Elemental Syphon

[Gobo]

Just tried it out in Rolan. Matched day to spirit. Recovered 276 MP. Dunno if day affects results. 5 min recast, but 250+ MP recovered is pretty nice.

[Silent Howler]

I was just about to post my observation on this. Saw a Summoner testing this at Qufim Island when I logged on and they drained 146 MP from their light spirit (light day but no light weather). Don't know what level they were since they were anon, but highest level piece of equipment they had on was 56.

Could this possibly be affected by Summoning magic skill? That would give us a reason to keep it up.

[MrMageo]

would also explain why Gobo got 276 i think thats the soft cap for an A+ skill, now all SMN needs to do is /SCH have a prepetual refresh of 3 +gear and thats 1 i can take off my refresh list HURRAY FOR SE

*edit*assuming you have capped skill

[Truece]

How potent is this at sub level? While I doubt this would close the gap between /SCH and /SMN for WHM, I wonder if it could be situationally useful?

I'd test for myself, but I've still got an hour left to download ; ;

[Silent Howler]

It might not be available at sub level, but not sure yet. I know my 24 Summoner doesn't have it yet.

[Kitalrez]

Light Spirit @ 257 base skill, raised to 277 through gear
Apollo's Staff
Darksday
No weather

204 mp back


And now I wait 5 mins. I suppose it'll cut downtime some, but it kind of seems like a glorified Aspir right now. Don't get me wrong, this is a skill that'll save your butt, but it won't get you anywhere near the point where you don't have to sit for large portions of the party. Also, the elemental continues to drain mp away as you use this, you have to let it go almost instantaneously to achieve maximum benefit. I think I would've preferred some kind of very low refresh effect and no mp cost from ele's for the duration, as then I could at least have something out and doing things while I got mp recharged. It's not great on the level that Carby Mitts and refresh cloaks were, but it's not horrible either.

[MrMageo]

hmmm perhaps it may have bearing on the day/weather, its just me but i find light elemental to be weak on dark day, and vice versa. Perhaps you can test earth on earth and see what happens.

[Bolla]

yay hip hip cheer we got something:)

[Vatic]

I think I was the person mentioned on testing with a light spirit in quifin.
I am a lvl 56 SMN.

OK, What I learnt.
test 1

Light Spirit on Light day, no weather.
have +10 on summoning skill as equips, using light staff
Got 147 MP
did again
Got 147 MP
did again
Got 147MP

test 2
same set up, but letting element build up tp
pet TP 0 = 147 MP
pet TP 100+ = 147 MP
pet TP 200+ = 147 MP
pet TP 300 = 147 MP

good news, TP is not a factor.

unequiped all gear that has summoning magic + on it, and repeated test 1

1st - 137 MP
2nd - 137 MP
3rd - 137 MP

changed to full equips, and used dark spirit on light day + light staff

128 MP.

Thats the sum of my testing so far.

[Saren]

Just for the record, level 40 smn, no Elemental Siphon JA.

[Sabaron]

Is this just another whip-it-out-and-put-it-back move?

1. Summon X Spirit.
2. Siphon.
3. Banish X Spirit.
4. Go back to healing.

Is this a reason to actually keep a spirit out instead of putting it away, because my impression is that it doesn't really change summoner in any way except to give them a periodic MP regain ability.

[Roo]

Using spirits not of the current day grants (skill - 50) MP returned unaffected by staves. Using spirit of the day grants (skill - 26)MP returned. Have not spent enough time chasing down weather to test that. Vatic should be able to verify by telling us his skill.

My testing for the record
Wind day/wind elemental/wind staff
272 return - 298 skill with equip

Wind day/wind elemental/ earth staff
272 return - 298 skill

Thunder day/wind elemental/ wind staff
248 - 298 skill
233 - 283 skill

Thunder day/earth elemental/earth staff
243 - 293 skill

[Gobo]

Using spirits not of the current day grants (skill - 50) MP returned unaffected by staves. Using spirit of the day grants (skill - 26)MP returned. Have not spent enough time chasing down weather to test that. Vatic should be able to verify by telling us his skill.

My testing for the record
Wind day/wind elemental/wind staff
272 return - 298 skill with equip

Wind day/wind elemental/ earth staff
272 return - 298 skill

Thunder day/wind elemental/ wind staff
248 - 298 skill
233 - 283 skill

Thunder day/earth elemental/earth staff
243 - 293 skill

Oh good, this makes for a great case to merit SMN skill now. Would be possible to get 300+ MP back with the right gear and day.

[Bolla]

Hmm will we get more mp if we use our 2 hour?

[Sabaron]

Hmm will we get more mp if we use our 2 hour?

They're separate JA's. I don't see why Astral Flow would affect it.

[Kitalrez]

Ok, looking at the numbers, were I to raise summoning magic 2 points to the cap for lvl 73, I'd be at 259 skill. Using my torque, earring and ring, I can get that to 279. Assuming I use Elemental Siphon on the spirit of the day, I'll get back about 279 mp. Not bad. Here's what I can do with that.

@73 SMN, a spirit costs 18 mp a tick, or roughly 18mp/3 seconds.
@259 skill for 73 smn, or the lvl cap for summoning magic, it'll cast roughly once every 45 seconds. I'm 20 above cap, putting me at 39 seconds. Since I'm using it on the correct day for ES purposes, this will reduce another 3 seconds to 36.
So... 36 seconds go by and eat up around 216 mp normally, (I use austere robe, evoker's ring and HQ staff to get this down to 156 mp). At this point it will start to cast a spell.
If I hit /assault immediately upon seeing the casting notice, another 36 seconds will go by before it casts a 2nd spell. This uses up a 2nd 210 (156) mp. At this point, if you had just the 10 mp to cast the spell and siphon when you started, you would be out of mp or close to it. So, basically you get 2 spells off. If they were both IVs or AMs, that might not be bad. If it was Rasp and Slow, you're pretty much screwed. Also, he can be interrupted mid-cast.

Let's now assume you're at full merits for elemental perp and lvl 75 capped skill.

75=269 skill.
Full merit=13mp/tick spirit perp
*Conceivably at 75 SMN you could stand at least an even chance of getting the following gear*
Nashira's Gages from Limbus: -1 perp
Evoker's Ring: -1 perp, +10 summoning magic
Evoker's Doublet: -3 perp/day (For our purposes this will be always active) +1 version doesn't do anything for spirits over regular.
HQ staff of the day: -3 perp
Summoning Earring: +3 skill
Summoning Torque: +7 skill
Evoker's Pigaches +1: -1 perp, (normal doesn't have this).
Evoker's Horn: +5 skill
Summoner's Spats: -5 casting time for spirits.

Total: -9 perp, +25.
So, you've got 4 perp/tick with full merits, and 294 skill. Skill reduces your cast timer by 8 seconds under this setup, dropping it to 32 when you factor in the -5 from spats.
10 mp to summon... ES for ~300 mp.
32 seconds go by, costing you 40 mp in perp.
Cast 1
next 32 seconds barring an AM = 40mp.
Cast 2
next 32 seconds. 40 mp
Cast 3
next 32. 40 mp
Cast 4
next 32. 40 mp
Cast 5.
You probably have barely enough mp to complete this cast before spirit goes down to 0 mp.

So, 5 spells... perhaps six if your spirit is summoned while you have aggro on you, since this halves the time to the first cast. 5 AMs might be nice. 5 Rasps would probably suck.

[Omniblast]

It's a craptacular convert. That's all it is. I would have liked the timer every 2 minutes atleast. Bah.

[IfritnoItazura]

It's a craptacular convert. That's all it is. I would have liked the timer every 2 minutes atleast. Bah.

Huh?

As Mithra RDM75 on mostly AF and AH gear, my Convert yields ~900 MP if I stretch MP to the last twenty or so. (Less, if I want a little more HP post-Convert.) This new SMN job ability apparently can gives~300 MP per use, without the damage to HP bar, every 5 minutes.

Convert without merit is 10 minutes in recast. In that time, a SMN can recover ~600 MP. You have summoning cost for the spirit, while I have drop a Cure IV and maybe an additional Cure III, situation depending.

It may not be as good as Convert, but sure is not shabby.

[Pteryx]

It may not be as good as Convert, but sure is not shabby.

And it's timed to work once a chain, for when they finally fix the party type balance. And it's based on actually summoning, something SMN could stand to have more excuses to do.

I'm satisfied with this as a significant step in the right direction. SMN's not fixed, but it's better, and now has two subs to boot. -- Pteryx

[Vatic]

I wil agreee with the statment that smn is not fixed.

Even tho its a new ability, I dont think it is ballanced.

I am a Taru, and my SMN is lvl 56, at the moment in party setup I have 989 MP. If I change 2 equips I have, I then have 1040 MP, at lvl 56. I am not finished with getting my equips, in I am expleacting to be adding about 40 MP to both those figuers.

and this current with full smn magic equips I get +14 ontop of my capped 183 I get 160 MP is back. To me thats more like a 6th of my MP Pool.

Other races would have smaller mp pools than me with exactly same equips, and get the same about of MP back at my lvl.

My point is, to me at the moment I am getting 1/6 of me mp back, while for other races, they could be benfiting more from it, by having a smaller MP pool, because they will be getting up to 1/5 of there mp pool back.

[Feenicks]

It helps, that's the way I see it.

The primary tip to being a good mage, in my opinion, is to conserve MP usage wherever you can. Don't waste MP and you'll be much better off. For me, Elemental Siphon is a way to relax the amount of conservation you have to do and gives you more room to achieve a little more as SMN.

[IfritnoItazura]

Other races would have smaller mp pools than me with exactly same equips, and get the same about of MP back at my lvl.
OK... So everyone with the same gears and skills gets the same MP back. That's ... unfair? How?

My point is, to me at the moment I am getting 1/6 of me mp back, while for other races, they could be benfiting more from it, by having a smaller MP pool, because they will be getting up to 1/5 of there mp pool back.
Well, the solution is obviously to reduce the amount of MP Tarutaru has, so the job ability will return ~1/5 of your MP as well. :lipseal:

[MrMageo]

lol take away my MP and ill bite your knee caps.

the way i see it XXX MP is still XXX MP no mater what MP pool it goes into. Its better than not having anything at all, right?

[Vatic]

You are right that, that any MP back is a good thing.

But this point I was trying to make, is I think that ablility should have worked off a percentage of the smns mp pool, rather than a direct translation of the smn skill magic.

Like for instance, the abilitiy on the same day at element would give like 20% MP back, and for every skill over the cap, you get like and extra .5% on top.

If it is the wrong day, then there is a 5% reduction, or something like that.

But to the case of lowering the MP pool, not going to happen, most of my parties I have to main heal, the more MP I have to manage, means more possible chains for the party.

[Saren]

Other races would have smaller mp pools than me with exactly same equips, and get the same about of MP back at my lvl.

My point is, to me at the moment I am getting 1/6 of me mp back, while for other races, they could be benfiting more from it, by having a smaller MP pool, because they will be getting up to 1/5 of there mp pool back.

Nonononono they aren't benefitting more than you they are benefitting the same as you. It doesn't matter what proportion of your mp pool you are getting back what matters is the amount you get back. Two smn in the same gear can do exactly the same things with 100 or 200 or 300mp.

But this point I was trying to make, is I think that ablility should have worked off a percentage of the smns mp pool, rather than a direct translation of the smn skill magic.

Why? Why should a taru smn get more mp back than a Galka one? Also, summoning skill is very central to how a lot of the job works so it makes sense that the ability be based off skill. Just because convert works off a percentage doesn't mean anyything else necessarily should, rdm is a 'jack of all trades' both job wise and skill wise (barring enfeebling skill), smn is gyroscopically based around summoning skill.

[Omniblast]

ok I take back my previous comment a little bit as I had more of a chance to play it last night.

SMN/SCH was partied up with me last night, they would do Elemental Siphon, and Sublimation. Every 4~5 minutes (Sublimation needs about 4 minutes to work depending on your hp) Sublimation gave back roughly 184~194 mp, and Elemental Siphon gave back roughly 261-284 mp for them.
They didn't rest much except when all the imps were dead and kept their MP up through out the time we were fighting. It wasn't a bad Combination now that I think about it a bit. :)

Need 4 more levels of SCH and I'm done for sub. XD

[Sabaron]

So... Let's look at SMN/SCH.

Your siphon returns roughly as much MP as you have skill, so you're now getting at 75, 270ish MP every 5 minutes that's equivalent to...

270/5 = 54 mp/minute
54/60 = 0.9 mp/second
0.9 * 3 = 2.7 mp/tick....

You're 0.3 off of an extra refresh spell that doesn't cost anything Come on now... That's awesome.

SMNs are always saying how they would like more auto-refresh so they could keep their pets out... Well.... There it friggin' is!

Now... let's add /SCH's Sublimation when we don't have a RDM...

A Hume SMN has a base HP at level 75 of about 890. Sublimation can convert up to 25% of that into MP...

890 * 0.25 = 222.5

It takes 890 * 3/8 = 333.75 seconds (5.56 minutes).

You have to cast a Cure III to fix it which costs 46mp so we net...

222 - 46 = 176mp every 333 seconds or:

176/333*3 = 1.6mp/tick

So an extra 1/2 Refresh.

With the setup: RDM + BRD + SMN/WHM, you'll be getting 3 (Refresh) + 3 (Ballad) + 1 (Auto-refresh) + 2.7 (Siphon) = 9.7mp/tick or 10.7mp/tick in ToAU/WoTG. Let me make that bigger...

With BRD+RDM: 10.7 MP Per Tick

Without the RDM... BRD + SMN/SCH, you'll be getting 3 (Ballad) + 1 (Auto-refresh) + 2.7 (Siphon) + 1.6 (Sublimation) = 8.3 base, 9.3 ToAU/WotG

With BRD: 9.3 MP Per Tick

With just the RDM... BRD + SMN/SCH, you'll be getting 3 (Refresh) + 1 (Auto-refresh) + 2.7 (Siphon) = 6.7 base, 7.7 ToAU/WotG

With RDM: 7.7 MP Per Tick

All by your lonesome, SMN/SCH, you get 1 (Auto-refresh) + 2.7 (Siphon) + 1.6 (Sublimation) = 5.3 base, 6.3 ToAU/WotG

Solo: 6.3 MP Per Tick

Should we give SMN the ability Auto-Refresh VII too?

Let's do more...

If you happen to be using Sublimation, you can't rest. Why not whip out a pet?

[Omniblast]

While your at it, add in the cost of Regen II instead of the cost of casting Cure 3 and you've saved 10 MP. Don't forget the reduced cost of having Light Arts on as well. So 33 mp vs. 42mp or so.

My party setup was basically 4 summoners doing imps, so we didn't care too much about having down time. Though we did too many risky pulls and got a bit cocky.

[Thoris]

i would love if they can bump up spirits ai a bit. Make it like the pups blm head. I would also like to have better acc and attack for the avatars. Or a Enspell for them.

[Pai Pai Master]

So I haven't been paying attention...someone break it down for me. SMN/SCH is very workable now, it seems? But not for main-healing?

[MrMageo]

I beleive SMN/SCH gets all -na spells except stona, does not get erase, nor curaga

However Carby has a cruaga, and garuda has whispering wind so, Id say yes it is quite possible to main heal.

[Omniblast]

So I haven't been paying attention...someone break it down for me. SMN/SCH is very workable now, it seems? But not for main-healing?

For me, with YY Robe, Sanction or Sigil, and Auto Refresh, if I had SCH leveled up to use Sublimation, I could technically get 7 mp per tick, which is about 3 ticks better than without.

Every 5 minutes you can get 450 mp. It really negates a lot of the negative effects that you get without subbing it. Regen II works pretty good in place of Cure III if your using that to recover your lost HP from Sublimation. Stone Skin works good too, however you can only get that from Earthen Ward and not from SCH sub.

[Truece]

Regen II works pretty good in place of Cure III if your using that to recover your lost HP from Sublimation.

Just to point it out, Sublimation causes 2HP loss per tick. Regen I is more than sufficient to offset the HP loss, thus even greater returns on Sublimation :)

[Sabaron]

So I haven't been paying attention...someone break it down for me. SMN/SCH is very workable now, it seems? But not for main-healing?

I beleive SMN/SCH gets all -na spells except stona, does not get erase, nor curaga

SMN/SCH is perfectly viable for main healing with the new Addendum Stratagem. It is only lacking Reraise and Erase. I would like to point out that while SMN does not have Stona proper, that Leviathan's Spring Water will remove Petrification and Garuda's Hastega can remove weaker Slow effects. You can take a chance on Spring Water removing the stronger ones (like Spider Web).

In fact, because of Spring Water and Hastega, SMN/SCH is actually preferable to WHM in some camps b/c WHM can only use Divine Veil every 10 minutes. Spring Water can be used once per minute or less and is also a Curaga effect. I'm envisioning as a very good example, the Caedarva Imp Camps. Spring Water can mass-remove Silence once/minute and if the SMN needs to fix more than that (which is occasionally necessary), Silena will suffice.

FYI: Summoner's Curagas:

Carbuncle's Healing Ruby II: 28+Level*4 = 328HP (@75) for 124MP [2.64hp/mp]
Leviathan's Spring Water: 47+Level*3 = 272HP (@75) for 99MP [2.74hp/mp] AND Status cures
Garuda's Whispering Wind: 16+Level*2.5 = 171HP (@75) for 119MP [1.44hp/mp]

So SMN gets Curaga II equivalent once a minute which is more than adequate.

[Karinya]

Why does whispering wind cost MORE than spring water and almost as much as HR2? That makes no sense.

Lower its cost to about 65-70 MP and maybe it would see some use... I guess that means it can go on the list of "good concept, bad cost effectiveness" with frost and lightning armors and crimson howl. (Did rolling thunder escape that list recently?)

[MrMageo]

Yes im still curious to know if rolling thunder is affected by this new update to enspells or is it just enspells themselves. (/sch for the Enhancing boost of course).

[Pai Pai Master]

Sweet. I'm gonna level SCH right away then. Thanks.

[Sabaron]

I have to fix an error I made earlier...
In fact, because of Spring Water and Hastega, SMN/SCH is actually preferable to WHM in some camps b/c WHM can only use Divine Veil every 10 minutes. Spring Water can be used once per minute or less and is also a Curaga effect. I'm envisioning as a very good example, the Caedarva Imp Camps. Spring Water can mass-remove Silence once/minute and if the SMN needs to fix more than that (which is occasionally necessary), Silena will suffice.

Spring Water costs 99MP...

Silena costs 24MP

Therefore, in order for Spring Water to be MP efficient as a mass-cure, you need to have at least 4 people that need to have debuffs removed or a few that need some curing. Since this is usually the case anyway with AoE debuff camps, it shouldn't be an issue but I just wanted to mention it. The efficiency rate also varies depending on which effect you're trying to remove.

Another wonderful thing about SMN is the "He did it." enmity control they have... I didn't just cure 4 people for 380HP, Leviathan did... go kill him... This makes it easier for SMNs to toss around giant -ga cures than other mages.

[Kitalrez]

You're making the assumption that you can find a summoner high enough to do imps who wants to main heal, and a second assumption that this particular summoner hasn't already grabbed 3 of his buddies to steal your imps out from under you. Heck, if you find 5 other SMNs you can kill soulflayers without really breaking a sweat... exp could be better, but the loot is great.

[Gobo]

Not personal testing, but apparently Rolling Thunder is decent now, with hits procing at ~12 damage a swing. Dunno if skill effects damage or if its based off of Ramuh's hidden stats.

[Malacite]

Why does whispering wind cost MORE than spring water and almost as much as HR2? That makes no sense.



And you people question me when I say SMN is broken >_>

[Sabaron]

Why does whispering wind cost MORE than spring water and almost as much as HR2? That makes no sense.

It does make sense if you think about it from the right perspective. Everyone knows that Garuda is the favorite tank pet. Whispering Wind allows Garuda to heal herself, thus extending her tanking ability. She also has mitigation capabilities through Aerial Armor. In this way, Whispering Wind is more of a perk than her discipline and therefore less efficient than her comrades.

[Kitalrez]

To go off of Sabaron here, the healing is scalable in terms of what you use the avatar for. Garuda is to put it simply a damage avatar. She has buffs, but they're limited to Hastega and Aerial Armor. She has no debuffs at all, though silence would probably have been a good fit for her.

Looking at Leviathan, he hits softer than Garuda, and his BPs will do less damage. The upside is that he hits way more often. He also has some good debuffs. He's the only avatar with Gravity and his Slowga is nice, too. He's more of a support avatar. You won't be using Spring Water much to keep him in the game, as you would with Garuda's Whispering Wind. He won't be tanking nearly as much, or doing much outside of building TP for a nice Tail Whip and Slowga combo. You won't really chain Spinning Dive much unless you're going after something that's hard to hit in the first place, like Jormungand.

Now, think instead on Garuda: Pred Claws > Whispering Wind > Pred Claws > Whispering Wind... The best use of Garuda is to DD and keep herself healed up as tanker. If Whispering Wind was cheap enough you could conceivably do this strategy over a length of any time, people would be screaming bloody murder about needing to nerf SMN. Garuda has been balanced so that the costs are just prohibitive enough you won't try using her as a pocket DMG PLD.

[Eiyoko]

Another thing to keep in mind about Blood Pact buffs is that most all of them are AoE, hence the high cost.