Update March 08 Your opinion

[MrMageo]

Ok seeing as we are still in the dark about how the are going to make there hinted change to melee on RDM im curious to think what the rest of you believe.

Some Rules

1. No flames, counter views, of peoples opinions
2. No suggestions of new abilities just a yes,no, and a breif why
3. This is not a discssion this is a poll please keep discussions to the many other topics

[Sabaron]

Personally, I believe that since they haven't mentioned RDM at all, that they may not do anything to it at this time. I also don't feel that RDM should get any buffing until the jobs everyone considers sub-par get theirs. DRG is in need of some late game assistance. SMN is missing some teeth (it's been a mediocre main heal for how long now?). SCH needs a power up, and so does PUP. 3/4 of these jobs are getting buffs in the next update as noted in previous information.

You left out the option for RDM will not be altered significantly, but that sort of falls under the "No" category.

[MrMageo]

Heh forgot to put my why.

Option2.

I dont think any update will be enough to make RDM melee change in the eyes of the community. Unless they seriously overpower RDM,or under power its spell casting. I think RDM's "Cure-Bot" style of play is going to be hard-imposible to cange.

[Icemage]

Option 4: I'll just wait and see what they actually do and reserve judgment until then.


Icemage

[Murphie]

I was going to make "I don't care about RDM melee one way or the other" as option 4, Icemage. Can we make yours 5?

[Aksannyi]

RDM melee is just fine. I was soloing on RDM/DRK yesterday and pulling out 500-800 Vorpals without even touching my /DRK /ja. And my melee gear is not that great. You could even say that I don't have a melee setup. I bet if I geared myself really well I'd be parsing just as well as some heavy hitters.

[Callisto]

I just got off the phone with a SGM and they'll be adding a sword with 1/tick refresh, +10 MAcc/MAB, and +20 Acc/Atk, drops off a level 90 mob that is Bind/Grav resistant but must be DoT solo'd.

Screenshots of the phone call coming soon, slow Photobucket.





















Ok, ok, for serious: I personally don't think that a RDM melee will be in this update, I think it'll come further down the road, maybe in 1-2.

In terms of impact on the community, short of them giving an sword like stated above, it'll be next to nothing. RDM soloing would pick up a bit, which would be really nice in some situations, but in reality RDM melee isn't so looked down upon because it's so bad, it is because backline RDM is borderline broken and is capable of single-handedly impacting a party in ways that a single DD cannot.

Nothing is going to come that will revolutionize RDM gameplay, because if it did, it would destroy balance, cross the streams, and mass asplosions and penis would ensue(and this is coming from possibly the largest proponent of melee RDM on these forums, so don't think these are biased comments).

[Feba]

Can someone tell me when we started being able to vote on facts? I saw this on CNN earlier too.

If we can vote for facts, can I vote that the sky is white? A white sky would be cool.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

"Wait, Egon, you said crossing the streams was bad."

[Selphiie The Enchantress]

I think, no matter what SE does to RDM, the community will still find reasons to shove them in the back. Haste/cure/refresh bot.

Although just in my opinion on RDM, although i know its not the place to discuss it, but meh, RDM is the Balanced mage, they should be ready for any situation with the right subjobs, if they are needed in the back, fine, if they are needed in the front, fine, if they need to kite/tank fine. Its a very flexible job, but alot of RDMs these days don't know this and only have like ONE subjob and 90% of the time its /blm. So don't be surprised when you get the "-_-" look from your leaders when you say you don't have /drk for something like Dynamis Lord.

[Callisto]

So don't be surprised when you get the "-_-" look from your leaders when you say you don't have /drk for something like Dynamis Lord.

You should see the text faces I get when I tell LSmates I'm coming /RNG or some shit like that to meripo lol...

[Feba]

I saw a taru RDM/RNG kicking ass once.

For some reason, he was down in Toraimorai screwdrivering Pugils.




Actually, come to think of it, he wasn't kicking ass so much as completely bizarre.

[Raydeus]

I can't wait for all the cool stuff we'll get on this update! :thumbsup:

New H2h weapons, a bow and probably a piece or two of lvl 51 equipment with INT/MND +1 and healing HP. SE really spoils RDMs. :shocked:

[Icemage]

I can't wait for all the cool stuff we'll get on this update! :thumbsup:

New H2h weapons, a bow and probably a piece or two of lvl 51 equipment with INT/MND +1 and healing HP. SE really spoils RDMs. :shocked:
Hah! :)

Really all I would want would be a mild upgrade to Enspell damage. Making RDM into something resembling even Blue Mage in combat capacity would be encroaching on the uniqueness of that job, so I don't see S-E ever really doing that now that Blue Mage is in the game (not that Blue Mages are all that and a bag of chips in combat, but they're certainly still noticeably better at it than Red Mages).

If anything, I would rather that Square-Enix give BLUE Mages something more. They need the help far more.


Icemage

[eticket109]

"Wait, Egon, you said crossing the streams was bad."

"Tell him about the Twinkie."

"What about the Twinkie?"

[Pteryx]

Honestly, I believe that SE really isn't sure what to do to help RDM melee. It is a terribly fine line they have to figure out how to make RDM walk, after all, and they haven't yet sounded like they've figured out anything specific to try. As such, I'm not expecting a RDM melee update yet.

For now, the most I'm hoping for is more light melee gear -- not just for us, but for THF, DNC, BLU, and NIN (who depend in no small part on damage to hold hate, remember). Some better melee gear for all us semi-squishies would go a long way. -- Pteryx

[Selphiie The Enchantress]

Option 4: I'll just wait and see what they actually do and reserve judgment until then.


Icemage

/nod/nod

I remember there were huge arguments on my old LS over WOTG jobs, back when they just said new jobs where coming out but we didn't know what, there were hardcore supporters of "Chocobo Knight"

"oh there are pictures of chocobo knights on the preview, that means thats the new jobsss"

Boy you know when Dancer and Scholar were released her felt like a doodoo head hehe.

I say we wait until the official information is released before actually trying to talk about it.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

I don't really see RDM on the priority list. Given the land mass of the expansion alone the WHM and BLM teleportation spells are a logical addition. Two new jobs would obviously mean two new Phantom Rolls for COR. New mobs and family types would mean we should get new Blue Magic not too long in. Adjustments to SMN are a long time coming and needed, PUP is still getting tweaks here and there.

DNC and SCH are still new, so adjustments to those jobs are also a natural choice

There's a lot of other jobs that could use tweaks, but these are ones I'd put ahead of all the others, too. With the exception of SMN and PUP, the rest are timely adjustments and the sort I'd hope would come soon after the release of an expansion.

[Selphiie The Enchantress]

Please don't let BLUs be able to learn Gnole spells....

-stays away from BLUs in Ballista from then on-

[Neomage]

I do not think that RDM really needs any major melee adjustment. You can not honestly expect a RDM to get the full powers of casting AND melee. Sure, I see some room for improvement, maybe better melee gear (I see no reason why an adjustment to the job itself is needed) and Tier II En-Spells, but aside from that, I think RDM melee is already decent with a proper support job You can not expect to get a full line of spells from /WHM or /BLM and still be able to pull out Vorpal Blades. If you sub something like DRK or WAR, your melee will improve at the cost of your magic. Simply put, you can not be the "Jack of all trades, master of all."

[Sevv]

Ok seeing as we are still in the dark about how the are going to make there hinted change to melee on RDM im curious to think what the rest of you believe.

Some Rules

1. No flames, counter views, of peoples opinions
2. No suggestions of new abilities just a yes,no, and a breif why
3. This is not a discssion this is a poll please keep discussions to the many other topics

They did add a place where rdm can melee, it is called campaign and they are updating it

[Mhurron]

They did add a place where rdm can melee, it is called campaign and they are updating it
And smaller EXP/Merit groups.

[Sevv]

And smaller EXP/Merit groups.

I'm still not letting a rdm melee in those

[Mhurron]

Try and stop me.

Actually it wouldn't be that hard since no one ever does it.

[Sevv]

Try and stop me.

Actually it wouldn't be that hard since no one ever does it.

Uses his powers to stop you... oh wait you would need a pt first

[nanatsu]

I do not think that RDM really needs any major melee adjustment. You can not honestly expect a RDM to get the full powers of casting AND melee. Sure, I see some room for improvement, maybe better melee gear (I see no reason why an adjustment to the job itself is needed) and Tier II En-Spells, but aside from that, I think RDM melee is already decent with a proper support job You can not expect to get a full line of spells from /WHM or /BLM and still be able to pull out Vorpal Blades. If you sub something like DRK or WAR, your melee will improve at the cost of your magic. Simply put, you can not be the "Jack of all trades, master of all."

Okay, my views on the RDM job have sort of mellowed out after a while and I really don't think they need to be first or second or even tenth in ways of improvement, but I do want to point something out here. You said you can't honestly expect a RDM to get the full powers of casting and melee but that's close to what blu is isn't it? I'm not saying I wanna see RDMs with A sword skill running around at the moment. Just saying that BLU is already pretty heavy on casting and sports an A sword skill. So... yeah.

[Raydeus]

Things that could help RDM become more melee friendly without any major adjustments are pretty easy to implement.

B+ dagger/sword skill - It might not seem like much but that +6 skill would make a difference.
Better sword and (specially) dagger options - I still don't know why RDMs don't have access to a dagger like Sirocco. Also, I'd understand if RDM didn't have access to better weapons if Enspell dmg was applied to WS but it isn't. Specially considering how low our STR/Att ratings are to begin with.
Enspell II - More damage/acc bonus or added effect, either way this is the least they can do. The core of RDM melee is Enspell dmg, improving this along with giving us better DoTs would help RDM be more efficient without changing the way the job plays.


I wonder if SE will ever do anything or if they are so afraid of all the nerf whinners to do it. :rolleyes:

[Yellow Mage]

Hah! :)

Really all I would want would be a mild upgrade to Enspell damage. Making RDM into something resembling even Blue Mage in combat capacity would be encroaching on the uniqueness of that job, so I don't see S-E ever really doing that now that Blue Mage is in the game (not that Blue Mages are all that and a bag of chips in combat, but they're certainly still noticeably better at it than Red Mages).

If anything, I would rather that Square-Enix give BLUE Mages something more. They need the help far more.


Icemage

So, wait: according to you, Red Mages are fine as is, and Blue Mages are the ones who need help? And that we would be encroaching upon their turf, despite the painfully obvious cause of the "You want a melee-mage, go to BLU" arguments?

What kind of screwed up logic is that?

Okay, my views on the RDM job have sort of mellowed out after a while and I really don't think they need to be first or second or even tenth in ways of improvement, but I do want to point something out here. You said you can't honestly expect a RDM to get the full powers of casting and melee but that's close to what blu is isn't it? I'm not saying I wanna see RDMs with A sword skill running around at the moment. Just saying that BLU is already pretty heavy on casting and sports an A sword skill. So... yeah.

Blue Mages have it fine as is. Red Mages haven't had an update, at all, ever, since Refresh and Convert (excluding all-job updates, which were all jokes for RDM). And S-E even acknowledged they would like to see more Red Mages on the front line than now.

As for the OP, whether or not Red Mages get much of anything in this next update is still mostly in the air. However, as is, the probability an update doesn't do anything for Red Mage in particular (all-job updates obviously excluded) is approximately equal to the probability that the sun will rise tomorrow.

[Murphie]

DIDN'T WE JUST HAVE THIS CONVERSATION KILL ANOTHER THREAD?

Seriously.

[Aksannyi]

RDM.
Is.
Fine.
The.
Way.
It.
Is.

Seriously.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

So, wait: according to you, Red Mages are fine as is, and Blue Mages are the ones who need help? And that we would be encroaching upon their turf, despite the painfully obvious cause of the "You want a melee-mage, go to BLU" arguments?

What kind of screwed up logic is that?

Blue Mages have it fine as is. Red Mages haven't had an update, at all, ever, since Refresh and Convert (excluding all-job updates, which were all jokes for RDM). And S-E even acknowledged they would like to see more Red Mages on the front line than now.

As for the OP, whether or not Red Mages get much of anything in this next update is still mostly in the air. However, as is, the probability an update doesn't do anything for Red Mage in particular (all-job updates obviously excluded) is approximately equal to the probability that the sun will rise tomorrow.

BLU has some problems as far as the nuking side goes. Burst Affinity is a joke - BLU elemental magic is hardly as effective as the mob counterparts, even with use of mage gear. The high MP cost of thier best physical magic is also a strain on thier ability to DD at endgame levels. Cloak, Sanction Refresh and set spell Auto Refresh only go so far.

BRDs refuse to refresh them, and hopefully we'll see the AoE-to-single target update adjust that, but they'll always have that problem with CORs and like DRKs, they're lowest on the RDM's refresh list.

Either the elemental magic needs to be more effective or SE needs to lower the cost on Physical Blue Magic to give BLUs a bit more endurance than they had. More or less, BLU's problem is the same as SMN's - MP endurance.

Don't let the A- in Sword fool you, BLU's core damage is through spells and to keep up with other DDs, they gotta spam them. The high cost of spells hurts quite a bit.

[MrMageo]

Well thanks YM congratulations. You just blew up a simple question and answer thread into another crap shoot topic of RDM melee, RD vs BLU, like i said at the start if you want to debate these issues simply do to one of the other 13000 topics found on the internet and post your shit there. We all know about Blue Mge we all know about RDM. Now is there anyway i can block people from posting on here cuz i have 3 in mind id like to do it to, or at least delete there posts so this dosent spin out of control like refresh II did last week.

[Pteryx]

and like DRKs, they're lowest on the RDM's refresh list.

Not on my Refresh list. In fact, on my list -- you know, the one we've got stickied -- BLUs are #4 out of 9. They go through MP way too fast not to Refresh fairly early. -- Pteryx

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Now is there anyway i can block people from posting on here cuz i have 3 in mind id like to do it to, or at least delete there posts so this dosent spin out of control like refresh II did last week.

You can blacklist members you don't like, but you cannot prevent any of us from having an opinion on a topic here on the forums. People have a right to opinion whether you like it or not.

And as far as I remember, you made a turn for the worse in the Refresh II thread. YM just brought up an aside to this topic and its been addressed.

Additionally, you made a topic about RDM getting an update, we know where that discussion would lead since it concerns RDM melee. Plenty of RDMs that still can't get over the addition of BLU.

[MrMageo]

Not on my Refresh list. In fact, on my list -- you know, the one we've got stickied -- BLUs are #4 out of 9. They go through MP way too fast not to Refresh fairly early. -- Pteryx

Well if you cant beat em join em.

Nor on mine

ME>PLD>WHM=SMN=SCH>BLU>DRK>BLM>/WHM (BRD/CPR etc)

I suppose its a valid point you bring up. Im not going to blist someone because they said something. As for the turn for the worst it was acctually a combonation of yourself and myself that sunk that thread. I get really pig headed when my knowledge of something is debatd by someone who dosent have the knowledge of the topic.

As for BLU vs RDM its not a viable comparison.

Blue Mage- Uses MP to devaste an nemy using Physical and Magical Spells
Red Mage- Uses MP to defend and wear enemies down over time
Blue Mage- Uses Melee to assist in overall Damage and increase power of spells with Affinity
Red Mage- Uses Melee to further the DoT of an enemy. TP is used to assist in damage with SC's, or to regain MPusing energy drain(dagger)

I accept Blue as another Job in this game but not as something to throw around to say if you want to melee as RDM lvl BLU. The Jobs are vastly different. I guess you could compare them to DRK and PLD, where BLU is the offensive side of magic(DRK) and RDM isthe defensive side(PLD).

[Yellow Mage]

You can blacklist members you don't like, but you cannot prevent any of us from having an opinion on a topic here on the forums. People have a right to opinion whether you like it or not.

And as far as I remember, you made a turn for the worse in the Refresh II thread. YM just brought up an aside to this topic and its been addressed.

Ah, the parts of your post I can agree with. I do love them so.

(Personally, ever since the Refresh II thread, I merely /blist'd MrMageo.)

Additionally, you made a topic about RDM getting an update, we know where that discussion would lead since it concerns RDM melee. Plenty of RDMs that still can't get over the addition of BLU.

Ah, the part of your post I can disagree with. Many an argument were made from parts such as these.

Blue Mage has nothing to do with Red Mage wanting to melee. Which is why we get so upset every time you bring it up, and, thus, is why we seem to be upset at Blue Mage itself (and kind of are). Red Mage should never equal Blue Mage, and I think everybody can accept that.

That doesn't mean they can't both be frontline mages. Their styles are just so radically different, you're practically comparing apples and oranges here.

The only thing we don't like about Blue Mage is the community just loves to shove it in to Red Mages' faces. "That's BLU; go lvl BLU," "Hey, doesn't BLU do that already? I'm not sure," "You can't do it, BLU does already; you'd be encroaching on their turf."

I would like to point out that Red Mage was here first, and, yet, hasn't actually seen many more updates than Blue Mage has. And, yet, people are all acting like we want to steal from them.

I'll have you know all we want is what was promised to us long before Blue Mages hit the concept art. And we've been wanting it for just as long, as well.

[MrMageo]

Thats not entirely true YM, we werent ever really promised anything involving melee prior to ToA raping our job. Pre ToA i used to melee in parties to SC with the third wheel and Sams and MB off them, as well as back up heal. Typical parties were WHM,BLM,RDM a Tank and 2x DD.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Ah, the part of your post I can disagree with. Many an argument were made from parts such as these.

Blue Mage has nothing to do with Red Mage wanting to melee. Which is why we get so upset every time you bring it up, and, thus, is why we seem to be upset at Blue Mage itself (and kind of are). Red Mage should never equal Blue Mage, and I think everybody can accept that.

That doesn't mean they can't both be frontline mages. Their styles are just so radically different, you're practically comparing apples and oranges here.

The only thing we don't like about Blue Mage is the community just loves to shove it in to Red Mages' faces. "That's BLU; go lvl BLU," "Hey, doesn't BLU do that already? I'm not sure," "You can't do it, BLU does already; you'd be encroaching on their turf."

I would like to point out that Red Mage was here first, and, yet, hasn't actually seen many more updates than Blue Mage has. And, yet, people are all acting like we want to steal from them.

I'll have you know all we want is what was promised to us long before Blue Mages hit the concept art. And we've been wanting it for just as long, as well.

SE never lied about what the promised for RDM, RDM got updated, its role changed before the community and the community does not care for RDMs meleeing in thier PTs. Guess what? Your job is not alone in that issue.

Its really not SE's problem what the community does with a job. SE can not like it, they can try to influence us to do something else, but if they don't feel the job itself needs to change, then the community will use the jobs as they see fit and if the RDMs conform to what the community wants in pick up groups against IT++ or TP burns, then RDMs have no one but themselves to blame for being healers in PTs.

It is within your power to form your own PTs.
It is within your power to go to other camps.
It is within your power to seek like-minded players.
It is within your power to form small PTs.
It is NOT within your power to make us invite you for something we don't want you to do.

Some days I don't want to do what I get invited to do. I don't take the PTs that want me to do it because I don't have to.

[MrMageo]

It is within your power to form your own PTs.
It is within your power to go to other camps.
It is within your power to seek like-minded players.
It is within your power to form small PTs.
It is NOT within yout power to make us invite you for something we don't want you to do.

Some days I don't want to do what I get invited to do. I don't take the PTs that want me to do it because I don't have to.

No offense BBQ but that is the first thing i think i agree with you 100% on. I have been saying that for a long time. The community molded RDM and the players bent over and took it. I wont lie ive taken my easy 20K xp parties ive taken my hard fought 8K/gr xp parties both have their time and place and if you dont like [Main] [Healing] [No Thanks!], [Skill Chain]+[Magic Burst] [Party] [Yes, Please!]

those 2 sayings are your friends to not get asked to parties you dont like. Often times if you put JP/NA with that Japanese players will grab you. But you best know all about skill chains and magic bursting or you will be dropped.

[Yellow Mage]

SE never lied about what the promised for RDM

I never said they did. In fact, I constantly hope that they didn't.

RDM got updated

When? Four years ago?

Guess what? Your job is not alone in that issue.

I never said that Red Mage was alone in this issue.

Its really not SE's problem what the community does with a job. SE can not like it, they can try to influence us to do something else, but if they don't feel the job itself needs to change, then the community will use the jobs as they see fit and if the RDMs conform to what the community wants in pick up groups against IT++ or TP burns, then RDMs have no one but themselves to blame for being healers in PTs.

It is within your power to form your own PTs.
It is within your power to go to other camps.
It is within your power to seek like-minded players.
It is within your power to form small PTs.
It is NOT within yout power to make us invite you for something we don't want you to do.

Some days I don't want to do what I get invited to do. I don't take the PTs that want me to do it because I don't have to.

You know what? I'm kind of getting tired of this "don't take invites you don't want" argument, because I don't. You're telling me to do things I already do.

And, really, I think this old post sums up the rest of the population beautifully:

We can spout noble personal philosophies and pretty ideals all we please, but so long as we don't argue the reality of the matter. The reality is that people, like all things, will take the path of least resistance. Even the majority of RDMs.

Hell, when ToAU was first released, nobody saw what would become of RDM. Even I couldn't see the future when my SAM buddy invited me to Bhaflau Thickets, offering the the insane exp rate chaining Puks and the occasional Mamool Ja, with a simple setup of four melees /NIN, a BRD, and myself main healing. Even I couldn't see the soul-sucking, amoral virus the phenomenon was to become.

At any rate, you talk about blaming the RDM community for not taking a stand against main healing, for pigeon-holing RDM in the place it is now. But while the cause is evident, none have any right in placing blame, since we all have a habit of going with the smoothest flow. Better instead to blame the FFXI community at large, for shunning BLM, shunning PLD, pushing WHM to second-choice healer, and eschewing hate management, as well as basic tactics(Skill Chains), in favor of more mindless hacking and slashing to satisfy their parser results.

But hey, don't blame the community at large, right? They're just doing what's most efficient, right?

If it were a simple matter of the game being the choice of the player, of playing RDM as a manner of choice, then I wouldn't have to worry about soloing(my personal choice), and sacrificing the merit-per-hour parties that require I put aside only my self-respect to main heal for them.

Am I comfortable with the fact that playing how I choose might cost me significantly? Actually, I am. I haven't been in a party outside of large-scale events for six months now, and haven't looked back.

However, I have a rather large beef when choosing to play a job as it was intended somehow becomes anathema, while playing it was a watered-down version of another sees boundless reward. A bigger beef still, when people somehow think that's solely the fault in social consciousness of one portion of the community, and don't stop to consider even once that changes in gameplay might have brought about that fault in social consciousness.

Yes, it IS in part the fault of RDMs that complain about backlining, then turn right around and perpetuate it. But don't ignore the blatantly large changes in gameplay that brought us to this point:

RDM's difficulty in credibly contributing to frontline melee damage...

... the imbalance in Healing skill that makes WHM's capability in it easily replaced by RDM...

... the current burn phenomina that that requires so little responsibility in hate management, tactical spell use, and(seemingly) so little effort in healing.

And for the record, while I believe that S-E might be pleased with the overall popularity RDM enjoys, I'd wager against you that they believe it plays at all like they'd intended.

[Murphie]

So, when is the fact that no one is going to give any ground on either side of this stupid argument going to sink in? It's not worth talking about, because you're all just going around in circles, repeating the same information over and over again, and not convincing anyone of anything.

[Malevolent]

[quote=Omgwtfbbqkitten;764544]You can blacklist members you don't like, but you cannot prevent any of us from having an opinion on a topic here on the forums. People have a right to opinion whether you like it or not.quote]

When the forum bank system came back wasn't there a way you could use your gil to block a user from posting? I remember seeing something like that...

On topic i think Rdm only RSE would be a plus but not a game breaker...a better sword skill would awesome it would make the Buzzard Tusk usefull. Tier 2 en spells should be a must.

[Murphie]

RDM only RSE wouldn't be RSE. It would be JSE.

[WishMaster3K]

I gave up on RDM Melee.

My PLD just dinged 70. :(

[Electricity Gone Human]

Is it me or does most of the job forum section's activity just focus its central attention on RDM? I'm honestly flattered, but damn.


As for BLU vs RDM its not a viable comparison.

Blue Mage- Uses MP to devaste an nemy using Physical and Magical Spells
Red Mage- Uses MP to defend and wear enemies down over time
Blue Mage- Uses Melee to assist in overall Damage and increase power of spells with Affinity
Red Mage- Uses Melee to further the DoT of an enemy. TP is used to assist in damage with SC's, or to regain MPusing energy drain(dagger)

I accept Blue as another Job in this game but not as something to throw around to say if you want to melee as RDM lvl BLU. The Jobs are vastly different. I guess you could compare them to DRK and PLD, where BLU is the offensive side of magic(DRK) and RDM isthe defensive side(PLD).

Quoted for truth. As a Career Red Mage also being a (future) Career Blue Mage...where BLU is the Yin, RDM is the Yang. I couldn't have it any other way.



It is within your power to form your own PTs.
It is within your power to go to other camps.
It is within your power to seek like-minded players.
It is within your power to form small PTs.
It is within your power to EXP in Campaign and solo your Skill caps later.
It is NOT within your power to make us invite you for something we don't want you to do.

Psst! You forgot one. :thumbsup:

also, WOOT, 100th post! lulz.

[MrMageo]

Well the resaults are in, and from what i can see RDM is overlooked again, with the exception of enspell changes. But this isnt enough to radically change how RDM is viewed unless we are talking about heavy boost to enspells from enhancing magic.

However /SCH looks to be more welcome now with the MP regeneration ability, will make a nice addition to times in between convert timers (if that ever happens).
As well as offer us additional white and black magic. (Which we probably already have.)

Well im pretty disapointed overall and guess my hold out for retirement wasnt worth. 20 days left and I am out GL with your ingame adventures RDM's. Mr.Mageo out.

[Icemage]

Whine whine whine... seriously, will it ever stop?

2002: Red Mage was horrible.
No Refresh, no Convert, no Phalanx.

2003: Above 3 were added, Red Mage finally creeps into its own niche.

2004-current: Red Mages everywhere whining about how left out they feel because they can't swing their swords despite the fact that they are currently the best job in the game.

Seriously, people. If you want so desperately to swing a weapon while in a party situation there are a ton of jobs out there that can do it successfully without making any tradeoffs.

You guys have it so good already, and still you want more. Sheesh.

Complain about Red Mage not getting any updates in forever? Might it have something to do with the job being perfectly fine the way it is already? Last time I checked, Red Mage can wield a decent variety of decent weapons - TWO KINDS. Red Mages can solo stuff that would kill most other jobs outright, and STILL you want more.

You know, every time I see a post like that, I start wishing Square-Enix really WOULD give Red Mage some more melee skills.

...and take away Refresh.

Give it to Scholar or White Mage instead. God only knows, it seems Red Mages don't really want the spell.

And then see how all the people who think they're ever so neglected feel then.


Icemage

[MrMageo]

Your damn right i dont want the spell, has caused me nothing but headaches since i got that magical ding @ 41

[Truece]

Gotta be careful there... Instead of having RDMs complaining about not being able to frontline DD, you'll have RDMs complaining about not getting invites.

[eticket109]

Icemage makes me wish there was a Thanks +5 button.

[Murphie]

I agree. And please, SE, don't listen to RDMs who say "I would gladly give up Refresh," because they are not representative of RDMs as a whole.

[MrMageo]

well ive been going over the update in my head, and in a roundabout way SE has come through with their promise.

Mages that /SCH will no longer need continuos refresh as the can gain MP from losing HP

Haste has been changed so you can only stack so much before its useless, so if a BRD is playing his tunes then Haste spell is not needed.

As for lack of invites, wouldnt happen for meripo im not invited to cast refresh to TP burns cuz im the only one there that needs it

[Murphie]

Yes, but it is the presence of refresh that allows you to cast all the other stuff they need you to cast.

[MrMageo]

That is true. However if i /SCH i get cuts to MP usage, an aditional form of MP conservation, Boosts to Magic skills, as well as (specualtion) WHM -na spells I think /SCH is the new WHM now with regen 2

[Ziero]

well ive been going over the update in my head, and in a roundabout way SE has come through with their promise.

Mages that /SCH will no longer need continuos refresh as the can gain MP from losing HP

Haste has been changed so you can only stack so much before its useless, so if a BRD is playing his tunes then Haste spell is not needed.

As for lack of invites, wouldnt happen for meripo im not invited to cast refresh to TP burns cuz im the only one there that needs it

Wait, so you'd have no refresh and you wouldn't cast haste...why would they need you?

Part of the reason WHY a Rdm can last so long is because of Refresh. If other jobs had that...you wouldn't be the never ending battery.

Hell if Whm got refresh, they could sub Sch and keep a pt alive better then a Rdm could any day.

[Murphie]

Idea - any thought whatsoever = new post?

[MrMageo]

This topic can now be recycled....The Poll is closed update has arrived, Thanks for everyone who voted the winner is Option 2.

[Silent Howler]

I like that thought, give up Refresh and keep Convert. Let us Whms have Refresh so we don't have to compete as a main healer. You Rdms can compete with the other DDs~
Funny how I made a post about that just a couple weeks ago.

[Feenicks]

This topic can now be recycled....The Poll is closed update has arrived, Thanks for everyone who voted the winner is Option 2.
So ... do you feel better that the thread is finished? I'm sure it brought you no end of happiness to see everyone's opinions.

[WishMaster3K]

Any RDMs who want to use their swords in the front line- level Paladin.

That's what I did. I got it all out of my system. Although I DO have a new appreciation for how awesome the Joyeuse is..

Also, MrMageo, please DIAF.

[Vapors]

If you are a rdm and want to melee, than you have no idea how to play rdm. I have been rdm for over 4 years, it was my original job when i started game. you arent going to be able to solo anything super tough using swords. maybe you can solo an IT+ monster with joyeuse and justice over a period of 45 minutes since rdms sword do no dmg and neither does savage blade. i solo zipcana using gravity bind nuke, poison, bio and same with faust. i am also a blu and my sword is 297 and the dmg difference is very noticable. i think most rdms are just retarded. go level blu, instead of trying to make rdm a melee job. suck it up and stop being lazy. if you want to melee then why even bother leveling rdm? i think people just try to make jobs something they arent. when i was a lvl 18 noob i remember rdm/war and meleeing in qufim island. but i did learn. you got lvl 75 rdms that melee. i have full sword merits and u know what. rdm sucks at melee, bottom line. better off equipping hq staves and ton of magic attack gear and just nuking.

[Pteryx]

If you are a rdm and want to melee, than you have no idea how to play rdm.

Since when do desire to to something written on the tin and ignorance that it cannot at present be done necessarily go together? Since when does that desire necessarily mean loathing or sucking at everything else RDM is able to do? I may know better than to run up and stab things with an Enspelled sword, but that doesn't mean I wouldn't like the option to be there, or that said desire stops me from healing or Hasting or Refreshing people or debuffing the mob.

Why do you think we have Enspells in the first place? Or B skill in two weapons? Why do you think SE's been thinking about new frontline-oriented spells for us? They weren't thinking "let's make RDM look like it ought to be able to melee and falsely advertise its ability to, but make it actually no good at it", that's for sure.

For the record, RDM's scarcely better at nuking than it is at melee. There is, however, a difference: if RDM were truly good at nuking, what would RDM nuking do that's unique? RDM melee, at least, has the potential to be different from BLU melee or DRK melee or PLD melee. As such, the only thing you'll hear me suggest WRT helping our nuking is Magic Accuracy Bonus traits -- which help more things aside from that, including the plausibility of melee.

And I think MrMageo takes the whole argument to whiny extremes too. I'm only beating the dead horse right now in response to the fallacy quoted above. Of course, that doesn't prevent the rest of your post from being a threadcrap... -- Pteryx

[Ziero]

Wait, how would you melee differently though? En-spells?

See, I'm not one of those people who will say Rdm should NEVER melee. Infact I'll tell Rdm they should melee when the situation calls for it. But the average high lvl exp pt, which everyone *always* seems to use as the situation no matter what the discussion, is not the time for Rdm melee. Especially if it's a TP burn because that extra Smg that a rdm is doing is just not needed.

But there are still plenty of opportunities for a Rdm to bust out the sword and shield and go to town. Assaults, Campaign, some NM and BC fights, small man exp/farming pts, quests and missions etc etc etc. And in those situations, that lower lvl combat skill and weak dmg weapon could actually be useful. Assuming the Rdm is properly geared to do it the right way at least.

[MrMageo]

Holy Christ, you people and your melee debate, looks like this has become topic 37987 on it.

Im sick of hearing go level Blue, go level PLD. Well guess what you better learn how to melee or your not going to be partying much anymore. Hint Sublimation screwed you back liners, Hint Haste/Refresh not needed in endgame meripo with 2x BRD, 1xBRD, 1XCOR/BRD, Hint RDM not a bitch coasting job anymore. Welcome to post march update fever, SE has made us a more viable front line job but not in the way most of us predicted. Like the spells that made us sit on the back line for RDM, the abilities given to SCH, and SMN have pushed us to the front line. Guess what sublimation makes Refresh redundant, a ghetto convert every 25 seconds if you wish. Finaly i say, all you people that call us melee mages terible and job killers can now get of your lazy, coast-along asses. Im sure as hell glad i can acctually contribute fair damage to a party unlike the rest of you thinking backline haste/refresh is the only way.

SCH has replaced us as a Backline job, much like they have replaced WHM and BLM. An ungodly abomination of White magic and black magic and a ghetto convert. Seems like SE has made its intentions know, War and Thf get bunk abilities, Retaliation is junk, colabrator is on the same timer as Accomplice, and MNK got nothing. BLM+WHM get new ways to be begged to do things for people, and RDM as usual get nothing but stripmined. Hell we cant even call enspells our anymore, because SCH can cast them with 256 skill just like us, and now SCH is free to /rdm exclusivley, for enspells,gravity,dispell oh low and behold they get a whole compliment of enfeebling magic as well. So the original 6 jobs look like sock puppets now. Just there to bridge the gap to the advanced jobs. What else do RDM's have left to do with a SCH in the group other than melee? Pick daisies?

[Mhurron]

But there are still plenty of opportunities for a Rdm to bust out the sword and shield
And now you bust it out with a dance move.

[Murphie]

Jesus Christ. Dramatic much?

[Mhurron]

What else do RDM's have left to do with a SCH in the group other than melee?
Seems to me it would be doubtful that there would be a RDM and a SCH would be in the same party, that is, if you're right about everything else of course.

[Ziero]

Actually

Retaliate has been tested as having at least a 30%ish proc rate and allows full TP gain per hit, meaning that a Tanking War can now do MORE Dmg and gain MORE TP in less time to allow them to hold hate better. And when combined with the TP healing abilities of /Dnc it makes them a viable exp pt tank when properly geared for it. Especially seeing as early tests show that Vit, a defensive stat, is a possible factor in the abilities proc rate.

In other words, they boosted War's Dmg tanking potential.

And though Collaborator shares a timer with Accomplice, it does *not* have the same recast. Infact, Collaborator has a 1 minute recast meaning it can be used far more frequently, and in conjunction with SaTa to help thfs get it right. Though it's half the enmity of Accomplice, it's at 1/5 of the timer, which is a great boost.

Mnk does not need anything because they're already working as they should. They hit stuff, they hit stuff fast they hit stuff hard.

ALL Mages get a boost with Sch's new ability...except Rdm. But this ability *still* isn't as good as Refresh, so when it's availible it will still be better to take the spell. But now, there's not as much as a dependence on Rdms to be in *every single party* post 41, which allows Whm to step up some. Sch did get some sick boostage though, but I don't expect that to remain unchanged for long.

In the end though, Rdm...they're exactly where they were before all this happened. They got nothing new...though they don't really need anything...they're still just as good as they were before and will still do the things they did before. Which means there will still be those meleex5+rdm TP burn PTs in which Rdms do nothing but cure and haste.

And just one more thing, the haste 'nerf' only lowered the Haste cap from 90% to 80%. Meaning that even if you do have a Brd in your PT then CASTING HASTE WILL STILL BE USEFUL.

And no one is going to invite Rdms to be melee DDs. Ever.

[MrMageo]

well i dont agree, with 90% of what you said i feel SE just shoved aside rdm/whm/blm/mnk/war/thf through genuinely useless abilities. How often does warrior tank there big guy. How often does WHM get invited to an endgame party, where is BLM during this whole thing. Thf's use sata post ToA wow you must live on a special wonderful server if ppl take damage there. MNK hell i havent seen a MNK since october. RDM was the only job that had a niche, we could easilysit back and watch the xp roll in. Now that SCH can "Ghetto Convert", Teir 4 MB, Raise 2, Curaga4, Erase, -na, Dispel, all without the use of a Sub job who is going to invite rdm/whm/blm to a party. Hell even SMN/SCH can do it and they get hastega. The only thing rdm will be able to do is teir 3 burst a 6 step self light SC put down by a sam. Oh well im glad im already 75 and can solo my shit sucks to be all you newbie RDM's

[WishMaster3K]

There is a difference between soloing and meleeing. RDM melee inasmuch as it goes in it's contributions to soloing is a completely different gameplay vein than RDM melee in high-damage TP burns.

You seem to be close-minded, short-sighted and very unfamiliar with the concepts of English language, therefore, I find it hard to dub you with anything more flattering than an extremely high level of ignorance, and I'll just accept that you'll never understand half of all the stuff I've forgotten about this game.

You're a disgrace to Taru RDMs everywhere.

[Ziero]

well i dont agree, with 90% of what you said i feel SE just shoved aside rdm/whm/blm/mnk/war/thf through genuinely useless abilities. How often does warrior tank there big guy. How often does WHM get invited to an endgame party, where is BLM during this whole thing. Thf's use sata post ToA wow you must live on a special wonderful server if ppl take damage there. MNK hell i havent seen a MNK since october. RDM was the only job that had a niche, we could easilysit back and watch the xp roll in. Now that SCH can "Ghetto Convert", Teir 4 MB, Raise 2, Curaga4, Erase, -na, Dispel, all without the use of a Sub job who is going to invite rdm/whm/blm to a party. Hell even SMN/SCH can do it and they get hastega. The only thing rdm will be able to do is teir 3 burst a 6 step self light SC put down by a sam. Oh well im glad im already 75 and can solo my shit sucks to be all you newbie RDM's

As a War, I tank a lot, usually right after I BEAT THE CRAP out of something and pull hate. Now we have a full time ability that allows us to do even more damage while in a defensive position. They just added a defensive ability that allows Wars to do MORE DAMAGE. I think that's awesome right there.

And if a Thf doesn't use SaTa, then they're not doing their job. Especially seeing as how a suped up thf can potentially get 100tp in 30 seconds allowing them to do SA+WS or TA+WS at least once a fight. Oh and btw, the only problem with Accomplice was it's recast timer. And Collaborator fixed that quite nicely.

And as far as I know, a job that can heal and haste is always welcome to pts. Add in /Sch's 'ghetto convert' and healing bonuses and now they can do their job even more efficiently.

And Blms are soloing 12k+ an hour, far more then a Rdm can for Exp, while burning down all those super HNMs. Just like they always were.

And seriously, you're BURSTING in TP burns? That's certainly a lot more uncommon then having a Mnk in a TP burn. But then again, there must not be much else to do with 2 brds covering all your other duties.

SE added a few nice tricks to War and Thf, left Mnk alone because really nothing is wrong with them, gave Sch some much needed boosts, some of which can actually be used to boost OTHER jobs (like Whm) and didn't do a damn thing to Rdms one way or another.

The only 'bad'(and even that's not that big of a problem) in this update was the boost to Sam because, really, did they need it?

[WishMaster3K]

What he's taken is a few situations, made them extreme, and use them as a point for an argument.

It's like saying that RDMs shouldn't have nukes because "OMFG dis one tiem dis guy he all leik solod Bune."

For your information, the majority of parties AREN'T TP burns. Hate to burst your bubble. As a PLD @ 70, I've seen None, and as a RDM, I've been in more 6k/hr pts than I care to remember, as opposed to the small majority of TP burns I've been that have been awesome.

The only reason that TP burns seem so popular, is because so many people rant and rave about how uber they are, theyre considered the norm.

For your information, me and many other RDMs who are concerned with constant efficiency, as opposed to "Pt hanging by a thread on yellow/orange HP 70% of the time" exp, we invite WHMs. You're ignorant if you think that WHMs don't have place in merit pts.

Zeiro highlighted that BLMs solo for more an hour than they could in a party, and they only get better as their merits makes them stronger and stronger. Hell, before ToA, I knew a BLM that soloed on Elementals in the sky. Before EXP bands. Before EXP Sanction. Before MAB gear became the "New-School of thought". And he got 6k/hr.

No THF uses SATA at the same time post 60 when they have independent usage of the abilities. The concept of a "First Voke" is archaic as soon as PLDs get all the AF gear. But you're making it seem as if they don't use EITHER SA or TA.

And WTH is wrong with you and your MNK comment? MNKS are among the most consistent DDs in the game. I tanked with two RNGs who would bust out 2k Sidewinders on Dhamels when they did Berserk, and I wouldn't lose hate, but a MNKs constant high damage and constant high WSs made the mob turn away from me more often than I'd care to relate back to.

SCH's getting a "Ghetto Convert" doesn't mean RDM is extinct. If you think it does, then you're not as good as a RDM as you'd like to think you are.

You're under the impression that there are SO MANY BRD and COR out there where a RDM will be LFG for days on end with his thumb in his ass.

You're under the impression that there will be SO MANY SCH that the population won't know what to do with all the mages, and there'll be a big ol cluster fuck of exp going on.

NewsFlash- if someone didn't like being a mage last weekend, they won't want to be a mage this weekend. RDM isn't going anywhere on the desirability list.

[MrMageo]

I think its awesome how every single possible meripo sceneraio ends up being a TP Burn, clearly you havent acctually experienced RDM melee if all you can spout about is TP burn. I generally hit 50-60(enspell included 25ish enspell with proper gear on and latents active) /BLU or /DRK (usually 60 /DRK) and when i get double from joy that is 100-120 damage per attack round, which is on par with most jobs. With NIN i get 50-50 per swing (50 Joytoy 50 e.sword) and when joytoy double attacks thats 150 damage in one round again on par with other Job's. But you know what i bring to the table a SC and a MB, not many jobs can do that. So if i have a WHM/SCH or SMN/SCH or SCH/XXX main healing my party, you bet your ass im gearing to melee because unlike other melee RDM's i know how to melee, i dont have an enhancing sword fo nothing.

[WishMaster3K]

I'd like to see a parse of those numbers.

You know that there was a test on BG, of all places, where to silence all the RDM-Melee pundits, a naked MNK went up against a Fully Buffed and fully geared RDM. The MNK even waited for the RDM to cast all his spells before engaging, and disengaged when the RDM had to recast.

I'll fish for the link when I get home.

I'm sure everyone knows the results.

[Vyuru]

First off.

Thank you IceMage, for saying everything that I was too afraid of saying for fear that the Mods might get me ;)

Hint Haste/Refresh not needed in endgame meripo with 2x BRD, 1xBRD, 1XCOR/BRD

Hint, what in the world would make me want a Rdm when I have those?

SCH has replaced us as a Backline job, much like they have replaced WHM and BLM.

No, Sch and /Sch has replaced you as a backline job. Mages can bring their own form of Refresh to the parties now. I have no need for a Rdm now unless I have a Pld tank. Even then, Sanction/Sigil refresh, Auto Refresh, Parade Gorget, and lord knows what else means even a Pld doesn't need a Rdm anymore. Granted, with proper backup but all of my parties have that.

What else do RDM's have left to do with a SCH in the group other than melee? Pick daisies?

Haste, Protects, Shell, Phalanx II since we ARE talking merit parties here, then pick daisies. Assuming you actually fight something other than Colibri then the Rdm gets to focus on enfeebling and stuff.

How often does warrior tank there big guy.

Quite often.

How often does WHM get invited to an endgame party

All the time.

MNK hell i havent seen a MNK since october.

Had two of 'em in my party the other night.

RDM was the only job that had a niche, we could easilysit back and watch the xp roll in.

The crux of it all. Rdm was the only job that completely dominated the exp scene much like the rangers and arrowburns of olde. You *may* have been displaced from your throne, and now you're throwing a hissy fit over it.

I think its awesome how every single possible meripo sceneraio ends up being a TP Burn, clearly you havent acctually experienced RDM melee if all you can spout about is TP burn.

And guess why they are TP burns? Because the mob is so weak in defense, HP, and evasion that they can be killed quickly and easily. If they weren't TP burns you wouldn't have a ghost of a chance at being the *awesome* melee Rdm. Mamool Ja are the closest thing there IS in ToAU to what a normal exp level mob would behave in the RoZ/CoP zones, and you yourself said that you would not be able to handle meleeing them.

Fact: You yourself said that you had to have at least one Madrigal in order to reach an acceptable hit rate, while eating sushi and wearing +acc gear.

Fact: Real melee, especially two handers, have no need for +acc songs. Those songs are WORTHLESS to at least 1/2 of your party, just so that YOU can *melee*

Fact: The party would be better served if instead the bard used a +Haste or +Att song for the melee.

None of the other mage jobs are dependant solely on Rdm anymore, and that as far as I am concerned is a good thing.

[MrMageo]

Its always about a parseyou truly are an offspring to ToA. That is the trademark cry for TP Burns, if i get haste i can hit 2 more times and parse higher. I dont need to give you a parse, i get 20-30 a swing and 25-32 enspell damage. You want to see a parse, go look for someones PLD parse, then add 25-32 per swing for enspell damage, thats a RDM parse. I know what and what isnt capable from a RDM melee and otherwise, you leveled another job so you could melee, fell back on RDM to get easy merits. I didnt I love RDM so much i put in time and effort so i can melee decently. I have tried many combonations of gear/food to get my peak ability from it. I dont need to provide you with substantial proof through a parse, nor would I if I was required by some FFXI law to do so. Im sorry that i play my job effectivley and differently from the mainstream. Im sorry i dont conform to the TP Burn Meripo. However iI am not about to put up a parse so there can be 100 little carbon copies of me running around. Avesta didnt put up detailed information on Gear and Tactics so there could be 100's of little avesta's running around. I worked hard to be able to do what i do and Im not about to share the rewards with an abundant amount of Naysay RDM's turned "random" Job. You abuse my job for the merits then have the audacity to ask me to prove myself to you. There are very few people who post on these forums privey to such information, and the ones i consider probably dont even need it because im sure they have been playing RDM long enough like me to be able to tweak every amount of juice from it for every situation.



ADD

My madrigal only added a increased hit rate to over 80% but wait, the test was on colibri which have a high evade + 20 evade boost trait, most mobs in CoP/RoZ (where i do the most of my meriting) do not have these evaision bonus'. High Def mobs like say i dont know Genbu (whom i hit 20-30 on + an additional 20-30 enspell damage) Or when Invincible is up on any mob that can use it or an un dispelable def boost, who still hits for 20-30 every time. ME. Your arguements are based of a report i made involving colbri (which is redundant now with the /DNC nerf.)

None of the other mage jobs are dependent on RDM anymore, like you said. Frankly i am happy. No more begs for refresh can i have it, now it will just be me and my skill vs the rest of the REFRESH/CONVERT wash outs.

[Tsrwedge]

Wall-o-text

Did you hear that swishing sound? I think that was the last of your credibility going down the drain.

[Vyuru]

Its always about a parse

Yup because the numbers don't lie.

You want to see a parse, go look for someones PLD parse, then add 25-32 per swing for enspell damage, thats a RDM parse.

Actually no, a Pld geared for melee would do far more damage than a Rdm geared for melee, only on account of Vorpal Blade alone. The difference does widen once you get into the gear that a Pld can equip that Rdm can't.

I dont need to provide you with substantial proof through a parse

No, you don't. You think Rdm/Thf for SATA+WS (God I hope it's +WS and not just SATA) is worthwhile for added hate on the tank. I'm not even going to begin saying why that is a bad idea.

[MrMageo]

whatever man. yo can keep your backline RDM and take the scraps left behind by the sch /sch. i will move on and enjoy my time meleeing in parties.

[Tomato_Kai]

No, you don't. You think Rdm/Thf for SATA+WS (God I hope it's +WS and not just SATA) is worthwhile for added hate on the tank. I'm not even going to begin saying why that is a bad idea.

Sometimes some things are so egregiously incorrect that it's difficult to discern where to begin correcting you.


One of my favorite things to say when I want to sound pompous and mean when I'm correcting someone is: "That is so egregious, I don't even know where to begin chastising you. Please, go find a flagellum and save us both the trouble."


As you can imagine, I like feeling pompous and mean.

[Vyuru]

i will move on and enjoy my time meleeing in parties.


Enjoy being kicked out of said parties now that Rdm isn't required for exp.

EDIT:

One of my favorite things to say when I want to sound pompous and mean when I'm correcting someone is: "That is so egregious, I don't even know where to begin chastising you. Please, go find a flagellum and save us both the trouble."


While that is normally true, if he's going to wave the, "I'm the uber Rdm melee, but you are all pondscum whom I shall not share my data with!" card, and say that Rdm/Thf is good for hate control, I'm not going to go into any great detail as to just why that isn't so. It's pretty obvious that he has no real DD experience, if he did, he would not be saying something like that.

[WishMaster3K]

Did you hear that swishing sound? I think that was the last of your credibility going down the drain.

QFT

[MrMageo]

Fact: if there is no th thf and no one has /thf, rdm/thf is good for hate control in that sense no. Every little bit of hate stacked on a tank is less chance the WHM is going to eat a shot to the face.

I have tried sharing my melee experience with the lot of you and 90% of the time i get berated by the Backline onry crowd because i am doing something out of the norm efectivley(ref. refresh 2 post, ref. RDM/DNC in colibri pt post) There are a few of you who ask for logical explanations and I provide them. The fact is Parsing a RDM is fruitless, it dosent take into account, opening a skill chain > lowering the resistance > so a heavy DD can close SC harder, does it. No it takes my origianl WS that /DRK i can push to the 700-800 lvl if i want to (LR+SE) So a parse is in acurate.

Its easy enough for you to go out and get yourself an enhancing sword or joyeuse (I have both) /blu,/drk,/nin and go wack around some VT-IT mobs that is how i worked in my gear and learned what it takes to melee effectivley as a RDM. When you can start to take down vt-It mobs using your sword and enspells effectivley you will not be removed from a party.

To this date i have never been dropped from a party for meleeing on RDM infact i have been complimented many a time for my suprising ability at it. If a mage leaves and I need to take up a backline position i do it because I can, not because its my job to be on the back line, because i can be on the backline.

I say i am a good RDM because i know when to use a sword and i know when to put it away. Most RDM's i know dont have sword or dagger, hell sometimes not even evaision capped. I have Sword, Dagger, Sheild, Parry, Evaision capped. I have spent 2.6 Million on getting an enhancing sword to increase my overall damage. This is why I am a good RDM because I work at the job to make it as good as it can be. I dont melee to hit a parse, i dont need to hit a parse because I know if I am being effective or not, I know when to backline it, I dont need a parse to tell me. Im not here for competition over other jobs on a parse, Im here to help my party in a situation where it needs it, that includes Healing,Nuking,Enfeebling,Hate Control, Tanking, Kiting, Crowd Control, Refreshing, Hasting, Dispel, Escaping, Meleeing.

Everyone of those situations I have at one time or another been responsible for. Just because you have not had the luxury, or the ambition to do these things dosent mean they dont exist, or cant be done on a RDM.

[WishMaster3K]

I dont need to give you a parse, i get 20-30 a swing and 25-32 enspell damage.

Sure you do.

You want to see a parse, go look for someones PLD parse, then add 25-32 per swing for enspell damage, thats a RDM parse.

And about 10% more Accuracy.


I know what and what isnt capable from a RDM melee and otherwise, you leveled another job so you could melee, fell back on RDM to get easy merits.

Because being done with my RDM group merits is completely out of the realm of possibility.

I dont need to provide you with substantial proof through a parse, nor would I if I was required by some FFXI law to do so.

When someone is arguing about how awesome they are, the community, at large, would like to see verification.

Im sorry that i play my job effectivley and differently from the mainstream. Im sorry i dont conform to the TP Burn Meripo. However I am not about to put up a parse so there can be 100 little carbon copies of me running around.

Because you have secret gear that no one else in the game has.

Avesta didnt put up detailed information on Gear and Tactics so there could be 100's of little avesta's running around.

Everyone knows what gear Avesta uses. We can watch his videos to learn his tactics. He put his merits on his blog.


I worked hard to be able to do what i do and Im not about to share the rewards with an abundant amount of Naysay RDM's turned "random" Job. You abuse my job for the merits then have the audacity to ask me to prove myself to you. There are very few people who post on these forums privey to such information, and the ones i consider probably dont even need it because im sure they have been playing RDM long enough like me to be able to tweak every amount of juice from it for every situation.

You're awfully full of yourself. I bet when you fly to work, a golden rainbow shoots out your ass and money rains down on less fortunate folk and they praise you wherever you go.

My madrigal only added a increased hit rate to over 80% but wait, the test was on colibri which have a high evade + 20 evade boost trait, most mobs in CoP/RoZ (where i do the most of my meriting) do not have these evaision bonus'. High Def mobs like say i dont know Genbu (whom i hit 20-30 on + an additional 20-30 enspell damage) Or when Invincible is up on any mob that can use it or an un dispelable def boost, who still hits for 20-30 every time. ME. Your arguements are based of a report i made involving colbri (which is redundant now with the /DNC nerf.)
https://unp.un.org/bookshop/covers_large/0764553224.jpg

None of the other mage jobs are dependent on RDM anymore, like you said. Frankly i am happy. No more begs for refresh can i have it, now it will just be me and my skill vs the rest of the REFRESH/CONVERT wash outs.

I left this in there, because I needed a good laugh.

[MrMageo]

19 base enspell damage
+5 fencer ring
+8 enhancing sword

=

32 enspell damage, unless you dont know how to add let me show you like this.

8+5 = 13+19 = 32

now that resists have been changed i wont flucuate as much i imagine ill either be @ 24 with joy toy and 32 with enhancing sword. Anything else?

Oh yes how clumsy of me my secret gear.

Eahncing Sword and Fencer ring, thats my secret gear, gives me 13 more damage off the hop then any other RDM who dosent use it. Now lets see what else i have to go into more detail about because people cant look for them selves.

Oh how full of myself I am, Maybe I am, but i have earned the right to. I have spent the last 4 years of playing making my RDM as good as it can be in all aspects of the job I have defender ring jelly ring genbushield so when i tank i get all that lovely -DMG%. I have worked my ass off getting gear and knowledge to make my job better. I spent 2 weeks in Ru'Avitau Fighting Dolls/weapons to hone my melee skills. I have straight Tanked Despot/Zip in sky to practice my tanking. I have died an abnormal amount of times working to get where I am so yes I am full of myself because I can be full of myself.

Being done with your RDM group merits dosent mean you dont milk it for general merits, as far as I know merits are merits and Im sure I can plug them into what ever general category I want thats available to RDM which is a helluva alot of them.

As for Avesta, I hvae yet to see a detailed post anwhere about his Tactics. A video dosent tell you what he was thinking or why he did what he did it just shows you oh he did this when this happened. Im not going to babysit eery little RDM who wants to know how to melee, or tell every player who thinks they cant that they can. Ill give you a Hint I have more than 80% ACC on Gods without ballad, and i already told you about enspells, figure the rest out for yourself.

[Celeal]

I am not trying to add insult.... but from a tank point of view, if the tank *need* a RDM/THF for hate control, something is .... Orz.

[MrMageo]

Well maybe it is. But situations happen and being a versatile job sometimes you have to fill them.

Used to be common place having thf's and /thf using sata on a tank but not so much anymore since TP burning and hate bouncing has become all the rage.

[WishMaster3K]

Well I guess you showed me.

[Vyuru]

This on Colibri:

Equipment:
RDM AF Joyuese (Cap Sword) Life belt, 2x Woodsman Rings, Wivre Gorget, Amemet Mantle +1, 2x accurate earring + Food
I now hit 75-80% and 80% consistently sometimes more with a BRD madrigal


And then this:

Ill give you a Hint I have more than 80% ACC on Gods without ballad

So.... Basically you are saying that Colibri that we merit off of have more evasion than Gods do? And that having greater accuracy on a mob with lower evasion is something to be proud of? And I think you meant Madrigal.

To this date i have never been dropped from a party for meleeing on RDM

And exactly how many other Rdm were LFG at the time? People will put up with alot of stuff if they think they have to.

Fact: if there is no th thf and no one has /thf, rdm/thf is good for hate control in that sense no. Every little bit of hate stacked on a tank is less chance the WHM is going to eat a shot to the face.


If hate control like that is an issue then either get a real tank or trust the Whm knows what they are doing.

To this date i have never been dropped from a party for meleeing on RDM infact i have been complimented many a time for my suprising ability at it.

Most likely they are surprised that you can DD at all considering the levels you have for the subjobs you advocate for DD. Lvl 29 War, 20 Blu, 25 Drk, 27 Nin.

Most people I know would consider someone who has 2.6 million+ in melee gear, with DD subs such as those THAT far underleveled and in some cases missing vital abilities/spells because they are underleveled, to be either:

A) Gimp and a gil buyer.

B) A few feathers short of a chocobo, and quite possibly A.

I'll take you seriously when you actually show that you are serious, fully leveled subs would be a good start FYI.

[Celeal]

If there is a NIN/WAR or PLD in the TP-burn or *melee-based* (modification of TP-burn party) party, a THF or DD/THF is a valid/common among DD/SAM or DD/NIN in those party.

THF or DD/THF is not welcome when entire front-line is tying to avoid hate, or the mob die too fast that hate isn't matter (a true TP burn party). However, that kind of party is not the norm, it represent the best case only. Very often the pick-up group is wiped, or the camp is too overcrowded, or party in Traditional Area (when Sanction is gone), or the party just want some exp. and don't care about high chains.

[Feenicks]

Am I the only one who is thinking why it is that WHM doesn't beg to be allowed to melee despite having a B+ in Club? We have some pretty nifty weapons and WS's as well.

Seriously I think it's time this thread was closed.

[MrMageo]

No body is beggin to melee in this thread I do it, do it effectivley and the usual debate ensues. WHM can be ective at melee as well, personally if it calls for it or the opportunity arises i say giver hell. Im not trying to convince anyone, I do it others do it, and some people cant handle the fact its do able when they cant.

In reference to you accusation i am a gil buyer, thats out rageous. I sell myself out for things, need someone to kite a BCNM a 3rd BLM for UO, then i will go for 20% of drops over 200K. I have supplied my server with spider torques for the last 8 months at 200K a pop and i get one a day. I solo zip/despot and sell the drops for 500K i have no intention of buying or selling gil. I MPK RMT everychance i get to slow them down, so I guess i am B.

Contrary to what you say I do these things daily, I dont need fully leveled sub jobs to atain my goal. I just got out of a troll party where i went RDM/NIN and was the opening WS for the Sam to close Light, and then I was the MB for it. You know what we just got 15,494 xp from that party for a little more than an hour. Im not hurting anyone but you you it seems.

[Yellow Mage]

Okay, DiV may be acting broken for me, but I spammed F5 enough to come here for a singular purpose: to make one thing clear from the get-go.

MrMageo is, by far and wide, not, nor ever was representative of what the rest of us so-called "melee Red Mages" think.

To be honest, I /blist'd him/her a LONG time ago (since the Refresh II thread), and, quite frankly, I'm quite surprised the rest of the forum didn't follow me in suit, especially since the Refresh II thread.

[Icemage]

Ok, this has gone on quite long enough.

There hasn't been any useful discussion in this thread in several pages.

Closed.


Icemage
FFXIOnline Forum Super Moderator