Blood Pact Overhaul

[Malacite]

A lot of ideas have been tossed around over the years on how to fix SMN. But for now, I want to focus on blood pacts.


First and foremost, let's scrap the current system. Enough of this shared timer BS. Let's give each pact it's own timer. The only delay between different pacts should be the time it takes for the avatar to charge and use them. Let's use Carbuncle and Garuda as examples.

Carbuncle:

Searing Light: 1 Minute + AF
Healing Ruby: 10 seconds
Poison Nails: 12 seconds
Shining Ruby: 20 seconds
Glittering Ruby: 30 seconds
Meteorite: 30~45 seconds
Healing Ruby II: 20~25 seconds

Garuda:

Aerial Blast: 1 Minute + AF
Claw: 10 seconds
Aero II: 21 seconds (same as BLM's Thunder II. Going for a reasonable number)
Aerial Armor: 20 seconds (normal recast for blink is 10)
Whispering Wind: 12 seconds
Hastega: 30~40 seconds
Aero IV: 38 seconds (roughly same as Thunder IV)
Predator Claws: 45~50 seconds (Maybe 1:00 for the lv70 BPs?)
Wind Blade: 45~50 seconds (should be the same as lv 70's)


Now this way, we're able to blow through our pacts at our own pace while still not negating the blood pact ability down gear. If this is too strong, one thing that could be done on top of this is to make them on a shared menu like DNC's dances. But that would screw up one of the big advantages to my suggestions here, which is to be able to do a physical pact to form a skillchain and follow it up with a Tier 2/4 nuke to MB.


In addition to giving them their own recasts, it'd be great if the level 70 pacts could be used to form level 2 (maybe 3?) skill chains. This would really help push SMN as a high cost high reward DD in addition to easing the reliance on the sub job.

A job's subjob should supplement it, not define it. The tier 2 and 4 nukes should also gain a substantial power boost, as well as increased MP cost to match.

[Silent Howler]

IMO that feels like it would be a little too much, to be honest. I think it would be more practical to have a single recast timer for each individaul avatar (which could further be divided into Rage and Ward, but that might no longer be neccessary).

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

And the inane SMN bitching continues... even with a new toy and new subjob viability this week.

Its getting really, really old. Let it rest for while, man. Let's see how these changes impact things. These days, when we see one change happen with a job that's been neglected for a while, in the updates to follow, there are more changes more often than not. See: BST, PUP, DRG.

[Dranzia]

A job's subjob should supplement it, not define it.

I like this statement...

In all seriousness though, it does sound VERY overpowered to do all of the OPs ideas, but I wouldn't be opposed to somehow (yet again?) reinforcing the use of avatars more....

Heck, what do I know? I'm only 43 SMN :(

[Malacite]

Overpowered how? I was just using random numbers (well, not entirely random) that I pulled out of my ass (based on timers for other spells/abilities) to base these on.

Plus, there's still the fact that you'll end up blowing more MP than other mages would for these abilities. All this would do would allow SMN to perform it's support and healing abilities through the avatars as opposed to /WHM or /SCH. The timers themselves are obviously subject to change as SE has the final say.

I love how some people say "oh, this will break SMN. People will do SMN onry!" Hah, yeah right. No amount of refresh in the game will keep a SMN who's spamming pacts on top of maintaining an avatar going indefinitely. This just puts SMN on the level with the other jobs IMO, with the balancing factor being MP spent.

As for enmity, I'd say the SMN should pick up 50% of the enmity the avatar does? So that in the event the pet dies, the SMN isn't completely out of the woods yet. Shit, BLM's have their own safety nets (Sleep, Stun, and SJ spells) so I'm not getting what's so broken here.


I understand how annoyed you are @ all these threads BBQ, and I agree to an extent. However it's infuriating to me that after all this time, SE still hasn't done anything make keeping avatars out practical.

[Sabaron]

What you have done just with those pacts alone makes SMN incredibly powerful--oustripping both WHM and BLM with it's ability to do pretty much everything they can do without being fettered by the chains of enmity or time, and with the benefit of the greatest mp pool and second highest overall refresh rate of any job (The highest being RDM/SMN, RDM/PLD and RDM/BRD sans party BRD).

You view the time restriction as the thing that makes you definable by your subjob. You're subjob is just what you do between pacts. Pacts are too powerful to be cast so frequently. All you'd do is speed up by great measure the rate at which SMN operates. They would be able to crank out all of their good buffs and cycle them indefinitely, and the amount of spike magic damage they'd be able to cause (even without Astral Flow) would surpass by great measure the abilities of any DD. Why wait for the timer? I'll just drop Garuda and bring up Shiva. Even if you put the pact timers on a per-avatar basis and leave them at 1:00 per avatar, you're still making SMN exponentially more powerful.

Summon Garuda
Predator Claws
Dispel Garuda
Summon Shiva
Double Slap
Dispel Shiva
Summon Garuda
Predator Claws
.
.
.
Continue ad nauseam until I'm out of MP.

SMN is already a powerhouse end-game job. Touch it too much and you'll significantly alter the balance of the game. If you change the recast timers so much, they you'll basically have to gimp the pacts down by a requisite amount. A pointless endeavor.

The only time SMN is defined by its subjob is during XP and even then you're stretching.

[Feba]

A job's subjob should supplement it, not define it.

Tell that to DRG. Or NIN. Or SAM.


Oh, are those all ROTZ jobs that can use very different subjobs to act in very different ways in very different situations?

I suppose it would be a coincidence then that SMN came out at ROTZ release.

No way that's a coincidence.

[Malacite]

DRG's something of an oddball in that SJ defines the wyvern but not the DRG itself. And I don't see how you make those arguments for SAM and NIN when both have the tools they need to do what they do already (>_> NIN technically wasn't meant to be a tank in the first place anyway)


Admittedly, the spamming of 70 BPs via summon & release hadn't occured to me @.@; (I had headache when I was posting this) so you're right on that account. That's why I said @ the end of my 1st post that some form of shared timer may be required, but the current system we have now is too restrictive. I'm trying to dig up a happy medium here.

Also, most of the spell delays I listed are around double what it would take to cast the regular spells (ala accession). Increasing the MP cost of pacts (while lowering perp a little) would be another good idea too IMO. I don't see why pacts shouldn't be powerful, given the nature of their source. Just freaking costly (at least for the more "broken" ones like the 70 BPs).

You're not seriously going to tell me it wouldn't be more fun to leave carbuncle/garuda/leviathan out and use one of them to do the healing as opposed to /WHM or /SCH?

That's the entire point of this thread; trying to figure out a balanced way to allow SMN to rely more on their main job's abilities and much less on their current crutch.


So, it looks like SE wasn't entirely wrong with the shared timer concept. The issue is in how to prevent spamming of particular abilities (not all of them) so that we don't end up with as you said, a SMN popping off multiple 70 BP's or AFs.

Certainly can't have that happen (No really, I agree ^^) but at the same time it'd be nice to say open a chain with Garuda, then switch out to Shiva (while melee does 2nd WS) and burst with Blizzard II/IV, or maybe continue the chain with another physical pact. But again that's gotta be balanced by both the MP spent and relative power too. Again like you said, spamming 70+ pacts/Astrals = bad.


I'm not the only one to have tossed out the notion of giving each avatar their own list, which is pretty much what this is btw. SE wasn't kidding when they said this was the hardest job to balance because it's too easy to push it over the edge. However I take offense @ the ppl knocking it down for the sake of doing so, and not offering anything constructive to the discussion.

Come up with your own ideas/suggestions or kindly don't post. I'm really hoping to find a consensus here that can be mailed in to SE on the off chance they might actually see it and go "Hey, why don't we test this?"

[Karinya]

However I take offense @ the ppl knocking it down for the sake of doing so, and not offering anything constructive to the discussion.
You gotta be freakin kidding me. There is one person on these forums who always, ALWAYS says that SMN is gimp and broken and knocks it down: you, one who abandoned SMN at level 30-something (IIRC). If you really want your opinions of SMN to be taken more seriously, maybe you should find a few 60+ SMN who share them, first?

Suggestions on how to totally overpower SMN are not "constructive". Furthermore, if your opinion is that SMN is an interesting and useful job already, what "constructive" can you add to the discussion? If it doesn't need to be changed, then it doesn't need to have anything added to it.


That being said, there are some *individual* blood pacts that could use an overhaul. Frost and Lightning Armors, given the way fights actually work, their AoE nature isn't that useful and you shouldn't pay so much MP for so little duration. Whispering Wind costs way too much for what you get; ditto Crimson Howl. I haven't seen Rolling Thunder post-update so I don't know if it's been fixed or not. Glittering Ruby and Ultimate Terror are just too random - you don't know whether you're going to get any useful result or not. The first four could be helped just by making them cheaper (and for the enhancing ones, possibly longer lasting - the short duration of enhancing BPs really hampers trying to keep up several at once, so aside from really powerful ones like Hastega, 5+ minute timers should be the norm IMO). I honestly don't know what to do with GR and UT - even if they were cheap, it seems like players would probably prefer something they *knew* would help them.

But the overall structure of BPs in general is fine. It's just that the selection is a little lacking because of the presence of some individual weak BPs.

[Rain_Blade]

And the inane SMN bitching continues... even with a new toy and new subjob viability this week.

Its getting really, really old. Let it rest for while, man. Let's see how these changes impact things. These days, when we see one change happen with a job that's been neglected for a while, in the updates to follow, there are more changes more often than not. See: BST, PUP, DRG.


http://www.ffxionline.com/forums/ranger/67880-so-rng-got-stiffed-again.html
http://www.ffxionline.com/forums/beastmaster/66415-we-there-yet.html
http://www.ffxionline.com/forums/corsair/69098-if-you-must-mage-corsair-rant.html
http://www.ffxionline.com/forums/race-job-type-q/64277-so-you-think-brd-cor-rdm-don-t-need-further-adjustments-eh.html


Hmm. Rng got some pretty nice updates before. Ooo Corsair is on a roll! OH! Oh! I see Rdm may expect some nice changes. Oh!!!!!!!!!!!!! Summoner is getting a new ability!!!! Omfg!!!! OOOOO!! *sees the results* Oh... Another update to help main healing. Great. I guess that's...Alright.

Seriously, it's not gonna stop. Veterans continue to think of something as well as Newcomers. The complaining, bitching, or rants show that they really want something to be done with the Summoner job so that everyone is equally satisfied. The last HUGE update that I can remember about Summoner was the split BP timer. Of course I wouldn't expect HUGE as in increase all damage drastically or anything. If they complain, they complain.

New ideas is pretty much most Summoners talk about these days anyway. There's rarely a thread made about avatar battles and such since I suppose people are learning common sense, searching for themselves, or finding their own way of how to do what they need to do. If there were no rants about Summoner, most likely this section would barely have a thread in it (except a few help threads). So far, people react to results from the update fast. When updates come, the results, opinions, complaints, or joy comes in quickly. From what I've seen, the Summoners don't feel that it made a big impact, BUT the update did help; though, not in a way that it's "fixed" or "made right" or "impressively changed" OR whatever you want to put it.

The bitching does get old, but so does every other discussion on these forums. Veterans can point out many topics that have been discussed over and over. Admins try to put the most talked about topics in stickies, since others are tired of seeing the same things as well. Obviously, sometimes it doesn't work, but other times it does.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Look at those "rants" (the RNG one, from the start, was misinterpeted by people who, surprisingly, don't play RNG), and then look at the changes SE has made and has been planning for all of those jobs. SE seems to agree with me and has addressed my concerns.

My COR rant? Nothing to do with this topic. 75COR/WHM with Accuracy builds and level 22 bullets is ultimate fail and horribly common. That's a statement about players and thier flawed approach to the job, not what the job needs, making your "point" totally irrelevant. Too many people play COR unintelligently, which SE can't do anything about.

My statements about BST were made prior to SE's complete 180 on thier attitude toward updating BST at Fanfest. They said adjustments would come after initial ones. We got two before WotG instead. They clearly got some backlash from it and decided to prioritize BST for updates.

And, just to contrast, let's weigh all the SMN and RDM piss-pantsy bitchfests against my handful of "rants." I'd be crushed under the weight of them. SMN/RDM "job needs" posts are the most abundant on this forum and also the most tiresome.

By the way, way to try and turn my points against me, you totally succeeded :rolleyes:

[Rain_Blade]

Look at those "rants" (the RNG one, from the start, was misinterpeted by people who, surprisingly, don't play RNG), and then look at the changes SE has made and has been planning for all of those jobs. SE seems to agree with me and has addressed my concerns.

You're pretty much repeating a little of what I said and making it into your own words. Those "rants" were addressed, as you said. The Summoner's "rants" were not.

My COR rant? Nothing to do with this topic. 75COR/WHM with Accuracy builds and level 22 bullets is ultimate fail and horribly common. That's a statement about players and thier flawed approach to the job, not what the job needs, making your "point" totally irrelevant. Too many people play COR unintelligently, which SE can't do anything about.

You're right. It has nothing to do with this topic. It has to do with your statement that I quoted before. Your COR rant is still a rant. If you're gonna point other people's rant because you're tired of them, then look back on your own.


My statements about BST were made prior to SE's complete 180 on thier attitude toward updating BST at Fanfest. They said adjustments would come after initial ones. We got two before WotG instead. They clearly got some backlash from it and decided to prioritize BST for updates.

Once again, you're tiptoeing around what I was addressing. Even though you made statements (as you call them), there were very help adjustments after those "statements." Summoners have been complaining since forever and they've obtained an ability that they aren't completely happy with because it barely changes Summoner the way they hoped it would. The only thing left is the avatars SE promised would come.

And, just to contrast, let's weigh all the SMN and RDM piss-pantsy bitchfests against my handful of "rants." I'd be crushed under the weight of them. SMN/RDM "job needs" posts are the most abundant on this forum and also the most tiresome.

By the way, way to try and turn my points against me, you totally succeeded

No one was contrasting. I addressed it. The weighing of SMN and RDM rants to one person is clearly obvious. The list of links I put in spoilers were to address the rants you've made and think about the changes that have been made now about those jobs. If those changes did not happen, most likely those jobs would still be making threads about new ideas or complaints such as other jobs being powerful than them.

[Feba]

And I don't see how you make those arguments for SAM and NIN when both have the tools they need to do what they do already

SAM is very different depending on if it's /WAR or /THF. It's also pretty different as /RNG, but I'm not sure if anyone does that anymore. More than that, NIN is extremely different when it's /WAR and /BLM, or using any DD subjob that isn't WAR.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

The weighing of SMN and RDM rants to one person is clearly obvious. The list of links I put in spoilers were to address the rants you've made and think about the changes that have been made now about those jobs. If those changes did not happen, most likely those jobs would still be making threads about new ideas or complaints such as other jobs being powerful than them.

To put in real perspective, if I were to come here and look at the SMN and RDM threads here, I'd almost swear I was on the DRG forums on Alla half the time.

My point is that SMNs just got two huge boosts this week and without even trying them out, Malacite comes here and boo-hoos about the state of SMN. /SCH update is to mages what /SAM update was to two-handed melees and RNGs and SMN can now be really self-sufficient with Sublimation and Spirit Siphon in thier corner.

Think of it in terms of how BST was adjusted.

First, we get increased duration on various HQ jug pets and the improved +hHP adjustment to Stay. This was a major improvement in itself. Then we get something we didn't even anticipate just prior to WotG's release - Snarl. Total enmity transfer to our pets every 30 secons. Pretty damn huge. And now, they finally give us another layer of pet endurance by halving the recast timer on Reward.

So SMN is really at the start of its tweaks, more will likely come and then there's the two new avatars.

I didn't see a lot of BSTs turn around and start whining again after the Jug and Stay updates, and yet, that's exactly what Malacite is doing. Nothings ever gonna be good enough with SMN for him until its god of all jobs.

[Malacite]

SCH update is to mages what /SAM update was to two-handed melees and RNGs and SMN can now be really self-sufficient with Sublimation and Spirit Siphon in thier corner.


That's nice, but it still doesn't change the fact that several blood pacts are weak, SMN still has a huge dependency on it's sub job and the DoT of avatars is totally not worth the MP spent or the TP given to the mob.


ZOMG so it just happened to be right after the update! I MUST BE TEH ANGRY N00BS!

Chill out much? I just had a passing thought and decided to make a thread on it. More to the point, why the fuck are you even posting here if it upsets you this much? No one's forcing you read all these threads, so stop aggravating yourself.

[Vyuru]

Smn are pretty good as is, I think what we need to see is a little more summon independence from the summoner somehow.

Maybe make the summons a little bit like the elementals in that they cast spells independant of the summoner. Maybe make it so that each summon has a different focus on what spells it likes to cast or something as well. So for instance Leviathan may focus on healing/status removal while Garuda would focus more on Haste/DD/healing, and I dunno about the rest. Give Smns a reason to leave them out and leave the BP for the big stuff.

Maybe instead of BP being what summons do they become more of a guide for what the summoner wants the summon to do, otherwise the summon acts independantly of the smn.

Maybe acts independantly of the smn is a bad way to put it, maybe saying the summon freestyles party play unless the summoner uses a BP is better?

Actually it could be fun if you could set the summons to do different things kinda like the NPC system. Go Diabolos tank! :P

Anywho, just tossing stuff out randomly.

[Sabaron]

1st to Rainblade. The New SMN update isn't just a method to increase your healing capacity. That's a totally negative way to look at it. For a naked, hume SMN75, as I have mentioned in another thread, you''ll be getting the equivalent of approximately 2.7mp per tick Refresh from Elemental Siphon. This gives you that extra mp that SMNs have been bitching about not having forever that would allow you to keep your avatar out continuously. The restriction of not being able to rest while using Sublimation from /SCH forces you to stand and further boosts your "Refresh" by about 1.6mp/tick naked which is equivalent to about +5.3hMP when resting which, while significantly weaker than resting where a SMN can push 63hMP for first tick or 18.9mp per tick Refresh-equivalent, is much more useful since you can't actually do anything while you're resting.

18.9mp per tick is a bit inflated since we can't rest continually. The question now becomes "What percentage of my time do I have to spend resting to equate to Sublimation's Refresh Potential?"

The answer is subject to your gear of course, but we're going to take our naked, unmerited, vanilla Hume SMN75/SCH37 who has about 890mp (give or take subjob mp). He gets 222mp from sublimation at a rate of 2mp/tick or 333 seconds and has to cast Regen II (33mp) to fix it and we have a 30 second wait in between uses of Sublimation so that's 189mp/363 seconds = 0.521mp/sec (1.562mp/tick).

We have to look at hmp in terms of tick-blocks, and we have to make an assumption or we have too many variables and everything gets over-complicated. We'll make two different assumptions for comparison: a 3-tick block (40 seconds resting yields 63+65+67 = 195mp/40sec or 4.875mp/sec) and a 5-tick block (60 seconds resting yields 63+65+67+69+71 = 335mp/60sec or 5.58mp/sec).

x is the fraction of my time I have to spend resting to make my hMP roughly equivalent to Sublimation.
5-tick block: x * 5.58 = 0.521 or 0.521/5.58 = 0.09 (9%)
3-tick block: x * 4.875 = 0.521 or 0.521/4.875 = 0.11 (11%)

So we can conclude that Sublimation (in the case of someone with +63hMP) is roughly equivalent to 10% rest time (i.e. a SMN/SCH needs to rest about 10% less than a SMN/WHM).

BTW the gear a SMN needs to get that:
Base: Clear mind V: +27
Dark Staff: +10
Yigit Turban: +2
Grandiose Chain/Beak Necklace +1: +2
Errant Houppelande: +5
Hierarch Belt/Qiqirn Sash: +2
Yigit Serawheels: +2
Goliard Clogs: +3
Relaxing Earring: +2
Magnetic Earring: +1
Wizard Cookie: +7
27+10+2+2+5+2+2+3+2+1+7 = 63hMP

I think a nice combination of Sublimation and a nice rest period will end up being the best bang for your buck. For instance Sublimate for 5.5 minutes (333 seconds), and then rest for 60 seconds...

393 second combined cycle yielding 189+335 = 524mp/393seconds * 3seconds/tick = 4mp/tick Refresh Equivalent. Babam... sounds lovely to me.

Remember if you have HQ Staff, using avatar of the day with Summoner's Doublet, Evoker's Ring, and Evoker's Pigachet's +1, you can get -8 Perpetuation or 13-8 = 5mp/tick Big Avatar cost. You want Garuda to fight while you're Sublimating right? Go for it. Your sublimation/rest cycle is paying for most of her and your auto-refresh takes care of the rest. You can use your Siphon to make up for Refresh and if you've got a Bard, you should be overflowing with mp, resting only 60 seconds out of every 6.5 minutes--15% of the time which means Garuda is out 85% of the time. How can you not be a happy SMN?

I still stand behind the SMN improvement of adding elemental damage (like an Enspell based on SMN skill) to each of the Avatar's attacks.

I will agree, though, that a few of the more useless pacts are in need of a bit of a boost--even if it ends up making them cost more.

-----------------------------------
One more edit and I promise I'm done (for now):

I hope someone wants to try this (and report back of course). Do a meripo as Main Heal (not Colibri please) SMN/SCH with a BRD refresher. See if you can Parse out your avatar's damage and try to ball park how much time you rest (that's a toughy, I know). Then report back the results. Remember that you need to start resting as soon as you activate Sublimation the second time so that those 30 seconds of downtime coincide closely with your first two rest ticks.

Remember, at Fanfest (can't remember which one), SE stated they wanted SMNs to have a reason to keep their avatars out more often instead of Summon/Banish techniques. Malacite's changes will only increase the Summon/Banish effect which runs contrary to SE's intentions for SMN. This MP boost is right in line with it. I think, like Alan Greenspan and the interest rate, if they need to bump SMN again to get them to whip their avatars out for fighting, I'm hoping for the perma-Enspell upgrade.

[Thoris]

i need to agree with malacite.

For only able to do 1 attack per min and do really low dmg or even miss.

for example. In the dunes as a lv 17 smn my carby will do poison nails. If he hits him he might do 38 dmg to the mob 1 TIME PER MIN.

That is just retarded, It should at least do like 70+ dmg varying on skill of course. The dmg needs to scale alot higher and there dmg output for melee needs to be higher

[Sabaron]

i need to agree with malacite.

For only able to do 1 attack per min and do really low dmg or even miss.

for example. In the dunes as a lv 17 smn my carby will do poison nails. If he hits him he might do 38 dmg to the mob 1 TIME PER MIN.

That is just retarded, It should at least do like 70+ dmg varying on skill of course. The dmg needs to scale alot higher and there dmg output for melee needs to be higher

SMN Merits can be used to significantly improve avatar melee output:


Avatar Physical Accuracy (http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Avatar_Physical_Accuracy) (+3 per upgrade) Max +15
Avatar Physical Attack (http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Avatar_Physical_Attack) (+2 per upgrade) Max +10The damage does scale with level, but remember that SMN is not intended to be a BST or PUP. SMN has too many other abilities for it's avatars to ever come close to the DPS of a PUP or BST in attack mode.

Carbuncle is also quite weak in comparison to the beefier avatars like Fenrir and Garuda. Reserve your judgment until you see how well you do with more advanced avatars. When you see Predator Claws you'll understand.

[Rain_Blade]

1st to Rainblade. The New SMN update isn't just a method to increase your healing capacity. That's a totally negative way to look at it.

It wasn't from my point of view. It was imitation from most of the Summoner's reaction to the results.

[Thoris]

i was a Lv 70 smn, but i quit. i just started over. now pup can buff heal, nuke, melee. Do u think its weird that pup can do all of that and still out-dmg us by a huge margin.

[Sabaron]

i was a Lv 70 smn, but i quit. i just started over. now pup can buff heal, nuke, melee. Do u think its weird that pup can do all of that and still out-dmg us by a huge margin.


PUP can't buff.

Automatons can only be resummoned on a 20 minute timer if they die.

PUP can't tank or kite as efficiently as SMN.

PUP can't change roles quickly (they have to Unsummon, Re-equip, and Redeploy, resetting their recast timer).

PUP's pet doesn't follow orders as well.


Yes, PUP is powerful, and I'm not disagreeing that SMN needs a bit of a kick in the damage department. I'm just saying that since SE indicated that they want SMN pet melee that increasing pact usage will not be the direction they move in. Thus my hypothesis that the next adjustment will be some kind of melee buff like Enspell damage.

[Thoris]

PUP can't buff.

Automatons can only be resummoned on a 20 minute timer if they die.

PUP can't tank or kite as efficiently as SMN.

PUP can't change roles quickly (they have to Unsummon, Re-equip, and Redeploy, resetting their recast timer).

PUP's pet doesn't follow orders as well.


Yes, PUP is powerful, and I'm not disagreeing that SMN needs a bit of a kick in the damage department. I'm just saying that since SE indicated that they want SMN pet melee that increasing pact usage will not be the direction they move in. Thus my hypothesis that the next adjustment will be some kind of melee buff like Enspell damage.


Ok they cant really buff that well, but at kiting they are very good. Fighting krin i had valor kite him with full evasion attachments, Def attachments, and the regen attachment and you have a very good kiter that will still attack and stay alive.

Avatars have very very weak Def, automations have a bit better better withe the right gear. Also dont count at Role reversal and Repair.

There are many smns that i know of that stoped doing sky and sea as smn, and go pup instead.

[Malacite]

Nah not necessarily Sab.


As it stands, summoning the avatars themselves is fairly cheap. That's something that could (and IMO should) be changed along with the previous proposals. Lower the cost of perpetuation, and change the cost of pacts a bit (some lower, some possibly higher) but jack the cost to actually bring out the avatars.

That, along with a few shared timers (maybe instead of a separate timer for each spell, put more pacts into more categories similar to DNC) should help to stem the trend of summon&release, as well as general boost to avatar DoT (preferably as you said through automatic enspell effects)


My biggest concern is still the job's dependency on SJ and the cast-and-release style. I'm not saying SMN should never sub WHM or SCH to cure people, far from it; just that they could stand to do so a bit less and use one of the 3 healing avatars (particularly Carbuncle) for main healing instead.


Am I the only one who finds it odd that the cost to actually summon these gods is so low? I think the cost to summon and maintain them should scale with level and skill. That is, the higher you get, the more it costs to bring them out, but the less it costs to maintain them once they're out. It kind of hurts a SMN who wants/needs to rip through avatars quickly (and will suck for the lv 20 mini forks ><) but this way it would be more practical to leave them out.

And god forbid they change it so a SMN can rest MP with an avatar out >_>

Maybe give them a new trait (that can be subbed or has to be merited?) to allow them to do so?

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

My biggest concern is still the job's dependency on SJ and the cast-and-release style. I'm not saying SMN should never sub WHM or SCH to cure people, far from it; just that they could stand to do so a bit less and use one of the 3 healing avatars (particularly Carbuncle) for main healing instead.

Problem is, SE has somewhat defined PUP is the premire pet healer job now. DRG and SMN still have pets that heal, but not in such diverse ways as the Soulsoother automation.

[Malacite]

I don't see how that's a problem.

WHM's been the "premiere" healer for ages, even though RDM and SCH can arguably do a better job, and SMN came first.

I really think there'd be enough differences between a SMN main healing with their avatar vs a PUP doing so with the automaton that it wouldn't really hurt PUP. Besides why not have one more job that can heal through its pet? Granted PUP has to cough up quite a good chunk of money and needs lv 50 to get the Soulsoother but still.

Raising the costs of summoning the avatars also helps to deal with one your "concerns" BBQ, which is the fact that avatars are basically expendable. I for one don't think SMN should be exempt from this rule given that PUP and DRG aren't, and BST (to a much lesser extent) aren't.

There are enough tools at SE's disposal to power up SMN in such a way as to make it more fun and shift the focus towards using the avatars and spirits more without over powering the job. It's by no means simple, but SE's had plenty of time to do so and come up with IMO quite minimal results. A series of bandaid fixes and new shinies here and there, but nothing that addresses the fundamental flaw that avatars just plain suck and that WHM has basically been a crutch for SMN to stand on the past 5 years.


The new Syphon ability is a step in the right direction but they really need to do more. Everyone plays SMN for the avatars, so why have they made it so unpracticle to keep 'em out? Just fix it so that we can keep them out more often and rely more on their powers than our sub job's.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

I don't see how that's a problem.

Of course not, overpowering the job isn't a problem at all. Let's just make SMN as MP efficient as DRG/Mage, give them all the single target cures, regens of Automations and let them have raw DD like BST pets. Totally balanced. :rolleyes:

I really think there'd be enough differences between a SMN main healing with their avatar vs a PUP doing so with the automaton that it wouldn't really hurt PUP. Besides why not have one more job that can heal through its pet? Granted PUP has to cough up quite a good chunk of money and needs lv 50 to get the Soulsoother but still.

Highlighted for emphasis. Building the best automation takes a ton more work than obtaining all avatars combined. SMN challenges for his power - and SMN gets its best power at endgame, at the end of the SMNs journey (thematic consistancy). PUP has to pay through the nose, do ENMs or Assault like crazy to pimp out that automation.

Raising the costs of summoning the avatars also helps to deal with one your "concerns" BBQ, which is the fact that avatars are basically expendable. I for one don't think SMN should be exempt from this rule given that PUP and DRG aren't, and BST (to a much lesser extent) aren't.

Raising the cost of summoning, combined with the existing perputation cost, isn't helping SMN and forcing the summon/release trend you want to avoid even further.


There are enough tools at SE's disposal to power up SMN in such a way as to make it more fun and shift the focus towards using the avatars and spirits more without over powering the job. It's by no means simple, but SE's had plenty of time to do so and come up with IMO quite minimal results. A series of bandaid fixes and new shinies here and there, but nothing that addresses the fundamental flaw that avatars just plain suck and that WHM has basically been a crutch for SMN to stand on the past 5 years.


Again, SMN gets the peak of its power at endgame, touch that, try to bump it up in the eariler levels and you've unbalanced it for the rest of the game. SMNs gain ultimate power in exchange for frailty, that's always been the theme

And, for the millionth time, what better subjobs are there for SMN than WHM and SCH? You never answer this, you just come up with "fixes" that steal directly from other jobs.

[Malacite]

Yeah because using Carbuncle to heal instead of Cure is sooooooo broken....


Raising the cost of summoning, combined with the existing perputation cost, isn't helping SMN and forcing the summon/release trend you want to avoid even further.

Yet again you're not even listening. I threw out raising the cost to summon them while lowering perpetuation costs relative to skill level as an idea. I don't see you offering anything other than criticism. Your last point isn't even valid, given that I'm not talking about changing what subjob should be best for SMN, but rather it's dependency on it. BIG DIFFERENCE.

Furthermore, this wouldn't do anything to SMN's power curve. It would still gain the better abilities as it goes along. I'm just calling for more accessibility to those powers. "YAY I CAN SUMMON A FREAKING GOD THAT DOES JACK SHIT WHILE MY TIMERS ARE DOWN!!!" >_>

Seriously there's just no fun in that. Oh yay, I get to do one or two things that are cool once or twice a minute then go right back to being a WHM... aww what's that? The BLM just did double my DMG with the same spell my avatar used? Well damn...

Aww look at at that, the DRK just shredded that mob while my avatar was doing less damage than I would have and feeding it 10 TP a hit...


etc. etc. I don't see why you're so opposed to the notion of keeping avatars out and relying more on their abilities. Why don't we just take provoke away from WAR while we're at it, or axe utsusemi altogether. Yeah that'll be fun...

Or maybe you'd like to see BRD and COR get a major nerf to lessen their impact on parties.

[Eiyoko]

I don't see what all the fuss is about with Summoner. I think it operates just fine. Sure, SMN could probably use a boost, but it doesn't need anything drastic if you ask me.

As for the initial suggestion, it's good that SMN will get more to do at once in a small amount of time, but the downside is if we decide to use a good number of those abilities in a small amount of time, we can pretty much kiss our MP goodbye.

Also, an avatar is still considered a "pet". If you made the avatar too powerful, then to balance the job then the summoner itself would likely have to be weakened in some way or another...otherwise you're basically having two players for the price of one, and that'd be pretty unfair.

Also, considering the AI control SMN has over its pets compared to other jobs, I think the tradeoff works just fine.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Yeah because using Carbuncle to heal instead of Cure is sooooooo broken....

Considering you can resummon Carbuncle as much as you want and a PUP can only resummon an automation every 20 minutes, it would be extremely broken. You don't seem to get the fact that other jobs have deal with large timers, spend notable sums of gil or both to make pet melee happen. SMN sits on its butt and resummons a god in far less time.

You claim to understand the differences between the jobs, but you're not showing it.

Yet again you're not even listening. I threw out raising the cost to summon them while lowering perpetuation costs relative to skill level as an idea. I don't see you offering anything other than criticism. Your last point isn't even valid, given that I'm not talking about changing what subjob should be best for SMN, but rather it's dependency on it. BIG DIFFERENCE.

You're not listening to your own ideas. EVEN IF you lowered perpetuation costs, the high cost of the avatars would force the MP issue. SMN just got two means of negating these costs further - you haven't even tried them yet, your SMN is only like 30, completely without Spirit Siphon - who are you to judge?

And my last point is extremely valid. You claim /WHM and /SCH defines SMN and that is a problem. What subjobs could redefine SMN? What does it really need to define it as a main job (sans the typical nostalgic BS)? Answer the question, stop dodging it.

[Malacite]

I don't see what all the fuss is about with Summoner. I think it operates just fine. Sure, SMN could probably use a boost, but it doesn't need anything drastic if you ask me.

As for the initial suggestion, it's good that SMN will get more to do at once in a small amount of time, but the downside is if we decide to use a good number of those abilities in a small amount of time, we can pretty much kiss our MP goodbye.

Also, an avatar is still considered a "pet". If you made the avatar too powerful, then to balance the job then the summoner itself would likely have to be weakened in some way or another...otherwise you're basically having two players for the price of one, and that'd be pretty unfair.

Also, considering the AI control SMN has over its pets compared to other jobs, I think the tradeoff works just fine.


With the recent addition of Magic Mortar and the wtfpwn that SCH has now become, I don't think it would be terribly unreasonable to let SMN's use their pacts more often.

I think the best way to do it would be with more pact categories similar to how DNC has it's various dances divided up. You give each pact it's own timer, but also a timer on the pact menu (like how Divine Waltz and Healing Waltz have different recasts that will affect when you can do another Waltz)

And if a SMN wants to be stupid and blow all their MP in a blaze of pacts, that's their problem. I also think that any enmity accumulated through the avatar should get transfered to the SMN when it goes away (at least half anyway) thus putting yet more emphasis on keeping said avatar in good condition as opposed to their current expendable status.

[Kitalrez]

No, that last one is a terrible idea. Being an aggro free DD/heal/buffer is our ace in the hole right now. You take that away and no one wants to play this job at the end. I realize you haven't leveled this job since you gave up in frustration, but don't nerf our endgame to make the journey to it easier. If you want to make it easier to level, great, but keep the reward for actually leveling intact or you defeat the purpose of doing it.

If you change anything about us, maybe let us keep the ability to buff AE style in alliances like we do in campaign. I'd like to be at the point where an LS wants me to come on SMN, and they get annoyed when none of us show. Give me the ability to haste or earthen ward 18 people at once, make me useful and wanted on my main job. Right now, we have the ability to make long hard fights like Horns of War trivially easy with avatars. Most hnmls's don't realize this yet, but it's growing. That ability hinges on us not building up mass aggro while everyone else rests or debuffs, if we lose that ability, there's just one less thing for us to do later but play cure tank again. If they think they have to kite Kaiser Behemoth for that? Hell, I won't be called upon to BP him to death... someone sees I miss 3 of those due to kiting range and I'll be lucky if I get asked to ever use Pred Claws in a raid again.

[Malacite]

Hey, I'm just tossing every idea I can come up with on how to balance out the powering up of the job ><; it's not easy.

[MrMageo]

Hmmm I don't see the job needing a balancing f power up's. To be perfectly honest I think SMN is about as "fixed" as it will be. Lets look at some things here.

Self Skill Chains

SMN is one of the few jobs that has the aility to preform a self SC, Through the use of Staff WS and a BP, with an A- in Staff a SMN should have little to no trouble building TP on party mobs. This extra little amount of damae can boost a parties chains, or kill faster solo. (SAM,BLU,DNC are the only other self SC jobs without using a subjob)

Skill Chains

A SMN Has the ability to preform Skill Chains with any job in the game, Using BP's SMN has the power to preform a SC every minute. This is often looked over but the power this provides should not be ignored.

MB's

The ability to Magic Burst other skill chains, nuff said

AoE cures

Able to take care of status ailments use curaga 1 time a minute without the need for DS, Accession and the like, is extremley powerful. The MP cost is pretty friendly if you consider some of these moves are more powerful than their counterparts.

AoE Buffs

The ability to buff the party with blink Stoneskin etc is paramount at times, having an extra layer of protection or haste once a minute is a pretty powerful ability. Again the MP cost is fair considering the MP you have saved from curing by yourself or the other mages.

AoE enfeebles

Slowga, Sleepga, Paraga,. Having these abilities early in the game, means 2 things. You have more powerful debuffs then the RDM, and when used the -ga debuff from slow can not be removed by a self targeting haste buff or spell, pretty powerful I say.

Teir 2-4 Nukes

Teir 2-4 nukes long before even a BLM gets them, while not as powerful, the ability to magic burst with teir 4 @ lvl 60 can not be overlooked its a powerful addition to any party.

BP's

BP's are extremley pwerful when used correctly, they carry the element of the avatar in them, using a Shiva BP on a beetle leaves very impresive numbers. Yes there are some crap BP's, but there are alot of cap spells and abilities in this game the way around it, DONT USE IT. Properly used in conjunction with WS's brings on a SC. Properly used can enfeeb a mob in a pinch (thunderspark= paralyze)

Mal I dont think you respect all that a SMN brings to the table. The job is not defined by what it subs it is defined by how you use it. If you don't bother to time your BP usage for a SC, then yes your not producing to your full potential, If your not producing to your full potential then your not playing the job adn if your not playing the job you may as well quit. (Oh you did)

Prsonally when I build a party I dont expect a SMN to be main heal, I expect them to do what their job can do, which includes heal. Just like RDM I dont expect them to main heal, but they better toss some cures out because it is part of the job. The definition you claim to be rampant about SMN's main healing, is false, it is what you make of it. You can do more in a party then just main heal, if u dont like to main heal you can not party. Just like the RDM's who bitch and moan about main healing and dont do anything about it, either dont main heal, or prove you can do other things while main healing.

SMN is going to see in the future about the same amount of updates RDM and MNK have seen in the last 4 years. With the exception of new avatars. SMN has really come into its own this update, and has more capability to do any of those above things more often in a party now. Ifact im going to level my SMN right now just looking at all the stuff it can do, its kinda like a RDM who uses avatars, i think i might like it.

[Malacite]

I'm going to have to completely disagree with you. Avatars totally suck for DoT leading up to 75, and pacts are way too limited. There are several that need fixing (Well, Rolling Thunder finally became decent but there are still others that suck) and you can not deny the fact that it is terribly inefficient to keep avatars out for very long.

I think the best thing for SE to do is to further divide the blood pacts. Separate them into 4 categories: Physical Offensive, Healing, Enhancing and Magical Offensive. If they handled them in the same manner as DNC's dances then I think we'd be set. It'd be nice if we could use the lv 70 BP's for a chain and then MB off that chain with one of the merit pacts.

That would obviously eat up a crapload of MP but it'd be fun and a nice chunk of spike damage. And as I've said a million times, god forbid we use blood pacts to main heal instead of cures.

That's what it boils down to for me. More use of the avatars and their powers, not /WHM or /SCH's.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

That's what it boils down to for me. More use of the avatars and their powers, not /WHM or /SCH's.

Zillionth Time, what subjob is going to trump /WHM and /SCH?

If you're really desparate, I could point out /COR offers Pet Attack and Pet Accuracy bonuses, but Drachen Roll (which gives Pet MAB+ and MAcc+) is well out of the reach of the subjob.

Aside from COR, there's RDM and BLU and - guess what? - those subjobs can cure, too. There's really no way out until SE makes another subjob that enhances a pet user's abilities. But then, this isn't a problem that PUP, DRG or BST need to worry about. It shouldn't be a problem for SMN, either, but then, they're the ones living in denial about why they're invited. Some just accept it and make it to 75 and reach the peak of thier potential, some just refuse to.

[MrMageo]

I think the best thing for SE to do is to further divide the blood pacts. Separate them into 4 categories: Physical Offensive, Healing, Enhancing and Magical Offensive. If they handled them in the same manner as DNC's dances then I think we'd be set. It'd be nice if we could use the lv 70 BP's for a chain and then MB off that chain with one of the merit pacts.

So you want cake and eat it too....

This is ridiculously broken on so many levels. If i am understanding correctly you want seperate timers for cures, buff, BP's and nukes. How is that any different then having the BP and WP on seperate timers for each avatar. Instead of needing to switvh out your avatars you can just leave one out cure, buff, BP nuke, cure buff, BP, nuke. Thats even more ovepowered then your first thought.

All SMN needs is a way to negate the MP cost to them by using their avatars. Oh wait they got it already Siphon and at 70 sublimation. I dont see how you could want anything else. SCH has just hopped to #2 in MP regeneration, id they choose to use /SCH.

You want better BP's, what about the jobs that have Junk WS's, how often do you see flat blade tossed out, or wasp sting. All jobs have semi usless things that come with them, SMN is no different.

You stopped leveling your SMN @ 30 according to what others have said, so how do you know how it works later in the game Have you ever seen or bursted with a teir 4 @ lvl 60, 10 lvls before BLM gets them. Have you ever used your avatar to SC with somone so the BLM/RDM/SCH/PUP could burst off it.

Did you forget that this is a party game and all jobs are designed to help the party in their own way. SMN is no different. Do you know why 99% of SMN's sub whm. Its not because they arent allowed to sub anything else, its because they can support their party still while the avatars BP and WP are down. /WHM and /SCH does define the job, it makes the more effective for the party. If I was in a party where the SMN didnt use its BP's and WP's and only cured I would boot them and get a whm. I dont invite jobs based off the sub. I invite based off what they can do. If a ranger came RNG/WHM, he would still be pulling and if he didnt booted. If a RDM came RDM/WAR, hed still be enfeeblin, hasting, refreshing if he didnt booted. If a NIN came NIN/WAR and dosent use all his spells, booted. ee what I am saying, in none of those situations does the subjob come into it. A SMN could come SMN/WHM, but if they didnt use BP's, WP's theyd be gone.

A subjob does not define a job, ever. It merley enhances what that job can already do. I noticed earlier you said NIN/WAR is defined by its subjob. You are wrong. I have been in several parties where I had a main tank NIN/BLM. They have held hate as well as or better than most NIN/WAR i have partied with. Provoke is a tool for hate not a job defining ability. PLD's dont need to /WAR they do so to have another set of tools to hold hate. RDM dosent need to /WHM or /BLM they do because they provide another set of tools to support. and SMN dosent need to /WHM or /SCH but they do so they have another set of tools to support with.

[Malacite]

This is ridiculously broken on so many levels. If i am understanding correctly you want seperate timers for cures, buff, BP's and nukes. How is that any different then having the BP and WP on seperate timers for each avatar.

Extremely. Separate timers for each avatar would allow you to cycle through the avatars spamming the lv 70 BP's.

[MrMageo]

and spaming everything an avatar can do every minutes isnt lvl smn youll see why you cant have them out all the time youll see why you get a minutes between timers

[Karinya]

Hmmm I don't see the job needing a balancing f power up's. To be perfectly honest I think SMN is about as "fixed" as it will be. Lets look at some things here.

Skill Chains

A SMN Has the ability to preform Skill Chains with any job in the game, Using BP's SMN has the power to preform a SC every minute. This is often looked over but the power this provides should not be ignored.

MB's

The ability to Magic Burst other skill chains, nuff said
Maybe with the recent adjustment to SC resist rates, they will make a comeback; otherwise this point is moot in most parties, unfortunately. Would be cool in a static though, with players who don't go "110% tp, eww, must spam ws immediately".
AoE cures

Able to take care of status ailments use curaga 1 time a minute without the need for DS, Accession and the like, is extremley powerful. The MP cost is pretty friendly if you consider some of these moves are more powerful than their counterparts.
Agreed with the exception of Whispering Wind, which costs a crapload of mp for no apparent reason. It's weaker than spring water and doesn't remove debuffs, so why does it cost so much? Spring Water and HR2 are damn nice though (at least, from observing SMNs using them - I'm not that high level with it myself yet.)
AoE Buffs

The ability to buff the party with blink Stoneskin etc is paramount at times, having an extra layer of protection or haste once a minute is a pretty powerful ability. Again the MP cost is fair considering the MP you have saved from curing by yourself or the other mages.
Also, Fenrir and Diabolos, if you have them, have some buffs that are hard or impossible to get otherwise. Not quite bard caliber buffs, but then, bards don't have 1000 mp and a hate free spike of several hundred damage every minute.
AoE enfeebles

Slowga, Sleepga, Paraga,. Having these abilities early in the game, means 2 things. You have more powerful debuffs then the RDM, and when used the -ga debuff from slow can not be removed by a self targeting haste buff or spell, pretty powerful I say.
I haven't seen much use for these. Their AOE-ness is normally pointless because you're only fighting one enemy at a time; if you do have several, you can't use thunderspark (what I assume you meant by 'paraga') because it will wake sleepers.

Hate free sleep might come in handy, though. IIRC Shiva's sleep is actually ice based, which makes a difference for resists on some mobs (bats come to mind).

Some attack BPs have an enfeebling side effect, too - particularly Tail Whip's gravity, which is another eva down that stacks with Fenrir's (which, IIRC, is a ward, so you actually can use both together at the start of a fight).
Teir 2-4 Nukes

Teir 2-4 nukes long before even a BLM gets them, while not as powerful, the ability to magic burst with teir 4 @ lvl 60 can not be overlooked its a powerful addition to any party.
Agreed, except it would be really nice if they got tier 3 at 40ish (for suitable cost and effectiveness), there's an excessively long gap between the level 10 and level 60 magical BPs. Oh well, at least the level 10s are cheap - you might not match a BLM's raw damage, but you'll probably beat their damage/mp even after counting the summon and perp costs. (And the BLM will get hate for his own nuke.)
BP's

BP's are extremley pwerful when used correctly, they carry the element of the avatar in them, using a Shiva BP on a beetle leaves very impresive numbers. Yes there are some crap BP's, but there are alot of cap spells and abilities in this game the way around it, DONT USE IT. Properly used in conjunction with WS's brings on a SC. Properly used can enfeeb a mob in a pinch (thunderspark= paralyze)
You're right that some BPs are very good, but I disagree with what you said about the weak ones: you *can* just not use them, but they're still a flaw in the job. I don't support the kind of radical changes Mal wants to make to SMN, but I do think some of the gimped BPs should be improved - partly to enhance one of the true strengths of the job, which is its versatility, and partly because I don't like seeing cool ideas fail for lack of numerical effectiveness.

A couple of other minor points:

- SMN can choose whether to do physical or magical damage. This is helpful against ahriman/pot magic shields, monsters with high physical defense but no magic defense or vice versa... basically, there is no wrong mob for SMN the way bones are for DRG/RNG/THF, ahrimans (or colibri) for BLM or slimes for MNK. SMN can even enfeeble a monster with magic shield up, by using one of the physical BPs with an enfeebling side effect.

- Different BPs have different physical damage types. Most actual physical DD jobs don't have that kind of choice, or have to change to a distinctly weaker weapon to get it.

- SMN's nuking isn't biased toward any particular element. If you're fighting an orc, their water spells are just as strong as their thunder or ice ones. And that pattern holds at all levels.

- IIRC, blood pacts can't be imitated by colibris even when they have the same name as a spell (like tier 4 nukes). This is an advantage for SMN over traditional mages.

(Flames deleted - I don't think Mal is the *only* person to want this kind of change to smn anyway.)
SMN is going to see in the future about the same amount of updates RDM and MNK have seen in the last 4 years. With the exception of new avatars. SMN has really come into its own this update, and has more capability to do any of those above things more often in a party now. Ifact im going to level my SMN right now just looking at all the stuff it can do, its kinda like a RDM who uses avatars, i think i might like it.
It's on my short list for next main, too. So many cool jobs, so little time...

[Malacite]

w/e, honestly to hell with you all. Everyone's always coming down on me saying every little thing I suggest (keeping in mind this is all speculation to begin with as SE has the final say in everything) is broken and shooting it down.

Why you people support the current dependency on SMN's SJ I'll never understand. Clearly you all find it just boatloads of fun to join a party only to cast 1 or two avatar buffs here and there and not really have any sort of fun with them whatsoever.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

You don't bring any logic or comprehension of job/game balance to the table. You refuse to address the subjob issue and instead just tell us SMN shouldn't be defined by subjob.

Guess what? SMN isn't the only job thats limited like this. NIN and PLD are somewhat restricted by party and alliance definitions and thus limited to certain subjobs. You can't level NIN as a DD, its just not tolerated by the community, you're seen as a tank period and there is no getting out of it. What about those that wanted to play NIN as a DD? Where's your argument for them?

Or is it because you see NIN as a tank and don't disagree with it being one?

Finally, you can't dream up a fix without directly stealing ideas from other jobs or wrecking the balance between jobs. That's why every little idea you have gets torn to bits.

[MrMageo]

Why you people support the current dependency on SMN's SJ I'll never understand. Clearly you all find it just boatloads of fun to join a party only to cast 1 or two avatar buffs here and there and not really have any sort of fun with them whatsoever.

SMN isnt dependent on the subjob it chooses. It is one of the few RoZ jobs that are fairly self reliant in what it can do. People chose/Choose to sub whm because it offered the SMN a way to additionally support the party. People choose to /SCH because it offers them additional ways to conserve MP. /SCH allows you to keep your SMN out for 2MP less then the normal cost. Making More summons clser to being "free". Allowing them to assist the PT through melee, even solo a undesired link until the party can fight it. If you look above the healing, (which supports the party) SMN offers alot more to the party outside of the little bag of tricks BP's bring.

In my carear I have seen SMN's sub many different things other than /WHM, I have seen BLM,NIN,BLU all for different reasons, its not a dependency on subjob it is a preferance on subjob. As BBQ said NIN and PLD are limited to the choices, however they are choosing WAR as a sub for more hate control tools to better support the party

[Malacite]

Can a mod please just close this thread? I'm really not interested in debating this anymore.

[Mhurron]

So stop posting. Others might want to continue the topic.

[Rain_Blade]

All I'm gonna say is, as far as I know, SE doesn't know what to do with this job just as much as we do. They're scared to touch it.

[MrMageo]

I would be too, IMO it works fine, it dosent really need anything except for maybe the TP idea petryx had in another thread. It certainly dosent need to have lower timers, or seperate timers as that would just increase MP consumption more, and SE has already solved that issue that plauged SMN through siphon and /SCH @ 70

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

All I'm gonna say is, as far as I know, SE doesn't know what to do with this job just as much as we do. They're scared to touch it.

People said that about BST, hell, I said that about BST.
People said that about PUP.
People said that about DRG.
People said that about SAM.
People said that about RNG.

SE has improved them all and mostly by means the players didn't dream up. They understand the jobs better than you think they do. After all the great changes they've made to other jobs, its sickening to see SMNs still playing the bitter bitch.

[Kitalrez]

I'm sorry if this has become an "Everyone hates Malacite" thread for you, but the problem with debates is that people aren't supposed to win them IRL. You don't score points for good arguments, or force the other person into submission. You discuss things and hopefully each side learns something at the end. Aristotle was full of crap. The problem with this thread is that we've had this discussion before. We had it on every single SMN board out there before BP Rage and Ward went in. This was the discussion that brought them about. You're not creating a new concept, you're just messing with the numbers we've already hashed out. The problem is that as soon as you split timers further you end up with this:

X number of SMN go into Limbus/Dynamis... and take over. Everyone can get relic, everyone can get AFv2, ancient currency of all types becomes easy to obtain, the market for other items in this range is dragged down as a result, and this drags down every item leading up to that point as well.

It used to be that the best way to solve any end-game problem was to throw more BLMs at it. BLMs got adjusted to fix this. We don't want to be the new universal tool job. You can't really divide ward or rage any further without starting us down that path. Say you take out the over 65 pacts from your calculation or just split them off? Give them a new category we earn at 65 SMN... what then? The more you split, the more menus we have to navigate. To the end that it takes us even longer to pull off a skillchain. Then people start missing them, we get blamed, no one wants us around except for end-game. These things have a tendency to backfire, you need to consider this.

I understand your pain at the mid levels, we've all been there. But the fix you're proposing breaks more than it fixes. It's gotta be timers in your opinion, and no, it doesn't. If you're going to fix things, try fixing spirit timers or avatar damage and accuracy. If carby hit as hard as that THF using knuckles at the Dunes levels? Sure, we'd be a decent enough DD again. Little fixes overall would help you, but not overpower or nerf everyone else. Think of a new job ability. Think of new adjustments to thinks. But give the timers a rest. They're as fixed as they can be without breaking things, stop messing with them.

And if that came off as "Malacite's a jerk and I hate him", then sorry. It's just not a good idea, and a quick search of similar threads like this from long ago will show that it wasn't a good idea back the first couple times it was proposed either.

[Malacite]

I'm not taking it as an attack on me, but rather that every single response seems to find faults in everything. I haven't seen anyone else suggest anything good, just shooting down all my ideas. Every time I come up with one thing, it seems to piss someone off so I figure "okay, what would offset that" and then that idea in turn gets shot down... etc

Put Simply: SMN just is not fun. Keeping avatars out is impracticle and there are other jobs that can do the same things SMN does much more efficiently. I don't care WHAT FUCKING ROLE I GET PUT IN, so long as it involves summoning the gods to do my bidding.

That's what's drawn me to the job from day 1 (FF3~11) calling forth all these awesome creatures to do cool stuff. Forgive me if I don't find the prospect of using a couple of abilities here and there and then just tossing out cures terribly exciting. Nor do I want to solo or build all my own parties and EXP at a crawl just to do so.

Waiting 69 levels to do any kind of decent damage with pacts is utter BS too. I absolutely hate the way SE has handled the job in this game (RDM too but I'd rather not get into that)

Icemage or anyone please just close the god damn thread. I'm sorry I even brought it up.

[MrMageo]

Acctually there are no other jobs that can do everything just as effectivley as SMN, except SCH which does it with spells not avatars. SMN is a gold job and is extremley fun if you like the support style thing. If you dont like it then yes SMN is boring, but so will RDM,WHM,SCH,COR,BRD.

[Yellow Mage]

People said that about BST, hell, I said that about BST.
People said that about PUP.
People said that about DRG.
People said that about SAM.
People said that about RNG.
People are saying that about RDM.


Sorry, obligatory fix. :/

[Murphie]

Yeah, but those people don't count, YM.

[Nuriko]

Try main healing a PT with a DNC in it ... you can get much more play out of your avatars then. Better yet if there are skillchains going on, you can start or finish (though I have yet to figure out the timing for finishing) most of them, or MB onto a SC you know is coming...

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

SE isn't afraid to touch RDM, its just not a major priority and I think its pretty obvious why - RDM has it good and other jobs needed fixes first. Same goes for BRD, job has it good, it should be a lower priority fix. I'd question SE's priorities of either job was first in line.

I understand people can get pissy over thier main job being overlooked, but I've reached the point where I have so many jobs to play with that I stopped feeling like my main gets overlooked. In time, my main will get updates like my other jobs have. Its not SE's fault if you have a "one and only" job, that's your fault.

Additionally, DNC and SCH are doing what SE set them out to do and that is alleviate the main healing situation. It doesn't get RDM and SMN 100% out of main heal duty, but the jobs are proficient enough to share the load, hell, SCH can carry the load on its own quite well.

Its just going to take a bit of time for these jobs to penetrate the core of the game, which they most likely will since both have been immensely attractive to players and SE gave a lot of incentive for players to at least level them as subjobs.

Problem is, for the RDM and SMN that didn't mind main healing, the addition of SCH is a major kick to the balls thanks to the last update. You're not needed for healing and if you're not needed for that on ToA mobs, what are you needed for?

Sometimes its complaining for a fix to the situation that screws you more.

[Yellow Mage]

SE isn't afraid to touch RDM, its just not a major priority and I think its pretty obvious why - RDM has it good and other jobs needed fixes first. Same goes for BRD, job has it good, it should be a lower priority fix. I'd question SE's priorities of either job was first in line.

As always when you start talking against Red Mages, you always say something that makes me go "wut?"

All us Red Mages have been pressing for is something that suits the flavor that S-E proposed: Jack-of-all-Trades, master of Enfeebling, NOT master of Refresh-whoring at 41 onward, where newbie Red Mages (who don't take the time to lurk a bunch of forums) don't realize what they are getting in to before it's too late.

I don't care what you or Itazura have to say on that, but if that isn't a bait-and-switch (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bait_and_Switch), then I don't know what is.

Oh, and for Bards? They are fine as is: the only update promised for them is a single-target ability for their songs. That benefits certain other jobs more than the Bard itself (Ranger and Paladin come to mind); all the Bard gets out of it is more friendliness with the aforementioned jobs.

I understand people can get pissy over thier main job being overlooked, but I've reached the point where I have so many jobs to play with that I stopped feeling like my main gets overlooked. In time, my main will get updates like my other jobs have. Its not SE's fault if you have a "one and only" job, that's your fault.

Right, it's my fault that I don't have all the time in the world to try out each and every job. Maybe I am the reason I don't just get out and get me a Maat's Cap right now . . . :rolleyes:

Really, if any job has been pretty much neglected for more than four flippin' years now, then I'll be pushing for an update for them, as well. See, we were already at the back of the line, but all the other jobs keep cutting in front of us for seconds . . . and thirds . . . really, if they have time to keep constantly adjusting main damage-dealing jobs, they could at least do a little something more for Red Mage.

And you know what? I think they are getting ready to. Scholar is the perfect job to inherit the backline support mage of Magics Black and White duty. It's even in their flavor: their AF "weapon" is a spell. I think S-E is just getting themselves more and more poised with little things like Scholar and Sublimation before they can do anything with Red Mage that would get them a crapload of backlash from those who would rather keep us as their Refresh/Haste mongers. But, this is all mere conjecture from my part. All I know is that S-E intends for us to be on the frontline at least some of the time, and I don't think it's going to be too long before we see a few adjustments to make it happen.

Heck, we have been waiting for over four years.

Additionally, DNC and SCH are doing what SE set them out to do and that is alleviate the main healing situation. It doesn't get RDM and SMN 100% out of main heal duty, but the jobs are proficient enough to share the load, hell, SCH can carry the load on its own quite well.

Its just going to take a bit of time for these jobs to penetrate the core of the game, which they most likely will since both have been immensely attractive to players and SE gave a lot of incentive for players to at least level them as subjobs.

Problem is, for the RDM and SMN that didn't mind main healing, the addition of SCH is a major kick to the balls thanks to the last update. You're not needed for healing and if you're not needed for that on ToA mobs, what are you needed for?

Sometimes its complaining for a fix to the situation that screws you more.

That last comment reminds me of something you said earlier on: something about "Red Mage has been kicked in the balls with the Scholar buff, maybe they just Stoneskin up, but they'll feel it later." If you read my conjecture above, you would see that my opinion on the matter is far different from yours. You said yourself Red Mage is a complicated job, and maybe S-E is just working at the knot little by little until they are ready to completely unravel it. But, maybe it's incomprehensible to you to think of a scenario where Red Mages get what they want, the Red Mages get something more in their flavor. If it takes a nerfing first, so be it: we are regarded as too powerful a job, but I'd trade all that power in order to play the job I signed up for.

Now, about the main healing: the only thing that peeves me about Red Mage main healing is the fact that Red Mages are never asked to do much else, pretty much putting their versatility to waste. Does they mean they shouldn't be able to main heal? Of course not. We have the spells, the only thing is is that we shouldn't be able to replace White Mages so easily.

Summoners, on the other hand . . . that job is screwed up in so many ways, I can't even begin to imagine, and I cringe when I see people say that it's the Summoner main healing, instead of the MP/WHM that's actually doing the job. At least Red Mages (as Red Mages) are and should be capable of doing the job by themselves, but Summoners, they aren't even doing it as Summoners! Why do you people list SMN as a candidate AT ALL for main healing when it isn't even in their native capabilities?!? You all are assuming /WHM or /SCH when you do that, but how is one newbie supposed to know when they take up SMN/BLM and try to main heal with Carby? They WERE told, after all, that SUMMONERS can main heal!

Summary: with Red Mages, main healing shouldn't be the best option, as per the jack-of-all-trades theme (technically, even Paladins have a better Healing Magic Skill than us, but that's neither here nor there), but with Summoners, it shouldn't even be an option AT ALL until doing it via Summoning Magic becomes viable; main healing is, thus, a FAR bigger issue with Summoners than with Red Mages.

[Malacite]

Ty YM. TYVM. m(. _ .)m


Oh yeah, while we're on the subject, MNK and BLM haven't gotten jack shit in 4+ years either (except nerfs)

BRD does need something though. Not just that single target JA (Which is sorely needed for when you have a PLD and no RDM @_@ seriously it is not fun) but a few more songs maybe. Something to do other than lolmarch or lolminuet or lolballad... @_@;;;

SE's already said they've noticed the trend of ppl using BRD as little more than a puller who can buff and wanna step in (thank god) so we'll wait and see on that one.

[Murphie]

YM, it's not your fault that you don't have time to try every job, but hey guess what? It's not SE's responsibility to accommodate you either.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Summary: with Red Mages, main healing shouldn't be the best option, as per the jack-of-all-trades theme (technically, even Paladins have a better Healing Magic Skill than us, but that's neither here nor there), but with Summoners, it shouldn't even be an option AT ALL until doing it via Summoning Magic becomes viable; main healing is, thus, a FAR bigger issue with Summoners than with Red Mages.

Main healing isn't the best option for RDM when the mobs are IT++, take it anywhere else but T or VT camps and you'll see that.

Problem is, RDMs are willing to go with the flow, doing the ToA camps to the point they won't see that, ever. They'll never enfeeble or Magic Burst in ToA camps because it isn't neccessary to do so. I used to MB all the time on RDM, now no one SCs, but at least its starting to pick up now a bit more now that they're less resisted.

RDM and SMNs are invited as healers because they allow the community to do so. Additionally, RDM and SMN cried so much about the "issue" that SE made more healer-types to allieviate the need for healers and free up RDM and SMNs to do thier thing.

Problem? Most ToA PTs want one mage and now, they have a mage thats self-sufficient enough not to need Refresh and more proficient at healing than both jobs.

[Vatic]

Ok, please dont bit my head off for this. But I am not sure a BP overhaul would work, if more useful BPs were put in, we still have the limitation of about 2 BPs a min, if you introducte a new BP timer, MP use goes through the roof like formentioned.

At this time I do not see SMN getting reworked, in SE's eyes, I think the job is pritty much as they want it. The problem is how the comunity uses the job.

For example, last week end, I got a party invite for a 56-57 party. There wasnt many people seaking, so I accepted. Later to my horror, I relized I was the only Mage in the party, no RDM, BRD, WHM, BLM. And to cap it all off, no real tank.

It took us about 4 hours to get 14k xp. And lots of deaths insued. When people look at SMN, they think Cure III tank. But what they dont relize it that our Cure III is based off our Subjob. In this party, I would best describe it as I was my Subjob (WHM 28) with 1000 MP trying to keep a lvl 56-57 party alive.

When people are building a party, for healing smn is at about number 4 on this list, after WHM, RDM and SCH. For DD, we are behind most other jobs. I mean woot Shiva and do 800+ with Double slap, but for me thats once a min. I was talking to a lvl 75 BLM yesterday, and he can out damage a lvl 75 SMN , cause we can only do damage once a min, he can do 1k damage every 10 seconds. For support, we can do hastega and stoneskinga, which helps. But BRD, COR and RDM will always get picked before us.

The real DD for a SMN is in SC's. dropping a magic burst on using a 2 hour for crazy damage. In all the time partying there has been only 1 party were I was able to practice this. And that was at lvl 54. But again, like mentioned before, no one is doing SC's anymore. as soon as a person has 100TP, they let it rip for fast kill.

I restarted this game just over a year ago, because I wanted a lvl 75 Taru SMN. Today, even tho that lvl 56 is my highest job, I am thinking of giving up on lvling it. I am fed up with getting 3rd class parties. If I wait for the right invite, then I would never lvl.

[Karinya]

Problem is, for the RDM and SMN that didn't mind main healing, the addition of SCH is a major kick to the balls thanks to the last update. You're not needed for healing and if you're not needed for that on ToA mobs, what are you needed for?

Sometimes its complaining for a fix to the situation that screws you more.
That's why I've been saying for years now that ToA mobs and the resulting underhunting chain #infinity parties are the real problem, and all this tinkering with one job or another is only rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic.

If monsters aren't dangerous, than all the jobs that depend on reducing or fixing the damage monsters can do to the party (dedicated tanks, healers, enfeeblers) will remain redundant crap that you want to get rid of to invite more DDs for faster kills.

There was a time when making your party too DD-heavy would leave your party face down in the dirt. That's when those defensive jobs were wanted. When players can get a competitive amount of exp by fighting monsters that hit back enough to matter, then defensive jobs will be wanted again. Not before.

RDM only masked part of the problem because they could switch from an enfeebling role to a healing/hasting role - and although they bitched about their only A skill becoming useless, they accepted the role shift anyway, because it was the only game in town. But RDMs haven't played like RDMs above level 60 (more than very occasionally) since ToAU came out, and SCH isn't going to change that.

[Malacite]

if you introducte a new BP timer, MP use goes through the roof like formentioned.

This is such a piss poor argument why does everyone bother to say this? No one is forcing you to spam pacts. Just because the option is there doesn't mean you automatically have to. Other mages can blow through their MP just as quickly if not faster, but they don't so why would SMN?

[Eiyoko]

I really have to agree with StarvingArtist here. There's no sense in giving any job class capabilities they'd never use. Besides, it might not be the summoner wanting to spam all that. On top of perpetuation, their party might want them to be spamming stuff.

Also, keep in mind that all enhancements that an avatar will use on your party is AoE. Many people I know seem to miss that and whine about how much MP it costs.

[Silent Howler]

When people are building a party, for healing smn is at about number 4 on this list, after WHM, RDM and SCH.
Puppetmaster is actually a pretty decent healer as well post level 40. Certainly ranked above Summoner. And then there is also Dancer, but it's hard to find where they sit on the spectrum (again, certainly ranked above Summoner though, assuming they can hit the mob).

[Vatic]

Puppetmaster is actually a pretty decent healer as well post level 40. Certainly ranked above Summoner. And then there is also Dancer, but it's hard to find where they sit on the spectrum (again, certainly ranked above Summoner though, assuming they can hit the mob).


I didnt know about pup, not partied much with them, but I would put Dancer along with PLd, more a front line healer.

But it kinda reinforces I think my under lineing point, SMN at this time doesnt doesnt really have anything that a party can do without. to coin a phrase I read on another forum some where "SMN doesnt have anything that a party really needs, you will never hear a party leader go, you know what, we need is a SMN"

I doint think its a matter of the Blood Packs being the problem, I am finding that the SMN is very situational based, in a XP party, many other jobs will be picked before a SMN will, but, with that said, on things like CoP, having a SMN in the party is very helpful.

Now, this last thing I am going to say, I am guessing I am going to get a lot of stick for, and also, I am guessing that I am just bringing up old trains of thought. But if you think about it, putting the Avatars to one side, and just looking at the Spirts, between them, we do have almost a complete BLM spell list, baring -ra spells. I would suggest that rather than overhaul the bloodpacks, allow the SMN to select the spell the element can cast, but there should be 2 restrictions to this.

1) You can not cast the same spell twice in a row.
2) The Cast timer for spirits doesnt change.

What I would like this is mean is, you summon Thunder Spirit, Set it to attack. Then you go in to the pet ablilties and select the spell you want it to cast. Then once the spirit timer is up, it casts the selected spell.

If you dont set a spell, then the spirit behaves excatly how it does at the moment.

If this was the case, I would consider the idea of having a Light Spirit out while main healing, just for the extra spells, I can only do Cure III, but the light Spirit at my lvl, could do cure V.

Ok, thats my bit said for now, preparing foe lost of people to rip me appart now. lol.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

That's why I've been saying for years now that ToA mobs and the resulting underhunting chain #infinity parties are the real problem, and all this tinkering with one job or another is only rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic.

If monsters aren't dangerous, than all the jobs that depend on reducing or fixing the damage monsters can do to the party (dedicated tanks, healers, enfeeblers) will remain redundant crap that you want to get rid of to invite more DDs for faster kills.

There was a time when making your party too DD-heavy would leave your party face down in the dirt. That's when those defensive jobs were wanted. When players can get a competitive amount of exp by fighting monsters that hit back enough to matter, then defensive jobs will be wanted again. Not before.

RDM only masked part of the problem because they could switch from an enfeebling role to a healing/hasting role - and although they bitched about their only A skill becoming useless, they accepted the role shift anyway, because it was the only game in town. But RDMs haven't played like RDMs above level 60 (more than very occasionally) since ToAU came out, and SCH isn't going to change that.

Underhunting has always been the trend for burn PTs, even without the EXP bonus from Sanction, it was always better EXP per hour than ramming your head against IT++ constantly with a SC/MB system. I thought by cripping arrowburn back when RNGs were dominant, the problem was solved, but WARs and MNKs just stepped up and took thier place. And this was well before ToA, ToA just made it mainstream. KRT MNK PTs were no different.

But its far too late to go back on fixing most of of this now, its largely why the initial ranged adjustment was so vhemently hated by most players - SE had let it stand for so long that taking it away only made the initial mistake they made it look worse, then they made it look really bad by overnerfing ranged attacks.

SE's adjustments to RNG since have more than made up for the error, but those were two of the largests errors they made with the game. I think they really learned from that.

I think they realize that if they break the burn trend by changing mobs and such now, it won't be very well recieved, so instead, they're advocating people take a smaller approach to PTing, what's more is that the Signet and Sigil buffs actually encourage you to not go 6/6 in each PT, but with less.

The WotG stronghold camps actually offer mages a chance to play thier roles to the fullest, I think. Nothing in those zones are terribly weak and you can just walk in to a place like Castle O and work the place from bottom floor to top and make about 15k on your way up. The VT mobs there are pretty tough too, they WILL link. SC/MB will bring them down faster than going without. The mobs won't croak as easily as colibri, either.

The opportunities are out there, its just a matter of whether you've chosen to take the easy way out (ToA) or not.

[Malacite]

Yet again you take it to the extremes...

Spamming pacts = a lot of enmity on the avatar and you basically blow through your MP. Now, by spamming I mean hitting those DD pacts back-to-back alongside the healing and whatever else you may wish to do.

It's really hard to say whether or not there ought to be penalties for the SMN itself for relentlessly using pacts (apart from the insane MP expenditure) because on the one hand, it's one of SMN's biggest advantages (no enmity for the SMN) but at the same time, it has potential to become very broken.


As for what to do between pacts, yah obviously SJ abilities or simply waiting while your avatar beats on the mob comes to mind. Like I said, I'm not saying we should axe /WHM's usefulness (why blow the MP on spring water just to remove poison from 1 PT member for example) just reduce the dependency on it.