I saw something posted in that "wish list" thread for job adjustments, but instead of derailing the whole topic I decided to post a new thread for you people to discuss in.




WHM - Give them Refresh, just do it. Its White Magic, fuck what RDMs think

At first I was going to respond to this with, "Why does Red Mage get Refresh at all? Just give it to White Mage." But by then I had already realized the answer. SE intended for Red Mage to be a fighter mage. How are you suppose to get your MP back if you're up on the front line? And that is why Red Mage was given Refresh. However, because it can be used on every party member, people have abused this. SE made a mistake and instead of Red Mage more easily being able to participate in melee, they are forced to stand in the back row and cure. And now, ladies and gentlemen, I may have found a solution to this.

Make it so Refresh works the same way Warp does. Refresh becomes self casting only while Refresh II can be used on any party member. Refresh is given to both RDM and WHM, but only WHM gets Refresh II. This will allow SE's intended goal to still be achieved, but not without hindering RDMs to the point where they are forbidden from the front line. This also gives WHM a boost, as people have argued that they can't sustain themselves as well as a RDM can making them less favorable. This would basically push WHM to fill in the role that RDM has been and more freely open up RDM's options, possibly allowing them to return to the front line.

I've suggested this a while ago. Refresh being a self-spell only avaliable to whm at 41 AND rdm at 37, and avaliable as a subjob if you went /rdm.

And refresh II for longer duration and ability to cast on others, avaliable only to red mages, outside of subjob reach like level 41 ^^.

Would then, every mage sub rdm? ...

WHM could sub whatever they wanted as they would have their own refresh.

BLM would probably sub rdm, don't they already? at 75? like, most of the time? Like me? i only sub /whm when -na spells are a necessity and that hasnt happened too often now has it? When do manaburns need -na spells? (no i dont like manaburns)

SMN would most probably sub rdm and this would MAYBE overpower them as they could leave their avatars out all the time. Ahem... doesnt this already happen if they happen to have a bard or a rdm on their pt? I dont think it would be a problem. Maybe they would be really strong soloers at 75 if they got their own refresh. So what? What's the problem with that?

Who would really suffer from this? Red mages obviously. Who would need red mages if all mages now had their own refresh? This is where a serious job change would have to occur. Refresh II wouldnt stack with Refresh I, it would overwrite it, but make it 4mp per tick, and boom, everyone now wants to be a red mage. Oh wait that's already happening. And give a red mage some more love, up their sword skills to that of a Blue mage, give them more WS's, buff up the enspells and you have a really solid flexible job. LET THEM MELEE if they want to, but not to the point where you can TP burn with them. RDM truly shines when they get refresh and that will always be their strenght, and at endgame they can be awesome main healers, but what if we could do more while not hurting game mechanics? If WHM had refresh like its been suggested, they would be more sought out in the endgame scene, RDMs would be invited to refresh the blue mages and the paladins and others, and this would solve 2 things: WHM would get more invites and RDM would finally be able to do more than main healing at endgame. Win win situation.

Now, other things would be broken, you could solo as a DD/rdm pretty well, couldnt you? Like.. as if you subbed DNC!... I see monks ninjas and dark knights and samurais soloing not just for exp but BCNMs and NMs too. How much would /rdm refresh really break the game? DNC already broke anything that was left unbroken in that subject.

ps. Oh btw. Refresh II should be really MP costy, like 70mp. I havent done the maths but it should be costy enough so that refreshing 4 people would seriously break the ability for a red mage to main heal aswell as refresh everyone. Bye bye Pinkmage, hello flex-o-mage.

I am a RDM and a BLM, I can't say I have much experience in RDM endgame as my RDM is lv71, so this is all based on my own view of things, I cant say how much any of this would affect HNM and all those other endgame activities as i dont have much experience in that sort of thing, so go easy on me, or ill murder a kitten with a sharp object ^.^

Ladies and Gentleman you have just killed Red Mage.

I like Balfree's idea... giving whm Refresh II would honestly put RDM out of a job.

Subable refresh or giving whm the spell kills red mage in an instant. No more merit parties, no spot in alliances it would make Red Mage a solo job only.

I specifically addressed that issue on my post, Sevv.

Even if what i suggested isnt the best choice, there has to be some other option.

You may ask, Why do all this? isnt it fine the way it is?

I absolutely despise having to rest for mp, IT MAKES MY MAGE JOB BORING. And RDM needs a fix at endgame to stop being a cure bot, not that i personally mind main healing as RDM, i actually like it, but it'd be nice to be a flexible job like its supposed to be, and at endgame there isnt much anything else other than cure and refresh i'm afraid.

The big issue around all this is that FFXI wasnt made with a refresh 2 in mind and all these huge almost unthinkable changes to the game... it would have to be a massive overhaul of the whole battle system and mob strenght to keep things balanced.

Not that they have done a think to stop BLU soloing imps, which i find somewhat game-breaking.

The big issue around all this is that FFXI wasnt made with a refresh 2 in mind and all these huge almost unthinkable changes to the game... it would have to be a massive overhaul of the whole battle system and mob strenght to keep things balanced.
It's a lot of work to make RDM less desirable in exp/merit parties, from my perspective.

If a BLM has Refresh and Cure III from RDM, what's keeping merit parties from asking it to stop casting nukes and main heal instead? While some BLMs (and SMNs) wouldn't mind, those proposed changes would create more reasons for "BLM curebot" (and "SMN curebot"). Though it's true that those two jobs can use a dose of popularity in "normal" parties, this doesn't sound like the right way to go.

The reason why merit parties can get away with one RDM and one BRD (or COR) for good exp--sometimes, even with just one RDM and no other mage or support is workable--is that the targeted monsters are not dangerous enough. I've suggested massive overhaul to many different monsters before, but thinking back, that's a lot of adjustments. Large number of changes means a lot of testing and tweaking before they can go live, resulting in a very long time to wait even if S-E would commit to such course of action.

A better idea may be to lower the amount of exp earned from T-VT creatures while hiking the amount from IT, so players would have the incentive fight higher level monsters and work out new strategies and party configurations to get 15k+/hour.

Higher level monsters means more danger, thus would make sense to have more than one major source of curing in party. (Would make RDM enfeebs more worthwhile, too, so RDM would have another reason to rely on another mage or DNC for additional cures.)

Who knows? Maybe fighting ITs would mean a return to SC+MB, too.

Not that they have done a think to stop BLU soloing imps, which i find somewhat game-breaking.
Imps are broken; too little HP is just too tempting, and too easy.

I absolutely despise having to rest for mp, IT MAKES MY MAGE JOB BORING. And RDM needs a fix at endgame to stop being a cure bot, not that i personally mind main healing as RDM, i actually like it, but it'd be nice to be a flexible job like its supposed to be, and at endgame there isnt much anything else other than cure and refresh i'm afraid.
That's contrary to my endgame experience so far. (Dynamis, Sea NM, Limbus, Sky gods, one minor land HNM, one minor ToAU HNM.) There's a lot of Refresh involved, but only supplemental curing--I don't have the MP for much more than that. See below:
I've been asked to main heal only once in the last two month in anything which can be called "endgame", I think. (Unless merit party counts.) The LS's I'm in have plenty of WHMs, though, and plenty of RDMs. My role is some combination of crowd control, Refresh (they toss me in all MP parties a lot), enfeebling, and sometimes Phalanx II for the more dicey fights for 99% of the situation, so far--what I do most of the time do not leave much MP to cure, to be honest. Heck, WHMs frequently use Devotion to keep me going.
I should amend that I do main heal during Assault runs--but Assaults can be level capped as an option, and the ones we do are rather easy, so I'm hesitant to classify it as "endgame".

Don't mind main healing at all, as long as it's within my ability.

Oh, and "pink mage" in WS spam party doesn't involve all that much Refresh--it's mostly Haste, with some occasional cure dumping when the melees aren't bouncing the monsters well.

RDM needs a fix at endgame to stop being a cure bot
Endgame is more then just meriting.

Let's look at the forms of Refresh for a second.

Refresh - level 41
Ballad I - level 25
Ballad II - level 55
Evoker's Roll - 40

One is actually under sub level, the other three are not. Ballad I is actually adequate for the level BRD gets it. Kind of intentional placing.

Refresh, Convert and Haste were given to RDM when SE realized "Holy Crap, no one invites RDMs" but Refresh wasn't the only thing RDM was given. Haste and Convert were also given to RDM and are a rather signifigant reasons and Covert has also been why RDM has so much MP endurance.

If WHM got Refresh, would RDMs be out of a job? No, BAD RDMs would be out of a job. They'd quit because they think Refresh defines thier invites. Good RDMs can make use of Refresh and not have to Convert terribly often.

As for Refresh II - completely unneccesary, unless it was just given a higher duration. No other job save for BRD has a second tier or refresh and that second tier puts them fairly even with RDM. COR's refresh isn't consistant, but averages 2 or 3 and if they're lucky and get 11, they get 4 MP a tick, add one more MP a tick IF a SMN is in PT. COR as the strongest duration of the three types of refresh, but its potency varies.

Subbable Refresh - Awful Idea. Keep it 38+ no matter what. For the level it comes at, Ballad I is more than adequate for refresh purposes and passable if you need the refresh that badly.

Finally, I didn't make the comment for the sake of the "magical swordsman" nonsense that's been floating around with RDM lately - Espells are still a joke and pretty pitiful. I stated it because RDM has a hideous advantage over WHM for invites thanks to Refresh and Convert. Give WHM Refresh, let RDM keep convert. Good RDMs don't need to covert each time its up, but its still useful to have and a great exclusive for RDM.

I don't think many more Refresh-type abilites need to be passed around, especially now that we have a healer-type class that can cure with TP and its a pretty damn good sub for melee jobs. That helps a load on the mage side or things. I would ask SE to fix Aspir Samba so it always siphons MP, though, its kinda silly that we finally get another type of MP restoration that would be really good for frontliners, yet it only works on certain mobs.

yea i must admit that none of this is actually necessary, just a personal want more than anything

also... quoting myself:

I can't say I have much experience in RDM endgame as my RDM is lv71, so this is all based on my own view of things, I cant say how much any of this would affect HNM and all those other endgame activities as i dont have much experience in that sort of thing, so go easy on me, or ill murder a kitten with a sharp object ^.^

i am now skinning a kitten for dinner

THANKS TO YOU

As long as it isn't my mithra, skin any kittens you want. :P

Finally, I didn't make the comment for the sake of the "magical swordsman" nonsense that's been floating around with S-E forever

FTFY

But I don't care what you made your post for the sake for, it was a good post.

But I like the OP better: genius.

BLM would probably sub rdm, don't they already? at 75? like, most of the time? Like me? i only sub /whm when -na spells are a necessity and that hasnt happened too often now has it? When do manaburns need -na spells? (no i dont like manaburns)

SMN would most probably sub rdm and this would MAYBE overpower them as they could leave their avatars out all the time. Ahem... doesnt this already happen if they happen to have a bard or a rdm on their pt? I dont think it would be a problem. Maybe they would be really strong soloers at 75 if they got their own refresh. So what? What's the problem with that?I actually like this idea. True, one of RDM's key abilities is Refresh, but keep in mind that Paladins, Blue Mages, and other magic-using jobs will still want Refresh from either Ballad or Refresh II or Evoker's Roll. And you critics who say "Nobody will invite RDM/BRD/COR anymore!" you are forgetting that RDM also gets Haste, will be able to put out decent damage, and still is the best enfeebler in the game. Not to mention, this will push RDM and COR to the mage-side of the spectrum, and let BRDs use their wide array fo melee buffs.
Imps are broken; too little HP is just too tempting, and too easy. THANK YOU!!!

Giving several jobs a similar ability would cause some of the jobs to lose their original intent and flavor, so to speak. I'm pretty much against any other job getting refresh other than the ones that have it right now. When you take a look at their skill levels, it is clearly seen that White Mages specialize in curing, Black Mages on magic damage, and Red Mages specialize in enhancing and enfeebling. Also, Refresh may be white magic, but dispel is black magic, and I don't see any Black Mages casting it.

Besides, White Mage has more stuff to do than cast buffs on everyone in sight every 2 seconds. Why else do you think most Red Mages typically don't like to main heal?

Ladies and Gentleman you have just killed Red Mage.
How has your "fighter mage" experience been on Red Mage?

True it does drastically change the way things work now and probably the reason why some people have leveled Red Mage, but this would basically "set things right" to the way things were intended. (Don't forgot about those "front line spells" SE was talking about.) Because the community has adapted, however, this change may not be acceptable.

As for Refresh II - completely unneccesary, unless it was just given a higher duration. No other job save for BRD has a second tier or refresh and that second tier puts them fairly even with RDM. COR's refresh isn't consistant, but averages 2 or 3 and if they're lucky and get 11, they get 4 MP a tick, add one more MP a tick IF a SMN is in PT. COR as the strongest duration of the three types of refresh, but its potency varies.
Um, I'm not sure if you understand. Refresh II would be what Refresh is now, so are you saying that Refresh, as it is now, is completely unneccesary?

I'd rather go the line of Refresh as 41 for whm, 38rdm and Refresh II 61 rdm. Where Refresh cast timers were changed to that of Phalanx, and Refresh II that off the current, before applying fast cast with af hat.

Enspells. Dagger onry. On day of en-element, generally see 18-22 dmg at best.

A tier 2 starting at 60 with a new one every other level to do a set amount based on your dmg, lets say, 50% then add in MAB, weather and day to max it out, even with sword spell gear, to 75% of your hit.

Back to invites if whm were to get Refresh. Simple, add job traits that'll improve that Jack of all trades status. Converse MP, Auto Refresh, Sheild Mastery, Attack Bonus, Double Attack, Tripple Attack, Accuracy Bonus, Defense Bonus. All being add above level 40.

Also, if its not that hard, why not new Job Abilities. Lets say...,

Sword Bash. Requires Sword. Deals damage and stuns target.
Sword Mastery. Requires Sword. Next hit will be considered Magic, and damage dealt will be converted to MP.
Dagger Slash. Requires Dagger. Target receives Amnesia.
Dagger Master. Requires Dagger. Next hit will be considered Magic, and damage dealt will be converted to MP.

Too much? Maybe. But its a thought.

It doesn't matter what they would do to any job, its not SE thats putting the jobs into the positions they are in, its the players. Everyone wants quick and fast exp and finds the most effcient way to do it even if it means bastardizing a job to achieve it. So while you may think you are "fixing" a job, the player base will adjust to the fix and just ruin another job and we'll be right back here again. It's a never ending ordeal.

If mages can't get Refresh from a subjob, thats fine. But in their absence we need much better Conserve MP. Without Refresh, Mages are hindered much, much more then Melee are without Haste. A higher Conserve MP would at least put them on the same tier.

I'd rather go the line of Refresh as 41 for whm, 38rdm and Refresh II 61 rdm. Where Refresh cast timers were changed to that of Phalanx, and Refresh II that off the current, before applying fast cast with af hat.
From the sound of that it would basically be the same as it is now with Red Mage having Refresh but given White Mage self Refesh. The goal of this was not to give White Mage Refresh, but to make Red Mage not as heavily restricted to the back line without giving up an essential spell, giving it to White Mage instead.
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It doesn't matter what they would do to any job, its not SE thats putting the jobs into the positions they are in, its the players. Everyone wants quick and fast exp and finds the most effcient way to do it even if it means bastardizing a job to achieve it. So while you may think you are "fixing" a job, the player base will adjust to the fix and just ruin another job and we'll be right back here again. It's a never ending ordeal.
The fact is there are many Red Mages out there that dislike being forced into the back line. Now with White Mage, when is this ever an issue? White Mage has no place in melee and this is an acceptable concept for them.

To put it simple, the idea of Red Mage without Refresh is inconceivable. You could say "no more merit parties, no spot in alliances" but this is not true. Surely if you take away a job's essential ability it becomes overlooked, but Red Mage does have DD capabilities, and SE seems to being pushing to improve that aspect of the job.

Ok I am gonna get into this because I have skipped the last what 6 red mage melee threads, but hell I will get into this.


On the giving whm refresh I a single target spell:

Congrats you have just made leveling Red Mage until atleast 61, where they are now only stand out for multiple mage parties, even then they now play second fiddle to bard. Taking the current ability and moving into twenty levels later, just takes away so many more invites. Now if you were to even given this to a White Mage, your now limiting Red Mage invites even more. I don't know who would invite a Red Mage over a White Mage if they can cast refresh on themselves. They are better healers and now with even better mp management. The only thing that stands out from a Red Mage is the cool ability convert, which just is not enough to keep the job alive any where how it is now.

On the Red Mage dd invites. Ok do you know how many melee job there are? Good luck picking up invites here, you all over estimate your damage out put. Yes Red Mages can swing a sword or a dagger at a mob, white mages can swing a club at mobs 2. This doesn't mean it is worth the party slot. "But S-E wanted them to be a battle mage", guess what they are you have a decent sword skill. They can DD but it is not efficent to waste the slot by Red Mage DD. If you want to dd, you can solo or make your own party, but that doesn't mean you have to change the job in order to DD.

If you want to try and say you can put out this amazing damage I will be willing to parse yall on my drg, I will even use a love halbred.

If WHM got Refresh, would RDMs be out of a job? No, BAD RDMs would be out of a job. They'd quit because they think Refresh defines thier invites. Unfortunately it does. Its not the only thing RDM's can do by far but its all most people ever specifically invite a RDM for. WHM's can cure and haste, BLM can nuke better and any RDM that melee's risks being kicked. Few people care about debuffs especially in the TP burn parties, mobs die so fast you barely have time to cast then never mind them actually having some effect. Even when you do debuff there's only really Gravity and Dispel that aren't given to either WHM or BLM. Not that BLM get many invite at the moment anyway...

I have actually been told in a party when I was levelling RDM that all I needed was 2 macros. 1 for refresh and 1 for haste and the other members would handle everything else. Luckily those people died a few minutes later when they pulled 2 mobs and wouldn't disengage on one in order for me to sleep it, they said they were going to solo it while the rest of the party fought the other one. It was an IT mob so they died pretty quick.

As BBQ said on the Job Wishlist thread:

It wouldn't put Red Mage out of a job. Just the bad ones.

You completely forget that the main selling point of Red Mages in FFXI is their Enfeebling. All the other stuff about Curing, Hasting, DDing: all stuff to be done on the side at the appropriate times.

As such, Red Mage has two primary problems later in the game: resists, and busy-ness. This thread's whole idea is to reduce the Red Mage's busy-ness, so they can get back to focusing on Enfeebling and other stuff, as needed.

The only problem that's left is the resisting issue. In the Job Wishlist thread, it was proposed to give Red Mage traits of Magic Accuracy Bonus to help make their Enfeebles more worthwhile later on in the game, much in the same way Black Mage get Magic Attack Bonus early on to give them more impressive nukes. I'm personally a proponent of giving Enspells another use: amplifying spells with your Enspell'd weapon in a manner similar to the Elemental Staves, thus serving a double purpose of reducing resists at any time to a Red Mage's whim, and reducing dependancy on those wretched Elemental Staves, thus allowing a Red Mage to keep their Sword/Dagger out at all times.

To reduce a Red Mage's busy-ness, I also proposed the legendary Red Mage Ability Doublecast. Red Mage has a lot of spells on its plate to cast as is, so occasionally insta-casting every other spell will definitely help a lot. This is especially useful considering S-E is going to add even more spells in an attempt to get Red Mages to go on the frontline (at least occasionally).

And, speaking of which, didn't you get the memo? S-E still intends for Red Mages to frontline (at least sometimes), and right now, their looking at giving us more spells to do that! While i'm not exactly a fan of the "even more spells to cast" approach, it still shows that S-E may still yet have an idea with what they're doing with their long-neglected job.

Yellow mage obtains a YM's Relic Tabard +3.
YM wins the thread with that post imo.

In before the

/Ma "Barspell" <me>
/wait 1
/Ma "Long Spell cast" <t>

To break double cast

Your point? That would just be using Doublecast intelligently. I don't see anything broken about it. Especially since it has no effect on recasts.

All it can really do is give Red Mages with a lot on their plate an occasional break.

Going back over the thread:

If you're going to give the ability to melee uninterrupted by spellcasting, one and only one job deserves such an ability- Paladin. Damage is part of the tanking equation, part of how one keeps hate, spells staggering weapon delay gets in the way a bit.

And if one RDM utters the word "Refreshga" I will strangle them >:O

And if one RDM utters the word "Refreshga" I will strangle them >:O

I will actually join you in the strangling.

As someone who has both RDM and WHM to 75 I disagree with the OP. I do not want my own Refresh on WHM, and I do not want to get a secondary Refresh II spell on RDM. I happen to like things the way they are.

That does bring up a new problem though: SCH/RDM...

As someone who has both RDM and WHM to 75 I disagree with the OP. I do not want my own Refresh on WHM, and I do not want to get a secondary Refresh II spell on RDM. I happen to like things the way they are.
Secondary Refresh on WHM...but point taken.

That does bring up a new problem though: SCH/RDM...

Yeah, make Refresh subbable and, well, Accession happens to affect Enhancing magic by converting it to AoE. Then you have a mage that can do everything RDM can do minus convert and fun solo tricks, but with AoE Refresh. Plus, SCH cuts corners on spell cost

There is another option....
Remove all refresh spells from the game!
<-<;

There is another option....
Remove all refresh spells from the game!
<-<;

Congrats you just killed FFXI, go akashimo just need to kill rl and you win! =D

Using the current duration of Refresh and the current recharge for Stratagems, SCH wouldn't be able do full-time Refreshra. Doesn't seem that useful to me. Whoever has the non-self-target Refresh would get priority over SCH/RDM. Whether that's WHM or RDM, those jobs have higher skill and a better selection of abilities. Perhaps in mana-burn...

Maybe not Refresh II...keep on that aspect as it is.

But why not give WHM a self only Refresh spell? (insert name here) maybe not as powerfull as Refresh but 2MP/tic would be nice.combined with some "Refresh gear+Sanction+/SMN" that would give us 5MP/tic wich is what PLDs get with Sanction and Refresh (6MP/tic when using Parade Gorget and with 90% HP)so that would not break RDM invites at 41+ and will help WHM cure more eficently with out a Refresher...that would make WHM get more invites and RDM will still get invites to Refresh PLDs BLUs BLMs and SMNs imo.

or maybe just give WHM Auto Refresh I and Auto Refresh II...(40 and 60)

i dont know but maybe that would work and i would love self Refresh with my WHM :p

Well in that case it would be used on an "as it's up" basis, much like when I Divine Seal + Erase. It's nice when it's up, and when it's not I just do single target like always.

As BBQ said on the Job Wishlist thread:

It wouldn't put Red Mage out of a job. Just the bad ones.

You completely forget that the main selling point of Red Mages in FFXI is their Enfeebling. All the other stuff about Curing, Hasting, DDing: all stuff to be done on the side at the appropriate times.
Have you played RDM? Lately? Enfeebling is a joke now at higher levels. Ooh, I can make a monster take 1 less swing in its 30 seconds of life (that would only have hit an utsusemi shadow anyway)! Yeah, I really want to invite *that* job over another WAR/NIN.

RDM and WHM both have haste, both have cures up to IV, both can have most status cures and Erase (if the RDM is /WHM). WHM also has better curagas, higher tier regens and raise, cure V, stronger protectra and shellra, and free choice of SJ (so *at least* your choice of light arts, conserve mp or auto-refresh); RDM has refresh, fast cast and convert. And convert is only once per 10 minutes, so basically, RDM has refresh and fast cast. It doesn't take a genius to see that if you take away refresh, RDM has nothing to make them worth inviting to a meleeburn. So as long as meleeburns are the only party style that makes competitive exp/hr...

Parties that are fighting Ts (and honorary VTs that don't fight any harder than Ts) don't need an enfeebler, so until Itaz's suggestion is implemented, enfeebling will stay pointless (in exp; there's plenty of other content where it's already worthwhile).
As such, Red Mage has two primary problems later in the game: resists, and busy-ness. This thread's whole idea is to reduce the Red Mage's busy-ness, so they can get back to focusing on Enfeebling and other stuff, as needed.
Yeah, reduce their busy-ness by making sure they don't have any party members to buff.

Resists are only an issue on HNM and imps (and ahriman, but nobody fights them). Anything else you can stick any enfeeble you want nearly 100% after staves and AF. But it doesn't matter because common exp/merit mobs will die before the enfeeble has any significant effect. Even BLMs' magic is just a minor nuisance when they have 30 seconds to live and will probably be interrupted by a Rampage anyway.
And, speaking of which, didn't you get the memo? S-E still intends for Red Mages to frontline (at least sometimes), and right now, their looking at giving us more spells to do that! While i'm not exactly a fan of the "even more spells to cast" approach, it still shows that S-E may still yet have an idea with what they're doing with their long-neglected job.
RDM is fine; if you want a melee mage, BLU is over that way (and if that isn't melee enough, DRK has even better melee and less magic). RDM *do* frontline sometimes - campaign, assault, besieged, soloing/small groups, etc. But lacking an A skill makes it not very effective to melee high-level enemies. That's fine, there are plenty of melee-focused jobs in the game. RDM *isn't one of them*, as you can tell by its skill caps (A+ in a magic skill, but no A weapons) and job abilities (fast cast and convert - both aimed at allowing them to use more magic).


If you really want to fix the problems with enfeebling and the healer role shrinking until half a party member can do it, Itazura nailed it on page one: change the exp system so players get better exp from more difficult mobs. RDM and WHM make a great team, if the monster isn't so weak that they're way more healing than you actually need and enfeebling is pointless. There's no reason to pit them against each other. DD-heavy zerg parties are what is killing WHM invite rate, not RDM's supposed superiority in the role.

Am I the only one here who doesn't run out of MP so fast that I need more Refreshes? If people knew how to properly and intelligently conserve their MP without having to rely on eight different jobs spamming Refresh on them and complaining whenever they're getting less than 6MP/tic, then this whole thread wouldn't even bloody exist.

Seriously, before Aht Urhgan we had only Refresh, Ballad, /SMN and Auto-Refresh gear - if you were extremely well geared and had one support class you could get 4MP/tic. And you could suit just fine with that if you used your head occasionally and didn't spam Cure V whenever a mob brushed past the tank and did 10 damage.

There's no reason to pit them against each other. DD-heavy zerg parties are what is killing WHM invite rate, not RDM's supposed superiority in the role.

RDM didn't just become the preferred healer as of ToA, they were the preferred healer before it. You are really stuck on things that center around the mechanics of ToA - I'll tell you right now that burn PTs existed before it and the same issues were prevalent then. There wasn't even an EXP bonus back then. Enfeebling was just as irrelevant to those burn parties then as it is now. RDM had the advantage over WHM even not just because of Refresh, but Refresh AND Convert.

And BRDs still had the tremendous invite advantage in those PTS. Rangers had that advantage, too, pre-nerf. WAR picked up where RNG left off pre-ToA.

People complained about RNGs, NINs and BLMs getting faster EXP than all the other jobs, about how unfair it was that no PT would leave Jeuno without one RNG or a BLM in the PT. Now, neither of those hardly gets an invite now, even though they still bring great damage.

People got what they wanted - they're doing what RNGs and BLMs did. They're no longer left out.

And now they bitch about that.

Hate to say it, but RDMs asked for it, too. You guys hopped right on whatever EXP gravy train you would find just like everyone else and dicked your roles for it.

Am I the only one here who doesn't run out of MP so fast that I need more Refreshes? If people knew how to properly and intelligently conserve their MP without having to rely on eight different jobs spamming Refresh on them and complaining whenever they're getting less than 6MP/tic, then this whole thread wouldn't even bloody exist.

Seriously, before Aht Urhgan we had only Refresh, Ballad, /SMN and Auto-Refresh gear - if you were extremely well geared and had one support class you could get 4MP/tic. And you could suit just fine with that if you used your head occasionally and didn't spam Cure V whenever a mob brushed past the tank and did 10 damage.

Before AU, you also got to rest.

Personally, no, I don't think WHM needs a self-Refresh, and they definitely don't need to steal our place as buffers. RDM cannot get by on Convert and enfeebling alone; heck, the reason why we got Refresh in the first place was because our invite rates sucked without it.

That being said, WHM needs some form of MP advantage beyond Regen spells. RDM has Refresh and Convert, SCH has Light Arts and Strategems, and SMN (who shouldn't even need to be part of this discussion, but people suck) has Auto-Refresh and a gigantic MP pool. I'm of the opinion that the most distinctly White Mage-y thing you could do to make WHM compete on ability to have MP would be to cut down spending through Cure Potency traits at 40+.

As for enabling RDM melee, I personally feel we shouldn't be all up-front all the time like BLU, but we should be set up such that it's an option. In practical terms, it isn't now except in soloing and the most marginal of special situations. The reaction to a RDM stabbing something shouldn't be laughter and a swift kick, it should be a discussion of which they need more, melee benefits or spell accuracy. It should be practical to do at all, not our new role in light of losing a key part of our identity.

Where would a Refresh II fit into this? If anywhere, as a self-only buff gained at 51 that gives 5 MP/tick or the like. Even then, such a spell would more likely be used just to power up backline RDM even further in a way it doesn't need. Therefore, I don't favor new Refresh spells. If anything, we should get some kind of ability to gain MP through meleeing (Aspir Samba would do fine if it weren't for the fact that it only works on some mobs) -- maybe a spell that eats 1 TP/tick and converts it into 3 MP. -- Pteryx

I agree 100% with everything Karinya has said.

As for melee burns, they were not as prevalant before ToAU. I got leveled 3 rdms to 75 before ToAU and the majority of my exp came from "traditional" exp pts all 3 times.

Like I said in my previous post, it doesn't matter what adjustment is made to any job. The issue is the player base and the attitude of getting the most exp in the least amount of time with as little effort as possible. We have bastardized the job so that we can do things as easy as possible and then get stuck in a role that a percentage don't like because of it. Since changnig the majority of player's attitudes is next to impossible (loldrg....STILL?) just accept the role we play and move on. If SE does an "adjustment" down the road, then we'll see how the player base will pervert that.

As for melee burns, they were not as prevalant before ToAU. I got leveled 3 rdms to 75 before ToAU and the majority of my exp came from "traditional" exp pts all 3 times.

Prevalence at that time is quite irrelevent, the problems with RDMs existed in those setups, too. Any RDM that got invited to these setups got invited for Refresh, Haste, Convert and invited as a healer only. Doesn't matter how you did it, it was done this way at the time you did it, too. I was a BRD and I took the burn PTs and was a nice guy and took the other ones as well.

When I started having complaints about burn PTs as a BRD, that was kinda when I also realized that if I continued my RDM past 65, I'd never enjoy it. Even the use of Elegy - while helpful - is more of a claim tool than an mob debuff in burn PTs. All these other spells RDM would mean nothing.

Instead of complaining about burn PTs, if you don't like your role in them - DO NOT TAKE BURN PT INVITES. But I seriously doubt many RDMs are that steadfast in resisting an invite that isn't to thier liking when the EXP is fast.

And I'll admit, when you have COR or BRD, unlike RDM, you have a lot more room to be shrewd about how you party. RDMs have competition these days from within thier own class. There's only room for one healer in a burn and its likely going to be a RDM.

Again, as I've said many, many times - if you don't like the PTs you get, then build your own PTs and find like-minded people to party with. Some people DO want SC/MB PTs and WILL go the older zones and fight IT++ to do them. Will you?

>.>

Boost WHM or nerf RDM enough, and you can start adding lots of neat and finally useful enfeebles to RDMs.

Currently, giving RDM enfeebles that rival the power of BRD buffs is a bad idea since they work with BRD all the time. But if you took away the capacity for a RDM to main heal at the same time as giving these powerful enfeebles... then they could end up filling a BRD's shoes. So that parties against tougher mobs (in a world where S-E fixes their exp tables) would typically use WHM + RDM or WHM + BRD. And low level hunting would probably still function with RDM + BRD, but you'd need some help on the frontline (PLD or BLU, namely).

I'm not sure any of what I just said is a good idea. I've just always liked the idea of RDM fulfilling BRD's role instead of WHM's.

IMHO, this may make exp. parties (non-merit) too easy.... We should also consider the option for inviting DNC, /DNC or /SCH to exp. parties too.

There is a way out of burn parties.
RDM/DRK and campaign.
Live it.
Love it.
Go emo souleater.

Where would a Refresh II fit into this? If anywhere, as a self-only buff gained at 51 that gives 5 MP/tick or the like. Even then, such a spell would more likely be used just to power up backline RDM even further in a way it doesn't need. Therefore, I don't favor new Refresh spells. If anything, we should get some kind of ability to gain MP through meleeing (Aspir Samba would do fine if it weren't for the fact that it only works on some mobs) -- maybe a spell that eats 1 TP/tick and converts it into 3 MP. -- Pteryx
I don't think Red Mage needs more Refresh. They already have Refresh, Covert, and anything else like Sanction, Ballad, etc. Unless Refresh was taken away from Red Mage altogether I don't see how this would be attractive to players.

Meh it was just a suggestion.

These are some sharp claws you guys always sport.

I'm definitely playing the game wrong. Level 54 BLM and I can count the number of times I've had Refresh cast on me on one hand :o

I don't think Red Mage needs more Refresh. They already have Refresh, Covert, and anything else like Sanction, Ballad, etc. Unless Refresh was taken away from Red Mage altogether I don't see how this would be attractive to players.

What a TP-into-MP conversion spell would do would be to give RDM a reason to melee. RDM melee is not worth it for the damage, but if it's worth it for some other reason, people will permit it. Additionally, as it stands now, meleeing has a negative impact on one's ability to gain MP, due to resting and meleeing being mutually exclusive (not that we get to rest much anymore, but old myths do die hard). This would turn it into a positive impact, so that if a RDM is meleeing they don't need to rest.

Basically, I'm discussing this sort of idea because... well, that's some of what the discussion is about -- the idea that Refresh was intended to free us up to melee. -- Pteryx

What a TP-into-MP conversion spell would do would be to give RDM a reason to melee. RDM melee is not worth it for the damage, but if it's worth it for some other reason, people will permit it. Additionally, as it stands now, meleeing has a negative impact on one's ability to gain MP, due to resting and meleeing being mutually exclusive (not that we get to rest much anymore, but old myths do die hard). This would turn it into a positive impact, so that if a RDM is meleeing they don't need to rest.

From what rdms have been saying here it's not the need to rest thats stopping rdm meleeing it's the fact that they never stop casting, ever. Giving rdm better mp endurance when they already have, by a huge margin, the best mp endurance in game isn't going to to help them melee as far as I can see it.

If SE ever gave better mp endurance to rdm I would screw the back line drama and start levelling tank or mp free melee jobs instead.

Basically, I'm discussing this sort of idea because... well, that's some of what the discussion is about -- the idea that Refresh was intended to free us up to melee. -- Pteryx

If it was so intended, it would have came with shorter cast and recast time, and be self-targeted only. Seems obvious that Refresh is meant to be used to help other party members' MP flow, and its cast and recast time meant to make it a heavy burden on the RDM--as in, it's a major part of a RDM's duty. Again, Refresh is designed to be a big part of the job, from the stand point of time.

The melee ability was there first, before Refresh and Convert, if I understand the history of RDM correctly. S-E decided that a magic swordsman wasn't special enough, and gave it tools to be a heavier spell caster.

* * *

The prohibition against RDM being in front at all is about using best practices. With casting a heavy casting load in a full party, it turns out melee is usually just a distraction with minimal benefit. (Fools are those who follow it religiously or discard it as "not what the description for RDM says!")

With a lighter casting load, the situation would change. Knowingly or not, many here suggest drastic changes to the spells and other jobs to achieve the goal of having enough time to melee.

Duo and Trio parties already allow that, though; after initial debuffs (sans staves since target isn't IT) and a few maintenance spells, a RDM would have the time to melee. It's in full parties fighting VT to IT++ that the spell cast load goes over the roof and staves become indispensable.

So, small groups, some colibri parties, Campaign Battle, soloing... RDM has the opportunity to use those melee skills, as is.

Rather than complaining about not able to melee, I encourage those who need the melee fix to find situation where it's welcomed--even needed. That's a much better idea than butchering up RDM and other jobs and making drastic changes just to force RDM to melee more.

* * *

I'm sorry many of you had false expectations because you misread S-E's job description for RDM: "These fighter-mages can utilize both black and white magic, as well as the arts of the sword."

The word is "can", not "always". No where in there says "arts of sword" is to be utilized in every exp party, either.

Take up Blue Mage if you want to be a fighter-mage who's always fighting with a sword (or two!). I have enough competition seeking merit party as is... :P

>.>

Boost WHM or nerf RDM enough, and you can start adding lots of neat and finally useful enfeebles to RDMs.

I think I'm in love.
______________________________
I'm sorry many of you had false expectations because you misread S-E's job description for RDM: "These fighter-mages can utilize both black and white magic, as well as the arts of the sword."

The word is "can", not "always". No where in there says "arts of sword" is to be utilized in every exp party, either.

That doesn't make it any less of a bait-and-switch.

MANUAL EDIT: Also, I can prove very easily that it is you who are interpreting it wrong in the first place, as S-E has very clearly stated their intent to put Red Mages on the frontline; maybe not for every single situation, but it is still, and always has been their intention with the job.
______________________________
Take up Blue Mage if you want to be a fighter-mage who's always fighting with a sword (or two!).

Also, am I the only one who is fed up with this "Go level BLU if you want a Melee Mage" response?

Also, am I the only one who is fed up with this "Go level BLU if you want a Melee Mage" response?


While I can see why you'd be fed up with it... I have to ask isn't it true though?

Maybe I'm misreading what you are all saying, but why should a Rdm be able to even come close to what a full up melee can do damage wise while subbing whm or some other magey subjob?

Rdm complain about not getting access to Vorpal Blade, well, sub Pld, Blu, War, or Drk and you've got it. Considering everything that Rdm gets, you should not be able to have access to one of the best sword WS without giving up something That something is going to most likely be your white mage subjob.

You have spells to nuke with, you have enspells to add to your damage, and you get gear that boosts your enspell damage. You are also only limited on the Magic Burst side of things by the number of SC that the party can make. Blue Mages have to wait 2 minutes between MBs.

Is that everything that a blue mage can do? Yup.

Can a blue mage do everything that a rdm can do? Nope.

Red Mage =! Blue Mage

Red Mage is more support oriented, Blue Mage is more DD oriented.

DD wise, Rdm is fine the way it is. IMO what I see alot of people wanting is a full up support Rdm with the DD abilities of Blue Mage, and that is just not fair and should not be asked for. You can tweak Rdm for more damage but you have to lose out on the usefulness of the /whm subjob. Or you can go for more party support but lose out on the DD subjob and abilities.

You cannot gear for both roles, why should you expect to?

Instead of complaining about burn PTs, if you don't like your role in them - DO NOT TAKE BURN PT INVITES. But I seriously doubt many RDMs are that steadfast in resisting an invite that isn't to thier liking when the EXP is fast.


FYI, I am not complaining about burn partys. I enjoy playing rdm in any situation, even a pt with slower exp in a non ToAU area. I just think the whole "whms should get a refresh spell" is silly. We, the players, bastardize the job and then whine, piss, and moan like a bunch of old women (oy, just hit myself between the eyes with that one huh? lol) about it.

While I can see why you'd be fed up with it... I have to ask isn't it true though?



I think its a hell of a valid point.

You cannot gear for both roles, why should you expect to?Because the pimp hat told us to.

I think its a hell of a valid point.


Care to elaborate, either in here or another thread, or point me towards a thread that has some good discussion on this issue?

As I see it now, I am not seeing anything from stopping a Rdm from slapping on some DD gear/food/sub/whatever and going out to DD, with the sole exception that they will not be able to manage healing duties, maybe be able to manage refresh duties, and maybe be able to handle a haste cycle.

I can't speak for anyone else, but I'd be more than happy with a good DD rdm in the party. But I will say that so long as people don't do SC, or exp on Colibri, then what I would percieve as a big chunk of Rdm's DD abilities have just gone down the drain.

Also, right now I'm seeing this as if Rdm want to be able to melee and do everything that they are currently doing, then they are asking to be able to have it all, which is a bit unfair to the other jobs.

(oy, just hit myself between the eyes with that one huh? lol)

:rofl:

Not even touching that one.

That doesn't make it any less of a bait-and-switch.

MANUAL EDIT: Also, I can prove very easily that it is you who are interpreting it wrong in the first place, as S-E has very clearly stated their intent to put Red Mages on the frontline; maybe not for every single situation, but it is still, and always has been their intention with the job.
So... You believe S-E's intention was for RDM to be up front in some situations, but not all... How is that different from what I described? What bait and switch?

I guess it'd be closer to the usage ratio if S-E had stated RDM is "A magic user who can take up the sword when needed," but the current description isn't wrong.

Also, am I the only one who is fed up with this "Go level BLU if you want a Melee Mage" response?
Don't know, but I know I'm fed up with people who complain so much about RDM's lackings, a job so versatile and wanted in much of the game.

I get plenty of use out of my Joyeuse, thank you very much; farmed 50k gil and almost 2k worth of limit points with it last night, for example. About to put it and other melee gear away in Mog Locker in a few minutes--and I'm happy to do so, since I'm going to do a few Assault run soon, and need the room for mage gear and loot. Flexibility is a good thing.

Thanks to RDM, I get to experience Assault, Dynamis, Sky, Sea, and Limbus. (Merit party, oddly enough, is a bit harder to come by.) I can farm EPs easily myself for seals and drops and a little limit points, unlike some other highly desired jobs. For soloing tough things, I have the option between toe-to-toe or kite-nuke. The list of good stuff just goes on and on.

Makes my eyes roll how unappreciative some RDMs are for all we have. Seriously, if melee'ing-100%-of-the-time mage floats your boat, BLU is that way. (BLU's a great deal of fun, too, I might add; wish I have the time to level it, but RDM is keeping me rather busy and entertained.)

Care to elaborate, either in here or another thread, or point me towards a thread that has some good discussion on this issue?
TGM was in agreement with you, I believe.

RDM: "These fighter-mages can utilize both black and white magic, as well as the arts of the sword."
WHM: "By using recovery spells, white mages can ensure a party's survival."
Your point? :P

WHM: "By using recovery spells, white mages can ensure a party's survival."
Your point? :P

How about yours? Just because someone can, doesn't mean they always will.

How about yours? Just because someone can, doesn't mean they always will.
Proven by the lolmelee WHMs who don't do anything to save your party's ass in the Dunes.

Maybe I don't belong in these discussions. I'm happy with RDM* the way it is, and enjoy all of the benefits the job provides. Apparently I'm an aberration. XD

*as well as most other jobs.

Maybe I don't belong in these discussions. I'm happy with RDM* the way it is, and enjoy all of the benefits the job provides. Apparently I'm an aberration. XD

*as well as most other jobs.
You're not the only one Murph, I like RDM as-is. While I wouldn't mind Enlight and Endark just because there's so many dark-based mobs out there, I don't think they're necessary (though they wouldn't be game-breaking, either) and I'm quite content with all RDM has to offer.

I do wish we got a few more Group II merits to play with, though. :/

Care to elaborate, either in here or another thread, or point me towards a thread that has some good discussion on this issue?




TGM was in agreement with you, I believe.

/em hides behind IfritnoItazura's leg...

/em peeks out and nods her head in agreement...

/em cries "Please don't beat me!!" to Vyuru!

Maybe I don't belong in these discussions. I'm happy with RDM* the way it is, and enjoy all of the benefits the job provides. Apparently I'm an aberration. XD

*as well as most other jobs.

You and me both Murphie!

/em sits down next to Murphie with a big bowl of hot buttered popcorn and a couple of beers.

/em sits down next to Murphie with a big bowl of hot buttered popcorn and a couple of beers.

<Murphie> I like where this is going!

^^;

Actually, after thinking about it a bit more, don't give a WHM Refresh.

Give them Regain.

Pixies are WHMs and Pixies get it. It would make WHMs much more attractive to the melee PTs and it would be an original spell to give to one job that doesn't presently exist in any job's spell line. Closest thing to it otherwise is Samurai Roll, which is just a Store TP buff (but still sexy).

Or give it to SCH, that works too. It could use another native enhancing magic.

Basically, I'm discussing this sort of idea because... well, that's some of what the discussion is about -- the idea that Refresh was intended to free us up to melee. -- Pteryx

If that was the intention, it failed horribly. The argument is better suited to Phantom Roll Recast and COR. What am I supposed to do with that whole minute in between? I can shoot my gun, dance a little jig or play curebot.

First two sound more fun and the second obseletes the third option in EXP/Merit now.

What is wrong with the way things Are? Now I know I have a long way to go as far as lvling RDM is conserned and by far am nowhere near capable of experiencing the endgame aspects of FFXI, but from A lvl 57 RDm stand point, besides all the wish list and hope for spells that would probably kill the job any way, I see nothing wrong with the way RDM is set up. If you add more to RDM ability it would take away from some of the other jobs that are meant to fufill those roles. RDM DD what the???? The only time I ever use my sword is when I solo or Duo. With all that goes on in a PTy I have enough to deal with having a Refresh/Haste cycle along with Enfeebling. Why waste the time trying to Melee when I get better use out of using my MP and Convert and help keep the EXP rolling in. As long as you got a pty that sticks to thier role in a pty you sohuld never run out of MP and be albe to keep the pty going.

WHM refesh?? why ? seriously, if anything sub a smn and you got auto refresh trait.

I am in agreeance with Murphie and other of the like that think RDM is fine where it is..... Do I think there are some spells that could use an upgade? Sure in a wish list situation wher nothing is considered and it all comes down to ....... this would be cool to have, but in an actual in-game practicallity Sense, Why? not needed?

Stopp complaining about DD and lvl another job. Never mind what SE writes on thier Website or literature about what RDM job description says. Play the job or don't IF you like RDM you would play it as is IMHO.

To be fair Dahc, the conversation isn't just about RDM. Also, you're in the best level range for RDM (in my opinion) right now. Some of my favorite times were during that 50-70ish level stretch. Your opinion may change when you get to 75. Then again, it might not.

I understand that but at to what cost whould A refesh for WHM and a refresh II be for the game play dynamic over all. I read through all the post and alot of what I am seeing is the "RDM can be front line again" type of thing. Why? isn't that why SE added BLU

But I understand the want for better spells, but why give better spells when they can just incoporate better job traits or more Job Abilites for both WHM as well as RDM

At the lvl 50 range for RDM I am truely digging it and I am finding I am coming into my own and becoming more comfortable with being able to do everything that is needed from A RDM. I turely hope that it doesn't change much after 70

Actually, after thinking about it a bit more, don't give a WHM Refresh.

Give them Regain.

Pixies are WHMs and Pixies get it. It would make WHMs much more attractive to the melee PTs and it would be an original spell to give to one job that doesn't presently exist in any job's spell line. Closest thing to it otherwise is Samurai Roll, which is just a Store TP buff (but still sexy).

Or give it to SCH, that works too. It could use another native enhancing magic.

That could be interesting, particularly as I find that WHM tends to have too little to do in a party. It wouldn't be totally out of line for SCH either, as one of their themes seems to be effect over time, but I'm less keen on giving them this as it'd make them play just that little bit more like RDM does and I'm hoping to see the two remain distinct.

If that was the intention, it failed horribly.

Oh, I totally agree with you there. Heck, I kinda doubt that was the real intent myself. -- Pteryx
______________________________
I understand that but at to what cost whould A refesh for WHM and a refresh II be for the game play dynamic over all. I read through all the post and alot of what I am seeing is the "RDM can be front line again" type of thing. Why? isn't that why SE added BLU

To be fair, it's not "front line again" so much as "front line at all ever like the description of the job actually promised". I don't think RDM should be as dedicated a melee mage as BLU (and heck, I'm surprised that SE honestly thought we'd push BLU to the back lines with such effective melee-range spells). I do think it shouldn't be completely impractical and completely pointless for us to melee when we, too, are supposed to be "fighter-mages" who have "prowess with the sword" -- and when we have "jack of all trades" written on the can and stabbing stuff is one of the trades we're supposed to be OK at.

And I don't think screwing with Refreshes is wise either. -- Pteryx

At the lvl 50 range for RDM I am truely digging it and I am finding I am coming into my own and becoming more comfortable with being able to do everything that is needed from A RDM. I turely hope that it doesn't change much after 70How much it changes will depend a lot on what sort of activities you involve yourself in at that point. There are a lot of options for RDM, but if you limit yourself to only one kind of activity (such as Meripo, for instance) you may feel as though your wings have been clipped a bit.

To be fair, it's not "front line again" so much as "front line at all ever like the description of the job actually promised". I don't think RDM should be as dedicated a melee mage as BLU (and heck, I'm surprised that SE honestly thought we'd push BLU to the back lines with such effective melee-range spells). I do think it shouldn't be completely impractical and completely pointless for us to melee when we, too, are supposed to be "fighter-mages" who have "prowess with the sword" -- and when we have "jack of all trades" written on the can and stabbing stuff is one of the trades we're supposed to be OK at.

And I don't think screwing with Refreshes is wise either. -- Pteryx

Not saying that melee in different situations wouldn't be nice. I like to melee with my RDM as much as the next guy. But to what extent are you willing to put a pty at risk when it is not wanted nor needed when you got a DD heavy PTY. Melee is cool when it is accepted and it is definately a situational thing when in a pty. But to go from backline to DD in the front line I think that is getting to out of hand with the whole RDM melee issue.

And IMHO Refresh is fine like it is

Regain idea, I could dig that.
Same cost as refresh, maybe level. Yeah that might make me get back to back line healer rather than whm/nin in campaign.

Endark/Enlight.
Better idea, super version of dnc's endrain and enaspir
Endark, does half of your hit, converts to mp.
Enlight, does half of your hit, converts to hp.
Level 37 for both, and I'll bet ya blu, drk and pld would make rdm a sub of choice in meripo XD

But alais, given how much is talked here, no way we'd come with a concrete solution to the situation unless we just beefed up all ToAU mobs to spawn babies that make AV look like a walk in the park.

pld/rdm would be broken, the other 3 jobs lack an enhancing skill. At least, if it were tied to enhancing skill the way resists are for every other en-and spike effect. Hitting for 40 damage and getting 20 mp back would be more than broken for PLD... (in merits, at least) and I suppose the 9/10th resists would still be 1-5 mp/swing for the other jobs.

The beauty of the Sambas is that their acc isn't linked to a magic skill (I have a feeling their resist rate - "Magic accuracy" - is based off of the swinger's skill rating if not simply total physical accuracy). But that'd be a silly quality for a spell to have. Also, the sambas have 2 caps on their effect: the 1st is (damage dealt/2) and the 2nd is a value derived from the weapon's delay. You pretty much never hit the half-damage cap. Also, quite sure the additional effects of DNC don't do extra damage. I think you'd notice if everyone was doing an extra 20-50% damage. Plus, you don't proc the effect unless you hit for 0 or higher damage...

--------

RDMs are big on stamina... what if this went another direction and RDMs had to keep themselves from becoming exhausted. I'm thinking something similar to an automaton's Overload. But instead of a pet, it's the RDM themselves. And instead of becoming overloaded and being able to do nothing, it just continues to penalize your cast/recast times. So the more you nuke, the longer it takes to cast nukes. And so varying what you do would help to normalize your casting time.

I'm thinking something that takes a while to build up, but once it starts to become noticeable, begins ramping up quickly in effect. So you could still play healer in a pinch (against something hard enough to have to heal), and you could still become primary damage when low-manning something that just went phys-immune. But you wouldn't be able to keep these roles up full time. The idea is to make it harder to pigeonhole RDM into one and only one task...

Yet another idea that probably isn't a good one. Apparently, I just like to bastardize this topic. I'll excuse myself.

The idea is to make it harder to pigeonhole RDM into one and only one task...
So, you'd rather RDM be like... PUP? Not able to find a role?

"Guys, can you stop with the chaining? The cast time and recast time of everything has doubled." "Tell Jormy to stop shaking off Slow II--can't cast it again for another minute." "No more Refresh for you guys; recast is longer than duration now." "AFK 15 minutes to reset recast timer. Sorry!"

Going to be a bit selfish and say ◀No thanks.▶ >_>;

Unless your purpose is to make BRD (even) more popular? A least you can count on Ballads to always be available when you want to cast it. PLD will suffer again, too, with the single target Refresh messed up.


* * *

Regain?

As if SC+MB didn't have the last nail on its coffin, yet. Don't think TP Spam needs more love...

Want WHM to get more exp and merit parties? Nerf Utusemi, and adjust exp (lower VT-T exp, hike up IT exp). If substantial curing is needed, WHM will be wanted.

Not sure what can be done about SCH; it has a lot of potential (e.g Regen II-ga is a darn nifty trick, for example), but seems to be struggling to find an identity of its own. Good thing S-E is already working on that, so no need to fret too much now.

Take away the high cure skill from rdm, up enmity on cure 3 and 4, lower enmity down from errant, and that'll change some things dramatically.
Like, healing for rdms would be reduced to 200 native.
Enmity for cure 3 would be up to cure 4 and cure 4's to a voke and a half.

Take away the high cure skill from rdm, up enmity on cure 3 and 4, lower enmity down from errant, and that'll change some things dramatically.
Like, healing for rdms would be reduced to 200 native.
Enmity for cure 3 would be up to cure 4 and cure 4's to a voke and a half.
Between Regens, WHMs handle healing with a lot of Cure III's and a few Cure V's; poisoning Cure III for them is a bad idea.

This "adjustment" to Cure III/IV would also add to PLD's enmity generating ability more, possibly making PLDs trivially good at that aspect of tanking (and thus invalidating a lot of enmity gear).

Nerfing the Errant set isn't so hot, either; have a look at who use it the most heavily--all the mages (sans BLU), not just us RDMs. In fact, it'll hurt the pre-endgame/pre-Assault mages the most, who have little to no comparable alternatives in many slots.

* * *

The world doesn't revolve around RDMs, and doesn't revolve around RDM players who hate curing, either. :wasted: Have a care for how others (and the game) would suffer if your wish is granted...

Lets hear how you'd change healing so that its less desirable to have rdm play that role in meripo then. Cause I'm really running low on 'good' ideas.

Lets hear how you'd change healing so that its less desirable to have rdm play that role in meripo then. Cause I'm really running low on 'good' ideas.
No need to change healing at all.

I keep repeating it, but seems like very few people caught it: change the exp distribution to give players more incentives to fight tougher monsters. (This isn't my idea, BTW; I stole it from Karinya.) Fighting tougher things means WHM will be welcomed as main healer, or at least a good many more parties would use a co-healer in addition to the single RDM.

That'd be the major change; lower amount of exp from Tough to Very Tough, while hike up Incredibly Tough ones.

The advantage of this over other suggestions is that it doesn't touch rest of the game mechanism--which are largely working, all in all, and don't need to be put through the blender just make RDM cure less.

* * *

Additional changes to support it would be some nerfing of Utsusemi from /NIN (put Ichi at two images, and increase recast time for Ni a bit, for example), and fixing the obviously broken (i.e. frequently abused) monsters like Imp. Those and other tweaks and can be added if and when it's determined that the exp changes weren't sufficient.


* * *

I'm looking for that happy middle place, where WS spam parties can still work, albeit with more danger, and cannot double the exp/hour compared to more old fashioned (i.e. party with true tank, SC+MB) set ups.

WS spam party := higher exp/hour on average, but higher risk.
SC+MB party := lower (but still decent) exp/hour, but steady and safer.

I have to agree with Itazura. Those who want to nerf RDM's healing are only shooting the job in the foot.

What you really want (like Itazura already mentioned) is a reason to pick WHM over RDM as a main healer and for a RDM's main role to be so much more valuable relative to its other roles that it'd be a waste to have them do something else, much like it's currently a waste to have them or a WHM meleeing instead of casting =P

If enfeebling was critical to merit parties, things would be a whole lot different.

Oh god, not the "Nerf Healing Skill" argument again. Besides, we have a reversal for that argument now.

Scholar. You'd get an automatic B skill from it, the only thing that would change is you'd get out of status cures.

Between Regens, WHMs handle healing with a lot of Cure III's and a few Cure V's; poisoning Cure III for them is a bad idea.

This "adjustment" to Cure III/IV would also add to PLD's enmity generating ability more, possibly making PLDs trivially good at that aspect of tanking (and thus invalidating a lot of enmity gear).

Nerfing the Errant set isn't so hot, either; have a look at who use it the most heavily--all the mages (sans BLU), not just us RDMs. In fact, it'll hurt the pre-endgame/pre-Assault mages the most, who have little to no comparable alternatives in many slots.

* * *

The world doesn't revolve around RDMs, and doesn't revolve around RDM players who hate curing, either. :wasted: Have a care for how others (and the game) would suffer if your wish is granted...
Oh god, not the "Nerf Healing Skill" argument again. Besides, we have a reversal for that argument now.

Scholar. You'd get an automatic B skill from it, the only thing that would change is you'd get out of status cures.
Hmmmmmmmmm....
................
................
................
................
I got it!
Whm +30% Cure Potency Trait at 40
At 45 -50% enmity from cures
Add the 'poison to cures'
Everytime the pty/ally makes a light skill chain, if the cure is timed at a MB time, it heals double hp, or if against undead, deals double dmg.
BLM -50% enmity from nukes with less than 30% resist rates at 40
SCH both whm and blm's enmity traits at 60


As for ToAU mobs...
I'm oping for each ws done without sc after the possible window closes the mob recovers 50% of its lost HP and summons an expless shadow that hits twices as much in dmg with high resists to enfeebles.
<_<; Crazy yes.
Works to restore SC, maybe.
Effective, you decide '08 :thumbsup:

Holy crap I can't believe this is a 6-page thread.

I've been avoiding it because I didn't want to come in and piss all over someone's idea, but I was wondering what garnered 80+ replies.

At any rate, I agree with BBQ/Sev/Itaz and others about this being absolutely beyond neccesary. If you make Refresh subbable, that kills a good chunk of RDM's spot in a party, and while I'm a stickler for maintaining that Enfeebling is a good RDM's main role in endgame, Refresh is still a major role and that should go without saying.

Plain and simple, WHMs and BLMs don't need their own Refresh, because that's why you have support role jobs in the party. RDM doesn't need stronger Refresh because if you aren't able to make do with 3-5/tick you have from Refresh/Sanction/Gear, you're seriously doing it wrong.

And the single most important thing I saw in this thread, that needs to be stressed in every single freaking RDM thread evar lately, is this:

XP/Merits =/= Endgame RDM

Seriously, far too many people lately have been on here saying "RDM needs XXX" and basing their claim solely on their experiences fighting Greater Colibri. You need to actually do something outside of XP as RDM, and realize the ridiculous amount of versatility and ability the job already has before bitching about what it needs. RDM is already nearly broken to a point in certain aspects, giving it stronger Refresh would absolutely destroy balance amongst mage jobs. Given even stronger Refresh, why would a good RDM bother bringing a group to any fight where the target can be bound, slept, or kited?

"Guys, can you stop with the chaining? The cast time and recast time of everything has doubled." "Tell Jormy to stop shaking off Slow II--can't cast it again for another minute." "No more Refresh for you guys; recast is longer than duration now." "AFK 15 minutes to reset recast timer. Sorry!"

Not at all. If all you're doing is casting Slow 2 and other enfeebles w/out giving a helping hand for cures, you probably deserve double cast time. The act of casting a spell of another type would counteract the effect, forcing you to vary your magic type. In fact, in accordance with it I'd want to be able to work into the positive -- gain more fast cast by casting stuff... fast. But anyway, it's still not my best idea. I think I should just stick to:

Yet another idea that probably isn't a good one. Apparently, I just like to bastardize this topic.

Also about Regain. This would get WHM more invites, for damn sure (WHM +BRD is already pretty good for merits) but it'd certainly encourage tp spam. especially since if it's not AoE, you're only Regaining one melee at a time. Discourages them to try to time themselves with each other.

----

Don't worry, I'm done thinking about ideas. I don't mind if S-E never does anything the direction I think they should go, but I have to say...

Like I said in my previous post, it doesn't matter what adjustment is made to any job. The issue is the player base and the attitude of getting the most exp in the least amount of time with as little effort as possible. We have bastardized the job so that we can do things as easy as possible and then get stuck in a role that a percentage don't like because of it. Since changnig the majority of player's attitudes is next to impossible (loldrg....STILL?) just accept the role we play and move on. If SE does an "adjustment" down the road, then we'll see how the player base will pervert that.

This is no reason to throw in the towel. "Oh shit, Monks are getting 100% tp back from using Asuran Fists. But if we fix this TP problem, something else will come up."

I like to know that they're trying to make my experience feel more balanced, and less monotonous. I have $15/month that pays for this privilege.

And on a related note, I would like to state that S-E has been impressing me in the last year. While I hate what AU exp has become, I like a lot of the AU activities such as Assaults, ISNMs, etc (Besieged kinda sucks, but it was obviously inspiration for Campaign Battles, which are quite nice), I like how ingenious the 5 newest jobs are (even if they have issues), but most importantly, I like the changes they've made to old jobs.

Gg, S-E.

And I don't think screwing with Refreshes is wise either. -- Pteryx
Maybe not, but as long as Red Mage has Refresh that is the reason why they will be in such high depend. Even if SE does buff Red Mage melee, it will be fun and all but I doubt anything would really change. Red Mage would be the same as it was before, only better. And like someone said earlier, you can't give a job too much without taking away something else.

IMHO, I really doubt S-E will/should buff RDM's melee damage. Imagine if RDM has A rank sword/dagger skill rating, that means 6 x RDM party setup is possible, which is very broken.

P.S. : RDM is already very powerful right now. Other jobs in the game has *holes* in it, RDM has the least.

Maybe not, but as long as Red Mage has Refresh that is the reason why they will be in such high depend. Even if SE does buff Red Mage melee, it will be fun and all but I doubt anything would really change. Red Mage would be the same as it was before, only better. And like someone said earlier, you can't give a job too much without taking away something else.

Is it wrong for us to be in high demand for Refresh? Heck, if anything I'd love to see SC+MB come back so I'm refeshing people other than myself. Am I right that you weren't around before ToAU, and thus never got to see us invited as refreshers? When Refresh wasn't seen as a tool to keep up with chain infinity with, but as something you cast on all the mages?

Heck, if you want to outright kill our ability to keep up with chain infinity, don't screw with Refresh -- screw with Convert. Make it work more like automaton Convert, and all of a sudden RDMs won't be able to keep MP indefinitely. Since Convert affects only us, and cannot be used on other party members, we'd be able to adapt back into the old buff/debuff role. Yes, our invites would go down significantly, but the invites we'd get would likely be for more traditional setups, with many mages for us to Refresh again. -- Pteryx

IMHO, I really doubt S-E will/should buff RDM's melee damage. Imagine if RDM has A rank sword/dagger skill rating, that means 6 x RDM party setup is possible, which is very broken.


Don't be silly. I'd invite at least one BRD for Minuet, it'd only be a RDM x5 party. :thumbsup:

Don't be silly. I'd invite at least one BRD for Minuet, it'd only be a RDM x5 party. :thumbsup:

Then it is beyond broken... :rofl:

IMHO, I really doubt S-E will/should buff RDM's melee damage. Imagine if RDM has A rank sword/dagger skill rating, that means 6 x RDM party setup is possible, which is very broken.

P.S. : RDM is already very powerful right now. Other jobs in the game has *holes* in it, RDM has the least.

That's the problem with Red Mage right now: it's far too powerful in the magic department, so nothing's being done in the melee department. What a quandary.

Further complicating things is the fact S-E can't very well take spells out of the game, knowing that some Red Mage somewhere put his effort in to getting it, no matter how sucky/broken it is/can become.

So, I suppose like S-E said, adding spells seems to be the best option to put us to the frontline. Adding spells to Red Mage, though, I'm not so sure of.

I have always viewed Scholar as a potential solution to this Red Mage problem. All of the melee-minded Red Mages have been told to this point "Blue Mage is that way. ->" Turnabout is fair play, though, so I figure if we give some toys to Scholar, we can point back at the backline onry Red Mages and say "<- Scholar is that way." Screw Pteryx's "means and extremes" distinction: to me, flavor-wise, a Scholar is a Red Mage who gave up his sword for some more cool magey stuff.

First point to be made: not Convert. Sole reason: tell me any two jobs which share the same Job Ability. (I know they share Traits, but my point is with the Abilities.) But, maybe they could get something similar. Maybe some higher-level strategems that substitute HP for MP on a spell (for Light Arts, give it a Paladin-like honor of sacrifice sort of name; for Dark Arts, make it a Dark Knight-like ritual of consumption sort of deal), but those alone won't be good enough. Maybe since their more studious and precise, give them an ability which lets them cut their current HP in half to earn that amount in MP, and give it a cool-sounding Latin name like Modus Vivendi (Method of Life).

Second point: Refresh. . . . Umm, why not? If AoE Refresh (or "Refreshra," as Coinspinner so cleverly put it to avoid a strangling from BBQ and I) is your primary concern, then simply don't make it work with Accession, like with Re/Raise. If being subbable is your secondary concern, then just don't do that either.

Red Mage now has every excuse to receive boosts to melee, either indirectly through giving our Enspells the ability to "En-Staff," and/or giving us Abilities like Doublecast (subbable, please), and/or giving us Traits that allow simultaneous spell-casting and sword-fighting ( "Shaped Strikes?" ), and/or directly through giving us higher combat skills than B, and/or maybe a DD Ability/Trait (I'm out of creativity/time at this point :wasted: ). Keep in mind I listed every option I could think of: I totally do not expect to receive all of that at all. :wasted:

This is no reason to throw in the towel. "Oh shit, Monks are getting 100% tp back from using Asuran Fists. But if we fix this TP problem, something else will come up."

I like to know that they're trying to make my experience feel more balanced, and less monotonous. I have $15/month that pays for this privilege.


Monks getting 100% tp back was a flaw in the game. It was not meant to be that way and was fixed. Rdms being main healers isn't a flaw....its a player base situation. People want the most exp in the shortest amount of time with the least amount of effort. This isn't a flaw, this is an attitude and until the attitude changes the issue will remain. Why should SE change something that isn't flawed to appease a small % of people? I pay $31/month to have the privilege of playing FFXI and I enjoy my rdm just the way it is, thank you very much. There are other jobs in the game if I get frustrated/bored with it. Thats one of the reasons I keep playing.

That's the problem with Red Mage right now: it's far too powerful in the magic department, so nothing's being done in the melee department. What a quandary.
Red Mage now has every excuse to receive boosts to melee
Not that I agree with your assertions, but your basic logic for the entire post is that because RDM is too powerful in magic, so it should receive boosts to melee? Is that so it can be too powerful in melee as well?

* * *

RDMs do not melee much in normal exp parties because it spends so much time casting, melee'ing becomes a counterproductive distraction. Otherwise, it would be logical to add a little supplemental damage.

The major flaw with the idea of making other mages do our work is that if they do that, why not just replace the RDM with a dedicated melee DD instead? It's what happened to BLMs for not doing top tier damage battle after battle--their backup healing, enfeebs, stun, and crowd control capability obviously wasn't enough to keep them on the party's good side.

* * *

Reading the description is nice; cereal marketed at children apparently can be a part of a nutritious breakfast. Reading the ingredients list is even better; you'd see that the good stuff is diluted with fillers like sugar and not-exactly-good-for-you material like food coloring. The description says healthy, the ingredients reveals it to be junk food.

The content of RDM--the melee skills, spell list, job traits, job ability, and the gears we have access to--says we're great mage and so-so at melee. Instead of complaining about the lacking in melee and the time to use those skills in exp parties, why not:
- Make better use out of our top skills instead of obsessing over our mediocre ones.
- Create "abnormal" exp parties so you get to do what you want.
- Stop thinking exp party is the whole of FFXI.
- Go solo.

Want a real cereal instead of junk food? Cook some oat meal and cream wheat. Want a melee-mage? Then, it's a good thing Blue Mage is a lot fun.

* * *

I want some oat meal now. This is all your fault, YM. :vent:

Steel cut onry.

Reading the description is nice; cereal marketed at children apparently can be a part of a nutritious breakfast. Reading the ingredients list is even better; you'd see that the good stuff is diluted with fillers like sugar and not-exactly-good-for-you material like food coloring. The description says healthy, the ingredients reveals it to be junk food.

But it has vitamins and minerals... :( Kids need their Niacin!

Not to derail further, but I've noticed a lot of kids cereal commercials now say "Part of a delicious breakfast" instead of "nutritious." I guess people were noticing.

Those high calorie, sugar filled cereals don't make it past my front door! My grandkids would be bouncing off the walls after a bowl of that garbage! I buy a health food cereal that is sweetened with honey and is like a granola. Sticks to your ribs and has lots of good fiber............and yes it does taste good too!

Honey is mostly just expensive sugar. ._. Heck, the bee keepers feed the bees sugar to between jobs or during cold weather.

I've never noticed kids bouncing off the walls more because of sweets; just about any food gives them energy to do that, if they are happy or excited. (Unless you overstuff them, then they become lethargic.)

* * *

Still craving oat meal...

Oh trust me, sugar does insane things to children in the right amounts. When my son-in-law drops off my grandson and says "Oh we just came from Chuck E. Cheese so he's eaten." I always say "I suppose he had soda too?" and of course he says yes. That kid comes into the house an entirely different person. After a couple hours of "detox" he settles down.

There is a difference between processed sugar and natural sugar in honey. We also only use organic honey where bee keepers do not feed sugar to the bees. Also the cereal is not loaded with honey, just a touch for some sweetness for the kids. It's a bit harder to get kids to eat healthy so sometimes you have to make concessions. LOL

There is a difference between processed sugar and natural sugar in honey.
There is, but probably not in the way you think of it.

Honey - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honey)
Honey is a mixture of sugars and other compounds. With respect to carbohydrates, honey is mainly fructose (about 38.5%) and glucose (about 31.0%), making it similar to the synthetically produced inverted sugar syrup which is approximately 47% fructose, 47% glucose and 5% sucrose. Honey's remaining carbohydrates include maltose, sucrose, and other complex carbohydrates.

"Corn syrup", specifically the "High Fructose Corn Syrup" variety commonly used in soft drinks, contains both glucose and fructose--HFCS 55 is "approximately 55% fructose and 45% glucose". (Sucrose is another simple sugar; a component of glucose, if you will.)

As you can see, honey and HFCS is more alike than different chemically. Those who tout health benefits of "natural sugar" from honey are the victim of the "health food" industry's propaganda campaigns. (Not that honey is somehow bad for health in moderate quantities. It has both advantages and disadvantages over more processed sweeteners--just not enough of a difference to make it radically different from the empty calories from HFCS.)

The main problem with sugar in American society is the extra calories it gives on top of the fatty, high starch, over-sized portion we get from meals. A secondary concern is the amount of fructose we are getting, which some suspect we may not have evolved the ability to handle in the quantity we are consuming currently.

You guys just had to remind me of all this crap. Damn diet. I haven't eaten out in almost five weeks now. HFCS is in just about everything. If I do any sodas now, it has to be down with pure cane sugar.

but its mostly just Kool-Aid, Juice, Tea and Water. I'm not even allowed to have milk. Damn food allergies.

Is the topic far enough off-track yet?

Hmmmm self-only refresh hmmmmm.....

I wouldn't want to sit in town searching for parties for weeks without a single invites... Trust me, Rdm's life without refresh to advertise ourselves really sucks. So bad.

Something SE did to encourage more casting by DRKs is to reduce cast times of absorbs by 1/2. Didn't really work, but there is less drawback to casting the spells if they take less of your swing time away. A simple change like that could help RDM a lot.

Some others...

A 5 minute duration buff that provides self-only Subtle Blow. Conversely a self-only Store TP boosting spell could be nice, provided one is configured for a decent weaponskill like Evisceration or Vorpal Blade.

Anything which boosts damage either magical such as enspell or physical via direct boosting of str, attack, acc or speed increase.

There is, but probably not in the way you think of it.

Honey - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honey)
....blah, blah, blah...

Hence why I used the term PROCESSED sugar. Organic honey is more healthy for you than processed sugar. Honey contains at least 15 nutrients whereas sugar has none. Honey is an aid to digestion when taken in the raw state due to its enzyme content while sugar interferes with digestion. Honey enters the bloodstream slowly, 2 calories per minute. Sugar enters quickly at 10 calories per minute, causing blood sugars to fluctuate rapidly and wildly. Sugar causes calcium leakage from bones, contributing to osteoporosis while honey does not.

If you'd like to talk about honey and sugar in another thread, please feel free but I won't comment anymore in this one. Everyone has their own beliefs and I'll stick to mine. I may be a grandmother but when I'm out in public with my 27 yr old daughter people think that I am her sister. I guess some of my eating habits actually might be doing something right. LOL

>.>

Everyone has their own beliefs and I'll stick to mine. I may be a grandmother but when I'm out in public with my 27 yr old daughter people think that I am her sister.

Pics or it didn't happen :P


I got it!
Whm +30% Cure Potency Trait at 40


Weren't you one of the ones who said that Whm get enough Cure Potency+ stuff already when I mentioned this ages ago? :P (although my idea was lvl 20 Cure Potency +10%, lvl 40 Cure Potency +15%-20%)

I think the best idea here though is to make tougher mobs more worthwhile to go after, and maybe toss subbed Utsusemi a minor nerf as well.

It's a tough thing though, because this IS all player mentality. Everyone only looks at Utsusemi for avoiding damage, when in some cases it's really not the best choice. For example, I was in a TP burn recently. Party setup was, Rdm, Blu, 2x War/nin, Drk/sam, Drg/sam. Both warriors started with Gaxe, and one switched to Axe+Sword. The Drk/Sam and I (Drg/Sam) were probably taking less damage than the two warriors (Drk used Dread Spikes + Seigan/TE quite nicely, I used Super Jump/Seigan/TE) In addition to that, we were able to SC quite nicely since we gained TP at roughly the same rate (she was using Gsword)

I would make the arguement that if both of the warriors had gone war/sam, then they could have easily bounced hate around for seigan+TE, although nothing really stopping them from both going /nin and bouncing hate around either, and due to meditate and store TP could have done alot more WS, resulting in mobs being killed faster.

To be fair, there were a couple of times that since they were war/nin it probably saved them, but frankly that was a poor party, and there were many things that happened that just, should not have happened.

However I was amused that when the party broke up since people were force DCing to leave it that the party leader was insisting that the replacements come /nin, and that's just no, that's the easy crappy n00b way out. Build a proper party that works together and have the people come with subjobs that support their main job's role and you will be amazed at how much less healing needs to be done.

However since it's the player mentality right now to /nin zerg it, that's not gonna happen. And I suspect that even if SE were to make tougher mobs more worthwhile to exp on, that few people would go and exp on them.

With the changes to Signet it's already much easier to exp in the old RoZ/CoP areas with semi TP burn setups, but you don't see people going out and doing it.

Weren't you one of the ones who said that Whm get enough Cure Potency+ stuff already when I mentioned this ages ago? (although my idea was lvl 20 Cure Potency +10%, lvl 40 Cure Potency +15%-20%)
I can't recall, if i did, hesh, what was i thinking.... oh right, i don't. Anyways, that's to balance out with the changes to rdm ect.

With the changes to Signet it's already much easier to exp in the old RoZ/CoP areas with semi TP burn setups, but you don't see people going out and doing it.
Reminds me talking on vent with my hnmls, one of the officers/'leader' complains about getting blm exp when others making a merit party, I suggest, just make a sky pty, he said nope. Hesh, blms + tp burn + sky = fast as colibri camp exp.
Then again, he's a hauby nin >_>; and majority if not all the ppl in the shell are borderline sevv on one side and other side, elitest pricks. Still, you want exp, then say no to a completely real, workable, effective idea cause its not ToAU camp, then stop bitching. /end-rant.


To be fair, there were a couple of times that since they were war/nin it probably saved them, but frankly that was a poor party, and there were many things that happened that just, should not have happened.
War/nins go, "I'm not a god-damn tank!" >_> Seriously. And I wouldn't invite a war that's nin sub cause of that mentality. Show me a war/nin that can out tank, and by tank, keep shadows up while still having the mob face it, and not take a complete beating when it doesn't tp move, and still do dmg while not where a hauby or something that lowers eva >_>;;;

Build a proper party that works together and have the people come with subjobs that support their main job's role and you will be amazed at how much less healing needs to be done.
I've yet to see that in the past 6 months anymore.

Everyone has their own beliefs and I'll stick to mine. I may be a grandmother but when I'm out in public with my 27 yr old daughter people think that I am her sister.
Pics or it didn't happen
Exactly.

Hmmmm self-only refresh hmmmmm.....



I wouldn't want to sit in town searching for parties for weeks without a single invites... Trust me, Rdm's life without refresh to advertise ourselves really sucks. So bad.

Currently, yes. But these changes wouldn't happen without getting a boost to something else, like melee capabilities for example.

Pics or it didn't happen :P



Exactly.

:cry:

Meh, I'll see what I can do. I haven't had my picture taken in 5 years. LOL It's funny...I absolutely have to take massive amounts of pictures to record every family gathering yet you won't see me in a single shot. I actually have a slight case of gerontophobia and my family would be really happy if you actually talked me into taking a picture of myself. LOL

TGM that's just like my grandma, she's constantly taking pictures (and her flash is so fucking bright we all know to brace ourselves for it) but she never has anyone take pictures of her. It's like she's afraid to let someone else use her camera.

Though if someone else brings a camera and gets pictures of her, that's okay.

Curse you Itazura, you derailing my argument! :P

But, seriously, it was totally like you missed the part where I brought in Scholar (and you still told me "GTFI2BLU" ). What makes Red Mage so "powerful" is that it's the only job that can utilize Convert and Refresh. Giving Refresh and a substitute for Convert to Scholar would effectively be taking that away from Red Mage. In return: we get a few tweaks to make us more melee-compatible. You said yourself that we're great at magic and so-so at melee: I want us to be fine at both. Sorry that I can't find a nerf to our magic that is acceptable to you.

War/nins go, "I'm not a god-damn tank!" >_> Seriously. And I wouldn't invite a war that's nin sub cause of that mentality.

Both could do that pretty well. However when the Rdm's Sleep II is resisted and cast back on him, and we suddenly get links/other birdies waking up/somehow fighting more than one, and the blue mage refuses to Wild Carrot/Magic Fruit the Rdm, not even the best of warriors can solo a Greater Colibri.

I actually have a slight case of gerontophobia and my family would be really happy if you actually talked me into taking a picture of myself. LOL


I'm the same way, I don't like my picture being taken :P

Dunno why, I just don't.

Giving Refresh and a substitute for Convert to Scholar would effectively be taking that away from Red Mage. In return: we get a few tweaks to make us more melee-compatible.

But, Rdm will still have Refresh and Convert, and then get a boost to melee.

It doesn't matter if another job gets Refresh and Convert, or Regain for that matter. Rdm will still be as powerfull as it is now, and with a boost to melee it will be even more so. I really don't think it's a good idea.

You guys can do impressive damage to say, VT mobs, but not IT mobs, and that's when your magical abilities start to shine more, and that is more or less the way it should be.

Considering how important to parties that so many people view Rdm to be, I'd rather not see a bunch of Rdm burns because they got enough of a melee boost to be considered a DD.

There are a ton of good swords out there for Rdm to use, the Enhancing Sword is sick DD wise for it's latent and what it does for your enspells. Off hand some other sword (dunno if Joyeuse works off hand or not, but I think the Justice sword does)

Now, is that considered elitist gear? Maybe. But I know enough Rdm who have an Enhancing Sword and darn near every Pld I know has a Justice sword. The Enhancing Sword only costs two million anyway, and melee can pump out alot of gil to get a decent weapon, so why shouldn't Rdm be the same?

My biggest problem is that you are a melee mage class. Being a Dragoon, I share your DD armor choices, so I've had plenty of time to compare my damage to other, simliar DD jobs (Sam/Drk/Gaxe War) who get to wear what I consider the real DD gear. If you want to compete with them it is just not going to happen, especially with a one handed weapon. If you think you should be able to do war/nin 2x axe damage, again, that is just not going to happen (not even going into the axe vs sword IRL arguement)

You've got the tools and the alternate exp camps and party setups already to make yourself more of a DD mage, and to do well as a DD mage, it's up to you, and your other party members, in order to make that happen though.

I'm still oping to a Fast Cast to self melee haste abilitiy that also makes spells cast as a one time "enspell"(ability only counts while enganged, and has to be recasted each time you engage a mob) but with a larger resist rate on days that are stronger against the element used and a mob's native ele resists. At the same time, makes a 50% long recast and 50% more mp cost. As for self/party buffs(buffs/cures), follow the same thing, just only resist's you'll see is a weaker cure =x
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There are a ton of good swords out there for Rdm to use, the Enhancing Sword is sick DD wise for it's latent and what it does for your enspells. Off hand some other sword (dunno if Joyeuse works off hand or not, but I think the Justice sword does)

Now, is that considered elitist gear? Maybe. But I know enough Rdm who have an Enhancing Sword and darn near every Pld I know has a Justice sword. The Enhancing Sword only costs two million anyway, and melee can pump out alot of gil to get a decent weapon, so why shouldn't Rdm be the same?
Justice Sword: O
Joytoy: X
Enhanching Sword: X
Only two mill? Hesh, where ppl get that kind of gil these days?
Still, its gonna take forever for me to get either of those two. T_T
Also, not everyone is near what you've seen on rdms :P
Hardly any rdm on Seraph has that super enhanching swords.
Most have the joytoys.

You said yourself that we're great at magic and so-so at melee: I want us to be fine at both. Sorry that I can't find a nerf to our magic that is acceptable to you.
The vast majority of the time I parse exp parties with PUP in it, they come out to be the top DD. Not just "good enough", or even "kept up with the rest", but the undisputed number one damage dealer.

If PUPs have trouble getting parties with better than fine damage dealing capability, I don't think being fine at melee'ing would do the job for RDM if the magic side is nerfed much.

* * *

Fundamentally, I see the exp system as (slightly) broken at merit levels; Red Mage itself is very well rounded, and doesn't need anything.

I looked up some common and uncommon merit monsters, and to my surprise none of them contained a single "Tough" on the target list. So, revising my earlier statement, only exp from VT and IT need to be adjusted, and T's can be left alone. (I also saw a lot of disagreements on the exact level of critters between FFXIclopedia and FFXI-Atlas. Urg.)

Given that Lv.75 players have access to merits and are likely to have better gears than even Lv.74 players, I'd like to see two changes for the exp system for Lv.75 only:

1. Lower the base experience points from VTs. (Nothing too dramatic, just 10-40 points off per kill, level depending.) Also, increase the amount of exp from ITs.

2. Extending chain bonus to #6 (or #7), but only if the target is 8 levels or more higher. (i.e. Can only get same bonus as chain#5 if just killed a VT.)


Lvl_Diff___Base_Exp___New_Base Exp
10__________480___________540
9___________440___________490
8___________400___________440
7___________360___________350
6___________320___________290
5___________280___________240
4___________240___________210
(Red is IT.)

For Greater Colibri (Lv.80-81; or 5-6 level difference from players), this works out to be only an 11.67% drop in exp on average if I did the calculations right. For those willing to take on Tavnazian Ram (Lv.82-84; or 7-9 level difference from players), though, it'd mean 6.67% increase in base exp per kill on average.

The biggest flaw I see here is that it makes Hilltrolls (Lv.80-82) even less appetizing (-8.33%), which is too bad since that's a good candidate for the SC+MB style. Given that Hilltrolls are substantially tougher to kill, perhaps it merits its own separate fix in the form of an innate exp bonus like Hippogryphs.

As for the exp chain change, the idea is to keep the current bonus, and add a chain 6 or even a chain 7 level bonus:

Chain___Bonus
0_______1.0
1_______1.2
2_______1.25
3_______1.3
4_______1.4
5_______1.5
6_______1.6 (Only if target is IT; VT caps at #5 bonus)
7_______1.7 (Only if target is IT; VT caps at #5 bonus)
(Red are the proposed extensions.)

Personally, I'm a bit less thrill with this, because the "burnable" Mamool Ja do have a low ITs mixed in, and in fact will result in even better exp/hour with this plan. Then again, it takes better skill and merits and gears to "burn" those compared to Greater Colibri, so it's not so bad--better players getting better exp sounds fair enough.

The magic words here are "Lv.83 monsters"; to get the new bonus, must have Lv.83 or high critters mixed in. Currently, there doesn't seem to be that many of them; Abraxas, Tavnazian Ram, Mamool Ja, and Kindred are the ones I found in a fast search.

To make this part of the idea work fully, may need to extend the level ranges of some monster a bit.

* * *

The changes I propose would not stop or even hinder burn parties at all, but would bring the likes of a WS spam party's exp/hour performance on Greater Colibri and Heraldic Imp a bit more closer to that of a SC+MB party on Abraxas+Tavnazian Rams.

It'd be a little closer to that happy, middle of the road place where people wouldn't refuse a "traditional" party when the burn camps are filled.

* * *

No, it wouldn't do a thing to make melee'ing RDM better in exp parties. There are plenty of other places where a RDM can use a sword and/or a dagger, though, as well as BLU, PLD, THF, and DNC to level if that's not enough, so it's still not a major concern in my book.

Given that Hilltrolls are substantially tougher to kill, perhaps it merits its own separate fix in the form of an innate exp bonus like Hippogryphs.


Wait, what? We have monsters with the bonus exp job trait?

Wait, what? We have monsters with the bonus exp job trait?
I guess you can call it a species' trait?

My LS farmed Hippogryphs for their tail feathers once; the alliance was actually getting surprising amount of exp out of it--many people leveled up that day, and some even had multiple merit dings, thanks to the 15% exp boost. :biggrin:

Tavnazian Ram, for example, is a total pain in the butt creature to exp off of. It comes with a whopping 23% exp bonus, however, making it an enticing option for chain#5 when meriting off of the Abraxas.

Due to the dangerous reduce max HP move, having a stunner or two is really beneficial, as well as dedicated healer (i.e. not RDM). It's also safer to SC+MB than WS Spam, IMO, making it the perfect camp for bringing a BLM along with either a WHM or a SCH.

Nice breakdown.

@Vyuru: Experience Points - FFXIclopedia - a Wikia Gaming wiki (http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Experience_Points)

Scroll towards the bottom. There's a chart of all mob types that have inherent exp bonuses.

(btw, next time I take a job past 50 or so, I'm totally exp'ing off variable hares).

Traumatic experiences in Buburimu as newbie put me off hares forever. :wasted:

I agree...that whirl move + nub mages that don't stand back....*shudders*

Beats crabs.

Cone Paralyze and AoE damage, eh? Oh wait, this is the community that fights erucas and flies. Yeah, I'm thinking any party I can convince to take out there will proba