Split out of the main 3/10 patch thread. There's a lot of SCH-specific changes - starting with AF and their own Genkai 5, but it goes on from there.

New spell: Klimaform (SCH Lv.46)
A quick google suggests that this is a German word relating to climate. Maybe something to improve the chances of weather effects going off?
The following changes have been made to the scholar job:
- The maximum number of charges for the job ability “Stratagems” has been adjusted.
Lv. 10: 1 charge
Lv. 30: 2 charges
Lv. 50: 3 charges
Lv. 70: 4 charges

- The time required to regain one charge now varies depending on the maximum number of possible charges.
Maximum charges: 1 → Time to regain 1 charge: 4 minutes
Maximum charges: 2 → Time to regain 1 charge: 2 minutes
Maximum charges: 3 → Time to regain 1 charge: 1 minute 20 seconds
Maximum charges: 4 → Time to regain 1 charge: 1 minute
Wow. That's an enormous buff right there. From 30+ you can use TWICE as many stratagems as before, and it just gets better at 50 and 70.

Even /SCH can now get two charges and recharge every 2 minutes.
- The following scholar job abilities have been introduced:
Sublimation (Lv.35)
Stores MP while reducing HP. The effect ends once the MP limit is reached, HP is too low, or you are attacked. Stored MP is gained when the ability is reactivated.
*Your character’s HP will slowly decrease while storing MP and you will be unable to enter healing mode or log out while this ability is in effect.
I'm not quite sure what this means. A slow-motion convert? I guess we'll have to try it out and see. Sounds useful though. And subbable.
Addendum: White (Lv.10)
Allows access to additional White Magic spells while using Light Arts.

Addendum: Black (Lv.30)
Allows access to additional Black Magic spells while using Dark Arts.

- Scholars will now be able to cast additional white and black magic spells while using the new job abilities “Addendum: White” and “Addendum: Black”.
These additional spells will be added to a scholar’s magic lists after being acquired, but will only be selectable when under the effect of “Addendum: White” or “Addendum: Black”.
Which spells this applies to should be listed on the scrolls now (please post in this thread once DAT miners have a revised item list). One of the current known issues is that they accidentally didn't add it to the scrolls for Reraise, Raise II, Reraise II and Sleep II - all of which should now be SCH usable with the right addendum up. (Therefore, presumably, so is Sleep I.) Reraise is 40, Raise II 70, Reraise II 75 and Sleep II 65.

The low level of addendum:white suggests that slow and paralyze may be included in it - so you can have them regardless of SJ.

It's interesting that these are abilities - it suggests that they may have recasts longer than a minute so you can't activate them every time you change arts (otherwise they could have just made them traits). This will definitely make SCH more complex, but also more powerful.
- Scholars have gained the job trait “Conserve MP.”
Regardless of subjob. Awesome. Between that and addenda, I think SCH subjob choices just got shaken up in a big way, as many of the abilities SCH formerly chose their subjob to get may be available from their main.
- Spells cast during the effect of the job abilities “Accession” or “Manifestation” will now only cost double the MP instead of triple.
Sweet. Especially when you can use those so much more often - by the time you get those at all, your stratagem charge time will already be down to 2 min.
- The casting time, recast time, and duration of the following spells have been adjusted:
Sandstorm/Rainstorm/Windstorm/Firestorm/Hailstorm/Thunderstorm/Voidstorm/Aurorastorm
For the better, one hopes. I haven't gotten these yet but reportedly the proc rate is pretty sad for the cost and time invested.
- “Light Arts” will now also increase the enfeebling magic skill.
Good for slow, paralyze and silence, if you're /WHM or /RDM or they're included in Addendum: White.
- Scholar job abilities now have unique status icons.http://www.playonline.com/pcd/update/ff11us/20080311cPxl31/04.jpg
Separate icons for LA and DA, nice. Wonder if stratagems and addenda will have their own icons too...

All in all, I think this is the biggest single-update buff I've seen to any job, ever (although not quite as big as the entire history of PUP improvements from introduction to the present.)

If anyone finds (through DAT mining or just being one of the first people to log on) the stats of SCH AF, or scrolls with SCH/Addendum levels listed on them, please post them in this thread or in another thread in the Scholar forum.

Ok this is totally awesome, I really cant wait to log in now :3 I'm wondering if adding enfeebling magic to LA means the enfeebs are split up? like dark enfeebles under DA and Light enfeebles under LA one can only hope!!! I just dinged 55 on my SCH before we got disconnected so I get to see the majority of the new abilities and spells in use /cheer!!

Wow. Big, big changes. But seriously, SCH needed it badly. Playing SCH pre-update felt like playing RDM without the enfeebling tools.


Icemage

So, by 'store MP', I assume they mean recover? Basically, Sublimation would be like a CoT (Convert-over-time)? Also, any guesses on the recast of this particular job ability? 10-minutes, perhaps?

Edit

- The following scholar job abilities have been introduced:
Sublimation (Lv.35)
Stores MP while reducing HP. The effect ends once the MP limit is reached, HP is too low, or you are attacked. Stored MP is gained when the ability is reactivated.
*Your character’s HP will slowly decrease while storing MP and you will be unable to enter healing mode or log out while this ability is in effect.

I wonder if they meant "stored MP is gained when the ability is deactivated?

This is such a huge job buff but like Icemage said sch really did need some help.

I'm wondering if adding enfeebling magic to LA means the enfeebs are split up? like dark enfeebles under DA and Light enfeebles under LA one can only hope!!!

I'm guessing it's going to work exactly as it did before but now whichever art is up is only going to effect cast/recast time and cost on enfeebles instead that and accuracy aswell.


Even /SCH can now get two charges and recharge every 2 minutes.


I hope so but the initial release made a big deal of saying only one charge from sub and the update notes didn't specifically state that it applies to sub too.


Klimaform to me sounds like it might take zone weather and apply it to a party member. Terraform - make like the earth, Klimaform - make like the climate? Perhaps it will be cheaper than the storm spells or extra duration or allow double strength weather or something?

I really want to try out Sublimation, something that helps me gain mp that I can use at the start of my haste cycle where I can't rest usefully anyway sound great. Also the icon changes are nice >< I'm clumsy on bad days so a quick visual confirmation of what arts I have up will be really helpful.

Not to be a whiner but this huge buff to sch (and the enspell damage change) makes me glad my whm is already 75 and being able to AoE status remove once a minute at high level does make Divine Veil look really crappy.

Now that SCH got a huge boost I really hope people dont start jumping on the SCH bandwagon =( that would severely kill me since I loved SCH even before the update and I fetl special lol being the only SCH in my ls..... now I wont feel so special anymore if everyone lvls it... T-T

Before they got the the SCH-specific adjustments, they also mentioned that weapon-enhancing spells are now determined by the caster and not the people recieving them.

So SCH/RDM is now even better than ever.

So SCH/RDM is now even better than ever.

Yeah I was set on SCH/RDM before I even decided to lvl the job, now I love it and I dont think I'd ever change it even if SCH does get stoneskin and blink :3 I really hope the new mp regen ability doesn't have like a 15 minute recast I hope they make it small like 10 minutes same as convert.

Based on what they say. I think Sublimation is going to work like the following

*Activate Sublimation
*Forced to stand up
You'd probably be curing/nuking/whatever during this process since your technically taking DMG. I guess all those people before that didn't learn to /heal between pulls and whatnot will get a easy break.
*Sublimation ends
*Regain enough HP to reuse Sublimation
Sounds like they purposely set a limit so you can't kill yourself by using Sublimation
*Ativate Sublimation and recieve MP stored in say a imaginary battery during your initial activation of Sublimation and when it ended.

At least thats what I feel like it means

As far as further BLM spells . . .I'm guessing at best they'll give SCH the regular -ga spells . . maybe ancient spells if we're lucky >.> Can dream right? ^ ^

I'm more interested to see if SCH's extra black magic spells will include escape, warp, tractor, dispel (it's not a BLM spell but it is a black magic spell), sleep, bind, gravity (see dispel), poison... there's lots of black magic besides nukes (which sch can already kind of imitate with manifestation and ebullience). Maybe even stun, who knows.

I'm more interested to see if SCH's extra black magic spells will include escape, warp, tractor, dispel (it's not a BLM spell but it is a black magic spell), sleep, bind, gravity (see dispel), poison... there's lots of black magic besides nukes (which sch can already kind of imitate with manifestation and ebullience). Maybe even stun, who knows.

Yeah I agree I cant wait till my update is done and I can log in and see all the new goodies my SCH has :3 I just dinged 55 right before the update so once I get my new macro's in control and all my new spells setup I'm ready to pt my way to 75! as /RDM of course!

Well I was just taking some spells off the top of my heads that were BLM and pre-50. Warp and stuff like that sounds good though ^ ^

Ok I'm just going to ask again but does anyone know the stats on the SCH af yet? if you do can you please post them for me? ^o^

Someone on Blue Gartr Posted this stuff.I'm just copying and pasting the SCH section

{Rare}{EX} Scholar's gown
Body
DEF:38 MND+1 INT+1 MP+13 Enhances "Dark Arts" effect
Lv.58 SCH

{Rare}{EX} Scholar's bracers
Hands
DEF:13 MND+3 MP+15 Enmity-2 Spell interruption rate down 20%
Lv.52 SCH

{Rare}{EX} Scholar's loafers
Feet
DEF:10 MP+15 Enmity-2 Grimoire: Reduces spellcasting time
Lv.54 SCH

{Rare}{EX} Scholar's mortarboard
Head
DEF:15 INT+4 MP+15 Enhances "Sublimation" effect
Lv.60 SCH

{Rare}{EX} Scholar's pants
Legs
DEF:27 MP+20 Enmity-1 Enhances "Light Arts" effect
Lv.56 SCH

Here is the link Order of the Blue Gartr &bull; View topic - Mar 11, 2008 data mining thread (http://www.bluegartrls.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=30936&start=30)

Sublimation is 2 HP drain per tick(at level 37), restores an equal amount of HP lost to MP. 25 sec recast, have to use the JA again to cancel it.

WHM addendum spells:

All -nas including Stona
Erase
RR 1 and II
Raise II

BLM Addendum spells:

Tier IV nukes
Sleep I and II
Dispel

No SS, blink, Gravity or Haste

Addendum are Stratagems, but unlike the others, they have a permanent effect.

EDIT: SCH got added to the Glamor Jupon. Hurray!

Wait... do I have to have learned the Tier IV as BLM to use it as SCH or can I just use a scroll while Addendum is active and learn it that way? Would be kinda lame if we had to level BLM just to learn the spell >.>;

SCH got added to the Glamor Jupon. Hurray!

Which would be great if the drop rate wasn't so shitty.

For real. Glamor Jupon can bite me.

Sublimation is 2 HP drain per tick(at level 37), restores an equal amount of HP lost to MP. 25 sec recast, have to use the JA again to cancel it.

Uhm....*drool*

I think S-E just gave some candies (Recalls) to WHM, then kicked the smiling WHM hard between the legs. ._.

Then the WHM could /SCH and keep smiling. . . . abit.

I don't think it's that bad for WHMs. If there's a WHMs, a SCH could always "transform" into a BLM with the new addendums. SCH seems like the job that can change to fit the situation. Or in terms of endgame, they could just be a part of the BLM PT and actually cure them if any AEs hit them like Huriccane Wing or something. Now with the changes to weather spells as well . . .it looks to be a good spot for them to be in an established LS with set WHMs and BLMs...etc. As far as regular exping is concerned . .. I have a feeling that they will be split between the BLM manaburns and main healers in current EXP PTs.
______________________________
Wait... do I have to have learned the Tier IV as BLM to use it as SCH or can I just use a scroll while Addendum is active and learn it that way? Would be kinda lame if we had to level BLM just to learn the spell >.>;


I don't think so. The Scrolls should have SCH's names on it. I think the only reason why they mentioned a few on the update was b/c the forgot to put their jobs on it.

I think S-E just gave some candies (Recalls) to WHM, then kicked the smiling WHM hard between the legs. ._.
Say what?

Sublimation is the best thing since sliced bread for White Mage. White Mages can basically keep it on 24/7 and never have to worry about it unless they have a pressing need to rest.

Auto-Regen cancels half of the damage, and it now makes Medicine Ring extremely viable (+10 cure potency for a ring slot? Where do I sign up?!).


Icemage

Then the WHM could /SCH and keep smiling. . . . abit.
WHM pretty much has to use /SCH now. Unless it's a special fight needing ES Sleepga or in places where Escape can save a party, /SCH pretty much rules. Even in "keep running" zones, /SMN no longer have the edge for Auto Refresh. ._.


I don't think it's that bad for WHMs. If there's a WHMs, a SCH could always "transform" into a BLM with the new addendums.
I don't think SCH would run WHM (or BLM) out of the endgame scene, but in exp situations, BLM is already unappreciated--it's unlikely a party will grab a SCH to be the new BLM.

Basically, it's more competition for the healer spot, especially in exp parties. It can be argued that /WHM is able to fix too many status effects already, now SCH main can completely match WHM plus able to toss out AoE -na every minute. First Regen II, now Reraise II, and Raise II, Stona, and Erase--all further closing the gap between the two--a gap which should exist, BTW.


* * *

The new additions also changed the dynamics of support job choices for SCH. Now, /WHM looks pretty unappealing beyond the Stratagem-free Curaga (if the party even needs it), /RDM is only good for Stoneskin and Blink (if those are not already native) beyond MAB I, and /BLM all of sudden looking like a champ for nothing more than MAB II.

The idea of SCH changes its role as it changes support job is getting tossed out of the window. Not a huge issue, I guess, but I rather like the idea that selecting the proper support job makes a critical difference.

* * *

Giving Tier IV nukes to SCH like that is little too much, IMO. Should've made it into a Stratagem to "upgrade" next nuke one level instead.

The new additions also changed the dynamics of support job choices for SCH. Now, /WHM looks pretty unappealing beyond the Stratagem-free Curaga (if the party even needs it), /RDM is only good for Stoneskin and Blink (if those are not already native) beyond MAB I, and /BLM all of sudden looking like a champ for nothing more than MAB II.

The idea of SCH changes its role as it changes support job is getting tossed out of the window. Not a huge issue, I guess, but I rather like the idea that selecting the proper support job makes a critical difference.


All right! Since no other subs really shine for SCH, we can join the club and just go /NIN ^^

While I agree that it is indeed more competition for the "main healer" spot. I don't mind it. If there is a situation where we have extra WHMs and SCHs, there are ways to move SCHs around while WHMs are stuck with their usually duties. Not to mention, why was it that RDMs or SMNs were pushed into a "main healer" scenario in the first place?

Competition has always been around for spots. Welcome WHMs to it.
______________________________
All right! Since no other subs really shine for SCH, we can join the club and just go /NIN ^^

You'd be better of subbing BRD instead imo.

Sublimation is the best thing since sliced bread for White Mage. White Mages can basically keep it on 24/7 and never have to worry about it unless they have a pressing need to rest.

It really is uber, sublimation + nobles (or other refresh body) = mp free rdm refresh.

I am slightly agreeing with Itazura only because whm is now the only back line mp dependant main healer (don't mention blu please) that doesn't get some sort of self mp recovery ability by level 40 but I think thats kept in balance by scholars lack of haste and refresh.

The only thing that I begrudge a little is sch's ability to deal with AoE status removal a lot better than whm can now that strategms are being handed out so much more freely.

The only thing that I begrudge a little is sch's ability to deal with AoE status removal a lot better than whm can now that strategms are being handed out so much more freely.

I forsee SE splitting up Divine Seal and Divine Veil, and lowering the Recast of DV to 5 mins...

(and the /NIN comment above was obviously a joke. I think that this really allows /RDM to be the sub of choice for party buffing)

Just managed to get in game and try Sublimation out as 75 whm/sch.

While it's active I lose 1hp/tick and no mp regained. Once I turn it off I get all the mp stored up from while I had sublimation on in one go so it's not a straight refresh which is what I got from reading the update.

Recast to flip it on or off is 30 seconds.

Edit: For DV, here's hoping.

Have you found a cap on the amount of MP it will restore? I would test it out for myself, if only the download would finish ><

While it may be wishful thinking, I can see leaving it up indefinitely. Then, when MP is seriously low, deactivate it and BAM! Hundreds of MP could potentially be restored!

I was in Campaign when I logged out so just moving then I will try a few more things.

I can confirm that I have 2 strategm charges so 2 minute recharge from sub *glee*

I just logged in and have been running around as SCH, where are Addendum Black and White? I don't see them.

I just logged in and have been running around as SCH, where are Addendum Black and White? I don't see them.


It's in Strategms

Addenda are stratagems. Once activated they change your arts icon to an addendum icon, which has the arts effect plus allowing you to cast addendum spells. They are removed by the things that normally remove arts effects: dying, zoning, logging out, or activating the opposite art.

I haven't tested yet how they interact with Tabula Rasa (other than, presumably, you can activate them for free, because they're stratagems).

This has interesting implications for SCH playstyle, IMO. Shifting back and forth between arts will make addendum use rather costly, but if you stay in one art you can keep the addendum on indefinitely, nearly for free. So there's now (at least) 3 distinct ways to play SCH, in addition to subjobs: change arts freely (but probably don't use addenda much since you'll lose them quickly), stay mostly in Light with addendum on, or stay mostly in Dark with addendum on. Which of those you'll want will probably depend on the situation and party setup.

No Blink or Stoneskin.......

I feel like Charlie Brown when Lucy yanks away the football......

I think that's good. If you want blink or stoneskin, you can still get them through subjob. What SCH *did* get by addenda is already amazing; what they didn't get was carefully chosen to (hopefully) keep them from being an ubermage.

Addendums:

Looks like, from the in game spell descriptions, that you only need scholar to the level you get the spell from via Addendum to be able to use it. The AH is down and I don't really want to spend 64k on a spell that's normally 5k from the AH to test this out. Once the AH is back however I will try it out, my rdm isn't 32+ so the only way I can get dispel is through scholar.


Sublimation:

There is a cap. My max hp was 1011, max mp was 906. Once my hp went down to 880 the drain effect stopped and my mp regained would not exceed 266mp even if I left it a good while after the drain effect stopped. Now even allowing for observational error (131hp lost should mean 262mp regained not 266 allowing for auto regen) that's slightly weird. I'm assuming the cut off point is probably time related because 262-266hp is nowhere near a simple fraction of my maximum hp and 266mp isn't a simple fraction of my max mp.


Edit: sorry but...Dispel *glee*

Sublimation cap is 25% of your max HP. Dunno how HP->MP gear effects (if does I assume Convert HP to MP will have no effect but, -HP will)

For all love SCH just got, what I wanted most isn't there. BLM/SCH is still screwed. Other mages have no problem subbing SCH of course.

Ah well. I think SCH will be my new main.

Sublimation cap is 25% of your max HP. Dunno how HP->MP gear effects (if does I assume Convert HP to MP will have no effect but, -HP will)

I'm a noob, hp_mp gear didn't occur to me >< thankyou. 266 is exactly 25% of my max hp without my hp->mp gear. I don't have any straight -hp gear in my setup anymore.

Testing on RDM75/SCH37, outside of Moghouse:
1. Letting Sublimation drain 28 HP, then stop: 30 MP recovered
2. Letting Sublimation drain 100 HP, then stop: 102 MP recovered
3. Letting Sublimation drain 100 HP, then stop: 102 MP recovered (took off HP->MP rings for this one).

Testing on SCH43/DNC1, outside of Moghouse:
1. Letting Sublimation drain 100 HP, then stop: 102 MP recovered
2. Letting Sublimation drain until auto-stopped: 138 HP lost (~25%), 140MP recovered

Testing on SCH43/THF21, East Sarutabaruta:
1. Light Arts on: 50 HP -> 52 MP (engaged but no aggression from Tiny Mandragora)
2. Dark Arts on: 50 HP -> 52 MP (after sleeping a Tiny Mandragora)

No regen or auto regen in any test; RDM testing was with my normal MP gear, SCH was naked.

Conclusion:
As support job, Sublimation -> Sublimation gives MP equal to amount of HP lost + 2. Same for SCH main, at Lv.43.

MP is gained when Sublimation (the effect) is deactivated by using Sublimation (the ability) the second time. Dark Arts or Light Arts apparently have no effect. Having a monster targeted has no effect on MP recovery. Having a monster targeting the SCH has no effect on MP recovery.

Forgot to test what does getting hit do. ._.

* * *

D/C'ing frequently right now; may take testing suggestions, but only if they don't need a lot of time. >_>p

I think I found the but on sublimation.

If you have sublimation up, casting refresh will have no effect.

Should also be noted that it doesn't wear off when you zone and you can have it going while you are on a chiken.

<_ < I actually had the subligar one night but sold it lmao. never thought I'd use it.

EDIT: WTF is wrong with Quote Selected? It's not working properly

Holy cow, it's true. >_<

Sublimation removes Refresh and prevents Refresh from being casted on the player.

Holy cow, it's true. >_<

Sublimation removes Refresh and prevents Refresh from being casted on the player.

Making SCH a BRD whore.

A lot of these updates seem to be alienating RDM a bit...

Also making RDM/SCH a lot less uber than it briefly looked like it might be (since Sublimation is at a subbable level).

Also making /SCH a little less compelling if you have a RDM in your party (although still fairly nice for its other benefits, depending on what your main is).

BLU/SCH could still kick serious ass though, since it probably *will* stack with their auto-refresh (and BLU has several drains and easily accessible auto-regen to make up for that HP loss).

Now I'm wondering about DRG/SCH... it could have basically infinite endurance even without sanction/sigil refresh.

Making SCH a BRD whore.

A lot of these updates seem to be alienating RDM a bit...

COR whore, too, since they can enhance Conserve MP and refresh, making us horde that MP away like mafakas.

Verified Sublimation doesn't affect Ballad, on both RDM75/SCH37 and SCH43/DNC1. No access to COR for Evoker's Roll, so someone else do that. =b

Ouch, I find Refresh is much more common than Ballad and Evokers.

Now I'm wondering about DRG/SCH... it could have basically infinite endurance even without sanction/sigil refresh.

Does /SCH give you a healing wyvern?

JTF

I was all for a boost to SCH, but this is a little to much. Tier IV Nukes, at more or less the same level as BLM? Add in Ebullience and your already nearing the damage of Burst II, with a much lower MP cost and cast time. Add in Sleep and Dispel, with Erase, -Nas, and Re/Raise II only a stratagem away, and the faster charge time...

I just think this is overdoing it. SCH/WHM can now out-damage a BLM/WHM without Merits. Now, if SCH got these abilities FROM merits, that would be a different story... But this...

The only real way I see to fix this is to make it cost one stratagem per spell, not to unlock a whole new set with unlimited use. Most jobs need to sub a certain job to get access to these spells, some of which are never even available subbed(IV, Raise II), but SCH can just get them with a simple stratagem switch.

Ouch, I find Refresh is much more common than Ballad and Evokers.

Well, considering Refresh doesn't stack with it, why would you use Sublimation if a RDM was already refreshing you? Plus, here's a mage RDM actually can put lower on a refresh cycle without getting barked at.

At any rate, not all jobs have compatible abilities, here's just another instance where that's the case. RDM can't stack their enfeebles with NINs, COR can't affect BLU's enfeebling magic. We already have several forms of refresh that stack.

--------------------------------------------------------

And I must say, this update opened up quite a few more subjobs for SCH to play with. With them no longer being fully dependant on /WHM, /BLM or /RDM, but now can also play with /DRK, /BLU, /SMN and /BRD a bit more easily.

Holy cow, it's true. >_<

Sublimation removes Refresh and prevents Refresh from being casted on the player.

"One less mouth to feed." :thumbsup:

Just to point out, it seems with the AF head, Sublimation would reach the same level of effect as Refresh. If I'm not mistaken, Refresh goes to a max of 150 MP. The max effect for Sublimation before AF is 136, stands to reason the hat would cap it out at 150, right?

Just to point out, it seems with the AF head, Sublimation would reach the same level of effect as Refresh. If I'm not mistaken, Refresh goes to a max of 150 MP. The max effect for Sublimation before AF is 136, stands to reason the hat would cap it out at 150, right?

Huh? I could be wrong but I think you're mistaken. Sublimation seems to be based off your maximum HP (Gobo's earlier post and my slightly botched one) so no hard cap if thats what you mean by max effect?

Edit: Itazuras post too, sorry Itazura

The max effect for Sublimation before AF is 136,

Seem my test results posted previously; 140 MP on naked SCH43/DNC1. The max is definitely not 136.

Seem my test results posted previously; 140 MP on naked SCH43/DNC1. The max is definitely not 136.

Caps at 136 every time for me, I'm level 50SCH/25RDM.

caps at 256 for me, 75 SCH

It is possible that its also affected by level and HP or some other factor

I'm confused about the new spells... I thought they only appeared if you had the Light arts active and used the new job ability. However when I change to my SCH (level 10) with a non-mage sub (THF) I have poisona, without using either Light Arts or the new ability.




edit*** never mind, you have in on your spell list, you just can't use it unless the ability is active.

Sublimation by default is 25% of your max HP. See SCH update thread.

hmmm everyone /sch and everyone /sam what a glorious world, finally i dont need to refresh haste whore out the wazoo, oh wait sch can main heal enfeeble nuke and aoe buff. Guess im out of a job ; ; SCH here i come.

SCH can't enfeeble, except through subjob. And they can't do all of those things at once because of limited stratagems. And they can't provide Sublimation to others. And they can't Haste (which is still highly desirable, since the cap was set quite high).

There's still plenty of uses for RDMs.

What about BLM though? SCH can now do everything we can with a /BLM subjob except Warp. While we can nuke a tinsy, winsy bit better, I think a party would much rather have a Raise II just a minute away if they don't have a WHM healer.

SCH can't enfeeble, except through subjob. And they can't do all of those things at once because of limited stratagems. And they can't provide Sublimation to others. And they can't Haste (which is still highly desirable, since the cap was set quite high).

There's still plenty of uses for RDMs.

I hardly call the stratagems limited, I never seem to have a problem with them and I always have more than enough to my disposal especially now, I loved SCH even before the update :3 but now after it, I love it even more! and my endgame LS is excited to see how well SCH performs in endgame! I am also really happy that SCH got T4 nukes, and some WHM ability's as well, It really helps SCH to stand out and gives it a bit more of a niche, I also wanted to point out that if you have a RDM in your pt you might not want to use Sublimination lol since obviously a RDM's refresh is better since you can also heal your mp back and if you have the right gear heal it back pretty darn quickly.

I really love this update and I'm super excited to get my SCH to 75 I have some of the best gear for it including vermy, ugg pendant, jet seraweels, jungle rope, rainbow cape, mithra rse feet, astral earring, tama's ring, ether ring, and apollo's staff :3 but i'm working my way to get all +1 staves someday so that I can be super pimp, i'm also trying to get Yigit gear since it seems to be the best endgame gear for SCH yet!

I am also really happy that SCH got T4 nukes, and some WHM ability's as well, It really helps SCH to stand out and gives it a bit more of a niche,
Well, um... Tier IV nukes gives Scholar a big opening to Black Mage's niche, while all the White Mage goodies gives exp parties one less reason to get a WHM ("Get the SCH for healer; better MP flow that way.")

S-E didn't so much create a new niche for SCH as kicking the BLM in the shin and WHM between the legs to shove them aside and make room for SCH. ._.

I guess it's great for people who are tired of playing BLM and WHM and want a job which can essentially do both, with a great deal more complexity.

Not that I don't appreciate all the goodies as a SCH43, but looks like my BLM56 will just have to solo/duo to 75, and it's finally time to sell any and every WHM44 gear I don't need for SCH and BLM. (Kinda sad; I was about to level WHM again for Raise II; want to be able to tele out and give R2 to any LS members who needs it when I'm idling in mog house.)

We'll just have to see how well SCH manages the domination of mage-dom. :wasted:


I have some of the best gear for it including vermy, ugg pendant, jet seraweels, jungle rope, rainbow cape, mithra rse feet, astral earring, tama's ring, ether ring, and apollo's staff :3 but i'm working my way to get all +1 staves someday so that I can be super pimp, i'm also trying to get Yigit gear since it seems to be the best endgame gear for SCH yet!
How would Apollo's Staff help SCH? It's the same cure potency as Light Staff, right?

Or were you planning on MB'ing with Banish frequently? ._.

How would Apollo's Staff help SCH? It's the same cure potency as Light Staff, right?

Or were you planning on MB'ing with Banish frequently? ._.

Luminohelix

I hardly call the stratagems limited, I never seem to have a problem with them and I always have more than enough to my disposal especially now, I loved SCH even before the update :3 but now after it, I love it even more! and my endgame LS is excited to see how well SCH performs in endgame! I am also really happy that SCH got T4 nukes, and some WHM ability's as well, It really helps SCH to stand out and gives it a bit more of a niche, I also wanted to point out that if you have a RDM in your pt you might not want to use Sublimination lol since obviously a RDM's refresh is better since you can also heal your mp back and if you have the right gear heal it back pretty darn quickly.

I really love this update and I'm super excited to get my SCH to 75 I have some of the best gear for it including vermy, ugg pendant, jet seraweels, jungle rope, rainbow cape, mithra rse feet, astral earring, tama's ring, ether ring, and apollo's staff :3 but i'm working my way to get all +1 staves someday so that I can be super pimp, i'm also trying to get Yigit gear since it seems to be the best endgame gear for SCH yet!

I understand why you would be happy for everything SCH got this update, but if you really think about it, don't you feel it is a little unfair to BLM and WHM? RDM still hold their niche with enfeebling and refresh/haste, but now, WHM only has a bit higher Raise and Cures, while BLM just has.... Warp. I would be all for this if SE let us get Tier V spells, or gave WHM the Divine Veil/Seal Seperation + Conserve MP they have always wanted, but we only got new trnsport spells from this update. Nice toys, yet, but do they improve our situation at all?

While BLMs, of course, still have Manaburns(which I never really liked anyway, to boring. I much prefer the traditional SC + MB Party), SCH can now substitute in almost any situation a BLM would be desirable. Need Sleep? No problem, SCH can come in /BLM and Elemental Seal + Sleepga II, Just like us. Magic damage needed? SCH has nearly matched our potency, while they have 8 less native MAB, they get a +20 MAB spell every minute now. And our unique DoTs, near-exclusive spikes, and other spells are all availible just by subbing BLM. Really, we have nothing left now. In addition, Scholars get the Helix spells, something BLMs could only dream about having, while still having access to everything else! Sure, we can do it a tiny bit better they you, but any party would rather have someone who can use the cost-effective Helix spells and switch to a pseudo-WHM in under a minute and toss out Raise IIs.

Now, I am not saying SCH should get the spells taken away. That would be unfair for the people who alreayd bought them for SCH, but don't have another job leveled that can use them. I am just saying they need to be a little harder to access. Make the higher Addendums meritable, add a MP cost penalty, or put the enhanced spellbook on a five-minute timer. One stratagem for two hours though, that is just to much.

Luminohelix
Heh. Totally skipped my mind. Thanks.

all this talk about SCH hurting BLM and WHM is all just paranoia... RDMs will still be the king of merit party healers because of refresh, that's not going to change... WHM will still be desirable for endgame events like it always has... BLM is still the nuking king and I doubt SCH will change that at all...

what SCH does bring to the table is flexibility for both xp parties and end game events. It also adds an extra depth of strategy for crowd control since it can do graviga and bindga. Low man events where you need more healing, a SCH can quickly switch roles and now be a healer and still do some good DoT dmg now and then. It's a pretty versatile class if you think about it and these changes only enable SCH to be that utility type mage class even better... if anything they make RDM just a refresh/enfeeble bot...

all this talk about SCH hurting BLM and WHM is all just paranoia... RDMs will still be the king of merit party healers because of refresh, that's not going to change... WHM will still be desirable for endgame events like it always has... BLM is still the nuking king and I doubt SCH will change that at all...

what SCH does bring to the table is flexibility for both xp parties and end game events. It also adds an extra depth of strategy for crowd control since it can do graviga and bindga. Low man events where you need more healing, a SCH can quickly switch roles and now be a healer and still do some good DoT dmg now and then. It's a pretty versatile class if you think about it and these changes only enable SCH to be that utility type mage class even better... if anything they make RDM just a refresh/enfeeble bot...

/agree

BLM is still the nuking king and I doubt SCH will change that at all...

Explain? Please tell me, what right now, Black Mage has over Scholar. There are a few differences yes, but SCH gets most of what we made out living on. The only things I see that BLM still retain, are -aga nukes, which have limited use, and in general, are rather inefficient.

all this talk about SCH hurting BLM and WHM is all just paranoia... RDMs will still be the king of merit party healers because of refresh, that's not going to change... WHM will still be desirable for endgame events like it always has... BLM is still the nuking king and I doubt SCH will change that at all...
The people who are worried are most concerned about the exp/merit situation. RDM has already marginalized WHM to some degree, SCH now compete squarely with WHM. (BLM isn't as much of a concern, since they've been mostly eliminated from exp as is. :P ) No one is terrible concerned about replacing WHM in endgame, I think, though tier IV now somewhat puts BLMs on the line to prove their worth.

For all the talk of flexibility, SCH is 80% about stealing WHM's and BLM's spell list (and Gravity from RDM), and 20% about how to manage the complexity of juggling the Arts and Stratagems to the best use in each situation.

That gets uncomfortably close to job blending, at least for me. The blurring of distinctions between jobs is ultimately detrimental to any RPG in the long run, even an MMORPG.

if anything they make RDM just a refresh/enfeeble bot...
Nah. We'll tank instead. Blind-spamming plus bar-spamming equals the winner for the enmity game.

Explain? Please tell me, what right now, Black Mage has over Scholar. There are a few differences yes, but SCH gets most of what we made out living on. The only things I see that BLM still retain, are -aga nukes, which have limited use, and in general, are rather inefficient.

well for one thing BLMs have AMII and -aga nukes. You can argue MP efficiency but when it comes down to just DMG and manaburning, I think BLMs will still win out. BLMs also have access to better gear sets which have more elemental skill gear, etc... I'm willing to bet that BLMs will be much more effective on endgame situations in terms of resist rates. I guess i'll believe the hype of SCH when I see it... and you act like now that these changes are in place, BLMs won't be wanted for anything lol... it's not like suddenly everyone's going to level SCH... my LS has maybe 3 SCH right now and like a dozen BLMs...

to IfritnoItazura:

That stealing from WHM/BLM/RDM is what makes SCH so flexible lol... see RDMs tanking... that's job blending right there =P

And for those of you who still think SCH isn't encroaching on other mage's territory...
I hardly call the stratagems limited, I never seem to have a problem with them and I always have more than enough to my disposal
There. Right from the Scholar's mouth. Stratagems are so easy to come by, Addendum isn't a major obstacle at all.

I am also really happy that SCH got T4 nukes, and some WHM ability's as well
See? They are directly stealing spells from other mage jobs. Previously, if someone needed Erase or -Nas, they would need a WHM, or at the very least, /WHM. Now, SCH/Anything or Anything/SCH gets these natively with just an arts switch and a stratagem, something not to hard to come by. And I am not just worried about EXP situations. With a native Sleep II and the ability to -ga it, in addition to a higher Enfeebling skill then BLM, the only advantage BLM gets is Elemental Seal, which can be subbed!

I really love this update and I'm super excited to get my SCH to 75 I have some of the best gear for it [...] i'm also trying to get Yigit gear since it seems to be the best endgame gear for SCH yet!

Okay, lets talk gear-wise. How does a SCH's nukes match up to a BLM's?

BLM/SCH Ultimate MAB:
Native MAB: +32%
H.Q. Stave: +15%
Sorcerer's Ring: +10%
Moldavite Earring: +5%
Novio Earring: +7%
Uggalepih Pendant: +8%
Genie Weskit +7%
Valkryie's Trews: +5%
Zenith Mitts +1: +6%
Total MAB: +95%

SCH/BLM Ultimate MAB:
Native MAB: +24%
Ebullience: +20%
H.Q. Stave: +15%
Moldavite Earring: +5%
Novio Earring: +7%
Uggalepih Pendant: +8%
Yigit Set: + 11%
Total MAB: +90%

There you have it. A 5% MAB difference. Yes, it helps, but given the fact that SCH also gets Raise & Reraise II, Helixes, Storms, Erase, and Dispel without a subjob, they simply out-utilize us. Most of the BLM gear is miles harder to get then the SCH gear anyway. Valkyrie's Trews? Not likely.

Lets take it a step further though, shall we? Scholar, as mentioned previously, gets the Storm-Spells. Now, with proper Storm effect active and an Elemental Obi, Scholar gets another 10% MAB unconditionally. BLM, on the other hand, only can get a 2% MAB from a belt, which also gives a Slow+5% effect. This gives SCH a MAB of 100%, while we get 97%. There. Right there. They are better nukers then us. BLM the nuking king? Not any more.

As for AM II, you are right, you can argue MP efficency. Because it sucks. About +30% base damage, for +100% cost over a Tier IV nuke? not to mention the insane cast and recast times. But you don't want to argue that. Despire that MP Conservation is almost half of a mage's job, you say it doesn't matter. So lets take it out of the equation. What are we left with? Merits. Black Mage can not get AM II or Elemental Proficiency traits without meriting. The problem is that SCH can tie or surpass us without them . That is a problem. A job that specializes in magical damage should not need to merit to keep up with a situational jack-of-all trades job. Ever.

With casting one spell at a time, X amount of MP, Y amount of MP recovery, I doubt a SCH can do everything all at once at the same time.

Team up! I am sure SCH + BLM together will create value.

again you're looking at MAB which is ok but if you get resisted it doesn't matter... and all that for tier IV nukes... AM II is not mp efficient but guess what? BLM still use it a lot and it's still useful... especially if you need to kill something quick on a time nuke.

realistically you're looking at SCH being secondary nukers and really i'd use them more for crowd control if anything and leave the BLMs to nuke. I guess I just don't see SCH hurting anything but bringing more options to the table... and I don't see what all the fuss is really about... are you just annoyed that BLMs didn't get much with this update?

What about BLM though? SCH can now do everything we can with a /BLM subjob except Warp. While we can nuke a tinsy, winsy bit better, I think a party would much rather have a Raise II just a minute away if they don't have a WHM healer.

Anyone that invites a job on the basis of which tier of raise they have fails at being responsible for thier own EXP buffing/capping.

SCH can't AM or AM II, they'll seldom -aga. T4 nukes are likely going to be more efficient for them anyway.

-------------------

I've started using Sublimation and storing it away in advance. Once the 25% HP limit is reached on Sublimation, Refresh and resting MP work again, so I'm kinda using SCH's Sublimation as a SAM would use Store TP. Store that MP away for use as needed, accept Refreshes as they come.

Onionsoldier: I agree that I think SE may possibly have gone a bit far but it's probably not going to be as bad as you are worrying about. Sch only gets B skill in elemental magic, that's less than a drk. Sure they get better mage gear than a drk would but the still have to get an extra 26 levels of skill at 75 before they can get a naked blms accuracy.

My decently geared level 75 blm friend still has to worry about resists with A+ skill, sch is going to need every bit of skill gear they can get to avoid frequent resists on nukes that aren't going to be as damaging as blm nukes to start with (and shouldn't be)

As for whm, lack of haste is going to dent sch appeal as a solo main healer significantly. Nin tanks without haste? Merit parties without haste? I don't think so. The AoE enspell buffs with good skill and multi hitting DDs might make up the damage you lose out from with haste but nothing scholar has will decrease Utsusemi recast timers.

sch + smn from 50 perhaps (though it would be really expensive and the smn probably wouldn't be doing much barring hastega and Elemental Siphon assuming they get it by then) or sch + brd from 60. Before 50 the only way to get a significant haste buff is to have a rdm or a whm with you and by 50 rdm is already pushing whm anyway.

No whm should be using anything but /sch really in exp now and by the time you get to merits you can get Sublimation from sub (and dispel) and you still have your stackable haste buff to add too so I don't think the effect to whm is going to be as great as I was worried it might be. Rdm is still preferred 48-75 as an exp party main healer and probably always will be. This scholar update just helped whm close the gap a little 70 +.

And I am not just worried about EXP situations. With a native Sleep II and the ability to -ga it, in addition to a higher Enfeebling skill then BLM, the only advantage BLM gets is Elemental Seal, which can be subbed!
So with the right subjob and two once-per-minute JAs (and much more mana and casting time, but it's not like casting time of a sleep could ever be important), 70+ SCH can kind of imitate something BLM gets natively?
Okay, lets talk gear-wise. How does a SCH's nukes match up to a BLM's?

BLM/SCH Ultimate MAB:
Native MAB: +32%
H.Q. Stave: +15%
Sorcerer's Ring: +10%
Moldavite Earring: +5%
Novio Earring: +7%
Uggalepih Pendant: +8%
Genie Weskit +7%
Valkryie's Trews: +5%
Zenith Mitts +1: +6%
Total MAB: +95%

SCH/BLM Ultimate MAB:
Native MAB: +24%
Ebullience: +20%
H.Q. Stave: +15%
Moldavite Earring: +5%
Novio Earring: +7%
Uggalepih Pendant: +8%
Yigit Set: + 11%
Total MAB: +90%

There you have it. A 5% MAB difference. Yes, it helps, but given the fact that SCH also gets Raise & Reraise II, Helixes, Storms, Erase, and Dispel without a subjob, they simply out-utilize us. Most of the BLM gear is miles harder to get then the SCH gear anyway. Valkyrie's Trews? Not likely.
More likely than Novio Earring, good grief. Almost the entirety of the two lists is identical to start with, and I don't know about you, but I think z-mitts and a jse you can buy are easier to get than an entire assault set (at 20k assault points per piece, that's about 100 assaults).

Plus the yigit set isn't really a practical option for sch anyway; they'd have to give up the only skill af they *do* get (which is half as much as the skill af+relic blms get).

Anyway, this is a dishonest comparison; you're comparing a once-per-minute (at best) JA to the MAB the BLM has *all the time* (well, all the time that the various latents are active).
Lets take it a step further though, shall we? Scholar, as mentioned previously, gets the Storm-Spells. Now, with proper Storm effect active and an Elemental Obi, Scholar gets another 10% MAB unconditionally. BLM, on the other hand, only can get a 2% MAB from a belt, which also gives a Slow+5% effect. This gives SCH a MAB of 100%, while we get 97%. There. Right there. They are better nukers then us. BLM the nuking king? Not any more.
Wow, that's even more dishonest than the previous comparison. Storms can be cast *on other players*, including BLMs, who can (and often do) wear obis of their own. Storms/obis are in no way an advantage for SCH (other than it'll be kind of nice to have one SCH per BLM party). Allowing storm on the BLM puts them up to 105% *constantly*, while a SCH has only 80% with storm (rising to 100% during Ebullience). And the SCH has to burn a stratagem, time, and MP to put the storm on the whole party. They'll be too busy being the BLMs' slave to have a chance to compete with them.
As for AM II, you are right, you can argue MP efficency. Because it sucks. About +30% base damage, for +100% cost over a Tier IV nuke? not to mention the insane cast and recast times.
Which a blm/sch can get over with parsimony and alacrity, since they don't have to use all their stratagems just to stay within shouting distance of a blm's all-the-time MAB. (To say nothing of int and skill, which is where sch is really going to fail as an hnm nuker. A base skill gap of over 20 points *plus* less available skill gear is going to be ugly.)
A job that specializes in magical damage should not need to merit to keep up with a situational jack-of-all trades job. Ever.
A sch that never shifts out of dark arts (to maintain addendum) while spending every single stratagem charge on ebullience isn't much of a jack of all trades.

How would Apollo's Staff help SCH? It's the same cure potency as Light Staff, right?

Or were you planning on MB'ing with Banish frequently? ._.

MB'ing yes, but not with banish, with Luminohelix I think thats how it is spelled, its the Light based Helix SCH gets at 75. I am also trying to get 2.4mil together to get the remaining +1 staves, although I might not waste my time getting anything but Thunder staff, Ice staff, Dark staff+1 since I wont really be using any other T4's unless its a special occasion :)

I've started using Sublimation and storing it away in advance. Once the 25% HP limit is reached on Sublimation, Refresh and resting MP work again, so I'm kinda using SCH's Sublimation as a SAM would use Store TP. Store that MP away for use as needed, accept Refreshes as they come.

I call bullshit on Refresh working again when Sublimation is full. I tried to Refresh myself on RDM/SCH once Sublimation hit the cap just last night and it still didn't work (healing does, though). This pisses me off because it makes SCH and RDM enemies. I now have to be the bad guy telling people not to use their own JAs.

One thing that is noteworthy is that Stoneskin prevents Sublimation damage and thus allows you to rest. We'll see whether SE changes this. -- Pteryx

So with the right subjob and two once-per-minute JAs (and much more mana and casting time, but it's not like casting time of a sleep could ever be important), 70+ SCH can kind of imitate something BLM gets natively?

More likely than Novio Earring, good grief. Almost the entirety of the two lists is identical to start with, and I don't know about you, but I think z-mitts and a jse you can buy are easier to get than an entire assault set (at 20k assault points per piece, that's about 100 assaults).

Plus the yigit set isn't really a practical option for sch anyway; they'd have to give up the only skill af they *do* get (which is half as much as the skill af+relic blms get).

Anyway, this is a dishonest comparison; you're comparing a once-per-minute (at best) JA to the MAB the BLM has *all the time* (well, all the time that the various latents are active).

Wow, that's even more dishonest than the previous comparison. Storms can be cast *on other players*, including BLMs, who can (and often do) wear obis of their own. Storms/obis are in no way an advantage for SCH (other than it'll be kind of nice to have one SCH per BLM party). Allowing storm on the BLM puts them up to 105% *constantly*, while a SCH has only 80% with storm (rising to 100% during Ebullience). And the SCH has to burn a stratagem, time, and MP to put the storm on the whole party. They'll be too busy being the BLMs' slave to have a chance to compete with them.

Which a blm/sch can get over with parsimony and alacrity, since they don't have to use all their stratagems just to stay within shouting distance of a blm's all-the-time MAB. (To say nothing of int and skill, which is where sch is really going to fail as an hnm nuker. A base skill gap of over 20 points *plus* less available skill gear is going to be ugly.)

A sch that never shifts out of dark arts (to maintain addendum) while spending every single stratagem charge on ebullience isn't much of a jack of all trades.

Why are you trying to prove this guy wrong? you have no proof that what he's saying is not true. and for one Yigit set is the best set of gear SCH can get atm sure you have the af but that can easily be macro'd in and out, and the 1min recast time for the stratagems? that is a hell of a lot shorter than you think its only 60 seconds, you can spend 40 seconds just sitting to heal half your mp, and 10-20 seconds tossing one or two cures into the alliance/party SCH is def one of the second best nukers in the game, and they dont get a B skill in elemental magic they get a B+ for the person who stated that earlier. That is not far off, not to mention Klimaform which is SCH's af scroll (in replacement for the af weapon) it gives magic Accuracy to the magic spell casted that matches the weather currently on the player, and with the new update the weather spells have a really fast casting time. Sure BLM will alaways be the best nuker only b/c of AM and AMII, but SCH sure as hell is not far behind and i'm really getting sick of ppl belittling BLM and SCH throughout this whole thread b/c like it or not they share T4 spells but that does not mean one is better than the other they both are very different jobs, SCH is meant to be a switch job it is meant to be second best at WHM skill and second best at BLM skill nothing you say or complain about is going to change that, it is what the job was designed for, so throwing RDM, BLM, WHM around trying to disprove this "theory" is only making yourself look like an idiot. BLM > SCH > everything els, WHM > SCH > Everything els, and thats basically final sitting here number crunching and argueing over how much MAB each job gets isn't going to disprove the fact that SCH is in fact 2nd best at both Jobs. No BLM and WHM are not going to get shoved around and ignored there are many things such as protect V, shell V, AM, AMII, Raise III, Reraise III, Teleport spells, merits, Warp II, Sleepga, Sleepga II, Repose, Cure V, Curaga I+, Divine seal, elemental seal etc. I mean sure SCH can sub those and get the ja's and maybe warp but so can every other mage.

I call bullshit on Refresh working again when Sublimation is full. I tried to Refresh myself on RDM/SCH once Sublimation hit the cap just last night and it still didn't work (healing does, though). This pisses me off because it makes SCH and RDM enemies. I now have to be the bad guy telling people not to use their own JAs.

One thing that is noteworthy is that Stoneskin prevents Sublimation damage and thus allows you to rest. We'll see whether SE changes this. -- Pteryx

"I tried it on RDM/SCH"

What if the effect is altered when subbed. RDM main with Refresh + Sublimation active at the same timeis arguably very broken.

I've just been running around SCH main with Sigil Refresh and Sublimation active at the same time. Latent Refresh ticked up when HP went down.

Got Sleepga IIed in Campaign, Sublimation broke the sleep effect instantly.

I'd wager once I get Stoneskin I can rest with Sublimation active.

At any rate, more testing still needs to be done before RDMs stop acting like spazmos (again).

"I tried it on RDM/SCH"

What if the effect is altered when subbed. RDM main with Refresh + Sublimation active at the same timeis arguably very broken.

I've just been running around SCH main with Sigil Refresh and Sublimation active at the same time. Latent Refresh ticked up when HP went down.

Got Sleepga IIed in Campaign, Sublimation broke the sleep effect instantly.

I'd wager once I get Stoneskin I can rest with Sublimation active.

At any rate, more testing still needs to be done before RDMs stop acting like spazmos (again).

So your saying that if I have Stoneskin up and active I can actually /heal while sublimination is storing mp? That would actually solve all my problems with Sublimination since SCH should be stuck in the BLM pt, and the BLM pt should have a BRD instead of a RDM :3

In nowadays when a MP nuker is invited to group for nuking, it is rare to invite one and only one nuker (unless the players are not available). It usually comes with an army of nukers (multiple BLM, multiple SMN, etc).

It make a lot of sense to pack one SCH + multiple BLM in a group, instead of replacing all BLM with SCH.

Technically, BLM/SCH is a possible hybrid nuker-healer.

Tier 4 on SCH is totally overboard IMO, but to say that BLM is out of a job is stretching things.

The only time the comparison matters, you will likely have the SCH in a BLM PT for Weather buffs anyway. Accession + Storm is going to remove Addendum: Black, IE you lose 2 minutes worth of charges if you want storms and Tier 4. Storms used to last 2 minutes, supposedly this has been increased a bit. A SCH might have Ebullience for some of his spells, but not all. Then there's Elemental Magic skill. SCH has to give quite a lot of INT and MAB to reach an acceptable level. And doesn't have access to some of the best stuff, Morrigan's, Zenith, Igqira, etc. Klimaform will help with accuracy, but that's for one element only.

In crowd control situations, SCH is there to assist the sleep crew with his Graviga. In party utility, yeah, no kidding, BLM has always been kinda crappy at that. I've been asking for more and better utilities for BLM since '04.
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So your saying that if I have Stoneskin up and active I can actually /heal while sublimination is storing mp? That would actually solve all my problems with Sublimination since SCH should be stuck in the BLM pt, and the BLM pt should have a BRD instead of a RDM :3

Well it should have a COR really, but beggars can't be choosers. :wasted:
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Technically, BLM/SCH is a possible hybrid nuker-healer.

Sublimation aside, how is it better than BLM/WHM? They get spells later and have no self-defense, which a nuker+healer badly needs.

Tier 4 on SCH is totally overboard IMO, but to say that BLM is out of a job is stretching things.

I really dont think its as horrible as everyone is making it out to be, BLM is still BLM, and WHM is still WHM, T4 nukes for a SCH fits the job very well without that SCH was really nothing all too special except it had mana and could heal or do an AoE every 4 minutes, even though I loved the job before the update I am not afraid to admit SCH was a bit meh compared to RDM,BLM,WHM but now that SCH gets some of the spells its meant to have like Raise II, and T4 nukes I think it really completes the job and allows it to function to its full potential.

Why are you trying to prove this guy wrong? you have no proof that what he's saying is not true. and for one Yigit set is the best set of gear SCH can get atm sure you have the af but that can easily be macro'd in and out, and the 1min recast time for the stratagems? ....etc

Why is she is trying to counter the guy's arguments? His stance is that SCH is stepping on BLMs shoes too much and even outclasses BLM in the one thing BLMs are supposed to be the best at. Do you really want all BLMs to suddenly believe that SCH is a better nuker than a BLM? That SCH is broken and needs to be nerfed? Since you're the resident advocate of SCH as the best job evar I'd think you wouldn't want people to think that way about SCH. Karinya's goal is to downplay those issues before they get out of hand. Not that I agree with her or anything but the point is to help the view of the SCH job not harm it. Even if she only wanted to point out inconsistencies in his argument, it still HELPS your cause because of the reasons I pointed out above.

You said you don't like people belittling SCH and BLM and you seem to want people to be okay with both jobs, but it doesn't look like Onionsoldier is ok with SCHs nuking capability. Onionsoldier isn't happy with SCH. You're taking his side. You say SCH is your favorite job and you say you don't want people belittling mage jobs. Karinya isn't doing that in the least. Just whose side are you on?

If Onionsoldier's claims are totally true... that SCH is a BETTER nuker than BLM... then SCH is indeed broken and needs to be nerfed. Is that what you want?

Why is she is trying to counter the guy's arguments? His stance is that SCH is stepping on BLMs shoes too much and even outclasses BLM in the one thing BLMs are supposed to be the best at. Do you really want all BLMs to suddenly believe that SCH is a better nuker than a BLM? That SCH is broken and needs to be nerfed? Since you're the resident advocate of SCH as the best job evar I'd think you wouldn't want people to think that way about SCH. Karinya's goal is to downplay those issues before they get out of hand. Not that I agree with her or anything but the point is to help the view of the SCH job not harm it. Even if she only wanted to point out inconsistencies in his argument, it still HELPS your cause because of the reasons I pointed out above.

You said you don't like people belittling SCH and BLM and you seem to want people to be okay with both jobs, but it doesn't look like Onionsoldier is ok with SCHs nuking capability. Onionsoldier isn't happy with SCH. You're taking his side. You say SCH is your favorite job and you say you don't want people belittling mage jobs. Karinya isn't doing that in the least. Just whose side are you on?

If Onionsoldier's claims are totally true... that SCH is a BETTER nuker than BLM... then SCH is indeed broken and needs to be nerfed. Is that what you want?

Ok 1. I never said SCH was the best job ever 2. SCH is like any other job it has what it was intended for and it can be used in many different ways. 3. Complaining that BLM and or WHM is out of a job b/c of SCH is just idiocy seriously come on people? 4. I don't agree that SCH is a better nuker than BLM nor do I agree that SCH should be nerfed, 5. Seriously you made no sense in your post whatsoever next time make your point a bit more clear. 6. If you read into what I am saying half of what you just said about me is far from true and wasn't present in any of my posts. Last but not least 7. SCH IS NOT A BLM, nor is SCH A WHM!! SCH is the bridge betwene both it is able to switch roles it was intended to be SECOND BEST at both roles, it was not meant to "step on" BLM or WHM's feet, and should not be treated as so seriously I bet half of you who are saying this 1. dont have SCH past lvl 37, 2. are either a BLM or a WHM, and 3. Know nothing about the job other than whats written on paper, how about you give the job a try and see what you think of it instead of relying on what everyone els is saying since after all its all based on what "should could" happen instead of what actually "does" happen with full exp in lvling the job, exp in the job > what is on paper its that simple.

I've just been running around SCH main with Sigil Refresh and Sublimation active at the same time.

There's a difference here, though: Sanction/Sigil Refresh is not the Refresh status. It doesn't take up the spot that juices and RDM's Refresh spell do. Neither do Ballad or Evoker's Roll; as far as I know, those are also compatible with Sublimation. Thus, you running around with Sigil Refresh does not prove that the spell Refresh can be cast on you, or that you can drink juice. My complaint is that I can't cast Refresh on someone under either form of Sublimation, and that's going to lead to conflict between RDMs and SCHs (and /SCHs), where before the two jobs were complementary. -- Pteryx

Ok 1. I never said SCH was the best job ever 2. SCH is like any other job it has what it was intended for and it can be used in many different ways. 3. Complaining that BLM and or WHM is out of a job b/c of SCH is just idiocy seriously come on people? 4. I don't agree that SCH is a better nuker than BLM nor do I agree that SCH should be nerfed, 5. Seriously you made no sense in your post whatsoever next time make your point a bit more clear. 6. If you read into what I am saying half of what you just said about me is far from true and wasn't present in any of my posts. Last but not least 7. SCH IS NOT A BLM, nor is SCH A WHM!! SCH is the bridge betwene both it is able to switch roles it was intended to be SECOND BEST at both roles, it was not meant to "step on" BLM or WHM's feet, and should not be treated as so seriously I bet half of you who are saying this 1. dont have SCH past lvl 37, 2. are either a BLM or a WHM, and 3. Know nothing about the job other than whats written on paper, how about you give the job a try and see what you think of it instead of relying on what everyone els is saying since after all its all based on what "should could" happen instead of what actually "does" happen with full exp in lvling the job, exp in the job > what is on paper its that simple.

*sigh* Let me make it more clear then.

1. You're confused about Karinya's intentions.

2. Of course you don't believe in the things I said about SCH being better than BLM. What Onionsoldier was saying and your response to Karinya didn't match up at ALL. I said what I said to show you that you were taking what Karinya was saying the wrong way. I pointed out those things about SCH and BLM and asked you "Do you really believe that?" In your head your answer was supposed to be "No." and you were supposed to realize that Karinya is NOT a moron.

3. Karinya was only trying to help by trying to disprove Onionsoldier who doesn't like what's going on with SCH in the first place!

4. You're still taking things the wrong way!

Saying that you're the advocate of SCH as the best job evar was just my way of saying you really like SCH. It wasn't intended to be taken literally or seriously, since I'm not writing an essay or anything. Which leads me to believe you're going to continue to misunderstand and take things the wrong way so... I'm just gonna leave it alone. The kind of people showing up on the forums lately is starting to make me feel tired...

The kind of people showing up on the forums lately is starting to make me feel tired...

1. Dont read their posts then its not like you actually have to reply to them anyway.
2. I'm not taking anything the wrong way, Only something that is presented in a manor as such can be taken in the way it was presented. Dont make me look like a fool just b/c you did not clearly state what you meant.
3. Yes I may have been wrong about what those other 2 where trying to do only b/c I didnt read the original posts they made instead I read the quoted parts and from that point of view it seemed to follow more along the lines of how I replied.

There's a difference here, though: Sanction/Sigil Refresh is not the Refresh status. It doesn't take up the spot that juices and RDM's Refresh spell do. Neither do Ballad or Evoker's Roll; as far as I know, those are also compatible with Sublimation. Thus, you running around with Sigil Refresh does not prove that the spell Refresh can be cast on you, or that you can drink juice. My complaint is that I can't cast Refresh on someone under either form of Sublimation, and that's going to lead to conflict between RDMs and SCHs (and /SCHs), where before the two jobs were complementary. -- Pteryx

They don't need to stack. SCH have the option to just not use Sublimation when a RDM is present, but far as I can tell, I can manage just fine on my own having Conserve MP, +hMP gear, Clear Mind, Penury, Parsimony and Sublimation.

Sublimation's design is clearly made for self sufficient purposes where RDM is not present or needed. You can't seriously expect SE to nerf Ballad or Evoker's just because they're different status effects. The whole problem with RDM and fellow mages has been our dependancy on RDMs - this fixes that.

Think about how that frees up a COR - I may not have to use Evoker's, but instead, I can use Scholar's Roll, Wizard's Roll or Warlock's Roll

Again, Sublimation + Refresh would be overpowered. Elemental Siphon + Sublimation is insanely powerful, but in the case of SMN, totally needed as well.

The kind of people showing up on the forums lately is starting to make me feel tired...

Meh, just blacklist them, then you don't have to deal with it.

>.>


<.<



I like miniskirts on mithras.

*hides*

They don't need to stack. SCH have the option to just not use Sublimation when a RDM is present, but far as I can tell, I can manage just fine on my own having Conserve MP, +hMP gear, Clear Mind, Penury, Parsimony and Sublimation.

I agree, and when a RDM was in my pt I wouldn't use sublimination at all it really proves to be useless unless there is no RDM in the party.

Sublimation's design is clearly made for self sufficient purposes where RDM is not present or needed. You can't seriously expect SE to nerf Ballad or Evoker's just because they're different status effects. The whole problem with RDM and fellow mages has been our dependancy on RDMs - this fixes that.

I agree we do rely way too much on RDM, and now that SCH doesnt really "Have" to have a RDM in their pt it makes it all the better, I kinda like COR and BRD Myself AoE refresh just seems a lot more useful, save the RDM's for the tank/dd partys.

Meh, just blacklist them, then you don't have to deal with it.

Blacklisting someone just b/c you dont agree with what they are saying just shows you have major character flaws (low self esteem maybe?), If you are being cursed out or totally harassed then I can understand but for a simple disagreement? Thats a bit too much considering the person you would blacklist could reply on something els with useful information to you, and you wouldn't see it b/c you had a stick stuck up your ass and blacklisted them b/c you didn't see "eye to eye" (I am not gearing that comment towards anyone in general so don't get all offensive and make it look like I singled you out for attention or something I'm not that nice)

>.>


<.<



I like miniskirts on mithras.

*hides*

With a cat's tail included? :biggrin:

>.>


<.<



I like miniskirts on mithras.

*hides*

I agree the SCH af is soooo cute!!!!!!!

One thing I'm really interested in finding out, is that are SCH really weak in the lower levels? I've heard people say that you can't take on anything higher than an EP and I find that hard to believe that SCH would be so weak. Even my SMN did better than that lower than level 10 and it seems like grinding out those first few levels would be hellish if it's true that they're that physically weak.

1. Dont read their posts then its not like you actually have to reply to them anyway.
2. I'm not taking anything the wrong way, Only something that is presented in a manor as such can be taken in the way it was presented. Dont make me look like a fool just b/c you did not clearly state what you meant.
3. Yes I may have been wrong about what those other 2 where trying to do only b/c I didnt read the original posts they made instead I read the quoted parts and from that point of view it seemed to follow more along the lines of how I replied.

I stated quite clearly what I meant. If you didn't understand what Onionsoldier really meant, and you didn't understand what Karinya really meant, how am I supposed to believe that there is something somehow wrong with what I wrote that makes you misunderstand what I meant? You're. Not. Reading. Things. Correctly.

The very last thing I wanted was to make you look like a fool. But you took it that way for little to no reason. I was trying to help. But apparently helping people understand a situation is grounds for character defamation.

Having said all that, if I have offended you in some way then I whole-heartedly and sincerely apologize. I can bet dollars to donuts that you're going to somehow take these words as an attack towards you, however. Despite that, I'm not going to blist. Just not going to reply to anything else from you until you calm down.

One thing I'm really interested in finding out, is that are SCH really weak in the lower levels? I've heard people say that you can't take on anything higher than an EP and I find that hard to believe that SCH would be so weak. Even my SMN did better than that lower than level 10 and it seems like grinding out those first few levels would be hellish if it's true that they're that physically weak.

I've soled SCH past the dunes, mostly on worms (N. Gusta > N. Gusta (S) > Maze of Shakarami) . From there on out, no reason to turn one down for a PT.

With a cat's tail included? :biggrin:


Especially so.




Should I see a doctor for that? :x

One thing I'm really interested in finding out, is that are SCH really weak in the lower levels? I've heard people say that you can't take on anything higher than an EP and I find that hard to believe that SCH would be so weak. Even my SMN did better than that lower than level 10 and it seems like grinding out those first few levels would be hellish if it's true that they're that physically weak.

Smn is very strong after you get to about level 3 (just so your pet actually stays with you through 3 fights or so). Sch is fairly horrible at low level. It's about half way between whm and blm physically and look at the spells you get 1-10:

4: stone
5: cure
8: water
10: poisona
10: Protect

That's a long time with not a lot of tools and bear in mind you don't get light/dark arts till 10 (so 2 hr is out to level 10) so you are casting all those with D capped skill maximum. You can't really pull the /dd and smack stuff with sch so well as you can with whm/rdm/blm because not much in the way of spells and no enfeebles natively.

One thing I'm really interested in finding out, is that are SCH really weak in the lower levels? I've heard people say that you can't take on anything higher than an EP and I find that hard to believe that SCH would be so weak. Even my SMN did better than that lower than level 10 and it seems like grinding out those first few levels would be hellish if it's true that they're that physically weak.

SCH at lower lvls is about as weak as any other mage (other than blm) b/c you dont get LA or DA to enhance your ability's till lvl 10 making your rank a D by default. The best thing to do Is fight anything but beastmen, and yeah I considered it pretty hellish till I reached lvl 10 where it got a bit easier especially in pt's and or being PL'd.

I think SCH has received what it deserves, it now has the best of both worlds (all 3 if they go /RDM.) However to me Sublimation is going to become as much of a staple for all mage jobs (except RDM) as /NIN did for single handed melee jobs. The fact is SCH isnt stepping on the toes of WHM or BLM as much as they are on the toes of RDM. Any mage who does not /SCH to handle its own MP regeneration is retarded, and any mage who goes /SCH is asking to not receive refresh. With WHM or SMN subbing SCH, RDM is not needed(except for instances where teir 2 enfeebles are a must).

BLM dosent get invites to parties because they refused to assist the party post AM with cures or status healing. BLM dug there own hole a long time ago in response to ToA's magic resistance mobs they refused to main heal and were eventually let go. WHM lost its place to RDM because of superior MP efficentcy on the part of RDM, however WHM/SCH can now ghetto convert every 25's if it wishes and most WHM's already have 1-2 tics of refresh through gear, its toes not missing either.

All SCH has done is lightened the load off of RDM's Which we wanted. While RDM has now moved to 2nd or even 3rd place in the Main healer dept. We will still have our place endgame. Unfourtunatly for the RDM's that never found a way to XP outside of fast paced meripo, they will see a steady decline of invites as WHM regains its top rank healing platform. Unfourtunatly for the BLM's who couldnt accept the healers roll in ToA, yes SCH will step on your toes. As a carear RDM levels 60-75 were no fun, i rarely enfeebled and never nuked. BLM's got it easier then they pretend being able to Solo there XP while most jobs have to fight out for invites. SCH has bridged the gap between nuker/healer to an extent the RDM never could, BLM will always have big numbers but until they learn that they can do things besides drop AM and Teir 4's in a party situation yes SCH will step on your toes.

As for SCH vs RDM i am very torn one side of me is very angry while the otherside is not. 1. I am angry because SCH, /SCH Puts us out of a Job in certain regards, we are no longer the only botomless pit of cures, buff, debuffs, and MB's I feel that is the biggest infringment on any job. Another would be the striping of our enspells, SCH can now match our enhancing magic and with the enspell update, cast them with same proficency as a RDM, provided they are /RDM (which they should be). Sublimation renders our most trademark spell useless during its active time (from start till use of stored MP). Refresh is no longer a requirement for parties with more than 1 Mage. (especially a smn/sch or whm/sch)2. I am happy because the only toes that were "Stepped on" Were "lazy" RDM's, the ones who coasted through, living on refresh and convert. Unfourtunatley for them the time in the sun is over and now its time to be an acctual job that cant just coast. Thankfully for myself i have reinveted my job several times with various subs other than WHM, and know how to manipulate myself in a melee-mage setting. So to all those who laugh, or chirp RDM melee, welcome to the post Wotg era, where job balance has finally reached a reasonable level where 50-60(x2) /BLU, /DRK, or 40-50(x3) /NIN is possible and welcome from anyone that knows anything about SC systems.

And for those of you who still think SCH isn't encroaching on other mage's territory...

I don't think they are. I know they are. Just deal with it. Everyone's had their "territory" encroached on them. Mages aren't any more special

There. Right from the Scholar's mouth. Stratagems are so easy to come by, Addendum isn't a major obstacle at all.

Not sure when this statement was made in this thread, but a 4 min cool down on charges is retarded. There are plenty of situations where I wished I could have thrown up a new Stoneskin agaist Pecking Fury/Mamool Multi Hit moves/Firespit..etc. 4 mins & 3 charges is WAY too long. I'm glad the fix the charges and recast.


See? They are directly stealing spells from other mage jobs. Previously, if someone needed Erase or -Nas, they would need a WHM, or at the very least, /WHM. Now, SCH/Anything or Anything/SCH gets these natively with just an arts switch and a stratagem, something not to hard to come by. And I am not just worried about EXP situations. With a native Sleep II and the ability to -ga it, in addition to a higher Enfeebling skill then BLM, the only advantage BLM gets is Elemental Seal, which can be subbed!

Stealing is rather harsh. Is RDM considered stealing Haste/Stoneskin/Blink from WHM? is RDM considered stealing Sleep/Sleep2 from BLM? What qualifies as stealing? These are shared spells. It just means SCH's range of shared spells is greater, hardly stealing. BLMs still have Sleepga 2 so ES isn't exactly the "only" advantage a BLM has.

Okay, lets talk gear-wise. How does a SCH's nukes match up to a BLM's?

BLM/SCH Ultimate MAB:
Native MAB: +32%
H.Q. Stave: +15%
Sorcerer's Ring: +10%
Moldavite Earring: +5%
Novio Earring: +7%
Uggalepih Pendant: +8%
Genie Weskit +7%
Valkryie's Trews: +5%
Zenith Mitts +1: +6%
Total MAB: +95%

SCH/BLM Ultimate MAB:
Native MAB: +24%
Ebullience: +20%
H.Q. Stave: +15%
Moldavite Earring: +5%
Novio Earring: +7%
Uggalepih Pendant: +8%
Yigit Set: + 11%
Total MAB: +90%

There you have it. A 5% MAB difference. Yes, it helps, but given the fact that SCH also gets Raise & Reraise II, Helixes, Storms, Erase, and Dispel without a subjob, they simply out-utilize us. Most of the BLM gear is miles harder to get then the SCH gear anyway. Valkyrie's Trews? Not likely.

How does Ebullience count as gear? You said it yourself, there are other spells we have that we need (or might need)charges for.

Lets take it a step further though, shall we? Scholar, as mentioned previously, gets the Storm-Spells. Now, with proper Storm effect active and an Elemental Obi, Scholar gets another 10% MAB unconditionally. BLM, on the other hand, only can get a 2% MAB from a belt, which also gives a Slow+5% effect. This gives SCH a MAB of 100%, while we get 97%. There. Right there. They are better nukers then us. BLM the nuking king? Not any more.

Alright, tell us please what is stopping a BLM from wearing the Obi's as well? Better yet, explain to me how Ebullience-ing YOURSELF compares to giving 1 * n (where n is the number of BLMs in PT) & yourself a storm spell via Accession? I think we know which option gives the most DMG. Sure weathers are longer now, but that doesn't change the fact that you cannot always use Ebullience for EVERYSINGLE one of your nukes

As for AM II, you are right, you can argue MP efficency. Because it sucks. About +30% base damage, for +100% cost over a Tier IV nuke? not to mention the insane cast and recast times. But you don't want to argue that. Despire that MP Conservation is almost half of a mage's job, you say it doesn't matter. So lets take it out of the equation. What are we left with? Merits. Black Mage can not get AM II or Elemental Proficiency traits without meriting. The problem is that SCH can tie or surpass us without them . That is a problem. A job that specializes in magical damage should not need to merit to keep up with a situational jack-of-all trades job. Ever.

BLM's Elmental Magic Skill A+
SCH's Elemntal Magic Skill B+
I'd say 20 skill difference is pretty noticable.

Note to Self: Posting during Kings & DNC AFputs you really behind on things >.>

I think SCH has received what it deserves, it now has the best of both worlds (all 3 if they go /RDM.) However to me Sublimation is going to become as much of a staple for all mage jobs (except RDM) as /NIN did for single handed melee jobs. The fact is SCH isnt stepping on the toes of WHM or BLM as much as they are on the toes of RDM. Any mage who does not /SCH to handle its own MP regeneration is retarded, and any mage who goes /SCH is asking to not receive refresh. With WHM or SMN subbing SCH, RDM is not needed(except for instances where teir 2 enfeebles are a must).

BLM dosent get invites to parties because they refused to assist the party post AM with cures or status healing. BLM dug there own hole a long time ago in response to ToA's magic resistance mobs they refused to main heal and were eventually let go. WHM lost its place to RDM because of superior MP efficentcy on the part of RDM, however WHM/SCH can now ghetto convert every 25's if it wishes and most WHM's already have 1-2 tics of refresh through gear, its toes not missing either.

All SCH has done is lightened the load off of RDM's Which we wanted. While RDM has now moved to 2nd or even 3rd place in the Main healer dept. We will still have our place endgame. Unfourtunatly for the RDM's that never found a way to XP outside of fast paced meripo, they will see a steady decline of invites as WHM regains its top rank healing platform. Unfourtunatly for the BLM's who couldnt accept the healers roll in ToA, yes SCH will step on your toes. As a carear RDM levels 60-75 were no fun, i rarely enfeebled and never nuked. BLM's got it easier then they pretend being able to Solo there XP while most jobs have to fight out for invites. SCH has bridged the gap between nuker/healer to an extent the RDM never could, BLM will always have big numbers but until they learn that they can do things besides drop AM and Teir 4's in a party situation yes SCH will step on your toes.

As for SCH vs RDM i am very torn one side of me is very angry while the otherside is not. 1. I am angry because SCH, /SCH Puts us out of a Job in certain regards, we are no longer the only botomless pit of cures, buff, debuffs, and MB's I feel that is the biggest infringment on any job. Another would be the striping of our enspells, SCH can now match our enhancing magic and with the enspell update, cast them with same proficency as a RDM, provided they are /RDM (which they should be). Sublimation renders our most trademark spell useless during its active time (from start till use of stored MP). Refresh is no longer a requirement for parties with more than 1 Mage. (especially a smn/sch or whm/sch)2. I am happy because the only toes that were "Stepped on" Were "lazy" RDM's, the ones who coasted through, living on refresh and convert. Unfourtunatley for them the time in the sun is over and now its time to be an acctual job that cant just coast. Thankfully for myself i have reinveted my job several times with various subs other than WHM, and know how to manipulate myself in a melee-mage setting. So to all those who laugh, or chirp RDM melee, welcome to the post Wotg era, where job balance has finally reached a reasonable level where 50-60(x2) /BLU, /DRK, or 40-50(x3) /NIN is possible and welcome from anyone that knows anything about SC systems.

I love you!! finally someone who woke up to smell the coffee.....

thank you folgers ftw

I just had this image in mind of a mithra buzzed on caffeine.


Funneh XD

I just had this image in mind of a mithra buzzed on caffeine.


Funneh XD

you and your mithra's XD

(*'-') oh wait! I'm a mithra too :3

It's only an obsession if you have a shrine.

Or a support group.

Were "lazy" RDM's, the ones who coasted through, living on refresh and convert.

Being a backline Rdm never implied only using Refresh and Convert you know....

Personally, I thought playing a backline role also meant using enfeebles, support healing, and other such boons to the class. In fact,

I thought it basically meant everything except running up and attacking with your weapon like an idiot. What do I know, though?

I do know thats why i quoted the "lazy" o know of a large number of RDM's who preform well from the backline. This update is just going to thin the heard, remove the dead wait "Lazy" coasting RDM's from the true RDM's. I thank you SCH

No ones posted about this so couple of random little things.

At the moment whm75/37sch, two charges time to regain 1 charge 1 minute instead of two so small error there I think based on the update notes.

To be expected seeing as how rdm refresh doesn't stack with sublimation but confirming that juice doesn't stack with it either.

I guess I just don't quite understand the logic behind not allowing Refresh to be cast on someone with Sublimation active, while Evoker's Roll and Ballads will work. I find it curious that SE singled out the one spell over the others. It would have made more sense to me to have the ability stop all 3.

Also, while sublimation is GREAT, I don't think it's as effective as some people think it is. For instance, as a galka with over 1200 hp, I can get max 308 MP from Sublimation. However, in order to get that amount, I need to let Sublimation be active for over 7 minutes. It is nice that I can put stoneskin up and rest MP, if needed, but it isn't like anyone with access to sublimation can just activate the ability every 25 seconds and expect to get more than 16-20 MP back.

I guess I just don't quite understand the logic behind not allowing Refresh to be cast on someone with Sublimation active, while Evoker's Roll and Ballads will work. I find it curious that SE singled out the one spell over the others. It would have made more sense to me to have the ability stop all 3.

Also, while sublimation is GREAT, I don't think it's as effective as some people think it is. For instance, as a galka with over 1200 hp, I can get max 308 MP from Sublimation. However, in order to get that amount, I need to let Sublimation be active for over 7 minutes. It is nice that I can put stoneskin up and rest MP, if needed, but it isn't like anyone with access to sublimation can just activate the ability every 25 seconds and expect to get more than 16-20 MP back.

You're not looking at the bigger picture here, though.

Conserve MP, 10% off spells under thier respective Arts, B skill Aspir, Sublimation, a +hMP build and Clear Mind III.

Any form of refresh would be like giving ice to an eskimo at this point. They have a lot of ways to save MP and get it back.

Also, I don't get the witchhunt RDMs are firing up against BRD and CORs with SCH's update. We have a different kinds of refresh. Its not magical. No RDM out there furrowed thier brows when these jobs got merit traits that trump Refresh in total duration and power, Winning Streak especially. Hell, I can average 3 MP easy and raise it to 4 or 5 MP a tick. BRD can only two hour and use merit abilities to hope to compete with that.

Or have full relic horn, but I digress.

Also, I don't get the witchhunt RDMs are firing up against BRD and CORs with SCH's update. We have a different kinds of refresh. Its not magical. No RDM out there furrowed thier brows when these jobs got merit traits that trump Refresh in total duration and power, Winning Streak especially. Hell, I can average 3 MP easy and raise it to 4 or 5 MP a tick. BRD can only two hour and use merit abilities to hope to compete with that.

Or have full relic horn, but I digress.

The thing is, none of the above prevent us from helping too. Sure, you're better at it, but we can still throw it that much further into overdrive. Why sweat something that still allows us to cooperate? Sublimation was a source of panic for us because it doesn't.

You do, however, make a good point that Refresh is still better than Sublimation much of the time. Hopefully that will be apparent enough that there won't be much conflict. I still worry that it's going to be a bumpy ride, though... -- Pteryx

Maybe because Refresh is White Magic, and Sublimation only effects White/Black Magic? So non-magic refresh like Ballad or Auto-Refresh stacks with Sublimation?

Does anyone try stack Juice with Sublimation?

Thankfully im glad Refresh cant be cast on it. Will be a few months before players learn how to work in refresh around it so i can happily run around anon without the ol' Refresh Can I have it. Its going to be a nice break from being a party bitch for a while.

Any form of refresh would be like giving ice to an eskimo at this point. They have a lot of ways to save MP and get it back.


Exactly, so, why do they only prohibit only one of them?

I haven't done my SCH AF yet, but for those that have. The Enhanced Light/Dark Arts (from body/legs) add +15 to corresponding skill . . . . .. where does that put SCH's magic skill then? at A-? or A?

Exactly, so, why do they only prohibit only one of them?

rdm/sch?

Exactly, so, why do they only prohibit only one of them?

Probably because the system considers Sublimation as Refresh.

Why punish COR and BRD and radically change the way Rolls and Songs work just to make Ballads and Evoker's not work with Sublimation? They're totally different forms of Refresh, totally different duration and criteria for thier values.

I haven't done my SCH AF yet, but for those that have. The Enhanced Light/Dark Arts (from body/legs) add +15 to corresponding skill . . . . .. where does that put SCH's magic skill then? at A-? or A?

Level 61
A+ = 207
B+ = 199 (199 + 15 = 214) Higher than A+.

Level 75
A+ = 276
B+ = 256 (256 + 15 = 271) Between A- and A+.

EDIT: Changed B- to B+.

AF Body and legs are really, really awesome items.

Arts give B+ not B-

so its 256+15=271...so just above A-

I thought arts was solid B rating, not B+?

Light Arts - FFXIclopedia - a Wikia Gaming wiki (http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Light_Arts)

Notes/Description

* Using Light Arts gives a scholar access to abilities that enhance white magic.
* Light Arts reduces MP costs for White Magic spells by 10%, and increases MP costs for Black Magic spells by 20%.
* Light Arts decreases casting time for white magic by 5-10%, and increases casting time for black magic by 20%.
* Light Arts reduces recast time for white magic by 10%, and increases recast time for black magic by 20%.
* The change in spell cost and recast times will be reflected in the spell menu.
* Raises the skill cap for Enhancing Magic, Enfeebling Magic, Divine Magic, and Healing Magic from a D rating to a B rating. Note that this will increase sub job skills to the main job's level at a B rating.
* Raises your divine, enhancing, enfeebling, and healing magic. If your main job skill is 0-200 it brings it to 246, 210-250, it's raised to 256, 256-276, it has no effect. This is on Lv75 jobs.
* Skill ups are still possible even if you are over the skill cap after using Light Arts (assuming you were below cap before using Light Arts).

I thought arts was solid B rating, not B+?

Light Arts - FFXIclopedia - a Wikia Gaming wiki (http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Light_Arts)

It has it listed as 256, which is B+. Both Wikis have this as the listing. Best thing we can do is ask someone who has SCH leveled past 60. That would give a concrete answer.

Probably because the system considers Sublimation as Refresh.

Why punish COR and BRD and radically change the way Rolls and Songs work just to make Ballads and Evoker's not work with Sublimation? They're totally different forms of Refresh, totally different duration and criteria for thier values.

OK, but replace COR or BRD with RDM and Rolls and Songs with Spell. SE obviously went through some trouble to make it so refresh and sublimation don't work together. I'd like to understand why.

Do they feel that BRD/SCH or COR/SCH is OK because they don't have a native MP pool? What's the difference between having 3-5 MP refresh via Ballad or Evoker's Roll and using sublimation, and having 3 MP Refresh and using sublimation? The end result should be the same.

I can see no reason why the system should consider sublimation and refresh the same effect. They've clearly got different symbols. Their effects are completely different. I can see how sublimation and convert wouldn't be able to be used together, as they kind of accomplish the same thing, but the way the Refresh and Sublimation don't work together doesn't make sense to me.

I would just like to hear why they implemented Sublimation in this manner. I'm not sure that RDM/SCH would be broken, and I fail to see how having refresh on me while I've got Sublimation active is any different from having Ballads or Evoker's Roll.

I think its because as SE stated long ago "Considering spells that will allow red mage more time on the front line". They didnt say they were going to add new spells like the community assumed. I think refresh as well as haste have been targeted for rdms to cast less in accordance with their consideration.

I will talk about sublimation first and follow with the rest of my hypothesis.

1 Refresh
SCH, /SCH, Sublimation

Sublimation restores MP to be used at a later time, i call it "Ghetto Convert". This apparently can take seveal minutes for a full charge. It is usable with stoneskin to negate the HP loss and allow for resting between fights. In accordance with my hypothesis refresh isnt cast on top of sublimation, because this is sevral extra minutes a RDM will have with one less in the refresh cycle. Allowing them to do extra things be it melee,cure,buff,debuff,nuke.

SMN- Syphon MP

SMN's ability alows it to restore a few hundred MP evey 5 minutes by "Syphoning" MP from a Elemental Spirit. I like to call this "Mega Aspir". A SMN using Mega aspir is not totally devoid of refresh, how ever in combanation with "Ghetto Convert" Refresh will be needed to cast less on a SCH.

The haste effect.

With the advent of sublimation more mage jobs are going to be considered welcome in high end merit parties. Typically TP burns, where RDM was the #1 choice because of the energizer bunny effect.

WHM/SCH

WHM has a very good gift, and used correctly takes another spell out of the RDM's hands, that spell is Haste. Now generally RDM's and WHM's typically would split this task. (and should regardless). The thing is now WHM has a semi enegizer battery effect and can carry haste cycles and main heal with out needing to be overly concerned with MP. This extra casting ability provides even more time to a RDM to melee,buff,heal,debuff,nuke etc.

SMN/SCH

SMN has the gravey ability to use hastega. While using a sch sub the smn has even more MP to work with as well as an arsenal of -na spells at its disposal,and of course aspir and drain. The much improved MP efficent SMN can now cast hastega more often with out the need to worry about MP levels as much as it did before. Again allowing the RDM more time to melee,buff,debuff,heal,nuke etc.

This SCH ability seems to be SE's answer to RDM's complaints about casting loads etc. Which to me makes sense since you cant refresh someone under sublimation, but they can receive ballad and evokers roll.

Sorry for going into to much detail but Just got out of a party with 2x SAM/WAR, 1x WAR/NIN, 1x BRD/NIN 1xSMN/SCH 1X RDM/NIN fighting mamool ja. Was really excited to post how well the back line rolled, I had time to melee, enfeeble, MB. I rarely used Refresh outside of myself because the SMN was in constant sublimation and every 5 minutes would Mega Aspir as well as double Ballad. It was the most fun ive had in a TP Burn party in about 6 months. It really had that old school Traditional Party feel without the OMG it Hurts to TP BURN felling I received for the last 2 years.(Sam Self SC's FTW)


On a completely unrelated note has anyone tried using AoE enspells yet with 256+22 enhancing magic i get 19 base damage on the strong element (6 on the weak ftr) Just curious to know if SCH matches, should be about 17-19 dmg.

OK, but replace COR or BRD with RDM and Rolls and Songs with Spell. SE obviously went through some trouble to make it so refresh and sublimation don't work together. I'd like to understand why.

Do they feel that BRD/SCH or COR/SCH is OK because they don't have a native MP pool? What's the difference between having 3-5 MP refresh via Ballad or Evoker's Roll and using sublimation, and having 3 MP Refresh and using sublimation? The end result should be the same.

I can see no reason why the system should consider sublimation and refresh the same effect. They've clearly got different symbols. Their effects are completely different. I can see how sublimation and convert wouldn't be able to be used together, as they kind of accomplish the same thing, but the way the Refresh and Sublimation don't work together doesn't make sense to me.

I would just like to hear why they implemented Sublimation in this manner. I'm not sure that RDM/SCH would be broken, and I fail to see how having refresh on me while I've got Sublimation active is any different from having Ballads or Evoker's Roll.

Highlighted the best possible answer.

Think about it - RDM gets Convert, Refresh. These two ablilites alone allow for an insane amount of endurance.

COR and BRD have to swap out thier refreshes at some point if they do go /WHM. At some point, melee buffs need to go up and that means other buffs on the COR or BRD have to go down. Refresh stays up no matter how many buffs RDM applies to himself and thereby does not suffer the same potential MP shortages BRD and especially COR can face. Sublimation not only grants them access to good stuff from /WHM, but lets them run around without this pontetial loss to MP.

This also struck me as I pondered the potentially needless addition of Dancer's Roll. I wanted it so badly to be Haste, but what's the one other thing that BRD and RDM have that COR doesn't?

Regen.

Regen actually helps negate Sublimation to a degree, this allows COR to run around and not only have a means of making up the penalty they suffer for using it. At the same time, they can afford to /SCH and get MP back with sublimation.

But really, I think RDMs are getting wound up over nothing. SCH and /SCHdoesn't have to use Sublimation if they have a RDM, BRD or COR. They can just stop using it and take those. Sublimation is placed under sub level so it can be be used by other mages and jobs for a little more MP endurance than they had before. Being utterly dependant on COR, BRD and RDM is problematic since there's not always one available (or in RDM's case AFK or pretending to be.)

Does this mean RDM, BRD or COR will be less desireable for PTs? No, absolutely not, its just if people need to do mission on a small group or EXP PT, RDM, BRD and COR stopped being a *must* and instead became an option just like every other job.

Sublimation restores MP to be used at a later time, i call it "Ghetto Convert".

[ ... ]

SMN- Syphon MP

SMN's ability alows it to restore a few hundred MP evey 5 minutes by "Syphoning" MP from a Elemental Spirit. I like to call this "Mega Aspir".

... Why not just call them "Sublimation" and "Elemental Siphon" instead? :rolleyes:




WHM/SCH

WHM has a very good gift, and used correctly takes another spell out of the RDM's hands, that spell is Haste. Now generally RDM's and WHM's typically would split this task. (and should regardless). The thing is now WHM has a semi enegizer battery effect and can carry haste cycles and main heal with out needing to be overly concerned with MP. This extra casting ability provides even more time to a RDM
This makes no sens