RDM and the WoTG My opinion changed

[MrMageo]

Well I just got out of my first post update party and all i can say is wow.

Wow
wow
wow
wow.

Party setup RDM/NIN,SAM/WAR,SAM/WAR,WAR/NIN,BRD/NIN,SMN/SCH
Target: Mamool Ja
Location: Nyzul Isle
Duration: 1:45
EXP Earned: 27.4K

wow
wow
wow
wow

again.

Ok everyone knows my stance on TP BURN parties, well this setup has changed it. The party had a real old school feel to it, and by old school i mean non-advil poping fun.
So much great stuff took place in this party i dont know where to begin. So here goes.

SKILLCHAINS !!!!!!!!!!! Yes that is right Skill Chains 4 to be exact. The Sams would pull off double Distortion SC's every 5 minutes as well as SC with each other for another. Myself and the WAR wou rock a Light SC, and guess what I got to MB the shit out of it.

Skillchains planned in a TP BURN i didnt thing it was posible.

The backline rolled so damn good.

The SMN/SCH was rarely in need of Refresh as they had sublimation and Mega Aspir, as well as Ballad x2. I didnt need to cast Haste as the SCH had ample MP to Cast Hastega, and even MB'd a few times.

This Update has made RDM such a great part of a meripo now. We can finally focus on our old school duties enfeeb/support/back up healing/MB and of course melee. With the several minutes between refresh casting (when it was needed) there was so much time to do all the traditional stuff.

I seriously doubted this update until I did something with it. SE acctually came through with something they said about RDM, its a miricale but its happened.

[BurningPanther]

Did you notice any difference in En-spell resists?

[MrMageo]

my enblizzard (i think thats the mamool weakness) I hit for 32 pretty regularily. (my base 19 + enhancing sword + fencer ring+ that earring hollow or something) had some ocasional resists but no where near the amount as before. Id say about 95% was a full hit. As for MB's and SC resists, its been a while since I MB'd but my Blizzard III was hiting for 650 without a staff pretty consistently, and Thunder hit for 700 as well. Most ive gotten out of it I imagine 750-800 MB's with the staff.

[IfritnoItazura]

Well I just got out of my first post update party and all i can say is wow.

Wow
wow
wow
wow.

Party setup RDM/NIN,SAM/WAR,SAM/WAR,WAR/NIN,BRD/NIN,SMN/SCH
Target: Mamool Ja
Location: Nyzul Isle
Duration: 1:45
EXP Earned: 27.4K

wow
wow
wow
wow

again.
27.4k exp / 1.75hr = 15,657 exp/hour

It's OK, but doesn't quite deserve eight 'wow' and an 'again'.

The SMN/SCH was rarely in need of Refresh as they had sublimation and Mega Aspir, as well as Ballad x2. I didnt need to cast Haste as the SCH had ample MP to Cast Hastega, and even MB'd a few times.
If you had given the SMN Refresh and offloaded the Hastes for the frontline, he may have had the MP to add to damage output with Lv.70 BPs every two or three fights. Probably would've done more damage that way than your melee'ing. (*ducking angry melee RDM's swings*)

Hastega is 150 MP for 90 seconds, or 100 MP/min.
Haste is 40 MP for 180 seconds, or 13.33 MP/min.

Haste x4, then, is 53.33 MP/min. That's nearly twice as efficient as Hastega. If the SMN can possibly find better use for his MP than Hastega, he should--and have the RDM (and/or WHM, if there's one) in the party Haste the frontline instead.


This Update has made RDM such a great part of a meripo now.
No one sent a memo stating that RDM wasn't a good part of meripo scene before... Darn.

We can finally focus on our old school duties enfeeb/support/back up healing/MB and of course melee.
RDM didn't melee in meripo in the "old times" much, BTW.

And, for Mamool Ja, Enfeeb (Silence, Dia, Dispel) has always been the standard for RDM.

With the several minutes between refresh casting (when it was needed) there was so much time to do all the traditional stuff.
You misunderstand the purpose of Refresh; it's to give other magic users more MP to do stuff, so we don't have to spend the MP ourselves--40 MP from us for them to do 150 MP worth of work.

Not giving full-time Refresh to a job which can always use more MP (like SMN) is not just lazy, it's self-defeating.

* * *

Between the Hastega and the wrong-headed attitude toward Refresh, it's obvious that party of yours suffered from inefficient use of MP. You may have done much better exp/hour wise if you've been more careful on how you spent your MP.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Actually, I'd say WotG and this update didn't make RDM (or BRD and COR, for that matter) more essential to PTs, but more of an option to PTs.

Which is really the way it should be. And more diverse PT setups mean move variety for all to experience.

But its clear some people want to hold on to thier diva mentalities while they still can.

[MrMageo]

Hmm I see i get picked apart no matter what it is, wether its a hypothesis or facts from a test. Seems theres no way around the pig heads in this place. I had a good time partying and had my opinion changed.

People like you are the reason i dont like TP burns, if you did this and this differently you coulda had X amount more XP. Who cares we all had a good time and were happy with 15k /hr. Why didnt i cast refresh, or haste, because the SMN said he wanted to try and main it. So i let him, people like to test things. So now im sure there is a site up with a SMN saying he just main healed a meripo to 15K/hr /SCH, which he did.

Also I dont know if you are familiar with the Mamool camp in Nyzul Isle, but there are only about 10 Mobs to pull from, you expire them pretty quickly as well. Highest chains we got were 13 and that included the pets.

If they were really worried about grinding a potential 2K extra from the camp they would have repped me with anoth melee. As it stood we all had a good time and i got 3 new merits.

But i guess fun isnt acceptable in this game anymore. After all Time is money >.>
______________________________
Also for the record i did not mention I was an integral part or needed in every meripo. I stated RDM is great in a meripo because now we have time to do other things then main heal you know kinda like the job is described "Using the power of black and white magic and a sword".

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

You don't really do tests. Merit PTs aren't really how its done.

Additionally, MBs on Colibri? how many people ate the return fire there?

Not that I don't believe you about the SCs, I've seen those myself, but its your wild claims about your performance that I find suspect.

[MrMageo]

MB's on colibri are you on crack, I was fighting mamool

TARGET MAMOOL JA

ARE YOU FAMILIAR WITH THE MAMOOL CAMP IN NYZUL ISLE?


ALSO IF I'M GOING TO XPING ON RDM IT WILL BE IN A MERIT PARTY
SO YES IT IS HOW ITS DONE
YES MERIT PARTY TESTS ARE FOR MERIT PARTIES
I NEVER SAID I TESTED MELEE IN A NON MERIT PARTY
MY TEST WAS IN A MERIT PARTY THERE FOR IS HOW IT IS DONE

RDM/DNC IN A COLIBRI MERIPO

NOT IN A 1-75 XP

[IfritnoItazura]

People like you are the reason i dont like TP burns, if you did this and this differently you coulda had X amount more XP. Who cares we all had a good time and were happy with 15k /hr.
You have the wrong idea about me; I take invites from SMN, WHM, BLM--definitely not the type who insists on 22k/hour or else I fake d/c. :rofl:

However, it seems like such gushing enthusiasm for an update which didn't seem to actually do much for exp/hour in the configuration you specified was ... unwarranted. The premise was "This is so much better," but the actual story didn't bear that out upon a closer examination.

(BTW, You're the one who listed the exp and duration--I was just curious so tossed them to my spreadsheet.)

The rest of the stuff? Just a reality check; skimping on Refresh and Haste to "free up" time to melee has cost associated to it--worth pointing that out, I think.

There's nothing wrong with a relaxing party, nor a swiss watch precision limit point grinding machine. Both are enjoyable, as long as you know which one you're in and have the right expectations for it.

What I enjoy the most about RDM in merit parties, is that I often find new little tricks to work efficiently or do a little more for my fellow party members. I can do that in SC+MB party, in WS Spam party, and even in odd-ball parties where a RDM/WHM ends up a puller.

Also I dont know if you are familiar with the Mamool camp in Nyzul Isle, but there are only about 10 Mobs to pull from, you expire them pretty quickly as well. Highest chains we got were 13 and that included the pets.
I haven't played puller there, so no clue.

You can ask Icemage what kind of exp chain and exp/hour he gets off the Mamool Ja, though, since it's his favorite merit target, IIRC.

* * *

You get picked apart because your stories don't hold up.

(And, yes, BBQ didn't read your entire post carefully--I'm an equal opportunity picker!)

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

(And, yes, BBQ didn't read your entire post carefully)

My blatant ignorance toward the topic is vastly outweighed by the topic's own stupidity. Can't you see I'm trying to steer this off-topic as quickly as I can?

[MrMageo]

my exagerted enthusiam is for my own enjoyment, it wasnt a wow wow wow we got 15K xp/hr, it was a wow wow wow i had fun in a ToA TP style party. Generally i find them boring which is why i dont like them. But the fact I didnt have to main heal, and the fact i wasnt required to cast refresh or haste every ingame hour was nice. I could have easily kept a haste/refresh cycle from the front line i do it often. The SMN had more then enough MP to do lvl 70 BP's he did a few times but that was his choice. I dont like it when people tell me how to play a job so i dont do it to them.

As it was i was asked not to haste/refresh for the party because the SMN wanted to see how well he could handle main healing with ballad alone. He did a bang up job IMO and as it stood my HP was the only one in the yellow (latent on ring).

It was a special case scenario and I had fun with it. Knowing a SMN can survive without refresh is nice to know if im feeling lazy and dont wish to doll it out the party will still survive.

If there was no BRD i would have come /WHM to help him out but as it stood I had fun they had fun and we all got some XP.

[IfritnoItazura]

If there was no BRD i would have come /WHM to help him out but as it stood I had fun they had fun and we all got some XP.
I forgot; did you ever finish leveling /WHM as support job? Or, at least high enough have Erase? Erase and -na are useful for Mamool Ja spell casters, after all.

[MrMageo]

ya its lvl 35 now, stopped it again cuz all i really get are teles and shellra 2 been busy with other jobs nin to 34, drk to 30, blu to 30 (spellhunt again so holding)
SMN to 37, PLD to 27, war the same. Im glad i have no life and am on holidays right now get this crap outta they finally, between my endgame stuff and work havent had anytime to do it. Erase is pretty nice to have but i still dont like /WHM im biased against it, not for any particular reason, it just dosent feel right.

[Icemage]

You can ask Icemage what kind of exp chain and exp/hour he gets off the Mamool Ja, though, since it's his favorite merit target, IIRC.
I can't remember the last time I made less than 20K per hour at the Nyzul Isle Mamool Ja, let alone the Mamool Ja Staging Point.

15.7K per hour is pretty subpar at that camp.

Incidentally, one Refresh = about 1 offensive Bloodpact, which is way more damage than you'll ever see from flailing away with an Enhancing Sword during the ~3 seconds it takes for you to cast it on the SMN.

I feel bad for your overworked BRD/NIN if you're not backing him up with some Sleep IIs. Nyzul Isle's MJ have a nasty tendency to link in packs if you're going for high chains.

In any case, the sad part of this narrative is that it's basically one person who's so desperate to be non-confirmist and not be a cure-tank that they've forced another job who has a much better reason to not do so (SMN) into the role instead.


Icemage

[Balfree]

All that matters is that the guy had fun, who cares about exp/hour?

[Mhurron]

All that matters is that the guy had fun, who cares about exp/hour?
Normally yes, however because of the crap the OP is spouting all over the board everything he says is going to be ripped apart lest less experienced players think what he says are good ideas.

That and he's just irritating.

[Sabaron]

I think you probably made the SMN/SCH pick up a lot of your duties. By not tossing them refresh in favor of Sublimation, you caused the SMN to have to periodically heal themself which costs them MP, and they only get 2/tick refresh instead of 3. They were refreshing slower than normal and losing HP in exchange when they could have had Refresh. That's not good. Why can't you toss them a Refresh? There are only two mages in the PT...

How many Hastes did you throw? Throwing 3 Hastes increases the DD's damage significantly. Oh wait... SMN can do that. What do I need you for again?

I wish that SE had never said anything about making RDMs more front-line effective. Now, every time there's an update, you'll assume that the update is not for the jobs that get the abilities, but rather an indirect way to boost RDM:

You: "Yay! Presents for me!" *swipe*

SCH: "Waah!"

Mom: "Bad Mr. Mageo! That's SCH's Toy!"

Sublimation does not appear to be intended to be RDM's Lazy pole... It's a mage's alternative when RDM is not around. Sublimation reduces a groups reliance on RDM allowing the group to function without one.

Here's an experiment for you...

Edit yourself out of that party, replace with a real DD (or a BRD/WHM) and see how they do. I bet that SMN can heal the PT all by him/herself.

[Ziero]

Here's an experiment for you...

Edit yourself out of that party, replace with a real DD (or a BRD/WHM) and see how they do. I bet that SMN can heal the PT all by him/herself.

Actually, according to his story, that's what this was as the Smn 'asked' to be the only healer and not have the Rdm refresh/haste others.

And in the end it proves that Rdm melee can be fun, but it's not the best...which I don't think was ever up for debate.

So what exactly this story proves, I can't really say, but at least he seemed to enjoy it

[Sabaron]

Fun or not, his post is recommending that RDMs not refresh people that sub /SCH (e.g. all WHMs and SMNs who have it) because they have sublimation.

[Vyuru]

If you listen to anyone on this board you really ought to listen to IceMage for Rdm pearls of wisdom. While there are alot of good Rdm on this board with alot of knowledge I'd probably have to say that IceMage is the Armando of Rdm.

[Icemage]

The moral of the story is that, while /SCH is indeed an amazing subjob, Refresh is still a superior option for anyone but a SCH main using a Scholar's Mortarboard. It is not an excuse to suddenly not cast Refresh on a mage, unless your MP allowance is so tight that you literally have to cut corners.

Personally, I'm looking forward to finishing my Scholar subjob and trying out RDM/SCH in merits (just hit level 32 SCH last night). With Light Arts, Light Arts Addendum, Regen II, Drain, Aspir, and Sublimation, it's looking to be very much a viable alternative to RDM/WHM. It does sacrifice the safety of Curaga I/II, Divine Seal, Reraise, Auto-Regen, and Erase, however.


Icemage

[TheGrandMom]

I believe the OP knew when he posted the thread that he'd get people who would be contrary to his opinions. When you do something like that, you should be prepared to receive criticism and not freak out. If he enjoyed his party setup and exp/hr then more power to him. As long as his other pt members were happy, then he can set it up again and reap the benefits. Both sides have valid points and there is no "winner" of this thread, just a bunch of people saying "my way is better". To each their own.

My personal opinion, I'd like more to do as rdm in a merit pt also but I'm realistic and know that the majority of people won't go for that. My time is limited and when I do have the time to log in for more than ls events, I want to play the game and enjoy myself. Sometimes I'm in the mood for some merits on rdm but most of the time I am not. I have very few merits in all my lvl 75 jobs because I spend most of my free time in game making gil or exping another job (because exping is more fun then meriting rdm). I know some people will now lump me in the "melee rdm" catagory but you couldn't be more wrong. My sword skill is probably 1/2 of what it should be so there won't be any poking stuff for me. LOL I play to have fun and only some of the time is the repetative meriting on my rdm actually fun.

[MrMageo]

He did all himself and asked me not to refresh or haste.
The BRD and I took turns pulling and I slept links im not a retard.

Yes they could have repped me but didn't. If we wanted lots of XP we would have dumped the SMN added a DD and moved to birds.

Its not the fact I was meleeing, i could care less about that, it was just an added bonus. It was the fact that Mages who /SCH are not entirely dependant on Refresh now. It is betterthan sublimation no arguement here but for that few minutes while its on Thats 40+ MP for me to use elsewhere.

[eticket109]

Didn't we just have this thread?

On a related note, playing since '04 it still makes me giggle sometimes when someone refers to 15k/hour exp as 'sub-par'. I remember two ls mates back in early '05 bitching at each other about whether 6k/hour was feasible or not. How times have changed. Damn kids have it so easy nowadays. When I exped we had to get to and from camp by marching uphill in the snow both ways. Get off my lawn.

[Icemage]

Didn't we just have this thread?

On a related note, playing since '04 it still makes me giggle sometimes when someone refers to 15k/hour exp as 'sub-par'. I remember two ls mates back in early '05 bitching at each other about whether 6k/hour was feasible or not. How times have changed. Damn kids have it so easy nowadays. When I exped we had to get to and from camp by marching uphill in the snow both ways. Get off my lawn.
It is sub-par, when there are any number of better options. :P The whole notion of "par" in golf is what would be considered slightly above average. 15.7K these days doesn't even tip the scales at average for me, though I agree I'd have been thrilled with such XP earnings back before ToAU was released.

By the by, I'll have my fifth FFXI anniversary on June 21, 2008.


Icemage

[eticket109]

Oh I agree based against other current options it could be looked at that way. I just think it's funny when we wouldn't have even dreamed such rates back in ye olden days.

[MrMageo]

I agree 15.7/hr is sub par as well by todays standards, I hit 20K+ without breaking a sweat in colibri TP Burns. But we were running three DD's and a 3rd wheel RDM melee so we weren pumping as much as if we had 4 DD's 1 backline healer and a BRD. Hell I get 6-8K/hr in Campaign. We were going along at our own pace the party worked we all got XP i was happy the DD's were happy, the BRD was happy and the SMN was ecstatic. We all got 2-3 Merits so in the end we all won, no harm no foul. Except on FFXIONLINE forums apparently.

[TheGrandMom]

Except on FFXIONLINE forums apparently.

Well, you could try posting the same post on BG, KI, Alla, etc and see what response you would get.

[Pai Pai Master]

Heh. 15.7k/hr is five billion times better than what I'm used to.

[Celeal]

There is nothing wrong to with having fun trying new stuff from the updates.... but the *wow wow wow* in the OP is very misleading.

After reading the post, my impression of merit parties change from *invite the RDM as the high priority* to *RDM is now exchangeable*

To be fair, Sublimation is available for mage/SCH at level 70+. Now wait and see how other mage/SCH and tank do from level 41 to 69 without a RDM in party.

[MrMageo]

Im currious to see as well.

As for the wow wow wow, why does it automatically default to XP.

wow wow wow i got and e sword
wow wow wow i just had a fun party
wow wow wow i got 27K/hr

see all differnt things all use wow wow wow. Instead of basing a post off of the first 4 words i type try reading the whole post (not too you Cel, to the other 6 epeens who assume i only talk about leet xp/hr)

[WishMaster3K]

[Moderator's Edit: Flaming isn't allowed. - Icemage]

Honestly, if I made a post with the same party setup, people would ask me my input, my observations and where I think I could have done better. In fact, I made a "RDM-Melee" thread, and there was all sorts of positive input because how I approached the situation. In the end though, I deemed that it wasn't feasible, so I let the idea drift into obscurity.

You, think you can do no wrong, for some reason..

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and take you on your word.

But don't you think that the SMN could have done SO much better if you had refreshed him?

Good lord, we need Lufaise Meadows parties again.

[MrMageo]

I was asked not to refresh him or cast haste, by him

Regardless if you gave up on melee or not dosent change the fact that I have made it work. I have provided substatial Evidence i can melee well enough to be a RDM/DNC but i get flack for that. Why should I bother providing substatial evidence to prove I can melee effectivley otherwise. So you rdm melee haters can crawl out from whatever rock you collecivley hide under.

"pssst. theres a rdm out there that says he can melee decently, we better go derail his thread so no one will buy into it"

I dont care what you think about RDM melee It works for me, dosent disrupt the party, and I enjoy it. I dont care if you sit on the backline, it works for you, dosent disrupt the party and you enjoy it. I dont go into RDM backline forums and say lolrdm backline. Backline works and melee works (if you put time and effort into it) I didnt give up on it even though it was deemed fruitless. 40-75 you dont have access to alot of the better gear, you cant merit your sword for increased accuracy. I never melee'd until i was in my early 70's when i got my joy toy. Even then it was scarce and was only for being a 3rd wheel SC partner.

I dont know how many times i need to say its situational. But i know when and when not to use my sword. I know when and when i dont need my elemental staves.

Im tired of defending myself and my play style to people that have no intrest other then to deter myself and others from trying it.

If someone were to ask "Oh what gear do you use, whats your skill level, hows the damage and ACC" I would give them details. But when people come and ask "LOL I BET GIVE ME A PARSE OR I DONT BELIEVE YOU" I wont give shit. Im not doing it to please anyone but myself. If someone genuinely interested asks for my advice on it I will happily give them some. If someone comes in to just berate me because i do things differently i will happily tell them to go fuck themselves.

Its a 2 way street courtesy goes a long way. If you ask nicely I will be nice. If you act like a dick, so will I.

[Omniblast]

15k or 27k per hour is good, phenomenal even. I usually get 10k or less for me.

Thanks for sharing how much MP a SMN/SCH can output. I can look forward to that when I finally get my SCH to 35/37.

I don't know why the SMN didn't ask for Refresh. The only reason why I think that happened was because he wanted to see if he could make it work without a RDM hasting. I mean a Bard adds an additional 3 mp/tick, adding all the other mp/tick together he could have about 10 mp/tick, with a red mage, it would be 13 mp/tick, enough to keep out any avatar basically, and spirits if he merited spirit -perpetuation.

[eticket109]

The huge bolded font doesn't help you emphasize your points. If anything it just results in people ignoring what you have to say.

[MrMageo]

I think he was doing it to see is Main Heal potential. He was using avatars how SMN's do (summon, BP or ward, dispell) I think he did a good job, I only needed to step in and main for a bit when he got over zelous and MB'd 4 SC's in a row. But having a good main heal, and another decent main heal (I wasnt /whm) is a pretty good safety net. Id happily do it agin with refresh/haste cycles or without. I really want to see a WHM in action now though. Provided its the same circumstance and they decline refresh/haste so its a similar scenario as the SMN.

Either way i think its going to be nice to have some company on The backline again. TP Burn with planned SC's and no downtime was really nice and i hope to see more of it.
______________________________
The huge bolded font doesn't help you emphasize your points. If anything it just results in people ignoring what you have to say.

It got your attention didnt it

[Celeal]

But remember, this update is still new, there will be room for adjustment and improvement.

As for a party that testing the new changes, actually the OP's party setup is very smart (RDM, SAM/WAR x2, WAR/NIN, BRD, SMN/SCH):

If for any reason SMN/SCH did not work out, the RDM can still cover it. Include SAM in party to see the SAM's new JA and Skillchain changes, include WAR to see the new Retaliate JA in action.

One *test drive* party to see these new updates, in a very safe and reasonable way.

[eticket109]

It got your attention didnt it

Yep. I saw it and scrolled right past it and the rest of your post.

[Selphiie The Enchantress]

I think the SMN/SCH didn't want refresh because he wanted to try that new neato self refresh thing (yeah yeah i know i havent been keeping up with the SCH update).

But you have to agree it would have helped his performance a bit more if he had that extra MP boost with the RDM refresh you know :)

[IfritnoItazura]

I was asked not to refresh him or cast haste, by him
The request for Hastega should have send up a warning flag immediately. You should have made a counter-offer: "After trying it your way for a while, can we switch back to RDM Haste and full-time Refresh for you to see if that works better?"

* * *

TGM has an interesting idea; copy your OP, and post it on Order of the Blue Gartr (http://www.bluegartrls.com/forum/). :biggrin:

[MrMageo]

Ya but his wish is my command, being asked to not cast refresh or haste was a first for me, and hard to break the habbit. But if we didnt have a BRD i would have told him otherwise.

BG is weak, nice for informaion bad for sharing stories. (which this is) Id much rather post it here maybe alla but they all drama queens over there.

[Icemage]

BG is weak, nice for informaion bad for sharing stories. (which this is) Id much rather post it here maybe alla but they all drama queens over there.
Translation:

"I know if I post it on any other forum I'd get roasted like a marshmallow over a campfire, so I figured I'd post it here, since the rules explicitly don't allow people to directly insult me."

---

There's nothing wrong with experimentation, but part and parcel with that is the necessity to look at the data objectively.

By the by, were you even Dispelling? I'd wager quite a lot of the slow kill speed on this particular case was due to Warm Up not getting properly dispelled.


Icemage

[MrMageo]

>.> of course i was dispelling, It wasnt slow kill speed it was lack of mobs. There were 3 blues and a mage killing them in the pass (to mamook) as well. I can only assume they were trying to learn warm up. After 45 minutes they left the last hour was alot better as we had more to kill. Id say the XP was about 30/70 overall.

[Icemage]

>.> of course i was dispelling
You'll forgive my skepticism, but in your ever-more desperate attempts to convince this board that your melee build is anything more than a curiosity, you've taken a lot of liberties with the numbers, and it's doing your credibility a disservice.

It wasnt slow kill speed it was lack of mobs. There were 3 blues and a mage killing them in the pass (to mamook) as well. I can only assume they were trying to learn warm up. After 45 minutes they left the last hour was alot better as we had more to kill. Id say the XP was about 30/70 overall.
See above.

As for why anyone would pick the Nyzul staging point spot to learn Warm Up - that seems pretty absurd to me, but people do stupid things all the time. Not only is Nyzul full of pet-enabled enemies, but it's pretty annoying to pull them. They'd have been better served fighting inside Mamook itself, where it's easier to isolate enemies.


Icemage

[MrMageo]

Ya i agree but what can you do to each there own.

[WishMaster3K]

Hey guys, check it out. Contrary to popular belief, MrMag is not a complete tool

Notes/Description

* Stored MP is gained when the ability is reactivated. (You can also reactivate the ability to gain the stored MP before it's fully charged)
* Your character’s HP will slowly decrease (-2HP / Tick) while storing MP and you will be unable to enter healing mode or log out while this ability is in effect. (Stoneskin will absorb damage, allowing resting or logging out.)
* The MP limit is 25% of your max HP (before applying "Converts HP -> MP gear").
* This effect persists when changing zones.
* This effect wears when entering a Mog House or Rent-a-Room, unless the ability has completed charging.
* This effect doesn't cause invisible to wear.
* Enhanced by Scholar's Mortarboard from 25% of your max HP to 33%.
* Refresh effects from food or the Red Mage spell will not take effect while the Sublimation effect is active, either charging or fully charged.

[Icemage]

Hey guys, check it out. Contrary to popular belief, MrMag is not a complete tool
We know this.

A Red Mage can keep Refresh on a target player on full-time at 3MP/tick with no HP slip damage and without taking away the inability to rest.

Additionally, Sublimation (now thatI have Scholar at 35 and can test it personally) returns only 2MP/tick at best, and moreover every time you activate it to "use up your charge" there is a 30 second recharge when you can't do anything with the ability (other than do the resting that you couldn't do while it was charging). Even for SCH mains using the AF mortarboard, it's still inferior to Refresh for the most part.

Sublimation is a cool ability, but it's nowhere near a replacement for Refresh - just a situational alternative.


Icemage

[IfritnoItazura]

IMO, Sublimation isn't even a good situational alternative. Depending on the fight, much rather give up a few inventory slots for emergency use items:

Hi-Ether: Cheap, but requires a bit of anticipation since it locks out spell casting for some time.
Mulsum: Expensive, but much better in a pinch than Hi-Ether.
Yagudo Drink: If it comes down to casting the last 40 MP on WHM or oneself, this lets one pick WHM--gulp this afterwards, then rest.

None of those prevents resting, and every one of them faster. While /SCH is underrated for RDM, Sublimation is not a selling point.

* * *

RDM/SCH seems best suited to very organized alliances with multiple RDMs. If Dispel and Black Magic enfeebling can be shifted away from one RDM, he can be dedicated to Refresh, Cure, and White Magic enfeebles. In that case, Light Arts becomes very attractive.

This is the party I ended up in last night while fighting Jailer of Temperance:
PLD/NIN
PLD/NIN
WHM/BLM
BRD/WHM (2-boxed by one of the PLD--obviously could not do too much)
SMN/WHM
RDM/WHM (me)

That's a up-to-five-person Refresh cycle, with fair amount of back up cures. Light Arts would have helped a lot, though that means I'd have to abandon Gravity and Poison II duties--but we did have another RDM, and I think we normally can bring two, along with a coterie of BLMs.

While the MP saving is nice, knocking off another 10% from cast time isn't to be scoffed at either--not even by "Fast Cast" RDM. Every time a PLD (whose Refresh dropped) swing by while I'm busy, is a chance I may or may not have to put Refresh back on, depending on how fast I can get the previous spell and Refresh off.

A fraction of a second here and there could be the difference between landing that Refresh and getting the dreaded out of range error message. Not having to save recast for the next swing around means I can Refresh the SMN more often, too. Between better coverage for PLD and SMN, that's a recipe for a faster and safer fight.

[WishMaster3K]

I've heard that RDM/SCHs love the additional Fast Cast.

And with the SCH AF, Sublimation is near-equal to Refresh, with the exception that, of course, there is a lengthy cool-down.

The only benefit I see is that it can be utilized while silenced.

[Icemage]

And with the SCH AF, Sublimation is near-equal to Refresh, with the exception that, of course, there is a lengthy cool-down.
And the HP drain... and the fact that you can't rest while it's active at all... and if you take lots of damage it turns itself off... other than that... maybe. :)

Sublimation is cool, but it's nowhere near as useful as Refresh even for main job Scholars.

The only benefit I see is that it can be utilized while silenced.
That's what echo drops are for.

The main benefits to RDM/SCH are Regen II, Aspir, Drain, the MP efficiency from Arts/Penury/Parsimony, and a minor boost to Elemental/Dark Magic skill. Sublimation is a neat trick but only marginally useful, and the fast cast is pretty lollerskates for a job with natural fast cast.


Icemage

[WishMaster3K]

You should write a book, Icemage.

I'd totally buy it, then pirate it as a PDF and sell it for $5.