Retaliate + WAR/NIN, put PLD + NIN out of merit parties?

[Celeal]

I know the thread's title is exaggerated, I am just trying to get an interesting discussion.

I have read some post that Retaliate proc rate is 30% (2nd hand source, not confirmed). From my experience, NIN's shadows has higher priority over shield and counter-attack. Level 74+ WAR/NIN, with 3 shadows from Ni, 3 shadows from Ichi, counter-attack from Retaliate when shadows are stripped... that is very good for avoiding hits.

From my exp party-tanking experience (75 PLD, 70 NIN), trying to hold hate against DD WAR/NIN (who try to avoid hate) is not easy. If the WAR/NIN is trying to tank with Retaliate, or if the DD WAR/NIN is going to push his hate threshold more because of Retaliate....

Any opinion ^^?

[Callisto]

I was honestly wanting to see WAR/SAM using it more than /NIN, especially in a tanking attempt, as a single 3E anticipate can eat a full on pecking flurry, and with Counter procs between shadows as well as Zanshin procs here in there, not to mention being able to gear for a 6-hit GA build, I think there's some monstrous potential there.

I'm hoping some of our LS WARs will want to give it a shot soon, I'm trying to push people to go into For Great Science! mode for a week or so and test the crap out of new stuff, I'm normally the only one into this stuff but hopefully I can get some help, lol.

[Tomato_Kai]

While your last sentance was slightly boggling, I think I get your point.

I can see WAR/NIN's out aggroing PLD/NIN's on principal alone, let alone the fact that they now have retaliate to up the ante. I don't think it's fair to say WAR/NIN should outright "replace" PLD/NIN (no healing abilities, lower defense, etc) but I definitely think they can and should make effective and dynamic substitutes. But, it also seems like they are a substitute you'd have to plan in advance for, or even would use in specific circumstances. Either way though, I see more tanking flexibility from PLD/NIN, which ultimately can make them superior when played appropriately.

I can't think of anything else to say.

Boop.

[Selphiie The Enchantress]

Less WARs are going to /sam now. SE made the sneak Ninjutsu sub level. It gave more retards a reason to sub /nin and never have any other subjob for Warrior.

Lol at 75WARs with no GA skill...

[nanatsu]

I'm really interested in how Retaliate pans out too since WAR is my first love. 30% seems pretty huge although I'm kinda wondering why they didn't try to improve MNKs counter or guard rate instead. I'm not going to complain however. The more they add to war the more I'll feel like giving it a try. And any excuse for WARs to tank again is a good thing to me.

[Ziero]

I know the thread's title is exaggerated, I am just trying to get an interesting discussion.

I have read some post that Retaliate proc rate is 30% (2nd hand source, not confirmed). From my experience, NIN's shadows has higher priority over shield and counter-attack. Level 74+ WAR/NIN, with 3 shadows from Ni, 3 shadows from Ichi, counter-attack from Retaliate when shadows are stripped... that is very good for avoiding hits.

Any opinion ^^?

Retaliate doesn't negate damage.

Fission mailed =(

[Tomato_Kai]

Retaliate doesn't negate damage.

Fission mailed =(

That makes me sad. And also happy. Giving wars a JA version Counter seems kinda annoying. At least with retaliation they're still standing with the warrior mythos of dealing heavy damage, but not shirking away from the incoming blows.

[Celeal]

Retaliate doesn't negate damage.

Fission mailed =(

Really, /cry .... omg

/em going to try it on my retired WAR to see what the heck is Retaliate.... Orz

But how about spell interruption?

In a normal counterattack from MNK, a MNK/NIN can successfully cast shadows when Counterattack fires off. Does this apply to Retaliate?

*off topic*
How about WAR/DNC? Does En-Drain from Drain Samba triggers during Retaliate?

If counter-attack rate is affected by WAR's accuracy + mob's evasion, I am looking at Shield Break or Full Break (WAR/SAM), or WAR/DNC's Quickstep.

Added:
Besides PLD/NIN, my intention also includes PLD/WAR and NIN/WAR in this thread.
______________________________
Just tried.. Drain Samba does not stack with Retaliate.

Now I am wondering what is the purpose of Retaliate?
If the WAR is in DD mode, Retaliate is going to add more hate for more damage output.
If the WAR is in tank mode, Retaliate is also going to lose less hate and have some damage output.

But unlike MNK's counterattack, Retaliate gains TP.

I am going to test WAR/MNK after dinner, to see if Retaliate stack or not stack with MNK's counterattack.

[Malacite]

Retaliation is pretty hard fail IMO.

It doesn't stop hits, but does give TP (nice)

However, it's a lv 60 trait. I ranted about this in another thread. It's absurd that they said they want to make WAR a better tank, then give them this ability at 60. Well what about 30~59? Shit, it still doesn't help keep a WAR alive.

How about fixing armor classes & DEF/VIT already so WAR actually has a reason to equip heavy armor for more than stat boosts.

[Celeal]

Hmmm, let me try to get the fact right ^^'

Retaliate:
(1) The higher delay of the WAR's weapon, more TP per retaliate?

(2) The higher base damage of the weapon, more dmg retaliate?

(3) The amount of Retaliate depends on number of mob's attack at the WAR:
If the mob never attack the WAR, no Retaliate.
If the mob attack the WAR once, one chance of Retaliate.
Given an interval of time, the faster mob attacks (more round of attack during the same interval), more chance *to apply* Retaliate. (Note that the proc rate is the same; I am not referring to the proc rate)

(4) Mob's attack and delay has not effect on the dmg output from Retaliate? (no confirmed, is there any cap for each hit from Retaliate?)

Thus:
(a) 2-handed weapon has advantage over single handed weapon for Retaliate.

(b) It is ideal to take a weak hit from the mob, and Retaliate a strong hit to the mob.

The 1st combo that comes into my mind is WAR/BLU using G.Axe, tanking weak mob (VT). Idk... this is very weird... Orz

[Ziero]

How about fixing armor classes & DEF/VIT already so WAR actually has a reason to equip heavy armor for more than stat boosts.

It's rumored that VIT boosts retaliate's proc rate

And it stacks with shield blocks

Meaning a Turtle war in tanking gear with a shield will take less dmg and swing more often.

Basically, it gives defensive Wars more offensive might, which they need to hold hate.

[Celeal]

VIT + Shield? No WAR/SAM or G.Axe?

It feels like a Hybrid-DD PLD tank but gear in reverse order~

For size 3 shield (Kite Shield) that a WAR tank practically can equip after Retaliate:
Hard Shield (lvl 48)
Ice Shield (lvl 72)
Koening Shield (lvl 73)
Acheron Shield (lvl 75)

Size 4 shield (Tower Shield):
Tatami Shield (lvl 72)

The rest is are size 1 or size 2. From level 60 to 71 the choice is .... the WAR got the shields that are not popular for PLD.

At this point I don't think Retaliate is designed for WAR to tank like a tradition solo tank does, or it has a lot of flaws in it for WAR tanking.

[Lmnop]

Hi, guys. For some reason I wasn't getting flashing Warrior forum icons the entire time this thread has existed.

Since no one seemed to care in the thread where I originally posted my findings...

http://www.ffxionline.com/forums/765266-post111.html

Playing with Retaliation.

3 minute duration/reuse. Just like Defender. Heading off to solo stuff and test it as well as /dnc nerf.

sound like someone using a Warp Scroll.

-------------------------

First fight, EP goblin bandit.
Hit 8 times, retaliated thrice. (37.5%)

Second fight, DC Goblin Mercenary.
Hit 16 times, retaliated 8 times. (50%)

Third fight, DC Velociraptor. [53 exp]
Hit 19 times, retaliated 4 times. (21%)

Interesting bit about Retaliation: These first 3 fights, I was always retaliate the first time I was struck. This makes me think it works on a Seigan/3E principle, with the chances lessening over time.

Fourth fight, DC Velociraptor again. [50 exp]
Hit 20 times, retaliated 6 times. (30%)

Fifth fight (and my last that I'll babble about, here), DC Cockatrice [86 exp]
Discounting times I was hit while petrafied, and also the time he hit me on approach (I was still registering as "out of range")
Hit 28 times, retaliated 13 times. (46.4%)

It's its own line in the chat log, so it reads:
"The Goblin bandit hits Repion for 34 points of damage.
Repion retaliates. The Goblin Bandit takes 165 points of damage."

Out of 91 swings, I retaliated 33 times.

This isn't nearly big enough to be accurate, but so far it's a 36% activation rate. Not too shabby. I would say the raptors give compelling evidence that level difference will hurt a lot, but the cockatrice doesn't seem to support that idea. If anything, maybe the higher evasion. But even though I'm only wearing +10 acc for this, I shouldn't be missing these guys...

One more thing: Retaliation swings cannot proc additional effects.

I also fought an EM rabbit later with similar Retaliation results.

I think using a shield would be great and all, but I'm siding with Celeal: each Retaliation is worth more with a greataxe. MUCH more. A handful of times, now, I've double attacked on the same round as a Retaliation. +40 tp is excellent. I did all these tests as /dnc and was gaining TP faster than I had a use for it.

I also hunted EP cactuars for Star Spinel thing with my sister (whm) as war/sam. It was quite fun with Seigan/third eye usually absorbing the damage that I don't avoid. (of course - they're just EP) Was nice to see one of my last anticipates be a counter, then retaliate within 10 seconds.

I was commenting to my sister that after 4 years, how it's amazing how WAR can still be such a blast (even on weak guys like those). We were noting that with a combo like war/sam, you never have a shortage of things to do these days. I, for one, hope I can fit war/sam into some tanking capacity (I'm thinking low-man NMs) as it's very enjoyable.

EDIT: bolded a section of my original post to answer one of Celeal's questions.

[ItachiKujata]

I used retaliation throughout a merit party yesterday and having it up didn't have any noticeable impact but then again I wouldn't have expected it to since I was /NIN.

I can see it helping a war/dnc gain some more TP... but I'm curious to see the proc rate on VT/IT as opposed to DC things because I barely got any Retaliate procs against mamool.

[Lmnop]

At even a 50% proc rate, you're only getting hit once every 3 fights... it's always going to look like crap in that sort of scenario. Still, I imagine the proc rate will be as low as 20%.

[Selphiie The Enchantress]

I'm just glad Warriors have it, now no more /seacoms from lvl 60+ Warriors saying they don't want to tank.

[Celeal]

TBH, level 60 is too late.

Imagine if a WAR never have a chance to tank in parties between level 30 ~ 59, or refused to tank (DD only): Once that WAR ding level 60, do you expect that WAR readies to tank because he has access to Retaliate? It is risky, unless the WAR has previous tanking experience during level 30 ~ 59, or leveled PLD or NIN tank past 37.

The concept of Retaliate is great, but IMHO it is more useful if the JA is moved to level 40 or even 30, the point which the gap between WAR tanking and other tanks widen.

[Pavlyn]

now no more /seacoms from lvl 60+ Warriors saying they don't want to tank.

just because a job has the ability to do something doesn't mean everyone is going to want to do it. in fact, i think there might be even more search comments saying Shield No thanks just because people will know there is no excuse now and they won't want to anyway.

[Ziero]

I wouldn't have minded it at 50, but that's only because the more I can use it the better. But I certainly don't think it should be under sub lvls and it is *far* from an ability that will magically turn us into a full time tank without the proper set up. We still lack some sort of real damage mitigation, so until we get that we'll still be third-string-at-best tanks.

Wars never had problems with DDing while tanking, it's the fact we get hit so hard and so often that we bleed out a lot of hate. Without a real way to reduce the dmg we take, outside of subjob abilities, we still can't tank as effectively as a Pld or a Nin.

[Celeal]

I have WAR/DNC in my mind.

If WAR/DNC is invite to party as a DD, Quicksteps and Box Steps are nice debuff, Sneak+Invisible Jigs is great for pulling, and Waltz and Animated Flourish are a welcome addition.

If WAR/DNC is invite as tank, on paper it has enough tools to tank.

To sum it up, WAR/DNC fits in to the old school WAR ideal: Master of front line.

[Selphiie The Enchantress]

There was a Warrior I knew back in the day (he was an old school warrior so he started back during BETA) that whenever we went to do Sky/any endgame event he would carry his normal DD setup, but also he would have a setup for EVA/blink tanking and a Terra's staff, and a completely Tanking setup (Adaman/Koenig Shield), so you know his inventory was probably completely filled lol.

I remember back when I was tanking Faust as PLD/WAR one of the WHMs had to go afk to get the door, and the BLMs/RDMs/BRDs just couldnt keep me alive without cure Bombing me, (this was back when i didn't have /nin leveled yet). Once i went down the Warrior (who was hitting Faust with RATT) stepped in and went from Armada Hauberk/Ridill to Koenig Cuirass, Koenig Head, Koenig Shield, Terra's Staff, and tanked him down, (since the Backup Paladin was also AFK >.>)

Warriors Provoke sleeping mobs in Dynamis

Warriors help Sac pull

Warriors CAN TANK

*cough(with the right skill/gear/attitude)cough*

...geesh im all about WAR tanking lately lol...

[Ziero]

Once i went down the Warrior (who was hitting Faust with RATT) stepped in and went from Armada Hauberk/Ridill to Koenig Cuirass, Koenig Head, Koenig Shield, Terra's Staff, and tanked him down, (since the Backup Paladin was also AFK >.>)

...that's one talented War =P

Warriors Provoke sleeping mobs in Dynamis

Warriors help Sac pull

Warriors CAN TANK

*cough(with the right skill/gear/attitude)cough*

...geesh im all about WAR tanking lately lol...

Those aren't really 'main tanking' though, that's holding hate off the mages. I'll admit though, War can be a great tank for a lot of situations, but we could still use some help in terms of damage mitigation when it comes to full time tanking pre 75. A new 'stance' type JA that reduces swing speed but increased Dmg reduction or something? Another JA that ups our damage mitigation but weakens our offense like all our JAs currently do, to allow us to switch from tank to DD at the drop of a hat.

But then again, with all the viable sub job options, SE may have decided to let wars mitigate damage through their abilities.

[Selphiie The Enchantress]

I meant he had a koenig shield and terras staff, depending on situation lol, he always carried both on him ^^

He went in sword and shield at first, but even with his insane tanking gear and defender he was still taking some damage from Typhoon, so he switched to terra's staff.

[Lmnop]

It's a lot of work to get a full tanking set. @60 it was a bit better since 2x Phalanx Rings + full AF is best defense and best enmity, etc etc. @75, you pretty much want full AF for enmity as well as a bunch of other random crap just to take hits better... and you're still gonna want to be able to squeeze in extra offense whenever you can (especially WSs if you plan on using them).

Frankly, I'm a bit discouraged with my ability to negate damage short of Tank food. Even /dnc is just negating one 150 damage swing every 10 seconds (waltz recast being the problem, not the tp gain). To the point that I fear war/dnc would never get out of their self-cure get-up (luckily, lots of VIT+ helps taking hits to some extent as well as self cures).

Anyway, my point is that Retaliation hasn't really magically made us tanks. I've never been afraid to tank (assuming I'm awake) but I don't see a whole lot of the advantage Retaliation has given us for straight tanking.

Still, I'm going to work on a build to maybe use meat dishes or sushi, full time defender and tank gear, and rely on natural stats and retaliation to put out impressive damage.

[Nataka]

Frankly, I'm a bit discouraged with my ability to negate damage short of Tank food. Even /dnc is just negating one 150 damage swing every 10 seconds (waltz recast being the problem, not the tp gain). To the point that I fear war/dnc would never get out of their self-cure get-up (luckily, lots of VIT+ helps taking hits to some extent as well as self cures).

Anyway, my point is that Retaliation hasn't really magically made us tanks. I've never been afraid to tank (assuming I'm awake) but I don't see a whole lot of the advantage Retaliation has given us for straight tanking.

Still, I'm going to work on a build to maybe use meat dishes or sushi, full time defender and tank gear, and rely on natural stats and retaliation to put out impressive damage.

In the long run I think waltzes have similiar recast to the regular cure spells (if you include cast time), with the waltzes being instant cast instead (so they have the cure cast time + recast for a recast duration).

That's also pretty key... A /dnc will never get interrupted by curing him or herself. On top of that warriors get a flash in the form of animated flourish, and if our AF is really good tanking gear like you say, we get even more +enmity than a paladin. The downfall though is that this all requires us hitting the mob so our hate generation isnt as fast or reliable as a paladin. Anything that resets TP to zero is also a big problem (Colibri and BCNM-style events come to mind).

Thusly in conclusion I'd say what has pretty much been said: There is potential there, a LOT of potential, but as of warrior's current abilities we cant replace a paladin in every situation, and I imagine it'd probably be better to use a paladin if one is available...But if you're forming an exp party and all that is available is a war, and he agrees to it, it's a definite possibilty. SE said they wanted to grant another class some ability to tank in some situations, I think war/dnc has the potential to be what the doctor ordered.

At the very least, it'll work a heck of a lot better than a war/nin tanking before level 74! :P

PS If none of that made sense, sorry. XD I'm tired and need to sleep lol.

[Celeal]

In the long run I think waltzes have similiar recast to the regular cure spells (if you include cast time), with the waltzes being instant cast instead (so they have the cure cast time + recast for a recast duration).

That's also pretty key... A /dnc will never get interrupted by curing him or herself. On top of that warriors get a flash in the form of animated flourish, and if our AF is really good tanking gear like you say, we get even more +enmity than a paladin. The downfall though is that this all requires us hitting the mob so our hate generation isnt as fast or reliable as a paladin. Anything that resets TP to zero is also a big problem (Colibri and BCNM-style events come to mind).

Thusly in conclusion I'd say what has pretty much been said: There is potential there, a LOT of potential, but as of warrior's current abilities we cant replace a paladin in every situation, and I imagine it'd probably be better to use a paladin if one is available...But if you're forming an exp party and all that is available is a war, and he agrees to it, it's a definite possibilty. SE said they wanted to grant another class some ability to tank in some situations, I think war/dnc has the potential to be what the doctor ordered.

At the very least, it'll work a heck of a lot better than a war/nin tanking before level 74! :P

PS If none of that made sense, sorry. XD I'm tired and need to sleep lol.

Since Retaliate return TP, I think it works well with WAR/DNC.

Assuming a WAR/DNC tank would spam Box Step (defense down) or Quickstep (evasion down), it is okay for WAR/DNC tank to wear more defensive gear.

Another method is save TP for WS, instead of using Steps.

In exp. parties, there should be healer(s) to take care the WAR/DNC tank.

A weak spot of WAR/DNC tank is taking non-physical (magical) damage.

Added:
I have no experience with WAR/DNC, but I have been using PLD/DNC a lot for tanking/solo Campaign Battles and one merit party. I notice that the more I dance, the less WS I can use. With PLD/DNC, I could solo the regular mobs in Campaign Battle, hold solid hate from beginning to end while the rest of the players gang the mob.

In exp. party, WAR/DNC has enough tool for tanking.

[Lmnop]

I took war/dnc to Sky to farm. On most of the mobs (dolls and golems), I was getting tons of quarter resists on Drain Samba 2 (40 is absolute max and I was seeing a lot of single digits... admittedly, that may have been due to lots of 1-handers in the party and I was seeing their smaller drains instead of my big GA drains). But this makes me worry about exp parties. An extra 10 hp every 8 seconds is a lot less impressive than an extra 25-35 (what I average on DC-EM).

Insta-curing PLD who gets dropped to 150 HP is nice... he gets to live one extra swing (long enough for cure V to land).

I also took war/dnc to worms assault recently (there's always someone in the group that's still PSC). Total layout was nin/war, mnk/nin, war/dnc, brd/whm. So brd and I were the only healers. Worked out quite well despite me only having +3 CHR.

... I'm not sure what made me want to bring up that story. I guess it's just counterpoint to the bleak outlook of story #1.

About the waltz vs PLD curing...
PLDs don't really have a lot to swap to for curing, as far as I can tell. +Enmity is nice. But they don't try to load on +MND and see magically better effects. Meanwhile, Waltzes encourage equip swapping more since it's so easy to see the benefits of equipping the correct gear. When you're using 1/3rd of a WS just to cure yourself, you want it to be as efficient as possible.

Well... we'll see how it all goes. Ideally, I'd like to build a gear set that emphasizes VIT for self curing. But then, I'd also like to have lots of +CHR gear for situations like my worms or when fighting mobs with lots of AoE. But having both is just ludicrous. As much as I'd like those sets in addition to full enmity, full attack, full acc, full WS swaps...

[Celeal]

Single digit En-Drain for Drain Samba II for WAR/DNC? Hmm... Maybe there are other factors that affects the resistance of Drain Samba, I am not so sure. As for my PLD/DNC, En-Drain from Drain Samba II is fairly consistence: two digits (10~12 HP) per sword swing.

As for Curing Waltz II, my PLD/DNC is around 168 ~ 178+ HP depends on amount of VIT+ gear I am using. (I don't see the need for gear swapping, IMHO)

But I guess it is not fair to compare WAR/DNC with PLD/DNC, because PLD can Flash (evade a few hit) and Shield Block reduce a lot of incoming damage. On top of that, PLD can use Cures too.