Thf, the new bst in SE's eye?

[Akashimo]

Is it me or has THF really started to be over looked as BST was back in the day by SE?

No I'm not attacking BSTs, just using as a comparison.
(Also, BBQ, please don't take this as an attack ._. )

Like this update, we get a shared 5min JA that only does 50% of what the first does. Two handers boost reduced us to lolthf outside of TH whores.
Still the issue of two handers at endgame and some ptys/meripos would just /thf. Any change in formula to SATA really doesn't seem to cut the fact of it all.

I don't know, it just seems this way to me.

[Shadowneko]

I don't know myself as I'm on an indefinite break from playing THF untill I farm up gill for more endagme gear. It seems to me SE wants to mke us the ultmite hate contorlers but parties are still had to come by from what I hear and alot of people have no idea how to work with a real THF....

/thf is gimped and people don't get it...

[Balfree]

THF is still a respectable spike damage dealer, an invaluable help in enmitny management and fairly good soloer for many activities.

What would you like to see THF become?

[LadyKiKi]

EDIT: Sorry, mistaken post.

[Callisto]

The ability THF got is actually a very nice medium for evening out hate in dual-tanking situations where a full on Accomplice would either screw hate in the fight completely or mpk the THF. It's actually a thoughtful option THF was given, and very good for good THFs who understand their abilities and role in emnity management.

And outside of Group 2 merits, which all jobs got, MNK, BLM, and RDM haven't been updated since '04, with the exception of nerfs to both BLM and RDM. Don't complain.

[Akashimo]

What would you like to see THF become?
I'd want thief to be more than just a zeg DD sub job that emulates spike damage to the point thf main is just useless for its main purpose outside of TH+3/4.
All honesty, make it so Trick Attack cannot be accessed subbed.

The ability THF got is actually a very nice medium for evening out hate in dual-tanking situations where a full on Accomplice would either screw hate in the fight completely or mpk the THF. It's actually a thoughtful option THF was given, and very good for good THFs who understand their abilities and role in emnity management.
Most of the time, I'd want to have shared hate with the tank so I'd generally steal from someone who spiked it off just so when the chance comes I can hold it until we recovered. Which works quit well.
The 25% is also nice, but I just don't like the fact its on the same timer. If you can restrict it from targeting the same person, I'd go for that instead of sharing 5 mins with Accomplice and vise versa.
/thf is gimped and people don't get it...
They do, its for zerging max hate onto tanks with little effort. Which also allows two handers to easly get higher spike dmg than thf, with our own abilities.

And outside of Group 2 merits, which all jobs got, MNK, BLM, and RDM haven't been updated since '04, with the exception of nerfs to both BLM and RDM. Don't complain.
I agree there, but still, those jobs don't have abilities that allows people to take their place completely.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Why would I take such absurd statements as an attack on BST?

THF got a lot of updates, but the problem still remains similar to my problem with NIN.

Their best abilities are useable under sub, meaning NIN and THF can't claim them as exclusive.

That's what needs to be fixed about NIN and THF and I don't know why SE just won't do it. Now that there's subbable sneak /NIN-tards will whore the sub even more.

And they'll get thier asses kicked from all my CoP runs if they try to /NIN to be cheap.

[Nataka]

They where desirable especially during the days of skill chains. Perhaps with the reduction in resist rates on SCes they'll see more invites. :)

[Ziero]

Is it me or has THF really started to be over looked as BST was back in the day by SE?

No I'm not attacking BSTs, just using as a comparison.
(Also, BBQ, please don't take this as an attack ._. )

Like this update, we get a shared 5min JA that only does 50% of what the first does. Two handers boost reduced us to lolthf outside of TH whores.
Still the issue of two handers at endgame and some ptys/meripos would just /thf. Any change in formula to SATA really doesn't seem to cut the fact of it all.

I don't know, it just seems this way to me.

Actually, the new JA has a 1 minute recast, not a 5 minute one. So it's half the enmity of Accomplice but at 1/5th the timer. It's just that when you use one, you can't use the other until the recast of the one you did use is refreshed. It's obvious they did that to keep Thfs from going full on tank by stealing 75% of a single target's enmity at the drop of a hat.

Now they just need to give us another way to give someone else MORE hate while giving us another trick to shed hate completely and we'll be the Enmity masters they're pushing us into being.

Honestly, I like it when SE gives us 'tricks and toys' rather then blunt, full on damage boosts and the like because Thf *should* be a smart melee job. It should require planning and strategy on the Thf's part to be at peak efficiancy.

[Akashimo]

I've tested it off my npc last night, its a 5 min recast. SE even stated, shared recast timer.

[711rocks]

I like the 1 min recast
KI was discussing thf needing a Crit+ ja or trait - wishful thinking but could be cool if something was added

[Ziero]

I've tested it off my npc last night, its a 5 min recast. SE even stated, shared recast timer.

Then you're doing it wrong.

When you use Accomplice, both the recast timers for Accomplice and Collaborator are 5 minutes.

When you use Collaborator, both the recast timers for Accomplice and Collaborator are 1 minute.

They DO share the same timer, but they each have their own recast times. I know this because I tested it too and using Collaborator DID give me a 1 minute recast for both Collaborator and Accomplice.

Collab is made so it can be used in PTs, possibly along with SaTa to help things along. Accomp is made so it can save the life of some crazy mage/DD and is best saved for an "oh crap" situation. This update gave Thfs a weaker Accomp on a shorter timer...without actually changing Accomp to make it too powerful. So now this ability to literally steal hate from others is something that we can use full time in pts as opposed to the 'once-every 4 mobs' accomp was before.

The only question I have left now is what level is Collaborator?
______________________________
I like the 1 min recast
KI was discussing thf needing a Crit+ ja or trait - wishful thinking but could be cool if something was added
While a Crit+ ja/trait or whatever would be cool, it'd be too simple a boost imo. Like I said earlier, I think it would be better to expand on this 'Enmity master' thing we're seeing more of. Adding a another JA that would allow us to put hate on another player and another JA to loose hate entirely would give Thfs a much more defined role as masters of hate manipulation. While we would still be outshined in terms of raw damage, we would still be viable DDs with the added bonus of being able to move and shift hate between players and actually dumping excess hate if someone pulls too much. Right now we can sort of do that with things like TA and Hide, but they're both far too restrictive to be put to full use.

I'd also like to see Mug made to be worth a damn to use. No reason such a crappy JA should have a 15 minute recast.

[Malacite]

Taking away TA from /THF won't do anyone any good.

Rather, SE should come up with more buffs for SA & TA (maybe boost base triple attack rate to 10%?) and for god's sake A+ dagger rating already.


I don't think THF has too many problems in terms of combat. I'd rather see SE do more to enhance it's money making abilities. Yeah I know, RMT would abuse this too but SE's shown a lot of creativity and determination as of late in the fight against RMT. Therefor, I don't think it would kill them to buff THF in areas outside of combat.

Oh yeah, and why is TH2 still the only ability that actually has a distinction between it's lower leveled version? Is there really a difference between the two or has SE simply been too damned lazy to errata the other jobs' multi-tiered abilities? Shit they finally added help text for scrolls...

[Wise Donkey]

I think THF's largest problem is the largely ignorant/lazy community, not the job or its abilities. Burn parties made SATA obsolete, and since that is all anone does anymore 55+, THF has fallen by the wayside as "just another DD". I think if SC+MB parties ever make a resurgence, we will also see a resurgence of the THF's true roll in parties.

Edit: I like the idea of TA being made "one-handed weapons onry". I think that would put a lot of the SATA power back in THF hands. The only negative effect I see from that is upset 2-hander weapon SATA /THF players. It wouldn't negate /THF as a good DD SJ for SA, yet would allow THF the main rights to SATA. There would still be a few jobs that could /THF SATA, but a lot of the love would go back to THF, I would think.

[711rocks]

LS mate was talking about using Collaborator to tank; although it doesn't seem likely. I think this was added so you can trick attack melee in merits and they may not run away now (omgz 500 hate) Now you can trick them and take some of it back

[Zempten]

I highly doubt anyone minds being TAed on in merit PTs, considering the time spent to kill the mob is around 30-45 seconds. It's SA + WS in a merit PT that's the problem.

[Akashimo]

SA WS in meripo is the problem but for the other activites its both/TA + ws.

[Malacite]

THF in my shell was explaining it last night. He's absolutely thrilled about Collaborator and persuaded me in the belief that the people shooting it down as crap, saying SE is ignoring THF are ignorant.


As he pointed out, it's on a 1 minute timer. This allows for a lot of flexible hate control now. BLM just bursted a high lv nuke and didn't kill the mob? NP. WHM in trouble from a Cure V? Again, np.

Now THF can jack some hate every minute and add that extra hate to their Trick Attacks. I think this is what SE meant to do in the first place. Like my LS mate said, Accomplice is really more of an emergency ability.

[Ziero]

While that concept does sound great, the only real problem is that the extra hate will *not* affect TA in any way. Only the hate from the hit itself will transfer over when TA is used, so any Hate a Thf manages to build up will still belong to the thf.

Personally, I think boosting it so Thf TA actually does transfer a percentage of the Thf's hate, instead of just the hit, would be an excellent boost and follow along with this "master of hate manipulation" bit SE is pushing towards. If we could go around plucking small amounts of hate from people, then drop ALL of it onto a tank, that would be absolutely awesome imo.

Again, I personally like making thf into a 'technical' melee Job, so the more little tricks like that we can do, the better.

[Akashimo]

Now THF can jack some hate every minute and add that extra hate to their Trick Attacks. No. You sound like Slycooper -.-

While that concept does sound great, the only real problem is that the extra hate will *not* affect TA in any way. Only the hate from the hit itself will transfer over when TA is used, so any Hate a Thf manages to build up will still belong to the thf.If only people learn this faster -_-; Also see above quote.

[Celeal]

Collaborator is opposite of Trick Attack, IMHO:
Trick Attack == Increase Hate of a member (TA + WS)
Collaborator == Reduce Hate of a member (grab a percentage of hate directly)

THF and NIN tank should dance happily together.

As long as Collaborator combines THF's current hate is below the *tank* hate threshold, it is all good.

[711rocks]

tanked shikigami really easily using Collab in a party of thf/nin, drk/sam, rdm/bst, and rdm/whm this morning
its a fun ability
we got drop too so that was tight

[Kaickul]

I think THF's largest problem is the largely ignorant/lazy community, not the job or its abilities.

Yeah, that's why I pretty much gave up on THF... for having to rely on other people. I just got tired of having to expect other people to recognize that THF is a job that requires their cooperation.

I was happy after our weapon damage increase though, considering we will never do as much damage as other jobs with our evasion.

[Eauijhkuu]

It's not great, but it's not horrible.

It's not flowers, Akashimo;
But it's not all thorns either.

I'm honestly liking the fact that Square Enix wants to remedy the situation to give us more avenues to conduct enmity in parties. Albeit, there's alot of other things that the dev. team could have come up with (Especially as far as Steal, Aura Steal, and Mug are concerned), I think it's a step in a more useful direction.
I've always considered my usefulness in helping to manage hate in a party - This makes it slightly easier.

That's not to say that the job is going to suddenly become more popular or demanded for certain events; But the avenue is there.

In honesty tho, I think the death of Skillchain usage causes alot of bias and ignorance. But it's overly obvious that the only people meant to skillchain nowadays are people who gain a great deal of TP. And since the mobs die fast enough, there's no need to manage hate, or tank, for that matter.

[Nuriko]

As he pointed out, it's on a 1 minute timer. This allows for a lot of flexible hate control now. BLM just bursted a high lv nuke and didn't kill the mob? NP. WHM in trouble from a Cure V? Again, np.

Just one small note ... Cure V doesn't draw much hate, it's more or less equal to a Cure III. It's Cure IV that really grabs it ... besides, WHM have the Regens to manage hate too. I could see RDM loving this for when they have to do Convert / Cure IV, though

[711rocks]

the problem(s) with accom and collab imo, are distance and maybe pt only
how often are you next to the blm you're trying to save? i find i always have to run after them.
as for the alliancewide part, trick attack is, why not make this? then we could be getting brd buffs or w/e in the melee pt and still save a blm in need

of course this assumes theres a thf in the main alliance before a mob has 3% of its hp left olololololol

D:

[IfritnoItazura]

This allows for a lot of flexible hate control now. BLM just bursted a high lv nuke and didn't kill the mob? NP. WHM in trouble from a Cure V? Again, np.Just one small note ... Cure V doesn't draw much hate, it's more or less equal to a Cure III. It's Cure IV that really grabs it ... besides, WHM have the Regens to manage hate too. I could see RDM loving this for when they have to do Convert / Cure IV, though
What Nuriko says about Cure V.

He's also right about the Convert; I was taking full advantage of Accomplice in merit parties by Converting and DS+Cure IV right next the melees (getting buddy-buddy with the THF, to be more specific).

The finer grained control from Collaborator is nice, as is the better recast timer.

[Malacite]

Right my bad, meant Cure IV (forgot Cure V has that reduced enmity trait)

[Akashimo]

Wasn't the emity posts a little while back stated Cure V has a high CE but not as VE as the others? So it'll still build up, just not as changing as Cure IV or lets say, a voke.

[Shadowneko]

thanks for the long discussion people. I kept wondering how to use the new THF JAs(having not played THF in a long time) and somewhere in the nice long debate I got my answer ^^