defender
- Vorpal Blade, Red Lotus Blade
- ATK/DEF bonus
- Double ATK

Lowlights

- No dual wield
- no acc boost
- no MP boost

War offers a ballanced aproach to melee, berserk will boost atk,defender will boost defence, provoke can be used to take a few hits while tank needs to fix themselves, Double atk offers yet another swing however will not allow joyuese to double attack if it procs.


/NIN

High Lights
- Dual Wield
- Shadows
- Ichi line of Elemental nukes

Low Lights
- No MP boost
- No Attack Boost
- No Accuracy Boost

This Sub job is great choice as it allows 2 weapons with use of enspells. It also allows you to use Ninjutsu to lower resistances prior to Magic Bursts for a boost to damage. These alone allow for additional DoT. Shadows allow you to be an effective puller, and if it happens be an efficient tank.

/DRK

High Lights

- Vorpal Blade
- Absorb Spells (Drain/Aspir)
- Slight MP boost
- Attack Boost
- Soul Eater, Last Resort
- Stun

Low Lights

- No dual wield
- No Accuracy Boost

This Sub job is a great sub job the Attack boosts offer a boost to DoT, MP is gained, as well as aspir for mobs that are aspirable. Soul Eater> Last Resort> WS beefs up our WS to a more respectable level. Vorpal Blade is a great WS used in conjunction with SE/LR. Stun is a very useful tool in a party, the ability to stop a mob from using a TP move is very efficient.

/BLU

Highlights

- Vorpal Blade
- MP Boost
- BLU job traits (blue magic combinations)
- Head butt

Low Lights

- No attack boost
- ½ skill in Blue magic makes spells hard to land
- No ACC boost
- no dual wield
This sub is a good choice if you require the need for more MP efficient cures. The Blue traits are very nice.
Again Vorpal Blade is a great WS for the sword wielding RDM. Head butt is a nice addition for stunning TP moves however it tends to fail fairly often due to the lower skill level.

/DNC

Highlights

- Sambas (Drain 2, Aspir)
- Waltz (Curing, Divine, Healing)
- Steps (Box, Quick Step)
- ACC boost
- EVA Boost

Low Lights

- No attack boost
- No mp boost
- No dual wield
- either enspells or sambas not both
- Waltzes share a timer

This Sub job is great for a more involved healing roll in the party. You can pretty well cure through on TP alone. The drawback however is the shared timer for waltzes, and you must either choose enspells or sambas. Very effective in a role where you are doing more healing than normal.

/PLD - Petryx

High Lights
- Auto Refresh
- Vorpal Blade, Red Lotus Blade
- Sheild Bash
- Flash
- Sentinel
- Cover
- Def Boost
- MP boost

Low Lights
- No Atk Boost
- No dual Wield
- No ACC bonus

PLD offers you quite the oposite of drk, defense boost is nice if you fin yourself taking damage. Cover allows you to take damage for a weaker ally or some one hurt. Flash will make an enemy miss his next attack good for multi hit TP moves or to just evade 1 attack. Auto refresh gves you 1 mp a tick which prolongs your mp pool. Not over all DoT type job but nice if you find yourself needing to take hits, or in a tanking situation.


Any of these are effective sub jobs, and situational all the same. Personally I alternate between NIN, DRK.
From my perspective DRK and NIN are the outright kings of RDM melee (just dinged DRK 37 this weekend). Depending on what you want to do both are effective. I would recommend the jobs as follows NIN>DRK>DNC>BLU. But again its all situational.

Equipment.

You should focus on ACC as much as possible, then ATK. If you cant hit the mob then your ATK means nothing.

My Setup: RDM/DRK
Main: Joyeuse (2x hit 45% of the time)
Off: Genbu Shield (for aesthetic value)
RNG: N/A
Ammo: Phantom tathlum
Head: Ogre Mask (+10 ATK)
Neck: Wivre Gorget (ACC +5)
Ear1: Accurate Earring (ACC +2)
Ear2: Accurate Earring (ACC +2)
Body: Nashrima Vest (+4 ACC, 2STR)
Hands: Wise Gloves (ACC+3)
Ring1: Woodsman (ACC +5)
Ring2: Woodsman (ACC +5)
Back: Amemt Mantle (ATK +10)
Waist: Life Belt (ACC +10)
Legs: Wise Barconi (ACC +1)
Feet: Ogre Ledelsens (ATK +10)
Total ACC +: 37, ATK +: 30

A better List looks like this:

Main: Joyeuse
Sub: Sentinel Shield
Head: Walahra Turban (+5% Haste)
Body: Scropion Harness (+10 Acc)
Hands: Dusk Gloves (+3% Haste, +5 Attack)
Legs: Volunteer Brias (+6 Acc)
Feet: Dusk Ledelsens (+2% Haste, +4 Attack)
Neck: Peacock Charm (+10 Acc)
Waist: Life Belt (+10 Acc)
Finger: Woodsman Ring (+5 Acc)
Finger: Woodsman Ring (+5 Acc)
Ear: Suppanomimi (+5 Sword Skill, enhances Duo Wield)
Ear: Brutal Earring (enhances Double Attack, Store TP +1)
Ammo: Tiphia Sting (+2 Acc, +2 Attack)
ACC+ : 48, ATK+ : 11, Haste + 10%, Sword Skill +5

Other notable gear: Fencer Ring + 5 enspell damage (latent 75%> Max HP, Hollow Earring +3 Enspell Damage.

As for dual wielding use Blau,/Joy for best results. Martial Anelace is a good choice if you cant afford the blau. Justice/Joy is probably the best in terms of DoT but I will talk about this later.

The Enspell in you.

Used properly enspells are a very powerful tool. Since the update the accuracy has increased dramatically meaning less resists. Testing off Doll mobs in Ru’Avitu (sp) its up to about 95% ACC with caped enhancing magic. Enspell damage is based off of you enhancing magic using this equation.

Enspells when Enhancing > 150: (Enhancing / 20) + 5
Enspells when Enhancing < 150: Square Root(Enhancing) - 1

Corresponding Date/Weather: +10% dmg, Corresponding Double Weather: +20% dmg. Effect of element day and weather will stack. Opposite day/weather will reduce the base damage (-10% day/weather, -20% double weather).

For example Player A has Caped enhancing magic (256)
With + 7 from enhancing torque and + 15 from Warlock Tights.
Total: 278

Palyer B has 121 enhancing skill

Player A:
278/20+5 = 18.9 > 19

Player B:
121(SQRT)-1 =10

* Please fell free to plug in your own numbers*

Damage over Time

DoT is the best way to play as a RDM melee. Here I will focus on a dual wielding Justice and Joyeuse. This is to represent the best overall DoT.

Ok I will assume that Player A is using Fencer Ring, and hollow earring for +8 to enspells

19+8 is 27

Player A has 27 Enspell Damage.

Player A
Joyeuse 224 delay
Justice 236 delay
Dual Weild 2 reduce delay of weapons by 15%

224*0.15= 33.6 or 190.4 delay
236*0.15= 35.4 or 200.6 delay

Combined delay is now 391

391/60 = 6s per swing 19 swings to earn 100% TP

In 24 seconds player A will Have 4 attempted attacks (8 with dual wield)
Player B will have 3
Player A is using J/J and both are able to double attack so

Joyeuse 4*1.45 = 5.8 (1-2 extra hits)
Justice 4*1.55= 6.2 (2 extra hits)

8+ 3 = 11
11*0.8= 8

Now calculating 95% enspell acc

8*0.95= 7
1 hit @ 30+1-27
7(30+27) = 399 + 31-57 = 430-456


This Is a basic step by step walk through to a typical battle and what you will be doing.
* I will be adding an indepth section on what I call over delay casting but I will get into that later*

Breif Battle Walkthrough (basic outline). (RDM/NIN)



1. enspel -Engage Mob - first swing
2. refresh self
3. second swing
4.haste <t>, dia
5. 3rd swing
6. refresh <t>
7. 4th swing
8. haste <t>
9. 5th swing
10. Para/slow <t>
11. 6th swing
12. cast as needed
13. 7th swing
14. Cast as needed
15. 8th swing
16. cast as needed- if mob dead prepare for next mob. If not continue with cycle

Conclusion

In conclusion, I would like to point out I am writing this in reply to a certain few peoples requests more my melee information. This guide does not endorse Melee over Backline it is just trying to provide an example that both are effective at any time. A properly equipped RDM can parse along side heavy DD’s like Dark Knight if the setting allows for it. But parses aside, it shows that RDM melee is an effective source of DoT. The only drawback to this job is the lack of weapon skill. It is curable with /DRK to a degree however you will lost out on additional enspell damage. I hope you enjoy this write up and find it useful. Please post any questions or comments and I will get back to them.

No mention of RDM/PLD? You get a slight MP boost, the three "extra" sword weaponskills, Auto Refresh, Shield Bash, and Flash (which is great for letting people reapply long-casting defenses). For solo purposes, that last point becomes how you reapply Stoneskin; additionally, you benefit from Shield Mastery and Sentinel when you solo as RDM/PLD. The downside is that PLD doesn't do a lot to make you actually better with your auto-attacks; it's more a case of the stats not being counterproductive. -- Pteryx

Why no mentioning of /WAR or /PLD?

Why no mentioning of /WAR or /PLD?

Wagering WAR is 18, PLD is 1 and WHM is still below sub level.

/PLD is 26, /WAR is 20, /WHM is 37 no mention of WAR or PLD because I have never used them in a melee setup, If anyone has Useful Info on WAR ill add it, Petryx is getting PLD stuff added because he said facts about it.

So when did WHM magically get caught up?

WAR - I was close, PLD not so much.

WAR is a good PVP sub. Provoke interupts spells and forces a target to focus on you when they might have been targeting someone else. Then there's Double Attack, Attack Bonus, Berzerk and Defender.

Berzerk's penalty can be worked off a little with Stoneskin and Phalnax, but its only a temporary measure.

Others have covered the pros of PLD and WAR has other similar perks.

Ive been steadily blitzing my subs, I got laid off from work cuz some strike in the states so I have a ton of free time. as It stands WHM 37, DRK 37, NIN 30, BLU 30, SCH 12 (died 5 times today cuz some fucking douchebag warrior) SMN 30, BRD 15, figure all will be 37 by this weekend (hopefully)
______________________________
added pld and war ty for the fine points petryx and bbq

Sorry, but
I do not wish for the potential flame fest that will erupt from this.
You can say what you like but mere words will not prevent this from happening. I think it's your duty to not get upset when people flame you if you really don't want this thread to degenerate.

No offense, I respect the OP's efforts to pioneer, but just what is really that different in post-03/08 RDM melee and pre-03/08 RDM melee?

The guide can be summed up like this:

"Post update, lowered En-spell resists now offer awesome accuracy previously unseen against exp level mobs, that is to say, T and higher."

"All other aspects and drawbacks to RDM melee still apply."

There have been a ton of guides written over the past 4-5 years, this update hasn't introduced anything worth re-writing the book over. The boons this update have brought--at best--warrant an additional paragraph in that book.

RDM melee is not based around doing large numbers at one time, but smaller numbers over time.

If this is true, then why not include subjob for melee as RDM/mage, like RDM/WHM, RDM/BLM... basically it trade off DoT for more tools and flexibility.

Doesn't spell casting and ranged attack always reset the auto attack timer?

I think people are taking this a little too seriously. I don't think even MrMageo intended this to be a serious play style, but rather just a quirky off-handed possibility of play when you're not doing anything particularly important. There are many reasons why rdm melee is not fantastically effective, but I don't know that they're super important, as there are many things in this game that are more done out of curiosity or habit than because it's particularly amazing (I.E. lvl 15 war with /nin sub...).

This really has no business erupting into a flame thread. This just isn't really worth it.

Doesn't spell casting and ranged attack always reset the auto attack timer?
I don't recall offhand if ranged attacks reset the attack timer, but spellcasting definitely does not; they just put the attack timer on hold while you're casting.


Icemage

I wasn't aware that RDM melee of any sort changed dramatically in the update that did not include any adjustments to any aspect of anything involving RDM melee. While anyone who frequents the RDM forums here knows that I am a huge proponent of RDM melee, nothing has changed in the last 2 weeks that wasn't already being discussed and covered months ago, the title is a little misleading.

I have been playing this game since It's NA release way back when.
(6 years now I think).

Try October of '03, less than 4.5 years ago. That drives me nuts when people do that.

My overall problems the this "guide" are that its not comprehensive, poorly organized, too "mathy" and that the OP admits what most people would have argued in the first place:

In most EXP PTs and alliance situations, RDM melee just isn't effective. This is especially at endgame, save for possible Salvage and Limbus scenarios.

Most of all, any good Enspells could do, the update changed things so SMN and SCH could make them more effective for other party members. The effect is now determined by the caster's Enhancing skill, not the target's. So in situations where a DNC isn't present, SCH and SMN can give a greater cumalative effect with the enspells than a RDM could give by themselves.

SE kicked RDM in the nads March 8th, and RDMs just kept smiling. Maybe you had Stoneskin up, but you'll feel it later.

My overall problems the this "guide" are that its not comprehensive, poorly organized, too "mathy" and that the OP admits what most people would have argued in the first place:

In most EXP PTs and alliance situations, RDM melee just isn't effective. This is especially at endgame, save for possible Salvage and Limbus scenarios.

Most of all, any good Enspells could do, the update changed things so SMN and SCH could make them more effective for other party members. The effect is now determined by the caster's Enhancing skill, not the target's. So in situations where a DNC isn't present, SCH and SMN can give a greater cumalative effect with the enspells than a RDM could give by themselves.

SE kicked RDM in the nads March 8th, and RDMs just kept smiling. Maybe you had Stoneskin up, but you'll feel it later.

I don't see a single thing in the update that affected RDM gameplay in the slightest(this isn't exactly a positive thing). Yes, a SCH and a SMN can now give party Enspells, SMN ones are barely 13 damage unresisted, a SCH could actually hit a decent 19. However, neither of these jobs have Refresh or 15% Haste, they aren't going to be taking RDM's spot in the party anytime soon, unless they feel like playing main healer, which is fine with me, they can have that spot. It frees me up to be a buffer/puller, not like most RDMs enjoy being stuck in the Pink Mage role to begin with.

SE kicked RDM in the nads March 8th, and RDMs just kept smiling. Maybe you had Stoneskin up, but you'll feel it later.
LOL! :)

It's true that RDM is now slightly less necessary for XPing in the 41+ range at least for the time being, since Scholar is currently the most common main job mage in the non-75 XP levels, and Scholars don't particularly "need" a RDM (though they still get some benefit if there's one present).

I'll add that I don't really see how much of anything has changed for RDM melee. RDM weaponskills without an EX-capable sub like /PLD or /DRK for Vorpal Blade aren't particularly amazing. Enspell damage is still laughable in an XP setting, even with the new improved accuracy on Enspells.

Mostly where I think RDM melee really shines is in solo or small group (2-4 players) going after specific targets like NMs. This, more than anything, is where the boost to Enspell accuracy makes the most difference.


Icemage

LOL! :)

It's true that RDM is now slightly less necessary for XPing in the 41+ range at least for the time being, since Scholar is currently the most common main job mage in the non-75 XP levels, and Scholars don't particularly "need" a RDM (though they still get some benefit if there's one present).

I'll admit there's probably better things to do with my strategems than do Accession + Enspells, but if there's no DNC present to override it with Sambas, I don't see the harm, especially now that SCH can viably use any sub and still access the needed WHM tricks via Addendum: White. Its just now that I can give enspells to a whole PT based on my own skills, its going to add to the party DoT more than just some RDM Enthundering himself and thwacking the mob with his sword.

As far as the sword goes, the native WS RDM gets aren't terribly amazing. I would know because COR gets the same exact sword skills. Thing is, I use that joytoy to feed a boomstick TP, I can now proc a drain effect and with the right amount of Store TP gear and buffs and I can pop a slug shot and usually have enough TP left over to toss out a cure. Compared to all that, enspells are so cool. :rolleyes:

The addition of SCH and DNC to FFXI is much more radical than the additions or RoZ and ToA jobs, designed to make PTs less dependant on "refreshers." I was hoping for a paradigm shift when COR, BLU and PUP came, but it never really happened, but with DNC and SCH it has and not only that, its made many jobs prior to WotG radically different. Its not going to hurt a RDM, BRD or COR's invite rate, but at the same time, they're no longer "needed" for every last thing in the game, which I consider a good thing.

Head butt is a nice addition for stunning TP moves however it tends to fail fairly often due to the lower skill level.


Interrupts spells almost 100% of the time though, and that was with a lvl 12 Blu sub vs EM mobs to a lvl 75 Drg.

DoT is the best way to play as a RDM melee. Here I will focus on a dual wielding Justice and Joyeuse. This is to represent the best overall DoT.

Ok I will assume that Player A is using Fencer Ring, and hollow earring for +8 to enspells

I will say Player B is a Dark Knight/WAR using Orichalum Scythe hitting @ 85% consistently for 150 damage.

For the purpose of this both players will not have haste

*note this is a theoretical comparison of DoT, not a comparison between RDM vs. DRK melee*


Problem with this comparison is that you have the Rdm fairly pimped out while the Drk isn't. With all the work that goes into getting a Hollow Earring I have to ask where is the Drk's Brutal Earring and Askar Korazin? You also aren't taking into effect Berserk, the fact that the Rdm will be eating sushi and the Drk will be eating meat dishes, which will skew the numbers more in the Drk's favor. The Drk also isn't using any of their spells by your comparison, while granted, neither are you, but a Drk's spells factor more into their damage than a Rdm's do with the Absorb spells.

Your comparison is highly biased by comparing a well geared Rdm vs a Drk without being as comparably well equiped, and this statement:

As you can see the well equipped RDM with enspells has dealt roughly the same amount of damage over the course of 24 seconds as the DRK.

Is highly inaccurate if you are wanting to make even a theoretical comparison of DoT. I would expect the gap to widen further once WS are brought into account.

The result is further biased since there are different accuracy forumlas for two handers vs one handers.

Just for comparison purposes, let's take a look at a hume lvl 75 rdm/nin and hume lvl 75 drk/war.

Rdm/nin has a max dex of 66, sword skill caps at 250
Drk/war has a max dex of 70, scythe skill caps at 276

50% of 66 = 33
75% of 70 + 26acc from higher skill = 78.5 =78 rounded down.

So a 78-33= 45 accuracy difference between the two of them.

There really ought to be more than a 5% accuracy difference between the two of them if that is the case.

I don't recall offhand if ranged attacks reset the attack timer, but spellcasting definitely does not; they just put the attack timer on hold while you're casting.

Ah, ok, I thought it was something like that. And if that's the case, then it throws off the OPs 'battle walkthrough' timer completely.

While it is true, MrMageo sounds like a broken record about melee RDMs, lol, flaming him over this, again and again, is kinda redundant. A few things I saw while reading this guide:

A few things he can add to his guide if he wishes.

/drk (listed as a Light Con) offers Stun.

I know he mentioned it in the paragraph below /drk, but meh, it’s a con.

/blu you can get Beast Killer, Auto Regen, Lizard Killer, Undead Killer and Resist Sleep.

/nin MP free & MP agro free Invisible/Sneak Spells for those hard to reach areas



As for the things I saw while reading the replies of others.

Meh, the only people I see getting kicked in the nuts is MrMageo. I see him getting bashed more than most people on this server.

While it is something he’s stating what subs he has atm, I’m sure he’ll update his little guide as time goes on and he’s able to try all his /subs while as a melee RDM. Plus I’m sure he’ll add more info as he gets some from the community, those few who will help him.

Plus I don’t recall anyone/anything stating on this particular forum that someone can’t post something they feel like sharing with the rest of the community. Or did I miss that somewhere when I signed up? So bashing someone is kinda…moot. IF that’s a real word…

Yeah the Headline is kinda misleading, but he never stated “The new Abilities given on the update on 3/08/08 to help a melee RDM”. So he’s sorta just saying, a new Guide, right? I dunno.

I personally don’t DD while in Merit Party or any Party on my RDM, mainly because I’m a Pink Mage atm. The only time I do DD is when I am coffer hunting, while we are hunting for NMs or helping others with missions.

Now if I had a WHM or SCH present who is Main heal, and I’m there to just REFRESH and HASTE…meh I might throw my sword or dagger around for fun. If the others don’t mind, which often times they won’t.

So in a nut shell what I’m trying to say is this. You don’t beat a retarded child, he can’t help it, same goes for MrMageo, he loves the idea of a DDing RDM in a party. Is he wrong? Some most would say Yes, others would Say No, but please stop beating a dead horse with the flames.

While it is true, MrMageo sounds like a broken record about melee RDMs, lol, flaming him over this, again and again, is kinda redundant. A few things I saw while reading this guide

So in a nut shell what I’m trying to say is this. You don’t beat a retarded child, he can’t help it, same goes for MrMageo, he loves the idea of a DDing RDM in a party. Is he wrong? Some most would say Yes, others would Say No, but please stop beating a dead horse with the flames.

I don't see anyone flaming anyone in this topic. If you consider countering and correcting information provided as flaming then that's a problem in and of itself. It's not that people are against melee Rdm, infact there are plenty of guides that show great examples of how, why, when and what is needed to excel at meleeing as a Rdm.

It's just when biased information and incorrect assumtions are used in something called a guide, people will step up and correct that information. And if someone considers that to be flaming then it's their problem, not the communities.

Well I'm also including a bit of the other posts in other threads as well, my bad, I should've mentioned that part too.

While It is true that the update didint offer us anything RDM particular. Enspells being more effective mean a great boost to our overall damage over time. Prior to this update enspells were very finiky, sometimes you could hit for consistent damage other times it was all over the map. All this update has done is made our Damage consistent, and thats a boost in my eyes.

As for my mini battle walk through it is accurate. With RDM/NIN using a Justice, Joy there is 6 seconds between attacks. Our longest spell casting @ 4 seconds (refresh), properly time you can get all your spells of between swings.

As for the RDM-DRK comparison. I have a hollow earring because being a RDM requires an utmost respect to gear. It is very expensive, and often takes alot of work to aqquire peices. Any RDM who has not spent an equal amount if not more on his/her melee set vs casting setup has no business even thinking about melee.
I have spent nearly 1.5mil on my gear so far and I am still missing a few key peices SH + PCC come to mind.

SubChoice wise, /BLM, nor /WHM do not offer optimal preformance as a melee sub. They simply lack any bonus' to melee. While it is true that RDM melee is not damage but DoT, it dosent hurt to extend that DoT as high as it can go.

As for its usefulness or effectiveness in a party, I agree that most situations require RDM to pick up a staff. However there are times when you want to get XP and can only find a handfull of people, sometimes you settle yourself for a WHM,RDM backline or other times you may have a RDM,RDM back line. In these situations where you are not 100% responsible for your parties maitnence, rdm melee is useful and effective.

This guide is mathy because without facts to back up my numbers, this could be taken as another whine thread. I chose to included enspell math, as well as DoT math to provide you with formulas to use for your own calculations.

For example PLAYER X wants to see how well he will melee, he uses the enspell chart to figure out his damage. He uses the delay to figure out is time between swings. The accuracy to find how many hits he will land. Its simply a tool for others to use.

In no way is Stun a slight con or a con at all. Stun offers the greatest tool outside dual weild from all the subs. A 100% garunteed lull in combat for the mob, enough to replae SS, enough to have someone escape, replace shadows, re apply sleep. Its probably the greatest utility tool a RDM melee can bring to a party.

Headbutt for me only goues off about 30% of the time and that is being generous, all though my sub is not 37 yet. However it still fails to proc even on EP, or TW's in certain areas. I dont know if blue magic works like BST sub or not but If it only proc's @30% on TW then I dont see it changing much over the next 7 levels.

As for the ACC comparison to dark admitedly I do not know much outside of what I see in parties. Id say 90% of the time they do no cast spells (on my server at least) When they dont sub SAM they are wiff machines. Missing an attack on them really hurts 16 seconds of no damage (in the above examples weapon choice.) Not tryig to over glorify RDM melee but a consistent 80% ACC over 6 second intervals (less if not dual weild) is more effective than a slightly more accurate drk who misses once and is doing no damage for 16 seconds.(prolly why DRKs dont get parties me thinks)



Planned Additions
- Moar Damage
- MACC Isues
- Macros

Planned Additions
- Moar Damage
- MACC Isues
- Macros

In a melee guide? Or do you mean the accuracy of enspells (resists and what not).

As for my mini battle walk through it is accurate. With RDM/NIN using a Justice, Joy there is 6 seconds between attacks. Our longest spell casting @ 4 seconds (refresh), properly time you can get all your spells of between swings.

But it's not. Spell casting, as confirmed by Icemage, PAUSES the auto-attack timer. So it's not that you can cast spells inbetween your 6 seconds of swing time, it's that spell casting *adds* the casting time of the spell to your swing. So if you swing, then cast a 4 second spell, it *adds* 4 seconds to that 6 seconds between swings, making your next hit come 10 seconds after your last attack round. Infact this is one of the biggest detractions to meleeing as a Rdm and Spellcasting as a Drk. Because the more spells they cast, the slower they swing.

As for the RDM-DRK comparison. I have a hollow earring because being a RDM requires an utmost respect to gear. It is very expensive, and often takes alot of work to aqquire peices. Any RDM who has not spent an equal amount if not more on his/her melee set vs casting setup has no business even thinking about melee.
I have spent nearly 1.5mil on my gear so far and I am still missing a few key peices SH + PCC come to mind.

As for the ACC comparison to dark admitedly I do not know much outside of what I see in parties. Id say 90% of the time they do no cast spells (on my server at least) When they dont sub SAM they are wiff machines. Missing an attack on them really hurts 16 seconds of no damage (in the above examples weapon choice.) Not tryig to over glorify RDM melee but a consistent 80% ACC over 6 second intervals (less if not dual weild) is more effective than a slightly more accurate drk who misses once and is doing no damage for 16 seconds.(prolly why DRKs dont get parties me thinks)

The point of their comments was that you were comparing a 'well equiped' Rdm with a poorly equiped Drk. And their numbers show just on base stats alone you as a Rdm have to overcome a 45 point accuracy difference when compared to a Drk. Your gear only offers you 31, so even *with* all your gear you still don't have the same accuracy as a Scythe wielding Drk so there's no way you could have so much higher Acc then them. If an endgame Drk, or any melee for that matter, is getting a less then 90% acc rate on EXP mobs then they're doing something wrong.

Add to that the fact a Drk can get far more Acc then you can from gear, while getting higher Damage per swing due to higher weapon Dmg, more Str, more Att, Abs spells and JAs that increase all of those things, and your numbers are fairly biased. And that's the point that was brought up.

And of course this is totally ignoring WS and haste gear.

But it's not. Spell casting, as confirmed by Icemage, PAUSES the auto-attack timer. So it's not that you can cast spells inbetween your 6 seconds of swing time, it's that spell casting *adds* the casting time of the spell to your swing. So if you swing, then cast a 4 second spell, it *adds* 4 seconds to that 6 seconds between swings, making your next hit come 10 seconds after your last attack round. Infact this is one of the biggest detractions to meleeing as a Rdm and Spellcasting as a Drk. Because the more spells they cast, the slower they swing.


For casting timer add to swing timer, what Icemage and Ziero has stated is correct. My experience as PLD and NIN tank also can confirm with that too, which those 2 jobs basically cast magic and melee most of time in general.

But it's not. Spell casting, as confirmed by Icemage, PAUSES the auto-attack timer. So it's not that you can cast spells inbetween your 6 seconds of swing time, it's that spell casting *adds* the casting time of the spell to your swing. So if you swing, then cast a 4 second spell, it *adds* 4 seconds to that 6 seconds between swings, making your next hit come 10 seconds after your last attack round. Infact this is one of the biggest detractions to meleeing as a Rdm and Spellcasting as a Drk. Because the more spells they cast, the slower they swing.

Spell casting does in no way pause, stop, skip the attack timer. If you cast a 3 second spell between the 6 second window, you will still swing at the 6 second interval. If you cast a 4 second spell and a 3 second spell you are at 7 seconds, and will attack at the 8th second of the interval.

Squeezing in spells is the only effective way to ensure that your melee ability and casting ability work hand in hand.

MACC in a melee guide yes, you are still responsible for maintaing enfeebles on the mob. Macroing in gear which raises acc without switching your weapon is an effective means for keeping your sword equipped. (Warlock Tabard, Enfeebling Torque, Wise Gear INT/MND accesories and gear.) The more MACC you stack on
the greater chance you have of sticking a full effect enfeebe without the aid of staves. Since Equip chains are instant and dont effect your TP (unless you swap weapon) and can be set to switch between attack cycles as well. Here is a Macro I use for a basic cast of Paralyze and Slow

Macro 1
/equip body "Warlock's Tabard"
/equip neck "Enfeebling Torque"
/equip ring1 "Hale Ring"
/equip ring2 "Aquamarine Ring"
/equip ear2 " Geist earring"
/equip legs "Warlock Tights"

Macro 2

/ma "Paralyze II" <t>

Macro 3

/ma "Slow II" <t>

Macro 4

/equip body "Narashima's Vest"
/equip neck "Wivre Gorget"
/equip ring1 "Woodsman's Ring"
/equip ring2 "Woodsman's Ring"
/equip ear2 "Accurate Earring"
/equip legs "Wise Baraconi"

That gives me +22 enfeebling skill +14 MND for the casting of slow and para, not as much mind as I would have on the backline But respectable non the less.

/equip body "Narashima's Vest"

Don't you mean Scorpion Harness? Otherwise it's an odd change from what you had before.

No i dont have a SH I need it along with, PCC, I had borrowed those in the past but thought is was obligatory i gave my current gear.

Also casting spells does not pause the delay, only using spells that go over the delay will cause a pause. Like I said in a 6 second delay you can cast refresh (the longest cast spell we have next to Stoneskin or nukes) @4 seconds. If you start casting during the animationof swinging you can fit it in with no dealy interuption. (also does not affect DA proc by joy).

Spell casting does in no way pause, stop, skip the attack timer. If you cast a 3 second spell between the 6 second window, you will still swing at the 6 second interval. If you cast a 4 second spell and a 3 second spell you are at 7 seconds, and will attack at the 8th second of the interval.
A post level 40 NIN can disprove it very clearly without dispute by spamming Ninjitsu while using with his Katana. The NIN can let all six Elemental: Ni throw at the mob one after and another without letting the Katana swing in between. (12 seconds of locking one round of attack)

Spell casting does in no way pause, stop, skip the attack timer. If you cast a 3 second spell between the 6 second window, you will still swing at the 6 second interval. If you cast a 4 second spell and a 3 second spell you are at 7 seconds, and will attack at the 8th second of the interval.

Squeezing in spells is the only effective way to ensure that your melee ability and casting ability work hand in hand.

Again, you are wrong in that respect. And there have already been two seperate people, besides myself, who confirmed this. I know for a fact that spell casting causes some sort of delay between melee swings, I just wasn't sure if it was just a pause or a complete reset of the timer. But I do know that when I start casting Utsu, my swings stop completely. And much like how Celeal posted, when I spammed my :Ni eles and enfeebles I didn't swing *at all*.

And casting spells has been a major hindrance for Drks meleeing as it does slow down their TP gain. And their delay is MUCH larger then a Joytoy with spells that are just as quick casting as many Rdm spells. Spell casting slows their TP gain down just like it slows down the TP gain of any casting melee.

...Casting spells has been a major hindrance for Drks meleeing as it does slow down their TP gain. And their delay is MUCH larger then a Joytoy with spells that are just as quick casting as many Rdm spells. Spell casting slows their TP gain down just like it slows down the TP gain of any casting melee.

This seems to me to be part of the reason why hybridizing job classes (ex: war/whm) generally won't work in this game in the first place - because FFXI is essentially a tactical turn based strategy game at it's core. What this means is that you're basically pigeonholed into doing one thing or another. Fighting or Running. Resting or Moving. Spellcasting or Autoattacking. I think it's a concept that is unfortunately flawed at it's core, to try and do too much at once. This game seems to reward more of filling a role than thinking outside the box. I'm not sure it's a wonderful game mechanic, but it's the one in place.

Of course, this isn't really an argument about the viability of RDM melee at large, or even whether they make effective DD's... I'll leave that up to the more edumacated folks here. Still, I'd be careful when you're trying to combine too much at once.

I am not wrong in that respect, If you cast a 4 second spell in a 6 second delay it does not affect your next swing. I wouldnt have included that if it wasnt factual. If you cast a spell or comonation of spells that exceeds the delay then it will pause the timer for the additional amount of seconds for the last spell to over ride the delay.

example

Player A

Starts casting refresh during the animation time elasped 0 seconds
Refresh casts time elasped 4 seconds.
Next sword swing, time elasped 6 seconds

Player B starts casting refresh during the animation time elasped 0 seconds
Refresh Casts time elasped 4 seconds
Player B starts castin haste time elasped 5 seconds
Haste casts time elasped 8 seconds
Next sword swing time elasped 11 seconds

What has happened is this

0 seconds @ first swing
8 seconds of casting
-4 from refresh since it falls in the window
+1 for cast delay
=
+5 to the delay of sword attack

If the sword would normally attack at the 6th second of battle, you now have to add in the delay from going over the delay. Since we have found it will take 8 seconds to cast both spells this is a +2 over the delay. Now because the pause effect takes in the full spell cast time as well thats an additional +3 from haste cast time. The +5 from casting over delay, is added to the 6 second delay resaulting in the next sword swing @ 11 seconds instead of 6 seconds.

^^

Fact

I think you misinterperet what I am saying, I am not saying you can attack while you cast, I can chain my spells together for a very legnthy amount of no swinging. If you time your spell casting to fit between the swings, It will not affect your next swing. However If you do over ride the timer the above goes into affect.

I think everyone here understands the scenario you are describing. I think what people would like is some proof (i.e screenshots) to back up your claims that it's true.

I lack the knowledge of screenshots, I cant take them without the text screen going away for some reason.

I don't get what the "example" is supposed to show. x_x Is that obtained under the same research methodology as:
DO a little research first ? ive spent 25+ hours doing research on this. [ ...]

AGI = WIND, FACT
Frost lowers a <t>'s AGI

AGI lowers natural delay
Yes? No? Maybe?

Then again, do I need to care?

AGI is affliated with the wind element, yes. So are Haste and March. That does not mean AGI gives a haste effect. Gear that gives you wind affinity doesn't give you haste, either. You posted speculation about AGI lowering delay (i.e. a haste) and have given no proof to support that claim.

AGI affects Evasion, Ranged accuracy, Quick Draw accuracy, it also acts as a modifier for various job abilities and weaponskills. It doesn't lower delay or haste by itself. If it did, all mithra and taru players would be the first to take notice.

I lack the knowledge of screenshots, I cant take them without the text screen going away for some reason.

No offense intended here but if you are proposing something that's against the generally accepted truth of how things work then you need screenshot proof, you can't just churn out more pseudo maths, start saying fact at the end of sentences and expect people to blindly accept it.

Screenshots: I did a quick search of the forum, apparently you need a third party program to keep the text on screenshots and the link below is to the site for the program that Taskmage recommended.

Clipper (http://www.varuosakeskus.ee/clipper/)

I refrain from using 3rd part software on the basis, I like my computer spyware free. As much as it may be a legit program unfourtunatly I dont trust 3rd party software. I am not trying to dodge the point by not providing a screen shot. I have a messenger program called xfire but can figure out how to change the key bindings. It takes SS of the game your on and is more trustworthy to me. Ill try and find how to change the key bindings and post a SS or 2, just bear with me I am not very computer friendly in things like this.

The chat log in FFXI does not have timestamp in it, so screenshot does not show anything.

Casting slows down melee attack, that is why S-E lower the casting time for DRK's Absorb-Spells from 4 seconds to 2 seconds, in order to encourage DRK to cast more often.

Headbutt for me only goues off about 30% of the time and that is being generous,

I'm not saying that it will stun the mob, I'm saying that it will interrupt the spell most of the time for me so far regardless of skill, bit of a difference.

Your gear only offers you 31, so even *with* all your gear you still don't have the same accuracy as a Scythe wielding Drk so there's no way you could have so much higher Acc then them.

He didn't say that he had higher accuracy than the Drk did, but his assumption that the Rdm will have an 80% acc rate and the Drk will have an 85% acc rate is a bit off, especially with that much difference in raw accuracy before gear.

And out of curiosity:

When you do use a sub that allows you to use it, what are your normal Vorpal Blade numbers? And what sub do you use to acheive those numbers? When using a sub that doesn't allow you to use it, what other WS do you use and what is the amount of damage you normally do with them?

Also this has me a bit puzzled:

Shadows allow you to be an effective puller, and if it happens be an efficient tank.

I'm not seeing anything in rdm/nin's aresenal that would let them be an effective tank, just how do you go about it?

I refrain from using 3rd part software on the basis, I like my computer spyware free. As much as it may be a legit program unfourtunatly I dont trust 3rd party software.

Adobe has some stuff that can be used to make movies, and I believe they can be used to record your FFXI stuff in the background, which can then have screen shots taken of them if you are so inclined.

I general use sub DRK when i plan on using vorpal blade for soul eater and last resort.

Keep in mind these numbers are taken off of Dolls and Pots in Sky.

I have 2 macros I use for WS with vorpal blade

/ja "Soul Eater" <me>
/wait 2
/ws "Vorpal Blade" <t>

This usually has me hiting Vorpal Blade @ 350-450 (depending on amount of hits it does)

/ja "Last Resort" <me>
/wait 2
/ws "Vorpal Blade" <t>

This has me doing about 300-400 (again depending on amount of hits)

When I free WS vorpal I usually hit 250-350 (pretty pathetic but rdm ws are)

When I sub ninja I generally only use Savage Blade or Fast Blade

Savage Blade: 450+ (@ 300 TP ; ;)
Fast Blade: 250-350 (@200 TP)

*these #'s are rounded down to the nearest 50*

Personally I try to refrain from SC until I am able to contribute to a SC, say as a
2nd for a SAM, in which I generally POP a Savage Blade for Kasha. RDM WS's are very pathetic even when boosted by other abilities (last night I hit 750 vorpal on an EP woooooo >.>)

As for RDM/NIN as a tank it needs establishment of massive hate. When I have done it (nin still underleveled ATM but thats besides the point) is only in sky where I straight Tankthe Despot in a 8 person alliance. It requires an instant boost of hate and the way we have been doing it which has been effective.

Whm/BLMx1
BLM/WHMx2
THF/NIN x2
SAM/warx1
RDM/nin x1
RDM/whmx1
the key components are Sata WS's and accomplice

SAM opens with Tachi:Gekko
THF acomplices SAM, SATA's Evisceration and closing SC Darkness on to me
I burst with Blizzard 3
SAM follows with Tachi: Gekko
THF Uses Accomplice, on SAM takes his hate, SATA's Evisceration Darkness Chain on to me again
I burst with Blizzard 3
From there I simply cast sleep,bind,blind,dispel every minute or so. The continuing onslaught of the above makes Despot almost impossible to pry off me.

Refresh, keeps me going fairly well and the WHM usually tosses me a devotion when I hit 200 MP. At times for convert One THF will accomplice me grab attention, let me convert, DS 4 from WHM followed by a Sata back on me then back into the thick of it.

I also wear about +12 eminity gear which helps me hold hate even with missed swings.

RDM/NIN tanking is very situational, but is very effective if you can provide a competent strategey for it. Looking outside the Box helps our sky shell to be able to farm multiple locations at once. When PLD's and NIN's are busy why not use arguably the greatest damage mitigation job in the game to do the small things.

You can make the arguement that despot is soloable, however the faster he goes down the quicker we can move on to the next target in our cycle.

RDM/NIN tanking on its own is a little more difficult and dangerous. It requires you to cast elemental ninjutsu, followed by a teir 3, it burns about 360 MP to establish hate, once it is established, you need to spam bind,sleep,blind,dispel. Using Cures to cure yourself, It assaults your MP pool pretty bad but If you keep your head on your shoulders you can go 5-6 fights in a row before convert stabs you in the back.

I'm not seeing anything in rdm/nin's aresenal that would let them be an effective tank, just how do you go about it?
Not for exp parties, but for special fights it has two things going for it, IMO:
1. Damage mitigation: Stoneskin, Phalanx, damage reduction gear (Genbu's Shield, some back piece, Jelly Ring, etc.), and the very potent Fast Cast + Utsusemi combo.
2. Enmity tools: Blind and Bar spell spamming for effective VE maintenance, Cures for CE/VE, Dispel for minor spike, and Convert + Cure IV's for bigger CE spike.

Note that this isn't a solo act; it usually require party/alliance support, especially BRD(s) and healer to remove status effects, to pull off. (Some TA WS would help, too.) I think. Gear wise, lot's of Haste, and enmity in slots don't have haste or damage mitigation gears for. Probably some MDB/resist gear on macros or full time, depending on fighting what.

There's speculation that NIN/RDM or RDM/NIN may be able to become some sort of cap enmity tanks with the right support and methodology--they may be able to max out CE and maintain VE at or near cap, allowing DDs to go full out without any worry.

* * *

Of course, none of that has anything to do with RDM melee; I'd imagine the only reason for a RDM/NIN tank to engage is to get some chance of parrying, and not actually to hit the critter.

ya normally when I tank even with my cap sword and merits I cant hit worth a crap, I would use just an earth staff if I didnt have genbu's Shield. However I still believe even missed attacks add to eminity. Haste gear is nice to have, however not specifically required. Warlock Chapeau/Deulist Tabard is a must as it let you fire off spells quicker. Eminity Gear is needed for any tank (which still leads me to belive why blink tanking is so prefered) RDM is able to equip the 3rd most eminity + Gear behind PLD and WAR which gives us a decent amount to chose from +12 IIRC.

I only included the fact that its an ok tank because at times I find I steal hate from a NIN tank after I WS and Burst the SC. I know it is not tank persay but you can find your self taking a few hits every few rounds depending when you drop the SC+MB.

Trying to compile macros sucks, took me 30 minutes to record just my first line of melee macro's I'll have them posted soon hopefully tomorrow sometime.

I will also include list of +SKILL, MACC gear you will need to use in space of the staves that will be later in the week.

NIN dinged 37 about 20 minutes ago ^^ thank god. Im glad I could ride along with my LS mate and his PLD, got to give NIN/BLM a ride, was pretty fun justa breif into it to not get off topic.

Droping a Huton followed by blade: RIN > Avalanche axe and poping a Hyoton (followed by rest of cycle), was a lot of fun, expensive but enjoyable and worth more damage then my lolkatanas at that lvl.

ya normally when I tank even with my cap sword and merits I cant hit worth a crap, I would use just an earth staff if I didnt have genbu's Shield. However I still believe even missed attacks add to eminity. Haste gear is nice to have, however not specifically required. Warlock Chapeau/Deulist Tabard is a must as it let you fire off spells quicker. Eminity Gear is needed for any tank (which still leads me to belive why blink tanking is so prefered) RDM is able to equip the 3rd most eminity + Gear behind PLD and WAR which gives us a decent amount to chose from +12 IIRC.
Say what?

Uh... seriously... just... no.

http://images.wikia.com/ffxi/images/7/76/Aegishjalmr.png
http://images.wikia.com/ffxi/images/6/6c/Myochin_Sune-Ate_Plus_1.jpg
http://images.wikia.com/ffxi/images/2/2e/Myochin_Kote_Plus_1.jpg

That right there shows +14 enmity, not counting things like Hades Earring, Mermaid Rings, Warwolf Belt, etc. that many jobs can use.

You seriously, seriously, SERIOUSLY need to do your homework before you make uninformed statements like this.


Icemage

I have +30 Enmity as PLD. And Sometimes I have trouble holding hate post 70.

I like to think of myself as a good tank, but when the WARs let lost with 1K plus Raging Rushes, it urks me that I have to Cure Bomb to get hate back.

Then again, to be fair, they told me that since I'm a good tank, they felt comfortable going all out.

:-/

And to dispute your "casting time" theory, if that were the reason, then you wouldn't see an influx of melee in TP burns who don't want to take the time out to cast Utsusemi, because "it throws off the parser." They'd rather takes hits to the face and be down in Red HP, knowing that someone is going to either take hate from them or just knock off a huge chunk of HP from the mob and kill it.

God dang MP sinks..

Im not debating wether or not PLD or WAR make better tanks, and I am not saying RDM is the epitemy of tanking. It is situational and possible. SAM does not have the kind of damage mitigation PLD/WAR/RDM/NIN have so I would never ask a sam to tank anything ahead of one of those 4 jobs.

I seriously doubt that melee know how to properly cast spells, with the exception of a good NIN or PLD.

As for the casting technique itself you must cast at the start of the attack animation(as soon as your charecter moves to swing). As the game logs your hits before it shows them, the delay caused by the animation is instead used with spell casting. Doing it at this time and this time only resaults in uninterupted attack cycles. If you do it after the start of the animation (after the first hit, or during the second hit) The delay caused by the animation resaults in additional carry over of spell casting prolonging the next attack. Basically your having the game preform 2 functions at the same time, resaulting in zero delay caused by spells.

Im not debating wether or not PLD or WAR make better tanks, and I am not saying RDM is the epitemy of tanking. It is situational and possible. SAM does not have the kind of damage mitigation PLD/WAR/RDM/NIN have so I would never ask a sam to tank anything ahead of one of those 4 jobs.
Seigan + Third Eye say hello.

RDM is a decent enough defensive job, especially when /NIN or /BLU, and there are indeed times when it can pay off (as evidenced by Square-Enix's amusing little Absolute Virtue trailer), but you're not backpedalling fast enough from your claim of RDM having the "3rd most enmity gear". Are you going to provide some proof that RDM has more enmity gears available than Samurai, or would you like to retract your claim?

I seriously doubt that melee know how to properly cast spells, with the exception of a good NIN or PLD.
I have no idea where you come up with this stuff. 95% of my HNMLS consists of people with at least 3-5 jobs at level 75, most with a mix of job types. And pretty much everyone in my LS knows how to maintain Utsusemi.

As for the casting technique itself you must cast at the start of the attack animation(as soon as your charecter moves to swing). As the game logs your hits before it shows them, the delay caused by the animation is instead used with spell casting. Doing it at this time and this time only resaults in uninterupted attack cycles. If you do it after the start of the animation (after the first hit, or during the second hit) The delay caused by the animation resaults in additional carry over of spell casting prolonging the next attack. Basically your having the game preform 2 functions at the same time, resaulting in zero delay caused by spells.
Please. Stop. Posting. Garbage. That. You. Have. Not. Properly. Tested.

Attack delay is calculated on the server side. What your client does has very little to do with when your character attacks; the only thing that can sometimes hose you is client-side animation delay preventing you from initiating other actions while you're still in the middle of a spellcasting animation, but that in no way affects your attack cycles as far as the server is concerned, except insofar as the act of spellcasting itself puts a hold on your attack timer.


Icemage

As for the casting technique itself you must cast at the start of the attack animation(as soon as your charecter moves to swing). As the game logs your hits before it shows them, the delay caused by the animation is instead used with spell casting. Doing it at this time and this time only resaults in uninterupted attack cycles. If you do it after the start of the animation (after the first hit, or during the second hit) The delay caused by the animation resaults in additional carry over of spell casting prolonging the next attack. Basically your having the game preform 2 functions at the same time, resaulting in zero delay caused by spells.
Regardless how the game's client or server manage the delay/timer, all clients synchronize their game's clock with the server. MrMageo, since you are not the ones who implements FFXI, what you stated, are your own assumptions.

There is nothing wrong with RDM's melee, but there are stuff that needs to be corrected in your post.

OK, I finally sat and read this thread fully against my better judgement.

I usually stay out of threads like this because there is so much stupid shit put out in so many 'guides' and I avoid flaming people on forums.

That said, don't take this personally, but Jesus H. Fucking Balls.

As for the RDM-DRK comparison. I have a hollow earring because being a RDM requires an utmost respect to gear. It is very expensive, and often takes alot of work to aqquire peices. Any RDM who has not spent an equal amount if not more on his/her melee set vs casting setup has no business even thinking about melee.
I have spent nearly 1.5mil on my gear so far and I am still missing a few key peices SH + PCC come to mind.

Main: Joyeuse (2x hit 45% of the time)
Off: Genbu Shield (for aesthetic value)
RNG: N/A
Ammo: Phantom tathlum
Head: Ogre Mask (+10 ATK)
Neck: Wivre Gorget (ACC +5)
Ear1: Accurate Earring (ACC +2)
Ear2: Accurate Earring (ACC +2)
Body: Nashrima Vest (+4 ACC, 2STR)
Hands: Wise Gloves (ACC+3)
Ring1: Woodsman (ACC +5)
Ring2: Woodsman (ACC +5)
Back: Amemt Mantle (ATK +10)
Waist: Life Belt (ACC +10)
Legs: Wise Barconi (ACC +1)
Feet: Ogre Ledelsens (ATK +10)
Total ACC +: 37, ATK +: 30

I'm not trying to be rude here, but your setup is OK at best. You could be getting a lot more of every vital stat by changing some things around, you have a good while to go, so don't talk about other people not being able to discuss RDM without certain gear setups.

This is not an attack on you, but many of the RDMs who frequent these forums, especially the ones who legitmately discuss melee RDM on a regular basis, include myself and Arkaine for starters have much better melee sets than this, so avoid talking down to people in terms of gear.

Main: Joyeuse
Sub: Sentinel Shield
Head: Walahra Turban (+5% Haste)
Body: Scropion Harness (+10 Acc)
Hands: Dusk Gloves (+3% Haste, +5 Attack)
Legs: Volunteer Brias (+6 Acc)
Feet: Dusk Ledelsens (+2% Haste, +4 Attack)
Neck: Peacock Charm (+10 Acc)
Waist: Life Belt (+10 Acc)
Finger: Woodsman Ring (+5 Acc)
Finger: Woodsman Ring (+5 Acc)
Ear: Suppanomimi (+5 Sword Skill, enhances Duo Wield)
Ear: Brutal Earring (enhances Double Attack, Store TP +1)
Ammo: Tiphia Sting (+2 Acc, +2 Attack)
ACC+ : 48, ATK+ : 11, Haste + 10%, Sword Skill +5

This really is not that desirable of a set for anything over EM. You're seriously underestimating the amount of Acc+ that RDM needs before it is viable to move to a Haste build, and the Attack/STR of this set is pitiful. A 'better' set can easily hit +50 acc and +59~ Attack with a decent chunk of STR thrown in, and probably cost less than this and be easier to obtain.


I also wear about +12 eminity gear which helps me hold hate even with missed swings.


While the amount of emnity needed can vary depending on setup/execution, this is nowhere near enough to be taken seriously for tanking, especially with this:
RDM/NIN tanking on its own is a little more difficult and dangerous. It requires you to cast elemental ninjutsu, followed by a teir 3, it burns about 360 MP to establish hate, once it is established, you need to spam bind,sleep,blind,dispel. Using Cures to cure yourself, It assaults your MP pool pretty bad but If you keep your head on your shoulders you can go 5-6 fights in a row before convert stabs you in the back.


If you are at all using Ninjutsu or Tier III nukes as a RDM/NIN tank, you're doing it very wrong. Refresh's 3/tick alone is enough to nearly be self-sufficient, if you have 5/tick from Dalmy/Chapeau then you really shouldn't need further support in terms of MP. If you do, you're really not doing things correctly.

Seriously your going to say I am tanking incorectly ? You just started to tank ive been doing it for a while now. I think I know how to hold hate from melees and mages TYVM. You were holding hate from a WHM while the rest of your army beat on the adds. So please before you say I am doing it wrong try tanking on something that is being pummeled to death from all sides and still hold the hate.

As for that 2nd equip set up It is better than mine, I hit 80% on Pots and Dolls, and about 75% on colibri. That set has me smoked in terms of ACC, by about 11 which equates to an aditional 5-10% ACC. While yes more ACC is good, more swings Is paramount to DoT, so I dont see haste as a bad thing.

I wasnt talking down to people in terms of gear I simply said It is very expensive, you'll need to put as much if not more money into melee gear then you did with mage gear. If you took that as offensive I'm sorry. I lost a bunch of my gear to Lord Docster before he left garuda, he borrowed several peices of gear for a fight then hoped servers. Most notebly my SH, and PCC which I am now trying to replace. (0/6 in UO sucks dick)

Im not offering a end all way to play RDM as a Melee There are many different ways to go about, ATM id say i 75-80% of the full potential. Which is 75-80% more than the majority of people that talk about RDM melee like they know something about it.

All the information I have has been tested a ton of times, every time i get a new peice of weaponry I go test my cast timing because it throws it off. So yes I know I can cast and not delay my sword swings. I tested the rigors of Tanking as RDM/PLD in campaign, Try tanking there and holding hate while 12 othe people beat on the mob. Its good practice for learning all your hate control techniques which included magic bursting.

Im not trying to re write the book I am offering "MY" experince when it comes to RDM melee. Ive been doing it off and on for about 3 years, and know what I am talking about in regards to it. There are infinite ways you can combine gear to be effective I am not going to list every possible way to gear ones self, its meerly a guide line, a building block if you will. A reference point as to what has worked for someone else and what could possibly work for you.

As for the SAM thing ill concede the point it may get more +Enimity gear then RDM, but i still stand firm that a RDM should tank certain situations ahead of a SAM.

Everything I put is situational, much like our job it various from what we equip to what subjob we use, this isnt a you must rdm or your lol post. It is a reference tool to how to do it affectively.

Again I will talk about the spell cast/ melee thing.

It does not reset or pause your timer. The calculations still go through. If you cast over your delay It simply restarts the timer @ 0. You may notice a pause where you dont attack, but it is just the timer catching up from the skip cause by the spell. alternativle look at it like this

Attack 0 seconds
Refresh 4 second cast

-4,-3,-2,-1, 0,1,2 (spell cast timers)
0, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 (weapon delay)

the delay that appears to be the "Pause" in the timer is acctually not a pause but a re counting of time. so to speak. If the cast timer is within the bounds of the delay it affects the next swing by 2 seconds or 4+2 = 6, since there is a 6 second delay there is virtually no effect, save a second or 2 for operator error.

*This is based of timing your spell casting to the exact time you will swing which is very hard and meticulous*

now lets do it with haste and refresh
haste 3 seconds, refresh 4 seconds

-4, -3, -2, -1, 0, 1, -3, -2, -1, 0, 1, 2 (timers with spells)
0, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11 (delay duration)

Here you see the delay again
refresh rests the timer to -4 count it up to +2 would be the interval of the next swing. However you casted Haste in its place, reseting the clock to -3, now you need to tack on the delay interuption of +5 (-3 for spell, 2 for the over ride of delay) , puting you back at +2. You see now @ +2 you are acctually at 11 seconds instead of 6 seconds like you normally would have been.

*Again assuming you cast with your first swing. Also assumed you ran Refresh/Haste back to back*

You can go out and try it for yourself, get your delay to 6 seconds and try it. With spells that fall under your delay you will get no "real" change, It will run it the same as it normally would, with spells that fall over your delay it will be paused.

Lets look at single handing the joytoy, its got a delay of 3.73

refresh

-4,-3,-2,-1,0,1,2
0, 1, 2 , 3, 4, 5, 6

Since refresh is a spell that runs over the delay, the count is pushed 2 seconds back from cast to sword swing.

Using haste

-3,-2,-1,0,1,2
0, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5

This spell is really finicky and pretty much impossible to squeeze in, I have done it once and that was with a stop watch to get a feel for the timing. More than likeley this on will go off at the 1 second interval. However considering the delay this does make sense.

Okay, seriously folks? Why am I still the only one ignoring this guy?

Seriously your going to say I am tanking incorectly ? You just started to tank ive been doing it for a while now. I think I know how to hold hate from melees and mages TYVM. You were holding hate from a WHM while the rest of your army beat on the adds. So please before you say I am doing it wrong try tanking on something that is being pummeled to death from all sides and still hold the hate.

You don't need to be a WHM to know that Cure IV spam is playing the job wrong, and you don't need to be a PLD to know how hate mechanics work.

Also, you missed the part where I continued to tank the rest of the fights after the full alliance joined in, without trouble holding hate, and this is without emnity gear. I lost hate to DD's exactly 4 times in those fights, and 2 of them were because I was on the ground KO'd, the other 2 were to very large Chi Blasts, and I regained it quickly.

You could generate the same amount of hate as a Thunder III with just a few Blind casts, in not much more time and for a fraction of the MP costs, telling someone to nuke w/ Tier III's for hate is just bad tanking advice. I haven't done it much because my LS has good tanks and RDMs aren't generally needed to tank, but they let me try it finally when we were short. That doesn't mean I'm unfamiliar in the slightest with how hate works and what is effective for getting the most of it in a hurry.

As for that 2nd equip set up It is better than mine, I hit 80% on Pots and Dolls, and about 75% on colibri. That set has me smoked in terms of ACC, by about 11 which equates to an aditional 5-10% ACC. While yes more ACC is good, more swings Is paramount to DoT, so I dont see haste as a bad thing.

Unless you miss 30% of them. If you aren't already hitting over 85%, switching out Acc for 10% Haste is actually netting you less DoT, especially when you're giving up a chunk of Atk as large as 40 to do it. There's more to DoT than swinging often. Again if this is your idea of 'good' then go for it, but it's not mathematically correct and bad advice to do so.

And don't think we're picking on you, pretty much anyone of us who has posted RDM guides has had them picked apart here, that's why you post them on forums.

Wow good input YM you are on your game today. I dont even know how to answer that question. Maybe It is because your butthurt from what I said in the refresh 2 post. Maybe Its because people dont really care, I know I dont. Why dont you go troll along in someone elses forum or head over to all so you can karma bomb people who speak indiferntlly to what you feel is right. If you want to ignore me why come to my threads, It's pretty simple.

It's like Evion is all grown up and level 75 now.

RDM is able to equip the 3rd most eminity + Gear behind PLD and WAR which gives us a decent amount to chose from +12 IIRC.

Not true, I can hit +13 enmity that Rdm can't touch, then I can also use the +enmity accessories.

I seriously doubt that melee know how to properly cast spells, with the exception of a good NIN or PLD.

I am a melee with only one job to lvl 75 and with neither of those two jobs leveled above 15 and I know damn well how to properly cast spells >.>

As for the casting technique itself.....

The delay of a scythe is a bit over 8 seconds in length. It would be easy to cast just about any spell inbetween swings according to your theory. However casting spells as a Drk does increase scythe delay even if the spell was used as you say you should cast. Go to any Drk forum and ask them, it's been proven a long time ago that casting spells does increase weapon delay.

I tested the rigors of Tanking as RDM/PLD in campaign, Try tanking there and holding hate while 12 othe people beat on the mob.

Tanking in Campaign is absurdly easy because almost no one else is trying to get hate, that isn't a real test.

So please before you say I am doing it wrong try tanking on something that is being pummeled to death from all sides and still hold the hate.


It's a pity that you're on a different server because I'd like to see just how well you hold hate against a real DD, and how well this rdm/dnc of yours works.

As for the SAM thing ill concede the point it may get more +Enimity gear then RDM, but i still stand firm that a RDM should tank certain situations ahead of a SAM.


Sam/dnc with a Soboro makes for a sick tank, I may disagree with you there.

As i stated multiple times throught my post RDM is Not a DD, adding attack is redundant to adding ACC and haste. The more you hit and the faster you hit are the keys to RDM melee not hiting, for 50+25. Minimum 30 damage is all you need to be effective. I am pushing 40 with my attack gear (str+ merits) I would happily exchange my ATK gear for Haste gear if it meant I was hitting 10% faster.

As for tanking, yes blind, bind, sleep, etc are very good hate tools. But if your able to drop a Burst on a mob why wouldnt you. If you look at my post I showed its what works in my setup, I didnt say Its what works all the time. RDM/NIN is mighty nice tank, but RDM/PLD is even better. But I wont get into that until there is a dedicated RDM tanking topic. Hell RDM/WAR could out tank a RDM/NIN.

Okay, seriously folks? Why am I still the only one ignoring this guy?


Because I don't want new Rdm coming to these forums and not seeing SOME kind of discussion about these topics.

Maybe It is because your (Edited for your protection!) from what I said in the refresh 2 post.

Kindly back off a bit. It has already been well established that you are making some wild claims with little proof backing them up which greatly reduce your credibility, so don't be surprised when someone makes that kind of a comment.

I was holding through Tornado II, Aeroaga, and everything else just fine, it's the same rules as every other tank. If a BLM drops a Burst II 3 seconds into a fight after a PLD just started building hate, hey guess what? Dead BLM, and a RDM casting Thunder III would not have made the difference.

And I'd loooooove to see you tank a real mob as /WAR. RDM/PLD is great for JoLove, but kind of useless outside of that. Get us some shots of you tanking Sky Guardians, Sea Jailers, or HNM as /WAR.

RDM/PLD is great for JoLove, but kind of useless outside of that.

I actually intend to prove this wrong, but I'm never going to make any outrageous claims about it. >_>

I actually intend to prove this wrong, but I'm never going to make any outrageous claims about it. >_>

WHY MUST YOU BE THE ANTI-ME YM???!!!

If I meet you IRL one day we're having a breakdance battle to settle things once and for all.

Get us some shots of you tanking Sky Guardians, Sea Jailers, or HNM as /WAR.

Even PLDs don't tank /WAR anymore.

/WAR would be used solely for party tanking tyvm although Im sure with the appropriate set up It could possibly tank bigger things. Id take PLD over NIN any day of the week once i get sentinel and flash. Sentinel convert cure 4x2 thanks for comming out.

WHY MUST YOU BE THE ANTI-ME YM???!!!

If I meet you IRL one day we're having a breakdance battle to settle things once and for all.

Elvaan RDM/DRK DD versus a Tarutaru RDM/PLD Tank . . .

Yep, breakdance battle seems like the perfect way to settle the dispute between such polar opposites.

/WAR would be used solely for party tanking tyvm although Im sure with the appropriate set up It could possibly tank bigger things. Id take PLD over NIN any day of the week once i get sentinel and flash. Sentinel convert cure 4x2 thanks for comming out.

So what do you do during the other 10 minutes?

edit: I thought you were still talking about party tanking. The conversation jumps around so much in here.

/WAR would be used solely for party tanking tyvm although Im sure with the appropriate set up It could possibly tank bigger things. Id take PLD over NIN any day of the week once i get sentinel and flash. Sentinel convert cure 4x2 thanks for comming out.

RDM/PLD for tanking instead of RDM/NIN, eh? I'd like to see you try RDM/PLD on Kirin or Byakko. :biggrin: Get someone in your LS to capture that into a movie and post it on YouTube... (Don't worry, won't be a lot of work; it'll be a short video, after all.)

Not to be a grammar police but if you want us to take you a bit more seriously or with more credibility at least stop typing shorthanded. We're all making some form of effort.

Odd to hear you say you cannot afford a Scorpion Harness but yet have 2 pieces of Zenith gear. But then again I suppose when did you get them since prices started falling. A Scorpion Harness is what, 200k?

On top of all that, IfritnoItazura is right. RDM/PLD on anything "big" won't get you very far either. Sure, you can hold hate, but not when something is biting you for 300-400 per hit, double/triple attacks.

EDIT: The RDM/PLD reference is not intended for the Jailer of Love comment.

You know, I was originally just going to post a criticism, but this thread has gone on long enough without some empirical PROOF.

MrMageo would have you believe that spellcasting only interrupts attack cycles if you happen to be in the middle of a spellcasting animation when you're "supposed" to attack.

Let me henceforth lay down some ownage.

I just went to Eastern Altepa Desert as WHM75/BLM37 with no weapon or Haste gear equipped (only gears equipped are a Noble's Tunic and Herald's Gaiters for convenience). No Haste spell active, so my barehanded attack should be delay 480, or 8 seconds:

http://img02.picoodle.com/img/img02/4/3/19/f_DELAYproof1m_8adea1f.jpg (http://www.picoodle.com/view.php?img=/4/3/19/f_DELAYproof1m_8adea1f.jpg&srv=img02)

I then did a control test to make sure that my H2H delay was indeed as expected.

http://img33.picoodle.com/img/img33/4/3/19/f_DELAYproof2m_92b9bd2.jpg (http://www.picoodle.com/view.php?img=/4/3/19/f_DELAYproof2m_92b9bd2.jpg&srv=img33)

Now watch what happens to my attack timers when I cast Repose (4.5 seconds base cast time) right after an attack cycle:

http://img01.picoodle.com/img/img01/4/3/19/f_DELAYproof3m_8071606.jpg (http://www.picoodle.com/view.php?img=/4/3/19/f_DELAYproof3m_8071606.jpg&srv=img01)

As you can see, I launched a H2H attack some time between 6:09:56 and 6:09:58.

I started casting Repose at 6:10:00 (2 seconds later)

I finished casting Repose several seconds later (allowing for message lag) - but still WELL before the next attack should have gone off.

The next attack occurs some time between 6:10:11 and 6:10:13 - 13 to 17 seconds after the first attack.

Hence, Repose added several seconds to my attack cycle. As I mentioned previously, spellcasting puts your attack timer "on hold" while you are casting.

This is my proof.

Well, MrMageo? The ball is in your court.


Icemage

lol. Brilliant, Icemage. Just brilliant.

I wonder if the OP is going to:
A) Back peddle and say he was misunderstood, his client must have been lagged when tested this, or just trivialize the whole issue.
B) Pretend this little gaffe never happened and continue to act as if he's the authority on all things FFXI in other threads.
C) Go on a big rant on how everyone's picking on him and is somehow "butthurt" and etc.
D) A little from column A, a little from column B, a little from column C...

Must be tough writing a RDM melee guide without any understanding of how spell casting and melee stuff interact with one another. :biggrin:

Indeed so it seems however lets have a look here we will just use your logs.

Ice mage Hits SB @ :59
Ice mage Repose @ :00
Cast of repose @ :08

uh oh thats a problem

the next attack was supposed to happen @ 07

-8,-7,-6,-5,-4,-3,-2,-1,0 , 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8
1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17

HM crazy 15 seconds after your first swing you hit the 2nd swing Just like I said would happen if you over ran the delay timer which you did at :07
:59 + :15 = :14 (sometime between :13 - :17 as you put it)


You launched you H2H attack some time between :59 and :00

:59 + 8 puts you at :07
:00 start cast
:between :08-:09
Making the casttime :8's

so you went over the delay timer with your cast. Making your post completely redundant to what I state. Next time try dia or something and see what hapens.

But weren't you the one to claim that you can cast spells that have the same casting time as Repose without added delay in your attack?

People have known for years that casting slows down melee swings. There are jobs who *depend* on timing their casting of spells while meleeing who know exactly how that works. And you're the one coming in claiming that all that information is wrong and that you're the *only person ever to play* who knows how to cast a spell without delaying melee swings?

Until YOU provide proof of how it's possible, then you have no leg to stand on. Get FRAPS, it's a program that lets you take both pics and vids of your game, it's free for what you'd need and completely sanctioned by SE. Infact it was one of their suggested methods of capturing video for their Fanfest video contests. Once you have that, you can then provide exact and unarguable proof that what you say is correct.

You launched you H2H attack some time between :59 and :00

:59 + 8 puts you at :07
:00 start cast
:between :08-:09
Making the casttime :8's
Hey, are you claiming it takes 8 seconds to cast Repose? :rofl:

If the player need to get off spells like stun, cure, sleep, repose... it is not wise to *clock* the casting at a predefined time frame in melee swing; the player want the spells to fire off *now*. In the long run, casting magic will eventually slow down melee.... :huh:

And doesn't Dia have like a 1 second cast time on a 75 Rdm with the hat on?

And doesn't Dia have like a 1 second cast time on a 75 Rdm with the hat on? Just a friendly reminder: Not a single Fast Cast gear is included for melee in this guide.

Sorry, I assumed gear swaps would be including for casting. Most of the better Rdm I know of always swap in casting gear when they actually cast, despite whatever else they may be doing.

My bad for assuming.

Sorry, I assumed gear swaps would be including for casting.

Good Assumption I figured this was a given, Im not teaching noobs how to melee, hence all the endgame gear/subjobs/ etc.
______________________________
Hey, are you claiming it takes 8 seconds to cast Repose

No im saying that was the time It was cast at acording to the log it was cast just after or on :08 seconds making it 9 seconds into the interval. which over rides his delay and takes to what I put. Regardless of its cast time it went over as the number clearly shows.
______________________________
I think i finally figured it out give me a sec to tinker with it.
(photos i mean)

ok hope this works and for added measure

to quote someone I greatly respect on these forums time to lay down some ownage


http://i289.photobucket.com/albums/ll230/kurtmooreca/undercast.png

Ok in this one I undercast on my swing (meaning I missed it) the delay carry over from the spell caused it to delay like normal (Ice mages theory)

http://i289.photobucket.com/albums/ll230/kurtmooreca/goodandbad.png

On this one the top was good because I got in just as I was ready to swing. The resault cause my spell delay to be entirely over looked and the resault had me screwing up and missing the cast over and screwing it up again.

http://i289.photobucket.com/albums/ll230/kurtmooreca/good.png

This one Is good, It has the over cast, and the timer for the next attack, as you can see 8's

http://i289.photobucket.com/albums/ll230/kurtmooreca/gear.jpg

This is my AF hat its red and has a feather, it gives me a boost to fast cast, which without this It would not be possible. I guess you could say this trick was brought to you by A and F.
Also notice I have no weapons or any other gears of any kind. I also would like to point out my delay of 8, I forgot to save the photo before I logged so ill get it again tomorrow.

I will also post a Picture of how to do it with haste and hopefully refresh (its the hardest)

Also if you want to know a timing trick I discovered tonight.

At least for taru taru

your charecter will rock back and fourth 5 times on the 6th he strikes. Begining your casting on the rock forward of the 5th interval will usually resault in a perfect cast over. (some time the animation is a tab lagged, but once you get the rythim it is easier to go)

Before this i would just use the game clock which is effective for longer spells, but I think im going to start giving this a whirl.

As any mage worth their salt knows, it takes the servers a couple of seconds to report the results of any spell. JUST to humor you, though, MrMageo, here's the exact same test, with Slow, a relatively fast casting spell.

http://img32.picoodle.com/img/img32/4/3/19/f_DELAYproof6m_77084e8.jpg (http://www.picoodle.com/view.php?img=/4/3/19/f_DELAYproof6m_77084e8.jpg&srv=img32)

Attack at 01:24:42
Slow cast at 01:24:45
Server reports back on Slow having no effect at 01:24:51
NEXT attack at 01:24:54 -> 12 seconds after the first.

Unless you'd care to maintain that it takes 6 seconds to cast Slow, consider your ownage complete (oh, DO please try and claim it takes 6 seconds to cast Slow... I'm amazed any Red Mage has ever survived solo if it did, considering most monsters have a 4 second attack cycle).


Icemage

In fact, here's the same test AGAIN with your own suggestion: Dia.

http://img36.picoodle.com/img/img36/4/3/19/f_DELAYproof7m_663f9a5.jpg (http://www.picoodle.com/view.php?img=/4/3/19/f_DELAYproof7m_663f9a5.jpg&srv=img36)

Attack at 1:34:42-43
Dia cast at 1:34:44
Damage reported at 1:34:48
Next attack "should" have been at 1:34:50-51
Next attack actually occurs at 1:34:54

Are you finished claiming that spellcasting doesn't stop your attack timers, or have you made enough of a fool of yourself?

P.S. LOL I just saw your posted screenshots. You realize that testing spellcasting time on RDM is an exercise in futility, right? With the Chapeau in effect, your theoretical casting time on Dia is at 0.60 seconds, well below the testable limit using the /clock command. There's a reason I chose to do my test as WHM/BLM. ;)


Icemage

I actually have AF+1 Hat/AF2 Body/Loq Earring, my Dia casts in -2.0 seconds.

That's right, I can cast on things in the past. Beat that.

Well I i acctually hold testing as a RDM with a Chapeau on to be of the utmost im portance since it is a discuson of timing your spells to run over the attack. The only job that may be able to do it otherwise is blue mage. If you look at my photos I clearly show where it didn't work. You have to cast over the animation. Not slightly after it not slightly before it.

Your arm needs to be in the air as the first attack is going off. I said earlier that it is meticulous and very hard to do. But it is possible to trick the game into not recognizing the delay if you cast at the right time. How ever it only works on spells that wont interupt the flow of the second attack.

I tis hard to do I cant stress it enough. Look at my dia resaults when I missed the cast time It didnt work, when I did hit it it did work. I will concede that inside the realms of the norm its not possible. (I would shoot anyone who tried to perfect it in a party.) However outside of normal situations there are always tricks you can manipulate. This one is no different it is possible to not affect your delay tmer, but in most cases it is not (if you get what I am saying). I suggest you practice a bit more with it as you clearly did not attempt what I described. That little table I wrote

0,1,2
0,1,2 etc

represnts what happens when the spell starts casting as you swing. Both timers are 0 because the game sees the spell and the the attack seperate. Or technically since it already logged the spell it can not log t again. Therefore its timer becomes 0. The Game records the attack and resets its timer to 0. The spell finishes casting In between the dealy, but since it has been counted already there is no penalty.

Its kinda in a way like the SS trick, learning to cast it as it wear, bt the effect is still on you while the Icon is gone. FTR remove SS @ 38% and it will be both on you and off you<38 is to early and may leave yousucceptible to a hit. 38< may resault in a no effect. Technically what has happened is the game has recognized that the spell has been cast. You removing tells the game it is gone however at the same time it is being replaced. Since the game looks at it in terms of "if's"

If player x cast's toneskin
/check if player has stone skin
If yes no effect
If no the grant stoneskin
Player X has removed Stoneskin
Player X has received stoneskin.

This is possible to occur on the same line which is why it gives the effect of continual stoneskin. However there is a very miniscual amount of time where SS is down. The player does not recognize this because we can not slow time to a crawl. The game functions properly and 99.99999999999999* percent ot the time the mob willhit for 0 because the time SS was down for is so small hundred thousandths of a second, If the mobs does not attack on this exact second, It will hit for 0 because SS was only down for that amount of time.

So again I will concede the fact that in the "normal" instances yes this theory is very unlikely, but for those that can get good at it, the possibility to over cast delay is acctually there. Like I said it takes impecable timing and you need to find a focal point that is constant at all times, such as a charecter bob animation as I found last night. Finding a point you can focus on for each cast will make it easier and more acheivable to do in "normal" situations.

I can not believe you insist on using visual cues from the client. You do realize that the animations you see have very little to do with what's going on "inside the game" right?

The messages from the server can be lagged up to several seconds. That's just the way the Internet works, and status/damage messages in particular can be particularly delayed.

I just showed you - several times - that you can't skip the spellcasting delay. If you think you are, it's because you're at the wrong point in the attack cycle - it will ALWAYS delay you, somewhere, based on the spell you cast.


Icemage

In your original 'battle walkthrough' you listed it as if you were able to utilize this trick through out an entire EXP pt fight with full consistency. Now you're saying that "inside the realms of the norm its not possible"? So when are you 'outside the realms of the norm' exactly? Because delay and casting timers are always consistent no matter what you're doing.

And not only that, you tried, and failed, to prove your point utilizing a spell that with a certain piece of equipment take less then a second to cast. Far too fast for the human eye and even the in game timer itself, to recognize. All while basing this on client side graphical cues which are constantly victim of server latency and lag.

Well I i acctually hold testing as a RDM with a Chapeau on to be of the utmost im portance since it is a discuson of timing your spells to run over the attack. The only job that may be able to do it otherwise is blue mage. If you look at my photos I clearly show where it didn't work. You have to cast over the animation. Not slightly after it not slightly before it.
We need that "No Thanks" button.

OK, maybe not. But, still...

To OP:
- You have no clue how network communication works.
- You have no clue how FFXI client tries to cover up client-server communication delays.
- You have no clue how to conduct testing.

The last one is especially important; WHM is better for testing than RDM for spell-melee interaction, since it doesn't have any job trait which screws around with timing of spells. Long delay weapons and spells with reasonable amount of cast time make things easier for human beings to measure. Easier to measure means less chance of error, and means the results are more trust worthy.

Claiming this should be tested with faster casting spell and Fast Cast means you don't understand testing at all. What is that expression? "Epic fail"?

Spell casting adds to the delay between melee swings. Get over it.

You can tell by the number of times your character bobs around? Okay lemme say first I have some limited knowledge of client-server interaction, latency, and packets and stuff, but from my understanding if you're trying to trust your eyes to accurately time what you're proposing then you're going about it in the wrong way. An mmorpg is not like a console game. Information has to be sent to a server and then sent back to you. And it has to be interpreted each time. Although that happens at an incredibly fast speed, there's something you have to keep in mind. Your computer is not 100% synchronized with the information that's coming back and forth.

Packets of information can be delayed, sent in a different order, or lost altogether. Depending on your connection, your graphics card, and your cpu this probably creates all sorts of discrepancies with what you input into the game, the things you see on the screen, and what the server is actually telling you. You could have the best connection in the world and I still wouldn't trust it. I've noticed the log reporting attacks still landing on mobs after the log reports that they died. hell I've been smacked by a mob after it died for cripes sake.

How about this? When a Goblin Smithy is running you down he hacks your back to pieces. Yet, when you chase a mob, even if you're right behind you can't hit it. You have to run in FRONT of it. Do you know why? Because the information flow between your client and the server is falling behind. There's latency in just about everything you do because of the distance between you and the server. So it's hard for me to believe that you can time that properly to less than a second by watching how your character moves.

Here's another test.

RDM/SCH, without the Chapeau. Casting Stoneskin with the (lol) "cast right as you animate" trick as suggested by MrMageo:

First off, here's proof of my 8 second attack cycle here:

http://img33.picoodle.com/img/img33/4/3/19/f_delayproof1m_8a1cbcc.jpg (http://www.picoodle.com/view.php?img=/4/3/19/f_delayproof1m_8a1cbcc.jpg&srv=img33)

Now, right in the middle of this first battle log, you can see me start casting Stoneskin right before the next attack, just as I'm going into the animation.

LOOK WHAT HAPPENS TO MY ATTACK DELAY

http://img02.picoodle.com/img/img02/4/3/19/f_DELAYproof9m_65e432d.jpg (http://www.picoodle.com/view.php?img=/4/3/19/f_DELAYproof9m_65e432d.jpg&srv=img02)

05:00:53 Attack
05:01:01 Start casting Stoneskin
05:01:01 Attack (8 seconds)
05:01:09 Stoneskin reports finished casting
05:01:16 Attack (15 seconds since the previous attack)


Icemage

If this conversation continues further without both of you getting Timestamp you're both getting slapped.

If this conversation continues further without both of you getting Timestamp you're both getting slapped.
I turn Timestamp off by default since it's spammy, but I can use it if you insist. :) It doesn't change the results, though - we're talking several seconds of difference, not fractions of a second.


Icemage

I turn Timestamp off by default since it's spammy, but I can use it if you insist. :) It doesn't change the results, though - we're talking several seconds of difference, not fractions of a second.


Icemage

I don't care about the results lol, I just want it easier to read the damn screenshots.:cool:

I don't care about the results lol, I just want it easier to read the damn screenshots.:cool:

Here, is this better? :)

http://img36.picoodle.com/img/img36/4/3/19/f_delayproof1m_5efe131.jpg (http://www.picoodle.com/view.php?img=/4/3/19/f_delayproof1m_5efe131.jpg&srv=img36)


Icemage

Now I dont want to sound like I am back pedling. But in the arguement we are having my method provides less delay interuption every time (as opposed to 100% on certain spells). As you showed with stoneskin, if you had cast it after youratack you would have

0,-7,-6,-5,-4,-3,-2,-1,0, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7
1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16

however you had a cast of

0, - 7, -6, -5, -4, -3, -2, -1, 0, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7
0, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15

now i believe it is possible to acheive "0" delay interuption but I cant figure out how to squeeze it. In any case this will put you at 14 seconds of spell castng saving 2 seconds over "joe" who cast after his sword swing instead of your 15 for being on it.

-7, -6, -5, -4, -3, -2, -1, 0 ,1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7
0, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7. 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14

now look at dia which is shown to work like this

-2,-1 0 , 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6,
0, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8,

Now my dia records from diagram 3 show it was begun casting @ :29 Just before my attack and it took abotu 1 second to cast, delay to :31 on timer. there is now 6 seconds remaining before the next attack. Bam 6 seconds after dia was record ed as landed and 8 seconds after the initial hit, I hit again, resaulting in no loss of time.

Plug it in for any spell since we know it works for your version of stoneskin, now your version dia from your first dia diagram. Lets look at it.

1 Attack :43
Dia cast :44
Dia stick :50
2 attack :54

so lets look at your Dia

0, 1, -2, -1, 0, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8
1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11

you dia finishes @ :50 which is 6 seconds from cast to stick, which puts you at a total of 11. you it at :54 from :43

You lost out on your 3 seconds because you attacked before cating then waited 2 seconds to cast. The timer for attack reset and was counting during your spell cast resaulting in the carry over of time on the end like normally happens.

Regardless of this unending debate using this in battles has helped me shave precious seconds of my time, while not always getting it at 100% effect, 1-2 seconds from normally casting a spell, is 1-2 seconds more I have to cast something else. At the end of the fight all those 1-2 saved seconds really add up and make you A more effective spell caster from the front line. I have provided the tools to doing it and have given what I assume to be a pretty good starting platform.

Also for the record, Fast Cast does not change the delay caused of a spell, only the rate at which is goes off. The animation still carries on after the spell has been cast. which would result in skewed numbers. As much as you want to say time and animations dont mean anything, so far in the comparison of dia our spell times and casting are identical. The only reason I fit it in I already described. As for the guide itself, I will revise the section with this because it is very vague in regards to it. I may put it in an advanced trick section for meleeing along with the SS trick. Thanks for your diligent effort to try and make me looks stupid I have acctually enjoyed practiing this, and getting better at. I plan to soon compile a List of delay differentials between spells castin After initial attack, casting durring initial attack, casting slightly prior ti initial attack.

I know right now just from what you have posted and I have posted

dia before attack = 0
dia after attack = +11

we also know stoneskin is

before attack :14
on attack : 15
after attack :16

Not trying o sound like a broken record but it does work.

Are you blind? I showed 14 seconds, 15 seconds, and 16 seconds - doing the EXACT SAME THING each time. It's all down to how much lag an individual message accumulates on its way to your client.


Icemage

Here, is this better? Infinitely, thank you.

we also know stoneskin is

before attack :14
on attack : 15
after attack :16

Not trying o sound like a broken record but it does work.

*cough*bullshit*cough*

http://img01.picoodle.com/img/img01/4/3/19/f_delayproof1m_4ecfa8c.jpg (http://www.picoodle.com/view.php?img=/4/3/19/f_delayproof1m_4ecfa8c.jpg&srv=img01)


Icemage

you seriously expect me to believe you have a 8 second client delay
If that is true then your post mean nothing to me.

All casting stoneskin at that point did was caused your previous attack window to get pushed back. 7 seconds

:51 ATK (0s)
:58 SS (7 second cast)
:59 (without casting SS atk would be here)
:06 ATK (15s +1/-1 for lag (crit hit logs etc)(also serves as 0's in next round)
:06 gains effect of SS receiveing an effect does not reset dealy other wise we would need a major over haul of party dynamics
:14 ATK (8s)

so um cough bullshit you still didnt cast it right, right in the middle causes full effect of 16 seconds. Like Ive said at least once on each of the last 3 pages.

Keep digging, MrMageo. You'll hit China soon enough.

I'm totally sold. The complete lack of evidence has shown me that all of Icemage's screen shots are wrong or didn't happen.

Forget pics or it didn't happen, now it's pics and it still didn't happen.

you seriously expect me to believe you have a 8 second client delay
If that is true then your post mean nothing to me.

All casting stoneskin at that point did was caused your previous attack window to get pushed back. 7 seconds

:51 ATK (0s)
:58 SS (7 second cast)
:59 (without casting SS atk would be here)
:06 ATK (15s +1/-1 for lag (crit hit logs etc)(also serves as 0's in next round)
:06 gains effect of SS receiveing an effect does not reset dealy other wise we would need a major over haul of party dynamics
:14 ATK (8s)

so um cough bullshit you still didnt cast it right, right in the middle causes full effect of 16 seconds. Like Ive said at least once on each of the last 3 pages.
This is reality calling. As you have failed to see my commentary (several times) that the client chatlog is horrendously unreliable. Messages appear "when they get there" and not a moment sooner. That's why the chatlog shows me cancelling Stoneskin before it even recognized that I had the effect.

Casting Stoneskin at any time is going to push your attack delay back by several seconds, period. We can argue about whether that delay is 6 seconds, 7 seconds, or 8 seconds, but it is ALWAYS THERE.


Icemage

Joyeuse or Excalibur? I need advice. This guide isn't telling. :(

From this:

Spell casting does in no way pause, stop, skip the attack timer. If you cast a 3 second spell between the 6 second window, you will still swing at the 6 second interval. If you cast a 4 second spell and a 3 second spell you are at 7 seconds, and will attack at the 8th second of the interval.


To this:

If you look at my photos I clearly show where it didn't work. You have to cast over the animation. Not slightly after it not slightly before it.


Bit of a difference between those two statements isn't there MrMageo? I'd call that backpedaling myself.



Can we cut the BS please?

And yes I feel entitled to call this BS especially with statements like:


When they dont sub SAM they are wiff machines. Missing an attack on them really hurts 16 seconds of no damage (in the above examples weapon choice.) Not tryig to over glorify RDM melee but a consistent 80% ACC over 6 second intervals (less if not dual weild) is more effective than a slightly more accurate drk who misses once and is doing no damage for 16 seconds.(prolly why DRKs dont get parties me thinks)

Amongst others.

And yes, Ziero pointed the above out first but I got it in quotes :thumbsup:

Im not saying its not in this sense but what is better a 14 second round or 16 second ? I have just moved myself up2 seconds compared to the person who casts after he hits. What I am arguing is there a certain spells which ou can cram into the cast on the first attack, making their delay non factor. for example our dia casting I got min inside 8 seconds and cast your took the full 8 seconds + 3 to cast when you cast it after, meaning I am 3 seconds ahead of you for my next attack.

Lets look at my SS resaults

http://i289.photobucket.com/albums/ll230/kurtmooreca/atkss15seconds.png

This one I get a net total of 15 seconds from casting on my attack, like you did.

http://i289.photobucket.com/albums/ll230/kurtmooreca/16seconds.png

This one I cast In the middle Like you did on your last example and got 16 seconds.

http://i289.photobucket.com/albums/ll230/kurtmooreca/ssatk14seconds.png

Here I did my Cast trick and got 14 seconds. Which as far as I can tell atm Is as low as you can go with this cast. The 6 second diferential is added on to the end of the spell and since it goes over 8 seconds my attack is then delayed to 14.

7 second cast - 1 second for opening the fight with it = 6 second casting differential

8 delay + 6 second casting = 14 seconds

alternitvely ill plug dia into that

1 second cast - 1 second for opening fight with it = 0 + 8 = 8 (when I swung) meaning no delay interference caused by the spell