RDM/DNC in Colbri Meripo

[MrMageo]

Originally posted in Topic Refresh 2, message #225 on PG. 15

Moving because it has been burried under flames for several pages


/DNC offers the following

Drain Samba I, II - essentialy an endrain effect that replenishes HP
Aspir Samba I - like drain samba but for MP
Cure Waltz I,II- I = Cure II, II= Cure III
Divine Waltz- Curaga
Healing Waltz- Erase
Quick Step- Evade Down
Box Step- Def Down
Desperate Flourish- Inaccurate Gravity

Evaision Boost
Subtle Blow
Resist Slow
Acc Boost

Most people know these by now but i figure i would list them to avoid confusion.

Hypothesis: RDM/DNC can preform in a meripo as well as RDM/WHM
Test: A 3 month period of systematic tests, alterations 1 Hour Minimum Party
Location: Nyzul Isle Camp
Target: Colbri

Trial 1 December 12th-17th 2007

This first test was my first attempt at this combo. I solod in Kuftal for about and hour geting comfortable with macros and job abilities.

Plan: To use TP moves to cure the party while i enfeeble and support party

My original plan was to rely solely on TP for curing and status ailments, this however proved difficult with a lack of TP. Causing me to use MP. Thus i just returned to the back line.

Equipment
Mage stuff hiting 60-65% uncapped dagger, no Joyuese

Resault: Fail was not pleased with my performance and discredited the job.

Trial 2 January 22-29th 2008

The second attempt i now had about +20 in ACC and a capped dagger skill also brough sushi along

The Plan:

To use TP as a main cure for the party, allowing for conservation of MP for enfeebles and support.

I planned to use TP again as my same source of curring power, fared a little better this time around, could not maintain TP for a long chain, used too much MP moved to the back line.

Equitment
Main slots mage gear, accessories, Life belt, 2x woodsman +20 ACC
Squid Sushi, BRD songs took ballad Hit roughly 70-75%

Resault: Fail

Again i was disapointed in the job combo and shelved it. I was unable to support a party from the front line using only TP.

Trial 3

February 21-29th

I recently chose to pull this job back out and give it a whirl again. This endevour would be the most extensive and expensive

february 28th 2008

Group: RDM/DNC,BRD/NIN,SAM/NIN,SAM/NIN,WAR/NIN,WAR/NIN
i chose to haste the 2 war's and myself. the party agreed the faster sams would cause more curing.

The Plan: After reading about a wish list ability on the internet i got an idea of how to do this job. I was going about it the wrong way

I made my way out to the camp again, this time with a new practice in mind. Use MP while getting TP and use TP to replenish MP.

my plan for this would be to get TP to a relativly sustainable level. From soloing i found that 200+ TP is more than efficent. I also plannd on how i would get my MP back and what would be a comfortable amount. I settled on a "0" Base of MP of 400, if i spent my pool to below 400 i would shelv this job forever. I also set a base for safely returning to use my MP of 650 (250 off my cap). Once My MP reached this point i knew i would be safe regardless. I also set TP bars if i reach 200TP i will begin using TP, if i use it down to 100TP i will weapon skill and restart the proccess.

so essentially
BASE MP with equip 904

MP support to 400MP/ or 200TP which ever occurd first.
TP support to 100TP/ or 650MP which ever occurd first.
Once second instance has been met WS the mob.

I also made new macros

Cure <p2>
Haste <p3>
Refresh <me>
Curing Waltz <p4>

are just some examples.

I now felt prepared enough to battle

Equipment:
RDM AF Joyuese (Cap Sword) Life belt, 2x Woodsman Rings, Wivre Gorget, Amemet Mantle +1, 2x accurate earring + Food
I now hit 75-80% and 80% consistently sometimes more with a BRD madrigal

I noticed a much faster TP gain rate then before and made it too 200TP in 3 mobs my MP was only at 520 after 9x haste 3x refresh 6x cure 3 and 3x dia

haste 9x40 = 360
refrsh 3x40 = 120
cure3 6x44 = 264
dia2 3x30 = 90
total spent = 834

150mp x 3 = 450 recoverd

904-834 + 450 = 520

Withing the limit i set for myself

The next few fights went by fairly smooth by cutting the cures out of the equation and enfeebling the mob with box step i saved myself 354 MP over the next 3 fights alone.

As for TP expenditure i spent

3x box step 30% TP
3x cure waltz2 105% TP
2x divine waltz 70% TP
2x aspir samba 20% TP

for a total of 225% TP
seeing as i began with 200% TP over three fights i accumulated just as much over the next 3 if not more due to less spell casting. For sake of arguement we will say i gained 200%

200(start)+200(total over next 3 fights) = 400% tp - 225% = 175%

The Mp refresh for this job is now increased due to less spending

over the course of these three fights i spent 480 for 9x haste and refresh with 450 being returned for a 30 loss, oh but i forgot aspir samba. to get 200tp that would require 12 hits with my sword. On average i get about 4-7 MP hit

so 12x4-7 = 48-84

450 + 48-84 = 498-534 - 480 = 18-54 MP added back to my total

520+18-54 - 538-574 = free casting of haste/refresh for duration of "TP Mode"

so with 175% TP i can last 9 fights solely based off TP curing and enfeebling

bringing my total MP to

520 + (18x3-54x3) = 574 - 682

at which point i would Weapon skill my remaining 100% TP and start again.

Now factoring in Refresh and haste over those 9 mobs

27xhaste 40x27
9x refresh 9x40
MP cost 1440

9x150 = 1350

1440-1350 = 90

520 - 90 = 430

430=(18x3~54x3) 484-572

Converting every 18-21 mobs instead of every 9-12

Resault: Pass

I was satisfied with this test and have since altered it.

I no longer cast 3x dia 2 for the first 3 battles, allowing me to get to the 200% threshold earlier and spending less MP

This is my testing compiled over seperate weeks in many different parties, i have plenty of information compiled but for the sake of space and time i condensed it into this.

Acctual TP% earned while Using /dnc abilities is acctually closer to 220-230 (per3 fights) depending on each paticular mob. Sometimes i gain TP but i never come out with less than -25%

I hope this shows some insight into the more mechanical side of it for those of you that prefer numbers instead of words.

This short version was post on Pg.13 of same thread

First off analyze the situation who needs refresh who needs haste as these will be the primary spells you are casting. often time you will need to haste 2-3 people and refresh only yourself. Find a haste cycle you are comfortable with and that can get the spells out the quickest.

to be effective in this way you must break rdm/dnc as if it were 2 seperate jobs

step1
- Engage mob with sword or dagger and start building TP
(note if you happen to be with a sam ask if he will donate some tp to you)
- Here you will be using your cure spells to maintain the parties health
- use aspir samba if the mob permits or drain samba
- store up about 200 TP

Step 2
- now start using TP to cure the party and assit it in anyway
- use steps to enfeeble it
- use aspir samba or drain samba depending on situation
- when you have a decent supply of MP bust off your WS and start at step one

some notes to remember

You are not here to deal damage, dont become upset if you hit for low number TP is TP

MP > TP this cant be stressed enough MP is by far more important than TP if you are low on MP step back and rest or convert.

BRD songs, do not bother getting ballad acc and haste songs are much more important to you

Joyeuse or a fast dagger is the best choice

You are not a backline mage keep your staves in your pocket

Haste/Refresh are to be cast when the time permits not imeadietly following drop.
Wait until mob is nearly dead or between a pull to recast them the loss of haste for 10's will not hinder the parties success.

This is the way i merit now, i refused to level whm high enough to get erase for the reason of not being a backline bitch. Instead i now have a frontline erase. Again this job combo is not for everyone it is alot of work and timing knowing when to use MP and not TP. It also dosent hurt to make some SAM friends to help build your TP.

If your interested in the amount of xp/hr i get, well its not too bad between 15-20K usually depending on the DD setup and if its a BRD or COR.


For the record in no way am i making this replace /WHM or even suggesting it. It preforms on Par or slighty above that of /WHM. This is not an excuse to melee, this is to provide Additional support to party at minimal MP expenditure.

[Sabaron]

This is the way i merit now, i refused to level whm high enough to get erase for the reason of not being a backline bitch. Instead i now have a frontline erase. Again this job combo is not for everyone it is alot of work and timing knowing when to use MP and not TP. It also dosent hurt to make some SAM friends to help build your TP.
...
For the record in no way am i making this replace /WHM or even suggesting it. It preforms on Par or slighty above that of /WHM. This is not an excuse to melee, this is to provide Additional support to party at minimal MP expenditure.

This data, though more useful than other results posted in the past still fails to answer several of my questions regarding the combination either specifically on Colibri Camp or with respect to Non-colibri Meripos.

Was the Colibri Camp the only camp you tested it on?

How can you compare it to the performance of /WHM if you don't have /WHM or data from a /WHM?

Have you compared it to /BLU?

More importantly, how are you comparing it to /WHM? You've said it's better but you haven't said how.

15-20kph would probably be considered "average" for a TP Burn. You would have to be breaking at least 20kph to be considered "good".

[MrMageo]

Was the Colibri Camp the only camp you tested it on?

Yes this test was only preformed on a colbri camp.

Imp camps wouldnt work with the amount of Silence (forget move name) and Amnesia moves they do. So i took them out of the potential party locations

Mamool camps have not been tested yet i inted to, i may have to change my TP floor to allow for more spell casting and landing enfeebles. Silence may pose a problem as its tough to land even with near cap merits and an auster staff. Personally i dont think it is feesable but i will test to make sure.

How can you compare it to the performance of /WHM if you don't have /WHM or data from a /WHM?

My brother is a 75 RDM/WHM (Taru) and we play side by side, i can collect some data from playing on his charecter. But just from the assumption of Dia + Erase it is all ready less MP efficient than Dia/Quick Step + Healing Waltz. However i will collect some data on it for a comparative analysis.

Have you compared it to /BLU?

I have not compared it to BLU, this test was to be an MP efficent support role, I find when i /BLU for solo or certain occasions i spend more MP then i normally would with its curative spells.


More importantly, how are you comparing it to /WHM? You've said it's better but you haven't said how.

Im talking solely in terms of MP efficentcy vs Convert Timer. As RDM/BLM i tend to last 9-12 Colibri before convert, i see WHM as in a similar area. Depending on how fast or slow a party is killing this may or may not fall into the convert timer. With dancer i last 18-21 Mobs between converts which is ample time for convert recast, In terms of MP expenditure vs convert Timer /DNC is the hands down winner i find.

However if /WHM provided a Regen 2 it may become slightly more MP effeicent than BLM. /SCH does however and i plan to test it as well in a similar setting.


15-20kph would probably be considered "average" for a TP Burn. You would have to be breaking at least 20kph to be considered "good".

I average about 15-20K on my RDM/BLM, and realtively as Much as RDM/30WHM the addition of erase dosent seem like it will boost this to much. (Possible exception is when Colibri reflects Dia to a melee then erase would be more efficent then the eventual cure 3 i would need.)

i have only broken 20K a few times and it was in my static (on hold till may for a tour of duty ; ;) 3x SAM/WAR 1X BRD/COR, 1XBRD/NIN 1X RDM/BLM (me) where we netted 25-30K hr, but in my eyes that is an optimal party set up. Usually found myself meleeing anyhow due to lack of necassaryspell casting as we were killing so fast.


Hope that clears up some of your questions

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

There's a lot of problems here.


No comparisons to /WHM, /BLU /SCH. (OP insists against levelling /WHM)
No comparisons against other camps (lolColibri)
Lots of substandard accuracy gear not to mention two Woodsmans Rings kills Evasion Bonus from /DNC. . Any seasoned melee player will tell you that accuracy is something you should worry about, not crutch on Madrigal or Hunter's Roll from BRD or COR. With an adequate build, sushi should cover the rest. If /DNC is as good as you say, you should be able to favor accuracy food and not mage foods since it helps you land steps.
AF - really, this doesn't help for the given situation, you're not enfeebling and the secondary effects of Dia never get resisted. You really should only need gear for Sleep and that's all. Melee gear would have worked better.
How many steps could you get off per fight? Burn PTs move fast, so DNC main is even at a disadvantage if they don't have time to get steps off.

[Selphiie The Enchantress]

RDM who doesn't have /whm?

RDM is the balanced mage job they need to be ready for ANY situation...

Whether it be /drk for Stun Orders
Whether it be /whm for pesky HNMs/Gods who spam Paralyzga,etc to take some of the pressure off the WHMs
Whether it be /blm for Sleepga and INT and whatever else it can offer
/nin for soloing, /blu for i don't know im not a redmage lol, but seriously...

Sometimes you just have to suck it up and level your subjobs, I hated lvling /nin for PLD, i hate the thought of blink tanking as a blood tanking job, but i have it anyway because i know there are situations where I NEED it.

Anyway back to the OP, 20k is really the average for a burn party, it isnt something really spectacular, not trying to put you down, but if you want some real testing please test it on mobs OTHER than colibri, colibri aren't the only merit mobs in the game you know, and test it yourself with the subjobs you should have leveled, not with your brother who sits next to you because his gear choices could be different, blah blah blah, race, etc.

[MrMageo]

No comparisons to /WHM, /BLU /SCH. (OP insists against levelling /WHM)
No comparisons against other camps (lolColibri)
Lots of substandard accuracy gear not to mention two Woodsmans Rings kills Evasion Bonus from /DNC. . Any seasoned melee player will tell you that accuracy is something you should worry about, not crutch on Madrigal or Hunter's Roll from BRD or COR. With an adequate build, sushi should cover the rest. If /DNC is as good as you say, you should be able to favor accuracy food and not mage foods since it helps you land steps.
AF - really, this doesn't help for the given situation, you're not enfeebling and the secondary effects of Dia never get resisted. You really should only need gear for Sleep and that's all. Melee gear would have worked better.
How many steps could you get off per fight? Burn PTs move fast, so DNC main is even at a disadvantage if they don't have time to get steps off.

I am going to try and answer this as carefully as possible as i dont need another flame war.

Comparison to /WHM, /BLU, /SCH

I have not yet compiled my data from sub SCH or BLUatm so i will leave that out.

/WHM

As far as comparisons go i can speculate factoring in MP cost of erase (the only PT support spell i do not have). Otherwise the remaining core of my /whm sub is there (it is now lvl 32). As for a dircet comparison to it i can punch up number for you adding erase in where i should

Using the same Numbers as i obtained from trial 3. (As i doubt i will find time to get that same party setup for a test.)
Max MP 936

haste 9x40 = 360
refrsh 3x40 = 120
cure3 6x44 = 264
dia2 3x30 = 90
erase 3x18 = 54
total spent = 888

150mp x 3 = 450 recoverd
90mp x2 = 180 recoverd ballad (assumed 1 miss due to pulling etc)

936-888 + 630 = 678

vs

haste 9x40 = 360
refrsh 3x40 = 120
cure3 6x44 = 264
dia2 3x30 = 90
total spent = 834

150mp x 3 = 450 recoverd


904-834 + 450 = 520

At this point i would Switch over to TP mode, and over the next 9 fights i will be accumlating MP

18-54 MP added back to my total per 3 fight set or,

27xhaste 40x27
9x refresh 9x40
MP cost 1440

9x150 = 1350

1440-1350 = 90

520 - 90 = 430

430=(18x3~54x3) 484-572


Now as RDM/WHM i am 3 fights in

with my mp now @ 678 we will use the same equation

haste 9x40 = 360
refrsh 3x40 = 120
cure3 6x44 = 264
dia2 3x30 = 90
erase 3x18 = 54
total spent = 888

678-888= -210

-210 + 630 = 420

and again for the next set of 3 fights

420 MP now

haste 9x40 = 360
refrsh 3x40 = 120
cure3 6x44 = 264
dia2 3x30 = 90
erase 3x18 = 54
total spent = 888

420-888 = -468

-468 + 630 = 162

and now i am in a convert range between battles 9-12

Mean while after 9 battles i am sitting at

430(18x3-54x3) 484-592 we will say 484 for the sake of arguements

484 MP enough to last me 3 fights while i build TP and start the process over.

haste 9x40 = 360
refrsh 3x40 = 120
cure3 6x44 = 264
dia2 3x30 = 90
total spent = 834

150mp x 3 = 450 recoverd

484-834 = 100

27xhaste 40x27
9x refresh 9x40
MP cost 1440

9x150 = 1350

100-90 = 10 MP

now i gain MP again

10-(18x3-54x3)= 64-172 MP

I have now fought for 18 Battle battles and am ready to convert between battles 18-21.

or roughly 2x longer than a RDM/WHM

Evaison Stat/ACC

Yes the woodsman rings negate the Bonus but dont eat into my natural Evade which is hurting to begin with. Basically it is a free 10 ACC

ACC FOOD > Then mage food

Correct i think its in there that i eat sushi

AF

I use AF to gain MP lost after losing a mage Sub, currently working to get a SH to rep the body after initial casting and convert. As for Hands and feet i am looking for other possibilites. As well as WT for head no complete melee set as of ye but as it is completed i imagine i will only better myself.

Steps

3X Box step means 3x- i use 1 step per fight much as you would dia and they land quite regularily missing only occasionally. If it is a miss there is no reason to recast as 10's is a long time in a bird brawl.

I think thats everything you asked about.

[IfritnoItazura]

There's a lot of problems here.

[ ...]
No comparisons against other camps (lolColibri)
Why would that be a problem? The title says it's limited to meriting Colibri. There's no reason to drag any issue other than Colibri into this.

If a speaker at a science conference gives a talk on optimizing electron scanning microscope, you probably would not shout at him "What about the good old 100x optical microscope used in elementary school!?"

You mean well, but there's no harm in talking about one very specific aspect of RDM on its own term.


There's a lot of problems here.

Lots of substandard accuracy gear not to mention two Woodsmans Rings kills Evasion Bonus from /DNC.
Isn't it already established that the OP doesn't WS much, and uses TP for dances mostly? He wouldn't find any use for the Evasion Bonus. Lack of more accuracy gear is a bit of concern, though.



AF - really, this doesn't help for the given situation, you're not enfeebling and the secondary effects of Dia never get resisted. You really should only need gear for Sleep and that's all. Melee gear would have worked better.
Agree on this. I've melee'ed on Greater Colibri before with slightly more accuracy in gear; the report 75-80% accuracy on those gear is likely exaggerated. (And, Madrigal for a WS spam party is a bit silly.)

[MrMageo]

Agree on this. I've melee'ed on Greater Colibri before with slightly more accuracy in gear; the report 75-80% accuracy on those gear is likely exaggerated. (And, Madrigal for a WS spam party is a bit silly.)

Ya i imagine it is this is just me from tick hits and misses per fight on a paper (dont use a parse) Its acctually mor in the ballpark of 70-75%, but ACC aside the numbers dont lie i still make my TP limit.

Right now colbri con IT high def. it used to read IT High eva and defense

Somecalcutaions i read about acc on wiki say that a mob whose evade is not posted as high or low yet cons IT means you have a 75% chance of hiting it.

So its not all bad, my numbers may be a bit skewed but i still get my TP and thats what matters to the job combo.

[Sabaron]

I'm certainly not trying to start another fiery thread like the last one. To be fair though, the last one started cooking because the people espousing /DNC were suggesting that it be the new God of All Subs that will rescue RDM from the backline from 0-75 making them the new King Of Melee, and that seriously had to be stopped since (with very few exceptions) there was almost no good evidence.

I'll be content to wait for more information, because I'm not terribly interested in Colibri camps since you can put almost anything in the mix with them and work it like Dual-wield WHM/NINs. I will say that your results are interesting, but I don't think I'd put much hope out for Trolls (there are just too many instances where you'll be hitting for 0 while they're wailing on you). Tandjana and MJSP Mook-onry I can see as a possibility, but I'm leaning toward no on MJSP (Mook/Puk/Skoffin). Imps are obviously out of the question.

[MrMageo]

I'm certainly not trying to start another fiery thread like the last one. To be fair though, the last one started cooking because the people espousing /DNC were suggesting that it be the new God of All Subs that will rescue RDM from the backline from 0-75 making them the new King Of Melee, and that seriously had to be stopped since (with very few exceptions) there was almost no good evidence.


I agree it is not a be all end all king melee subjob. Infact i dont consider it melee what so ever (outside the fact i am hitting a <t>). It is designed to be a support role that happens to be on the front line. People will try and put the spin that it is my excuse to lolrdm melee, which is how that other topic got blown apart. As for the evidence part i gave up on it after about the 2nd page of flames which is why i opened a dedicated thread to it. For people that show some intrest to the combonation and for me to share more information with them. Thank you by the way i like doing tests and such and appreciate you asking me to find things out i dont have answers to. I acctually spent the first 2 months of wotg calculating the EXP/AN ratio i now have 245K AN and about 20 merits give or take a few 100AN because of this, also one medal away from acheiving top rank ^^.


I'll be content to wait for more information, because I'm not terribly interested in Colibri camps since you can put almost anything in the mix with them and work it like Dual-wield WHM/NINs. I will say that your results are interesting, but I don't think I'd put much hope out for Trolls (there are just too many instances where you'll be hitting for 0 while they're wailing on you). Tandjana and MJSP Mook-onry I can see as a possibility, but I'm leaning toward no on MJSP (Mook/Puk/Skoffin). Imps are obviously out of the question.


I hope to test some of these myself, if i can ever get a party to consider it (many people ae bent on there skill less colbri parties). Hopefully SE's update will make camps like trolls and cop areas Bibiki bay comes to mid or the tavanzian region, more appealing to party in. Until then it will be hard to test camps outside of colbri with the exception of Mamool Ja's and maybe Wivre. Imps are out of the question 100% first off i hate IMP parties so i wouldnt test on them nd secondly amnesia renders my /dnc useless.

Keep the post comming Sab i will try and get some parties on mamools this week and see how that goes. Also maybe ill try and get a traditional party setup together and hit up some harder xp mobs like trolls/wivre and see how t works out side of a tpburn system.

[Icemage]

Hang on a sec, some of these numbers make no sense.

- 9 Hastes on 3 targets in 3 mobs? Seriously? I've never been in a merit party that was functional that took 150+ seconds to kill a mob (duration of Refresh). They're lucky if they last 30 seconds, actually. Either your kill speed was very slow, or you were recasting far too early.

- If the above isn't wrong, then how were you hitting 200 TP on 3 mobs? Joyeuse returns 6.0 TP per hit with 224 delay, so that's 34 hits. Joyeuse has 45% double attack, and Haste gives you +15% speed, so you get an attack on average every 2.19 seconds or so.

34 hits / 80% accuracy = about 42 attack attempts, which should take around 93 seconds of active engagement (probably somewhat more, as I think double attack adds some delay to your attacks). Even with spellcasting in between eating up some of your time, you had way more than that available if the only spells you were casting were the ones listed.

A better indicator here would be the 66TP returned per mob. That's 11 hits.

11 / 80% accuracy x 2.19 seconds per attack = ~30 seconds spent actually attacking each enemy. Still really high considering time taken out to cast spells and use steps, but certainly more plausible.

- How do you get Ballads when you're meleeing?

I've no doubt that RDM/DNC is viable in Colibri camps, but if you're going to do some rigorous testing... make sure your data is collected properly....


Icemage

[MrMageo]

I will get back to you in a couple days once i punch up a post in Notepad. (Gotta convert numbers from paper to comp ; ;.)

As for that Ballad thing on there i got number punchy and wasnt really paying to much attention (just kept carrying numbers around and assumed i had ballad being so used to it). Only time i really get time to post is either at work (where i dont have my numbers) Or from home at 3am.

Also to note on the time of our kills was the usual 30-45's
couldnt judge the exact time of our kill ratio but i got about 10-13 Landed in per colibri. (Again speculation Numbers are at home) but it was in the ball park of 60-70 TP per mob in melee IIRC.

Anywho ill get back to ya and pull out my number book and start punching it up 100% accurate from my collection. Maye should save typing this crap out for the days off so im not brain dead or half asleep (common thursday) Now im rambling (god i hate working night shifts.) Bye for now
______________________________
Also Id like to say Thanks so much for your intrest in this, i am going to unleash the rest of my test numbers by this weekend. I was hesitant to pour to much effort into punching up my information after what hapened in that last thread. so By saturday or sunday i hope to have the Numbers cleared up, the /whm thing cleared up. (I also found my old numbers from /BLU mind you its not valid i was only lvl 70 at the time of testing.)

Any how double post ftw i <3 auto merge
Time to head home and get some sleep.
______________________________
Ok I got this up a lot sooner then I excepted found a really nice stat conversion tool for ACC DELAY for 100% accuracy. found here FFXI Calculator (http://www.forsakenhearts.net/ffxicalc/)

please note the red text indicates BRD in party, as I will also include ACC/Delay without it.


Magic Spell Recast

I went a little overboard with my recasts placing them where I did. according to my records I only cast haste 6 times per 3 mobs and Refresh 2x (don’t know why that is considering, I imagine to show I could do my job on the front lines)

Haste Recast :15s (with haste/fast cast) Duration 3 minutes
Refresh Recast: 13s (haste/fast cast) Duration 2:24




ACC

Skipping equations and such as I let the computer do it.

Gear +29 ACC , Life belt (10), woodsmanx2 (10), wivre gorget (5), accurate earring x2 (4),
Squid Sushi (15%), Sword Cap (250), BRD Blade Madrigal (27/29),
Warlock Gloves (DEX +4), ACC Bonus Trait (10) (DEX 65)

Target LVL 82 Greater Colibri

Evasion 327 + 20 (passive family trait) = 347

ACC= 398.575 (floor to 398)
HIT RATE = 86.7%

ACC= 368.575 (floor to 368)
HIT RATE= 71.7%

Delay

Haste (15%) March II (10%) *Unsure about exact haste this has, wiki says 11?*


Weapon: Joyeuse Delay: 224 Attacks 2x (45%) 6% TP /hit

170.185, 2.8/s

191.185, 3.2/s

TP/GAIN RATE (Pre Spell Casting)

*Note Joyeuse 2nd attack does not add time 2nd hit post immediately following animation lags behind. Timed this today in campaign just to be sure Still swung 3 seconds following Double Attack*

30~45's MOB DEATHS

(30/2.8)x1.45 = 15.5
(45/2.8)x1.45 = 23.3

Successful Hits

86.7*0.155 = 13.4 (13)
86.7*0.233 = 20.2 (20)

13 x 6 = 78
20 x 6 = 120

Now With Spell Casts
Dia(.5s?),Cure 3(2s), Haste(2.5s), Refresh(4s)

seconds of spell casting (Personally I am very good at hitting between the attacks)
So assuming I buff my self and 1 other with haste and myself with refresh pre fight I will subtract 3 of those from the overall castings as well as 1 dia.

I will now go to a 3 fight set as my original post describes for this using the casting data I have

4x haste (1 second over run of delay per cast 4 total)
3x cure 3 (0 second over run of delay)
2x Dia (0 second over run of delay)
1x refresh (1 second over run of delay per cast 1 total)
3x Healing Waltz (erase dia instant no delay interference)


85/2.8*1.45= 44 x 6 = 264- 60% = 204%
130/2.8*1.45 =67 x 6 = 402- 60% = 262%


(My written records have me Changing over @ 234% TP so we were on the slower side of things)








(30/3.2)x1.45 = 13
(45/3.2)x1.45 = 20

Successful Hits

71.7*0.130 = 9 x 6 = 54
71.7*0.200 = 14x 6 = 84

With Spells and 3 Mobs

85/3.2*1.45 = 38 x 6 = 228- 60 = 168
130/3.2*1.45 = 58 x 6 = 348-60 = 288

My TP record Has me finishing with 206 TP


Well I hope this explains MY TP calculations in better detail

I will work more on the MP side of things when I get the chance until then please enjoy.

[Icemage]

Joyeuse is 224 delay.

Haste spell is 15%.
Victory March with a Faerie Piccolo is 11%.
Net Haste: 26%

Attack cycle: 2.76 seconds (not counting double attack).
Figure in 45% double attack proc for Joyeuse = ~1.90 seconds per attack attempt, average.

I've never seen a Bard use Madrigal + March in a Colibri camp, incidentally, unless there's a second Bard present for double Minuets. Colibri aren't "that" hard to hit, so Minuet IV usually does more (and would explain the long kill times).

As such, the assumption is that they're using Minuet + March more likely than not, so we go with the lower of the two accuracy figures (71.7%).

6TP per hit x 71.7% accuracy x 1.90s per attack = average TP gain of 1.887 TP per second when not casting.

With each enemy engaged for 30-45 seconds, assuming you do your Refresh cycle once per 3 enemies (reasonable), and are targetting two other people with Haste (subpar but is "OK") - you lose:

Dia II: 1.5s
Cure III: 2.5s
Haste: 3.0s (roughly 1 cast per enemy on average)
Lose about 1 second per enemy to cast Refresh on yourself.

(above reduced for Fast Cast by 20%), so net less of about 6.4 seconds per enemy.

I'm pretty sure you lose the animation lag time when performing dances, like most JAs, so probably ~1s per usage for a Step and a Waltz. Net time loss probably somewhere around 10 seconds per enemy due to attack cycle interruptions and late engagements due to spellcasting.

If we say enemies die within an average of, oh, 38 seconds, that gives you 28 seconds of "engaged" time on each enemy, average, with an average TP gain of perhaps ~53TP per enemy. Enough to pay for a QuickStep and a Curing Waltz II.

Heaven knows how you handle casting Protect IV on people, though. That's 5 targets (not counting yourself) times 65MP every 30 minutes. You could downgrade to Protect II or III and cut the cost a bit, though I wouldn't recommend it.

Assuming you have Signet Refresh active, you're probably still bleeding off about 100-150MP per Refresh cycle from casting non-Cure spells. That cuts your MP supply pretty darn close, since there's about 4 Refresh cycles per Convert cycle, depending on your timing and how many Convert merits you have.

It's viable in this context, but is it really any more efficient than RDM/WHM? Moreover, is it even a noticeable improvement for the extra effort involved? I've gotten chain #200+ on RDM/WHM at the middle Greater Colibri camp, so it's certainly not necessary.


Icemage

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

The fact that its only getting him 15-20k an hour pretty much says "Fun, viable way to settle for less EXP per hour." I'd suggest only doing /DNC in setups that warrant it, not forcing it on PTs as an experiment because you don't have a /WHM subjob and refuse to level one.

COR/RNG, BRD/NIN and RDM/WHM running on all cylinders with almost any melee setup would get you better EXP per hour and asking for Madrigal/Hunter's Roll only slows things down. And you have some really poor melee on your hands in they need accuracy buffs so badly at 75 against VT colibri, tell them to go farm for proper gear instead of merriting. Minuet/Chaos, Samurai Roll/Fighter's Roll/Rouge's Roll and also March songs would all be better than wasting time with Madrigal/Hunter's Roll.

Its like I've told melees since my days as a BRD in the 50+ world - accuracy is YOUR problem, just because I have a buff for it doesn't mean I'm your crutch for it.

[Icemage]

The fact that its only getting him 15-20k an hour pretty much says "Fun, viable way to settle for less EXP per hour." I'd suggest only doing /DNC in setups that warrant it, not forcing it on PTs as an experiment because you don't have a /WHM subjob and refuse to level one.

COR/RNG, BRD/NIN and RDM/WHM running on all cylinders with almost any melee setup would get you better EXP per hour and asking for Madrigal/Hunter's Roll only slows things down. And you have some really poor melee on your hands in they need accuracy buffs so badly at 75 against VT colibri, tell them to go farm for proper gear instead of merriting. Minuet/Chaos, Samurai Roll/Fighter's Roll/Rouge's Roll and also March songs would all be better than wasting time with Madrigal/Hunter's Roll.

Its like I've told melees since my days as a BRD in the 50+ world - accuracy is YOUR problem, just because I have a buff for it doesn't mean I'm your crutch for it.
Just out of curiosity, BBQ, have you tried using Corsair's Roll in a Colibri camp? That's one of the places where I really think it would pay off.

The main impediment I've found at that specific camp is that you usually run out of Colibri to kill at some point, which sometimes forces a long pull and breaks a chain. Most of the linkshell parties I take to that camp end up having to be very careful with just how fast we kill them, otherwise we literally have nothing in range to attack to hold a chain open. With Corsair's Roll, you don't kill quite as fast, but you get more XP, and I don't see that being a bad thing in this instance (it's not like you lose a chain because you failed to kill them fast enough).


Icemage

[MrMageo]

I just let the number cruncher do its thing and those are the numbers that came out of it which arent too far off from my own TP rates i sit right n the middle of it so id say its pretty close to as accurate as it gets.

The overall out come of this test wasnt to try and say RDM/DNC is greater then RDM/WHM its to show it can preform as effectively or on par with a /WHM in the given situation.

When i crunch the Numbers for MP consumtion over the Next few days it will be more evident then just the TP gain rate Table. The Number crunching devise i use states with both March Songs astive and haste Joyeuse new dealay comes to

149.187(or 1 hit 2.5/s) and using your 38s kill time (which is accurate considering my TP landed in the middle of 30-45s mobs)

38/2.5*1.45 = 22
71.7*0.22 = 15 x 6 = 90TP
(Assuming i wasnt casting anything since i was ill take off my time for both MP/TP spells)
MP-5seconds
33/2.5*1.45= 19
71.7*0.19 = 13 x 6 = 78 or 234 - 60 = 174

as for the dances, they work opposite spell casting in terms of squeezing them into the fight. Since the are instant you can cast as you are swinging and still land hits and abilities.

All the above spells i use take about 3'2 per annimation

so I used

1 Samba (3s-2.5 = .5)
1 Cure Waltz (3-2.5 .5)
1 Step (3-2.5=.5)
6 haste (3-2.5 = .5)
2 refresh (4s-2.5 = 1.5)

0.5*9 + 1.5 = 6

So assuming i hit them between every swing (as i mentiond before i have honed my skills very well Soloing can do that to you) i lose only 6 seconds of attack time over the coure of one fight.

32/2.5*1.45 = 18
71.7*0.18 = 12 x 6 = 72 or 216 over 3 fights

Tp Cost per fight

1 Sama 10
1 Cure 35
1 Heal 20
1 step 10

75 TP spent per fight.

which is -3 TP per fight

174 TP + 72 = 246- 75 = 171
171 TP
168 TP
165 TP
162 TP
169
156
153
150
147
144
141

Here are my tp lvls for the 9 fights i went through according to this, my numbers are as follows (Tallied at start of every fight)

234
221
225
210
222
187
181
142
155

So i came out pretty close to what the above is slightly ahead as i was landing more hits.(madrigal)

Essentially i am not repsonsible for what songs a BRD plays to a group, he must use his discression to what the party needs. After leveling anoher support job i find telling BRD/RDM/COR what to cast and when to be hypocritical of me as I dont like when its done to me. In his mind he saw we needed ACC + Haste not just Hastex2. At 75 I think he knows what he is doing in the given situation.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Just out of curiosity, BBQ, have you tried using Corsair's Roll in a Colibri camp? That's one of the places where I really think it would pay off.

The main impediment I've found at that specific camp is that you usually run out of Colibri to kill at some point, which sometimes forces a long pull and breaks a chain. Most of the linkshell parties I take to that camp end up having to be very careful with just how fast we kill them, otherwise we literally have nothing in range to attack to hold a chain open. With Corsair's Roll, you don't kill quite as fast, but you get more XP, and I don't see that being a bad thing in this instance (it's not like you lose a chain because you failed to kill them fast enough).


Icemage

My personal policy is if we have a BRD pulling, that means I can /RNG or /WAR and I'll be rolling Corsair's Roll. If no BRD, that probably means I'm pulling, subbing /NIN and Corsair's Roll is going to be harder to eyeball landing on all members and if I missed, they'll cry about not getting it like they cried about not getting it at other levels, so I tend to favor a usual four buff cycle when I'm pulling.

So its BRD puller or no Corsair's Roll on TP burn, but for manaburn - since people always send thier BLMs out to die and refuse to EXP with them, I'll always roll it since the MAB roll is somewhat meaningless against puddings and wamoura.

I guess you could say I see it the same way with meritting with a PLDs and WHMs in PT, I'll consider it since they also tend not to get the merit PTs so quickly. Someone died and we can still keep pulling? I'll roll it to make up the difference. Sea/Sky Farming? I'll roll it. I see Corsair's Roll as something of a courtesy toward others and reward for an optimal setup rather than an excuse to gain more EXP in places I could already get it quickly.

[IfritnoItazura]

Off topic, but:
for manaburn - since people always send thier BLMs out to die and refuse to EXP with them, I'll always roll it since the MAB roll is somewhat meaningless against puddings and wamoura.
I feel less slightly sympathy for BLM75's regarding the exp situations as of today. :biggrin:

Did a RDM + BLM duo on puddings last night; easy chain#5's with me practically leeching on RDM (only 1/3rd to 1/4th of the total damage from me). Any decent BLM can recap exp easily.

It was a real eye opener. My BLM friend also told me that BLMx4 + BRD group he had at the same camp was getting 25k/hour. Beats Colibri...

* * *

I can't seem to focus on the raw data presented; too hard to read all that minimally organized numbers. :wasted:

I'll just say the attempt to prove RDM/DNC is somehow better for exp/hour than RDM/WHM for Greater Colibri camp is a lost cause. I've seen chain#110 on RDM/WHM personally, Icemage had chain#200+, and I'm sure other people have seen similar numbers. RDM/WHM is more than good enough; it's up to the other party members to push the exp/hour up if you're already doing your job on RDM/WHM.

The question comes down to is whether RDM/DNC is also "good enough", and whether it's fun. The answer to the first part is likely "Yes, with the right gear", and the second part is "Depending on your taste."

Other than that, it's about whether some party configuration can benefit slightly more from a RDM using /DNC instead of /WHM.

* * *

When I say "up to other party members to push the exp/hour", I don't mean just the BRD or COR.

Sorry to burst some ballooning egos, but if the DDs are incompetent, no amount of boosting from BRD or COR can get a party to 20k/hour. Heck, even Refresh + Ballad x2 won't be enough MP for cures to keep the chain going if the DDs aren't bouncing the critters well. (And, if someone keeps pulling when MP is critically low anyway, death will happen, which totally kills exp/hour.)

It really is a team effort to get 20k/hr, even if some don't think much of Greater Colibris.

[MrMageo]

Ive also had high chains i think my personal High is #187 and that was RDM/BLM
I think this job is capable of high chains as well. In those high chain parties
you have 2BRD's pr 1COR/1BRD or an extremely good BRD. (Personally my highest cins include 2x BRD myself and 3 WAR/NIN.) In which case assuming you have 2 BRDS you will be getting 2x march, 1x Madrgial and probly ATK+. which would increase the melee preformance of rdm/dnc all the more. But thats just further speculation until i get 25-30K/hr party setups ill sit happily knowing i can enjoy doing my job while not causing a exp drag.

Like you said RDM/DNC (with right Gear) can work
And it is all player preference. I am sick of mashing macros from the back line so i have pionered a way to make RDM effective on the front line if they wish.

[Celeal]

To OP:

It is a long thread, maybe I would miss something...

Somewhere in the post you mentioned Aspir Samba (I) during the testing... I am wondering is it more effective to use Drain Samba II, since it more party members (frontline melee): Aspir Samba I -> only MP-melee get benefit; Drain Samba I/II -> applies to all fronline melee. Drain Samba II's amount of Drain is higher the cap for Aspir Samba I, for weapons with the same delay.

[MrMageo]

It could be more effective, I used it so i could refresh my MP at decent rate since i was missing Ballad. Also the wars were enjoying with those axes they have that suck MP.

[IfritnoItazura]

Ive also had high chains i think my personal High is #187 and that was RDM/BLM
Which is pretty much another indirect evidence that /DNC won't necessarily be much more helpful; just about anything can work for RDM. :P


But thats just further speculation until i get 25-30K/hr party setups ill sit happily knowing i can enjoy doing my job while not causing a exp drag.
Probably can't really get that much on Greater Colibri, due to repop rate. >_>; Maybe a RDM/COR using Corsair Roll can get closer?

I am sick of mashing macros from the back line so i have pionered a way to make RDM effective on the front line if they wish.
Instead of macro mashing from the back, do it from the front. OK. ._.

[MrMageo]

Instead of macro mashing from the back, do it from the front. OK. ._.

Ya its not the whole thing about macro mashing. Its standing in one spot macro mashing and the mind numbing that goes with it. At least /DNC i dont feel like im injecting Novacane into my brain every few minutes. Its something new which makes it something enjoyable, to me a least.