Pondering COR/DNC build

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Well, finally polished of DNC as a sub and have DNC nearly ready for a static PT that will start in the coming weeks, much like SCH, I've taken quite a shine to it and enjoy the role.

And seeing as it extremely compatable with my existing COR gear, I see no reason not to do a little advance work on high level DNC gear since /DNC appears to work rather well with COR. Granted, it does mean giving up most of the gunplay I enjoy on COR, but at 75, I feel /DNC may be more suitable for merits, Limbus, Dynamis and Assaults than /WHM would be. For Gods/HNMs, mage subs still retain some advantages, but I have most of the MP gear I want already and will probably round out MP merits soon.

For COR/DNC, I'm thinking mostly of rehashing my /RNG build with a few tweaks:

- I keep all hats I use already, favoring Tricorne for QDs and then use Optical Hat and Walhra Turban as the situation calls for it.
- Switch out Crimson Finger Gauntlets for Dush Gloves
- Switch out Gun Belt for Swift Belt.
- Switch out War Boots for Dusk boots.
- Dusk Trousers stay for now, quest Ashu Talif for Barbossa Zerehs.
- Reobtain PCC, probably sell my Qiqirn Collar for good, I liked PCC better but sold it for Dusk Trousers.
- Earrings stay the same, but maybe favor Hollow Earring over Fenrir's Earring for /DNC, maybe finally get off my ass and get to work on getting Brutal earring. Suppanomimi stays constant for melee.
- Keep Raja's, substitute Sniper's Ring for Jalzhan's Ring,
- Back piece, stick with Amemet +1
- Stick to Joyeuse for main hand, maybe pick up a Mercurial Kris for 50 and 60 capped events.

So basically, I'm looking at a bigger haste and melee accuracy built and shedding ranged accuracy. QD Build would still be a fixture no matter what. To be honest, most of what I have right now is more than adequate to do the task, but since most of this stuff will also be used by DNC when it catches up, I see no harm in working toward it now if it gets me more out of the subjob.

[Callisto]

A haste build could solve some of your issues facing /DNC for sure, because the largest is definitely quick TP building, since you aren't usually getting Haste from a mage. You could fairly easily hit 15% equip haste with Dusk hands/feet, W. Turban, and Swift, although those are also slots where you could be stacking a solid 24~ Acc...this shouldn't be a huge deal with Sushi and average Hunter's rolls, you only need about 407 Accuracy to cap out hit rate on Colibri by my calculations. With the 15% Haste and 95% hit rate it'll take you about 40 seconds to get full TP w/ a Joyeuse on average(when you aren't being pulled away for Evoker's and whatnot), given the life span of an average merit mob that's about every other fight.

This would definitely put you into a pure support role, but I'm guessing that's what you're prepared for already. The main question I suppose is if it's worth giving up your DD potential for the MP-less support, and that really comes down to party setup. As /WAR last night I was averaging 1500 Slugs on Colibri, about 30% of the mob's health, and hitting as high as 2200 with full buffs. That's a lot of DD potential to be giving up.

In terms of larger events, one of my COR comrades in my LS is huge on /DNC now and usually uses it to most events, I suppose in larger fights you could still TP easily in your normal gear with Corsair Bullets(I know you have a heavy RAcc build, at least last I checked) and still be a reliable support with it, however in a fight like that I still would be inclined to use at least /RDM for the boost to QD, if not /BLM. In something with lots of small fodder mobs however, like Limbus/Dynamis it works very well.

Edit: Complete nitpicky sidenote, I don't think the Brutal is really neccesary, iirc more Double Attack slows down Joyeuse, but I might be wrong on that. 4 Acc is alot out of an earring, I'd stick with the Hollow + Suppa.

[IfritnoItazura]

iirc more Double Attack slows down Joyeuse, but I might be wrong on that.
Total derail, but why would Double Attack slow down Joyeuse?

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Well the Brutal is more of an investment toward DNC and BLU than COR, just something extra to have in case it did have any use to COR, such as the limited situations I'd offhand Joytoy as /NIN and mainhand something else. If it boosts my Double Attack rate for Joyeuse, if only a little, great, but I wasn't expecting much from it when I use Joy anyway.

I'm more unsure if Joy is a solid option for DNC main down the road. Though I do have suppa and full sword merits, that D rating in sword fro DNC still hurts a bit.

As for parties, yeah /RNG or /WAR will be your best bets for damage. But knowing how people are and have been about this job - meaning, mindlessly using /WHM and /NIN in EXP - I'd much, much rather use and promote /DNC as a sub than /WHM or /NIN for EXP.

/NIN is steadily becoming COR's ghetto subjob, I'd even rate /WHM over it, but /WHM gets so much in the way of COR's melee potential. If you're gonna sit there and count your gil like a shrewd bastard, if you don't want to spend money on bullets or level /RNG, then /DNC is going to be way more ideal than any mage sub because /DNC pretty much cannibalizes your potential to WS in the first place, at least, that is if you don't have a multi-hit weapon, in which case Slug Shot or Detonator may still be an option for you.

[Callisto]

Total derail, but why would Double Attack slow down Joyeuse?

I'm not sure honestly, I keep seeing things about DA slowing down non-Virtue Stone multihit weapons, and I've never seen a proper explanation for it, and it's been bothering the shit out of me. I think it has something to do with DA not being able to proc on the same swing as a Joy proc, but even then it doesn't make sense to me. At this point I just /huh about it, it's moot to me as I'm probably getting Musical next and saving Brutal for last.

BBQ -- in regards to Joy for DNC, yeah D rating hurts a good amount, I'd think it would be an acceptable offhander if you didn't have a Merc Kris though.

Edit: Let's have a looksie...210 cap, 231 with your merits/Suppa. Mithra DNC/NIN should have pretty high DEX, 76~. Assuming a 'normal' setup with what's out now:

Joyeuse
Optical Hat
Peacock Charm
Hollow Earring
Suppanomimi
Paluwhan Khazagand
Dusk Gloves
Rajas Ring
Sniper's/Woodsman Ring
Amemet Mantle +1
Potent Belt
Paluwhan Seraweels/Denali Kecks
Dusk Ledelsens


We'd be looking at +7/10 DEX, +48 Acc, and 5% Haste. This would leave you at about 340 base Acc with Acc Bonus II, 394 with HQ Sushi and no Madrigal/Hunter's...that's not bad actually.

[Sabaron]

Double attack slows down with Joyeuse because it cannot proc when Joyeuse's multi-hit procs. Virtue weapons on the other hand will proc Double Attack and multi-hit at the same time. Unfortunately, COR cannot use a Justice Sword.

As an aside, if there was a COR/DNC in my party, they'd get a Haste. Hell, if I was wearing Haste gear, I'd expect to have the spell too, and I'd ask for it. The amount of MP one Haste will save you when casting it on a Haste build COR/DNC is most likely greater than the cost of the periodic extra Haste cast.

[Callisto]

As an aside, if there was a COR/DNC in my party, they'd get a Haste. Hell, if I was wearing Haste gear, I'd expect to have the spell too, and I'd ask for it. The amount of MP one Haste will save you when casting it on a Haste build COR/DNC is most likely greater than the cost of the periodic extra Haste cast.

That part would seem obvious to me as well, but in practice I've seen that nearly all mages put COR last on the Haste list, which drives me batty, as dependant on subjob a COR could easily be the main DD in a party, or in this case close to the main healer.

Case in point, last night I was in a party, although it was a very, very good party, the RDM consistently had 9-10 MP/tick refresh and Hasted practically everyone in the party but me.
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Double attack slows down with Joyeuse because it cannot proc when Joyeuse's multi-hit procs. Virtue weapons on the other hand will proc Double Attack and multi-hit at the same time. Unfortunately, COR cannot use a Justice Sword.


Add: That's the explanation I was looking for, I think the issue is that I actually had it backwards. Joyeuse gimps DA I believe, not the other way around, as it procs so often that it rarely gives DA a chance to proc itself.
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Ok, my main issues with the /DNC set would be the TP build obviously, and what would be better for it, a Haste build like what you have up there, or an Accuracy build, mainly comparing the following:

Optical Hat
War Gloves
Potent Belt
Crimson Greaves

vs.

Walahra Turban
Dusk Gloves
Swift Belt
Dusk Ledelsens

Basically, 23 Acc and 3 DEX vs. 14% Haste. Going off of my gear/stats, in the Acc setup I'd have about 93%~ Hit Rate with Sushi, with the Haste setup I'd have 81%~. I'm still a bit new to figuring this stuff out, but I think I'm doing it correctly...

You need 17 hits to hit 100% TP with a Joyeuse(16 with Rajas). With 93% Acc you'd need to allow for 19 hits, 21 hits @ 81% Acc. Allowing for a 50% proc on the Joyeuse, that's 13 attack rounds vs. 14.

With 224 delay Joyeuse attack rounds occur roughly every 3.73 seconds, 3.20s with 14% Haste. So we're looking at 48.49s~ for full TP using the Acc setup, 44.8s~ using the Haste setup. This should be an even more pronounced difference if someone tosses you a Haste spell, 41.21s~ for the Acc setup vs. 36.96s~, only a second more, but more Haste(March) would even further compound it. In terms of pure TP building speed it would look like the Haste set wins out over the heavier Acc build. I'm not sure if it's enough of a difference to drop 1.6m~ on Dusk pieces and deal with the pain of actually getting a Swift Belt to drop instead of sticking to Acc gear that you already have/is easy to get, but if you already had them it would be the way to go(or, as in your case, you'd use them for something other than COR later on).

Disclaimers: I haven't had any coffee today, I'm new to figuring out TP/Delay calculations, and there needs to be some leeway given for the fact that your swings will get held up by PR/QD every so often, but I think I'm going about all that math correctly, and that the basic point of the 14% Haste winning over the 24 Acc seems correct.

[Kylen]

/DNC looks like it's going to be a very useful subjob for COR; mine's currently 15 but once I get it higher I'm pretty sure it'll become my default subjob for Nyzul Assault, Limbus, and Salvage, 3 places where I often go /WHM. It'll also make soloing in Campaign a lot easier.

A /DNC melee build would be the same as any optimal melee TP build; focus first on accuracy and once that's capped, Haste. Capping accuracy won't be hard at all with sushi, and you get a nice +10 accuracy job trait from subbing /DNC as well. Dusk Gloves, Dusk Feet, Swift Belt, W. Turban, and Skadi/Barbarossa Legs will all be extremely useful as COR/DNC, and you should not hesitate to ask for Haste from the RDM of WHM; as a healer/status remover your TP gain is more important than any other melee in the party besides whoever's tanking.

Double attack slows down with Joyeuse because it cannot proc when Joyeuse's multi-hit procs. Virtue weapons on the other hand will proc Double Attack and multi-hit at the same time. Unfortunately, COR cannot use a Justice Sword.
Add: That's the explanation I was looking for, I think the issue is that I actually had it backwards. Joyeuse gimps DA I believe, not the other way around, as it procs so often that it rarely gives DA a chance to proc itself.
You got it right in that 2nd quote there. Double Attack doesn't gimp Joyuese at all, but Joyeuse cuts down DA's effectiveness by 50%. So basically, if you use a Brutal Earring with a Joyeuse, you're getting 2.5% double attack instead of 5%. However, 2.5% double attack is still better for TP gain than just about anything else you can equip in that slot, so I'd still recommend using Brutal if you have one.

And no one says you have to be 100% support as COR/DNC either. If you're not the only healer/status remover in the party, you should easily be able to build up enough extra TP to fire off some Slugs. The nice thing about /DNC as opposed to /WHM is you don't have to sacrifice any of your normal DD or TP gain gear for it to work well.

On HNM's we're still better off going /WHM or /RDM, but /DNC looks like it's going to be an extremely viable subjob for us in many other situations.

[Callisto]

And no one says you have to be 100% support as COR/DNC either. If you're not the only healer/status remover in the party, you should easily be able to build up enough extra TP to fire off some Slugs. The nice thing about /DNC as opposed to /WHM is you don't have to sacrifice any of your normal DD or TP gain gear for it to work well.

That's actually a fantastic point, lol. I think that alone just convinced me to work on my DNC sub starting tonight.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Way I was looking at it was that I get to enfeeble, DD, Cure, buff and Slug reliably all in one package and never have to use mage gear.

Would be nice to know if Wind Shot affects Desperate Flourish. Does anyone know if Desparate Flourish is a pure form of Gravity? All I know is that you can't stack DF with Gravity.

At any rate, I've had good fun fooling around with /DNC in campaign and other things so far. I think its going to work out to my intentions.

[Callisto]

So far as I know QD doesn't noticeably do anything to Gravity anyways, so it might be a moot point(I've definitely never noticed a nice boost to Silence/Gravity duration when a COR has used QD on it.) I think only variable potency debuffs(Blind/Slow/Paralyze/DoTs) see any good out of QD shots, I wouldn't think that DF gets any noticeable boost from it.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

OK, got to play around with the combo quite a bit more today.

First off, Box Step tosses COR an element that Acid Bolts give RNG - Defense Down, that's pretty nice itself, but then you can lower mob evasion with Quickstep, helping land WS if you have an opportunity to do so.

Had a blast trioing with a SAM and WAR, just roaming around killing whatever we came cross, even able to handle Ts pretty easily. Managing Healing in Trio works well enough, little more diffcult if you're the sole healer in a standard PT. With or with SAM present, its obscenely easy to get TP back quickly for whatever you need after you WS, you just have to be watchful of when you choose to WS.

Overall, its a bit busier than other forms of COR and, not to goad RDMs, but it feels a lot like RDM could have been, minus some enfeebles and plus the gun.

[LilithAngel]

Hmmm, I'll see about giving this a try during some Campaigns sometime. Never thought about using this combo.

Gha, I still need to get a Joytoy. :angry:

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Update brought two nice pieces for /DNC build and pretty nice for DNC main, too.

Cobra Unit Cap
DEF: 22 Accuracy +4
"Store" TP +2
Enmity -4
Lv. 68 MNK/THF/RNG/BLU/COR/PUP/DNC

Cobra Unit Mittens
DEF: 13 Accuracy +4
"Store" TP +3
Enmity -3
Lv. 68 MNK/THF/RNG/BLU/COR/PUP/DNC

Definately an option for -Enmity build and goes nice with Rajas Ring and the newly added Ecphoria Ring. Guess this could nudge me more strongly to the Dusk boots for this setup.

------------------------------------

Finally got some group experience with /DNC. It worked very well in small groups and I went to merit it with Selphiie's BRD against trolls. Our main heal was PUP/WHM and I almost could swear he could have come /WAR and just set his automation to Soulsoother, his MP was hardly needed. PUP insisted /DNC wasn't good for him, which I had a hard time believing.

I still got to jump in and WS and SC in places, though it wasn't as frequent, I probably used more cards than bullets the entire PT.

[Callisto]

I got lucky and got an Ecphoria Ring already, but I overlooked the CU Mittens, that's a great replacement of my War Gloves in my TP set, are those from Windy?

Edit: More importantly, are they R/E?

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Yeah they're for Windurst. 40k Allied notes each. I don't think I'm gonna make any plan to change affilations until all this gear gets out, but SE has put some great incentives out there to switch nations if you want to.

[Callisto]

From what I understand you don't lose your rank or AN when you change, but you do if you change back to a previous nation...those are really nice gloves but I'm sure if I really want to go with being dropped from Holyknight Emblem back to Brass Ribbon, that's kind of a steep penalty. :(

Add: From BG:

when you switch back you lose your top 2 rank key items ones(holyknight/SteelKnight) and keep the rest.

That's not so bad actually, I think I may just switch to Windy tonight for the gloves then switch back, I was about to lose my HE anyways if I didn't put in some heavy Campaign in the next 3 days.

[Kylen]

I'm tempted to switch to Windy now too; Cobra Unit Mittens look great for any COR that doesn't have Dusk Gloves for melee.

Also, just for Joyeuse-owners, here are the amounts of Store TP that you'd need to reduce your number of Joyeuse swings to reach 100% TP:

Joyeuse: 224 delay, 6.06 tp/hit, 16.5(17) hits to hit 100 with no Store TP.
16 hits: +3.1(4) store TP
15 hits: 10 store TP
14 hits: 17.8(18) store TP
13 hits: 26.9(27) store TP
12 hits: 37.5(38) store TP
11 hits: 50 Store TP

So with just Ecphoria Ring + Cobra Unit Mittens, we get a 16 swing build instead of 17. Add Rajas Ring and Chivalrous Chain, and we get it down to a 15 swing build. Get Skadi Legs and Cobra Unit Cap on top of that, and we get a 14 swing build.

[Callisto]

AFAIK TP #'s are always floored to 1 decimal place at each step(i.e. Joy = 6.0/swing base), so you'd need +5 to get a 16-hit build(that sounds funny to say around my SAM friends), +4 leaves you just short. I can test it out though, I have both the Cobra Mittens and the Ecphoria Ring, I'll try to do that tonight.

Edit: I actually really, really hope I'm wrong here lol, I don't want to have to buy another Chivalrous Chain because it's going to be a nightmare to figure out how to work it into my macros.
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Finally got some group experience with /DNC. It worked very well in small groups and I went to merit it with Selphiie's BRD against trolls. Our main heal was PUP/WHM and I almost could swear he could have come /WAR and just set his automation to Soulsoother, his MP was hardly needed. PUP insisted /DNC wasn't good for him, which I had a hard time believing.

I still got to jump in and WS and SC in places, though it wasn't as frequent, I probably used more cards than bullets the entire PT.

How were your Waltzes as /DNC, and did you do anything special for them(i.e. CHR build)?

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

The "nerfing" to /DNC in the update was very minor, but even with that nerfage, I've seen little to no point in bringing CHR gear, maybe use a CHR sushi if it comes down to it, but I didn't see the need so I kept with the usual foods. I'm mithra and bottom rung with Galka for CHR, so if it wasn't a big impact even there, I'm not gonna worry about CHR as /DNC. I hardly worry about it as DNC main anyway.

And, I'm eyeballing this, but my waltzes for the average melee or NIN as COR/DNC were mid 160s pre-update and now low 160 or high 150s. PLD I still get the near the equivalant of a Cure III. Still more than enough for a decent cure.

[Callisto]

Awesome, I was pretty worried that I was going to put all this work into leveling the sub only to find out my Waltz II cured for 100. Hit 24 last night, 13 to go!

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Think of DNC's cures in terms COR's Chaos Roll, the Attack Bonus percentages of Chaos Roll values scale with the players comprable to the COR's level, not by a skill level, so as you and your allies level up, get CHR and VIT, your Waltzes will get better.

[Callisto]

The funny thing is, the one event I actually began leveling COR/DNC for I can't even use it in now, I'm pretty much cemented as main healer for Nyzul Isle now, so I only really get to use COR/DNC in Limbus...but I'd hate to not finish something I started, so I'm going to plow through and get the sub done.

[MrMageo]

I have noticed that sambas last a shorter duration, and steps are less accurate when subbed now. Not much of a change but about 5 seconds off samabas.
Also have you had the opportunity to test sch or dnc rolls currious to the effects strength and if its more powerful when a sch or dnc is in group.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

no tests on SCH roll as far as I know, but DNC Roll's effects have been convered in another thread. DNC in PT give +3 HP a tick to the Regen Effect and 11 on DNC gives 14 HP per tick. So with DNC thats 17 per tick on 11s.

[MrMageo]

wow thats pretty sexy

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Cobra Unit Mittens: O

They vaguely resemble the DRK Relic hands and fit the mostly purple motif of my current build, which works out nicely.

Was a bitch writing the piece into my /RNG and /DNC macros, though. I had kept CFGs static on the hand slot until now.

[Callisto]

These replaced War Gloves for me in my TP set macro, the sucky part is finally admitting that my Corsair's Frac is now just town gear, and doesn't really have a place in any of my actual equipment macros anymore. Paluwhan body just doesn't look as good to stand in. :/

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Well, I can just make pahluwhan body work >.> It just comes at the cost of walking really, really slow in dusk trousers. But then, my character is a mithra, so it all just looks fashionable on her :P

[Callisto]

I finally did get around to testing it, and yeah, Cobra Mittens + Ecphoria Ring leaves you at 99% after 16 swings. You'd need to tack on the Cobra hat or a Chiv Chain in order to get a 16-hit build, and both of those options mean giving up 10 RAcc on your TP build, kind of tossing around on what to do with this atm.

Edit: Durrr, I was forgetting about Brutal Earring. Brutal/Cobra Mittens/Ecphoria would give you a 16-hit build, without needing to trade in PCC/OHat for ChivChain/Cobra Cap, so there's no need to lose any acc or racc.

46 coins to go til Brutal, and if RDM thread drops I still have to upgrade body, then worry about Musical. :(

More edit: You could actually hit 15-hit build if you have Rajas, you need +12 Store TP to reach it. Rajas/Ecphoria/Brutal/Cobra Mittens/Cobra Cap would put you there.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

: You could actually hit 15-hit build if you have Rajas, you need +12 Store TP to reach it. Rajas/Ecphoria/Brutal/Cobra Mittens/Cobra Cap would put you there.

This was more or less my plan, given I already had the Rajas. Its just I have so many damn hats as it is :rofl:

Optical Hat
Corsair's Tricorne
Walhra Turban
And then Cobra Unit cap when I have the AN for it.

I'm just waiting for the Ecphoria Ring to drop in price, I loate camping NMs that pop in large radius. Well, I just hate camping any NM, really.

I suppose the question now would be is if its totally worth giving up the Turban and perhaps moving Haste gear priority to legs and feet to make it back up. I have the Swift Belt and Walhra turban for Haste, I'm looking at Dusk boots and want to get back on to doing Ashu Talif #3 runs again for Barbossa Zerehs.

[Callisto]

Finally finished my DNC sub and got to play around a bit last night...fighting DC Flamingos in Sky w/ SAM and DNC rolls I was soloing them handily, not able to keep HP in the white as much as I'd like due to Waltz recast timer, but still was able to keep myself alive and fire off Slugs without problems, 86 XP a pop. Solo capability was infinitely greater than /mage. WS damage was a tad low, but I was also not using any food or DRK roll.

Tonight will be the first real test of it @ Sky triggers, I intend to use this primarily for that and normal Limbus runs, but for those specific uses it seems fantastic already.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

I've had the opportunity to do COR/DNC in Dynamis thus far and I'm slowly expanding back into other parts of endgame. For Dynamis and Limbus, its not all that different from how you'd use it in Campaign or EXP.

One aspect I like is that even if I do get placed in something like a BLM PT, I can still do something useful for the other parts of the alliance with Steps.

Solo-wise DNC does get rid of that annoying need for MP and, instead, you can just use Light Shot to pause battles to recover HP instead of both HP and MP. Hpemdes were handing me my ass though, so I'm gonna stick with /BLU for certain solo spots.

I've been using /DNC a ton for Nyzul as well and barring those nasty pathos, it seems to work quite well. We got stuck with a No White Magic boss fight and, well, not even me with 300 TP was enough to save us there. So yeah you White Magic users, you're still needed.

[Kylen]

My DNC is 30 so hopefully I'll trying it out as sub soon too for COR. I think it will be very nice in Nyzul and Campaign, and possibly Dynamis. However, since I'm in the BLM party 90% of the time in Dynamis, /WHM tends to work perfectly well there since I have Evoker's on 100% of the time and sometimes even Refresh if the RDM is feeling generous, so I pretty much never run low on mp for cures and Erase/status removal. Stoneskin is extremely nice to have in Dynamis, too. The accuracy bonus from /DNC would be nice in there, but I'm still on the fence as to whether it would be worth the loss of damage by using my TP for cures rather than Slugs.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

OK, after several weeks of playing around with COR/DNC, here's my verdict on teh combo:

Its very, very hectic and admittedly lowers your personal damage output. However, you gain a lot of support power in exchange and additional flexibility to your buff cycles by using Sambas and Steps, helping other Phantom Rolls become more viable where Chaos or Hunter's might normally be used. Conversely, it also makes Hunter's and Chaos even more potent to use, which can be very useful for annoyingly evasive THF or NIN mobs.

Drain Samba II adds another layer of melee damage output, which compliments Chaos Roll and Boxstep nicely. Aspir Samba makes PTs with frontline MP users much more practical for COR, the only catch being you need to fight mobs that have MP, which isn't too much of an issue

The combo takes a lot of disicpline to use, if you're an experienced RDM, for example, I think you could slip into COR/DNC and do just fine. Those unfamilar with how busy a job such as RDM could be, along with being unfamilar with gearing for melee functions, should probably steer clear of using this combo, but otherwise, its is extremely effective.

The use of Mercurial Kris or Joyeuse is highly advised, as is the use of sushi. Shooting for TP with this combo is far too slow and deadly to PT members who may be in need of a cure. To make /DNC work, you need fast TP gain and theres no better items than MK or Joytoy for that end.

-Enmity, Haste and Store TP gear are all very useful. If you don't find yourself with many opportites to WS, use a Peacemaker for more -Enmity and AGI and just use Quick Draws to help with crowd-control as needed. If you have the MK in the 50s, persue some crow/raven gear for hands and legs, though AF legs are also acceptable for -enmity. Cobra Unit Mittens and Cobra Unit cap are great options, Rajas + Ecphoria Ring are also nice, if you have Dusk Glaves and boots with Walhra Turban and Swift/Speed Belt, even better.

I found myself able to keep up in all merit PTs with /DNC thus far. I've also done Dynamis and Nyzul Isle runs with the combo and its worked out fairly well. /DNC makes COR a good asset to alliance melee PTs.

While COR is undisputed in terms of mage support, /DNC's Steps can still be of use to the melee side of an alliance even if the COR is in a mage PT. The only con in this respect is that Curing Waltzes will not cross over to other PTs, but if you have a DNC main in one of the other alliance PTs use Stutter Step to lower magic defense on the mob, then COR/DNC can use Quick Step or Boxstep for the melees.

For gods and HNMs, /DNC is less practical. However, I still find the use of /WHM to be irksome and mindless in application. Right now, I personally feel /WHM is obseleted by /SCH for CORs and its my next subjob project for COR.

Overall, I'm tempted to to place /DNC just ahead of /RNG at 60+ because it puts COR into a full support role in a much more complimentary fashion than I've ever found /WHM to be.

There are no conflicts of interest in melee/mage gear when you use /DNC, you just use the melee gear. There are still opportunities to WS as /DNC, though much more rare. The Accuracy Bonus from DNC compliments CORs need for accuracy and Quick Step helps you lower mob evasion, improving your situation on accuracy even more. Box Step lets COR enjoy what Crossbow RNGs enjoy - defense down effects, which can stack with things like Dia II (which COR can enhance via Light Shot), Acid Bolts/Angon and Wild Oats, making things deadlier for a mob.

Overall, COR/DNC feels like a combat oriented RDM. I don't say that to thumb my nose at melee RDMs, but in contrast to RDM or BRD using DNC, COR just uses it much more effectively in party play than those jobs could.

[Kylen]

I found myself able to keep up in all merit PTs with /DNC thus far. I've also done Dynamis and Nyzul Isle runs with the combo and its worked out fairly well. /DNC makes COR a good asset to alliance melee PTs.
By "keep up", do you mean that you were able to main heal in merit parties without any mages there for backup? Most meripos do just fine with only a RDM or WHM healing, so unless COR/DNC can actually replace them with the amount of healing they provide, I'd probably sub something else for meripo.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

By "keep up" I clearly meant keeping up on TP. I never said anything about main healing. Dunno where you got that from unless you were skimming the post. The cases in which I've done meritpo as /DNC, thus far, have been with SCHs or RDMs on main heal.

If I didn't make it clear enough, I liken COR/DNC to my original experience as a RDM - a balance of buffing, enfeebling, CC and healing and not just an exclusive focus on healing. COR/DNC is about using the sub to extend the advantage of you buffs and provide supplementary healing.

Don't make the mistake about /DNC that people commonly make of /WHM - neither are just about being a curebot. These subjobs can mean different things to different jobs. For a SAM, /DNC is about extending thier damage in an altruistic way and getting some more accuracy in a PT setting, not to mention capitalize on Meditate and Store TP. For a BST, /DNC means another subjob option for times they EXP in environments where Arcana mobs are present, to which /WHM would be detrimental and /NIN might not present enough advantages while a pet is tanking. For PLD, NIN or even WAR, its all about more enmity tools via Curing Waltzes and increasing thier accuracy with Steps.

For COR, again, I compare the experience to the classic RDM experience - not the ToA Pink Mage experience. I use the Steps and Sambas to either extend the advantage of the buffs I have or use the steps to liberate me from needing to use Chaos or Hunter's Roll in certain situations.

The ability to cure, quite frankly, is just a bonus. If you're hoarding away TP to cure, something is wrong. You should have enough room to WS every now and then.

[Callisto]

So far I've gotten good results for Limbus and Sky, really my main issue has been that COR by nature is somewhat busy to begin with, and sometimes I find myself running out of time to do a 3-4 roll rotation and remember to regularly use Sambas/Steps.

WS damage is still relatively decent, not /WAR #'s by any means but on par with /RNG. In terms of actually healing well, 2 issues with healing as COR/DNC I've found are Waltz recast timers sometimes being a bit high when you take into account that Healing/Curing share the same timer, and at times pulling hate with the cures, and of course COR does not take damage well, which leads me to cure more, vicious cycle til mob dies, yada yada. On the plus side in that respect, I've gotten some Parrying skillups out of it, lol.

As far as the best possible application for /DNC, really I think it's best suited for Nyzul Isle above all else, Spectral Jig can be a big deal there. Limbus is very nice when healing is low and I don't want to sponge, Sky is rather nice again due to Spectral, though I find myself often missing Wide Scan. Dynamis I couldn't tell you b/c it'll be a cold day in Ifrit's Cauldron when I don't have to go RDM.

[Kylen]

As far as the best possible application for /DNC, really I think it's best suited for Nyzul Isle above all else, Spectral Jig can be a big deal there.
Yeah I agree there, Nyzul was the main reason I started leveling /DNC for COR in the first place. Unfortunately, my DNC is still 30 and we're almost maxed out on gear from Nyzul now and have started to move on to Salvage (where /WHM is unquestionably better IMO, especially on chariot bosses), so I may be a bit late :/.

[Callisto]

I'm the main healer for Nyzul so I'm not coming off of RDM anytime soon, my static won't let me come COR again because the only time I did, I didn't expect the melee temprorary items to be so strong, and dropped Slug > Wing > Slug > Barrage > Deto w/ full buffs up, nearly flailed a Faf and got myself pwned in the face. :(

Stupid drinks.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

If your first impulse is to cure someone the very moment they hit yellow or pre-yellow, I think you just need to hang it up on any curative job or subjob. Its detrimental to PLDs to and the use of latents if you constantly cure in this fashion - which people do actually want to use. They people sit there and wonder why they have so much hate and so little TP/MP.

I mean, dammit Jim, I'm battle medic, not a doctor. I'm here to keep you alive, healthy is a completely different matter. If you're really so cure-happy, at least drop a Regen first if you're /WHM. If the melees are so glad to rip hate every chance they get, I'm just content to let you die.

I've never pulled enough hate on /DNC unless it was compeltely intentional - meaning Campaign/

As for Spectral Jig...

lolSpectralJig.

Seriously, guys Items/Tool Sneak and Invis > JA/White Magic Sneak and Invis, always and forever.

Efficiency > novelty, just spend the gil. I already pimp slap melee at looking at mages for freebies, I'm not going to always look to my subjob for one.

I might use Spectral Jig for the invis briefly, but I'll have used a silent oil before hand because lamp floors are almost always surrounding by sound aggro mobs, if there are mobs near lamps at all.

Other situations, I'll be damned if I'm gonna stop every 30 seconds to recast Spectral Jig, I'll just gonna pop the oil and powder and be done with it.

[Kylen]

If your first impulse is to cure someone the very moment they hit yellow or pre-yellow, I think you just need to hang it up on any curative job or subjob.
Who said anything about that?

As for Spectral Jig...

lolSpectralJig.

Seriously, guys Items/Tool Sneak and Invis > JA/White Magic Sneak and Invis, always and forever.
I would never argue that Spectral Jig is the main reason to use /DNC in Nyzul, but you can't argue that it's not nice to have a near-instant job ability that gives you both sneak and invis when you're in a time-sensitive situation. 30 seconds is usually enough time in Nyzul to sneak by whatever's in your way.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Who said anything about that?

Callisto talked about the "vicious cycle" of curing yourself when you got hate.

Simple solution - don't cure yourself just because you got hate - leave that to the Paladins, it does nothing positive if you're not tanking. Taking damage reduces enmity you've drawn. Crap defense or not, just stand there and take it. When the mob finally turns, back off let somone get a regen on you.

I would never argue that Spectral Jig is the main reason to use /DNC in Nyzul, but you can't argue that it's not nice to have a near-instant job ability that gives you both sneak and invis when you're in a time-sensitive situation. 30 seconds is usually enough time in Nyzul to sneak by whatever's in your way.

Maybe so, but I'd argue the contrary on lamp floors. Time spent running off to the side to recast anything can be costly, as you may miss opportunities to light spec. order lamps, wasting time. Its better to use what's most effective rather than use whats convienient.

[Celeal]

IMHO, Spectral Jig is decent for pulling (looking for mobs) in certain Exp Camp or in Campaign. For other stuff that requires sneak/invisible, it is better with silent oil, etc...

[Callisto]

Something I realized that I hadn't before, for COR TP building in general...

While you need 5 Store TP to shave a hit off of 0>100 TP, you need 7 to shave a hit off WS>100TP assuming a Martial Gun with a 16.8 return. If you have Rajas that's easy, either tack on any 2 of Ecphoria/Brutal/Chiv or nab Cobra Mittens.

Without Rajas you have a slightly tougher choice though, you'd need to use a Cobra Unit Cap, and I'm not sure which would be better between shaving off that one swing or the 5% Haste of the W.Turban, but I need about 120k worth of Sandy AN stuff so it'll be a bit before I go back to Windy for the cap.

Note that Skadi legs will set you on their own.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Yeah, I have the Raja's + Cobra Hands, which seems to be enough, though I suppose I'm just going after the Cap since I have nothing better to do with my AN and there could be more Store TP as future pieces of the set are released, which would be nice options for DNC main regardless.

In any case, I like more options. I already have Turban and O-Hat, but I'm sure I'll find a use for CU Cap at some point.

[Callisto]

Sometimes I wish Tamas Ring wasn't so stupidly useful for RDM, because I feel the hurt missing Rajas on COR.

At any rate I figured out the #'s for no Rajas, and it seems to pretty much entirely depend on the distribution of Joyeuse procs, but I think just sticking to Turban would typically win out.

[Kylen]

Yup, I did a bunch of Store TP calculations for COR and posted them in this guide a few days ago:

Allakhazam.com: Final Fantasy XI: Corsair (http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/db/jobs.html?fjob=17;mid=1207866818283335409;num=1;pa ge=1)

Note that if you have a Rajas Ring, you're most likely weaponskilling in it, so you'll be getting 17.6 TP back from Slug Shot instead of 16.8, meaning you only need 6 Store TP to hit 100% TP again in 13 hits. That's easily done with just Brutal Earring, so there's no need to sacrifice valuable Haste gear for Cobra Unit Gloves or Hat to pull this off.

Of course if you have Skadi Legs, you're all set and don't need any more Store TP to reach the first tier (just got mine last week ^^).

It should be noted that out of all of our Store TP armor, the only ones that are good for firing Slug Shot in are Rajas Ring and Skadi Legs. Therefore, in order to reach the 2nd tier of Store TP (15 hits starting from 0 TP, 12 hits after Slug Shot), you really need both Rajas Ring and Skadi Legs to pull it off without sacrificing a lot of r.acc or STR for Stpre TP in other slots for Slug. With both of them, you meet the 12 Store TP requirement to hit 100% in 15 hits starting from 0, and you only need 13 Store TP (add Brutal Earring) to reach 100% TP in 12 hits after Slug Shot.

Sometimes I wish Tamas Ring wasn't so stupidly useful for RDM, because I feel the hurt missing Rajas on COR.
I feel your pain, dude. I got Tamas Ring for my WHM ages ago, and I can't imagine giving it up since I still get so much use out of it. I'd love to be able to hit the 2nd Store TP tier with my new Skadi Legs, but I'm not willing to start Slug Shotting in Cobra Unit gear to pull it off :(.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Got the Cap finally tonight and after a few rounds the findings stated above are consistant. Its headed to storage for a TP build for DNC. The cap was really for DNC in the first place, the mittens actually still have some worthwhile use for COR, at least til you could replace them with Dusk.

This could possible change once the rest of the Cobra Unit sets get out, time will tell, but i think this set is gonna be more for DNC than any other job, maybe PUP as well.

Now to start work on getting that Raparee Harness for DNC... then hopefully I never have to look at a Fomor again save for a swift belt on my Taru.

OH, BTW...

/kisses Raja's Ring :D

[Temagori]

I'm curious, honestly, to what exactly /DNC brings to the table that makes it a decent sub aside from the lack of mp needed for it's abilities.

[Callisto]

I'm curious, honestly, to what exactly /DNC brings to the table that makes it a decent sub aside from the lack of mp needed for it's abilities.

That is the main attraction, being that in events where you can build TP easily such as Dynamis/Limbus/Sky farming, etc. you do not have to give up a huge chunk of your damage output potential by giving up melee gear for MP gear the way you do as /mage, also expanding the benefit to putting a COR in a DD party, where both the COR can benefit from being able to keep DD rolls on full time, and the DDs can benefit from having a decent backup healer and Sambas/Steps.

The minor perks include the Accuracy Bonus and Resist Slow traits, as well as no MP to muddle with your Uggalepih Pendant latent on Quick Draw like there is with /WHM, as well as not having your healing abilities shut down by Silence(and regardless of what BBQ tells you Spectral Jig is the shit :P )

In fights where you cannot reliably build TP due to hard to a target that is very difficult to hit or it is better to keep TP feed to a minimum, /mage is still a preferable source of party support, but for the events that toss easier fodder mobs not having MP to worry about or gimping your damage with MP gear is very nice.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Seems like the new Cobra Unit Pieces are actually a lot better for thier slots than the Cobra Unit Mittens and Cap were, very similar stats:

Cobra Subligar
DEF:26 Accuracy+5 "Store TP"+3 Enmity-4 Set: Enhances "Counter" effect
Lv. 68 MNK/THF/RNG/BLU/COR/PUP/DNC

Cobra Leggings
DEF:10 Accuracy+4 "Store TP"+4 Enmity-3 Set: Enhances "Counter" effect
Lv. 68 MNK/THF/RNG/BLU/COR/PUP/DNC

I'm gonna put up my Dusk Trousers for Dusk Glove and work on getting this subligar first, I think. I really never feel the loss of ranged accuracy when I put on my War Brais over Dusk Trousers, anyway. I'll grab the leggings until I get my hands on Dusk, Skadi or Enkidu's Leggings.

The Enkidu set has some potential as well:

Enkidu's Cap
DEF:23 DEX+3 AGI+3 Accuracy+8 Ranged Accuracy+8 "Subtle Blow"+2
Lv. 72 MNK/THF/RNG/SAM/NIN/BLU/COR/PUP/DNC

Enkidu's Mittens
DEF:24 STR+4 DEX+4 Accuracy+5 Ranged Accuracy+5 "Subtle Blow"+2
Lv. 72 MNK/THF/RNG/SAM/NIN/BLU/COR/PUP/DNC

Enkidu's Harness
DEF:50 STR+5 AGI+5 Accuracy+10 Attack+10 Evasion+5 "Subtle Blow"+5
Lv. 72 MNK/THF/RNG/SAM/NIN/BLU/COR/PUP/DNC

Enkidu's Subligar
DEF:40 STR+4 DEX+4 "Store TP"+5 "Subtle Blow"+5
Lv. 72 MNK/THF/RNG/SAM/NIN/BLU/COR/PUP/DNC

Enkidu's Leggings
DEF:23 DEX+3 AGI+3 Attack+4 Ranged Attack+4 "Subtle Blow"+2 Haste+2%
Lv. 72 MNK/THF/RNG/SAM/NIN/BLU/COR/PUP/DNC

Seems like a hybrid of Dusk and Pahluwhan on the feet, not to mention it reduces Crimson Greaves to a /mage piece. The subligar more of a melee-oriented Skadi. Some good options for melee TP/Detonator build.

Also say hello to Skadi/Crimson movement speed alternative:

Hermes' Sandals
DEF:17 HP+12 Evasion+5 Enmity+3 Movement speed +12%
Lv. 70 WAR/MNK/COR/PUP

The catch? Need Ixion's tale to craft it, it seems.

[Kylen]

Yeah, the new Cobra gear looks pretty good for meleeing in for any COR that doesn't have Skadi feet/legs. I can't want to see what stats the body piece has.

Some of the Enkidu's gear looks nice, too. Cap's so-so, basically just a replacement for O-hat. Mittens are decent for melee with +7 acc., but I'd rather weaponskill and shoot in Crimson or Skadi Hands. Enkidu's Subligar is a decent weaponskill piece if your r.acc is capped (probably better for Detonator than Slug Shot) but sucks as a melee piece.

Enkidu Leggings are awesome for melee, though; I'd take them over Dusk any day for meleeing in. And Enkidu's Harness is a freaking Haubergeon for COR. :cool:

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Enkidu Leggings are awesome for melee, though; I'd take them over Dusk any day for meleeing in. And Enkidu's Harness is a freaking Haubergeon for COR. :cool:

Yeah, theese are the main ones I'm looking at. I'm gonna see if I can static some of these new ToA NMs with friends and go after those two pieces in particular.

[Callisto]

Kind of on topic, I finally finished my Sword merits, and the account I inherited had Dusk Hands/Feet, while I'm still waiting at a shot for my Swift Belt I have gone ahead and switched to the Haste build, and it is certainly hot, both for merits and for COR/DNC.

And yeah, those leggings are extremely attractive, especially for the Rajas-less(me). That's

I'm not sure I'd give up Paluwhan body for the Harness though, as I like being able to use the same body piece for TPing via both melee and shooting. However it would be a nice substitute for a Blue Cotehardie if you're stuck using one of those for WS/QD. If anything I'd rather have this:

Antares Harness
DEF:50 HP+15 DEX+8 AGI+8 Accuracy+8 Evasion+8
Lv. 71 WAR/MNK/RDM/THF/DRK/BRD/NIN/BLU/COR/PUP/DNC

The Enkidu Mittens are also pretty nice if you don't do a Haste build for TP...otherwise the new pieces I'm aiming for are the Crapaud Earring for QD and maybe a Cuchulain's Mantle for TP.

I'm still somewhat disappointed that there has still been nothing added that can really top Martial Gun or Coffinmaker, aside from the statless Death Penalty with some pretty insane requirements to attain from what's known so far.

[Kylen]

I'm not sure I'd give up Paluwhan body for the Harness though, as I like being able to use the same body piece for TPing via both melee and shooting. However it would be a nice substitute for a Blue Cotehardie if you're stuck using one of those for WS/QD. If anything I'd rather have this:

Antares Harness
DEF:50 HP+15 DEX+8 AGI+8 Accuracy+8 Evasion+8
Lv. 71 WAR/MNK/RDM/THF/DRK/BRD/NIN/BLU/COR/PUP/DNC
Wouldn't you swap Antares out for shooting, too? Besides the +3 AGI advantage that the Antares Harness has over Enkidu's for Quick Draw, it looks like the main difference between them is +2 accuracy on Antares (from the DEX), and +12.5 attack/+5 Subtle Blow on Enkidu's from a pure melee standpoint. 2 accuracy is nice with our B- sword skill, but for me the relative bonuses from Enkidu's look better.

The Enkidu Mittens are also pretty nice if you don't do a Haste build for TP...otherwise the new pieces I'm aiming for are the Crapaud Earring for QD and maybe a Cuchulain's Mantle for TP.
Holy shit, I totally missed that one for COR when I was skimming the .dat thread. I glanced at it and thought "Hmm, nice earring for any BLM without a Novio" and moved on without even thinking about the fact that COR could wear it. That's definitely going on my want-list now :). Cape looks pretty hot too for my accuracy build macro.

[Callisto]

Wouldn't you swap Antares out for shooting, too? Besides the +3 AGI advantage that the Antares Harness has over Enkidu's for Quick Draw, it looks like the main difference between them is +2 accuracy on Antares (from the DEX), and +12.5 attack/+5 Subtle Blow on Enkidu's from a pure melee standpoint. 2 accuracy is nice with our B- sword skill, but for me the relative bonuses from Enkidu's look better.

Yeah, either one I'd use only for melee TP and QD as a nice 2-in-1 piece, in which case I'd give preference to the one with the most Acc and AGI...of course that would have been prior to my Denali Jacket.

I have console macro limitations for my RDM/BRD/COR character so being able to use the same piece in multiple sets saves some button presses. I suppose in that respect Enkidu's would be about the same since I could WS in it as well since I've gotten accustomed to no RAcc in the Body slot. If you already have Paluwhan/Denali I wouldn't see a point in changing from it, but either of the 2 new harnesses would make a good piece if you don't.

And yeah, I don't stand a chance at a Novio anytime soon so being able to do Moldy + Crapaud is a nice comprimise.

I kind of want Paddock Trousers as well for shooting TP, while I don't skimp on COR having some Recycle procs might be nice on the wallet, lol. :o

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Has there been any confirmation as to which NMs these come from yet? It looks like both my characters have plenty of reasons to do the new ToA NM system, its just a matter of figuring out how it works.

Paddock might actually be a good Campaign piece considering that's where a good amount of bullets can end up going to waste, though /DNC helps stem the frequency of using them quite a bit.

[Callisto]

Enkidu's subligar is from the Troll, Paddock Trousers from the Frog, Antares Harness from Sandworm Serket.

Still waiting on confirmation for the others.

Also: Blood Ring looks like a nice reason to sell a Woodsman.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

I've gotten the Dusk Gloves successfully without giving up the Trousers, which now leaves me to ponder if I should even worry about selling them toward the feet or perhaps just hold out and see if I can do the Experimental Lamia through ZNMs for Enkidu's leggings.

[LilithAngel]

I've had a good amount of success with the Cobra Unit hat and gloves thus far, and I'll probably be replacing my Rutter Sabatons with the boots too, once I work up the rank/AN for it. I would like to replace my AJ with that Enkidu Harness, though; a Haubergeon for a lot of jobs that can't wear Hauby is really nice. The rest of the Enkidu set looks nice as well.

I mainly melee with my build, so Joyeuse is really a pleasure to work with here. The rest of the gear will probably have to take time, however, as I don't have a large (or even small) number of people to work with regularly. I do good just getting the AN gear by myself. :worry:

[Kylen]

I hope you're not meleeing in those rutter sabatons?

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Here's the TP/Haste Build I'm hoping to test out by tonight:

Head: Wahlra Turban (+5% Haste
Body: Pahluwhan (+10 Acc/R Acc)
Hands: Dusk Gloves (+3% Haste, +5 Attack)
Legs: Cobra Unit Subligar (+3 Store TP, +5 Accuracy, -4 Enmity)
Feet: War Boots (+5 Attack/R Attack, hate 'em but all I have for now)
Neck: Chivalrous Chain (+1 Store TP, +5 Accuracy, +3 STR)
Waist: Swift Belt (+4% Haste)
Ring 1: Rajas Ring (+5 Store TP, +5 STR/DEX)
Ring 2: Ecphoria ring (+1 Store TP, +4 Accuracy)
Earring 1: Suppanomimi (+5 Sword Skill)
Earring 2: Fenrir's Earring (+10 Attack Daytime/+10 Ranged Attack Nightime)

So basically, I'm just displacing Dusk Trousers for the evening. If sushi is enough to cover the loss of the Trousers, I'll probably put them up toward the Dusk feet. If not, I'll keep them around and just wait a bit longer for the feet I guess.

[LilithAngel]

I hope you're not meleeing in those rutter sabatons?

Yes, I consiously do indeed melee in Rutters, thank you very much. Yes, I do indeed own a pair of Dusk Boots.

2% either way doesn't mean jack to Joyeuse, however. :thumbsup:

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Meh, got too tired by the time I got my Cobra Unit Subligar to merit. Looks pretty nice overall, though. All in all, I think I'm just gonna keep the Dusk Trousers anyway. Even if I no longer need them for general things, they'll still be good to max out my accuracy for endgame.

So I'm just gonna hold out of Enkidu's Leggings, lotta Zeni NM LSes are starting up and other endgame shells are looking to integrate it into what they do. Thankfully, the concept most people have is "Your pop, your drops," too, which thankfully makes a lot of this gear free of the points bullshit.

I actually have had the opportunity to do a few ZNMs so far and its been pretty fun. Its wonderfully designed and hopefully SE reuses the concept for some future content.

[Kylen]

2% either way doesn't mean jack to Joyeuse, however.
It does if you're trying to stack Haste gear.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

I've been a big slacker on getting around to breaking my trail dagger, but I've been mucking around in Pashhow Marshlands (S) recently between campaign battles using /DNC to get solo points toward breaking the dagger. I just stick to the crabs near the outpost. I thought at first that I'd get wailed on and it would be a waste of time, but rolling Fighter's + Dancer's in conjunction with Drain Samba II was actually very doable and I found myself getting about 5 points per mob.

[Karinya]

OK, after several weeks of playing around with COR/DNC, here's my verdict on teh combo:
Before I get into the details: what level are you talking about here? I don't think I would try it before 30, it seems like the benefits would be too small. Even from 30-40 it seems a bit questionable (compared to your choice of Berserk or Sharpshot + Acc Bonus). After that you start getting steps and flourishes and expanding your options.
Drain Samba II adds another layer of melee damage output, which compliments Chaos Roll and Boxstep nicely.
No, it doesn't. It's been tested several times. The benefiter (I originally wrote user, but because of the way sambas work, that's not necessarily the same person) regains HP (unless they are full or did 0 final net damage or the target is undead); the target does NOT take additional damage. Ditto Blood Weapon.

Drain Samba is useful for reducing the amount of healing your frontliners need, especially with hate bouncing and/or AoE attacks. It won't let you kill anything faster, though.
There are no conflicts of interest in melee/mage gear when you use /DNC, you just use the melee gear.
What about melee gear vs. shoot gear? Since you intend to get most of your tp from melee, do you still carry separate racc/ratk gear to swap into when shooting? (I assume slug is still your best WS when you can spare the TP to WS, at the levels where you have it...)
Overall, COR/DNC feels like a combat oriented RDM. I don't say that to thumb my nose at melee RDMs, but in contrast to RDM or BRD using DNC, COR just uses it much more effectively in party play than those jobs could.
Well, that's hardly surprising. COR is a more physical-combat-oriented job than either of those.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Before I get into the details: what level are you talking about here? I don't think I would try it before 30, it seems like the benefits would be too small. Even from 30-40 it seems a bit questionable (compared to your choice of Berserk or Sharpshot + Acc Bonus). After that you start getting steps and flourishes and expanding your options.

Personally, I think 60+ or 70+ with Joyeuse are the most ideal. If you're fortunate enough to have the Mercurial Kris, you could make decent use of /DNC starting at 60 since you'd have /DNC's first Accuracy Bonus trait going for you. You'd be lacking status cures, but helping out on the healing end at any rate.


No, it doesn't. It's been tested several times. The benefiter (I originally wrote user, but because of the way sambas work, that's not necessarily the same person) regains HP (unless they are full or did 0 final net damage or the target is undead); the target does NOT take additional damage. Ditto Blood Weapon.


Real tests or Mr. Mageo kinds of "tests?" You're going to have to explain this or post the data, because the wiki does not provide a sufficent explaination to back this up.

What about melee gear vs. shoot gear? Since you intend to get most of your tp from melee, do you still carry separate racc/ratk gear to swap into when shooting? (I assume slug is still your best WS when you can spare the TP to WS, at the levels where you have it...)

Ranged Attack/Accuracy gear would still be part of the picture since for most situations Slug Shot is the better weaponskill and you need to stack lots of Ranged accuracy gear for it. The Detonator/Martial Gun combo is a bit more reliable for evasive mobs and situations where using meat is practical. At any rate, Ranged accuracy gear never falls out of the picture and any serious COR with a Joyeuse would be looking into a Haste/Accuracy build for /RNG as well as /DNC anyway.

The point is, /DNC eliminates the gear conflicts that /Mage forces on you. A lot of people that /WHM either go for a full-on accuracy build or full-on MP build, both of which are sheer folly. MP shouldn't go on the neck, ears or ring slots ever past level 40 because you have your ranged accuracy and Quick Draw Accuracy (AGI) to think about.

COR/WHMs would serve themselves a lot better by using melee gear in those slots and instead turning to RSE gear that give AGI, MP or both. For Taru COR/WHMs, MP gear might not even be needed, they just have the homefield advantage on MP, though looking at options for MP options the legs and waist wouldn't be a terrible idea. Mithra and Taru CORs also have the wide advantage on AGI, so they can focus on MP just a little more than the others.

But again, COR/DNC just wipes the need for most of that, it simplifies things greatly. Less junk to carry into your inventory.

Well, that's hardly surprising. COR is a more physical-combat-oriented job than either of those.

From a pure combat standpoint, RDM and COR are practically equals, COR just having the B marksmanship in it favor. COR actually has a slightly lower Sword skill and comprable dagger skill. COR stomps RDM on its parry rating.

RDM just happens to be more focused on casting, which hinders its ability to melee in an EXP setting. Its not that much less combat oriented, though Slug Shot kinda puts COR at a greater advantage DD-wise.

[MrMageo]

From a pure combat standpoint, RDM and COR are practically equals, COR just having the B marksmanship in it favor. COR actually has a slightly lower Sword skill and comprable dagger skill. COR stomps RDM on its parry rating.

RDM just happens to be more focused on casting, which hinders its ability to melee in an EXP setting. Its not that much less combat oriented, though Slug Shot kinda puts COR at a greater advantage DD-wise.

Ill have to agree with Kitten here (although ill need more drugs after I do I think). RDM and COR are almost virtual carbon copies of one another in terms of combat. As a RDM melee myself, I despise COR's for their instant cast party buffs. However in terms of DoT RDM still wins hands down (as it does over the majority of jobs in this game) but COR gets RDM with Spike Damage. When both are well geared they easily can slide into a low teir 1 DD slot, or at the least an Upper teir 2 DD slot. That is however if they are focusing on DD, and not being responisble for the background chores such as pulling and crowd control, or in the RDM's case keeping a party rolling with support spells.

Also I feel that COR and RDM both can make great use out of /DNC the ACC trait alone is great for both in terms of melee. Not to mention additional instant cast abilities. Id be currious to see a good COR/DNC however, the last one I partied with was kind of lack luster and if it wasn't for the support it offered he/she would be sitting in jeuno LFP.

As for Drain Samaba/ and Aspir Samba, neither of them acctually do "damage" to the mobs hp or mp pools. They are simply an additional effect, generated by weapon delay. I thought that much when I first delved into RDM/DNC but after "testing" it as BLU/DNC while spell hunting i noticed it dosent infact take energy from the mob, instead it just pulls it out of thin air. (I use bare hands so I hit for 1-2 damage on blu, and receive 5-7 hp per hit. The mobs HP bar does not move when this occurs).

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

However in terms of DoT RDM still wins hands down.

I knew there would be bullshit. You seem to be forgetting COR has the a x5 damage WS from Slug Shot. I don't have to offhand Joyeuse to fuel the TP, either, as most RDMs would do fuel Eviceration.

Want to point to nukes? Well point your favorite mob, the Colibri and I'll laugh and keep pushing out two forms of piercing damage while you're getting resisted. Want to point to Bio or Dia? I'll enhance either and accept partial credit for boosting them with Quick Draws. Did I mention Quick Draws don't get mimicked?

Non-colibri scenario - your plate is still more full than mine and this will cut into your DoT much more signifigantly.

The only melee buff you have to your credit is Haste and you hardly have the time to benefit from it, while both BRD and COR have a lot more to offer in regards to melee buffs

And again, LOLTiers.

[Kylen]

After spending more time playing backup support as both COR/WHM and COR/DNC, I still think that /WHM is a better subjob for dealing damage. /DNC has the +10 acc. trait which is nice but isn't going to make any huge differences like allowing us to switch to meat, and /DNC is obviously the superior soloing and Campaign subjob, but losing 20-35 TP for every single status removal or Cure III-equivalent we do really cuts down noticeably on how frequently we can Slug Shot, unlike tossing out 9-15 mp for a quick Paralyna or Erase.

Most of my perspective comes from doing endgame events like Salvage, though; when I merit on COR I always go /RNG or /WAR. I've recently added Einherjar to the list of events that I find /WHM to be best for, too; it's kind of like Salvage in that I can go full-DD mode on the regular waves of mobs, and then stand back out of AOE range on the boss, hit my mp/elemental staves gear macro, and help out with curing, status removal, and Quick Draw.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

I don't see how /WHM could even be considered a DD sub, given it only has Dia to push any sort of DD advantage and any number of other jobs could cast it from main or sub and then you could boost it with Light Shot and add more Defense down effects with Boxstep. The loss of any accuracy bonus makes /WHM an eyesore to me.

I'd sooner just pull out my SCH or RNG to go to Salvage than COR/WHM in it. If status cures and cures are your largest concern, why not just go as your WHM instead? The way I see it, that would seem to benefit people even more, since you have 75 WHM at your disposal last I checked. Why go to all the trouble to play a gimped WHM when you could just play your full one?

You give up a lot more damage potential for yourself and the group going /WHM over /DNC. You could tear through mobs faster if you have both Dia and Boxstep on the mob (and that's not mentioning Acid Bolts or Angon). /DNC gives fuller support at the small sacrifice of TP. If you're in a prolonged fight where big AoE isn't a concern, being able to push 13% defense down on top of boosting Attack via Chaos Roll and pushing the effects of Dia is very nice for the group.

To hell with my DD epeen after that is considered. It has made quite a large difference for me in highly time-sensitive events such as Limbus, Nyzul Isle or Assault.

Again, if healing/status cures is the concern, I'd just play a job better suited for that. I know all too well that every endgame LS has at least one or two dozen BRDs and RDMs in hiding anyway, its not like not being COR would be a huge loss.

[Kylen]

I don't see how /WHM could even be considered a DD sub, given it only has Dia to push any sort of DD advantage and any number of other jobs could cast it from main or sub and then you could boost it with Light Shot and add more Defense down effects with Boxstep. The loss of any accuracy bonus makes /WHM an eyesore to me.
You're not understanding what I'm saying. I'm not saying /WHM should be considered a DD sub, just that as a support subjob it seems to be a better DD sub than /DNC, at least in my own personal experience. /DNC isn't a DD sub, either; 10 accuracy alone does not a damage-dealing sub make.

You like to talk a lot about how the needs of /WHM (mp gear, according to you) and damage dealing compete against each other, to the detriment of both. I've pointed out the fallacy in this argument a number of times, including earlier in this thread. To put the shoe on the other foot, though, what about the more obvious competing goals of using your TP for curing, versus using your TP for damage? That's a pretty big tradeoff right there which seems to be glossed over by many of the most ardent /DNC supporters.

As for Box Step, I agree that it's a nice bonus from /DNC but I've personally had trouble landing it consistently on any mob that actually mattered (read: any NM or boss that takes more than 1min to kill). On any normal mob, you're rarely going to see anything better than the first 5% defense down, since it'll be 3/4 dead by the time you can put on a second Box Step.

You seem to be on this fanatic anti-/WHM crusade and I'm not sure why. Is it because of the cheap COR's who post on various forums trying to justify the fact that they're gimping their way to 75 as COR/WHM without ever pulling out their gun?

I'd sooner just pull out my SCH or RNG to go to Salvage than COR/WHM in it. If status cures and cures are your largest concern, why not just go as your WHM instead? The way I see it, that would seem to benefit people even more, since you have 75 WHM at your disposal last I checked. Why go to all the trouble to play a gimped WHM when you could just play your full one?
That's kind of a silly question. I'm not sure why you'd ask something like that besides to bait me, since I'm sure you know as well as I do what the differences between those 2 jobs are. Suffice to say, we have someone who comes WHM to every Salvage run we do already, and COR offers many things that a 2nd WHM main doesn't.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

You seem to be on this fanatic anti-/WHM crusade and I'm not sure why. Is it because of the cheap COR's who post on various forums trying to justify the fact that they're gimping their way to 75 as COR/WHM without ever pulling out their gun?


Callisto said it best - he'd rather go BRD or RDM main than be made to come to anything COR/WHM. I fully agree with that sentiment. /WHM offers COR nothing that it doesn't give those two jobs and they'd make better use of it.

COR would make better use of /DNC than RDM or BRD could. Hell, SAM makes awesome use of it, too.

Its not so much the job combo as it is what else we have available personally. I don't need a repeat of BRD. I have a 75 BRD. If you want me to play a BRD, I can be one. If you want me to play a COR, I damn well better not be asked to play a BRD/WHM.

That's kind of a silly question. I'm not sure why you'd ask something like that besides to bait me, since I'm sure you know as well as I do what the differences between those 2 jobs are. Suffice to say, we have someone who comes WHM to every Salvage run we do already, and COR offers many things that a 2nd WHM main doesn't.

Its a serious question, not bait. You seem to believe its our sacred duty to status cure and heal and prefer /WHM for that even though /DNC not only provides that benefit, but extends our support capability further than /WHM would. You're the one intent on DDing as /WHM it seems, while I'm the one wanting to use /DNC because it will extend the damage potential of the group that much further. In that context, /WHM almost seems selfish.

[Callisto]

The only time I honestly feel the need to /mage anymore is situations where Stoneskin is vital, and I know for sure that I won't be meleeing for TP. This is almost entirely boiled down to Proto-Ultima now, and when I do that I just go /RDM to boost my QDs.

I suppose something like Salvage can be a bit different as there's less people to shoulder the burden of status cures, but anything outside of that, as BBQ stated, I'd prefer to just go BRD if status cure support is needed that badly, so that I can have an easier time focusing on a pure support role. I can't think of any other situation where so many people would get hit with the same life-threatening status effect at the same time that I'd need CORs to help remove it because the WHMs and BRDs couldn't.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

The only time I honestly feel the need to /mage anymore is situations where Stoneskin is vital, and I know for sure that I won't be meleeing for TP. This is almost entirely boiled down to Proto-Ultima now, and when I do that I just go /RDM to boost my QDs.

That's really the sort of thing it boils down to. If the mobs is hands-off, then I have no reason for /RNG or /DNC and would come /mage. I see no visible benefit to going COR/Mage to any other situation.

Since timed events are so touchy, I'm willing to give up my slug shot potential if that 5 to 13% Defense Down from Boxstep means more damage for the others and less MP spent on the backline. To me, as a BRD, RDM and COR, my first and foremost duties to any PT is boosting melee efficiency and reducing backline downtime. Whatever job/subjob combination suits that purpose best, I will use.

For BRD, that's BRD/WHM.
For COR, that's /DNC, /RNG, /RDM or /BLU.
For RDM, that's /WHM, /BLM, /SCH, /DRK and possibly a few others.

I suppose something like Salvage can be a bit different as there's less people to shoulder the burden of status cures.

I personally don't see why even salvage would require it unless your LS was seriously lacking in the mage department. I realize there's a lot of restrictions due to Pathos, but depending on which route you're going and those routes being well-known now, I don't see how you couldn't be prepared for it.

The way I see it is you have a job like COR/Mage, you've forced four cells to go to one job, when you could just use two to unlock all my abilities as COR/DNC or /RNG and be done with it. Hardly anyone is going to need the ranged slots save for RNG, COR and BRD anyway, so that's barely an issue.

[Kylen]

Callisto said it best - he'd rather go BRD or RDM main than be made to come to anything COR/WHM. I fully agree with that sentiment. /WHM offers COR nothing that it doesn't give those two jobs and they'd make better use of it.
Disagree. The BRD analogy is only apt if the COR/WHM is standing back and not meleeing, shooting, or using Quick Draw. I condemn most COR's who play like that, too.


COR would make better use of /DNC than RDM or BRD could. Hell, SAM makes awesome use of it, too.
Agree, but that has nothing to do with the COR/WHM vs. COR/DNC argument. At all.

Its not so much the job combo as it is what else we have available personally. I don't need a repeat of BRD. I have a 75 BRD. If you want me to play a BRD, I can be one. If you want me to play a COR, I damn well better not be asked to play a BRD/WHM.
It's not a repeat of BRD, that's what I've been trying to drive into your head this whole time. BRD's don't drop 800-1500 damage Slug Shots on things. COR can do that, even as /WHM.

Seriously, the "OMG COR/WHM is just a gimp BRD!" argument that you keep repeating just shows that you're either not thinking critically about this and you prefer to spout off talking points, or that you haven't read anything that I've written in this thread.

You seem to believe its our sacred duty to status cure and heal and prefer /WHM for that even though /DNC not only provides that benefit, but extends our support capability further than /WHM would.
No I don't believe that, stop projecting that onto me. If backup healing/curing isn't needed, I'll be the first to ditch both /WHM and /DNC and use a real DD subjob instead.

You're the one intent on DDing as /WHM it seems, while I'm the one wanting to use /DNC because it will extend the damage potential of the group that much further. In that context, /WHM almost seems selfish.
LOL. /WHM is a selfish subjob? Come on now, you're not even trying anymore.

We could argue all night whether giving an exp-level mob 5-7% defense down with Box Step results in a faster kill than reaching 100% TP when the mob is at 20% life and instantly finishing it off, but we both know that shit like that is situational.

On a side note, do you even do Salvage? What the heck are you going to do as COR/DNC in a Chariot boss fight? Run in to Box Step it every few seconds and eat a Discharge each time? Give the boss 19 TP with each shot that you land for 70 damage, giving you not quite enough TP to use a single Healing Waltz?

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Disagree. The BRD analogy is only apt if the COR/WHM is standing back and not meleeing, shooting, or using Quick Draw. I condemn most COR's who play like that, too.

There are situations that call for hands-off, though. Wyrms, chariots, gods, Ultima/Omega. Pick one. Given these situations, what motive do I have to go COR/WHM over BRD/WHM unless its to feed BLMs Wizard's and Evoker's Roll?

It's not a repeat of BRD, that's what I've been trying to drive into your head this whole time. BRD's don't drop 800-1500 damage Slug Shots on things. COR can do that, even as /WHM.

I caught a fish thiiiiiiiiis biiiiiiig....

COR/WHM hardly ever does that kind of damage because it does not have the accuracy to support it. If you have BRD and COR in your corner, you're better off coming BRD if /WHM is what is needed.

Seriously, the "OMG COR/WHM is just a gimp BRD!" argument that you keep repeating just shows that you're either not thinking critically about this and you prefer to spout off talking points, or that you haven't read anything that I've written in this thread.

No, it just shows you're willing to conform to an approach that makes no sense because you either don't have the specialists available to you in your linkshell or you haven't levelled them for yourself. If the situation really needs cures and status cures so badly, I have RDM, SCH and BRD to turn to. I don't need COR for that.

I will come COR to situations that require a Corsair and BRD to situations that require a Bard. I seriously don't see why this is so hard to understand.

No I don't believe that, stop projecting that onto me. If backup healing/curing isn't needed, I'll be the first to ditch both /WHM and /DNC and use a real DD subjob instead.

/DNC is a DD sub. Are MNKs and SAMs suddenly not DDs when they use it? Its very viable to them for many situations. And again, Boxstep will push the damage curve in everyone's favor. Why are you, as a support class, just thinking about your own damage? If you can't land the steps, its time to work on the accuracy build.

On a side note, do you even do Salvage? What the heck are you going to do as COR/DNC in a Chariot boss fight? Run in to Box Step it every few seconds and eat a Discharge each time? Give the boss 19 TP with each shot that you land for 70 damage, giving you not quite enough TP to use a single Healing Waltz?

You were advocating the /WHM DD approach seconds ago, where's your DD now? No epeen left? I have done salvage and a larger concern to me is getting to the chariots faster moreso that who is in the fight at the end, because I've seen times where a few have to sit it out. To me, enabling faster kills and minimizing who needs what cell are two key elements in getting you to the chariots.

What you get unlocked before you get to the chariots is somewhat ruled by chance. I've watched LSes make a mess of cell distribution, even leaving SMNs with capped MP on the way to the top. I've subbed /WHM with no ability to use Curaga II by the time I got to the chariot, making it a complete waste. There should be a priority list for every job and combo thought out, a plan for who gets what as you go along.

And your whole strategy for /WHM in Salvage is just as potentially flawed. There's no garuntee you'll make it to the top with enough MP for a Curaga II or steady status cures. Meanwhile, the SCH subjob you decried elsewhere would let you scam enough MP for additional Cure IIIs via Penury, not to mention random deal and Wild Card could be usd to manipulate the recharges to full or sublimation would buy you back more MP in critical moments. You'd have all the requisite status cures for the situation. You won't have SS or RR, but if the whole strategy entails me being out of range, you really just need to worry about RR, which can be purchased.

Bottom line, your approach isn't perfect when the shit hits the fan, either.

And there are plenty of ways for me to get TP without TPing a mob as well. Shikikoyo, Wild Card, Icarus Wing, Opo/Sleep pots pre-fight while we're getting ready. With the right plan and setup, it can work. Not to mention with decent merits if curing is a major concern, you could use DNC Roll to maximize recovery, it all depends on what the situation calls for.

But AGAIN, if cures and status cures are the very major need, COR isn't the job to be bringing - WHM, BRD, SCH and RDM all do that far better. Pick one and go as that instead, a good LS should have enough BRDs and RDM to fill the gaps anyway.

I'd go SCH or RDM if Status Cures and healing are needed.
I'd go RNG if DD is needed.
I'd go BRD if pulls, healing, and DD support are needed.
I'd go COR if mage support was needed and it would be the only reason I'd go /WHM.

Really, its not hard to figure out. After all, you're the one that keeps saying "shit is situational." Why are you condeming me for thinking about the situation and accusing me of being narrow-minded? Seems that's more of a problem YOU have, why should I have to settle for less when I have a specialist for each of those situations?

I'm not pushing the square peg into the round hole when I don't need to.

[Kylen]

Disagree. The BRD analogy is only apt if the COR/WHM is standing back and not meleeing, shooting, or using Quick Draw. I condemn most COR's who play like that, too.
There are situations that call for hands-off, though. Wyrms, chariots, gods, Ultima/Omega. Pick one. Given these situations, what motive do I have to go COR/WHM over BRD/WHM unless its to feed BLMs Wizard's and Evoker's Roll?
Well, in those "hands-off" situations you'll get much less use out of /DNC than /WHM, so I don't see your point. Also, not every COR out there has BRD leveled, too, and there are some situations (like in a BLM party) where COR buffs are preferable to a BRD's or at least complementary to it.

I caught a fish thiiiiiiiiis biiiiiiig....

COR/WHM hardly ever does that kind of damage because it does not have the accuracy to support it. If you have BRD and COR in your corner, you're better off coming BRD if /WHM is what is needed.
What?? You really think 10 less accuracy means I can't hit Slug as /WHM when I'm using sushi? I listed such a large damage range because it is completely dependent on what I'm fighting and what buffs I have on. Yes, I have hit Slugs for as high as 1500-1700 as COR/WHM (granted, on very weak or berserked mobs in Salvage), so I included that as an upper bound.

And again, what's with this ridiculous assumption that every COR out there has BRD leveled, too?

/DNC is a DD sub. Are MNKs and SAMs suddenly not DDs when they use it? Its very viable to them for many situations.
/DNC is not a DD sub. MNK's, SAM's, and NIN's use it in Campaign, sure. That doesn't make it a DD sub, that makes it a good soloing/support sub that's effective in Campaign and similar activities.

And again, Boxstep will push the damage curve in everyone's favor. Why are you, as a support class, just thinking about your own damage? If you can't land the steps, its time to work on the accuracy build.
Um, what if my own Slug Shot damage outdoes the extra damage that other DD's deal from 5% defense down on Box Step? It's not about being selfish, it's trying to kill the mob in the shortest/most efficient amount of time possible. What mobs in particular are you thinking of that would really benefit from Box Step? Perhaps some specific examples would make it easier to frame this discussion.

And good luck trying to land Box Step on most Sky Gods and other HNM's, even in full accuracy gear.

Really, its not hard to figure out. After all, you're the one that keeps saying "shit is situational." Why are you condeming me for thinking about the situation and accusing me of being narrow-minded? Seems that's more of a problem YOU have, why should I have to settle for less when I have a specialist for each of those situations?
Dude, I haven't condemned you once for playing /DNC. It's a solid subjob choice in a variety of different situations. I'm just trying to make you realize that /WHM still has its place in certain endgame events too, if played correctly.

Here is the crux of my argument:

-/WHM doesn't help or hurt your DD ability at all, if you use your normal DD gear with it. As an added bonus, in any situation where you can't act as a DD and build TP with your Joyeuse or bullets, you can instantly triple your mp pool, equip elemental staves and other MAB gear for Quick Draw, and be a very effective backup healer at the touch of a macro button, provided you have the right gear.

-/DNC actually hinders your DD ability, since the TP spent on Steps, Sambas, and Waltzes in leiu of Slug Shot/Detonator outweighs any extra damage from the small +10 accuracy job trait. /DNC is also more limited in that it is only effective in situations where you are free to build TP.

I'm not attacking your playstyle choice, honestly. All I'm doing is defending mine.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Here is the crux of my argument:

- WHM doesn't help or hurt your DD ability at all, if you use your normal DD gear with it. As an added bonus, in any situation where you can't act as a DD and build TP with your Joyeuse or bullets, you can instantly triple your mp pool, equip elemental staves and other MAB gear for Quick Draw, and be a very effective backup healer at the touch of a macro button, provided you have the right gear.

-/DNC actually hinders your DD ability, since the TP spent on Steps, Sambas, and Waltzes in leiu of Slug Shot/Detonator outweighs any extra damage from the small +10 accuracy job trait. /DNC is also more limited in that it is only effective in situations where you are free to build TP.


I'm sorry, but which combination lowers mob evasion and raises party accuracy? Which combination lowers mob defense further while raising party attack? What combination can practically give melees a cure per attack round? Which combination would give you better accuracy?

That would be COR/DNC, not COR/WHM. While you're busy posting your Slug Shot numbers from COR/WHM on Boreal Hound or some shit, I'll concern myself with what the first duty of the job - support. Damage is luxury to this job and a beautiful one at that, but its still my secondary priority.

I still /RNG in most merit PTs because there is no reason to go as anything else. I'll /NIN or /WHM in manaburn because there is no reason to go as anything else. But if I merit with a PLD or frontline MP users, /DNC becomes top of my list. If I'm in Dynamis, Limbus, Einherjar I will do whatever gets the kills faster and since almost all DDs eclipse what COR can do in that regard, so I will go /DNC for all save for Dynamis Lord or Omega/Ultima. At HNMs, gods or events that call for mage PTs, I will /WHM with no complaints, but if COR/WHM is not optimally used in those situations (meaning: BLM PT), I was better off coming as my RNG, SCH, RDM or BRD.

I'm not criticizing your preferred style of play, go /WHM all you want. I don't care. But don't lie about what your COR/WHM can do, which is exactly what you have been doing with these boreal hound numbers you've been kicking out.

If you're tripling your COR's MP in gear (meaning 450ish, assuming you had enough MP to raise to start with), you're not playing COR anymore, you're playing a BRD/WHM through and through, you're not DDing shit. You were better off being a BRD. Its not my problem you don't have it levelled, I'm just telling it like it is.

[Kylen]

I'm sorry, but which combination lowers mob evasion and raises party accuracy? Which combination lowers mob defense further while raising party attack? What combination can practically give melees a cure per attack round? Which combination would give you better accuracy?
I've gone over Box Step already, and no, I don't think that 5-7% defense down will result in faster kills against most mobs in the game than firing off a Slug Shot before it dies will. If you'd like to give specific examples of mobs where you think Box Step will result in faster kills than firing Slug Shot, I'd be happy to discuss them.

I agree that Box Step would be useful if I could land it on prolonged HNM fights where stacking multiple forms of Defense Down helps significantly to speed up kills, but most HNM's that I know of are either too evasive or have bad AOE's that I don't want to be in range of. Are there certain HNM's that you've been able to land Box Step consistently on that you didn't have to worry about AOE's from? Let me know what those are, and if so I'll consider subbing /DNC next time I fight them.

And a cure per attack round? Please, you get 9 TP on average per attack round with Joyeuse (average between 6 on single and 12 on double swings). To get enough TP for the equivalent of a measly Cure III you need 4 full attack rounds. That's 1/3 of a Slug Shot right there.

I don't know about you, but I've had quite a few situations on COR/DNC where I used either Box Step or Healing Waltz during a fight, found myself stuck at 86% TP when the mob was at 20% life, and regretted the fact that I was unable to finish it off quickly with a Slug Shot and had to carry all of that TP over to the next fight.

That would be COR/DNC, not COR/WHM. While you're busy posting your Slug Shot numbers from COR/WHM on Boreal Hound or some shit, I'll concern myself with what the first duty of the job - support. Damage is luxury to this job and a beautiful one at that, but its still my secondary priority
While you're concerning yourself with focusing entirely on support, I'll be concerning myself with doing whatever results in the fastest, most efficient kills. Vive la difference, I guess.

But don't lie about what your COR/WHM can do, which is exactly what you have been doing with these boreal hound numbers you've been kicking out.

I'm not lying, I have honestly hit Slugs that high. Heck, I hit a 2300+ Slug Shot once on a Hunting Wasp in Bhaflau, but I didn't include that in my range since that's obviously a huge variation from the standard. There's a reason I listed a large range of different Slug Shot values; for some reason, you chose to latch onto and focus entirely on the highest number in that range.

You wrote:
If you're tripling your COR's MP in gear (meaning 450ish, assuming you had enough MP to raise to start with), you're not playing COR anymore, you're playing a BRD/WHM through and through, you're not DDing shit. You were better off being a BRD. Its not my problem you don't have it levelled, I'm just telling it like it is.

in response to this:
-/WHM doesn't help or hurt your DD ability at all, if you use your normal DD gear with it. As an added bonus, in any situation where you can't act as a DD and build TP with your Joyeuse or bullets, you can instantly triple your mp pool, equip elemental staves and other MAB gear for Quick Draw, and be a very effective backup healer at the touch of a macro button, provided you have the right gear.
As an added bonus, in any situation where you can't act as a DD and build TP with your Joyeuse or bullets
where you can't act as a DD and build TP
can't act as a DD
Thanks for restating what I had already said.

And no, I'm not better off being a BRD in that situation if we already have a BRD in the party. You should know better than anyone how well a BRD's and COR's buffs can complement each other in the same party.

[Callisto]

I think you two should both just change servers to Ramuh and help me get my Swift Belt.

For the greater good of CORdom.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

You can't even toss out a Boxstep (10 TP) at the start of a fight?

If you finish off a slug at the end of a fight, you have enough to Boxstep at the start of the next fight. Failing that, one or two rounds of a Joy would get you enough at the start and you'd still likely have 100 TP by the end of fight with the right mix of haste gear and buffs. I didn't really even need haste gear to pull that off, so why are you not getting there with it?

Anyway, you're not changing my mind and I'm clearly not changing yours. Go on /WHMing it. I can afford to be far more shrewd about what jobs I go as for what situations since I have them available to me. I'll not /WHM in Salvage unless I'm assured of (1) an MP cell and (2) a BLM PT. If I cannot get those things and the other subs are not a option, COR goes in the Mog House and comes back RNG or I'll log on to my BRD or SCH. I refuse to play a gimped backup healer with magic shots when I have superior options at my disposal.

[Kylen]

You can't even toss out a Boxstep (10 TP) at the start of a fight?

If you finish off a slug at the end of a fight, you have enough to Boxstep at the start of the next fight. Failing that, one or two rounds of a Joy would get you enough at the start and you'd still likely have 100 TP by the end of fight with the right mix of haste gear and buffs. I didn't really even need haste gear to pull that off, so why are you not getting there with it?
I don't know why I keep responding to these straw man arguments you keep throwing out. I never said I wouldn't toss out a Box Step at the start of a fight. I simply said that sometimes when I do, I don't have enough TP to Slug Shot at the end. Obviously whether or not this happens is completely dependent on many factors including mob difficulty and how many other DD's are on it. That's why I didn't say it happens every time. It happens often enough that I've noticed and been annoyed by it, though. And it's not just from Box Step; it could be from any dance moves I do during a fight like spending 20 TP on Healing Waltz to get rid of Paralyze or Blind. I refuse to believe that you almost never have cases where you would have had enough TP to Slug Shot but don't because you spent it dancing instead; that's simply not mathematically possible and it has nothing to do with what gear either of us are using.

Look, I'm not trying to bash /DNC as a subjob for COR. I just want to be realistic about the drawbacks to it instead of glossing them over. The tradeoff of having to use TP for curing, status removal, and small defense or evasion down debuffs vs. using it for weaponskills is a drawback to /DNC, and for me it's a fairly major one.

I'm more than willing to acknowledge the drawbacks and limitations to /WHM as well. The main limitation to /WHM is that you really need some form of Refresh for it to work, either from Evoker's Roll or another source like Ballads. Resting for mp as COR/mage really isn't a good option most of the time since it's likely to be interrupted by our roll or Quick Draw cycles. If I were ever put in a full melee party with no mages at all to put Evoker's Roll on, there's no way I would ever go as /WHM; in fact I would see that being an ideal time to pull out /DNC.

I'll not /WHM in Salvage unless I'm assured of (1) an MP cell and (2) a BLM PT.
You bring BLM parties to Salvage? Seriously, though, and I'm not being facetious about this, you should try coming as COR and having someone else come BRD to Salvage (or vice versa), and put both of you in the main party. Chaos plus SAM or Fighter's Rolls stacked with BRD songs on melees make a huge difference in kill speed on early floors, Evoker's stacked with Ballads is sex for mages, and Monk's Roll is a godsend on Chariot bosses and Restoral and Rail Cannon-happy gears.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

I refuse to believe that you almost never have cases where you would have had enough TP to Slug Shot but don't because you spent it dancing instead; that's simply not mathematically possible and it has nothing to do with what gear either of us are using.

You're assuming your math is valid because you assume I do this the same way you do.

Here's how I break it down.

Sufficent on Healing?
Camp not full of status mobs?

Go /RNG

Melee not practical at all?
Placed in BLM PT?

Go /WHM or other /mage sub if enough status healers are there.

PLD tank and Aspriable mobs?
Camp Full of status mobs?
Inexperienced Healer?
Dynamis/Limbus/Nyzul-type situation?

Go /DNC

Party OK on HP and Mages OK on MP?

Pass on Samba/Waltz, focus on Steps, buffs/QD and Slug Shots.

More curing needed/Mage getting to 2/3rds MP?

Tone down DD, use Sambas and Waltzes as needed. Slug if you can, but at this point that is less important.

Situation > The Math of TP gain/loss.

A COR/DNC is going to do a lot more good if you're doing trolls than a COR/WHM or /RNG would. A COR/RNG is your best bet for most EXP levels and bird camps. /WHM is more for hands-off situations where you'd QD and cure/status cure, missions and some other (but not all) high level events. A /WHM melee is really only good if the mob evasion is skewed down low enough, just my opinion.

If COR was your only job or only support job, this is how I'd break it down. I think that's very realistic and unbiased.

You want to COR/WHM in Salvage? That's fine, I have other options open to me.


Look, I'm not trying to bash /DNC as a subjob for COR. I just want to be realistic about the drawbacks to it instead of glossing them over. The tradeoff of having to use TP for curing, status removal, and small defense or evasion down debuffs vs. using it for weaponskills is a drawback to /DNC, and for me it's a fairly major one.

I'm more than willing to acknowledge the drawbacks and limitations to /WHM as well. The main limitation to /WHM is that you really need some form of Refresh for it to work, either from Evoker's Roll or another source like Ballads. Resting for mp as COR/mage really isn't a good option most of the time since it's likely to be interrupted by our roll or Quick Draw cycles. If I were ever put in a full melee party with no mages at all to put Evoker's Roll on, there's no way I would ever go as /WHM; in fact I would see that being an ideal time to pull out /DNC.


No one is glossing over anything, you're just exaggerating the TP loss. You're assuming I must always use my TP akin to Carrilei's anti-/WHM rants where he believes you must have MP gear in every slot to make /WHM work. A COR/WHM doesn't neccessarily mean I have to pack on as much MP as possible, nor does using /DNC always mean I'm using TP every fight to cure people.

Seriously, though, and I'm not being facetious about this, you should try coming as COR and having someone else come BRD to Salvage (or vice versa), and put both of you in the main party. Chaos plus SAM or Fighter's Rolls stacked with BRD songs on melees make a huge difference in kill speed on early floors, Evoker's stacked with Ballads is sex for mages, and Monk's Roll is a godsend on Chariot bosses and Restoral and Rail Cannon-happy gears.

I've done COR+BRD in Salavge, its nice, but it simply boils down to this:

I do not enjoy /WHM on COR, no matter how well it works and I do not like COR/WHM in Salvage especially because I get shafted on cells. I am forced to play second fiddle to not one, but two jobs that require absolutely no skill whatsoever to play and I'm made to be a gimped healer that may not even get close to halfway unlocked.

I do not deny /WHM works and don't claim it to have no benefits. I have it levelled as a sub but I just don't like it and will avoid using it if I can't play it in the handful of situations I do enjoy COR/WHM. I will go as something else because I can afford to be that shrewd about it.