Subjobs, Or: Murphie Shows His Ignorance

[Murphie]

I couldn't think of exactly where to put this thread, but then I figured "Hey, I'm a returning player of sorts!" so I decided to put it here. Feel free to move it tho.

I haven't decided what job I'd like to take to 75 next (honestly, I'd like to take a couple, but I know I need to focus on 1-2 to keep the task reasonable). In the meantime, I'm trying to sort potential future subs out.

So I already have DRK WAR NIN BLM and WHM at SJ level and I in the process of leveling THF and RNG to 37. What other subs do I need to think about?

MNK - Do I have any reason to level this if I'm not going to level WAR past 40? Would I even need it then?

SCH - What jobs sub this?

DNC - Ditto.

SAM - Is this still a desirable sub for some jobs?

I haven't mentioned PLD DRG BLU COR or BRD because those are the jobs I'm deciding on for the push to 75. If I go with one or more of them are there subjobs I should consider leveling outside of the ones I'm already working on?

I also haven't mentioned PUP or BST. I know BST is like, the best soloing SJ ever, but I'm not sure that leveling BST to 75 right now just to make soloing easier is what I want to do. One day perhaps.

So, thoughts, comments, insults? Thanks in advance.

[Kuro]

DNc makes a much better solo job than bst (unless you are DNC) for any melee job.

SAM is still the OMGWTFBBQ awesome melee subjob for DRK and such.

SCH is generally a good sub for any of the mages, PLD are best off sticking to /WAR.

MNK is a useless sub as allways, apart from perhaps some strange endgame stuff that requires insane amounts of HP on a PLD.

Why would you need 75 bst for soloing? bst/dnc 37 is for soloing, perhaps whm or nin for some camps.

For COR you'll need that RNG sub (come near me or Kitten with a mage sub and you may loose parts of your body - yes i use it in dynamis but thats only because im broke and can't buy bullets) BLU can use a couple subs but you should be ok, DRG and PLD you're ok with WAR but your DRG will need to use /WHM sometimes and to solo /WHM, you're going to want /sam for DRG in the 60's. Remember to make a GOOD DRG you need to spent a god damned fortune! If you're nkown to have awesome egar you have better chances for invites, but still don't count on it.

PUP is sort of a bad soloing sub now. DNC has kind of killed all other subjobs for melee jobs and the cost to make your automation good is high (plus you need to get all the frames so thats more leveling)

[LilithAngel]

Funny you should mention those jobs, as I have extensive experience in them from working with them so much. Let's go down the list...

Dragoon: Hooo boy, where to begin. The subs you're gonna want for this one extend almost across the board, with the exception of the other pet jobs, and Monk. Monk just doesn't give Dragoon anything that another couldn't offer and then some. Pet jobs, by nature, not an option (the whole one pet at a time thing). That being said, here are your options if you wanna keep the leveling of subs to a minimum.

-Warrior: good, solid, all-around melee sub. It's got your DD options, some "oh snap, I need to live and Super Jump ain't up" options, and even a little boost to the pals option (Warcry). Good. Solid. Staple.

-White Mage: good, solid, all-around mage sub. It's got your protections, your status cures, and even makes your Wyvern super party friendly. You can help with status cures with little loss in DD potential, hate management isn't so much of a concern with hate-shedding tools, and having the most MP-efficient cures in the game is always a bonus, regardless of the trigger conditions. Good. Solid. Staple.

Now, with that being said as well, there are variances you can do for Dragoon that'll shift your focus one way or another (or even enhance w/e your focus already is). You can swap out Warrior for Thief, Samurai, Dark Knight, or Blue Mage for additional DD prowess, or Samurai, Ninja, Blue Mage, or Paladin for a more defensive-minded DD (notice the usage some of the same jobs there). On the mage side, Black Mage, Red Mage, Blue Mage, and Bard can all offer some things White Mage doesn't, while still keeping the flavor of Dragoon/Mage intact. You could even go Dragoon/Enhancer with subs such as Bard, Ninja, Scholar, Dancer, Corsair, and the like.

Blue Mage: Blue Mage is a job that can redefine itself through the spells and gear it equips. This is true even to the sub job it equips as well. The style and play of a Blue Mage is even often dictated by the sub job. Subbing Ninja, for example, tends to favor a fast, quick-DD, spamming of spells style of play, while subbing Thief tends to lend a more "line up your opportunities and strike at the right time" style. Warrior gives a heavy, hard-hitting, yet consistent, DoT DD, while Paladin creates the opportunity to be a near-impervious wall-o-death DD at times (my personal favorite for Campaign).

Blue Mage quickly became a job I love, because you can play it however you want, and it'll work. The only real wrong way to play it is to not match your gear to your sub and spell list.

Corsair: While I'm sure BBQ can espouse a litany on Corsair longer than I can, I still have my own experiences that I had when taking this job to 75 that I can share. Early on, yeah, not having a gun to work on Marksmanship with kinda sucked. That made me think "what am I gonna do to fix that on my own?" My answer? Thief. While I had already leveled Thief, it didn't stop me from picking up a crossbow, a handful of cheap bolts, and heading out to pick off worms for a while. That paid off dividends, just for a bit of forethought.

As for subs, I used Ninja and Ranger, two jobs I never really wanted to level before, but my wanting to level Gambler- er, I mean, Corsair, made me see that I have to work outside my comfort zone to get what I want. Nowadays, it seems that Dancer is looking to be a good option for this job as well. White Mage is still useful and needed in some endgame activities, if for nothing else, to ensure your own survival.

Paladin: I've been having a blast playing this job, and I've found I actually enjoy tanking, and so far (level 60 as of this post), it's been a really easy thing to do, crazy ass Warriors, Thieves, Monks, Rangers, Dark Knights, Samurai, Dragoons, Black Mages, Blue Mages, and White Mages included. Warrior is more or less bread-and-butter, while Ninja is (apparently, from what I've seen and read) essential to endgame. Other than that, Mages of the Red and Blue variety can give Paladin some very scary abilities that make them a beast to kill.

Dancer: This job, as well, I've been enjoying. While only 50 as of this post, it still have left enough of an impression on me to figure out what kind of assets it will give as a sub. It has given most melees the ability to put their TP to use outside of just mindlessly WSing, while allowing them to offer other things to the party/alliance/what-have-you other than just "hit auto-attack and go make a sammich" play. Healing without needing to gear any differently is a solid approach to the design of the job in my book.

Well, as you can see, the above jobs can have a lot of overlap in subs, so leveling a lot of them can be really beneficial. The core tend to be Warrior, White Mage, and Ninja; however, don't be fooled into thinking that's all you'll ever need. Also, don't feel that you can't experiment. You may be surprised at what you'll find if you do so. I know myself and a lot of my IRL friends who play had no clue how strong a combo BLU/PLD was until I tried it out, then showed it to them. A few of them were floored at how much staying power that combo has while keeping its DD potential mostly intact.

You may find something similar in your meandering.

[Icemage]

The answer to your question revolves around the jobs you want to raise to 75.

PLD:
/WAR is the traditional sub.
I hear good things about /DNC, but have yet to see the combo in action.
/NIN can be very useful once you're at 75 - IF you do a lot of endgame.

DRG:
I'll defer to LadyKiki's experience with this job's subs.

BLU:
Pretty flexible job.
/THF for damage post-44.
/NIN for more safety at any level 24+.
/WHM if you prefer a healer/support role.
/DNC is an intriguing possibility as well.

COR:
Ask Omgwtfbbqkitten about this job.
Common wisdom suggests /NIN or /WHM, however.

BRD:
/WHM is the predominant sub here.
/NIN at 74+ for merit parties only.

As a whole, based on the jobs you want to raise, I'd go with Dancer and Ninja as subjobs to raise, as they're both useful in a number of contexts.

/SCH is basically only really useful for White Mages. Light Arts is simply godly for a mage that uses exclusively white magic. BLM and RDM can get a bit of mileage from this sub, but not nearly as much due to its inflexibility and very limited spell list.


Icemage

[Murphie]

Ok, so it sounds like I'm pretty much on the right track. MNK can stay at 18 until the end of time, but THF and DNC are two I need to focus on getting up to speed, as well as RNG for COR.

I don't think I'm going to take WHM past 42 ever, but you never know. So maybe I'll still level SCH to 37. But not right now.

[Icemage]

Ok, so it sounds like I'm pretty much on the right track. MNK can stay at 18 until the end of time, but THF and DNC are two I need to focus on getting up to speed, as well as RNG for COR.

I don't think I'm going to take WHM past 42 ever, but you never know. So maybe I'll still level SCH to 37. But not right now.
Skip Ranger sub. There really are no jobs that need /RNG. Not even COR. No one really invites Corsairs as primary damage dealers, so picking a sub that only vaguely impacts your damage potential, and at the cost of other factors (safety, support) isn't such a good idea.

Realistically, the only job that even makes good use of /RNG is Samurai, specifically post-50 Samurais using Soboro Sukehiro for Sidewinder spam.


Icemage

[Grizzlebeard]

MNK can stay at 18 until the end of time

But taru Asuran Fists animation looks so cute!

[Armando]

Why would you need 75 bst for soloing? bst/dnc 37 is for soloing, perhaps whm or nin for some camps.He never said "need," but the benefits are obvious. You charm stuff, it can tank for you and increase your damage output all at the same time, and now it won't even cut into your EXP. Contrast that with /DNC, in which you'd take all of the damage and would have to use your TP towards healing yourself, which in turn greatly gimps your damage by not letting you WS. /NIN would cut into your melee time greatly because Utsusemi: Ichi takes forever to cast, and you'd be casting it constantly to stay alive. /WHM also cuts into your combat time because of casting magic, and forces you to rest every so often.

Not saying that with /BST you'd never have to rest, or that you'd never have to hold back so that you don't make too much hate over your pet, but it generally does have the upper hand at keeping you alive while killing the mob reasonably fast. The drawback is, of course, having to take it up as a second job and not as merely a sub.

/MNK sucks as a sub and I've even lost faith it in for WAR. Counter will only proc at best 9.5% of the time and that's if you have capped hit rate. If your hit rate blows, your Counter rate will blow proportionately. Shouldn't be an issue if you have Shield Break but I'm just saying, 9.5% is just the best case scenario. Even just the 6 initial shadows from Utsusemi: Ichi can match or exceed that. The only other thing going for it is Boost, which generates about as much Volatile Enmity as casting Utsusemi: Ichi in the first place.

[Murphie]

But taru Asuran Fists animation looks so cute!

I have to agree with you there. If only the levels between me and it weren't so interminable.

[IfritnoItazura]

PLD
Need: /WAR, /NIN (endgame and some merit parties)
Optional: /RDM (fun soloing), /DNC (one day may become "need"), /WHM
* /WHM is for begging to be let into exp parties on bad days. It can work, but not for those stubborn, /WAR only players.

BLU
Need: /NIN, /THF
Optional: /WHM, maybe /SAM for meditate in some weird situations.

COR
Need: /RNG /NIN /WHM
Optional: /DNC, /SAM(?)
* Breaking rank with Icemage here; even before Slugshot, COR can do decent damage, and /RNG is very helpful for achieving that. In parties which do not need another cure source or puller, /RNG is the way to go.

BRD
Need: /WHM /NIN
Optional: /BLM (endgame, and rarely needed)
* /NIN can be useful as soon as Utsusemi: Ichi becomes available. It's earlier than Blink from /WHM, and more reliable. Obviously not a factor unless pulling.

DRG
Need: /WHM, /SAM, /WAR
Optional: /NIN (nice for some BC fights), /BLU and /RDM (as alternative to /WHM)

The "Optional" lists are not exhaustive; just a sampling.

There are some support jobs which are good in (mostly weird) situations, and work for many different main jobs:
- /DRG is terrific for High Jump to lose some enmity. Attack Bonus and Accuracy Bonus aren't bad, either.
- /BLU when getting hit more often than Utsusemi can handle, and for Wild Carrot and Healing Breeze.
- /PLD for auto-refresh, when the main job has MP and melee capability. (e.g. A soloing RDM/PLD looks less stupid than RDM/SMN, if only marginally so.)
- /NIN for Utsusemi (duh), and apparently un-resistible debuff from -ton spells to lower resist against element of choice. Dual Wield is an easy and consistent way to increase DoT and WS damage from one-handed weapons, too.
- /DNC for toss out cures w/out MP worries, provided that TP is easy to get.
- /SCH for usable Aspir on any main; Light/Dark Arts enables more efficient spell casting. Grants access to Cure III, Regen II, and Raise, IIRC.
- /SAM for Meditate, and for Hasso/Seigan (two-handed weapons only).

Or, just ignore all that, and level /NIN--that's the one major missing support job from your list, I think.


p.s. "Race & Job Type Q & A"

[Murphie]

Oops. I don't know why I forgot to list it among my already leveled subs.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

I couldn't think of exactly where to put this thread, but then I figured "Hey, I'm a returning player of sorts!" so I decided to put it here. Feel free to move it tho.

I haven't decided what job I'd like to take to 75 next (honestly, I'd like to take a couple, but I know I need to focus on 1-2 to keep the task reasonable). In the meantime, I'm trying to sort potential future subs out.

So I already have DRK WAR NIN BLM and WHM at SJ level and I in the process of leveling THF and RNG to 37. What other subs do I need to think about?

MNK - Do I have any reason to level this if I'm not going to level WAR past 40? Would I even need it then?

Aside from WAR, /MNK is hardly used for anything. Could be of use to PUP or THF at low levels, but that's about all I can see using /MNK

SCH - What jobs sub this?

/SCH is best put to use by WHM, RDM and SMN at this point, it doesn't really offer RDM anything. Its nice because /SCH trims down the cost of types of magic affected by Light and Dark Arts, the 1/2 MP cost Strategims are also helpful. SCH also gets Regen II under and Aspir under sub, which is useful to any of the three. The B skill in Dark Magic is a real bonus as well.


DNC - Ditto.


Very good for a wide range of melee and tank jobs, particularly those that can get thier hands on a mult-hit weapon at later levels. Not so hot for RNG or mage jobs, though RDM could use it fairly well in a small party, thier role in larger partys is too casting intensive for them to spend time TPing for cures.

SAM - Is this still a desirable sub for some jobs?

WAR, DRK, DRG and RNG are all jobs that can draw benefits from SAM the best. Its also a noteworthy subjob for DNC at 60+ when you get meditate under the subjob. While DNC wouldn't get the benefit of Hasso or Seigan, Reverse Flourish and Meditate are a match made in heaven.


I haven't mentioned PLD DRG BLU COR or BRD because those are the jobs I'm deciding on for the push to 75. If I go with one or more of them are there subjobs I should consider leveling outside of the ones I'm already working on?

PLD - WAR, WHM, NIN and DNC all have uses. WAR is your defacto tanking sub, NIN your meritpo/endgame sub. Jury is still out on DNC, but I've seen it hold hate like a machine. its like working with a Taru PLD on any race. They can just keep curing themselves and are a blood tanking magnet.

DRG - SAM, WAR, THF, BLU, WHM, RDM subs get the best out of both worlds of the subs. I've never been a fan of the balanced wyvern, though, so I can't reccommend subs that relate to that. I've seen people use /DNC for solo on it, but I remain of the opinion the mage subs are still better for that end. /DNC produces an offensive wyvern, as DNC has no spells.

BLU - THF, WAR, NIN, WHM, RDM are all functional. Great duo partner for many jobs, too.

COR - Oh boy, you asked for it. Muahahaha. RNG, DNC, WHM, NIN, RDM, BLU, BRD would be your main round of subjobs to play. RNG and DNC are probably the best of your EXP subs, while mage subs are best reserved for pre-30 levels and endgame. NIN and BRD are more for merits, though BRD can be endgame sub as well in some places. WAR gets used sometimes in merit, but only if you've unlocked the Detonator weaponskill.

BRD - WHM, RDM, BLU, NIN all work out well. Not much to reinvent about BRD subs.

I also haven't mentioned PUP or BST. I know BST is like, the best soloing SJ ever, but I'm not sure that leveling BST to 75 right now just to make soloing easier is what I want to do. One day perhaps.

/BST for soloing successfully requires... BST at 75. Yep. /BST is the subjob that breaks all the subjob rules, its skill in charming seems to directly affected by the subjob's real leve. I actually tested it out when my BST was 37 on my 75 BRD. Got my ass handed to me by some Wajaom Tigers, couldn't charm them at all with subbed Charm.

BST subs are presently - WHM, RDM, BLU (limted use), DNC, NIN, WAR and SAM. The big melee subs here are for actual PTs, the rest is for solo. I still regard WHM and NIN the best of the solo subs, /NIN got a lot better with the addition of Snarl, easy to put up shadows with that. /WHM just has all the curative abilites, you can't get status cures til 70 with DNC sub.

PUP does well with WHM, WAR, and DNC these days. The soulsoother attachment did a lot for giving them a PT role, even if it was probably the last one they wanted.

Skip Ranger sub. There really are no jobs that need /RNG. Not even COR. No one really invites Corsairs as primary damage dealers, so picking a sub that only vaguely impacts your damage potential, and at the cost of other factors (safety, support) isn't such a good idea.

Realistically, the only job that even makes good use of /RNG is Samurai, specifically post-50 Samurais using Soboro Sukehiro for Sidewinder spam.

Icemage

I outdamage SAM Sidewinders with my Slugs and Detonators regularly, thank you very much.

Just because no one invites CORs to BE damage dealers doesn't mean they can't be damage dealers. As of the Addition of Steel Bullets and the Detonator adjustment the job has come very close to stepping on RNG's toes, anyone who's played both can tell you that.

/RNG is also a very decent melee sub in the 20s, that Accuracy Bonus trait brings a lot more to the table than other subs will for melees of that level. You can't get the first Accuracy Bonus trait from /DNC or /DRG til 60, you can get it from /RNG at 20.

[Icemage]

I outdamage SAM Sidewinders with my Slugs and Detonators regularly, thank you very much.
Yes, but do you gain TP as fast as a Soboro SAM, even with Joyeuse?

Just because no one invites CORs to BE damage dealers doesn't mean they can't be damage dealers. As of the Addition of Steel Bullets and the Detonator adjustment the job has come very close to stepping on RNG's toes, anyone who's played both can tell you that.
I'm not downplaying the raw damage potential of COR, but it isn't and never has been a primary damage dealing job, due to the role that's typically shoved onto it.

Not that having the sub available if you need it is a bad thing, but the point of this thread is prioritization of which subjobs to level, and of the jobs listed, /RNG only benefits COR, and not nearly to the degree of other available options.

/RNG is also a very decent melee sub in the 20s, that Accuracy Bonus trait brings a lot more to the table than other subs will for melees of that level. You can't get the first Accuracy Bonus trait from /DNC or /DRG til 60, you can get it from /RNG at 20.
That I can agree with, but most jobs get something more decent to sub by level 30, so if you're just looking for an ACC bonus trait to hold you over until another sub gives you something more useful, 15 levels of Ranger is adequate.


Icemage

[Kuro]

What happend to you Icemage? I used to think you were cool!

... oh wait, nevermind.

[Callisto]

BBQ forgot /WAR for COR. It's really only useful for merits, but /WAR using Sushi can easily cap melee hit rate for TP building while still having higher attack most of the time compared to a COR/RNG eating meat. Aside from that, /RNG is the mandatory sub, /NIN is useful for pulling but meh otherwise, /WHM is good for when you're playing Bardsair, which can happen often at endgame events, especially as a Taru, although I'd prefer /RDM over it for the 20% boost to Quick Draw damage unless -nas are really neccesary. In any fight where you can melee for TP, /DNC would work just as well as /WHM, and would probably be better for solo/campaign.

Now the other jobs I actually know something about:

RDM: If you can get it to 37, you'll probably find some occassion to sub it. I use BLM, WHM, DRK, NIN all very often, /WAR, /THF, and /RNG situationally, and would use /SCH for Limbus/Sea if I had it past 18.

For BRD, WHM and NIN are the obvious stand-by subs, although if you are into HNM you'll want /BLM available as well, Elemental Seal > Troubadour > Elegy is too big of a difference maker to be overlooked.
______________________________
I'm not downplaying the raw damage potential of COR, but it isn't and never has been a primary damage dealing job, due to the role that's typically shoved onto it.

I agreed with that up until the last meripo I had as COR, where I finally got around to toying with COR/WAR in a good setup without being responsible for pulling. I easily put up higher WS #'s than anyone else in the party on a consistent basis, blowing away a DRK's Guillotine's, a SAM's Tachis, and Penta Thrust, while still being able to consistently build TP fast enough to WS every fight or two, would have been more but we were pretty much 3-shotting every mob, and I had to sit on TP many times b/c someone would get the killshot right as I hit my WS macro, and I'm too smart to open a fight with Slug Shot.

Edit: Here's a shot from the party to show I'm not being fecetious, setup was me, DRG/BLU, RDM/NIN(was more pulling and letting the DRG heal), BRD/NIN, SAM/THF, and DRK/THF. The highest chain we hit was only 88 unfortunately, the SAM d/c'd when we hit 79 :(
http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e127/rprice80/Slug.jpg

This was as COR/WAR using Squid+1, and it happened fairly often in that party. I'd say I averaged about 1600 per WS over the course of the party, my high was 2218 with Berserk/11 Chaos/Double Minuet/Warcy, low was 1k~ during a minute or so span where I had missed a Minuet, was in between having DRK roll on myself, and Berserk was down, under normal circumstances of Berserk/7 Chaos/Double Min I was easy averaging 1900, the drop to 1500-1600 coming in the minute or so span when I would cycle to Evoker's/Hunter's on myself.

I've been getting invited to come as a DD more and more often recently as COR, while you're right that it's not what they get invited to do often, playerbase mindset, etc, I think it's really more of a case of people not being used to playing with DD-minded CORs, and instead being subjected to Bardairs who are too scared to use their expensive bullets and good food.

The point is not to derail, sorry if I did, but the point is blanket statements like:
Skip Ranger sub. There really are no jobs that need /RNG. Not even COR. No one really invites Corsairs as primary damage dealers, so picking a sub that only vaguely impacts your damage potential, and at the cost of other factors (safety, support) isn't such a good idea.

shouldn't be tossed around in a subjob discussion. If it's a useful sub, even situationally, there's no reason not to level it. COR is very capable of being one of the main DDs in the party, and if you plan on leveling the job you should level those DD-minded subs to have them available should you find yourself in a position to fill that role, the same way that RDM/WHM can easily be the main healer, so you should probably level WHM sub for it in case that's what you get invited for.

[Celeal]

As for melee's subjobs, /war or /nin should cover most exp. parties in various level ranges. Then another common or useful sub is /THF, and then /sam (main job post level 50~60+, especially for 2-hander user).

Added: There is a lot of potential for /DNC too.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Yes, but do you gain TP as fast as a Soboro SAM, even with Joyeuse?

Not really a fair comparison you're going for there. If you're trying to say my damage is somehow less relevant due to my TP gain, that's a bit unfair since I do have to stop to buff. But if we're talking about not buffing at all, sure, not too hard to keep up on TP at all.

You're also forgetting SAM has lower rating in Archery than COR does in Marksmanship, which hurts damage potential for the SAM somewhat. Accuracy is not as hard to overcome due to all the ranged accuracy gear out there, but is SAM/RNG going to miss more Sidewinders? Yep.


I'm not downplaying the raw damage potential of COR, but it isn't and never has been a primary damage dealing job, due to the role that's typically shoved onto it.

Not that having the sub available if you need it is a bad thing, but the point of this thread is prioritization of which subjobs to level, and of the jobs listed, /RNG only benefits COR, and not nearly to the degree of other available options.


The thread was about what subs are good for which job and why, its really Murphie's call in how to prioritize them. I'd say if he has the gil to spare now, level RNG sub just to get it done. People tend to make it out to be more expensive than it actually is. If you have 3-400k to spare, easy enough to get out of the way and, better, if you just finish it to 40 you have options for using it to help out in CoPs or BCNMs at those levels.

Its also just a really fun job to play. People need to get over the pricetags in this game and allow themselves to have some fun. People are far too conservative with thier gil in FFXI.

Also, Callisto is right, /WAR is nice for COR, but its really an merit only sub and more specifically useful if you have Martial Gun and Detonator unlocked. /SAM is a pretty fun sub for PvP and campaign. That said, as of now, in the 30+ world, I regard /RNG and /DNC its best EXP subs.

[Mhurron]

Not really a fair comparison you're going for there. If you're trying to say my damage is somehow less relevant due to my TP gain, that's a bit unfair since I do have to stop to buff.I think you'll find this is exactly what he was getting at. Statement was made about real party mechanics, not e-peen stroking. A COR can not match the damage output of a SAM in a normal party because that is not what their primary role is. They have to stop and do their party responsibilities where as a SAM's existence in the party is to do damage.

In a skillup party I (RDM Taru wearing Wise gear) let out a weapon skill that had higher damage then a WAR and SAM pulled off moments before.

Is this any indication that I can fill a premier DD role in a party? No, it's a funny bit of information but nothing more. That you may weaponskill for weaponskill outdamage a job that is there just to do damage is irrelevant since they're doing, especially SAM, more of those weapon skills.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

I think you'll find this is exactly what he was getting at. Statement was made about real party mechanics, not e-peen stroking. A COR can not match the damage output of a SAM in a normal party because that is not what their primary role is. They have to stop and do their party responsibilities where as a SAM's existence in the party is to do damage.

If my primary role is buffing, I'm only doing that once or twice a fight, COR has a minute long shared recast timer on thier buffs. The whole point of the job - not terribly unlike DNC - is to bring support and damage to the party. CORs that don't bring damage waste a slot in PT and should have a BRD/WHM taking thier place. There is the exception of melee x4 setups - That's a case where my damage would be irrelevant and then I should focus on pure support or pulling because the damage being brought by the melees is more than sufficient.

And since the SAM/RNG thing wooshed on you, I'll point out SAM can bring other duties to PT, like pulling. Sometimes, it is asked of them and many come prepared for the role. You'll find that Seigan is a rather useful tool to this end. SAM also tanks in some setups pretty well. Its not as one-dimensional as you seem to think, its what the player makes of it.

[Icemage]

Not really a fair comparison you're going for there. If you're trying to say my damage is somehow less relevant due to my TP gain, that's a bit unfair since I do have to stop to buff. But if we're talking about not buffing at all, sure, not too hard to keep up on TP at all.

You're also forgetting SAM has lower rating in Archery than COR does in Marksmanship, which hurts damage potential for the SAM somewhat. Accuracy is not as hard to overcome due to all the ranged accuracy gear out there, but is SAM/RNG going to miss more Sidewinders? Yep.
I think it's an entirely fair comparison to make.

Soboro-equipped SAM/RNG do a really, really good job at making it to the top of a damage parse in a party. Sure, they'll miss the occasional Sidewinder, but they not only get more time to melee, but they also get Store TP, Hasso, Zanshin, and Meditate to improve their weaponskill frequency - all of that without impacting what the party is expecting them to do.

Sure, a Corsair will do a solid amount of damage with a decent gun and some steel bullets plus a Ranger sub, but they're going to be a lot less effective and flexible for a typical party than a Corsair that's doing the support role/pulling role + damage.

The thread was about what subs are good for which job and why, its really Murphie's call in how to prioritize them. I'd say if he has the gil to spare now, level RNG sub just to get it done. People tend to make it out to be more expensive than it actually is. If you have 3-400k to spare, easy enough to get out of the way and, better, if you just finish it to 40 you have options for using it to help out in CoPs or BCNMs at those levels.
If you can tell me that getting /RNG is a more effective use of time than levelling /NIN to 37, or even /DNC to 37, for the list of primary jobs he posted, then I don't think this conversation is going anywhere because we aren't even reading the same book, let alone on the same page.

Its also just a really fun job to play. People need to get over the pricetags in this game and allow themselves to have some fun. People are far too conservative with thier gil in FFXI.

Also, Callisto is right, /WAR is nice for COR, but its really an merit only sub and more specifically useful if you have Martial Gun and Detonator unlocked. /SAM is a pretty fun sub for PvP and campaign. That said, as of now, in the 30+ world, I regard /RNG and /DNC its best EXP subs.
What is /RNG going to do for the rest of the jobs on his list? I'd have serious issues with a Paladin who shows up to a party as PLD/RNG... at any level.


Icemage

[Murphie]

To be fair, I already have NIN at 37. And I'm not looking for speed. So I don't mind if it takes a couple of extra weeks to level a lesser used sub. I'd rather get all of my options out of the way now than have to go back later and take yet another job up through the 20s and 30s.

[Wise Donkey]

I'd rather get all of my options out of the way now than have to go back later and take yet another job up through the 20s and 30s.

Definitely the way to go. When I returned I sold all my THF gear and retired it until I got WAR and NIN to 37. Having to worry about leveling a SJ is frustrating and not having to worry about it is a luxury.

[Yellow Mage]

What is /RNG going to do for the rest of the jobs on his list? I'd have serious issues with a Paladin who shows up to a party as PLD/RNG... at any level.

Maybe he was largely referring to Accuracy Bonus?

Though, to be fair, I don't think he was expecting people to go through every combination of jobs Murphie listed and subs he listed. At best, this qualifies as a nitpick.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Icemage:

I think you're on a different page, you just said something before that could easily be taken as "COR can't DD good" That's the page I was on. This statement:

Skip Ranger sub. There really are no jobs that need /RNG. Not even COR. No one really invites Corsairs as primary damage dealers, so picking a sub that only vaguely impacts your damage potential, and at the cost of other factors (safety, support) isn't such a good idea.

Very easy to take the wrong way.

If I were to go on the RDM forum and say "Skip WHM" I'm certain you would have something to say about it. I mean, hey, a RDM can get invites and still cures, they're not always needed to play healer. And its true, people would still invite them, but would they respect them? I know a RDM that tells people they can skip WHM and sub /BLM straight to 75. As a former RDM, I sure as hell won't agree with that. He can think again if he thinks I'll camp Joyeuse for his sorry butt, dragging his PTs down like he does with no /WHM at 70+

Additionally, how does /RNG affect a COR's ability to support in any way? Its never really affected mine, though I have had my fair share of CORs that lose track of buff cycles, but then, its practically accepted these days because BRDs do it, too. I don't do it, I'm usually trying to reroll before the timer is back up.

Maybe its just because I was a 75 BRD and RNG first, I know where to play it safe and where to play fast and loose. I keep the buffs up and the WS coming with a Quick Draw each minute. I've never been a liability to my PTs.

Murphie doesn't strike me as a "zerg" player and him being a RDM, I think him having /NIN ready was a given. It was in his avatar months ago, little Taru casting Utsusemi. I may not get along with Murphie all the time, doesn't mean I don't keep tabs on his progress. I know he's the type that would take up subs before persuing something seriously.

Bardairs

I lol'd

[Mhurron]

If my primary role is buffing, I'm only doing that once or twice a fight, COR has a minute long shared recast timer on thier buffs. The whole point of the job - not terribly unlike DNC - is to bring support and damage to the party. CORs that don't bring damage waste a slot in PT and should have a BRD/WHM taking thier place.I never said that COR didn't do any damage, and obviously if they weren't they are quite useless. However there is a significant difference between doing no damage, and being the top damage dealer in a party. By nature of the job COR will not be at the top of normal parties. They have to stop every once and a while and do something that is not directly damaging the mob.

With a SAM and a COR doing nothing but swinging away at a mob, the SAM is going to do more damage by getting TP quicker and more weapon skills. The COR's damage is further reduced in the long run by stopping to cast buffs. If the COR is also pulling and goes to pull the next mob while the last bit of life is handled by others, again, in the long run this cuts into the amount of damage COR output. A weapon skill for weapon skill comparison is completely meaningless therefore comparing a SAM and COR's damage over the course of a party is completely fair.

And since the SAM/RNG thing wooshed on you, I'll point out SAM can bring other duties to PT, like pulling. Sometimes, it is asked of them and many come prepared for the role.
Simply because I chose not to mention it does not mean it 'wooshed' me. And guess what, if the SAM is disengaging before the mob is dead to go grab the next one, that is also cutting into his total damage output in exactly the same way a COR taking out time to buff cuts into theirs.

And just to be clear about this, no one said COR's damage was negligible except you when you took the suggestion that you might not be the best DD personally. They said no one invites COR primarily for DD, which in normal parties is completely true.

[Murphie]

If anything, I'm too far on the slow and methodical side of things.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

If anything, I'm too far on the slow and methodical side of things.

Nothing wrong with that.

[Murphie]

True, true. It only sucks when you see everyone else flying ahead of you and getting all the sweet gears. And then you realize that hey, you don't have the inventory space for those sweet gears anyway.

Or at least that's what you tell yourself.

[LilithAngel]

Heh, well, if it makes you feel any better (and I know it will), I haven't gotten any new piece of decent-to-good gear in the past year.

Ok, so the Haubergeon I bought last night for my Paladin doesn't count, cuz I'm still iffy on it (I may just sell it back; my friend Einhard [you should know him BBQ] was over at my place and convinced me to buy it. I got it for 100k cheaper on Kujata than he sees it on Midgar. Just another reason Midgar sux).

But other than that, I think the last piece of good gear I got was Barbarossa's Moufles. That was when Sevv first hopped over to Kujata. That was a while ago... :worry:

[Armando]

You really don't want to get rid of that Haubergeon. It's better than Gallant Surcoat in almost every situation that doesn't involve soloing.

[LilithAngel]

Orly? Well, I suppose the next time I take my Paladin out for a party, I could give it a try. I put together a semi-DD build for it already (you can't tell me you didn't see that coming), and was just looking at my options. I need to find a good spot to level Great Sword (it's at 105 currently).

I'm just really getting into this whole tanking thing, and I've had success so far doing what was apparently the "turtle style" of tanking. My main question would be would mixing it up at this point (60) be worth it to change my style of tanking, or am I letting the career DD in me try to turn Paladin into something it may not be? This is the main reason I'm still iffy on Hauby. :worry:

[Celeal]

Orly? Well, I suppose the next time I take my Paladin out for a party, I could give it a try. I put together a semi-DD build for it already (you can't tell me you didn't see that coming), and was just looking at my options. I need to find a good spot to level Great Sword (it's at 105 currently).

I'm just really getting into this whole tanking thing, and I've had success so far doing what was apparently the "turtle style" of tanking. My main question would be would mixing it up at this point (60) be worth it to change my style of tanking, or am I letting the career DD in me try to turn Paladin into something it may not be? This is the main reason I'm still iffy on Hauby. :worry:

Are you using sushi + Hauby + sword and shield while tanking as PLD/WAR at your level range? Or are you trying to hybrid tank in a party that works better with defensive style tanking?

At first I had my doubt with the idea of Hybrid-DD PLD style of tanking, but I am tanking full time in exp/merit party with Hybrid style since level 65. (I start with tanking with S.H from level 65+, and switch to Hauby at 70+)

Do not use Great Sword for Hybrid tanking, because the Shield is the major part of damage reduction when you are tanking with DD/mix gear and using DD food. Hybrid PLD is not about being a true DD; it is about using the sword as an additional source of hate, and shorten the duration of each battle.

The duration of each battle is the key of hybrid tanking: Faster the mob dies, potentially less damage done to the party. It is because a mob can only output X amount of damage in a given amount of time. If the party with Hybrid PLD tank can kill the mob within the *time-limit*, the damage taken from the Hybrid PLD (including the party) can be less than or equal to a Turtle PLD tank. The end result of Hybrid PLD is: The faster the mob dies, the rate of exp. gain is potentially higher.

However, if you are taking too much damage over time, or you party is not able to kill the mob within the *time-limit*, it is time to fall back to defensive style tanking in that situation.

[Armando]

You should always kill in DD gear. Always. Worst case scenario is your party overhunts, you realize you're taking damage at too fast a rate for the healers to keep up with, and you still keep the DD gear but eat Defense food. In any other situation you just use sushi.

Great Sword is useless because we can put out the same damage with a sword and still have a shield on. Even if Great Sword did do better damage, you'd be taking so much damage without a shield that the party wouldn't be able to keep up and you'd have to eat Defense food to compensate, so you'd be doing more damage with a sword and shield eating sushi anyways.

This has come up in various threads already. Take a look at these:
http://www.ffxionline.com/forums/paladin/68766-hybrid-pld-tank.html
http://www.ffxionline.com/forums/paladin/67315-plds-let-your-rants-out.html
http://www.ffxionline.com/forums/paladin/67568-midgame.html
http://www.ffxionline.com/forums/paladin/62474-should-i-put-dd-set-together-2.html

In addition, you can use my equipment guide as a reference, since it goes up to Lv.60: http://www.ffxionline.com/forums/paladin/68769-lv-10-60-equipment-guide.html

[LilithAngel]

Thanks.

I wasn't planning on using GSWD to tank with (that'd be dumb), but just for the fact that I have a job that's up there that can actually use them. More of a novelty thing. Sword n' Board all the way.

Yeah, I haven't used food at all since 55. Of course, I've also had nothing but colibri camps since 55 as well, but I anticipated that, so I worked around it. As I get past 60 and move onto other camps, I'll give other equipment options a try.

[LilithAngel]

A bit of an update, but after reading all those threads, it wasn't until I had gotten through the majority of them that I could make any sort of informed decision about whether I wanted to go DD, Hybrid, or Turtle Paladin. Unfortunately, every post had a point, and to a degree (a rather significant degree), were all right. I want to give DD/Hybrid a try, but I also an still sketchy on whether or not it'd be beneficial at 60.

The equip guide was nice, but I've already gotten to the end point of it. Amusingly enough, the last major purchases I've gone through (Gluttony Sword [oh noes!] and Haubergeon) were the only ones I've made in the past year or so that were any major chunk of change; leveling Dragoon, Blue Mage, Corsair, and Dancer gave me plenty of opportunity to use equipment I already own, and Paladin can make use of it. The sword and body piece were just because it's something unique I've had to deal with as a Paladin; while I've had to break into the world of Daggers with Dancer, it's nothing on the level of what using the larger Broadswords and heavy DD gear that I've experienced with Paladin. I wish I could use some of those swords on my Blue Mage, and some of those armors on my Dragoon. :(

And yes, Armando, I'll prolly continue using Glut for a bit. I picked up a Bastard Sword to offhand when I /NIN in Campaign, but I've been noticing a marked increase in DoT when I S'n'B with it, and that's just eyeballing it (as a career DD that's been DDing for the past 5-6 years and having tested many equip setups for Dragoon and Blue Mage, "eyeballing it" comes damn easy, and is fairly accurate by this point). I'll see what I can do with it when I put the final touches on my DD/Hybrid set and take it for a test run. If I don't like the results, Kujata's AH is stable enough that I don't lose too much for "test drives."

Since I play during Japanese prime, it'll be interesting to try to do this; many Japanese are rather conservative when partying, even in this day and age. :huh:

[IfritnoItazura]

One of the problem I've encountered while trying hybrid PLD was that at times I was hit so hard, the mages all started cure dumping. That usually killed the exp chain. Following that, the healer would get worried, and want to keep my HP topped off, making tanking difficult, not to mention wasting MP.

Personally, I had a very uneven history with hybrid tanking; sometimes worked nicely, but usually did not. I now think it's a bit more involved than just picking the right target (level) and the right mindset and gears on the part of the PLD. It takes team effort to make it work, and generally parties are more used to working with a turtle PLD instead of a hybrid or DD one.

Party's MP flow is the key, I think. There's no point in attempting to do more damage if it ends up draining the MP and killing chains--even if that's not the fault of the PLD.

Start at turtle, and see how well the party chains. If moving to hybrid doesn't lower the chain number (or if it improves it), then it's good. Half an hour later, when the food wears off, then can make a decision to go full DD, stay at hybrid, or back to full turtle.

* * *

Though I've always brought the food and gears for it, I've never felt comfortable enough to go full DD on PLD. I'd always start at turtle, get to some degree of hybrid, then usually go back to nearly full turtle. Only once in a while did I stay in hybrid--never once made it to full DD gear/food.

Now that my PLD is 70 and I've added Joyeuse to my arsenal, things may be different. I'll find out when I find the time to go back leveling it. x_x;

[Armando]

Ugh. With all due respect, Lilith...Please. Don't. Eyeball. ; ; It never works. I've done a LOT of tests (shielding tests, counter rate tests, evasion tests, etc.) where I *think* the numbers are going one way, and then I count the results and do the math and they ended up being something totally different. I've been in plenty of parties where I thought my hit rate was really high, but it was really something like 70%. Human beings just aren't cut out for that, and if you're already biased in favor of Gluttony Sword that just makes any observations you make in the future a million times more flawed. I never trust ANYONE's observations, not even my own.

Gluttony is definitely an inferior weapon for damage. It's inferior even to NQ T.M. Espadon, and many times more so than T.M. Espadon +2 (which pretty much out-DPS's any weapon between 52 and 60, and is even better than the Lv.60 NQ Bastard Sword.) The Gluttony Sword's selling point is its damage reduction (+7 VIT), not its damage. But it's terribly weak at damage reduction so it's really obsolete even before you can use it.

You say you're unsure if it's worth doing the DD thing at 60. For the sake of reference, it was at 60 that I finally got my DD gear together, and I was pretty successful. The only time I really had to hold back was against Erucas, because they can take off 90%-100% of your HP in a single, early, unlucky Incinerate (yet people love them even though they'll have to cure bomb you every single goddamned fight) and we were overhunting them to boot.

Because you're still on the fence about this issue, I must emphasize that you need to give this a fair chance. And I say that because the first time you drop your Defense food in favor of Sushi, you'll get hit noticeably harder, and the numbers will alarm you. They sure scared me. But a couple of fights in I realized that despite the high damage numbers we were doing ok, and hate holding had become so easy it was almost unfair. And if you fail at it in one party, try again in another. The first party might not have been able to support you, but that doesn't mean many other parties can't.

One more thing. Like I said, the difference between a turtle tank and a DD PLD essentially comes down to Defense food VS Sushi. If your party can't handle sushi, then go back to defense food. But keep the DD gear. Haubergeon offers more than Gallant Surcoat ever will in an EXP party. +5% hit rate from double Woodsman Rings is worth more than anything +6 VIT can give you in the ring slots (although a Jelly Ring is a damned fine choice in the ring slot as well, especially when you're not all that comfortable with this yet, get one if you can.) High Breath Mantle offers nothing defensively so you don't lose anything but Enmity when using Amemet Mantle (and if you can eat sushi, enmity is the least of your worries.) Likewise, the ear slots offer very little, and you should be slapped for wearing anything other than Life Belt/Potent Belt at this point.

I follow an approach similar to Itazura's, except I don't go full turtle and then make the switch. Instead, I go one or two fights without food and see how the party does. If they hold up ok then I pop the sushi. If they're struggling, then I pop the defense food. In general, if your party has a RDM and a backup healer, that's all you need to stay alive. RDM + WHM is fantastic (Refresh AND double Flashing?!) RDM healing on its own probably won't fare so well. Also, if you have a BRD, you'll be capable of some truly impressive numbers. I had Bibiki parties where I hit the hit rate cap when partying with a BRD, I was hitting pretty hard and my Vorpals were doing 200-400 damage. Works great.

[LilithAngel]

Just got out of a party. kinda sleepy so I'mma just give the quick and dirty.

Ru'Aun Gardens.
Flamingo.

drk/war
rng/war
thf/nin
pld/war (me, dur)
rdm/whm
sch/rdm

All Japanese except me, of course, drk was the leader, spoke rather fluent English, so that made things easier. Since ToAU was full, we hit up sky.

Glut/Bastard
Iron Ram
Bibiki shell
Valk/AF
Chiv/Parade
Drone+Insomnia
Haub/AF
Sipahi/AF
Rajas+Uthalam
Knightly
Potent
Royal Kight's Breeches/AF
AF boots (those things are the pwnface)

Sole Sushi/Fish Miths

Dark Staff and Vermy on rest for mp. Now, needless to say, having both sets is great and all, but the thing I noticed on both sets, and yes, I eyeballed it, because it takes all of about 2 seconds to go back and look, was that I hit for 0 about 8 out of every 10 hits that actually connected. On both Turtle and DD modes, both miths and sushi. TP gain didn't go up enough to matter, Damage and hit rates didn't go up enough to mater, don't give me this "don't eyeball" crap, I can see perfectly fine when I went back and looked at the chat logs that for this particular party, my best bet was to go Turtle.

Now, that being said, I'm certainly not going to base the concept off of one party, but so far, I'm not yet convinced one way or another. The damage wasn't what presented a problem, it was the party. This party just wasn't set up to handle a DD-esque Paladin this time around, but perhaps I'll get another shot tomorrow. Unfortunately, without any Corsair or Bard support, we weren't doing all that well (only about 6-7k/hr at best). I ended up about 1.1k short of my tnl.... That's a Campaign fight or two for me.

I've got my Amemet +1 on me ready to go; just gotta ding those levels. I'm wanting this to work, I really do, mainly cuz I want the Hauby to justify its place in my inventory. I'll also try out other swords, but I'll still hold onto Glut; as far as I'm concerned, it's a key piece of a turtle build, and a good solid 22+ VIT to go with my def does show a extremely noticeable improvement still at this level. I haven't hit that point (or even slope) of diminished returns yet, so no point in knocking it just yet.

Armando, I respect your opinion (hell, I asked for it. I don't ask for the opinion of people I don't respect). I know you're the type of guy that needs the hard numbers as proof of one thing or another. I'm not. I can just look and see what I'm needing to see and I'll pretty much be right. I've parsed quite a few fights myself, and wasn't the least bit surprised to know that my "eyeballing" was damn near accurate to what the parses were telling me.

What I saw tonight was rather odd in comparison to what you and Itazura were telling me; swinging for 0 or missing often, either build, and the times I did hit for damage, it was fluctuating between 5-17/20. On both full turtle, and DD. That tells me one thing: we were overcamping. The fights took way too long, and I was taking too much damage, even in turtle build. I don't need a parse to tell me that.

[Celeal]

Just got out of a party. kinda sleepy so I'mma just give the quick and dirty.

Ru'Aun Gardens.
Flamingo.

drk/war
rng/war
thf/nin
pld/war (me, dur)
rdm/whm
sch/rdm

All Japanese except me, of course, drk was the leader, spoke rather fluent English, so that made things easier. Since ToAU was full, we hit up sky.

Glut/Bastard
Iron Ram
Bibiki shell
Valk/AF
Chiv/Parade
Drone+Insomnia
Haub/AF
Sipahi/AF
Rajas+Uthalam
Knightly
Potent
Royal Kight's Breeches/AF
AF boots (those things are the pwnface)

Sole Sushi/Fish Miths

Dark Staff and Vermy on rest for mp. Now, needless to say, having both sets is great and all, but the thing I noticed on both sets, and yes, I eyeballed it, because it takes all of about 2 seconds to go back and look, was that I hit for 0 about 8 out of every 10 hits that actually connected. On both Turtle and DD modes, both miths and sushi. TP gain didn't go up enough to matter, Damage and hit rates didn't go up enough to mater, don't give me this "don't eyeball" crap, I can see perfectly fine when I went back and looked at the chat logs that for this particular party, my best bet was to go Turtle.

Now, that being said, I'm certainly not going to base the concept off of one party, but so far, I'm not yet convinced one way or another. The damage wasn't what presented a problem, it was the party. This party just wasn't set up to handle a DD-esque Paladin this time around, but perhaps I'll get another shot tomorrow. Unfortunately, without any Corsair or Bard support, we weren't doing all that well (only about 6-7k/hr at best). I ended up about 1.1k short of my tnl.... That's a Campaign fight or two for me.

I've got my Amemet +1 on me ready to go; just gotta ding those levels. I'm wanting this to work, I really do, mainly cuz I want the Hauby to justify its place in my inventory. I'll also try out other swords, but I'll still hold onto Glut; as far as I'm concerned, it's a key piece of a turtle build, and a good solid 22+ VIT to go with my def does show a extremely noticeable improvement still at this level. I haven't hit that point (or even slope) of diminished returns yet, so no point in knocking it just yet.

Armando, I respect your opinion (hell, I asked for it. I don't ask for the opinion of people I don't respect). I know you're the type of guy that needs the hard numbers as proof of one thing or another. I'm not. I can just look and see what I'm needing to see and I'll pretty much be right. I've parsed quite a few fights myself, and wasn't the least bit surprised to know that my "eyeballing" was damn near accurate to what the parses were telling me.

What I saw tonight was rather odd in comparison to what you and Itazura were telling me; swinging for 0 or missing often, either build, and the times I did hit for damage, it was fluctuating between 5-17/20. On both full turtle, and DD. That tells me one thing: we were overcamping. The fights took way too long, and I was taking too much damage, even in turtle build. I don't need a parse to tell me that.

IMHO, that camp + party setup + gear does not work with sushi: You need to find the balance. I am surprise that no one got KO-ed ^^; If I am tanking (as Hybrid-DD) with your gear in that situation, I would use attack food (like meat, coeurl sub, or rice drumpling), turn on/off Defender accordingly. Keep AF head, AF gloves, AF pants and AF feet full time, squeeze in the Hauby and acc+ gear in the rest of the slot, in a logical manner. If your HP% is not high enough to activate the latent effect of Parade Gorget for long time, make macro to swap in/out acc+ neck gear.

Note:
As I mentioned in the previous post, the duration of each battle is the key of Hybrid PLD tank. Since your camp is outside of ToAU, your party can setup Sidewinder/Slut Shot -> Guillotine (Fragmentation) + MB from RDM + SCH [Wind or Thunder], and Sidewinder/Slut Shot -> Dancing Edge (Distortion) + MB from RDM + SCH [Ice or Water]. Guillotine -> Sidewinder/Slut Shot (Induration - Ice) works too if switching element of MB is too confusing.

If the party is not pushing the limit of damage output, there is no reason for using Hybrid PLD tank. (Increase the hate threshold in the expensive of damage taken, for nothing... which is not good)

Added:
Glut Sword is fine for pure defensive tanking, or if you want to trade off a bit of damage output with VIT+7 at your level range.

[LilithAngel]

Yeah, I ended up deciding to stay Turtle in that party after a while. And yeah, someone did die, twice (I'll give you three guesses as to who it was, but I'll give you a hint: Soul Eater is pretty annoying...). I don't bother trying to save Darwin Award winners like that, but the Ranger at least waited until the mob was 50% before he let off his Sidewinders. If he somehow managed to get hate after that, then yar, I tossed him the occasional Cover (he didn't need it but mebbie twice). The Thief at least knew what he was doing, too. He put that Assassin trait to good use.

Oh well, I'll try again after work today. Hopefully I'll have the energy to do so after a long ass 12 hour shift of launching jets. In the snow. :wasted:

[IfritnoItazura]

I don't agree (yet) with Armando's "always tank in DD gear" statement, but he's definitely right about eyeballing.

Human beings have tendency to see what they want to find instead of what is there; the harder they stare, the less connection the observations have to the reality of the data.

[Mog]

Puppetmaster is a good choice for about all jobs. /nod