New SCH stratagem idea!

[Saphiera]

Ok I have noticed that SCH grabs A LOT! of hate, not only b/c of cures but SCH can also nuke during battle which grabs hate itself. I have noticed that without stoneskin and blink it has been hard for me to take the hits especially if everyone is in red hp and I use Accession + Cure III to save our butts but there isnt a nearby zone for me to erase my hate. So here is what I thought of. I would like to see SE give SCH the abilitie to erase one target party member's hate, make it a stratagem so you can only use it every 4 minutes, but if this where possible it sure as heck would save my butt from dying all the time due to no protect spells T-T

[Balfree]

SCH can't possibly grab more hate than a WHM or a BLM.

Just go easy on those big spells...

[Tsrwedge]

I didn't have a single problem with grabbing too much enmity on a consistent basis in any party I've been in with SCH. Usually one or two "whoa, that's too much!" moments to establish where the line was with a particular tank was all. If you're having trouble with grabbing too much hate, nuke a little less and remember to keep Regens up, especially on the tank. I also like to avoid Cure 4 if at all possible because of the large amount of enmity it generates.

[Saren]

Also didn't have problems grabbing hate on sch, even though I was nuking comparably with blms of the same level and doing more of the healing duties.

No offense in tended but the idea seems a bit random and not really inkeeping with the job. All the Strategms the job has so far are self targeted modifiers on spells so an enmity erasing ability doesn't really fit in with that.

Also what you are suggesting might be on a longer timer than TA but it's more powerful and over a short term much more flexible than the hate management abilities thf gets which wouldn't be right.

[Ziero]

Maybe instead make it so the next spell cast has lower enimity?

That seems to fit more with how Sch does things, as in their abilities boost spell casting rather then have direct effects of their own.

And seriously though, Whm and Blms would be able to pull more hate normally. If you had to rely on Blink+SS (which Blm doesn't get either) while you lvled then either your doing something wrong or all your tanks sucked.

[IfritnoItazura]

So here is what I thought of. I would like to see SE give SCH the abilitie to erase one target party member's hate, make it a stratagem so you can only use it every 4 minutes, but if this where possible it sure as heck would save my butt from dying all the time due to no protect spells T-T
The ability to change other people's enmity is mostly THF's territory. They have so little place in the community now, so please have pity on them and don't further encroach on their turf. :o

Besides, the idea of a Stratagem is to alter a spell's behavior, not create an entirely new effect out of the blue. Would be nice to stick with the theme instead of a non sequitur like enmity modification on party members. (What you're asking for is more like a new spell or an unrelated JA than a new Stratagem.)

Ok I have noticed that SCH grabs A LOT! of hate, not only b/c of cures but SCH can also nuke during battle which grabs hate itself. I have noticed that without stoneskin and blink it has been hard for me to take the hits especially if everyone is in red hp and I use + Cure III to save our butts but there isnt a nearby zone for me to erase my hate.
Oh, I don't know. I've been beaten up badly on SCH before, but that's mostly due to bad tanks. There are tank players so bad, that a Dia could get your face eaten for your trouble.

If some BLMs have survived those mythic Skillcahin + Magic Burst parties where their first spell of the fight is an MB'ed ancient magic for 1000+ damage, I think most SCH will be alright.

You can always attempt an Accession + Regen II before things get too horrible.

* * *

There is a slight possibility that I sometimes over-nuked a tad on SCH intentionally, to make use of the spell Drain (which is more MP efficient than nukes or cures, IMO). Not that I'd ever admit to it, but the possibility is there. >_>

[Tsrwedge]

There is a slight possibility that I sometimes over-nuked a tad on SCH intentionally, to make use of the spell Drain (which is more MP efficient than nukes or cures, IMO). Not that I'd ever admit to it, but the possibility is there. >_>

Drain does have a strange way of putting a grin on one's face, doesn't it? ;)

[Pteryx]

I have to agree with others here that a hate reset ability would be too powerful and un-Strategem-like. Strategems are basically metamagic abilities, so a Strategem pair that halves the Enmity generated by the next white/black spell you cast (which I've thought of before) would be more appropriate -- and for that matter, would help solve your problem if intelligently applied. I'd also want it to be subbable; it'd certainly put a dent in BLM/SCH's vulnerability problem... -- Pteryx

[Armando]

There is a slight possibility that I sometimes over-nuked a tad on SCH intentionally, to make use of the spell Drain (which is more MP efficient than nukes or cures, IMO). Not that I'd ever admit to it, but the possibility is there. >_>Not to be rude, but it's pointless to damage yourself just to use Drain since Drain will damage the mob indepedently from the amount of HP you recover. As a matter of fact, you'll barely generate any hate at all if you have full HP regardless of how much damage the Drain did, so it's actually advantageous to have full HP in some situations. Makes for a fun Chainspell trick.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

So far, I've only noticed huge hate spikes for SCH when a fight starts and you use something like Accession to drop a Regen II, Blink or Stoneskin. I usually wait mid-fight to pull the AoE Regen IIs out now or AoE -na spells. I save Accession AoE Cures and support spells for after fights, provided I'm using /WHM for Curagas at all.

[Lmnop]

Not to be rude, but it's pointless to damage yourself just to use Drain since Drain will damage the mob indepedently from the amount of HP you recover. As a matter of fact, you'll barely generate any hate at all if you have full HP regardless of how much damage the Drain did, so it's actually advantageous to have full HP in some situations. Makes for a fun Chainspell trick.

But you're only getting the effect of half the spell. Plus, there's no denying that we'd all like to know just how much good we're doing. I know what you're saying, though. What's the point in getting healed if you could avoid getting hit in the 1st place? But the action of overstepping the line means you're probably upping your damage done, anyway. However, it'd be awesome if BLMs who knew they were crossing the hate threshold would work their way up to the melee (barring awful AoE mobs like mandies/ ants who you shouldn't be trying this on, anyway) so when it turns and smacks 'em, it doesn't interfere with the works of the front line.

As for the stratagem -- what others have said. A spell that modifies the enmity of next spell cast is much more viable (maybe have the White version lower the enmity of next person cured or buffed? Too THF, still). Also fits very well into the flavor of the job when you consider Their aptitude towards Regens and DoTs.

[Saphiera]

Maybe instead make it so the next spell cast has lower enimity?

That seems to fit more with how Sch does things, as in their abilities boost spell casting rather then have direct effects of their own.

And seriously though, Whm and Blms would be able to pull more hate normally. If you had to rely on Blink+SS (which Blm doesn't get either) while you lvled then either your doing something wrong or all your tanks sucked.

Yeah I agree that seems like a better idea, well chances are the reason I was grabbing so much hate was b/c I havent had a tank in my last few pt's so it could have been that. But yeah I like that idea, I think a stratagem that lowers enmity for self target would be very nice! Just think when SCH is able to AoE Cure IV that would be really nice to lower the enmity generated from that especially when curing an entire alliance that way.

[Saren]

especially when curing an entire alliance that way.

....curing an entire alliance? I haven't levelled sch high enough to test this but I assumed party members only which the in game description supports.

I like the enmity down strategm idea but I think it would fit in better with the current stratagems as a simple 'half/reduced enmity gained from the next spell' effect rather than being able to target other party members.

[IfritnoItazura]

the action of overstepping the line means you're probably upping your damage done
Correct. This is the along the same line as the idea as melees using /NIN must cross the threshold set by tanks to justify Utusemi.

Mages get better use out of Clear Mind when they can cast spells for short time (e.g. chain nuke), then rest for long time. The concept here is do just the right amount of damage in the "up on feet" time, which is slightly over the limit. Then, use the Drain to regain some of the HP back efficiently (plus a little more damage), just before going back to /heal on.

Of course, should cast Drain anyway, even if one didn't manage to get to the threshold, since it's still efficient. And yes, go stand near tank when trying this.

As for the stratagem -- what others have said. A spell that modifies the enmity of next spell cast is much more viable (maybe have the White version lower the enmity of next person cured or buffed? Too THF, still). Also fits very well into the flavor of the job when you consider Their aptitude towards Regens and DoTs.
SCH probably has enough enmity- gear to make lowering enmity for next spell to be less than useful. Lowering the target's enmity still sounds like a bad fit. I'd much rather have "double the duration of next" enhancing or enfeebling spell or something like that, if SCH gets a new Stratagem.

[Tomato_Kai]

Oddly enough Saph, you aren't alone in noticing this. I'm still in the exp-party levels, and was leveling with a few friends in Yhoater on my mnk. The party setup ran something like this: 30 MNK/WAR, 29 WHM/BLM, 30 NIN/WAR, 30 PLD/WAR, 29 SCH/BLM, 28 THF/WAR.

The party itself wasn't bad. Bouncing around hate between the pld and nin was rather fun, though they weren't quite good enough to let me go full-out with Berserk or Focus yet. That's irrelevant though. What would suck, was when the SCH/BLM would nuke. Even just using Thunder and Blizzard, he would pull hate on nearly *every* cast. And it's not like he was spamming either, or that we were using a WAR/THF, or that the levels were bad.... or even that his damage output was significant. Honestly, I was doing significantly more damage than He. Thunder would hit for 45ish and burst for 85ish, wheras I was hitting for 20-30 per fist, and WSing for 150 and barely getting a lick. The math just doesn't add up.

While I'm not entirely in agreement that SCH's need a hate adjustment of any particular sort, I will agree that this is definitely something I've noticed.

[Icemage]

I've pulled hate a few times in lower level parties on my SCH. Nothing too dangerous; it's not like WHMs or BLMs are any safer.

For the low levels, I just overloaded on Evasion and -Enmity gears; it's saved me on several occasions.

One thing to avoid is using your newest Cure spells until they're capped; it's a good way to get pummelled, just as it is for WHM.

If you're seriously worried about pulling hate, eat some Roast Mushrooms. It'll lower your enmity.


Icemage

[Coinspinner]

It always seems like I get hate way more easily while nuking than melee do, regardless of the actual damage I'm doing. I always thought nukes had some sort of volatile enmity on them that melee attacks didn't.

Anyway, I want a -Enmity Stratagem that is subable. Melee currently have enmity manipulation options (TA & High Jump), I want one for BLM, and I guess SCH.

For the low levels, I just overloaded on Evasion and -Enmity gears; it's saved me on several occasions.

The ones with enchantments? Other than that I only see Mycophile Cuffs and Tamas Ring for SCH. I've got the first of those two.

[Saphiera]

....curing an entire alliance? I haven't levelled sch high enough to test this but I assumed party members only which the in game description supports.

I like the enmity down strategm idea but I think it would fit in better with the current stratagems as a simple 'half/reduced enmity gained from the next spell' effect rather than being able to target other party members.

Yes just what I said curing an entire alliance, SCH's AoE is not limited to just ppl in your party its whoever is in the AoE range and in pt or alliance. I know this for a fact my best friend is lvl 75 SCH and this is one thing I have found out to be true.

[Icemage]

The ones with enchantments? Other than that I only see Mycophile Cuffs and Tamas Ring for SCH. I've got the first of those two.
Healer's Earring is OK if you're /WHM. There's some other oddball things too, like Horror Head.

Evasion gear is easy to come by though. Composite Eye Circlet, Scentless Armlets, Martial Slacks, Light Soleas, Silver Earrings/Dodge Earrings, etc.


Icemage

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Staff Strap is also -2 Enmity, I've been mulling over -enmity gear for my /mage builds on COR and plan to pick one up for SCH as well

[IfritnoItazura]

Yes just what I said curing an entire alliance, SCH's AoE is not limited to just ppl in your party its whoever is in the AoE range and in pt or alliance. I know this for a fact my best friend is lvl 75 SCH and this is one thing I have found out to be true.
Really? That's very, very, very interesting, and good to know. That means two or three Scholars can keep a full alliance buffed with Stoneskin nearly full-time, AoE depending? Right now, even before S-E's upcoming update to SCH? Well, well, well.

^____________^

[Saphiera]

Really? That's very, very, very interesting, and good to know. That means two or three Scholars can keep a full alliance buffed with Stoneskin nearly full-time, AoE depending? Right now, even before S-E's upcoming update to SCH? Well, well, well.

^____________^

Yeah you see all the people out there hateing on SCH but did you ever ask them how far they've taken the job? most will say "oh its lvl 12" or nah I only lvled it to 37 for a SJ, most of them dont even have it past 30 yet, and yet they seem to think the job sucks? I say wait till 40 then give it a real try.

My last few pt's where in fact mana burn's we had 4xblm and me on SCH lvl 47, I was doing about 230-280 on T2 unresisted (90%) of the time, I had asked a friend who didnt have filters on how much dmg I was doing compared to the BLM's, they said it was Neck and neck hmm no wonder I keep stealing hate, if SCH can heal just like a WHM and nuke like a BLM how much hate do you think I can generate in one fight? quite a bit lol, later on BLM is going to surpass SCH only b/c of AM and T4 nukes, although BLM will alaways be better at nuking than SCH, SCH wont be too far behind (a lot better than RDM LOL). Hopefully SE realizes just how much SCH can benefit from T4.

[Coinspinner]

I don't think SCH will ever have T4 nukes, that's what our Helices are supposed to replace. Right now, thanks to the gear available to them, at 70+ RDM can be a better nukers than SCH. I expect updates will change that eventually, but looking at TAU jobs I think it'll be a long time in coming.

I gotta try out that alliance Accession thing. If you could heal the entire alliance without even being in it, then wow.

[Saren]

Yes just what I said curing an entire alliance, SCH's AoE is not limited to just ppl in your party its whoever is in the AoE range and in pt or alliance. I know this for a fact my best friend is lvl 75 SCH and this is one thing I have found out to be true.

I grabbed a level 63 sch and a few other friends and tried this out, it's not true. We tried accession + protect and accession + cure. Both are supposed to stack with accession, both just affected members of the scholar's party not the whole alliance and we definitely were not out of range.

Edit: tried accession + curaga aswell just to be absolutely sure. Still only affected members of the scholar's party not the whole alliance.

[IfritnoItazura]

only affected members of the scholar's party not the whole alliance.
Oh well. Probably would've been too powerful if it was true. Thanks for testing it.

[Saphiera]

I grabbed a level 63 sch and a few other friends and tried this out, it's not true. We tried accession + protect and accession + cure. Both are supposed to stack with accession, both just affected members of the scholar's party not the whole alliance and we definitely were not out of range.

Edit: tried accession + curaga aswell just to be absolutely sure. Still only affected members of the scholar's party not the whole alliance.

yeah sorry when I talked to my friend about it again he said that its not an alliance they can cure, its they can cast the AoE enhanced spell on another party and get everyone in that party's AoE cured or paralyna'd etc. sorry I just missunderstood him.