Smn/sch

[Sabaron]

I've been running through a lot of math related to SMN/SCH recently and I wanted to bring it together into a single thread of it's own to make it more visible and useful. Everything below will be considered using our Archetypal SMN/SCH. He (or she) is naked, level 75, and has no notable merits. We'll call him "AnySMN".

Potency of Elemental Siphon (2.41MP/Tick Refresh Equivalent)

AnySMN has 269 Summoning Skill. The (beta) formula for Elemental Siphon from wiki is (Summoning Skill-50)x(Bonus%): 269-50 * 1.10 = 241mp per use every 5 minutes (300 seconds). That's Refresh Equivalent of 241/300*3 = 2.41 MP/Tick.

Potency of Sublimation (1.56MP/Tick RE)

AnySMN has about 890mp. He gets 890 * 0.25 = 222mp from sublimation at a rate of 2mp/tick or 333 seconds and has to cast Regen II (33mp) to fix it and we have a 30 second wait in between uses of Sublimation so that's 189mp/363 seconds = 0.521mp/sec (1.56mp/tick).
Potency of Resting (13.75MP/Tick RE)

In the example in a previous thread, I used a lot of +hMP gear. This time, I'll go with this more modest setup. For Resting, we'll give AnySMN some resting gear.

Clear Mind V (base): 27
Dark Staff: +10
Errant Houppelande: +5
Hierarch Belt: +2
Wizard Cookie: +7

That's a respectable, easily obtainable +hMP set that AnySMN can get on his meager budget. It gives him 27+10+5+2+7 = 51MP base healing tick. On a 5-tick rest cycle (60 seconds), we will get 51+53+55+57+59 = 275MP or 275/60*3 = 13.75 MP/Tick Refresh Equivalent.
The Flip-Flop Sublimation/Resting Cycle (3.54 MP/Tick RE)

In order to maximize the potential of Sublimation and Resting, we need to combine them in an efficient way and be able to think about Sublimation in terms of its Rest equivalent. Rest Equivalent is the ratio of their Refresh Equivalents (this can be shown) or 1.56/13.75 = 11.3%. This means that Sublimation which is active while we're not resting if used to it's maximum potential duration (333 seconds) is roughly equal to spending 11.3% of our time resting which is huge. If, AnySMN finds that he has to rest about 25% of his time to keep his mp well stocked, using Sublimation while standing will drop his rest time down to 14%!

Now, we need to consider overlap. Sublimation works by activating it once and letting it drain off your hp. Once you are done draining, you use the ability again and it gives you mp equal to the amount of hp drained (max 25%). The ability has a recast time of 30 seconds which is roughly equivalent to AnySMNs first two rest ticks. Optimally, we'll eat our cookie, release our avatar if any, end Sublimation and start /healing in that order as quickly as possible. This should maximize our rest overlap to around 29 seconds which we can now shave off of our Sublimation Refresh Equivalent ratio making it 189mp/333sec*3 = 1.70MP/Tick getting us an extra 0.14MP/Tick which isn't stellar but it's still something. Our cycle length will be 333 seconds + 60 seconds or 393 seconds. For these 393 seconds, we will get 189MP from Sublimation and 275MP from /healing or 464/393*3 = 3.54MP/Tick Refresh Equivalent.


Obviously, we can consider alternate cycles if we're losing mp like resting for 40 seconds per each 150 second Sublimation cycle. The calculations should be relatively intuitive.

Bringing it all Together
We've got 3.54MP/T from Sublimation/Rest and 2.41MP/T from Siphon. We have Auto-Refresh for another 1MP/T, so that gives us 6.95MP/T naked without any friends.

Now let's look at AnySMN's friend AnyRDM the RDM/WHM and see what his Refresh Equivalent is for comparison. Well, he get's Refresh, 3mp/tick. He has only 572mp, but he can Convert and refill up to 571mp every 10 minutes (600 seconds) or 571/600*3 = 2.855MP/T for a total of 5.86MP/T. He really doesn't get much else, but we can give him the same rest cycle we have so he gets 275/393 = 2.10 more for a total of 7.96MP/T.

Therefore, all other things being equal, AnySMN's overall Refresh Equivalent is only 1mp per tick less than AnyRDMs. Therefore, in terms of MP capacity, SMN/SCH is now almost as energetic as an equivalently geared RDM.

Theoretical Consequences

SMN's overall RE increased by about 4mp/tick as a result of the update.
With appropriate gear, at level 75, Fenrir costs 4mp per tick.
Celestial Avatars cost as little as 5mp per tick.
Carbuncle still costs only 1mp per tick.

This increase and the "No-Resting" effect of Sublimation make having an Avatar out at all times during Sublimation perfectly acceptable and quite valuable especially in Carbucle's case with an emergency Healing Ruby II.

Since I'm not a high level SMN, I obviously can't test this practically, but I would love to see results and impressions from some real Summoners.

Pieces of information to benchmark:

Avatar DPS
Approximate % Rest Time

[MrMageo]

Wowits nice to see all that together all most makes me want to lvl SMN, almost. If it wasnt for that little pigeon hole to main heal, been there done that. (Same Reason SCH wil remain sub 40 indefinitally)

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Wowits nice to see all that together all most makes me want to lvl SMN, almost. If it wasnt for that little pigeon hole to main heal, been there done that. (Same Reason SCH wil remain sub 40 indefinitally)

Contrary to popular belief, not everyone looks at main healing as a dirty little chore, but rather, being part of the team.

So far, as SCH main, I've had as many opportunities to nuke as I have had to heal. When you have a Cure spell, helping others is part of the territory. Even for BLUs.

Don't like it? Don't play the job.

[IfritnoItazura]

Avatar DPS

I've been curious about that for years. ._. To be more specific, I've never seen real, measured figures for dmg/MP for melee'ing avatars.

[Icemage]

One thing to look at is resting efficiency.

A level 75 Summoner has Clear Mind V.

It's reasonable to expect a 75 SMN to have these items:

Dark/Pluto Staff: hMP+10
Errant Houppelande: hMP+5
Heirarch Belt: hMP+2

This is a worst-case scenario for resting, as there are quite a large number of other +hMP items, but they're harder to acquire.

Sublimation returns (# of ticks active + 1) x 2 MP during its charging phase.

From a time-based standpoint:

Sublimation vs. /heal:

Tick 0: 2 vs 0
Tick 1: 4 vs 0
Tick 2: 6 vs 0
Tick 3: 8 vs 0
Tick 4: 10 vs 0
Tick 5: 12 vs 0
Tick 6: 14 vs 44
Tick 7: 16 vs 87

Things get pretty lopsided after that. Realistically, then, if you have time to spend /healing for at least 6 ticks, it's always a superior option for MP to end Sublimation and start /healing, even for a single tick of rest, rather than opting to keep Sublimation up.

Now, obviously there are times when you have a pet out anyway and you have no option to /heal - this is where Sublimation shines.


Icemage

[Pteryx]

Another thing to take into account is that Stoneskin absorbs the damage from Sublimation (tested personally). By the time SMN/SCH gets Sublimation, they've had Earthen Ward for quite some time, allowing the SMN/SCH to rest while charging at the cost of a pact -- one that just happens to be one the party may want anyway. -- Pteryx

[Lmnop]

*Your character’s HP will slowly decrease while storing MP and you will be unable to enter healing mode or log out while this ability is in effect.

Even if you could, Sublimation itself (just like having an avatar out) won't let you rest MP.

[Icemage]

Even if you could, Sublimation itself (just like having an avatar out) won't let you rest MP.
This is not true. I just tested this in-game. Stoneskin negates the damage, and you can indeed rest while Sublimation is charging.

EDIT: Just finished testing. You can also rest without Stoneskin if Sublimation has completed charging, for any reason.


Icemage

[Sabaron]

Another thing to take into account is that Stoneskin absorbs the damage from Sublimation (tested personally). By the time SMN/SCH gets Sublimation, they've had Earthen Ward for quite some time, allowing the SMN/SCH to rest while charging at the cost of a pact -- one that just happens to be one the party may want anyway. -- Pteryx

Earthen Ward absorbs up to 200 damage or 100 seconds worth of Sublimation, but it costs 92mp, so you can sacrifice half of the potency of your Sublimation for up to 100 seconds or up to 8 rest ticks (~275mp).

In order for this to be worthwhile, you have to get at least 92mp from resting which is at least 30 seconds downtime (51+53 = 104mp).

Of course, if you're tossing Earthen Ward (which has an hp/mp ratio of 2.17 per person), you can assume it's going to save you we'll say 2.5 Cure III's or 115mp. If you hit yourself and the tank, the pact easily pays for itself. Of course this leads us right back to where we were before. Since the SMN doesn't have to stand, then any SMN who has a pet out is a slacker because he's not Rest/Sublimating like a good little SMN--thus crushing the idea of avatar melee without additional buffs.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Just finished testing. You can also rest without Stoneskin if Sublimation has completed charging, for any reason.


Icemage

I pretty much figured Sublimation was treated just like a DoT spell by the system, this is actually a great tool for fights where mobs spam sleepga and mages are at risk of getting caught up in it. Based on that, I guessed Stoneskin would work anyway.

Still, its good to have it confirmed. SCH main can just use Stoneskin to negate the DoT and also just use it to rest, same with SMN and Earthen Ward.

[Icemage]

Earthen Ward absorbs up to 200 damage or 100 seconds worth of Sublimation, but it costs 92mp, so you can sacrifice half of the potency of your Sublimation for up to 100 seconds or up to 8 rest ticks (~275mp).

In order for this to be worthwhile, you have to get at least 92mp from resting which is at least 30 seconds downtime (51+53 = 104mp).

Of course, if you're tossing Earthen Ward (which has an hp/mp ratio of 2.17 per person), you can assume it's going to save you we'll say 2.5 Cure III's or 115mp. If you hit yourself and the tank, the pact easily pays for itself. Of course this leads us right back to where we were before. Since the SMN doesn't have to stand, then any SMN who has a pet out is a slacker because he's not Rest/Sublimating like a good little SMN--thus crushing the idea of avatar melee without additional buffs.
Your math is off, Sabaron.

Sublimation drains 2HP/3 seconds when subbed, so a 200 damage Earthen Ward Stoneskin effect will persist for 300 seconds, or 5 minutes, during which time you can potentially recover your entire MP pool no matter how much your max is (100 ticks).

I agree it's sort of an unwieldy way to use Sublimation, however. That's a lot of preparation and investment, so you'd best be really sure you're going to have that time to rest or you're actually netting negative MP.


Icemage

[Dim Mahk]

Such a good thread. hats off people. I love my SMN @ 60 and raising

[Nataka]

I'm a little confused. Correct my interpretation if I'm wrong:

With the use of sublimination and other /sch strategems, it's possible to keep current MP efficency for healing with more liberal use of avatars, correct? does this mean it'd be beneficial to keep, say, Carbuncle out while main healing with Sublimination active? Does this include any other avatars?

[Sabaron]

I'm a little confused. Correct my interpretation if I'm wrong:

With the use of sublimination and other /sch strategems, it's possible to keep current MP efficency for healing with more liberal use of avatars, correct? does this mean it'd be beneficial to keep, say, Carbuncle out while main healing with Sublimination active? Does this include any other avatars?

Sublimation makes it more viable but not completely viable as, when using Stoneskin (Earthen Ward), you can still rest and Sublimate at the same time.

One of the biggest effects of Sublimation is that it allows Summoners to function more effectively without a Red Mage. It also provides more MP Efficent White Magic than /WHM thus saving additional MP making it more plausible to use an avatar to melee provided your DPS/MP ratio is high enough to warrant having the avatar out in the first place which is one of the subjects of the experiments I raised at the end of the OP. It certainly justifies more liberal pact use and puts quite a few cracks in the "Summoner's shouldn't Summon" mentality of some players who expect a SMN to not use pacts except to buff them (e.g. Hastega) and focus their entire efforts on Curebotting thus making a Summoner, effectively, a gimp WHM who was only invited because a better healer wasn't available.

[Nataka]

Sublimation makes it more viable but not completely viable as, when using Stoneskin (Earthen Ward), you can still rest and Sublimate at the same time.

One of the biggest effects of Sublimation is that it allows Summoners to function more effectively without a Red Mage. It also provides more MP Efficent White Magic than /WHM thus saving additional MP making it more plausible to use an avatar to melee provided your DPS/MP ratio is high enough to warrant having the avatar out in the first place which is one of the subjects of the experiments I raised at the end of the OP. It certainly justifies more liberal pact use and puts quite a few cracks in the "Summoner's shouldn't Summon" mentality of some players who expect a SMN to not use pacts except to buff them (e.g. Hastega) and focus their entire efforts on Curebotting thus making a Summoner, effectively, a gimp WHM who was only invited because a better healer wasn't available.

Ooh, interesting. So it actually kinda becomes a different type of scholar in that it can main heal effecitvely while also dealing damage when said healing isn't completely needed (Every healer has been in one of those parties where healing wasnt needed 24/7, sometimes your tank is just that good).

Very interesting indeed. I'll have to level scholar to 37 and give it a shot on my summoner some time.

EDIT: Also dont scholars get access to aspir? YOu havent really included it in your formulas

[Sabaron]

EDIT: Also dont scholars get access to aspir? YOu havent really included it in your formulas

SCH does get Aspir and it is not included in OP because I have no reliable statistical data on average mp returns, and such data would invariably be target and application specific. To put it succinctly, there are too many variables to determine a generic rate of return unless you apply rigorous constraints and collect data over a significant number of trials (e.g. limit yourself to G. Colibri).

[Khidir]

Something to add you can simply use regen or in sch case regen II to negate the -hp from sublimation easily...

21mp for 115hp regen

and regen II for more 5hp tick for X amount.

I've been considering this thanks for starting the thread

[Omniblast]

I've been playing smn/sch for campaign.
I have no hard facts or anything to use for a party scenario, however I'll try to use /sch for a party and report back.
It does keep mp a bit higher, but not notably higher than normal. Considering that Elemental Siphon has helped a lot as well.

[Karinya]

One thing to look at is resting efficiency.

A level 75 Summoner has Clear Mind V.

It's reasonable to expect a 75 SMN to have these items:

Dark/Pluto Staff: hMP+10
Errant Houppelande: hMP+5
Heirarch Belt: hMP+2

This is a worst-case scenario for resting, as there are quite a large number of other +hMP items, but they're harder to acquire.

Sublimation returns (# of ticks active + 1) x 2 MP during its charging phase.

From a time-based standpoint:

Sublimation vs. /heal:

Tick 0: 2 vs 0
Tick 1: 4 vs 0
Tick 2: 6 vs 0
Tick 3: 8 vs 0
Tick 4: 10 vs 0
Tick 5: 12 vs 0
Tick 6: 14 vs 44
Tick 7: 16 vs 87

Things get pretty lopsided after that. Realistically, then, if you have time to spend /healing for at least 6 ticks, it's always a superior option for MP to end Sublimation and start /healing, even for a single tick of rest, rather than opting to keep Sublimation up.

Now, obviously there are times when you have a pet out anyway and you have no option to /heal - this is where Sublimation shines.
Hold on a minute. What do you mean by "tick"? Refresh and regen effects (traits, drinks, songs, gear, whatever - it's all lumped into one number that's applied at once) use a 3 second tick, but resting uses a *9* second tick (plus the startup delay). You can see this very easily by resting with refresh on - you get refresh, then refresh, then refresh followed by rest, repeat. (This is why hMP body items have big amounts like +5... if they were 3 or less you'd be better off resting in VC/Dalmatica/etc., and SE knows it.)

On the other hand, you've subtracted 1 from your second rest tick instead of adding 1.

(Otherwise see the rest of this thread on stoneskin+sublimation, etc.)

I agree that if you have to interrupt Sublimation to rest, and you expect to be able to get some nonzero number of rest ticks before needing to stand again, then you should go ahead and interrupt Sublimation. But resting isn't *quite* as awesome as you're implying.

[Icemage]

Hold on a minute. What do you mean by "tick"? Refresh and regen effects (traits, drinks, songs, gear, whatever - it's all lumped into one number that's applied at once) use a 3 second tick, but resting uses a *9* second tick (plus the startup delay). You can see this very easily by resting with refresh on - you get refresh, then refresh, then refresh followed by rest, repeat. (This is why hMP body items have big amounts like +5... if they were 3 or less you'd be better off resting in VC/Dalmatica/etc., and SE knows it.)

On the other hand, you've subtracted 1 from your second rest tick instead of adding 1.

(Otherwise see the rest of this thread on stoneskin+sublimation, etc.)

I agree that if you have to interrupt Sublimation to rest, and you expect to be able to get some nonzero number of rest ticks before needing to stand again, then you should go ahead and interrupt Sublimation. But resting isn't *quite* as awesome as you're implying.
That's what I get for posting in the middle of the night without enough sleep and not double checking my math. :p

Base MP recovery while healing is +12 on first tick. With Summoner's Clear Mind V, that increases to +27, +3 every tick thereafter.

+17 in hMP items generates a raw total of +44 in the first tick, +47, +50, etc.

Corrected figures

Sublimation versus Resting (resting ticks):

Tick 0 (start): 0 vs 0
Tick 1 : 6 vs 0
Tick 2 : 12 vs 0
Tick 3 : 18 vs 0
Tick 4 : 24 vs 0
Tick 5: 30 vs 0
Tick 6: 36 vs 44
Tick 7: 42 vs 91
Tick 8: 48 vs 141

Different numbers, same conclusion. If you're going to rest long enough to get even a single successful tick of rest on Summoner, it's better to opt to rest than to activate Sublimation (assuming you don't have an avatar or spirit out preventing you from resting in the first place).


Icemage

[Nuriko]

I think the resting tick is 10 seconds, actually ... if I'm keeping an eye on something with a 3-second tick and a resting tick, they line up differently each time.

[Icemage]

I think the resting tick is 10 seconds, actually ... if I'm keeping an eye on something with a 3-second tick and a resting tick, they line up differently each time.
3 "refresh/regen" ticks = 1 resting tick, always, though the timing isn't always in sync (depends on when you activated each).

You can tell with a Red Mage - everyone in your party will pick up MP at different moments even if Refresh is on all of the above.

The timing match is easy to tell on a Tarutaru mage using a Auto-Refresh trait or gear, though.


Icemage

[Sabaron]

Well, since we are now aware that Stoneskin absorbs Sublimation damage and allows you to rest, you can actually do both at the same time by using Earthen Ward. However, that doesn't really fit with the idea of the more "active" SMN that I was originally proposing. The idea is to use sublimation to allow a SMN to "cycle" like a RDM and rarely if ever rest. The idea was to allow SMN to be less reserved with their avatar use and be more "Summony" than "White Magey".