Selphiie's Guide To Party Leaders

[Selphiie The Enchantress]

Selphiie’s Guide To Party Leaders

Be a follower before you become a leader:If you don’t know how to make a party or don’t know basic party mechanics yet, keep your flag up and learn from people who are a little more experienced before trying to make one yourself.

Know where you want to go before you start a party:There is nothing more annoying than getting an invite to a party with a party leader who has no idea where they are going. “So where do we party at this level?” Do your research, there is a good site for camps called Campsitarus. http://campsitarus.blogspot.com/ (http://campsitarus.blogspot.com/)

Level gap: Try to keep the levels of the party members close, don’t invite people 4-5 levels out of your level range because you can’t find a healer or can’t find a tank, it is better to just sit and wait, which brings me to my next point.

Don’t start a party unless there are enough people seeking:If you search your level and see just a THF and a BLU seeking, don’t bother trying to start a party, people want to be invited and ready to go out to camp and get exp. You don’t want to have people wait 20-30 minutes in a half-formed party only to have to disband because no one else is seeking, and wasting everyones time. If you search your level range and see a Healer and a Tank and others to fill in the gap then go for it.

Don't discriminate based on jobs:Throw out this lolPUP, lolDRG, lolANYTHING BUT WAR/NIN and invite those jobs, especially if they are the only DDs seeking. If you are at 5 and need a DD and only see a Puppetmaster seeking, don't tell your party "Lol theres just a PUP seeking, lets wait". Go ahead and invite that Puppetmaster. Just because everyone says lolDRG or lolPUP doesn't mean they are LOL. (If you have to put lol before a job name without having leveled it yourself then your ignorant anyway.) Real party leaders would know that you can perform insane SATA skillchains with a DRG/THF or take some pressure off the healer's back with an Automaton's Cure V.

Know what your going to kill:This plays in with “Know where you want to go”. When you get to camp and designated your puller, let them know (if they don’t know already) what to pull. You don’t want to be in Crawler’s Nest and have the puller pull Maze Lizards and link the whole room and wipe the whole party.
[Armando] Overhunting:Basically it's when you (try to) kill mobs that too high for the party's level. You know, those really god-awful fights where every mob gives 200 EXP and it takes for-freaking-ever to kill them D:

I think it's the single most common mistake parties that are otherwise good make. It really grinds my gears knowing that I could be making much better EXP if the party would just kill something a few levels lower.

Asking people who aren't seeking:Try your best not to ask people who are not seeking for a party, because most likely they are AFK, or they are busy, and especially if they have a search comment that says that don't want to party. Although if you are missing a key job like a tank/puller/healer, or even a DD, it never hurts to ask, you may find yourself lucky. Just be sure not to get angry at the person if they say no, if they don't want to party, then they don't want to party. ALSO for a little more experienced players, (low level players are still learning), if you see someone seeking in places like Sky,Sea,Temenos, Hazhalm, or any other endgame zone, then they are doing a LS event, it is very rare that someone would be LFP in an endgame zone, but make sure to read the search comment if they have one. If you see a RDM looking for party in Dynamis-Sandoria, don't ask them lol.

Try to keep the party balanced:This doesn’t necessarily apply to merit partys anymore, but if you are level 35 don’t invite just ONE Healer with no backup healing support at all and just 4 DDs and a tank. Try to keep the party balanced with 3 back line members and 3 front line members, or 2 back line members and 4 front line members, with one of the front line members having the capability to backup the healer (I.e DNC,BLU,ETC). Don't think you just need "someone who can cure you", because while your sitting in Kuftal tunnel taking 20 minutes to kill one crab, the party behind you has a RDM,BRD,COR,THF,or BLU who can dispel the mob's guard and killing three crabs in the time it takes your party to kill one. Jobs have different roles in partys (but you should know this), it isn't JUST getting people to whack at it and having someone who can cure you.

Read Search comments:Make sure you READ the search comments of people who are seeking. Sometimes there are people who seek in pairs and won’t take an invite unless you have room for the other. Because it is annoying to be invited to a party and see there isn't room for their mate, then you get bitched at for not reading the search comment, and you lose out on having that job in your party. Unfortunately too, most JP won’t take an invite if you are NA/EU, they want to exp with “JP Only”, so don’t bother bugging them, also if you have a JP in your party don’t throw them party leader and tell them to ask the JP only people, because that’s very rude. When you read search comments be sure to look at stuff like their experience TNL, what zones they do and don’t have access too. If you see “Kazham:X” then they don’t have access to Kazham, although you shouldn’t really be seeking jungle levels without going out of your way and getting access anyway.

Don’t make a party then give someone else leader:It is very rude to just make a party then give the person leader and tell them to finish making the party. 9 times out of 10 that person is going to bitch at you or just plain leave.

Your responsible as party LEADER:You are the party leader, you are responsible for the party. If there is a conflict between two members then handle it, you don’t want your party to break because two people can’t get along, and most of the time its over something stupid, so just tell them “hey its not that big a deal, lets just exp.”

Search ahead before going to camp:Don’t make a party and immediately say “Hey we are going to Caedarva Mire”, take a look, use the search command before going out to camp. If you search Caedarva mire and see 120 people in party your level, but search Bhaflau Thickets and only see 32 people, WHY would you bring 6 more bodies to Caedarve mire where mobs will spawn purple?

Don’t just invite people who are sitting in town:Lets face it people don’t want to sit in Jeuno twiddling their thumbs, most people when they seek go to solo exp or go out to farm. If your in Jeuno with 5/6 and you need a DD, and you see a WAR seeking, but he is in Jugner Forest, don’t sit there and wait for another DD to start seeking in town, ask that WAR, I bet he has his HP in jeuno and can warp back in an instant.

Give a little respect to Beastmasters/(And other soloists):Yes, most people won’t invite them even if they are seeking, but don’t make their lives worse by camping on top of them. Not only do you not invite them, but you camp on them. No. Smart Beastmasters will solo not anonymous and will have where they are and what they are fighting in their search comment. Even if they don’t, and you arrive at camp and see a Beastmaster there, DON’T tell your party (and I’ve seen this so many times before) “Oh, It’s just a beastmaster, let’s camp here.” You don’t want other partys camping on top of you, don’t camp on a beastmaster (or other partys). Partys do not have rights over a soloer.

If the camp you are at starts to become a little more crowded, then go somewhere else:Yes, its unfortunate but there ARE retarded people who do bring their partys to camp next to, if not on top of another party. If a camp only has enough mobs to support one party and another party or two invade, instead of having an immature shout fight, just be the bigger man(woman) and just bring your party elsewhere. Don’t try to outpull them because chances are you are going to have your whole party out there pulling and you’re only killing your own exp.

Inviting A Puller:

Ask a member if he would be alright pulling before heading out .(Somepartymember ◀Fishing▶ OK?) That way he can grab a range weapon and ammo first if he doesn't already have it. Avoid asking members with MP (DRK can do it, especially with Refresh), shouldn't be asking DRG or MNK for the role at all.[IfritnoItazura]

Most importantly, be mature:Impress the people in your party with your skills with your job, because in the future they will either look at the flags seeking and pick you first or not hesitate to take an invite from you, try to communicate with the people in your party, you never know who you may end up befriending one day. Don’t just grind the exp, have fun doing so.
:):thumbsup:

Also, I'm open to suggestions/additions~

[Armando]

Excellent guide. May want to add to add to the level gap thing that not only is it important to keep the gap close, it's also generally important to try to have the tanks and DDs as the highest levels in the party as opposed to the healers and support jobs, since healers and support jobs don't take as big of a hit to their performance for being underlevelled.

But what I REALLY think should be included is "Don't overhunt." Waaaaay too many people do it, even those that know how to play properly and lead a party. I guess that could go under "Know what you're going to kill" if you don't want to add an extra bullet just for that.

[Selphiie The Enchantress]

Thanks Armando, what does Overhunt mean?

[Armando]

Oh, sorry. I've seen the term a lot so I figured you'd know. Basically it's when you (try to) kill mobs that too high for the party's level. You know, those really god-awful fights where every mob gives 200 EXP and it takes for-freaking-ever to kill them D:

I think it's the single most common mistake parties that are otherwise good make. It really grinds my gears knowing that I could be making much better EXP if the party would just kill something a few levels lower.

EDIT: And don't even get me started on people that overhunt on crabs of all things ._.

[WovenDarkness]

Give a little respect to Beastmasters/(And other soloists):Yes, most people won’t invite them even if they are seeking, but don’t make their lives worse by camping on top of them. Not only do you not invite them, but you camp on them. No. Smart Beastmasters will solo not anonymous and will have where they are and what they are fighting in their search comment. Even if they don’t, and you arrive at camp and see a Beastmaster there, DON’T tell your party (and I’ve seen this so many times before) “Oh, It’s just a beastmaster, let’s camp here.” You don’t want other partys camping on top of you, don’t camp on a beastmaster (or other partys). Partys do not have rights over a soloer.

The more polite a party is to me, the more polite and helpful I am to the party, should the need arise. I remember a time when I was soloing (bst) in CN, /sea comment up, location and pet/prey. I'd been there for about an hour and a party came and and camped on me. I was throwing beetles at beetles/scorps and doing really well. ...next thing I know, I was out of pets. I ended up 2hr'ing my prey. >.< I knew that I was going to be on all day, so after I healed, I dumped the scorp, and concentrated all my efforts...beetle on beetle. When I ran out of prey, I charmed the last beetle in the room and ran out near the party and /healed. When the RNG "looked at me in disgust", I let the party know in /say that they could "continue to look at this in disgust( me healing w/ a pet and their potential prey), as they had camped on me, and that I had /sea comments up. I continued to bounce between the beetle room and the hallway behind the pt. They left in about an hour. I'd like to think that it was because I kept breaking their chains.

Shortly after they left, another party rolled in and asked how long I was going to be. I left the room to them after less than 1k exp and my level. I stopped to pick up their pt after an unfortunate AoE/link and subsequent party wipe, after I put a pet on their mob and their 2 links while joining in the fray.

While exp was slower for both of us for a short time, we both benefited by being courteous.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Yes, its unfortunate but there ARE retarded people who do bring their partys to camp next to, if not on top of another party. If a camp only has enough mobs to support one party and another party or two invade, instead of having an immature shout fight, just be the bigger man(woman) and just bring your party elsewhere. Don’t try to outpull them because chances are you are going to have your whole party out there pulling and you’re only killing your own exp.

Only part I somewhat disagree with, I never resort to a shout fight, but I will not give up my camp just because another PT thinks they can waltz in and take it. I've scared off my fair share of BRDx2 merit PTs by being the smarter smarter puller. I pull a little more ambitiously and wait til they fuck up. They usually get too greedy and die.

Regardless of level or camp, if my PT was there first, I'm not going to back down from it if they don't want to. I can't stand a bully and won't back down to one.

[Selphiie The Enchantress]

Thanks Armando, added it under the appropriate spot~

And Woven, when i leveled Beast i had the same thing, if people respected me, i would respect them, most of the time it worked fine. Other times...people are just buttholes lol.

[Aksannyi]

Don’t ask people who are not seeking for party:

Great guide except for that bit, I tend to disagree a bit. Sometimes when I'm not seeking I'll accept an invite just for something to do, and sometimes those parties are awesome.

Amend it maybe, that they can ask people who don't have their flag up, but don't be surprised or get angry if they say no. But keep in mind that if their search comment says they don't want a party, there's a reason for it.

9/10 the person will say no, but there really is nothing wrong with asking.

[Selphiie The Enchantress]

Yeah lol, its Crazy hard to walk around as 75BRD not /anon without meripo leaders breathing down your neck every step you take for a party. As much as i want to put "Party, No Thanks" in my /seacom, its usually full of things i need for example Sandoria9-2 and Periqia Assaults and Nyzul assaults and all that, usually takes up my whole /seacom.

What I hate though Aksannyi, is getting invites when im not seeking, and me turning them down, then them totally being a bitch about it and hating me cuz i said no. Like, geesh lol i didn't want to party, is it a crime?

[Malacite]

EDIT: And don't even get me started on people that overhunt on crabs of all things ._.

QFT. I'm looking at you Valkurm/Tree/Terrigan/Kuftal >_> (hell a lot of zones really. Crabs SUCK)

[Celeal]

Great guide ^o^/

Don’t ask people who are not seeking for party

IMHO + from my experience, if the job/player you are asking is not in high demand (relative to the level range), it is okay to send a /tell even if he/she is not seeking. There is a 50/50 chance he/she would be very happy to have an invite =P

[IfritnoItazura]

I don't see anything wrong with politely asking someone if he would be interested in joining an exp party.

At certain levels on RDM and PLD, it was a common occurrence to receive invites out of the blue. At most, I was slightly vexed when the /tell consist exactly two characters: "PT". It annoys me somewhat that people can't even be bothered to type a question mark. Otherwise, if I have something else to do (which I usually do), I politely decline.

I'd advice starting any inquiry with an auto-translated ◀Excuse me...▶

Of course, BRDs are different--they are so popular, they all have paranoia about unsolicited invites. :P So, leave them alone, but can ask other jobs.

* * *

As for knowing where to go, that's great, but it doesn't hurt to solicit party members' inputs, either. "Want to camp at ____? What do you guys think?"

Most of the time, there should be no objections, but every once in a while someone will point out something which may be over looked, like five parties of same levels in zone, someone may be too high/low for the camp, DD's are piercing damage and should fight flying critters, etc.

Building consensus on where to go and how to fight before heading out is how Japanese players like it, so just asking the question may help put JP members of the party at ease as well.

[Saren]

I liked a lot of the guide but I have some suggestions. No offense intended by any of this.

Not inviting people who aren't seeking:

I've also had a lot of party members this way, including bards and I've accepted the odd invite when I wasn't seeking. Perhaps altering the guide to emphasize that if you are going to ask someone who isn't seeking then be polite about it, don't get annoyed if they say no and that you should remember that certain jobs (bard, rdm) probably have this spammed at them and might not reply or might scream at you? :P

The JP member stuff:

This seems a bit confrontationally phrased to me and the implication in how you have worded it is that most JP players are just a bit assholic. I'm pretty sure I read somewhere that Japanese putting JP only in their search comment isn't always about them being assholes, sometimes it's because they don't feel they speak enough english to communicate well enough to be in a mixed party not becuase they think it will be a bad party. Not that there aren't some JP players who don't just think anyone not JP is a bad player but it's not all of them.


It's more of a problem at lower levels but one of the things I do really dislike in leaders are the ones that micromanage and the ones that don't manage at all. Micromanagers are the ones that take leading just a bit too seriously and are constantly saying things like {Good Job!} or some little comment about every single mob. Non-managers are the the leaders who when asked a question either ask the party what they want to do or ignore it completely (I hate those leaders). Lower level especially there are a lot of descisions that potentially a leader might be expected to make (SATA setup, puller, what skillchain, moving camp because people have levelled out of the camps range) and a leader should come prepared to make them if needed.

[Selphiie The Enchantress]

Ok it seems alot of people disagreed with the "Asking people who aren't seeking" so im going to change it a little ^^

Asking people who aren't seeking:

Try your best not to ask people who are not seeking for a party, because most likely they are AFK, or they are busy, and especially if they have a search comment that says that don't want to party. Although if you are missing a key job like a tank/puller/healer, or even a DD, it never hurts to ask, you may find yourself lucky. Just be sure not to get angry at the person if they say no, if they don't want to party, then they don't want to party. ALSO for a little more experienced players, (low level players are still learning), if you see someone seeking in places like Sky,Sea,Temenos, Hazhalm, or any other endgame zone, then they are doing a LS event, it is very rare that someone would be LFP in an endgame zone, but make sure to read the search comment if they have one. If you see a RDM looking for party in Dynamis-Sandoria, don't ask them lol.

I might add this, but I'll see what you guys think:

Invite a puller:
Make sure 1 of your party slots has someone who can pull. Yes EVERY job can technically pull, but when you get to camp you should be able to safely say "Ok so-and-so, your going to pull". I've had numerous partys where we would stand there like idiots for about 10 minutes after buffs until someone would just ask "so...whos pulling?" I try not to have MP jobs pull only because i would like them to HMP in between pulls, Blue Mages and Dark Knights are excellent pullers with throwing/poison/marksmanship, but most of the time without a refresher they would always sit there with no MP along the course of a few battles. I don't make DRGs pull, at all. Don't ask a DRG to jump pull, half the time they will come back dead, there is a small delay after a jump that gives the mob the opportunity to beat the crap out of the DRG as they start running back. Warriors are excellent pullers until around the time they start to equip pieces like the Bomb core, thats when you should have someone else pull. NEVER provoke pull, UNLESS you are tank pulling, because that is just deadly for the puller especially if the tank is not one to keep hate well. If there really is no one who can pull, then tank pulling is fine, Paladins can flash pull or provoke pull, and Ninjas (Ninjas worth their salt) will have a throwing item (Ungur Boomerang,etc).

[Tomato_Kai]

This is a great guide.

I, like several people, don't necessarily see much harm in asking folks not lfg if they'd like to group. Generally, people who absolutely do not want to be disturbed are DND/ANON, and that's fine.

Even myself on my Samurai just last night, OP Warped back from Valkurm after a fantastic party. Just sitting in my Mog House, I was getting tells from about 4 different folks who wanted me to join their party. I guess it was a busy night, or low on DD's or something, because that was out of the norm. But, I politely declined all of them and went to bed and got a good night's rest. I didn't mind the tells, I just declined them.


Another point of note is just that some people in parties don't care for idle talk, and other folks do. Don't try and keep "everyone quiet" or keep "everyone talking" just because you're particularly swayed one way or another. Me, I really don't chat at all during parties. I like being quiet, but I sure as heck don't want people telling everyone to "just shut up" or something. Likewise, people bothering folks in the middle of a fight is also really ridiculous, and actually fairly common.

Another thing I think should be in this guide:

AFK's.

People who fight during AFKs, people who try and move the party with people AFK, people who AFK all of the sudden, and other such party killing atrocities.

[IfritnoItazura]

Asking people who aren't seeking:

Try your best not to ask people who are not seeking for a party, because most likely they are AFK, or they are busy, and especially if they have a search comment that says that don't want to party. Although if you are missing a key job like a tank/puller/healer, or even a DD, it never hurts to ask, you may find yourself lucky. Just be sure not to get angry at the person if they say no, if they don't want to party, then they don't want to party. ALSO for a little more experienced players, (low level players are still learning), if you see someone seeking in places like Sky,Sea,Temenos, Hazhalm, or any other endgame zone, then they are doing a LS event, it is very rare that someone would be LFP in an endgame zone, but make sure to read the search comment if they have one. If you see a RDM looking for party in Dynamis-Sandoria, don't ask them lol.

lol. I only get invites on RDM lately when I'm trying to get back into alliance after d/c. >_<;

Agree with the general flow: take those looking first, only ask those not seeking if can't make a reasonable party from those seeking. Be polite, don't get angry if turned down.



Invite a puller:
Make sure 1 of your party slots has someone who can pull. Yes EVERY job can technically pull, but when you get to camp you should be able to safely say "Ok so-and-so, your going to pull". I've had numerous partys where we would stand there like idiots for about 10 minutes after buffs until someone would just ask "so...whos pulling?" I try not to have MP jobs pull only because i would like them to HMP in between pulls, Blue Mages and Dark Knights are excellent pullers with throwing/poison/marksmanship, but most of the time without a refresher they would always sit there with no MP along the course of a few battles. I don't make DRGs pull, at all. Don't ask a DRG to jump pull, half the time they will come back dead, there is a small delay after a jump that gives the mob the opportunity to beat the crap out of the DRG as they start running back. Warriors are excellent pullers until around the time they start to equip pieces like the Bomb core, thats when you should have someone else pull. NEVER provoke pull, UNLESS you are tank pulling, because that is just deadly for the puller especially if the tank is not one to keep hate well. If there really is no one who can pull, then tank pulling is fine, Paladins can flash pull or provoke pull, and Ninjas (Ninjas worth their salt) will have a throwing item (Ungur Boomerang,etc).
It's a good idea, but may want to condense it a bit.

"Ask a member if he would be alright pulling before heading out .(Somepartymember ◀Fishing▶ OK?) That way he can grab a range weapon and ammo first if he doesn't already have it. Avoid asking members with MP (DRK can do it, especially with Refresh), shouldn't be asking DRG or MNK for the role at all."

I find asking tank to pull is generally a bad choice, especially NIN tanks for some reason. Provoke pulling is non-optimal, but can work; the puller better not use WS in the first 30 seconds. (Without enmity gear/food, the enmity from Provoke fades away in 30 seconds nearly completely.) WAR isn't a bad puller at any level; they are always using /NIN anyway, might as well make them spend a few shihei.

The problem with using a DD as puller at higher levels is that the good parties do not need a lot down time to recharge MP, so it make more sense for a DD to be flailing away instead of disengaging, then running around to bring in the next victim. At lower levels, though, the mages can use the break anyway, so stick to players with good damage mitigation (armor, Utusemi, flee, evasion, etc.) as pullers.

[Selphiie The Enchantress]

I kind of have this hierarchy of pulling, like depends whats in the party.

Thief > Ranger > Warrior > Corsair > Dark Knight > Bard(This obviously changes in later levels) > Anything else

But thats just me lol, as much as I love Ranger pullers, if there is a THF in the party i'd rather the THF with Evasion skill pull than the Ranger with E in evasion lol.

[Karinya]

A ninja that *isn't* tanking makes a great puller (imo that's what Utsusemi was originally intended for). If you happen to have 2 ninjas in your party, or before level 37, keep it in mind.

Even without throwing items they can pull with ninjutsu (assuming they're not total morons and have some tools other than shihei).

SAM have decent archery and Third Eye and can make decent pullers too, although they may not have a lot of practice at it.

If you're inviting anything other than THF, RNG, COR or high-level BRD to pull, *let them know in advance* - as soon as you invite them, or certainly before you leave town. They may need to change gear, or tell you that they have no experience at pulling (which can really hurt in a zone full of linking mobs, or aggro mobs that you don't want to pull).

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

If you're inviting anything other than THF, RNG, COR or high-level BRD to pull, *let them know in advance* - as soon as you invite them, or certainly before you leave town. They may need to change gear, or tell you that they have no experience at pulling (which can really hurt in a zone full of linking mobs, or aggro mobs that you don't want to pull).

Actually, I would inform a RNG or COR in advance as well. Just because they typically have ranged weapons by default doesn't make them the best pulling choice. RNG and CORs have some of the highest-delay weapons in the game which can make pulling a pain in the arse in competitive camps. Additionally, CORs have a buff cycle to maintain and not every COR can juggle that and pull at the same time. I can, but I know plenty that can't.

As a RNG, I actually protest the idea of pulling because it takes away from my ability to DoT. No good reason for that, I'm a DD just as much as any WAR, MNK or other in the PT, if not moreso at times.

At any rate, these jobs aren't always "in the mood" to pull, sometimes we'd like to sub something other than /NIN to enjoy what our jobs can really do. Asking us to pull forces the issue of /NIN and takes a bit of fun out of both jobs. I subbed /WAR a lot during my RNG levelling and was always /RNG on COR.

[Selphiie The Enchantress]

Ok updated the guide with Ifrtinoitazura's post, which was frustrating because for some reason whenver i scrolled down to edit the scroll bar would bounce back up >.>; So it looks kind of out there lol...

[Karinya]

Actually, I would inform a RNG or COR in advance as well. Just because they typically have ranged weapons by default doesn't make them the best pulling choice. RNG and CORs have some of the highest-delay weapons in the game which can make pulling a pain in the arse in competitive camps.
No problem; it was already established earlier in the guide that competitive camps suck and you shouldn't go there or stay there. Find multiple options, search them in advance, pick one where there's a decent mob supply.
Additionally, CORs have a buff cycle to maintain and not every COR can juggle that and pull at the same time. I can, but I know plenty that can't.
Sure, there are always players who fail at their job. That doesn't mean it isn't their job. There are WHMs who can't juggle cures, regen and -na spells (let alone throwing in haste too). Does that mean you shouldn't expect WHMs to cover all those responsibilities? Hell no.

Do you inform PLDs in advance that they will be tanking? Inform WHMs in advance that they will be healing? Inform MNKs in advance that they will be punching things? Pulling is an integral and expected part of the roles of some jobs, particularly the ranged attack specialists.
As a RNG, I actually protest the idea of pulling because it takes away from my ability to DoT. No good reason for that, I'm a DD just as much as any WAR, MNK or other in the PT, if not moreso at times.
So is every other puller job, except BRD (at high levels), and not every party has one. (And bards, too, sacrifice a lot to go /NIN just to pull, as I'm sure you know quite well.)

RNG can control when they do their damage more than most other jobs (aside from THF, which is often pulling for the same reason).

The whole party, including you, will get more exp if you act for the good of the party rather than your own personal % of damage dealt. Your ability to DoT is only useful when it enhances the party's exp/hr. When your ability to pull enhances the party's exp/hr more, then the party needs you to pull rather than DoT. This applies equally to any DD/puller - but the ones who are traditional pullers are already used to it, which is why you only need to *specifically* notify the WAR, DRK, SAM etc.
At any rate, these jobs aren't always "in the mood" to pull, sometimes we'd like to sub something other than /NIN to enjoy what our jobs can really do.
Then do so. Not every mob is a raptor or tiger. There are plenty of camps where you don't need shadows to pull cleanly.

If you really don't want to pull on a job that appears designed to pull and is widely used as a puller, put it in your search comment. Don't be an ass to parties that invited a pulling job to pull.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Sure, there are always players who fail at their job. That doesn't mean it isn't their job. There are WHMs who can't juggle cures, regen and -na spells (let alone throwing in haste too). Does that mean you shouldn't expect WHMs to cover all those responsibilities? Hell no.

You're being a little elitist here, not everyone rolls into COR from prior RNG and BRD experience like I did. It was easy to pick up both obligations with ease for me because I was used to being a puller BRD, juggling buffs and doing pulling/DD on RNG.

People who don't come from those jobs or jobs commonly asked - not made - to pull are not used to the fast pace expected of them as COR or BRD puller. You seem to forget COR, unlike BRD, has a minute long recast between buffs. Its easy to manage for me, but complicated for other people.

Do you inform PLDs in advance that they will be tanking? Inform WHMs in advance that they will be healing? Inform MNKs in advance that they will be punching things? Pulling is an integral and expected part of the roles of some jobs, particularly the ranged attack specialists.

OK, scratch "elitist," you're just being a retard now. "Integral" is false - any job can pull. What not every job can do is stage pull, which BRD and COR excel at.

The whole party, including you, will get more exp if you act for the good of the party rather than your own personal % of damage dealt. Your ability to DoT is only useful when it enhances the party's exp/hr. When your ability to pull enhances the party's exp/hr more, then the party needs you to pull rather than DoT. This applies equally to any DD/puller - but the ones who are traditional pullers are already used to it, which is why you only need to *specifically* notify the WAR, DRK, SAM etc.

You send out the DD whose damage is of least consequence to pull, in most cases these days, its not a DD, its a BRD. THF's damage is of lesser consequence and they can affort to disengage early for next pull thanks to their ablity to move thier hate on to other people.

"But what if there's no THF?"

By your logic, only people with ranged weapons can pull because we're "used to it."

No,anyone can pull. Its not a job element, its a player skill.

Even then, why force it on the guy with the higest delay and largest damage potential? Give me a better reason than the ones you've given thus far.

Then do so. Not every mob is a raptor or tiger. There are plenty of camps where you don't need shadows to pull cleanly.

There are plenty of camps - pre-55 - that you don't need shadows to pull cleanly, once they start flying its a completely different matter, you are garunteed to get tagged.

If you really don't want to pull on a job that appears designed to pull and is widely used as a puller, put it in your search comment. Don't be an ass to parties that invited a pulling job to pull.

Again, pulling is not a job element or job design - anyone can pull. "Ranged weapon = Puller" is much of a misnomer as "Summoner = Healer."

I DO make search comments stating that I don't want to pull on they days I don't feel like it.

Guess what? People don't read your search comment when you're a COR or BRD.

[Karinya]

You're being a little elitist here, not everyone rolls into COR from prior RNG and BRD experience like I did. It was easy to pick up both obligations with ease for me because I was used to being a puller BRD, juggling buffs and doing pulling/DD on RNG.

People who don't come from those jobs or jobs commonly asked - not made - to pull are not used to the fast pace expected of them as COR or BRD puller. You seem to forget COR, unlike BRD, has a minute long recast between buffs. Its easy to manage for me, but complicated for other people.
Oh, I don't expect them to pull perfectly at level 20. But they'll learn it as they level up, like any other job role. COR often have a RNG sub which means more experience pulling (or insisting that their uber damage means someone else should be sent to pull instead). *Any* advanced job necessarily means they have 30 levels of experience in *something*, even in the dunes - time when they could have been observing good and bad pullers, if they knew they were going to try a job that frequently pulls.

I don't think it's elitist to insist that people who are going to play a difficult job actually learn that job. At least by the time they get to higher levels in it. Certainly playing COR well is one of the more difficult jobs in the game. That doesn't mean we shouldn't expect CORs to do a good job, or at least to try to do a good job.
"Integral" is false - any job can pull. What not every job can do is stage pull, which BRD and COR excel at.
Do some pulling as MNK or DRG before you say that job doesn't matter. Let alone MP jobs, which need to be resting between pulls (and yes, for most levels of the game, there still is such a thing as "between pulls"). This wasn't intended to be a meripo only guide, last I checked.

Stage pulling isn't really necessary with a little party cooperation - even at the highest levels where overlapping pulls are a good thing, there's no reason the puller and CCer *have* to be the same person.
You send out the DD whose damage is of least consequence to pull, in most cases these days, its not a DD, its a BRD. THF's damage is of lesser consequence
Now who's being an elitist?
and they can affort to disengage early for next pull thanks to their ablity to move thier hate on to other people.
That doesn't really make any sense. Unless you think that the puller is going to be so bad at hate control that they'll leave camp for the next mob and the current mob will *chase* them.

By your logic, only people with ranged weapons can pull because we're "used to it."

No,anyone can pull. Its not a job element, its a player skill.
It's both. People with ranged weapons get a freaking huge head start on every mob they pull, for free (well, for the cost of one piece of ammo). People with ranged magic get a moderate head start that may cost them some MP (unless it's non-MP magic like bard or ninja). People with jack shit outside of melee range are going to get hammered every step of the way back to camp *and* have a much harder time pulling one out of a group of aggro and/or linking mobs.

The right job won't make you succeed at pulling. But the wrong job can very easily make you fail at it, even if you're quite skilled. And that's not even counting all the jobs that have responsibilities at camp that prevent them from pulling (tanks, healers, people that need to rest).

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

COR often have a RNG sub which means more experience pulling )

False. Most CORs - for whatever reason - sub WHM or NIN. Its a monkey-see/monkey-do thing. CORs that see it as "another BRD" sub /WHM or /NIN because that's what BRDs sub, CORs that see it as a RNG, sub /NIN because that's what most /RNGs do. Even JP players are extremely guilty of this, in fact, its where the problem largely stems from - monkey-see/monkey-do begetting even more of monkey-see/monkey-do.

Do some pulling as MNK or DRG before you say that job doesn't matter.

Pebbles. Everyone gets them, there's even a belt that dispenses them for all jobs.

Moar excuses please.

Stage pulling isn't really necessary with a little party cooperation - even at the highest levels where overlapping pulls are a good thing, there's no reason the puller and CCer *have* to be the same person.

Way to backpedal.

Then why do you expect CORs and BRDs to pull? Because we can stage-pull. Just because we're great at doing it doesn't mean we always want to. In fact, in slaughters BRD's job role by taking the focus off of thier specialization and puts it all into pulling.

SE seems aware of that issue while the rest of the community thought the job was just fine. Glad I'm not the only one who saw the problem going on there. BRDs were all like "March, Ballad" OK I'm pulling again. I'm like... "Um, Minuets?"

Now who's being an elitist?

Do you invite many THFs to pull in merit? To pull in EXP PTs? Let them SATA? Invite them at all? Other's jobs damage do catch up. THF just gets great spike damage early on, but other jobs admittedly catch up and without a willing SATA parter, THF and /THF cannot shine.


That doesn't really make any sense. Unless you think that the puller is going to be so bad at hate control that they'll leave camp for the next mob and the current mob will *chase* them.


You're not making much sense lately. I said THF has the ability to shed hate and leave to pull. If I pop off a Slugwinder on RNG or COR, I can't just walk away from that and pull. >.>; Should I not Slug? Its the best DD WS I have until Detonator just barely nips at its heels.

It's both. People with ranged weapons get a freaking huge head start on every mob they pull, for free (well, for the cost of one piece of ammo). People with ranged magic get a moderate head start that may cost them some MP (unless it's non-MP magic like bard or ninja). People with jack shit outside of melee range are going to get hammered every step of the way back to camp *and* have a much harder time pulling one out of a group of aggro and/or linking mobs.

WAR/DRK/THF/RNG/NIN/BRD/COR/DNC/BLU/SAM/PLD/PUP all have access to ranged weapons or good pull abilities, SMN and BST are a last resort of potential links in which we sacrifice the pet to make a clean pull.

I seem to remember you feeding me the argument that WARs shouldn't pull because they'd have to give up Bomb Core to use a ranged weapon. I have to give up some DD priority to pull and you see that as fair, buts not fair to WARs for me to ask them to bring a ranged weapon? Hypocrite much?

The right job won't make you succeed at pulling. But the wrong job can very easily make you fail at it, even if you're quite skilled. And that's not even counting all the jobs that have responsibilities at camp that prevent them from pulling (tanks, healers, people that need to rest).

Look at the jobs I listed 14 jobs that succeed at pulling, well over half of the jobs in the game. I could arguably throw in RDM as the 15th, as they can also equip ranged and if they're a good RDM, should might have to give up a tathlum or hedgehog bomb to do it, but they do get bows too. Even BST does and they have no skill in archery.

3/4ths of the jobs in the game can pull with ranged or magic, and if I want to get technical, MNK and DRG can use pebbles, bringing us to 17 jobs. Your argument fails everwhere but SCH, BLM and WHM.

[IfritnoItazura]

False. Most CORs - for whatever reason - sub WHM or NIN. Its a monkey-see/monkey-do thing.
Never really had trouble with asking CORs to pull, whatever they use for support job. Call me a lazy when it comes to the philosophy of pulling, but I'm happy when a puller uses /NIN; it makes puller dying on the way back that much less likely.

Pebbles. Everyone gets them, there's even a belt that dispenses them for all jobs.
That's a bit impractical; on Ifrit, a Pellet Belt (http://www.ffxiah.com/item.php?id=15288&sid=13) is priced modestly at 9-10k, but only 0.352 sales per day. It's likely to be absent from AH most of the time.

I've had a grand total of one person (MNK) who proclaimed he has a Pellet Belt in party since I start playing.

You're not making much sense lately. I said THF has the ability to shed hate and leave to pull.
THF has the ability to not get enmity from a WS when used with TA, but doesn't have the ability to remove existing enmity already on itself. (It can steal enmity from others and add to its own, though, with Accomplice.)

As far as I know, only DRG (plus /DRG) and BST can shed enmity. Until S-E implement that wacky temporary enmity reduction thing for NIN, anyway.

I seem to remember you feeding me the argument that WARs shouldn't pull because they'd have to give up Bomb Core to use a ranged weapon. I have to give up some DD priority to pull and you see that as fair, buts not fair to WARs for me to ask them to bring a ranged weapon? Hypocrite much?
Assuming the two jobs, if pulling, would each spend same amount of time away from camp--if they spend that amount of time DD'ing, which would do more?

The one which does less damage should pull, no?

Unless you're claiming the average COR can out damage the average WAR, I'd say have the COR pull--the same argument for asking THF to pull instead of WAR.


I could arguably throw in RDM as the 15th, as they can also equip ranged and if they're a good RDM, should might have to give up a tathlum or hedgehog bomb to do it, but they do get bows too.
If you want some RDMs to pull with arrows, make sure you let them know ahead of time. We don't typically pack them (can't hit much even with capped skill), and often don't have room unless we leave something behind.

[Karinya]

Pebbles. Everyone gets them, there's even a belt that dispenses them for all jobs.

Moar excuses please.
Neither the pebbles nor the belt is all jobs. Most jobs, though. Pebbles also have shorter range than real ranged weapons, IIRC, but I suppose you can work around that.

The belt will dispense one stack of 12 pebbles every Earth hour. Have fun pulling with that.

Unless you're going to bring half a dozen pellet belts (and most players have never even seen one), MNK is not a practical puller and DRG is worse. Comparing the pellet belt to RNG, COR, BRD or THF's pulling abilities proves my point, not yours.
Then why do you expect CORs and BRDs to pull? Because we can stage-pull.
Wrong. I expect CORs to pull because they have guns (that you don't have to argue with them to convince them to bring) and they continue to contribute to a fight after they physically leave it (while their buffs are still in effect on other players). BRDs have 0-mp ranged magic and, again, stay in the fight while walking away from it.

RNG, on the other hand, do have to leave the fight when they leave the fight. So in that respect I'd agree that they're less than ideal for continuous pulling. But they still have a headstart on every mob, stealth abilities to avoid unwanted adds on the way to and from the mob, and shadowbind if something goes really wrong - in addition to whatever their subjob is.

And since they're a traditional pulling job, they're much more likely to have pulling experience - remember, this thread is from the perspective of the leader of a pickup party. If you don't personally know any of the other party members, which one do you think is more likely to have the skills to pull successfully? The RNG or the MNK? Which one already has a ranged weapon and ammo in their inventory?
In fact, in slaughters BRD's job role by taking the focus off of thier specialization and puts it all into pulling.
BRD pulling certainly does have downsides, but if it's the type of party and camp that benefits from continuous pulling (which not all of them are, but in that case there's no reason for a 0-MP DD not to pull), having the BRD pull may be the least-bad option, compared to having a DD sacrifice damage by leaving camp. Very few jobs can continue to contribute to a fight for a minute or more after physically leaving it; BRD and COR head that list.
Do you invite many THFs to pull in merit? To pull in EXP PTs? Let them SATA? Invite them at all? Other's jobs damage do catch up. THF just gets great spike damage early on, but other jobs admittedly catch up and without a willing SATA parter, THF and /THF cannot shine.
About as many as other jobs. They're somewhat disadvantaged by hate-bouncing parties, of course, but that mostly happens after 60 and Assassin can make up for it. An above-average pulling capability (compared to an equally skilled player playing a different job) doesn't hurt, certainly.

I do try not to discriminate against jobs because they're not the flavor of the month. A few jobs have serious balance problems (IMO SCH and possibly PUP atm, and both are being adjusted in 2 days) and it's arguable that THF is one of them; I think they usually do more damage than people think they're doing. It's notorious that people underrate low delay and H2H weapons if they're not actually doing the math, or having a computer do it for them.
You're not making much sense lately. I said THF has the ability to shed hate and leave to pull.
Which is false; THF can avoid accumulating hate, but once they have it they're stuck with it. Unless you're a job that really can *shed* hate - DRG and BST is pretty much it atm - you're responsible for not drawing too much in the first place. That applies just as much to RNG (especially RNG/WAR) as it does to last resort + souleater + berserk DRKs or chain-nuking BLMs.

In any case, a THF that leaves can't DE when they're not there any more than a RNG that leaves can SW when they're not there. Both suffer somewhat in damage and missed TP opportunity. They're still both usually better choices than anything else in the party.
If I pop off a Slugwinder on RNG or COR, I can't just walk away from that and pull. >.>;
You can if you were careful of enmity before you shot.

One of the worst developments of the TAU era, IMO, is that DDs don't take responsibility for their own enmity anymore. Not that there weren't some idiots before, but it's much more widespread the last couple years to see someone who would literally rather die than do 1% less damage than their maximum possible - even though becoming an MP sponge, let alone dying, slows down party exp far worse than moderating their damage to keep enmity on someone who can handle it.

Of course, it's convenient to be able to save it for a finishing shot and not have to worry about hate; but it's a sacrifice you sometimes have to make for the overall good of the party. The purpose of the party is not to beat the other DDs. (That would be meaningless anyway in a game with things like acid bolts, Warcry and Shield Break.)
I seem to remember you feeding me the argument that WARs shouldn't pull because they'd have to give up Bomb Core to use a ranged weapon.
That wasn't me, and I disagree with whoever it was.

Someone posted that many WARs will, in fact, *have* a bomb core (or something like it) rather than a ranged weapon, and you'd better tell them to switch *before* leaving town, which I agree with; if you have to specifically tell your RNG to bring a ranged weapon, then you shouldn't be inviting them for any purpose whatsoever. But either job should be prepared to pull when asked to. RNG, COR and THF should expect that they will be pulling in most of their parties, so many that the leader may think it's redundant to tell them each time, just like it would be redundant to tell a WHM, PLD, NIN, DRK or MNK what their role is going to be. At high levels BRD falls into this category too.
Look at the jobs I listed 14 jobs that succeed at pulling, well over half of the jobs in the game. I could arguably throw in RDM as the 15th, as they can also equip ranged and if they're a good RDM, should might have to give up a tathlum or hedgehog bomb to do it, but they do get bows too. Even BST does and they have no skill in archery.

3/4ths of the jobs in the game can pull with ranged or magic, and if I want to get technical, MNK and DRG can use pebbles, bringing us to 17 jobs. Your argument fails everwhere but SCH, BLM and WHM.
All of which can pull with magic, anyway, except maybe in places like Ro'Maeve or Ru'Avitau which hardly anyone camps in anymore. Actually, WHM and BLM can use pebbles too (although, oddly, not SCH - unless wiki's info is just outdated, which is possible since it doesn't list DNC either).

In any case, I never argued that *only* a few jobs could pull, just that they're *usually better*. WHM can pull. With Repose they can even stage-pull. They have Blink and Stoneskin to protect themselves while they do it, too. All of which does not add up to making it a good idea in any but the most bizarre party setups and camps. The existence of a possible pulling method for a given non-traditional-pulling job does not mean that they are going to be on par with an equally skilled player (or the same player) playing RNG, THF, COR, BRD, or non-tanking NIN, because job does matter.

[MrMageo]

I think you should add a section party upkeep.

I notice alot of the time plaers no longer respecet the party by finding a replacement, when im the leader i find it really irritating because it becomes my issue to find a replacement. No matter what the excuse is you have to leave right away blah blah blah players can always take the 30's logout to find a rep and send him to you or tll the leader i asked so and so.

As a leader now I generally expect this to happen more than once durring a party so i actively seek all in my lvl range just so i know whats out there ahead of time. Its nice knowing if you need to rep someone who just ditches your options so you can tell the group dont worry i saw a XXX seeking a few minutes ago ill get him to rep the XXX.

This also falls under afk members. I notice that often times if a PL is involved players take liberties of long AFK's for no real reason, sometimes 10 minutes or longer, at his point i would recomend a boot and invite someone else leechers kill the PT mood and generally slow things down.

On the topic of PL's i think it falls under the leaders responsibility to make sure the party members still preform there usual tasks, a suprise AFK by the PL mid pull can lead to the death of the party if your healer has been taking to much libertydoing other things (ie. WHM using banish). Just my 2 gil

[Murphie]

I notice alot of the time plaers no longer respecet the party by finding a replacement, when im the leader i find it really irritating because it becomes my issue to find a replacement. No matter what the excuse is you have to leave right away blah blah blah players can always take the 30's logout to find a rep and send him to you or tll the leader i asked so and so.I can't speak for everyone, but I know that a lot of players don't like to replace themselves for various reasons.

- They don't actually like the party, and don't want to inflict it on someone else.
- They aren't sure how much longer the party is going to last.
- They don't know what jobs the party wants.

Obviously it's going to vary from person to person, but as a party leader, I actually prefer to do the replacing myself. I want to have control of who I invite to the party.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

/shrug, think what you want, doesn't mean RNG and COR or even THF are defacto pullers.

I can honestly tell you as a COR PTs that invite me to pull have no chance of getting Corsair's Roll. There are plenty of RNGs that don't pull and object to it given what other jobs are present it should only be a last resort, not a point or which they're invited. Being ask to pull as BRD is irksome because it diminishes thier focus on buffing and its fostered the creation of several piss-poor BRDs.

BST/NIN with pet and Bow could be best puller ever, why doesn't anyone invite them? Shadows, Pets, Snarl - sounds perfect, really. Never happens.

They don't actually like the party, and don't want to inflict it on someone else.

Pretty much your best reason for force d/c or not seeking a replacement. I seriously don't want to waste anyone's time with a PT if I didn't like the PT and saw it wasn't working.

[MrMageo]

ya well i dont care for the reason they leave, (im guilty of it a few times acctually) just thought it would be a good section for the guide, most PT leaders spend lots of time bumbling around after a player leaves.

Im not going to jump to deep into your pulling debate, but i pull on every job it dosent matter what job there is always a way to pull. I pull on mage jobs with magic except rdm i use a bow and some arrows (and as a RDM i enjoy pulling in a meripo gives me something else to do), on DD jobs where im not tanking i pull with voke or range. I havent lvld cor or BRD much but i know that cors get guns and elegy/requiem make pretty great pulling tools. Carby is the best puller in this game, and if i got invites on BST my pet would do a bang up job as well.

Its a role that changes to what the party needs, Today i was pulling on my drk with a thf in the PT, but we were setting up a THF Sata onto the ninja tank so why should he lose out on TP for sata VB. I could afford to miss some swings since i generally have the hate on me SANS SE/LR/BRSK after a few swings, and am able to make up damage with those abilities.

In meripos i pull with RDM fairly often, rdm/nin to be exact. I line then up more effectivley then BRD because sleep 2 lasts forever. Ive pulled chain 150+ before. With a BRD in the party. We would alternate chains so we both didnt get immensly boerd with what we were doing. As much fun as it is to main heal im sure its just as much fun playing the same 6 songs all day.

Hell even DRG can pull if you do it correctly, sure youll take some hits but dont you have a main healer. The fact is lots of times parties wont have a defacto puller, because there are none. For some reason since TAU everyone is afraid to take damage for some reason and that dosent just apply to 50+ thats 10-75. With weak mobs comes weak players.

[Vyuru]

Why would I be pulling with Pebbles as a Dragoon when I can pull with a Chakram? >.>

Will I be the dedicated puller even though I have a decent pulling weapon?

Heck no! :P

fact is lots of times parties wont have a defacto puller, because there are none.

I have yet to find an instance where one of these jobs was not LFG: Warrior, Thief, Ranger, Corsair, Bard or Sam/Rng.

I notice alot of the time plaers no longer respecet the party by finding a replacement, when im the leader i find it really irritating because it becomes my issue to find a replacement. No matter what the excuse is you have to leave right away blah blah blah players can always take the 30's logout to find a rep and send him to you or tll the leader i asked so and so.


Depending on the amount of people on, the day, the star's alignment, it can take far longer to find a replacement than 30 seconds, especially with all the AFK people LFG lately.

Also, unless they bring in someone who is an identical job/subjob combo, and in some cases identical level, I am easily offended by people replacing themselves without asking me first.

I, not you, am the party leader.
I, not you, have a specific plan for this party.
I, not you, will decide who, what, and when to invite to the party.

If you do not like that then form your own party. I will not tolerate backseat party leaders who, after I invite them, proceed to tell me who I HAVE to invite and where I HAVE to go with the party. I will accept suggestions, I don't take orders from someone too lazy to form their own party and who will not take responsibility for if/when the party goes bad.

Back to the people getting their own replacements thing. It is always best to tell the party leader something like, "Hey, I need to leave in about 30 minutes, do you want to find a replacement for me or shall I?" This gives the leader a chance to find out how long the other people will be staying, and it gives him the option of having you look or looking himself.

I have had far to many key jobs replace themselves with something idiotic, like a Whm replacing themselves with a Warrior or something equally stupid. That is unacceptable to me. If you are going to replace yourself at least get someone who can fit your role in the party.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

A lot of players no longer respect replacing themselves because very few JP players respected it to start with and just leave when they damn well please. Its a western courtesty and always has been, JP players usually only observe it when the MMO and the majority of its player base isn't on thier home turf. Switch to WoW or EQ and they suddenly replace themselves, know english and will seek out and request help from the english speaking player.

But for me, unless I'm playing a DD, replacing myself is an absolute nightmare. Forget finding a RDM or BRD to replace me when I leave as BRD or COR, I'm not going to find one cuz well over half of the primadonnas are AFK or just pretending to be.

[Karinya]

/shrug, think what you want, doesn't mean RNG and COR or even THF are defacto pullers.
True, what I think doesn't make them de facto pullers. How the majority of players play the game makes them de facto pullers, the same way it makes SMN a de facto healer/support and NIN a de facto tank. Some people are unhappy with each of those roles, too. But if they show up to a party they expect to play it according to what is needed by the party, which is often not pure DD.
I can honestly tell you as a COR PTs that invite me to pull have no chance of getting Corsair's Roll.
So what? Screw corsair's roll, it's like 5% anyway. A good puller is worth more than that.
There are plenty of RNGs that don't pull and object to it given what other jobs are present it should only be a last resort, not a point or which they're invited.
I've never actually seen this attitude from a RNG ingame - only from you on these forums. I don't notice any other rangers showing up to agree with you, either. (Maybe they just haven't noticed the thread, though. Want to check the RNG forums for threads on pulling and see how many RNGs think it should be someone else's job?)
Being ask to pull as BRD is irksome because it diminishes thier focus on buffing and its fostered the creation of several piss-poor BRDs.
Players' willingness to accept, not boot and even invite back piss-poor BRDs has a lot more to do with that (the same as it did for RDM).

That, in turn, comes from the fact that BRD is extremely overpowered in party play - even a piss-poor BRD is better than almost any other job, skilled and well equipped, in the same party slot. You have to get into truly horrible BRD territory before replacing them with anything but another BRD (or maybe COR, but they're ultra-rare) will actually improve your exp/hr. Even two-BRD parties can rarely replace *one* bard and perform better. (Manaburns excepted.)
BST/NIN with pet and Bow could be best puller ever, why doesn't anyone invite them? Shadows, Pets, Snarl - sounds perfect, really. Never happens.
Um, maybe because BST never, ever, ever look for parties? In my entire time playing FFXI the number of BST I have seen with their lfp flag up can be counted on one hand. If they're soloing anyway it wouldn't cost them anything to solo with flag up - but they don't. You can argue about why, but clearly it's the BSTs that don't want parties and not vice versa. Seeing a BST that actually wants to join a party is rarer than seeing King Behemoth unclaimed.

[MrMageo]

Um, maybe because BST never, ever, ever look for parties? In my entire time playing FFXI the number of BST I have seen with their lfp flag up can be counted on one hand. If they're soloing anyway it wouldn't cost them anything to solo with flag up - but they don't. You can argue about why, but clearly it's the BSTs that don't want parties and not vice versa. Seeing a BST that actually wants to join a party is rarer than seeing King Behemoth unclaimed.

Acctually up till a short time ago BST was not invited to party because the pet would cut into XP, now BST is considered a solo job because of it(also most players still do not know that pets no longer affect XP). I personally invite BST's often to parties now because they bring another weapon to fihgt with. They fall into the anon/not seeking section of this guide ftr. To this date i have never known a BST to turn down an invite to a party except in rare circumstances.

Such as, More often than not, players now lvl BST so they can solo and not deal with PT situations. When i level BST i do it because i get 100% of the drops, its a goldmine job for beast seals, crystals and random junk that usually gets spread through a 6 person party. It also allows me to escae the BS that comes with a party, downtime, replacing members, stupid players etc, etc, etc. Which is the reason they run around flagless and/or anon.

Im sure if you took the time to ask a BST if they wanted to party, they will accept, the fact is, people still over look them. If a MNK or a BST was seeking, 99% of the time the MNK will get the invite because its a proven PT member. Most players have never seen a BST in a party situation and dont know what they bring to the table.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

True, what I think doesn't make them de facto pullers. How the majority of players play the game makes them de facto pullers, the same way it makes SMN a de facto healer/support and NIN a de facto tank. Some people are unhappy with each of those roles, too. But if they show up to a party they expect to play it according to what is needed by the party, which is often not pure DD.

Difference - I pay for my EXP. Each kill, each fight. SMN doesn't do that, PLD doesn't do that. Only other classes that really do that are BST, PUP, THF and NIN. The rest of you buy armor and replace it or sit on your butts to get MP back and spend paltry amounts on food. SMN avatar melee and RDM DD is too weak to be worthwhile in a EXP PT, which is why they're relegated to the roles they have. Mine isn't.

Just as time is money, EXP is gil to me - I get what I want or I keep on seeking. I owe the PT no role but the one I choose for myself.

So what? Screw corsair's roll, it's like 5% anyway. A good puller is worth more than that.

You seem to enjoy being wrong lately. At worst, its 10% and often, its a lot better than that. Sanction is 10%. I only use it if I'm placed in situations where I get what I want (i.e. not pulling or /WHM in merit) or I'm PTing with jobs that aren't invited to merits often, they died and we can still EXP without them we're or doing endgame/mission farming - that's about as altruistic as I get about Corsair's Roll, otherwise it's a gimmick to me.

I've never actually seen this attitude from a RNG ingame - only from you on these forums. I don't notice any other rangers showing up to agree with you, either. (Maybe they just haven't noticed the thread, though. Want to check the RNG forums for threads on pulling and see how many RNGs think it should be someone else's job?)

You clearly don't know RNGs then.

High Delay Weapon + Competitive Camp = Like hell I'm pulling. That's common knowledge in COR and RNG circles. We've been over this, person with the lowest delay weapon wins. That said, don't expect RNGs to start camping Loxley Bow just to be a puller. Again, we come to DD and the DD bows have high delay. Even with Velocity Shot now, there are pullers with lower delay. Only COR gets a passable low delay gun at 72 for EXP and most don't want to use Peacemaker to DD, its a pull-only gun and guess what we're not doing if we're using that?.

Players' willingness to accept, not boot and even invite back piss-poor BRDs has a lot more to do with that (the same as it did for RDM).

Actually, no, it doesn't. Its very hard to maintain a two-minute duration buff and meet a PTs chain # wants. Perhaps its easier at lower levels, but in merit camps these days, buffs have to fall to the wayside for high chain numbers. That's why SE is giving the job more to do


Um, maybe because BST never, ever, ever look for parties? In my entire time playing FFXI the number of BST I have seen with their lfp flag up can be counted on one hand. If they're soloing anyway it wouldn't cost them anything to solo with flag up - but they don't. You can argue about why, but clearly it's the BSTs that don't want parties and not vice versa. Seeing a BST that actually wants to join a party is rarer than seeing King Behemoth unclaimed.

False, I see BSTs commonly seek PTs, your server =/= reality. Even moreso these days with the penaltys removed and Snarl being an actual PT asset. I've gotten three PT invites in 66 levels, two unsolicited, guess how many hours of seeking with our flags up drives us to go back to soloing? Countless. I could seek while soloing and very little would change about my invite rate. We're just not seen as part of the DD clique to the high level community, even when we outparse thier precious WARs and only we get Relic Axe and then also Temperence Axe >.>;, but I digress.

More people pick up BST these days because the EXP PT climate, quite frankly, sucks and they don't wish to deal with PTs. Same reason a lot of people solo thier jobs to sub level. See also: PUP, DNC, NIN and any job that can solo for EXP.

[MrMageo]

also: PUP, DNC, NIN and any job that can solo for EXP

Yes those are the same deal I use PUP/DNC/BST/NIN to stay away from parties build beastcoins etc. Hell even SMN/RNG/COR id rather solo then party. I hate beingput into a roll because of party rolls defined by people in the old days it wasnt uncommon for many jobs to have several subs to us if a party needed it to preform a different duty, then the "Job" its been defined to do by the community. I pull because i like to control the speed of the party, i find most players cant comprehend the chain times, or even know when its safe to pull MP wise. I chose to solo my way to 37 so i dont need to deal with people learning to do their jobs etc. I chose to not /WHM at 75 RDM because i despise ToA camps, if i dont have WHM sub i dont get invited nearly as often (Burn)(Party)(No Thanks!) I prefer to use skill playing this game and the fact is many players lack skill now and 90% of RDM's dont know they can fill a plethera of rolls depending on the subjob the choose. (Including Many 75's, BRDs RDMs especially.) Most jobs have gotten to lazy to learn or do things that they used to do. WHich is why i am such a strong advocate against ToA meripo's. I do them from time to time when i want a few more merits quickly, even then i go /DNC so i can use skill instead of laziness. If i can escape all the BS that comes with partying i will happily do it because frankly Parties make me sick to my stomach now. No one has any balls anymore, everyone /nin incase they get it, well guess what getting smacked in the face once in a while is part of the game, what happens when/if they nerf utsusemi when used as a sub.Well i can see 90% of the people who party now sucking very bad at their Jobs.

I have yet to find an instance where one of these jobs was not LFG: Warrior, Thief, Ranger, Corsair, Bard or Sam/Rng.


even if these players are abundant saying they are defacto pullers is as bad as saying SMN/RDM/SCH are defacto main healers. Hell bluemage can /WHMand main heal too so throw it in that classification as well. You say BBQ is being elitist but infact BBQ is the furthest thing from it right now. All jobs in this game mold to what the party needs, not what people say there job is. If i followed that i would have WHM @ 37 only because RDM is pegged as a main healer. But no i have blu, blm, pld, war, ,sch, nin, brd, smn, drk, thf, dnc, and cor all leveled or being leveled to fit my parties needs.

Pulling /NIN
Stunner /DRK
Hate contol /THF
Healing /whm, /dnc, /blu, /sch
Crowd control /BLM, /BLU
Support, /DNC,/BRD,/COR, /SMN
Enfeebling, /WHM, /BLM
Tank, /PLD,/BLU,/WAR
2nd voke, /WAR
MB, /BLM, /SCH
SC /NIN,/DRK,/PLD,/BLU

The reason can do all that is because i dont lose the ability to Cure/MB/SC/Enfeeble/Support/Crowd Control with any of those subs, they only enhance my abilities in any situtaion and even provide me some new ones.
If i only let myself be pegged as a healer and only used /WHM all those things that a party may need that /WHM isnt included in are lost to me. Pegging jobs such as RNG/COR/THF to a defacto puller is BS, and elitist. But perhaps your of the new age of the game (post ToA) where none of the above situations apply.

[Vyuru]

Im sure if you took the time to ask a BST if they wanted to party, they will accept, the fact is, people still over look them.

I practically make it a point to ask Bsts if they want to join my parties, before and after the changes to Bst, 99.99% of all Bsts I ask laugh at me and call me a n00b for asking.

What I see from Bsts on forums and what I see from Bsts ingame are two very, very different things.

even if these players are abundant saying they are defacto pullers is as bad as saying SMN/RDM/SCH are defacto main healers.

Two very different roles. It costs most jobs no change in their party roles to be a puller. Smn/Rdm/Sch can either main heal or provide buffs/DD, one or the other, so yes, they do give something up.

Hell bluemage can /WHMand main heal too so throw it in that classification as well.

Actually I do if there is nothing better or I want a backup healer/party buffer.

So basically what you are saying is that it's wrong for us to expect people to be ready to play any aspect of their job?

Yes I expect Smn, Blu, Rdm, Sch to main heal if needed.

Yes I expect War, Thf, Rng, Cor, Sam and Brd to pull if needed.

In the case of Thf and Rng that is their job for what, the first entire first 70 levels of playing? Thf just flat out, it's always their job to pull. Rng I expect to pull so long as they use a crossbow, longbow is fine for pulling too, just not in crowded camps. However since I don't take my parties to crowded camps, Rng is golden to pull in my book.

You say BBQ is being elitist

You need to reread my posts if you think that in any of them I called BBQ elitist. I support BBQ's statements about 90% of the time.

Pegging jobs such as RNG/COR/THF to a defacto puller is BS

Cor is one of the few jobs that may have an excuse not to pull, Rng is situational depending on weapon used and how crowded the camp is. Thf? The Thf is pulling unless we have some other kind of puller, like Brd for instance.

BS you say? Hardly. As I said before, I expect people to be ready to perform in any aspect of their job that is asked of them to perform.

[IfritnoItazura]

A lot of players no longer respect replacing themselves because very few JP players respected it to start with and just leave when they damn well please. Its a western courtesty and always has been, JP players usually only observe it when the MMO and the majority of its player base isn't on thier home turf. Switch to WoW or EQ and they suddenly replace themselves, know english and will seek out and request help from the english speaking player.
Geez. Why not blame the Japanese players for badly play BRDs, global warming, and proliferation of nuclear technology, too, while you're at it.

The clue is in your own phrase: "western courtesy". Except, replace 'courtesy' with 'culture'. JP players don't replace themselves even in JP parties normally; it's not expected of them, and in fact runs counters to how JP parties operate.

Japanese players like to form party in city, then head out to camp together. Then, there they stay together for reasonable amount of time (usually 2-3 hours), and everyone leaves at the same time.

If I understand them correctly, they think it's discourteous to put up the seek flag when you only have an hour, then drag someone else to camp when you leave before the party is ready go. Replacing yourself is a form of rudeness--not so much for keeping the party going, but for ditching party before it's time to go.

As for Japanese players leaving before an NA party's done, I've seen it happen two ways usually: 1) the party wasn't working, and they decided they wanted out. 2) The party kept going after 3+ hours, and they had to go.

In the second case, they often don't know what do--because by the time they party for 2-3 hours, JP parties would leave normally. (Their English skill often isn't strong enough to discuss with the party what they should do, either!) Some of them would actually find replacement, some would inform the party they are leaving 10-20 minutes early, hoping the party leader would take care of it (disband party or find replacement), and some wouldn't say a thing until they really have to go, and disappears fast. Those who did that very last thing are usually those whose English aren't too great, and don't know how to communicate using Auto Translator.

For me personally, I don't like being the replacement. Never know how long a party is going to be; hate running to camp only to see the the exp coming to a halt because someone else has to go, or party disband in 25 minutes, or people are tired and they fall asleep mid fight. So, my search comments says "Torikae / Replacement ◀No Thanks.▶" whenever I seek on RDM.

I'll give you one guess players of which language group always ignore my search comments and try to invite me as replacement? Now, that's rude.

* * *

By the way, lately I've discovered that a quite a few "Japanese" players on Ifrit are actually Hong Kong players in disguise. They often use the Japanese version of FFXI (or Windower), and put up their flags as 'J', sans the 'E'. I think some of them even put ◀English▶ ◀No thanks.▶ in their search comments. :rofl:

* * *

Um, maybe because BST never, ever, ever look for parties? In my entire time playing FFXI the number of BST I have seen with their lfp flag up can be counted on one hand. If they're soloing anyway it wouldn't cost them anything to solo with flag up - but they don't. You can argue about why, but clearly it's the BSTs that don't want parties and not vice versa. Seeing a BST that actually wants to join a party is rarer than seeing King Behemoth unclaimed.
On Ifrit, it's not that rare to see BST looking for party.

Acctually up till a short time ago BST was not invited to party because the pet would cut into XP, now BST is considered a solo job because of it(also most players still do not know that pets no longer affect XP).
Jug pets have never cut into a party's exp, as far as I know, and neither has charmed pets which are EM or lower. This has been the case for years. And, charmed pets higher than EM still affect exp, for both the BST and the party.

The changes are to the exp cut for the BST player himself, only; none of it affects the party.

[MrMageo]

So basically what you are saying is that it's wrong for us to expect people to be ready to play any aspect of their job?

Yes I expect Smn, Blu, Rdm, Sch to main heal if needed.

Yes I expect War, Thf, Rng, Cor, Sam and Brd to pull if needed.

I did not once say that i dont expect people to be ready to play any aspect of their job. You take my words out of context.

is as bad as saying SMN/RDM/SCH are defacto main healers.

I think that right there sums it up, SMN/RDM/SCH have more to offer outside of main healing but somehow they have been tossed into a main healing roll 90% of the time. Im not debating the fact they need to do as the party requires but again i say, what about the rest of this stuff that RDM's traditionally do. Instead of just lining up a bunch of DD and a healer andsaying lhulk smash a bunch of times.

Pulling /NIN
Stunner /DRK
Hate contol /THF
Healing /whm, /dnc, /blu, /sch
Crowd control /BLM, /BLU
Support, /DNC,/BRD,/COR, /SMN
Enfeebling, /WHM, /BLM
Tank, /PLD,/BLU,/WAR
2nd voke, /WAR
MB, /BLM, /SCH
SC /NIN,/DRK,/PLD,/BLU

But thats all over looked now last time i was asked to come subbing anything other than WHM to a party was about a month into ToA release. I seriously doubt there are many RDM's who have ever Tanked a meripo, or /THF to provide more hate control. Keep in mind these are pre ToA when everyone wasnt a pussy and parties generally had RDM/WHM/BLM on the backline. It was in the days when people understood that certain jobs such as RDM were more versatile then just main heal. Have you ever seen a NIN/BLM?, probably not, what about NIN/RDM, again highly doubtful. But do you know that ninjas used to use spells other than utsusemi. Did you know that NIN is one of the highest DD jobs in the game? Have you ever seen one put up 1500 damage in 30's? again i doubt it. Why? because to many people have spent the last 2 years being the "Default" that the community subjecates on them. To say i dont advocate players being ready to preform any duties there job can do is BS, i have seen Job's preform many different tasks, and have preformed many myself. Of course this was before the plauge that is ToA, and all jobs have been pigeon holed 1 way or another into a solitary role. IE. SMN main heal. you do kow that SMN's used to be used to replace BLM on the backline solely for the MB? probably not. I have been around since Zilart started i have seen the evolution of the Blink Tank, i watched the decline of RNG, and the surge of the BRD, i have seen more of this games evoluion and recession (ToA) then most people have seen. I think i know a thing or two about what jobs can and cant do. There are very few jobs in this game that are one trick ponies, well zero to be honest WHM/NIN is a great SC partner but when was the last time you saw that happen?

Also on a side note this pgeon holing typically is a NA thing. JP players study every mob and know every thing about a party before it sets out. If they ask you to /WHM its because they need healing support, if they ask you to /DRK its because they want you to stun a Move that will hurt the party. Personally I turn down NA parties consistently, i find NA players to be extremley rude and unpleasent to party with. Id rather sit in a party for 2-3 hours not talking, or occasionally congratulating and thanking the JP players in there own language. To know when im asked to come /XXX its for an acctual reason not because someone saw on the internet that its how the job has to be played. JP parties run smoother because they cover every aspect they need in a party (which is why they use versatille jobs such as RDM) weather its a 3rd wheel SC partner, a secondary voke, a puller or a main healer.

[Selphiie The Enchantress]

I'm pro-ranger puller, Rangers ARE Pullers.

I'm sorry Omgwtfbbqkitten but you say that the community is right by putting RDMs in the back and that SE may say one thing but the community says different.

BUT The community says "Rangers are pullers" and you don't agree with that? Just because shooting costs you money?

I'm sorry but THATS YOUR CHOICE to spend the money to pull, It is your choice that you are Ranger, you shouldn't expect the party to give you the loot that drops just because it costs money to exp. It costs EVERYONE money to exp, it costs that Dark Knight money for his Hauberk to do extra damage, it costs Paladins extra money for that Adaman Cuirass for them to take damage. The party shouldn't pay you to be there.

Having the "It's my money i do what i want with this game" attitute doesn't fly in FFXI. It may be your money but your wasting the money of 5 other party members by doing the job that the community has set you up to be.

You put other people down for playing their jobs the way they want to play it like Mr Mageo's RDM/DNC but then you get defensive when people tell you that Rangers are pullers and you want to play as a full DD instead of what the community set up Ranger to be.

No...

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Geez. Why not blame the Japanese players for badly play BRDs, global warming, and proliferation of nuclear technology, too, while you're at it.

Like it or not, a lot of players look to the JP side of the FFXI for a point of reference on how to play. The logic is the Japanese players have been at this longer, so they know what to do. Its utterly flawed logic, but the younger portion or the western player base actively does this.

If you have played any western MMOs (possibly sans WoW), you'll see it is common courtesy to notify a PT of when you are leaving and replace yourself. Yet due to the luxury of the Japanese really only living in a couple of time zones, they don't do this much at all, espeically on the most densely populated servers.

If I have a JP WHM and RDM in a PT and one has to go, both leave and they 9 times out of 10 will not (1) give advance notice and (2) nor will they find a replacement. They just leave.

Western players consider that extremely rude. We live in different time zones, acknowledge it and make the effort to work with each other by finding replacements. But when half the community refuses to do that, should it be any surprise when other players just stop making the effort?

Fact is, if you're JP on a smaller server, you have to be will to work with NAs and EUs to get things done, but JP on higher-pop servers just love to take advantage of the fact they don't need us and actively show it in EXP PTs. How they behave would be fine - if FFXI were an JP-only MMORPG. But its not.

[Selphiie The Enchantress]

Difference - I pay for my EXP. Each kill, each fight. SMN doesn't do that, PLD doesn't do that. Only other classes that really do that are BST, PUP, THF and NIN. The rest of you buy armor and replace it or sit on your butts to get MP back and spend paltry amounts on food. SMN avatar melee and RDM DD is too weak to be worthwhile in a EXP PT, which is why they're relegated to the roles they have. Mine isn't.

Just as time is money, EXP is gil to me - I get what I want or I keep on seeking. I owe the PT no role but the one I choose for myself.

Let the RDMs DD, they get what they want or they keep seeking. They don't have to party with people who don't let them DD they can easily find another party.

Let the SMNs DD, they get what they want or they keep seeking.

The problem with you is, you expect all these other jobs to conform with what the community sees them as, BUT you have to be this special case with Ranger, the community sees Rangers as pullers but you don't want to. Go ahead and leave and continue seeking, but 99% of the partys are going to invite you as a puller.

You think your the only one paying to exp, but your not. If that was the case people would show up to partys naked. I know THFs dont farm their ass off for peacock charms just to be told they don't spend gil to exp.

That 2mil neckpiece tells me otherwise. The squid sushi they popped tells me otherwise.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Sorry, but if I'm playing an MMO where lotting on drops is taboo and I'm kissing funds goodbye per shot without any form of of compensation, I get to choose whether or not I take the party based on the role requested of me.

When an invite is sent to any player, they are not obligated to take that invite. If the PTs wishes do not match my own, it is my right to turn down that PT and continue seeking. If I make a search comment saying I'm not going to pull, then I'm not going to pull and if you invite me to pull, the invite will be rejected or party dropped because my wishes were not acknowledged.

I will conform to PTs needs if those PTs needs suit my needs or what I desire to do. Anyone can play by those rules, but some are easily swayed into easy EXP due to thier abilities, I'm not one of those people. As a COR, I never left Whitegate without the proper bullets for my level, even with Evokers's Roll in my favor. Not everyone is that strong-willed, though. As a BRD and RDM I turned down invites left and right until I had what I felt I needed to continue. Soloing is a different bag, but I've often stopped levelling even in that situation to get what I needed before moving forward.

That's my initiative though, and that's why I got compliments on my jobs taking them through the levels, even though I did quit RDM.

Some people can look at thier gil and they may not see a the big deal, but they're probably not spending half thier in-game income at 75 on ammo, tools and jugs. The major spending for many other jobs eventually comes to an end. Never ends with RNG, COR, NIN, THF, BST and PUP. Never. There will always be resources required to keep going.

Am I complaining? Nope, I knew that going in. I accept it. I accept no job in FFXI is a charity case. I've learned to live with it. But even then, the "All jobs pay to to level" bit is just nonsense to me. You don't pay per swing, you don't pay per cast, you don't pay per mob. You possibly paid on time and then got to perform the action over and over again.

And that's why I reserve the right to object to pulling and taking a pass on EXP PTs if I don't want to pull. I don't wish to be invited as a puller because anyone could fit that description, I want to be invited for what my real specialties are.

I don't see what is so hard about that to understand.

[Selphiie The Enchantress]

Then i dont want to hear you complain when a SMN has their Avatar out 24/7 instead of just sitting in the back and curing and using blood pacts.

I want to be invited for what my real specialties are.

You know what SMN real specialties are, using their avatars to their full potential, but apparantly thats not the case with you or the FFXI community. No, you and the FFXI community says: sit back and curebot in between bloodpacts. Nobody is going to invite a ranger to stand there while the monk pulls with pebbles, they are going to give you a hard time and then boot you.

Red Mages have en-spells, but you seem to hate it when the RDMs are in the front. Letting them play to what their real specialties are will mean letting them do everything they can do with their job, and thats including letting them stand in the front and use enspells and DD with the sword.

So don't say you want to be invited to do what you want to do until you accept inviting others to let them do what they want to do.

And don't say "well the party benefits more from the rdm being in the back and hasting and curing, blah blah"

well the party will benefit more from the Ranger who can pull from farther away than the monk who comes back half dead because he had to get close to throw pebbles that never are sold on the Auction House.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

well the party will benefit more from the Ranger who can pull from farther away than the monk who comes back half dead because he had to get close to throw pebbles that never are sold on the Auction House.

And in this statement, you make the same exact mistake about RNG as you accuse other people do of RDM on SMN.

You define them by a subjob.

If a RDM wants to DD (or, more accurately, try to DD), we'll see. If they want to MB, just ask, I'll set up a SC. I'm not going to tell them not to enfeeble, I want that, actually.

If a SMN want to do Ward/Rage pacts - fine by me so long as they help close the fight and assist with curing. No problems there. I often find a problem with SMNs that don't summon at all to do Ward Pacts at least.

But telling me to come /NIN is like saying "Hey, come do less damage in PT." Nah, I can watch my hate just fine, I can pull if absolutely needed and will if no one else can and if I have accepted the invite. But turn down the chance to break 1.5k or even 2k damage?

Nah.

I didn't sub /NIN for well over half of my career, dinged 75 as /WAR, actually. Love my /SAM sub since it offers similar defenses to /NIN and a boost to STR. I can be defined by something other than /NIN, thanks. Same goes for COR.

[Selphiie The Enchantress]

You dont have to be /nin to pull

Your a RANGER

and in the communitys eyes, thats a puller, you seem to be one to support what the community thinks.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Not really, its understandable that people might think I agree with what the community thinks. I don't, I just accept what the community thinks. People aren't wrong with inviting anyone for any reason unless they didn't read the search comment. When the community doesn't respect a player's stated wishes, then the community is wrong.

If RDM lists /WHM in the SJ line, expect to be asked for it. Same goes for /NIN and RNGs. If I don't wish to sub /NIN, I may still list it just to let people know I'm not a complete slacker, but also mention I just don't want to sub /NIN or pull.

[Selphiie The Enchantress]

Then why wouldn't you want to pull as a RNG ever? Your a RANGER that is a puller, you shouldn't be so stubborn as to seek and say you don't want to pull. I sure as hell wouldn't invite you because in my opinion your too scared to use the 50 or 100gil to shoot an arrow, to pull a mob back to camp. If your too afraid to pull you need to retire that job right now.

There is no "im not in the mood to pull" if your a ranger and the party leader needs a puller then your pulling, or else your wasting everyone elses time and your own time by turning down party invites because you "dont feel like pulling".

You sit there and laugh with me when warriors seek for Burn Partys only because they are too stubborn to take any party that doesn't have a bard, yet you sit there in your /seacom with an equally stupid comment.

I mean how retarded is seeing:

RNG75/WAR37
Puller No Thanks
Its like seeing

WHM75/BLM37
Healer No Thanks

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

I mean how retarded is seeing:

RNG75/WAR37
Puller No Thanks
Its like seeing

WHM75/BLM37
Healer No Thanks

You're talking about merit levels now, which is a completely different ballgame for RNG, BRD and COR have since eclipsed RNG in pulling ability and THF is now a distant third. At that level more than any other, you're inviting me as a DD or not at all, most likely.

COR gets Peacemaker at 72 and loses a lot of arguments against pulling in the DDx4, support x1, healer x1 setups, but still pulls a hell of a good argument for DD in the DDx3, RDM, BRD, COR setups.

RNG's ranged delay kills them in merit camps in ways it won't affect BRD, COR or THF. The only way pulling is even practical for RNG at that point is (1) empty camp or (2) Arrowburn (yes, they're back). There isn't going to be much fussing about pulling when you have 3-4 RNGs there, we'll each have a go at shadowbinding to claim if the BRD or COR hasn't pulled already.

[Selphiie The Enchantress]

It doesn't matter what freakin level you are, the JOB Ranger has been classified by the community as one of the main jobs that pull.

If your in a party with every other job that can pull even a THF 9 times out of 10 the leader will ask you to pull because your a ranger, your specialty is RANGED ATTACK. I don't care if your 12, i don't care if your 75. Theres not always going to be a THF or BRD or COR for you to leech exp off of in merit partys, so you need to suck it up and play the RANGER job, if you don't want to pull then quit it, because you don't need to be playing a job where you don't want to perform a task that most benefits the party.

Party setup is: RNG, PLD, DRG, DRG, MNK, WHM, RDM

Are you telling me your so stuck up that your going to ask one of the DRGs to pull. That your honestly going to tell them to go back to town and grab a pebble belt?

You need to quit the job seriously if your so uptight about your money.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Are you telling me your so stuck up that your going to ask one of the DRGs to pull.

If you sat and actually read even 50% of what I've said, you'd wouldn't be jumping to these absurd conclusions. I would pull in that setup, at EXP levels. I'd wouldn't accept the invite at merit level if the situation was a burn camp, but if it was another camp, unpopulated or with IT++, I probably would.

I am not obligated to anyone just because I seek a PT, I'm obligated once people have read my search comment and invite me for what I offer. If I don't say I don't want to pull, that means I'm open to the option. If I do say I don't want to pull, I reject the invite because you clearly did not read my search comment.

[Celeal]

*may be off topic*

Actually there are situation which a MNK can pull without without range attack or provoke or chi-bash... I had done that in the past:

(1) If the mob is aggro by sight, just stand in front of the mob at max aggro distance, get aggro and *pull* it to the camp.
(2) If the mob is aggro by sound, just stand at the max. aggro range, get aggro and run back to the camp with the mob.

It is not an ideal way to pull (if a party is builded correctly).

*Back to topic*
I think it is reasonable for a party to request RNG to pull in exp. parties (in general, regardless of level range). Well, the player's choice of accept or reject the role of pulling is another story.

It is common to have more than one puller looking for mobs when the camp is packed with parties.

[MrMageo]

Your main quable seems to be over money. BBQ

every job has to spend money in some way, RNG isnt so special. I dont see rangers running around with 8 elemental staves NQ on my server will cost you 750K to buy all 8. I have 4 HQ staves drk,wind,ice,earth and it cost me a little over 2 million to get them, not including the orginal 300 for NQ. Nor do i see them required to have a Hauby or PCC. RNG is regarded as one of the cheaper jobs to level, Bolts/Arrows are relativley cheap or very easily crafted. You seem to like to make excuses for it to look favorable to you.

I seem to remember you thrashing me about RDM/DNC saying it only hurts my party and gimps XP. Well i think your hypocritical veiws are BS and i told you that it was BS before. I am the same way if i want to melee i wait for a party to invite me to do it. But the thing is I am going to do what the party needs me to do as well just in a different way. I dont take away haste or refresh if someone asks me to be the puller or main healer, like you would do with corsair roll. Try subbing SAM you get third eye and still crazy damage, but since your so hell bent on saving 100G you can continue to complain and have it fall on deaf ears. I have no sympathy for you in this debate, just my own opinion that a job should come and do what the party needs, that includes a RNG, COR pulling and not "punishing" the party because he is upset cuz he has to do something other then auto attack and hit macro's.

[IfritnoItazura]

If I have a JP WHM and RDM in a PT and one has to go, both leave and they 9 times out of 10 will not (1) give advance notice and (2) nor will they find a replacement. They just leave.
Sorry that happened to you, but for me, that's pretty uncommon. Then again, I can read enough Japanese to know when something is up, and can toss up a "◀Time remaining▶ ◀everyone▶?" if I suspect someone has to go soon.

Western players consider that extremely rude.
Japanese players also consider leaving without a warning ahead of time to be rude--they certainly do not do that on a regular basis in JP parties. I'm not completely sure why some JP players do it in NA parties, beyond the language/auto-translator difficulties.

Of course, far more NA players did that to me than JP players, whether it's extremely rude for Western players or not.

We live in different time zones, acknowledge it and make the effort to work with each other by finding replacements. But when half the community refuses to do that, should it be any surprise when other players just stop making the effort?
You exaggerate way too much; if I get a dollar for every "My LS needs me" or other "gotta-go-now" excuses from Western players, and pay a buck for every time JP players disband without at least a 10 minute warning, I can treat myself to quite a few steak dinners on the balance.

There are jerks on every continent, but generally JP players are reasonably considerate of others, by Japanese and US cultural norms--as much as the language barrier permits.

* * *

You can always put up a "◀Japanese▶ ◀No thanks.▶" in your search comments when you seeking PUGs, if you think the JPs are so horrible.

I've always been treated well in JP-majority parties, even when I don't let on I know the language. Never had much problem with JP players who answer my invites when I take on the party leader role, either.

To each his own...

[Selphiie The Enchantress]

My response to Rangers who don't want to pull:

http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg260/ScreenshotsFFXI/whmwar.jpg

[Aksannyi]

LOL WHM/WAR

Caps filter wtf.

[IfritnoItazura]

◀healing▶ is intended to mean /heal on.

I've not met any RNG who refuses to pull, so unless BBQ transfers to Ifrit, it shall remain a theoretical problem for me. :P

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

◀healing▶ is intended to mean /heal on.

I've not met any RNG who refuses to pull, so unless BBQ transfers to Ifrit, it shall remain a theoretical problem for me. :P

That's it, I'm starting a DiV literacy campaign.

[Aksannyi]

OMG look! It's George W. Bbqkitten!

[Silent Howler]

Level gap: Try to keep the levels of the party members close, don’t invite people 4-5 levels out of your level range because you can’t find a healer or can’t find a tank, it is better to just sit and wait, which brings me to my next point.

I still remember one experience I had. I believe I was Puppetmaster at the time and got an invite for Eastern Altepa Desert. I was the first person he asked, but because I was busy with something and needed to change jobs I ended up being the last one to join the party. Before he let me in I even asked, "do you still need me?" and he said yes. So I grabbed a Teleport-Alepa and rode out to the party. After three fights the leader had the realization that I was "too high" (It was like a 30-33 party...) and told me to leave because I was killing their exp. I'll just say I never looked forward to being in the same party with him again...

[MrMageo]

Speaking of level gap does anyone notice the gap is shortening, i remember when i first started playing the gap was 4, then 3, now its 2, anyone want to take bets on when the gap will be 1 or 0 i say by the end of the year i put all my gil on it.

[Vyuru]

With comments such as:

I seriously doubt there are many RDM's who have ever Tanked a meripo, or /THF to provide more hate control.

Personally I turn down NA parties consistently

and

To know when im asked to come /XXX its for an acctual reason not because someone saw on the internet that its how the job has to be played.

Tells me exactly the kind of player you are and how little real experience in the game you have.

Rdm/thf for SATA+WS and JP only, oh dear.

[IfritnoItazura]

Speaking of level gap does anyone notice the gap is shortening
Nope. It's about the same as always: bigger gaps tolerated when very few people are seeking, smaller gaps results when there are quite a few.

Perhaps you should trust your power of observation a little less. :P
DO a little research first ? ive spent 25+ hours doing research on this. [ ...]

AGI = WIND, FACT
Frost lowers a <t>'s AGI

AGI lowers natural delay
:biggrin:

* * *

Don't feel too bad; at least Glued still beats you when it comes to misusing the power of observation, with gems like:
Oh i forgot another role RDM played in the day, RDM/THF was used widely for pulling and SATA when thf's were not available.
I broke out in a chuckle just thinking about some RDM telling the party: "No sweat! Go crazy with WS's after I SATA Fast Blade on the tank!"

[Messia]

A very good and useful guide, thank you :)