New Rolls

[Callisto]

I'll be getting the new rolls and testing them out as soon as update finishes today, but here's the initial .dat mining info on BG:

Initial info from IRC -
Item file format has been changed again it looks like, so mining will be slow.
Someone found what looks like descriptions of the new SCH spell and COR rolls
(SCH spell?) - Magic accuracy for spells of the same element as the current weather is increased.
(SCH roll?) - "Conserve MP" effect is enhanced.
(DNC roll?) - HP are gradually restored.

So....

1) Sweet.
2) Incredibly. Fucking. Weak.

I have no clue how to test Conserve MP values, but I'll try to get the HP/tick info as soon as possible, hopefully I can coax my 75 DNC LSmate to stand there and let me test it on her.

[Murphie]

My taru always has new rolls. His rolanberry pie diet is to blame.

HP are gradually restored sounds about as useless as I don't know what.

[Selphiie The Enchantress]

Oh i hope DNC roll isn't regen....thats such an epic fail

Kitten and I were hoping for it to be Haste roll :/

Ahh well...

[Jonastb]

Well, since it looks like they are capping Haste, it doesn't really surprise me. Also, Dancer's only have 1 Haste ability while they have many cure abilities, so it being an HP regen kind of fits.

[Olorin401]

That Magic Acc+ roll is made of win.. Will be interesting to see the effect difference for SCH vs. other jobs.

[Callisto]

Same, I was gearing up to test the Haste %'s and whatnot, not that I'm not happy with my rolls already, but I was really hoping for Haste or Regain, a bit of a letdown. That said, the SCH buffs are enough to keep me in a good mood about this update, despite the lack of RDM lovin'.
______________________________
My taru always has new rolls. His rolanberry pie diet is to blame.

HP are gradually restored sounds about as useless as I don't know what.

Keep on those pies, dragons don't like food that's all bones.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

I called Conserve MP on SCH Roll even before they got the trait.

But Dancer's Roll... just ugh. Weak. We didn't need a regen, we need HASTE.

That Magic Acc+ roll is made of win.. Will be interesting to see the effect difference for SCH vs. other jobs.

Read again, SCH Roll is Conserve MP.

We already have M Acc+ Roll, it was RDM's Warlock Roll.

[Dymlos]

Regen? Well that's another roll I'm never going to fucking use unless it's during rest HP time.

[Selphiie The Enchantress]

/sigh HHP or Regen roll, Scholar could do AOE Regen.

The DNC roll is really disappointing :/

[Celeal]

Well, lets wait and see what is the rate of HP regen in DNC roll ^^;

[Dymlos]

Well, lets wait and see what is the rate of HP regen in DNC roll ^^;

It's still going to be garbage no matter what the rate is. COR has better rolls to use for the DD.

[Selphiie The Enchantress]

It may take some burden off the healers, but still :/ doesn't look like something that would replace a better front line COR roll. Unless its something epic like 20HP/tick :eek:

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Well, lets wait and see what is the rate of HP regen in DNC roll ^^;

It could be the most godly regen ever, its still a vendor trash buff.

This was like when SE added Paeon V.

Nice? Sure.

Needed? Absolutely not.

[Karinya]

It may take some burden off the healers, but still :/ doesn't look like something that would replace a better front line COR roll. Unless its something epic like 20HP/tick :eek:

Heck, if it's that good a regen, the COR and DNC could *be* the healers. (Especially if the other roll is Samurai to boost the DNC's TP gain.) Then you could have a party where literally every single member was a DD. It's the natural conclusion of the TAU trend.

I do wonder, though, how anyone can be dat mining an update that isn't even available for download yet. Do they have secret agents inside SE or something? Or maybe they're just blowing smoke and the actual dancer's roll is something else...

[Dymlos]

I do wonder, though, how anyone can be dat mining an update that isn't even available for download yet. Do they have secret agents inside SE or something? Or maybe they're just blowing smoke and the actual dancer's roll is something else...

If you delete a file on purpose it forces you to update to fix the problem. That's how they're .dat mining it. Least that's what I hear on BG.

[Callisto]

Ok, files downloading, LS bank loan request in, hopefully I can have some #'s for you guys tonight. I also thought of how to test SCH roll, but fuggin A balls it'll take several hours at the very least :thumbsup:

[Balfree]

Remember that SE invisoned DNC to be a frontline healer.

It makes all sense that it's Regen, but it sucks nonetheless.

[Callisto]

If anything it will allow for some odd party setups if it's very potent, while still allowing great XP, like COR DNC x1-2 BRD DD x2-3, where the DNC's could easily main heal with the combination of SAM roll + DNC roll, while still having reasonable melee output, and the DDs will still have normal BRD buffs to keep mowing through the mobs.

[Zempten]

If (and I mean a BIG BIG IF) the HP regen is something absurd . . . . I might like it ^ ^

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

DNC Roll (w/o DNC)
Lucky #3, Unlucky #7

I - 3 a tick
II - 4 a tick
V - 5 HP a tick
VII - 1 a tick
VIII - 7 HP a tick
X - 8 HP a tick
XI - 14 HP a tick

All I got so far.

Chayaya in Al'Zhabi has them.... come with about 130k and prepare to cry for your wallet again.

[Dymlos]

Do you honestly think spending 65k is worth for lolRegen roll? I know it's always best (and smart) to have all your dice, but I wonder if it's even worth it. I don't see ever using those dice. Ever.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Do you honestly think spending 130k is worth for lolRegen roll? I know it's always best (and smart) to have all your dice, but I wonder if it's even worth it. I don't see ever using those dice. Ever.

I meant both new dice, hence the "them."

[Sevv]

I meant both new dice, hence the "them."

Have your tested out the SCH roll yet?

[Callisto]

LSmate is holding scrolls for me...I started update at 3:30, it's now 9:20 and it says I still have 74 minutes left @ 83%...

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

I have SCH Roll, but I've not really tested it at this time. I didn't have a sub for MP on when I was logged onto kitten

[Malacite]

I called Conserve MP on SCH Roll even before they got the trait.


Yeah right after I did :P


Epic fail on DNC roll though. That better be one damned powerful Regen...


EDIT: So at best it's a Regen 2 without a DNC? Way to go SE.

God damn I was so sure it would be haste or regain (you know something we can use)

[Callisto]

DNC Roll (w/o DNC)
Lucky #3, Unlucky #7

I - 3 a tick
II - 4 a tick
V - 5 HP a tick
VII - 1 a tick
VIII - 7 HP a tick
X - 8 HP a tick
XI - 14 HP a tick

All I got so far.

Chayaya in Al'Zhabi has them.... come with about 130k and prepare to cry for your wallet again.

Lucky III - 11/tick
IV - 4/tick
VI - 6/tick
IX - 8/tick

[Karinya]

So rolls that you would normally want to keep average about 9/tick with no dancer. If the party is actually taking aoe damage, that's a free no-enmity curaga every 30 seconds, or about 2 minutes to fully recover from a thundaga III with no actual heals... over the 5 minute course of the buff each party member would recover about 700-1400 HP, unless they max out before then. I wonder how much stronger it is if there *is* a dancer in the party.

Unfortunately there isn't much content that rewards making your party able to live longer, rather than killing faster; but if you *do* want to help your party live longer against aoe damage, this looks pretty decent.

[Celeal]

If there is a DNC + COR in the party, the DNC normally would use Quicksteps (evasion down) + Box Steps (defense down) to debuff the mob too. If DNC's roll gives Haste, it will be .... too god-like powerful, jmho.

Imagine Drain Samba III + DNC roll --- with that rate of HP recovery, I think some DD can safely use /WAR instead of /NIN or /SAM.

Added:
DNC/SAM + COR/DNC + BRD/NIN + DDx3 == *MP free* meritpo ^^?

[Malacite]

No one is going to want this over Fighter's/Samurai/Rogue's/Chaos/Hunter's Roll in EXP.

[Menelaus]

This Roll would probably be more usefull if you could stamp out previous rolls sooner. Making it possible to roll a quick regen while the puller is out or in the case of emergency healing required.

[Callisto]

At any rate, I'll try to test SCH roll this week, if anyone else has time to you're going to need a /mage sub and a shitload of free time. Your goal is basically to cast a bunch of spells and see how often Conserve MP activates, and calculate the % from there, I'd think you'd need a sample size of at least 500-1k casts for each roll both with and without a SCH.

I can hopefully get my DNC friend to help my cause and do campaign battles with me tonight and get the w/ DNC #'s after limbus if you guys won't have time.

[Zempten]

Yea, I'm disappointed in DNC's roll - not that I didn't see it comming but I guess hoping for like 50HP/tick would be WAYYYY too good to be true.

[Callisto]

Updated ffxiclo and BGWiki w/ what we have so far, do I need to be on the list of contributors to our wiki here or can I go ahead and plop that info in?

Edit: Ohshit nevermind, our wiki blocked by work filters lol, BBQ if you can do the honors...

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

I'm on COR duty with DiV's Wiki, just finally starting to be able to be oriented with Wiki duties here and learning the ropes on it. If you want to pass me the data along later, I'll put it in the drafts I'm compiling for the wiki. I'll credit those who bring me the data.

Additionally, since both BG and FFXI fail to have complete Phantom Roll data, it would be wonderful if could all find out data on the following:

Beast Roll
Puppet Roll
Warlock's Roll
Magus Roll

These are a bit more tricky for data. My hunch is that Beast and Puppet Rolls are comprable to thier Chaos and Hunter's Roll counterparts, but I've yet to see proof of it.

Note: If the others who've done the other COR guides here could get with me, such as Karinya, I need permission on whether or to use said guides before I move ahead and wikify them. My plan at present, when all permissions are granted, is likely to merge comprable data, make charts from it so the data from the guides is more comprehensive and less separated. Karinya and Spider-Dan's information would be such an example.

[Callisto]

Magus Roll should be easy to test in PVP w/ 2 CORs and a BLU using QD damage, the hardest part is finding a 2nd COR lol.

Edit: Or if you can think of a mob with a magical attack that always does the same amount of damage...I can't off the top of my head.

Shoot first to find base QD damage, then repeat with different values of BLU roll, solve damage formula backwards for MDB.

as far as the other 3, fucked if I could tell you a good way to find any of those without a parser set to record pet data, and Magic Accuracy has always been near-impossible to test.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Well, I think if Beast Roll could be proven to be comprable to Chaos, then it would be a given what the data for Puppet Roll was or vice versa.

If.

Its a big if.

[Callisto]

The hard part would be finding the pet's Attack to begin with, it'd be relatively easy from there. Or not. We haven't even re-established player pDIF and such, doing it for pets would be impossible lol...

Pet Acc should be relatively easy to discern w/ a parser, a mob w/ known Evasion, and a good sample size so Puppet Roll isn't that bad, then from the increases in hit rate % you should be able to get reasonably close to deducing what the increase in Acc is...but only getting 5-6 minutes a pop on each roll makes it difficult to get large sample sizes for each roll. :/

I'd say try it on Puppet first, and if it correlates to Hunter's correctly we take a leap of faith and say Beast = Chaos.

[Malacite]

DNC roll would have been fine, if it was a low level roll. But in the 60's? WTF SE. Why not haste/attack speed/regain?

Sure it fits the DNC's primary roll (healer) but it doesn't directly help it as all the other rolls do.

[Callisto]

KK, in with a DNC, about to start testing!
______________________________
I - 6/tick
II - 7/tick
III - 14/tcck
IV - 7/tick
V - 8/tick
VI - 9/tick
VII - 4/tick
VIII - 10/tick
IX - 11/tick
X - 11/tick
XI - 17/tick

So +3 to every value...going to try and get Magus' done tomorrow...

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

DNC roll would have been fine, if it was a low level roll. But in the 60's? WTF SE. Why not haste/attack speed/regain?

Haste would have been logical, there is no trait about DNC that screams "regain," though, so giving us that when WE ALREADY HAVE SAMURAI ROLL would be stupidly broken. Give Regain to a mage not called RDM or SCH, as they have enough going for them now.

Additionally, let's look at what DNC Roll does for COR:


CORs have a five minute duration on DNC's Roll at no MP cost, which can be extended further if you merit Winning Streak. COR just got itself something that can be used in Tank PTs in addtion to Gallant's Roll- not even SCH, WHM or BRD can beat that Regen. COR just wins on duration alone.
Increases a COR's soloablity by a notable margin.

[Callisto]

Haste would have been logical, there is no trait about DNC that screams "regain," though, so giving us that when WE ALREADY HAVE SAMURAI ROLL would be stupidly broken. Give Regain to a mage not called RDM or SCH, as they have enough going for them now.

Additionally, let's look at what DNC Roll does for COR:


CORs have a five minute duration on DNC's Roll at no MP cost, which can be extended further if you merit Winning Streak. COR just got itself something that can be used in Tank PTs in addtion to Gallant's Roll- not even SCH, WHM or BRD can beat that Regen. COR just wins on duration alone.
Increases a COR's soloablity by a notable margin.

I agree with the 2nd point, it's fantastic in Campaign. However the duration/PR cooldown kind of hamper it as well in terms of using it during downtime the way you'd use Paeon, since it's going to be at least 2 minutes before you can get back to your normal roll rotation.

Side note: Gallant's Roll sucks. :cry:

[Malacite]

I can see it being somewhat useful at end game, piled on top of Double Paeon and Regen III (with full merits and relic hat).


That'd give a PLD...

Paeon V = 8 (assuming +1 harp and max skill) (16 with SV)
Paeon IV = 7 (14 with SV)
Regen III = 28 (Merits + Relic)
DNC Roll = 17 (assuming DNC + an XI) (also assuming they even stack)
Knights of Round? (I heard it's around 20, but this probably won't stack)

So altogether a PLD could in theory gain 75 HP/tic. Hory ****!

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

I agree with the 2nd point, it's fantastic in Campaign. However the duration/PR cooldown kind of hamper it as well in terms of using it during downtime the way you'd use Paeon, since it's going to be at least 2 minutes before you can get back to your normal roll rotation.

Depends on the situation and the number or rolls needed for a buff cycle. Some PTs are a four buff cycle, some are three and others are two. The smaller or more specialized the group is, the lower the cycle and likely less of a need to do a full four buff rotation. The larger and more diverse a PT gets, its more likely you'll be doing a four buff cycle.

Side note: Gallant's Roll sucks.

Its actually quite good now as of the August '07 update, its just still extemely situational. I've done tanking PTs with it before, 25-33% or damage being reflected back is not that shabby. I remember a PLD taking 200 a shot from Kaiser Behemoths in Limbus. He went from taking 200 a hit to 150ish with 45-50 points of damage reflected.

Saying Gallant's Roll sucks is like saying Carols or Barspells suck, they don't suck at all, they're just not always useful.

[Callisto]

It's the resist rate that has always been my issue, every once in awhile it'll have a really nice proc, but more often than not PLD gets hit for 100 and spikes reflect 3, I'd rather just give him Evoker's or something.