The horrible, horrible derail of the battle system tweak announcement thread got me to thinking: we need someplace to soapbox our pet job adjustments. Similar derails happen in other threads too, after all. I propose that we bring those inevitable rants here rather than horning in on other threads.

I'll go first.

WAR: WAR tanking will never happen so long as WAR tanks are murder on chains to heal. Contrary to SE's apparent belief, holding hate is not and has never been WAR's problem as a tank; survival is. That being said, you lose something essential to WAR if it's capable of being truly self-sufficient as a tank like PLD and NIN are.

Thus, my proposal is this: give WAR at post-sub levels, or MNK at a low level (remember WAR/MNK tanking?), a new job trait that increases the amount of HP they gain from heals and the regen rate from regenerative spells active on them -- perhaps by 25%. They'll still rely on outside help for healing, but a smart mage would spend considerably less MP healing a WAR (or WAR/MNK) than they would anyone else.

There is, however, one issue with this idea: more HP healed means more enmity generated by the heal. To counteract this as well as shore up WAR's only weakness in holding hate, WAR could also be given a job ability that causes heals targetted at them to generate somewhat less Enmity, say 75% of normal. It could be on a two-to-three-minute timer and last 30 seconds.


MNK: MNK is pretty good as a main job, IMO. Where it falls short most is as a subjob. I don't have a lot of ideas on this front aside from the 25%-more-healing trait mentioned above, however -- which would nicely complement MNK's high HP but low Def.


THF: Some of the best things one could do for THF are pretty indirect. First, make some better light DD gear (which would also help RDMs melee where that's appropriate, NINs hold hate through damage, DNCs DD as the community seems to have decided they ought to, and so on). Next, add {Enmity} to the auto-translate function so people have a clue what THF is aside from a light DDer. (This would also help in other ways.) Third, redo the entire Dagger weaponskill list with THF and Sneak Attack in mind, not RDM and magical ability. (I can dream, can't I?)

There are, however, some things that could be done directly to THF to help it. One would be to make Trick Attack more effective -- say, a +20 Enmity bonus on the attack (which, if executed properly, would mean even more of a hate spike for the target). Another would be to give THF a Chain Closing Potency trait that bumps up the damage and accuracy of the skillchain effect of any chain they close -- say, +15% damage/+4 Acc at level 10, and +5%/+2 every 20 levels thereafter. This would increase the benefit of cooperating with a THF while also giving a THF a limited ability to adapt to parties that Just Will Not Cooperate ("screw it, I'll just close chains opportunistically"). One could even make this ability increase the damage or accuracy of a magic burst off of the resulting skillchain or make such a bursted spell generate less enmity.


BLM: BLM's real problem is largely a community issue. That being said, BLM nukes and skillchain damage alike could be helped by one simple adjustment -- make resists less powerful. As it is, by my understanding, the best case scenario on a resist is half damage. Change it so that the best case scenario is 3/4 damage, and make the 1/2, 1/4, 1/8, etc. tiers of resist come after that. This would make both nuking and skillchaining more worthwhile -- and what do you get when you combine the two? ;) This would have the side-effect of nerfing Barelement spells, however, though this could be fixed by making Barelements also reduce overall damage of the element by a small percentage.


WHM: As it stands, SCH can now use AoE -na spells better than WHM can. For the supposed premier healer in the game, this is absolutely ridiculous. SE should change Divine Veil from a job trait that gives Divine Seal a second function to a seperate JA on at most a five-minute timer -- maybe even three-minute. That way, AoE status healing would be possible on a regular basis and wouldn't come at the expense of sacrificing one of the WHM's few tools for MP efficiency.

Since RDM's and SMN's selling points for the healer role are their MP but to duplicate the same benefit for WHM would make the jobs run together too much, I feel that WHM should have its benefit-per-MP-spent improved at post-sub levels. Cure Potency traits would be a start. I used to also think that Regen II and Regen III's casting times should be shortened to 3.5 and 3 seconds respectively to encourage their use (remember the way Ni spells used to be?), but SCH gaining Regen II has complicated this; I don't know whether it's still a good idea to take this approach.


RDM: OK, so enfeebling accuracy starts acting screwy at the top? RDM's nukes aren't worth the MP spent on them? Swapping out staves for a sword makes your spell accuracy go down the tubes? There's a simple, appropriate solution to all three problems: give RDM Magic Accuracy Bonus traits. This could even make RDM more attractive as a subjob.

If SE truly wants RDM to be "used more as magical swordsmen", though, they need to do more than just make our buff cycle even longer; they have to make it so that for us, spellcasting and sword-swinging can be done at the same time. Give us a job trait, nice and subbable to make it catch the eye of those BLUs and DRKs too. Standing back and using staves would still mean better spells, but if we're extra-accurate elven bladesinger-alikes, then us stepping out front instead wouldn't be such a ridiculous notion in the right situation.

Another way us meleeing could be made situationally useful would be to give us Enstatus spells roughly as accurate as our normal enfeebles. While this may sound bizzare, consider this: What would be a better way of sticking Silence on Kirin -- spending time and MP over and over again from the back lines until it finally lands, or spending time and MP once and daggerburning Kirin until it sticks? The latter would certainly be faster, more MP-efficient, and would leave the RDM freer to react to problems. Basically, balance things such that Enstatuses are a better idea on magic-resistant mobs than the regular spells are. The ability to enfeeble colibri by this method is also a plus.


BRD:
People say BRD is nothing w/out a party and that balances them. But this is a party game.

When you simply cannot make 20k/hour w/out a BRD, the job has become too essential.
Lmnop makes a very good point. BRD is simply a powerhouse. No other job can enable meleeburn the way a BRD does. Perhaps a minor nerf is in order -- say, separating BRD's buff and debuff effectiveness into two modes that are on timers, similar to SCH or SAM. If balanced well, this would only hinder the renew-one-buff-Elegy-and-Lullaby-new-mob-repeat cycle that characterizes BRD meleeburn pulling, and merely require a reworking of strategies around the timers in other situations.


BST: SE's done a lot for BST lately. This is probably a good time to leave well enough alone.


DRK: DRK's "problem" at this point is meleeburn. When that imbalance is fixed, DRK will be just fine IMO. If not, well, we'll see what happens when the time comes.


PLD: PLD's primary "problem", too, is meleeburn. Solve the meleeburn problem and parties with PLD tanks are sure to follow. That being said, PLD would certainly benefit from more ways to deal with magic. Rampart's revision was a step in the right direction, but a properly-balanced Runic ability would round out PLD's ability to deal with magical attacks well. Perhaps a three-minute timer, duration 30 seconds or until discharged, causes next spell directed to a party member to be redirected to the PLD, MP recovered according to level of resistance (so a completely resisted Slow would give back 12 MP, a 1/4 damage Fire III would give back 84 MP, etc.). Of course, doing it that way would mean that a PLD would be wise to swap in elemental resist gear when using Runic...

While I've heard of issues with Def eventually having diminishing returns, I play PLD in entirely the wrong style to be able to comment.


RNG: In addition to Velocity Shot, perhaps RNG could be given another stance, which does not stack with Velocity Shot, that lowers the RNG's Enmity generation from ranged attacks significantly. Nothing sucks more than having a mob run after the RNG every freaking time they use a weaponskill -- from anyone's perspective.


DRG: SE's suggested changes seem like a great improvement -- particularly if they make a point to make the wyvern's resistance to magical attacks very strong. Also give the wyvern a slight resistance to Dragon Killer, so they aren't totally paralyzed by imps.


NIN: OK, I can see why NIN doesn't get Jubaku: Ni, but what's wrong with Dokumori: Ni? BLMs and RDMs get Poison II, after all, and BLUs get all kinds of powerful poison spells. Also, Ni jutsus should only be quite that fast to cast for a NIN main; make it so that Tonko: Ni and Utsusemi: Ni take 3 seconds to cast when subbed, not 1.5. That'd at least be a compromise.


SAM: Hasso could use juuust a tiiiny nerf in light of the 2H changes. Say, make the STR bonus from Hasso equal to only 1/10 level, rounded down, instead of 1/7. Seigan could use a boost too -- say, a 25% greater Parrying rate, and the number of guaranteed anticipations increased to two per Third Eye.


SMN: Summoner should not use its MP primarily for its subjob. Summoner's Ward pacts should always be worth the cost. Avatar melee should not be a complete joke. Summoner should at least remotely live up to its in-game reputation as a DDer. Therefore, I propose several changes.

Blood Pact: Rage should be subdivided into physical and magical pacts, allowing a good SMN to cooperate with a melee to skillchain and burst that chain. The effectiveness of most magical attack pacts should be increased, with the possible exceptions of Meteorite, Nether Blast, and the Astral Flows. These changes would make SMN a good DD.

Avatar melee should have its power increased through the addition of Enelement damage of the avatar's element. This damage should be equal to 1/10 of the SMN's Summoning Magic skill, rounded down, and can be affected by the day and weather. Avatar melee should also be made more accurate by having their accuracy be calculated as though the SMN's summoning skill were the avatar's weapon's skill.

Blood Pact: Ward should have its dud spells fixed -- reduce Whispering Wind's cost to perhaps 89 MP, increase the duration and effectiveness of the likes of Rolling Thunder and Frost Armor, and so on. Leave the perennially effective ones like Aerial Armor alone.

It would be neat to add incentive to experiment with other subjobs as well. One of my favorite ideas for that is to allow avatars to gain job traits from the SMN's current sub. Want your avatar to melee better without completely abandoning MP? Sub DRK.


BLU: BLU's key problem, much like DRK's and PLD's, is meleeburn. Beyond that, the only thing really holding BLU back that I can see is its I-don'-wanna-play-support players -- though a self-regen and more of a variety of nukes to self-burst wouldn't hurt.


COR: The Quick Draw charges thing is nice and all, but what COR really needs is a level 1 gun. And preferably more bullets.


PUP: PUP's biggest "problem" is that it doesn't do one thing -- it does what the party needs it to become. To the average FFXI player, that's inconceivable; I blame small search comments. That being said, it could stand to do some of the things it does better, especially choosing the right tier of Cure for the job.


DNC: The timers and costs on high-level Waltzes are murder on DNC's high-level healing ability. Does SE ever actually playtest jobs past Dunes levels? Curing Waltz is fine at 20% TP and 6 seconds, but make II 30% and 7 seconds, III 40% and 8 seconds, and IV 50% and 9 seconds. Also give DNC Reraise Waltz, Divine Waltz II, and Dispelling Flourish. The aforementioned light DDer gear would help here too.


SCH: Give SCH one more subbable Strategem pair, perhaps in the 15-20 range, which halves the Enmity generated by the next white/black spell cast. This gives the job, and more importantly subjob, a more obvious team player benefit.

Lower the Cure spell gain levels: Cure at 4, Cure II at 15, Cure III at 28, Cure IV at 52. Gaining Cures later than RDM is fine, but if they're supposed to be considered for healing at all, they should learn Cures earlier than a bloody Paladin. Especially Cure II.

Rename the current *helix spells to *helix II spells, and make a subbable first-tier set. These would have about a fifth to a tenth of the damage per tick and only about three-quarters the duration and still wouldn't stack, but it would say to people, "hey, SCHs do DoT", give people something semi-uniquely Scholarish as a subbable spell, and make the weather spells actually directly useful to SCH at the levels they gain them, since those have a dramatic effect on Helix effectiveness.

Give Scholar its own unique subbable defensive spells that require a little more thought to use than Blink and Stoneskin -- spells that are damage-type-specific, or change the nature of the danger into something easier to handle (such as turning spike damage into DoT divided over ten ticks). /WHM and /RDM would remain superior defensively, but if applied intelligently /SCH at least wouldn't be helpless.

RDM: OK, so enfeebling accuracy starts acting screwy at the top? RDM's nukes aren't worth the MP spent on them? Swapping out staves for a sword makes your spell accuracy go down the tubes? There's a simple, appropriate solution to all three problems: give RDM Magic Accuracy Bonus traits. This could even make RDM more attractive as a subjob.

If SE truly wants RDM to be "used more as magical swordsmen", though, they need to do more than just make our buff cycle even longer; they have to make it so that for us, spellcasting and sword-swinging can be done at the same time. Give us a job trait, nice and subbable to make it catch the eye of those BLUs and DRKs too. Standing back and using staves would still mean better spells, but if we're extra-accurate elven bladesinger-alikes, then us stepping out front instead wouldn't be such a ridiculous notion in the right situation.

Another way us meleeing could be made situationally useful would be to give us Enstatus spells roughly as accurate as our normal enfeebles. While this may sound bizzare, consider this: What would be a better way of sticking Silence on Kirin -- spending time and MP over and over again from the back lines until it finally lands, or spending time and MP once and daggerburning Kirin until it sticks? The latter would certainly be faster, more MP-efficient, and would leave the RDM freer to react to problems. Basically, balance things such that Enstatuses are a better idea on magic-resistant mobs than the regular spells are. The ability to enfeeble colibri by this method is also a plus.

Heavens, yes.

Also, I was chatting with Armando earlier today (actually, technically yesterday from where I am), and the busy-ness issue of Red Mage was something that came up. So I figured "why not bring the legendary Red Mage ability Doublecast in to the mix?" It may seem odd how Doublecast would work in an online scenario, but what I figure is this:

Doublecast - Level 30-or-so Red Mage Job Ability
Recast Time: Maybe 4:00?
Duration: I'm thinking 1:00

Insta-casts every other spell.

The only thing about this is some Red Mages might cast something like Dia every other other time so they would get something close to Chainspelling every four minutes, but then I thought "wait a minute, the way I have this set up, recast times aren't affected."And then I thought "well, if a Red Mage wants to use a fast-casting spell every other other spell, and reserve the insta-cast for longer spells, more power to them for using the ability to their fullest."

As for the being subbable thing, well, Doublecast was able to be memorized as a Red Mage and transferred to other jobs in some of the other FF games (in fact, it was a prime strategy for character advancement in some of them). In said games, Doublecast was pretty much all Red Mages had going for them, also. So I figured "well, why not use it to help make Red Mages slightly less busier, and why not also make Red Mage a more attractive sub for other Mages, seeing as all it really had going for it anyways was Fast Cast?"

Also, another thing regarding Enspells: another fix which I have been suggesting for a while is having Enspells eliminate the need for Elemental Staves by having them turn your weapon in to an Elemental, well, weapon! That's sort of the concept of Enspell in the first place, turning your weapon in to an elemental weapon, so why not have Enspells also make your Sword/Dagger enhance your respective elemental spells that way, in a manner not at all unlike the Elemental Staves.

Basically, the Enspells give +Potency and +Accuracy for each of their respective elements, as well as the added elemental damage, just like the Staves themselves. Maybe said bonuses are added in an Enspell II list; my point is, if a Red Mage can reproduce the effect himself with the weapon of his choice, why on Vana'diel would they use (or even want to use) a Staff? This would go with the Magical Swordsmen feel perfectly.

EDIT: I notice you didn't include SMN on your list, Pteryx. :(

I have lots of stuff I want to say about SMN, but I'm tired, and I'll just let Malacite do that for me. <_<

BLM: BLM's real problem is largely a community issue. That being said, BLM nukes and skillchain damage alike could be helped by one simple adjustment -- make resists less powerful. As it is, by my understanding, the best case scenario on a resist is half damage. Change it so that the best case scenario is 3/4 damage, and make the 1/2, 1/4, 1/8, etc. tiers of resist come after that. This would make both nuking and skillchaining more worthwhile -- and what do you get when you combine the two? ;) This would have the side-effect of nerfing Barelement spells, however, though this could be fixed by making Barelements also reduce overall damage of the element by a small percentage.


The problem with BLMs is not resists, but efficiency. Any BLM worth his salt can all but eliminate resists on standard monsters, except special monsters like Imps(I think these need to be fixed also, but that is another matter entirely). The real problem is while melee can keep going and going as long as they have adequate damage migitation, BLM and other mages need to take a kneel to rest to keep their potential up. The solution is obvious: A higher Conserve MP procrate for all mages. This would put BLM and WHM back into the mainstream while also giving some much needed help to PLD, DRK, and Melee/Mage jobs(e.x. DRG/WHM or BST/WHM)

This sort of thing comes up every time people speculate about what they'd like to see.

RDM:
Red mage is perfectly fine just the way it is. It's got a good selection of gear, a fantastic selection of spells, and a number of useful bonuses.

I don't think a mild bonus to Magic Accuracy would hurt much, but it seems a bit too abusable for BLMs. I would prefer to see the terminally weak Enspell line buffed up with something more than just minimal damage; perhaps tacking on a chance of a status effect on a hit, like a small chance of Stun with Enthunder or Drown with Enwater, would be more than sufficient to mix up RDM's fighting arsenal.

WHM:
Scholar subjob is like a white mage's dream come true, but the problem now with white mage is that the game has moved on past the need for dedicated healers. White mages need something extra to differentiate themselves from their near-twins RDM and SCH aside from Protectra and Stona. A little extra Cure Potency would be a step in the right direction, and some Enmity Decrease traits would certainly help.

BLM:
Oh how the mighty have fallen. BLMs are still powerhouses at endgame, but the process of reaching level 75 has become a task akin to levelling BST. A stronger return to skillchaining is in order; it's gotten to the point these days when most melees don't even know what their primary weaponskills do as far as skillchain interaction.

Not that I'm advocating going back to the old chain-ITs-with-skillchains-only method, but surely there's a happy medium somewhere in between that and today's no-skillchaining accidental TP burning methodology.

PUP:
Fix after fix after fix, and Puppetmaster still has yet to find an identity. This is probably the most improved job over the past several updates, and yet no one is really sure quite how they fit in; they're not a healer, they're not really a DD, they aren't a support job. Dancer subjob helps Puppetmasters quite a bit, but they still need something more unique to define them aside from the ability to weakly mimic the role of several other jobs.

I'd like to see Puppetmaster Maneuvers strengthened in some way to benefit the user as well as the Automaton; perhaps using a Dark Maneuver gives the Puppetmaster a temporary Auto-Refresh trait, while a Fire Maneuver will give them a temporary Attack Up trait.

DRG:
Another perpetually-fixed-and-yet-never-quite-useful job.

Activating Healing Breath off of casting a spell weaponskill feels incredibly artificial; Square-Enix needs to go back to the drawing board and give Dragoons some direct control over these abilities, in the same vein that they now have the Spirit Link ability.

SCH:
Many jobs are terrible for their first 36-40 levels. Scholar is one of the rare few that actually gets WORSE as it levels up. The spell list is so threadbare as to be nearly transparent, and the job abilities aside from the basic Arts are spaced too far apart to be useful. Most of the time, Strategem charges are used to make the Scholar perform at least adequately compared to their counterparts, instead of being job-defining. The later levels are worse; Helixes are weak and MP-intensive, and Storm spells to change the active weather effect on a target are just this side of worthless even at endgame.

DNC:
This is a pretty potent all-around job, but higher levels do seem a bit samey-same compared to earlier ones, just with bigger numbers. I don't know that this is necessarily a criticism, but I think it's definitely an issue if Square-Enix wants Dancers to be anything other than strange replacements for a healer in a party.

WAR:
Square-Enix needs to decide what the heck this job is supposed to do. Give the job some teeth by giving it a job ability like Scholar's which gives it an artificial bump in weapon skill level up to B rank in exchange for dropping defensive skills to D or lower and vice versa.

MNK:
Nothing wrong with Monk at level 75, but the earlier levels are rather a pain. Giving Monks something like Samurai's Hasso and Seigan stances would make perfect sense, since they already have Counterstance; some more stances that increase the flexibility of the job by improving the defensive power of Guard perhaps in exchange for some Evasion wouldn't be out of place here.


Icemage

WAR - More tanking tools, more Defense Bonus Traits.
MNK - Give it brains, please, this is the Ultimate AFK job.
THF - Assassin was nice, but they still need an EXCLUSIVE DD ability
RDM - Wait and see about the "frontline spells"
WHM - Give them Refresh, just do it. Its White Magic, fuck what RDMs think,
BLM - Turnabout is fair play, adjust Colibri to where they have a "stance" that reflects weaponskills.
NIN - Some Job Abilities between levels 2 and 74 would be nice.
BRD - Getting Single Target Song ability, but it needs to but pulled out of the "refresher" ghetto of endgame.
PLD - More Damage Mitigation ability, /DNC actually was a big boost, though.
DRK - They got a lot last year. Leave as is.
DRG - Some Job Abilities after 50 would be nice (Lancet would be a nice, classic addition).
SMN - Wait and see how the Spirit adjustment pans out, new avatars coming.
BST - New Jug pets, a prompt warning me my jug pet will expire. Aern BSTs get Xomits, c'mon, let BSTs at least have a couple mobs to charm in Sea and endgame Zilart palaces.
RNG - Something better than Hellfire for guns. No complaints otherwise
SAM - Can't think of anything.
PUP - New attachments
BLU - New spells, boost to magical Blue Spells.
COR - QD update forthcoming, new Rolls coming.
DNC - more "Steps." I'd like a few more enfeebles.
SCH - Blink and Stoneskin. Screw originality - these work.

Misc Gripes - BLU gets both sea sets, COR, BLU, DNC and SCH don't get jackshit for armor from sea. DNC and SCH don't get anything from Sky, HNM or Salvage. This is kind of a large oversight. I can understand holding off ToA and WotG relic armor a bit longer, but this other stuff doesn't make much sense once DNC and SCH AFs are out.

Lmnop makes a very good point. BRD is simply a powerhouse. No other job can enable meleeburn the way a BRD does. Perhaps a minor nerf is in order -- say, separating BRD's buff and debuff effectiveness into two modes that are on timers, similar to SCH or SAM. If balanced well, this would only hinder the renew-one-buff-Elegy-new-mob-repeat cycle that characterizes BRD meleeburn pulling, and merely require a reworking of strategies around the timers in other situations.

Punish the good BRDs for what the bad BRDs do. Brilliant idea, we really need to repeat the absurdity of the RNG nerf.

DRG:

Another perpetually-fixed-and-yet-never-quite-useful job.

Activating Healing Breath off of casting a spell weaponskill feels incredibly artificial; Square-Enix needs to go back to the drawing board and give Dragoons some direct control over these abilities, in the same vein that they now have the Spirit Link ability.

Just to clarify: Healing Breath is activated by spells, wyvern status cures are triggered by weaponskills. That said, if DRG got the ability to command thier wyvern, BST should get the same. I should at least get to decide of my BST pets do single target or AoE attacks, even if I don't get to pick the attack itself.

DRG is as useful as any other DD these days, they have a better accuracy rating now and are still your #1 SATA partner. Problem is, at endgame, everything (except AV) can be zerged these days with no real strategy involved - I think that needs more fixing than DRG at this point.

BLM: It's a specialized job, and good at what it does. All it truly needs is some help leveling up. Add good level 40-75 mana-burn and BLM solo camps throughout WotG areas. (WotG pets are tough as hell, wtf?) As for getting them back into normal parties, I doubt a skillchain and MB adjustment would be enough. Perhaps some support magic, but that's not very fitting unless it's evil support magic, with some sort of cost attached. Perhaps "Fury" as a Dark magic spell, that gives the effect of Berserk. The "SABR" spell from FF1 would make nice fluff too, especially for lolClaustrum owners, and we all know SE loves fluff.

SCH: A new line of Job Ablities, with it's own set of charges. We've seen the ability of scholars to enhance their own magic. Now we should see them enhance their allies. Call the new line "Commands" or whatever. The abilities would be focused around teamwork. The ability I'd want to see above all others is the ability to cause all party members' next weaponskill to consume only 100 TP. Let's call it "Charge!". How about a resting buff, "Halt", that grants Regen, Refresh, and Regain but only while /healing. There's potentially lots of things that could be done.

Manifest-Gravity is already very useful in events where many enemies need to be slept (for keeping the Sleep/Lulluby casters safe from harm.) Perhaps some innate crowd control would give SCH a larger end-game niche. I'd love to play a true crowd control class.

All that might be unreasonable though. Fine. Basic stuff then.

Dark Arts: Affects cast, recast, and MP cost of Dark, Enfeeble, and Elemental spells rather than "Black Magic".

Light Arts: Affects cast, recast, and MP cost of Healing, Divine, and Enhancing spells rather than "White Magic".

New Stratagems: Next spell draws half enmity. Should be subbable. Perhaps level 30.

Accession: Add Raise, Reraise, Warp, and spikes to the list of affected spells.

Manifestation: Add Slow, Paralyze, Silence, elemental enfeebles, and helices to the list of affected spells.

Ebullience: When used with a Helix spell, adds to the base damage instead of final damage.

Helices: Increased base damage, an equivalent amount of which should be subtracted from the INT bonus.

Storms: Shorter recast time or longer duration. Or both. More equipment, good equipment, with latents activated by weather. Things you'd use anyway, because it's good and can become great with weather to enhance it. Right now I can't think of much besides Obis and Raikiri that would see much use.

Defense: Blink and stoneskin, at subable levels, or some fancy pants new spell that achieves the same end.

No thanks: Haste, Refresh, and anything similar. Dislike of buff-cycles is why I don't play RDM. And I'd rather use stratagems for stuff you can't do without them.

The later levels are worse; Helixes are weak and MP-intensive

Hmm? The numbers I've seen make them seem the very opposite of that (apart from HNM, where the INT difference brings the damage down to zilch.)

[LIST]
BLM - Turnabout is fair play, adjust Colibri to where they have a "stance" that reflects weaponskills.

Heh. Not sure how that helps BLM, but thanks for the mental image.

Dark Arts: Affects cast, recast, and MP cost of Dark, Enfeeble, and Elemental spells rather than "Black Magic".

Light Arts: Affects cast, recast, and MP cost of Healing, Divine, and Enhancing spells rather than "White Magic".

New Stratagems: Next spell draws half enmity. Should be subbable. Perhaps level 30.

Accession: Add Raise, Reraise, Warp, and spikes to the list of affected spells.

Manifestation: Add Slow, Paralyze, Silence, elemental enfeebles, and helices to the list of affected spells.

Glad to see you like my Innocence/Acquittal idea, but... as far as the rest of what's quoted here, I think much of it would make SCH and RDM run together a bit much, especially the Light Arts/Dark Arts adjustment. See, the thing that makes SCH feel different from RDM, rather than simply like RDM missing half its spells, is that while RDM's strengths lie in the points of intersection between white and black magic -- enfeebles, enhancing magic, "mixed" spells like Enelement, and so on -- SCH's strengths are supposed to lie at each magic type's extremes (though don't quite yet), with weaknesses where they overlap. (Though I don't see why Accession couldn't work with Raise and Reraise and Manifestation couldn't work with ele enfeebles and Helixes...) -- Pteryx

Activating Healing Breath off of casting a spell weaponskill feels incredibly artificial; Square-Enix needs to go back to the drawing board and give Dragoons some direct control over these abilities, in the same vein that they now have the Spirit Link ability.

You're missing the entire point of Dragoon.

BSTs, SMNs, PUPs, they all control their pets. They issue orders and watch them fight. BSTs and SMNs generally don't care at all if their pets die, or even use it to their advantage, the PUP is somewhere in the middle. The Dragoon, however, fights with their pet. Their wyvern attacks what they attack, their wyvern bases it's actions off the Dragoon's actions. Spirit link is something that the Dragoon does to himself, not that the wyvern does. This is why some people didn't like the idea of the 2H being shorter, because it weakens the reliance and care DRG have for their pets.

You're missing the entire point of Dragoon.

BSTs, SMNs, PUPs, they all control their pets. They issue orders and watch them fight. BSTs and SMNs generally don't care at all if their pets die, or even use it to their advantage, the PUP is somewhere in the middle. The Dragoon, however, fights with their pet. Their wyvern attacks what they attack, their wyvern bases it's actions off the Dragoon's actions. Spirit link is something that the Dragoon does to himself, not that the wyvern does. This is why some people didn't like the idea of the 2H being shorter, because it weakens the reliance and care DRG have for their pets.

The only thing that weakens the reliance is that we're relying on something so weak. I'm with you on most of your points, but Dragoon is it is is just another DD job with the added responsibility of babysitting.

The Wyvern does need more health and a few other boosts to make it easier to keep alive, but I still stand by the point that the focus should be on keeping it alive and taking care of it instead of "wait 10 minutes and respawn it".

Honestly, though, DRG needs the babysitting aspect, otherwise it's basically just DRK with a lance. Having more to do than watch TP and hit a few macros is what makes DRG different (and in my opinion, better) than other DDs.

It's a shame, the Wyvern could also use added intelligence, but FFXI won't ever get close to that. Even something like FF12's Gambit system would be great.

PUP actually has the "gambit" aspect, the more of a particular attachment you have, the more often it recognizes the opportunity to use it. Healing Breath and the wyvern status cure also play off criteria the wyvern recognizes.

BLM:
Oh how the mighty have fallen. BLMs are still powerhouses at endgame, but the process of reaching level 75 has become a task akin to levelling BST. A stronger return to skillchaining is in order; it's gotten to the point these days when most melees don't even know what their primary weaponskills do as far as skillchain interaction.

Not that I'm advocating going back to the old chain-ITs-with-skillchains-only method, but surely there's a happy medium somewhere in between that and today's no-skillchaining accidental TP burning methodology.


Actually, this back-to-the-basics approach to skillchaining is required. It has gotten to the point that due to meleeburns, over 80% of the melee in the game don't know how to Skillchain. When I actually convince a party to SC, I am the one looking up the WS combinations even as a mage. Don't even get me started on sky gods. The melee in my LS couldn't SC one of those if their RL lives depended on it.

PUP actually has the "gambit" aspect, the more of a particular attachment you have, the more often it recognizes the opportunity to use it. Healing Breath and the wyvern status cure also play off criteria the wyvern recognizes.

I'm talking about customizable AI, not AI that depends on equipment, job levels, subjobs, and the like.

It would make sense, too, for a DRG to be able to train their wyvern. They are, after all, close friends.

Helluva lot more sense than the Wyvern using breath at higher %HP because of a goddamn hat, anyway.

Glad to see you like my Innocence/Acquittal idea, but... as far as the rest of what's quoted here, I think much of it would make SCH and RDM run together a bit much, especially the Light Arts/Dark Arts adjustment. See, the thing that makes SCH feel different from RDM, rather than simply like RDM missing half its spells, is that while RDM's strengths lie in the points of intersection between white and black magic -- enfeebles, enhancing magic, "mixed" spells like Enelement, and so on -- SCH's strengths are supposed to lie at each magic type's extremes (though don't quite yet), with weaknesses where they overlap. (Though I don't see why Accession couldn't work with Raise and Reraise and Manifestation couldn't work with ele enfeebles and Helixes...) -- Pteryx

My experience in endgame activities is minimal, so I;m curious. Where/how would my proposed changes to Arts/Manifestation infringe on RDM's turf more than SCH already has?

The Wyvern does need more health and a few other boosts to make it easier to keep alive, but I still stand by the point that the focus should be on keeping it alive and taking care of it instead of "wait 10 minutes and respawn it".

Honestly, though, DRG needs the babysitting aspect, otherwise it's basically just DRK with a lance. Having more to do than watch TP and hit a few macros is what makes DRG different (and in my opinion, better) than other DDs.

It's a shame, the Wyvern could also use added intelligence, but FFXI won't ever get close to that. Even something like FF12's Gambit system would be great.

I was a fan of the lower recast for Call Wyvern simply because we didn't have the tools to keep the wyvern alive. I'm not sure of your experience with Dragoon, but I can't count on one hand how many times I've had a party in Bibiki Bay where the first goblin tossed a bomb and dropped her. Once while fighting the Elvaan crystal warrior she turned around and stuck her with an outrageously powerful Spirits Within.

I'd like for the bond to be strengthed between the job and the pet, and to see the recast raised back to two hours with the proper tools implemented. Spirit Link should be weakened, and the recast time should be dramatically shortened. I don't know of any situations where we're not attempting to keep both ourselves and the wyvern alive, except outside of battle, so it'd make for a nice balancing act. At the moment it's just a way to toss our wyvern some extra HP when the healer has some free time.

I also believe they should implement a Dragonheart ability of sorts that would allow us reraise if we die with our Wyvern present so we don't lose it so easily. It's kind of BS that SE is trying to stress the bond between the wyvern and dragoon and the thing flies off when we die. I can't think of many places where this could be abused easily, and I definately think it fits with the theme of the job.

I'm not sure of your experience with Dragoon, but I can't count on one hand how many times I've had a party in Bibiki Bay where the first goblin tossed a bomb and dropped her.

I only got mine up to 37 or so, but I feel your pain. Had that happen on too many occasions fighting goblins and flies. You can imagine how much fun I had in Gustav.

Definitely agree on your suggestions. Would also be interesting to have an ability replace spirit link-- instead of transferring HP from the DRG to the Wyvern, something that would make HP levels equal, be that averaging the health, or bringing the lowest up to the highest (would be useful to be able to use your Wyvern as a health reserve in some situations, too)

Anybody who has no problem leveling Summoner already has another job at 75. Period.

You can wave all of your Carby Mitts and Fenrirs and Diaboloses all you want, but who honestly has those without already having a higher-leveled job? Everybody know's Summoner can do some pretty powerful stuff at endgame, but getting there is far from newbie-friendly.

Summoner at endgame only needs a few tweaks at most: before that, it needs a flippin' overhauling.

Also, ultimately, I would like to see Scholar evolve in to what people have been treating Red Mage like, whereas I want to see Red Mage become more of a front-line caster (as S-E expressed their desire in doing).

ym, as I recall it, SMN as a job is really made for the people already at endgame.

I mean, look at how it was at release, no minifights. You *had* to do the Lv60+ battles in order to have any real usefulness. There's really not a lot in SMN that's lowbie friendly; even the minifights can be hard if you aren't well prepared.

ym, as I recall it, SMN as a job is really made for the people already at endgame.

I mean, look at how it was at release, no minifights. You *had* to do the Lv60+ battles in order to have any real usefulness. There's really not a lot in SMN that's lowbie friendly; even the minifights can be hard if you aren't well prepared.

Well, that's dumb.

Not any dumber than having items you can use at low levels, but have to be high level to obtain (COP rings, for example)

I disagree. An entire job which requires you to already have a high leveled job to play effectively is on a whole other level of dumbness beyond that of the COP Rings.

By that logic, what's the point of extra jobs at all? Why not have all jobs available from the start?

SMN is a job that's made for players that already have another job at high levels, same as other extra jobs are made for players that already have another job in mid levels. SE was gracious to not set the unlock level to 60, and to introduce the minifights.

By that logic, what's the point of extra jobs at all? Why not have all jobs available from the start?

30 != High level (no matter how lazy I am to getting there . . . )

SMN is a job that's made for players that already have another job at high levels, same as other extra jobs are made for players that already have another job in mid levels. SE was gracious to not set the unlock level to 60, and to introduce the minifights.

And again, I must say you're nuts. What point does S-E have in designing a job specifically for players who already have high levels in other jobs?

Yes, why is it that it's ok to have jobs that are only available to mid-level players but not newbies? How many times have you seen someone come on the forum wanting to be a Dark Knight or a Ninja out of the gate, but they have to level to over 30 (which requires leveling at least two jobs to over lv15) to get them. Why is it ok to force them to level jobs they don't care about at the start of the game, but not force someone who wants to level a special job past that point?

What point does S-E have in designing a job specifically for players who already have high levels in other jobs?
Why not? Why shouldn't there be jobs that are inclined towards higher level players? There are areas. Quests. Missions. Specialized armor. Plenty of stuff isn't available to lower level players. +1 armor is only really available to people with a lot of money to burn, certainly not someone on their first job.

And again, why is requiring someone to have a high level job for a single job in the game, which quite a few people would tell you has been left gimp by SE for a long time, such a bad thing compared to requiring midlevels for the majority of jobs?

Heck, it's not even that out of place for expansion jobs-- DRG, SAM, and NIN all require players in the 40-50 level range or higher to clear parts of their quest. BLU, COR, and iirc PUP all require going into fairly high level dangerous areas to unlock, although they're kind enough not to include fighitng. I'm not familiar with DNC and SCH quests obviously, but I wouldn't be at all surprised to see they also require things beyond the ability of a lv30.

Heck, iirc, the ice effect for SMN can't be obtained in Qufim, which means the only places where you can go for it are Xarcabard and glacier, neither of which is friendly to low levels (you CAN get it in Batallia, if you don't mind growing old and having a family before you ever get it, I suppose)


Why is it so bad that some jobs are inclined towards people with lv40, 50, 60, or higher on another job? Isn't that the entire point of having extra jobs that you don't have unlocked from the get-go?

Originally Posted by Pteryx View Post
RDM: OK, so enfeebling accuracy starts acting screwy at the top? RDM's nukes aren't worth the MP spent on them? Swapping out staves for a sword makes your spell accuracy go down the tubes? There's a simple, appropriate solution to all three problems: give RDM Magic Accuracy Bonus traits. This could even make RDM more attractive as a subjob.

If SE truly wants RDM to be "used more as magical swordsmen", though, they need to do more than just make our buff cycle even longer; they have to make it so that for us, spellcasting and sword-swinging can be done at the same time. Give us a job trait, nice and subbable to make it catch the eye of those BLUs and DRKs too. Standing back and using staves would still mean better spells, but if we're extra-accurate elven bladesinger-alikes, then us stepping out front instead wouldn't be such a ridiculous notion in the right situation.

Another way us meleeing could be made situationally useful would be to give us Enstatus spells roughly as accurate as our normal enfeebles. While this may sound bizzare, consider this: What would be a better way of sticking Silence on Kirin -- spending time and MP over and over again from the back lines until it finally lands, or spending time and MP once and daggerburning Kirin until it sticks? The latter would certainly be faster, more MP-efficient, and would leave the RDM freer to react to problems. Basically, balance things such that Enstatuses are a better idea on magic-resistant mobs than the regular spells are. The ability to enfeeble colibri by this method is also a plus.


This is exactly why I wanted http://www.geocities.com/rpgoat/pictures/FF5/butzjobs/MagicSwdsmn.gif but apparently there aren't many others who <3 the job as much as I did in FFV.

EDIT: http://www.ffxionline.com/forums/summoner/69506-summoner-update-ideal.html

SMN:*sigh* may as well get my rant on (got nothing else to do) Also, I don't want to hear any crap about balance issues. Some of my ideas may be going too overpowering, but such has always been the nature of SMN and I don't understand why SE shies away from it. SMN should wield immense power (they summon gods!!!) but at a cost (Fragile body and intensive MP).

I've always loved how in the previous games SMN was so powerful, but also required careful use of their MP lest you be left with naught but a fragile little mage. A veritable glass cannon (more so than BLM)

More Variance in Avatars:

- Seeing as Ifrit is the god of fire, and fire governs STR, why does Ifrit not deal the most physical damage? At least out of the current avatars anyway? The same should really apply to the other avatars. It would make them that much more unique and flavorful, and really give SMN more versatility.

Ifrit (STR + DD/enmity) Titan (VIT + Physical Def) Garuda (AGI + Speed) Ramuh (DEX + Critical Hits) Leviathan (MND + Magic Def) Shiva (INT + Magic AttacK) Carbuncle (CHR(?) + Healing)... Fenrir and Diabolos are bit harder to place since Darkness is a bit of an enigma and the only stat it pertains to is MP, but you get the idea.

No tanks seeking? Have a SMN whip out Titan or Ifrit and try it that way. Ifrit would follow the kill or be killed strategy given that should be offensive oriented (making him good for burn set ups), while Titan would last much longer due to his defensive nature but also generate less enmity.

I think this would be awesome, since the SMN would have to be very careful in regards to what the party does and how long their avatar lasts. If they're not careful or don't put enough distance between them an the mob, well, they're gonna end up dead unless the PT does something. People want a new and unique way to tank? There, I just gave it to you.


Summoning Magic Skill:

- This is probably one of the biggest issues SMN has. This skill does jack shit. No one bothers with spirits in parties, and IMO, requiring more skill than your current skill cap to get any kind of performance boost out of blood pacts is an outright insult.

Why doesn't SE change it so that an Avatar's stats and performance scale more appropriately according to skill level as opposed to just SMN level? This goes double for Blood Pacts. A lv 75 SMN with capped skill and one with much less should not both do the same or similar damage with their blood pacts. That's BS.


Blood Pacts:

- The bread and butter of the job. Why oh why SE do so many of them suck horse cock? Tier 2 and 4 nukes well before BLM gets them and they are out damaged by said BLM with spells of lower tiers? WTF is that? Rolling Thunder, Warcry and Frost Armor are all pretty damn useless. In fact, a lot of the damaging BP's pre-70 don't even match the damage of your average weapon skill.

If we're going to spend the MP to summon our avatars (possibly even *gasp* keep them out) and then spend more MP for special attacks, how about some bang for our buck? Why the hell should we have to wait until 70 to do any real damage? (And even then most Melee can easily out damage them either through DoT or other abilities and enhancements. Never mind the crazy MP cost of the 70 BPs) The fact that they can hit HNMs for good dmg is a crap excuse
.

WHM v.2

- This is my biggest gripe of all with SMN in this game. Being relegated to subbing WHM and main healing for any chance of decent EXP in a party setting sucks. period. The lack of being able to DD or other party functions aside, it's not even so much the main healing aspect.

It's that we basically act as a second WHM with a bigger MP pool with a cute little neon squirrel and his friends. Why not just level WHM then? I think that Carbuncle should undergo a massive rehauling. Let Alexander (if we ever get him) bring the Light Elemental smack down (as he damn well should).

Carbuncle's always been a support avatar, let's keep him that way. I'd like his Astral Flow changed back to Ruby Light or some variation of it, but then that'd screw up the Mini-Forks pretty badly (Good Job SE...)

So for now, how about we buff up his support and healing abilities. I don't mind tossing the occasional cure as a SMN, but if I'm going to main heal I think it would be a lot more fun and interesting if I could do that via Carbuncle.

Separating all blood pacts into individual timers would be a huge help. But in lieu of that, I propose we pump up his healing pacts. Maybe add a Regen Effect (that goes up with TP) to Healing Ruby so that people aren't dying inbetween pacts. ANYTHING that encourages keeping the little guy out and using him rather than lolCures to keep the party alive. You know, like a summoner.


Strategic use of MP and pacts should be the focus of SMN and not whoring out Cures.

And again, I must say you're nuts. What point does S-E have in designing a job specifically for players who already have high levels in other jobs?
Yellow Mage, you haven't been in FFXI long enough to understand the history behind the Summoner job.

Believe you me, if you think Square-Enix didn't have exactly this sort of mechanic in mind when they first added the job, you weren't around back a few years ago.

- The only way to get any avatar aside from Carbuncle was to win the fight against the Prime Avatars (something that was much, much harder to do when the level cap was 60). Mini-fork battles weren't added until very much later, after a large percentage of newbies complained about being unable to complete said Prime Avatar fights.

- There was no Fenrir or Diabolos. For that matter, Diabolos is probably the most difficult job-related spell or ability to acquire in the game, aside from weird stuff like relic-specific weaponskills.

- Spirits were laughably weak. They got a bit of a boost a while back in their spellcasting repertoire and casting frequency.

- Elemental Staves weren't around for a very long time as well. Good luck keeping any summon in play for more than a short while, Carbuncle included, without those all-important staves.

You can complain all you like about it, but this is the way the Summoner job has been since day 1, and only in the last year or two has Square-Enix made any concession whatsoever toward making the job more playable mainstream.


Icemage

I disagree. An entire job which requires you to already have a high leveled job to play effectively is on a whole other level of dumbness beyond that of the COP Rings.

You're entitled to your opinion about how avatars were obtained, but now that they're obtainable two ways, your complaint is null and void. However, I hope SE doesn't even dumb down the Fenrir and Diabolos fights the same way, especially after all the work it takes just to challenge both of them.

You're going to have to explain the CoP ring complaint, though. All expansion content leads to mission completion rewards and I see nothing wrong about the path you must take to obtain them.

The only dumbness in obtaining the CoP rings is how much of an utter joke SE has turned CoP into. I'm glad I beat it when it was still a challenge ; ;


And as Icemage pointed out, SMN has been broken from day 1 (originally it only had carbuncle until Zilart came out shortly after) and it's taken them forever to admit to their screw up, much like with Rranged Attacks and Call Wyvern.

My experience in endgame activities is minimal, so I;m curious. Where/how would my proposed changes to Arts/Manifestation infringe on RDM's turf more than SCH already has?

I feel you've entirely misunderstood my post, if you've read it at all. It doesn't even have anything to do with endgame, and I have to wonder what you're expecting me to say about endgame that would be remotely relevant to the point I was trying to make.

If you need me to make that point again, here it is: RDM and SCH both focus on using both black and white magic. However, they do so in opposite ways. RDM is best at where black and white magic are similar. SCH is better where black and white magic are different. Making the Arts focus on skills instead of the white/black divide, and making Manifestation and Accession work with black enhancing and white enfeebling, would weaken the distinction between the swirl mage and the neapolitan mage. -- Pteryx

You're entitled to your opinion about how avatars were obtained, but now that they're obtainable two ways, your complaint is null and void. However, I hope SE doesn't even dumb down the Fenrir and Diabolos fights the same way, especially after all the work it takes just to challenge both of them.

Well, yes, but I don't want Fenrir and Diabolos to be easy, either, since before that a Summoner already has 7 Avatars to work with.

What I'm talking about is stuff like Carby Mitts only being available from a level 70 Tonberry NM, Spirit Pacts not being that much easier to obtain, and the fact that, before 70, a Summoner is laughed at if they actually Summon and maintain an avatar instead of being a happy little White Mage, despite the fact that if they wanted to be a White Mage, they would have leveled that in the first place.

You're going to have to explain the CoP ring complaint, though. All expansion content leads to mission completion rewards and I see nothing wrong about the path you must take to obtain them.

The CoP Ring comment actually originated with Feba, as seen several posts above.

BSTs and SMNs generally don't care at all if their pets die, or even use it to their advantage, the PUP is somewhere in the middle.

Depends.

If I'm doing a mission that may require my avatar to be left out, I care.

If I'm in a party, I shouldn't care, because it's not suppose to be out (in today's case) unless it's an emergency to hold hate long enough for the tank to heal himself/herself...itself.

If the pet is protecting me or someone for awhile, I care.

If I'm soloing, I definitly care.

And well...if my pet dies, I have to resummon it lol and I'd like for it to keep living as long as it can knowing that it will die soon =(

To be honest, I can't really think of many moments of when I don't care if my pet dies knowing that it's taking hits for me or someone else.

For Pup, I wouldnt really say "in the middle." Knowing the job that they are, everyone would definitly need for them to have their pet alive because their damage together is great but if the pup dies, the party (and/or the pup) will not be happy about the slowness in fights.

I don't know too much about bst. Hopefully I didn't misunderstand you. o.O But I care :biggrin:

And as Icemage pointed out, SMN has been broken from day 1 (originally it only had carbuncle until Zilart came out shortly after) and it's taken them forever to admit to their screw up, much like with Rranged Attacks and Call Wyvern.

If I'm not mistaken Summoner was a job released with Zilart.

I keep Feba on filters just as a general rule that he's going to say something smarmy or largely uninformed about the game because its need so long since he played. (See comment about BST and SMN: Like hell I use my pets like tissue, I want them to stay alive).

CoP Rings are level 30 because it fits in with the level cap scheme of the missions and, additionally, the rings benefits grow over the course of levelling up or doing those caps with friends. Also, SE put lots of reasons to go back to these zones, such as pop NMs and the like. Why put me through all these capped missions and give me a ring I can't use until i'm 72? THAT would be stupid.

And they're pretty damn good rings, it saves a lot of hassle in rebuying rings for missions and levelling up, not to mention they offer a compilation of stats you cannot get from any other rings out there.

Likewise, the ToA Rings work much teh same way. Most of the content in ToA is 50+, Assaults are doable by players as early as level 50 and on top of the great stats you get from them, there are also stats for using them within Assaults.

Given the structure of these missions and what you're sometimes made to work with, I think the way these rings are fashioned brilliantly and encourage people to take up new jobs and return to this content.

I found the ToAU rings to be very lackluster in comparison to the CoP/Zilart rewards to be honest.

And SMN was released just prior to Zilart in a patch I believe (I still remember seeing the JP POL website before the NA one came up, and it showed pics of DRG SAM and NIN but no SMN)

The only dumbness in obtaining the CoP rings is how much of an utter joke SE has turned CoP into. I'm glad I beat it when it was still a challenge ; ;

Missed this one.

You beat them when Snoll Tzar and Tenzen Fights were a matter of luck. If you want to gripe about anything, gripe about what a joke the Promyvion zones are to navigate now. Nothing else about CoPs aside from those, Snoll Tzar and Tenzen has changed. The majority of the missions are still challenging, if you think they're super-easy now, I encourage you to lead a group from start to finish again.

Promy bosses didn't get easier, navigating the promys did.
Mammets are still a pain in the ass.
Ouryu still wipes groups.
Mithra Trackers has not changed.
Mine Shaft BCNM is still the same.
Ultima/Omega battles the same.
Snoll Tzar still can be a matter of luck if it doesn't Berzerk.
Tenzen now just gets beaten senseless.
Everything in Chapter 8 is the same.

BC items are now AHable, the forced farming of the items was rather stupid to start with.

I've experienced the before and after. CoPs are still the toughest set of missions in the game.

You beat them when Snoll Tzar and Tenzen Fights were a matter of luck. I

Luck nothing, the group I was with kicked the asses of those BCs because we planned it out well in advance. In fact, after promyvion the only BC I didn't go 1/1 on was Promathia.

We raped Snoll because our PLD hit invincible right off the bat and then used his salt while the rest of us went apeshit on the Snoll (RNG/WAR using guns and 2 BLMs). We came prepared to deal out teh spike dmg. And SE did make the later missions a good chunk easier when they adjusted the items and such. I still maintain CoP is not that hard, it just requires a lot more premeditation on our part. Not like lolZM that was just absurd (you can beat it in a matter of hours with a good group, barring DM of course. Though I gotta admit ZM17 was actually a bit of a challenge since we didn't have a RDM with Slow II or a BRD)

Gessho wasn't that tough either, 1/1 on pretty much every BC in ToAU except 42 and 44. Alexander took me 13 tries @_@ but that was largely due to the fact that everyone was still struggling at the time to figure out how to even beat the BLU, never mind Alex and his BS 1k+ heals every 1-2 minutes. Now there are solid strats against him and I have friends who went 1/1 and 1/3 > <;;


So far WotG has been lolZM, but I'm hoping that's going to change fast. Please, please let Xarcabard and Castle Z be epic > <

Luck nothing

Thousands of players would argue otherwise. Especially those who tried to beat it before you did. Some people get the run where it Berzerked, some didn't.

You got the run where it zerked. I know people who tried several times before they got a run where it zerked.

It was luck.

But you think the whole thing comes apart because a couple of BCNMs changed, but then, the world came apart when they readjusted two-handers, too.

Believe what you want BBQ. If I had a recording of the video I'd gladly share it but I don't. It's not my problem if others can't make up for their short comings.

It wasn't fucking luck, so please shut up about that. It took me a good 10 minutes just to convince our RNG to /WAR and use guns (he was originally going to /NIN and crossbow...). We spent another 5-10 double checking our battle strategy just outside the BC. We knew what to do.

PLD WAR WHM BLM BLM RNG was our set up, and it worked wonderfully. I honestly can't recall if it berserked or not, I just remember that our PLD died at some point because it did nothing but spam that insane AoE that it has (how I didn't is still a mystery to me given that I was right at the frontlines with him...that my friend, would be the only piece of "luck" in the whole thing.) The changes to promyvion, some of the items (and I'm positive a few of the bosses, could be wrong on that one though) and the removal of the EXP penalty from the BCs = wussyfying the whole experience IMO. Now if people die in a BC it's not as big a deal anymore.

(See comment about BST and SMN: Like hell I use my pets like tissue, I want them to stay alive).

I didn't say you used them as tissue, and the 'not caring if they die' bit is being misunderstood. What I mean is, if a BST or SMN pet dies, they can easily get another one in most situation, DRG is not so lucky. BSTs and SMNs sacrificing their pets is almost routine, whereas a DRG would hardly ever send their wyvern to slaughter.

CoP Rings are level 30 because it fits in with the level cap scheme of the missions and, additionally, the rings benefits grow over the course of levelling up or doing those caps with friends. Also, SE put lots of reasons to go back to these zones, such as pop NMs and the like. Why put me through all these capped missions and give me a ring I can't use until i'm 72? THAT would be stupid.

And they're pretty damn good rings, it saves a lot of hassle in rebuying rings for missions and levelling up, not to mention they offer a compilation of stats you cannot get from any other rings out there.

I'm not saying COP rings are a bad idea, I have no problem with them, just as I have no problem with SMN being a job for people that already have another job at endgame. The fact is, though, that a COP ring is something that you can USE at level 30, but you can't really unlock until you already have a job over 70, which is the closest thing to SMN I could think of. I understand perfectly that COP rings are level variable to fit COP level caps-- that's not the point.

as a general rule that he's going to say something smarmy or largely uninformed about the game because its need so long since he played.
At least one of us has an excuse.

Just the basic differences in job mechanics between Summoner, Beastmaster, and Dragoon suggest that both Smn and Bst have throwaway style pets. The closest I can get to throwing away my wyvern is using Super Jump and hitting dipmode.

I still think the overall power level of the avatars is too low compared to the other pet jobs. SMN is at the bottom of the list in terms of physical prowess vs pet.

A DRG without it's wyvern is still a deadly fighter. A BST is like a toned down WAR (and to be honest, with the right pet is borderline broken) and even PUP can fight decently.

SMN has zero combat traits to aid itself in battle, combined with the lowest physical stats (HP, STR, DEX AGI evasion etc) and poor gear selection (for combat) basically leaving the job SOL and JWF against pretty much any mob EP or higher by end game unless maybe if you're /DNC or something.

Given that the job is so damn weak in comparison to the other pet jobs, I don't see why avatars shouldn't get a boost. Just because they have a low recast is not an excuse. You still have to stand there and spend the time & MP to get said avatar back out and hope the mob doesn't kill you between the time you try to get it back and transfer hate back to your avatar/spirit. I'm sure anyone else here who's tried soloing on SMN knows that a lot can go wrong in those few precious seconds > <;

BST is like a toned down WAR (and to be honest, with the right pet is borderline broken)

Yeah. Damned good thing BradyGames managed to give them such a negative opinion off the bat as a solo job to get them stuck in that rut, or they would've been gimped so hard that RNG would feel sorry for them.

SMN, in FFXI, never really struck me as a job that was meant to do damage. It's not just because SMN don't do it and what they have is weak, it's just that they seem so heavily inclined towards balancing buffing and using occasional damage things. Closer to an RDM or BLU than the WHM/BRD role it's stuck in.

1- WHM gets auto-refresh @ lvl 40
2- SMN gets auto-refresh II @lvl 60
3- WAR Maybe an auto-regen for Tanking Duties @ 40
4- BLM Conserve MP II @ 65
5- RDM Attack Bonus I at least

I know my wish list might cause more harm than good, but these are things that can make these jobs a bit easier to play as. Well except maybe SMN, then they’d be picked for full time healing with so much mp to use. But meh…

I can’t think of anything for DRK, SAM, DRG, or NIN, and the other jobs I barely lvl.

The thing is, I look at SMN as a long-time fan of the FF series and while I really don't like to come off as a fanboy, there is the inescapable fact that this is a Final Fantasy Game.

Online or not, I don't care for one of my all-time favorite classes to be robbed of one of the things it's best known/used for, which is wiping the floor with mobs at the expense of loads of MP.

The problem with FFXI though is that most of the time you're facing a single enemy, where as SMN was always meant to deal with mass groups (when not buffing or healing. That's always been a big part of the job too and SE's done a mostly fine job with the buffs at least) and jobs like BLM were better at taking down single, hard to kill targets (i.e. bosses and other high def mobs lime slimes)

SE has always changed the mechanics of how summoning works in each title from 6 and on, but they've always managed to maintain the proper level of power/coolness until now. Granted it's probably the hardest job in the game to balance (NIN and RDM aside) because by nature the job's meant to be proficient in just about everything.

The problem lies in giving the job enough of a power boost without driving it to the point where everyone just plays SMN and forgoes the other jobs. That's why I say SE should actually raise the MP cost of avatars. Not their perp costs (those should be lowered), but the cost of pacts and to actually summon them (increase the time it takes to call them out too maybe?) in order to offset the relative power of their abilities.

That's how SMN's always been, except maybe in X. (Aeons were rather broken IMO, though their offensive magic sucked ass just like in FFXI > <) You call them out to wipe out big groups (Ifrit), Protect the party from damage (Golem), Raise (Phoenix) or really put the hurt on bosses. (Bahamut) But you go to the well too often and you soon find yourself out of MP.


In a nut shell, I'd like to see it so that it's not a huge drain on MP to keep your avatar out to do whatever (DD, Tank, Heal) but rather putting the emphasis on careful use of MP on pacts. Putting all the pacts on their own timers wouldn't hurt either.

I mean, if I could hit Healing Ruby as often as say a Cure I/II that'd be sweet. Then /WHM could be used more for the status spells as opposed to whoring out the cures. We'd be healing through our avatars and not our subjob. Don't go saying that'd be broken either. Avatars can take a decent hit, but they still have less HP than we do so if you go BP happy that's going to leave you low on MP, and possibly with an angry mob in your face once your avatar is down and out.

While I"m on the subject, wouldn't a provoke BP be awesome?

There's a lot of things SE could do really, I'd just like to actually see them do something already.

I still think the overall power level of the avatars is too low compared to the other pet jobs. SMN is at the bottom of the list in terms of physical prowess vs pet.

A DRG without it's wyvern is still a deadly fighter. A BST is like a toned down WAR (and to be honest, with the right pet is borderline broken) and even PUP can fight decently.

SMN has zero combat traits to aid itself in battle, combined with the lowest physical stats (HP, STR, DEX AGI evasion etc) and poor gear selection (for combat) basically leaving the job SOL and JWF against pretty much any mob EP or higher by end game unless maybe if you're /DNC or something.

Given that the job is so damn weak in comparison to the other pet jobs, I don't see why avatars shouldn't get a boost. Just because they have a low recast is not an excuse. You still have to stand there and spend the time & MP to get said avatar back out and hope the mob doesn't kill you between the time you try to get it back and transfer hate back to your avatar/spirit. I'm sure anyone else here who's tried soloing on SMN knows that a lot can go wrong in those few precious seconds > <;

Which is funny, because Smn still seem to be able to solo just as well as all those other Pet jobs.

Smns pets can buff better then any other pet, deal more burst damage *on command* then any other pet, be called, killed then called again faster then any other pet and on top of all that stuff just with their pet they can sub Whm and be a damn fine healer.

If a Pup's pet dies, it can be gone for 20 minutes

If a Drg's pet dies, it can be gone for 20 minutes

When a Bst has no pets around that can be charmed, they're reliant on a 5 minute JA and pets they have to pay for.

When a Smn's pet dies, they can call them *near instantly* as long as they have MP.

Where as you point out, other jobs can still be ok without a pet in a party (because if they're soloing without a pet, they're dead.) they also have to deal with much more restrictions on how often they can call their pet. While Smns have *total* control over when they call their pet, when they release their pet and when they resummon it. The lack of physical stats for a Smn is in no way shape or form an unbalanced disadvantage to the job. Pups, Bst and Drgs are melees who can summon pets to their aid and have fairly little control over what they do. Smn is a mage who summons a pet to their aid and tells it *everything* it should do.

And it's certainly not the Avatar's abilities on their own that are "too low compared to the other pet jobs" because Avatars are some of the strongest pets. Wyverns can't heal on command, only when certain conditions, including low HP and proper SJ, are met. Bst pets can't buff pt members *at all*, let alone once a minute with no TP. And Pup's automatons can't bust out hate free, TP free, TP-less dmg once *every* minute on command and have no negative effect on anyone in the pt including the Automaton themself.

Smn is a very unique and very powerful job, but it's certainly not all about the damage. And infact, up until FFVII, Summon was never a pure DD, but a mix of Dmg and Support abilities. So their roll as Support and Damage Dealer in this game certainly fits with their history as the same class.

However, I do think Avatars and Spirits could use some tweaks, I certainly do NOT think it is anywhere near as big a problem as you make it out to be.

I'd like to see SMN avatars do more damage, take less damage, and their wards to last longer.

I'd also like SMN avatars to do uncapped Astral Flow Damage. 1k damage is not enough to kill things that are (Easy Prey) to level 75. If a beastman can use Avatars and Astral Flow to kill entire alliances in Dynamis, we should too.

If your not going to increase the abilities of the Avatars, then add in a AOE Aura ability for all avatars. Just an idea that was mentioned before. I can't think of what all the avatars would do, but for carbuncle it should be an Auto regen. For as long as Carbuncle is out, everyone gets the effect of Regen. Don't need carbuncle cuffs to do that.

Oh and I want WHM teleport to have the same effect as teleport worked in FFXII. The effect is pretty awesome, and it should be ported over.

I never said they were all about the DD, just that that was the bulk of their spells (Don't believe me? Fire up the previous FF games and see for yourself) and it'd be nice if the power reflected the cost of the BPs better. (Not just the DD pacts either)

Nor did I say their (SMN) weakness was undeserved. They should be the frailest of the pet jobs, I just personally find the general performance of avatars rather lacking. At 75, Carbuncle's damage (even crits) is capped at around 136 a swing, which is decent for that level. But in the dunes I had Ifrit barely hitting the double digits against mandies, while I could do more than that with just my staff. That ain't right. Avatar > SMN IMO. Why else would you summon forth a god?


Is it really so much to ask that the main focus of the job be shifted from the heavy use of /WHM with the occasional pact here and there, to keeping them out and relying on said pacts while using the SJ to supplement that? I mean isn't that the point of a sub job? To support the actions of your main job, and not to define it!?

I mean, if I could hit Healing Ruby as often as say a Cure I/II that'd be sweet. Then /WHM could be used more for the status spells as opposed to whoring out the cures. We'd be healing through our avatars and not our subjob. Don't go saying that'd be broken either. Avatars can take a decent hit, but they still have less HP than we do so if you go BP happy that's going to leave you low on MP, and possibly with an angry mob in your face once your avatar is down and out.

Heck, why not even do what they did with DNC and keep the shared timer, but make the timer different depending on which Pact you used? -- Pteryx

Personally, I think it's sheer laziness on SE's part. Yeah they have a full plate, but sometimes I wonder if it would kill them to ask for public opinion and give updates on some of the issues the community would like to see addressed. They don't have to use our suggestions, but it'd be nice to know that they're actually listening and give a damn once in a while.

Dang. I made this post right during an emotional moment. I meant to delete it sooner, but my Internet decided to give out on me at the most inopportune moment.

>_>

Crap. I am such a TOOL.

But, yeah, Murphie's right. Hyperbole helps nothing.

This post seriously has been eating at me for a while. Which is why I've deleted it.

Hyperbole isn't helping, YM.

See also: S-E's vision of Red Mages versus the community's vision of Slave Mages.

Right along with their vision of NIN pullers/DD >_>

SE often comes up with solutions that aren't always what we were asking for and most of the time, they prove to be better fixes than what we suggest. Sometimes SE goes so far to observe what players - or in some cases, the best of players - do with the jobs and make adjustments based on that.

If they observed how COR was played and based thier decisions on how most people played it, I probably would have quit this job months ago. Thank God they paid attention to the melee-minded players of the job and not the mage-minded ones. SE clearly wanted to distinguish it from BRD by supplying melee-oriented gear, the AF is proof of that.

The BST adjustments made between August and December were a mix of what players had been begging for for years and some things we just didn't expect. I didn't expect Snarl, but it works perfectly with what BST actually would use thier pets to do - tank. Now if we could just get Sic divided up so we could command single-target or AoE attacks, that would be great.

Wouldn't it be nice if Sic would simply allow you to choose which attack to use in the same way blood pacts work?

well they seem to not want us to be able to pick. Considering how many mobs out there and how many moves they all have, it probably would be hard to program Sic to function exactly like SMN pacts do, but I think it would be plausible to allow us to order a single-target or AoE attack. We usually don't want to AoE attack and that makes Sic troublesome to use in some solo camps and even EXP parties.

Which is funny, because Smn still seem to be able to solo just as well as all those other Pet jobs.

Smns pets can buff better then any other pet, deal more burst damage *on command* then any other pet, be called, killed then called again faster then any other pet and on top of all that stuff just with their pet they can sub Whm and be a damn fine healer.

If a Pup's pet dies, it can be gone for 20 minutes

If a Drg's pet dies, it can be gone for 20 minutes

When a Bst has no pets around that can be charmed, they're reliant on a 5 minute JA and pets they have to pay for.

When a Smn's pet dies, they can call them *near instantly* as long as they have MP.

Where as you point out, other jobs can still be ok without a pet in a party (because if they're soloing without a pet, they're dead.) they also have to deal with much more restrictions on how often they can call their pet. While Smns have *total* control over when they call their pet, when they release their pet and when they resummon it. The lack of physical stats for a Smn is in no way shape or form an unbalanced disadvantage to the job. Pups, Bst and Drgs are melees who can summon pets to their aid and have fairly little control over what they do. Smn is a mage who summons a pet to their aid and tells it *everything* it should do.

And it's certainly not the Avatar's abilities on their own that are "too low compared to the other pet jobs" because Avatars are some of the strongest pets. Wyverns can't heal on command, only when certain conditions, including low HP and proper SJ, are met. Bst pets can't buff pt members *at all*, let alone once a minute with no TP. And Pup's automatons can't bust out hate free, TP free, TP-less dmg once *every* minute on command and have no negative effect on anyone in the pt including the Automaton themself.

Smn is a very unique and very powerful job, but it's certainly not all about the damage. And infact, up until FFVII, Summon was never a pure DD, but a mix of Dmg and Support abilities. So their roll as Support and Damage Dealer in this game certainly fits with their history as the same class.

However, I do think Avatars and Spirits could use some tweaks, I certainly do NOT think it is anywhere near as big a problem as you make it out to be.

*bounces in* I can understand what you're saying. However, I'd like to point out some things. Let's mention what a Summoner can do that the other pet jobs cannot.

1. Our pet doesn't have 3 things that depend on them t stay alive.

a. MP
b. Avatar HP
c. Summoner HP

If mp is gone, avatar is gone, If avatar hp is gone, avatar is gone. If summoner is gone, avatar is gone.

2. No backup when avatar is dead.

This is something I mentioned somewhere else.

"I don't know too much about Beastmaster, but, when it comes to Summoner, we have a very short recast time because we have no backup when our pet is down. When a Dragoon's pet and a Puppetmaster's pet is defeated, the master is left to fight for their life. They can fight for their lives much better than a Summoner can. You have...

A Summoner with a Staff (with /whm magic, but nothin but avatars/spirits on main).
A Puppetmaster with Hand-to-hand (with evasion).
A Dragoon with a Polearm (with jump abilities).

A Summoner would most likely die. Why? Our str, att, and defense are a joke compared to other jobs (and I'm not saying SE PLEASE GIVE SUMMONER MORE OF THESE). A staff compared to h2h and polearm is hilariously bad. /whm could save our lives if we weren't interrupted so much when we get hit, but smn have no abilities or magic (obviously besides summons) as main. Summoning skill still decreases summoning interruption, but obviously not 100% guaranteed...and we all know about the perpetuation (mp drain).

A Puppetmaster could fairly die or live. Why? Well, sure the specialize in evasion, but that doesn't mean they'll evade everything (espcially on the IT and VT and maybe T mobs). The C+ H2H is enough. I read a guy had a parse and he (as pup) was doing 32% of the party's damage (him doing 15% and the automaton doing 18%). If Pup's H2H was rank A, then MAYBE (keyword: MAYBE) it MIGHT (keyword: MIGHT) be overpowered. Plus, pup has some nice weapon skills that can do good damage.

A Dragoon could also fairly die or live. Why? Polearm is actually very nice from what I've seen (this is probably weird, but I haven't seen many "loldrgs" lately. I've seen many good-damaging ones). The delays in Polearms can be annoying since you'd like to fight faster when fighting for your life with no pet.

For the jobs themselves, I don't wanna say a job is more miserable than the other or say which job has it easier than the other. Just pointing out things about what you're left with when you're pet is gone.

3. Minor problem (in certain situations), but when a Summoner's pet dies, we can't instantly summon an avatar to do a "Quick! Save my life" plan. Other jobs, however, can.

4. Hate to mention this since I've said this somewhere else before as well. Other pet jobs can keep their avatars out forever. A Summoner cannot. Although, if a drg, bst, and pup went afk with their avatar out and they got attacked, the pet doesn't do anything; however, a summoner's pet will. So, maybe that balanced a teeny bit of things between that situation even though SE said the other pet jobs will eventually have the chance to do that.

5. Going back to MP, a Summoner at full potential (meaning to do it how SE explains the job) will hold back any party knowing that MP cost of Blood Pacts are costly and perpetuation is nasty plus using /whm magic here and there. No one (not that I know of) doesn't want someone resting every 30 seconds. So, we have to make the Summoner job even less of what it truly is which is heal and throw in a couple of buffs here and there. Plus, the buffs we recieve aren't really equally useful. At 75, you'd find yourself eliminating the majority of buffs you have because using them would be a waste if you could use something better. Most commonly asked/used buffs are pretty much Earthen Ward, Hastega, and Aerial Armor.

6. Let the Ballista begin!

1st team: Warrior, Dark Knight, Red Mage, Monk, Thief, and Black Mage
2nd team: Dragoon, Summoner, Puppetmaster, Beastmaster.

LolSummoner: easiest targest (meaning that I know the others can be easy targets too, but you can't really deny the fact that Summoner is the easiest).

Stupid moments:

Drg: Wait! Smn! Don't rush in first! You'll get massacred!
Smn: Don't worry. I have my avatar and we're really powerful.
Drk: Aaaw! The Summoner wants to prove something... This'll be real quick, guys. Give me like 5 seconds.

5 seconds later

Smn: *dead*
Drg: *sigh* Why don't summoner ever listen? No matter what you should not rush in or even stand out. Just heal us or buff us after we've died and come to life.
Smn: =(

7. "So their roll as Support and Damage Dealer in this game certainly fits with their history as the same class." - You

Summoner can't maintain any role (except healer) correctly or as impressively as any other versatile job. A versatile job is made up of other parts of other jobs, but fixed up in a way that it could be called it's own job. Summoner's avatar can deal damage. Summoner's avatar can melee, and a Summoner can buff. A Summoner can have it's avatar tank for the Smn or for a CERTAIN type of party in some sort of situation (mainly excluding exp party and hard-hitting monster situations). Alone with each of those roles seperately, it will not be capable. Those things together, as a versatile job, should be able to be maintained and/or multi-task, but it can't even do that well to hold the party or sometimes itself together.

If one thing happens, the other thing is eliminated as well. If you melee, you risk MP that could be used for BPs If you do a BP while having avatar out, that shortens the time the avatar can stay out considering the MP is still draining. Mp perpetuation also hold the avatar back from melee regularly. If we're about to use a Blood Pact and the enemy is too far away, the MP is still used even though an attack was not initiated all the way. Once again, one thing seems to try to knock the other for happening normally. A Support and Damage Dealer role may fit Summoner, but that doesn't eliminate the fact that they can't do it without pulling out a flaw that sets them back quickly.

Don't get me wrong though. I still understand what you're saying. I just think a bit differently, but I definitly can't deny that Summoner do have advantages and I can't say other jobs don't have disadvantages. I still love the job though. Like Malacite said in another thread...

"It's a good class, it just needs an overhaul.

Everything it needs is there, we're just waiting for SE to [get] their act together and shift the focus to summoning rather than curing."

Some changes in opinion in the post-SCH update world:


THF: Collaborator's a good ability, though THF could still stand to have that Chain Closing Potency ability, and the game in general could still use more light DDer gear. If they add any more hate management abilities, I hope for THF to get some lower-level ones.


BLM: In light of SCH becoming such a good nuker -- and one efficient enough for today's expectations, and generally party-friendlier than BLM is -- BLM could use a few bennies. To start with, it doesn't seem much to ask to change it so that MAB II-IV are 5% each instead of 4%. Further, it could use something to make it party-friendlier without breaking the "kill shit" theme; the best idea I can come up with, though, still strikes me as odd for BLM -- single-target buffs to cast on melees to add a level 1 skillchain attribute to the next weaponskill they perform, allowing the party to more easily create an appropriate skillchain for the BLM to magic burst off of. (Of course, one can only have one of the eight statuses on them at a time.)


WHM: Come on, SE, split off Divine Veil already! Even if you did, SCH would still be ten times better at it! We're waiting... For that matter, why can SCH "Curaga" other parties, but not WHM?


RDM: Having mused on RDM melee some more, two more things come to mind. One, increasing RDM's own raw power in melee (aside from through more light melee gear which is just as usable by other light melee jobs) probably would unbalance it in a hurry, not to mention that sheer strength has never been what RDM is about. Any solutions to the RDM melee problem should be trickier and more clever than that.

Two, when I think back to what RDM melee was like for me at low levels, I debuffed and then I ran forward to hit stuff. What if we made that desirable? What if, say, Enspells added a status to the mob that makes debuffs of the matching element wear off slower, but which has to be maintained through constant melee with the proper Enspell up like DNC's Sambas? This could make our melee more desirable in situations where you don't want a particular debuff to wear off once you've stuck it. This could even work hand-in-hand with the Enstatus idea.


SMN: Elemental Syphon is part of what SMN needed. It helps their MP issue and it involves them actually summoning. I approve! :) Still, the job's not quite fixed yet; SMN needs more, especially a way to make avatar melee worth it. My current idea on that front is this: http://www.ffxionline.com/forums/summoner/70924-crazy-smn-job-ability-idea-psychic-absorb-psychic-project.html


SCH: As things stand now, SCH's only problem is in defense -- and giving them Blink and Stoneskin now would just plain break them. Probably the best approach at this point is to give them that half-Enmity strategem pair I've wanted them to have, Innocence/Aquittal. -- Pteryx

I think Scholar should just have an ability where any damage they take is only in over-time increments. Or maybe, dare I say it?, a Damage to MP Ability. Combined with Sublimation, the latter ability easily becomes the former ability, so . . . yeah. Hopefully, a backline Mage wouldn't have to use it very often, as it should go without saying. And if they do, then maybe they're better off without all the MP giving them hate.

Call it "Modus Vivendi" (Method of Life), because last time I used that name for a Scholar idea, it became Sublimation.

Summary: give Scholar a minor defensive ability, not a minor defensive spell. Problem solved.

Will get to Red Mage another time. Got tons of ideas out of the woodwork, but not enough time to organize them all at the moment.

THF: Collaborator's a good ability, though THF could still stand to have that Chain Closing Potency ability, and the game in general could still use more light DDer gear. If they add any more hate management abilities, I hope for THF to get some lower-level ones.

Enmity management never really was the issue, the issue has been and remains that all THFs best DD abilities are under subjob - they need a DD Job Ability that is exclusive. The newer enmity abilities are nice in the post ToA problems, but THF is a spike DD and they're completely robbed of the ability to shine because SATA is sub-able.

Give them another spike DD trait, make it stack with SA and make it exclusive to THF.

That's really the only thing that needs to be done.


BLM: In light of SCH becoming such a good nuker -- and one efficient enough for today's expectations, and generally party-friendlier than BLM is -- BLM could use a few bennies. To start with, it doesn't seem much to ask to change it so that MAB II-IV are 5% each instead of 4%. Further, it could use something to make it party-friendlier without breaking the "kill shit" theme; the best idea I can come up with, though, still strikes me as odd for BLM -- single-target buffs to cast on melees to add a level 1 skillchain attribute to the next weaponskill they perform, allowing the party to more easily create an appropriate skillchain for the BLM to magic burst off of. (Of course, one can only have one of the eight statuses on them at a time.)

I could see this being abused a lot, even to negative ends. While it would be nice to stop someone from closing Detonation on a Puk (which just heals it), we could just encourage people to, you know learn how to make skillchains that work rather than force one on a PT member just because they're stupid.

I say (for either WHM or BLM) they be given something else that's attractive to melee and will ecourage Skillchains - Regain. BLMs can use that as a gambit for PTs to make SCs. Sure, like there are weak-willed RDMs that will use Refresh to get invites, there would be BLMs that would abuse Regain to the same ends. But that doesn't mean the good BLMs couldn't still use it as a gambit to get the SCs they wanted.


WHM: Come on, SE, split off Divine Veil already! Even if you did, SCH would still be ten times better at it! We're waiting... For that matter, why can SCH "Curaga" other parties, but not WHM?

Isn't Divine Viel a level 40 job trait? Sure, SCH can simulate its effect, but its one of many trade off choices SCH has to make per Strategem charge. Its not a terrible idea to split it off, but it really doesn't change much for WHM.

Why can SCH Curaga an outside PT and WHM can't? Hell if I know. Why can WHM, RDM, SCH and anything /RDM or /WHM or /SCH cure outside PTs single-target, yet BLU and DNC can't? Why can SMN AoE buffs in Campaign but SCH and only buff players off an nearby NPC?

I think its just to differentiate the jobs and make people think strategically, what this or that job can or cannot do. Its so no job becomes the one that always trumps another.

Two, when I think back to what RDM melee was like for me at low levels, I debuffed and then I ran forward to hit stuff. What if we made that desirable? What if, say, Enspells added a status to the mob that makes debuffs of the matching element wear off slower, but which has to be maintained through constant melee with the proper Enspell up like DNC's Sambas? This could make our melee more desirable in situations where you don't want a particular debuff to wear off once you've stuck it. This could even work hand-in-hand with the Enstatus idea.

This steals directly from what distinguishes DNC from RDM as a status enfeebler, it makes the single target versions of the spells redundant and it lets RDM melee out of pity rather than improvement. It also means Enblizzard would essentially be no different from Ice Spikes and RDM solo would become even more overpowered and ungodly than it is now.

Give them a job ability that improves thier Enspells further, put it on a reasonable timer like, say, five minutes that boosts the effect of enspells higher for maybe one or two minutes at a time, to offset it, make the ability slow null Fast Cast a little bit. Basically, make it like Berzerk or Velocity Shot, give them a boost one way and a penalty on the other.

SCH: As things stand now, SCH's only problem is in defense -- and giving them Blink and Stoneskin now would just plain break them. Probably the best approach at this point is to give them that half-Enmity strategem pair I've wanted them to have, Innocence/Aquittal. -- Pteryx

I think that's some what of a waste of a JA, the AF gives a notable amount of -Enmity and Penitent's Rope, Staff strap and other -Enmity gear is out there. SCH should be quite frail for all the power it has, just as BRD, WHM, SMN and BLM are frail for the powerful abilities the have. BRD was given a -Enmity Song via merit and no one even merits it.

Enmity management never really was the issue, the issue has been and remains that all THFs best DD abilities are under subjob - they need a DD Job Ability that is exclusive. The newer enmity abilities are nice in the post ToA problems, but THF is a spike DD and they're completely robbed of the ability to shine because SATA is sub-able.

Give them another spike DD trait, make it stack with SA and make it exclusive to THF.

That's really the only thing that needs to be done.

What exactly would you have this new spike damaging ability be like?

I could see this being abused a lot, even to negative ends. While it would be nice to stop someone from closing Detonation on a Puk (which just heals it), we could just encourage people to, you know learn how to make skillchains that work rather than force one on a PT member just because they're stupid.

I say (for either WHM or BLM) they be given something else that's attractive to melee and will ecourage Skillchains - Regain. BLMs can use that as a gambit for PTs to make SCs. Sure, like there are weak-willed RDMs that will use Refresh to get invites, there would be BLMs that would abuse Regain to the same ends. But that doesn't mean the good BLMs couldn't still use it as a gambit to get the SCs they wanted.

Isn't Regain implemented as a white spell cast by pixies, precluding it being given to BLM? Wouldn't WHM play a little too much like RDM if it were given Regain? Not that I don't agree that my idea could get out of hand; it's just the only remotely appropriate one I can think of. I'm basically trying to answer the question of what BLM could do that's party-specific that still ends in job one being "inflict pain", not "keep up a buff cycle". Because, believe it or not, not every mage job should be forced to keep up a buff cycle.

Isn't Divine Viel a level 40 job trait? Sure, SCH can simulate its effect, but its one of many trade off choices SCH has to make per Strategem charge. Its not a terrible idea to split it off, but it really doesn't change much for WHM.

Why can SCH Curaga an outside PT and WHM can't? Hell if I know. Why can WHM, RDM, SCH and anything /RDM or /WHM or /SCH cure outside PTs single-target, yet BLU and DNC can't? Why can SMN AoE buffs in Campaign but SCH and only buff players off an nearby NPC?

I think its just to differentiate the jobs and make people think strategically, what this or that job can or cannot do. Its so no job becomes the one that always trumps another.

Well, then, answer me this: what can a WHM do healingwise that a SCH can't? Raise III, Regen III, and Cure V aren't much in the way of selling points by themselves; about the only major thing WHM has over SCH is Haste, and you can get the same spell from RDM instead and get a lot more MP endurance in the process. Meanwhile, SCH can perform AoE status removal once a minute, throw AoE spells on outside parties, and throw up mass buffs that WHM can only dream of having for a cost that would make any SMN as green as their AF.

This steals directly from what distinguishes DNC from RDM as a status enfeebler, it makes the single target versions of the spells redundant and it lets RDM melee out of pity rather than improvement. It also means Enblizzard would essentially be no different from Ice Spikes and RDM solo would become even more overpowered and ungodly than it is now.

I gather that my idea has been completely misinterpreted here. Let me try to give you an example...

Let's say the party pulls a BLM Mamool Ja. The RDM throws his usual litany of enfeebles at the foe, including Silence. It would really help if Silence didn't wear anytime soon, so the RDM gets his sword out, casts Enaero II, and runs up front to start meleeing. Enaero II's damage is no higher than Enaero I's; instead, as long as the RDM keeps meleeing with Enaero II active, the Gravity and Silence effects on the mob will count down to time to wear off at only half the normal speed.

As for the interaction with Enstatuses, the thought I had boils down to this:

Ah, crap, imp aggro. Well, the key offense of an imp is its spellcasting ability, but it's horribly magic-resistant, so better break out Ensilence if you're gonna have a chance of sticking it. Fortunately, Silence lands on your fifth hit, so you quickly change from Ensilence to Enaero II in order to both boost your DoT and practically double the duration of the Silence you landed.

While both my examples use Enaero to extend Silence, one could also use Enwater to extend poison effects for more MP-efficient DoT, Enthunder to ease a stun cycle, and so on.

Give them a job ability that improves thier Enspells further, put it on a reasonable timer like, say, five minutes that boosts the effect of enspells higher for maybe one or two minutes at a time, to offset it, make the ability slow null Fast Cast a little bit. Basically, make it like Berzerk or Velocity Shot, give them a boost one way and a penalty on the other.

And people would want us to bother with this why? Heck, nulling Fast Cast would make us worse at meleeing, because then we'd lose more swings; remember, RDM always has another spell that needs to be cast yesterday. Not to mention, RDM isn't about raw power; the Tim Taylor solution to making there be a point to us meleeing just doesn't fit the job even if you introduce it in a balanced way.

I think that's some what of a waste of a JA, the AF gives a notable amount of -Enmity and Penitent's Rope, Staff strap and other -Enmity gear is out there. SCH should be quite frail for all the power it has, just as BRD, WHM, SMN and BLM are frail for the powerful abilities the have. BRD was given a -Enmity Song via merit and no one even merits it.

WHM is not as frail as SCH; you forget, WHM has Blink and Stoneskin. SMN has that whole "he did it" thing going for them, so they aren't about to die easily either -- not to mention, their best AoE defenses tend to last a very long time, so they're liable to have Blink and/or Stoneskin up anyway. BRD has a decent amount of defensive gear available for those situations where they can't just count on the tank, not to mention light-based sleep that takes only two seconds to cast. Only BLM is particularly vulnerable -- until you take subjob abilities into account.

What I propose for SCH isn't as powerful as any of this, nor as subtle and perpetual as you seem to be assuming. The thought is simply this: a Strategem pair, available at sub levels, that causes the next white magic or black magic spell the SCH (or /SCH) casts to generate half as much Enmity -- Enmity -50% on a single, likely potent, action. Basically, it's an indirect means of making sure the SCH doesn't die for making a decisive move in a dangerous situation. It would be used basically for lack of better options.

I hope I've managed to be clearer. -- Pteryx

And people would want us to bother with this why? Heck, nulling Fast Cast would make us worse at meleeing, because then we'd lose more swings; remember, RDM always has another spell that needs to be cast yesterday. Not to mention, RDM isn't about raw power; the Tim Taylor solution to making there be a point to us meleeing just doesn't fit the job even if you introduce it in a balanced way.

Nulling Fast was an example of a opposing penalty for the buff, I'm not saying that's what SE should do.

WAR uses Berzerk, Attack increases and defense decreases.
WAR uses Aggressor, Accuracy is imporved, evasion is impaired.
WAR uses Retaliation, they ability to counter is in increased, movement speed is decreased.
RNG uses Velocity Shot, Ranged Attack power and speed is increased, melee attack speed is reduced.

I think RDM's new "melee ability" should reflect this +/- function, that's all I'm really saying. Give a "Berzerk" for enspells and make a penalty in exchange for that power.



WHM is not as frail as SCH; you forget, WHM has Blink and Stoneskin. SMN has that whole "he did it" thing going for them, so they aren't about to die easily either -- not to mention, their best AoE defenses tend to last a very long time, so they're liable to have Blink and/or Stoneskin up anyway. BRD has a decent amount of defensive gear available for those situations where they can't just count on the tank, not to mention light-based sleep that takes only two seconds to cast. Only BLM is particularly vulnerable -- until you take subjob abilities into account.

What I propose for SCH isn't as powerful as any of this, nor as subtle and perpetual as you seem to be assuming. The thought is simply this: a Strategem pair, available at sub levels, that causes the next white magic or black magic spell the SCH (or /SCH) casts to generate half as much Enmity -- Enmity -50% on a single, likely potent, action. Basically, it's an indirect means of making sure the SCH doesn't die for making a decisive move in a dangerous situation. It would be used basically for lack of better options.

I hope I've managed to be clearer. -- Pteryx

For high level play, there's very little reason for a SCH to go back to any sub after /RDM at 68+. Maybe /DRK for stun orders, but even that's questionable. By default, they're going to have all the same toys a solo BLM is going to have, with possibly better Stoneskins.

So SCH isn't totally defenseless, either.

Additionally, I just don't like the precedent of more damage mitigation abilities being put out ther if they're not going to be for Warrior. People should take damage if they pull hate for being stupid. By giving use abilities to duck hate, you'll see more stupid behavior (See: Chronically AFK MNK/NIN).

SCH is going to be a respecatable healer, respectable nuker and is now the definitive Crowd Control job of the game, a role that has truely been missing from the game and was shallowly assumed to be BRD or BLM's AoE sleeps. For that function, they'll need /RDM more than any other subjob.

While various front line jobs get continuous boots to TP gain and the ever-increasing trend of roaming and/or fast-pull parties with little regard to caster's MP pools at both high and low levels, I think the following changes wouldn't be to much to ask.

Add Conserve MP to WHM at 30, RDM at 40, PLD at 45 and DRK at 50.
Add Conserve MP II to BLM at 40, SCH at 65 and WHM at 70.
Add Conserve MP III to BLM at 65.

Add Aspir II as a Lv 68 BLM spell

Add Clairvoyance Ring, a quested item that increases the power of Mage's Ballad II, Evoker's Roll and Refresh by one point at level 70, essentially a macro-in piece(Though this might be going a little overboard with the changes listed above).

The only DRG adjustment I would like to see is more control over the wyvern, or at least the option to turn off the auto-attack.

Additionally, I just don't like the precedent of more damage mitigation abilities being put out ther if they're not going to be for Warrior. People should take damage if they pull hate for being stupid. By giving use abilities to duck hate, you'll see more stupid behavior (See: Chronically AFK MNK/NIN).


QFT. Though rather than more mitigation abilities, I'd rather SE make DEF, VIT and what kind of armor you wear matter worth a damn. Seriously what the fuck is the point of full plate when other jobs can get similar defense ratings through food and other means?

And if it wasn't for Phalanx I'd suggest changing Protect and Shell to straight damage reduction but that's never going to happen.


As for THF, I think they should get a new JA (40+) that they can use in conjunction with either Sneak or Trick Attack that guarantees every hit will land and/or critical. (No less than 5 minute recast)

This would have insane potential @75+ when used with say Evisceraton and Assassin's Charge.


Oh yeah and while I'm at it would it kill SE to make more abilities that are displayed properly like Treasure Hunter II? Seriously, enough of this guess work over multiple tiers of an ability (or is TH2 really it's own ability?)


The only things I'd like to see given to RDM at this point are;

MAB III @ 60, MACC Traits, and perhaps some kind of spell or trait that allows them to keep swinging their swords while casting. I mean hell, Warlock's Roll is +Macc, despite the fact that the job has average skill ratings in most schools of magic.

MAB III @ 60, MACC Traits, and perhaps some kind of spell or trait that allows them to keep swinging their swords while casting. I mean hell, Warlock's Roll is +Macc, despite the fact that the job has average skill ratings in most schools of magic.

I fail to see why RDM needs MAB III. Warlock's Roll is based on RDM Group 1 merits, which are merits for spell accuracy. This is similar to Drachen Roll being based on the DRG Group 2 Merits, Strafe. Drachen Roll didn't make sense when it came out, but when Group 2s came out, it did. Phantom Rolls, when there is no Job Trait or dimension to base them on, are sometimes based on job merits.

So while Magic Accuracy Bonus would be nice, I'm unsure of its necessity.

A trait that allows spellcasting while meleeing should belong to PLD.

A trait that allows spellcasting while meleeing should belong to PLD.

Agreed, but I think the two could share it (just give it to RDM at a higher level than PLD)


MAB III would help balance RDM out a little more in regards to BLM and SCH. It wasn't too bad being the 2nd best nuker in the game, but now RDM's been demoted to 3rd, and while another 4 MAB won't do a whole lot it's at least consistent with RDM's trait pattern (20,40, so why no 60?)

RDM shouldn't get Tier 4's, ever. But there's no reason they shouldn't get one final boost to their Tier 3's given their job trait pattern (And you can not honestly say that it would push RDM over the top >_>)

Malacite, if we were to get another tier of Magic Attack Bonus, because of a pettern, then I would at least like to see another tier of Magic Defense Bonus with it. -.-;

More from me later, again. Right now all I'll say is do (http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Denali_Jacket_Set) want (http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Homam_Corazza_Set).

:cry:

I would also like to see a Red Mage melee idea that didn't involve En-anything. It's as if our whole melee carrer is revolved around six relatively pointless spells. Sure, it's a nice concept, but sheesh!

I dont think PLD or RDM needs a trait to keep swinging as they cast personally I like BBQ's Idea and will expand on it in a moment.

However melee aside, which IMO isnt an issue its fairly effective as is just requires quite a bit of work to pull of well it could use some tweaks but I will cover this in a moment. RDM is badly in need of some type of MACC more then anything, wether it is a readjustment to merits to move refresh to group 2 merits to free up more ability to unlock more acc. I would much rather them remove our 2nd level MAB, and drop in a MACC. 10 points of MACC will greatly increase our MP/NUKE efficency and increase our jobs native jack of all trades persona (MDB,MAB,MACC). Or both.

Back to the topic of melee, I think that BBQ has the most logical idea, to increase the output to make us more involved but it should come at a penalty else where. Some type of job trait(s) that will cut down on our magic skills and increase our melee skills. Perhaps how like the WAR abilities work as BBQ pointed out.

1 ability on a 30's timer (like sublimation works)
activate and switch off at will after the 30's timer is up.

(im not good at making up names so someone can make one up)

-10% to all base magic skills (merits can increase this)
+10% to all base melee skills (Merits can increase this)

for the average RDM this would mean

276 enfeebling = 250
256 enhancing = 225
230 elemental = 207
220 Healing = 200
200 divine/DRK= 180

Dagger 250 = 275
Sword 250 = 275

lets just look att a couple with full merits

292 enfeebling = 266

266 sword = 292 sword

This would help solve our acc issue and increase our Atk rating

and possibly a 2nd ability

(again make up your own name)

30's (same principle as above)

takes 10% from base magical Stats (INT/MND/CHR) and adds 10% to base melee stats (STR/DEX/AGI)

so on my taru 74 (delevel ; ; )

INT 76 - 69
MND 60 - 54
CHR 61- 54

DEX 63-69
STR 53-58
AGI 63-69

I think that it is an effective trade off for a melee ability, which wont over power us as it weakens our magic and we cant have both at once. Which keeps the job in balance. That in conjuction with a straight up +10 from a MACC trait, and possibly more chance to spend on MACC in merits could lessen our reliance on the elemental staves. Alowing us to effectivley switch back and forth from melee mode to mage mode with out losing TP we gained from combat allowing us to WS, then switch to a staff for a MB if a SC is set up.

You know speaking of the En-spells it would be nice if SE changed it to a ga spell for RDM to cast that what we could help not just ourselves bet everyone in pty with additional attack. not right for every situation I am sure but imo it would, more or less ad one more thing that would make RDM a wanted addition to any pty. Not to say that we aren't already. Just going with the post of wat would be nice to have, sure it would probably make more work for us, but I for one wouldn't mid adding it into my normal routine of buffs as I prepare for a fight. At the very least the durration of the En-spell