PLD/NIN w/o joyeuse?

[Hilde]

I'm simply wondering if the use of a joyeuse is almost reuired to make this job combination work for merit/xp parties at lvl 75?

[Selphiie The Enchantress]

Unfortunately in today's merit partys you wont be doing much tanking as PLD, you will just kind of be the "first provoke" while the DD rip apart the "Colibri" in a matter of seconds. Only reason i say that is because Colibri is all people care to merit on these days anymore.

Also correct me if im wrong but i think the Joyeuse's double attack doesnt proc as much when your dual-wielding. Don't be afraid to try different job combinations.

But i say yes get the joyeuse its a nice toy for Paladin for meripos.

[Callisto]

Most of the time I see PLDs just continue to use a shield as /NIN, and most times using a beaver tail(whatever the Marschooty+1 emnity sword is). While some do equip for DD as a means of attempting to hold more hate, for the most part the /NIN is really just to keep you from taking a boat load of damage and sucking down MP, slowing down the burn party.

That said, PLD can still deal decent damage in meripo, Joyeuse is nice for Colibri due to the piercing bonus and fast TP gain, but your damage output could likely even be matched by using a decent GSword with capped skill and DD food. Still your main focus should be keeping the mob on you as long as possible using your standard hate tools, given your party'd DDs aren't functionally retarded and open the fights with Rampage and whatnot you shouldn't have much problems regardless of your weapon choice.
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Also correct me if im wrong but i think the Joyeuse's double attack doesnt proc as much when your dual-wielding. Don't be afraid to try different job combinations.

Joyeuse proc rate is the same when dual wielded, it's only when /WAR or using a Brutal Earring that things can get murky, as non-Sea multi-hit weapons(Joy, Ridill, etc.) don't mix with Double Attack.

[Armando]

That said, PLD can still deal decent damage in meripo, Joyeuse is nice for Colibri due to the piercing bonus and fast TP gain, but your damage output could likely even be matched by using a decent GSword with capped skill and DD food.Highly doubtful. Skill difference is too wide and even if it weren't, Joyeuse is stupid strong in DPS alone, it increases WS frequency to boot, and DW skews things even more.Also correct me if im wrong but i think the Joyeuse's double attack doesnt proc as much when your dual-wielding. Don't be afraid to try different job combinations.I think you're somewhat conceptually confused. Joyeuse's proc rate won't be affected in the least. It still has that 50% double hit proc rate, so its strength isn't diminished at all. However, it does have to share its attack round time with another weapon, and that decreases the extra TP gain you get from it. Basically, barring other factors like Double Attack, Joyeuse is +50% TP gain on its own, +25% dual wielded. On the other hand, you do get an extra hit in your Vorpals, and the overall DPS of the weapon pair will be higher than Joyeuse's alone.

To answer the OP: If you're seriously looking to do damage, you seriously need to get a Joyeuse and/or Justice Sword (w/ stones.) Barring Excalibur, other swords just don't compare. Obviously, Joyeuse is the more obtainable sword.

[Celeal]

I never partied with PLD/NIN that uses Joyeuse, but I have tried to merit using my PLD/NIN (no joy-toy). From my experience, the hate holding ability for PLD/NIN w/o joy-toy lost an edge (I am not talking about damage output, but hate control).

If you have doubt with my words, check out:
http://www.ffxionline.com/forums/frequently-asked-questions/69038-awesome-testing-done-enmity.html

and

Kanican - Enmity Table (http://kanican.livejournal.com/13848.html)

The 1800 VE unit from Provoke is not trivial. PLD/NIN will need an effort to bridge that gap.

[Zempten]

Another option you can try is main healing. It's not as impossible as you would think.

[Celeal]

Or just stick to PLD/WAR ^^; If it is done properly, PLD/WAR can *tank* in merit parties without slowing down the party.

[Jei]

A bit tiring on the mage's part tho. If you meet lazy whm or rdm as PLD/WAR they'll start whining :/

[IfritnoItazura]

That said, PLD can still deal decent damage in meripo, Joyeuse is nice for Colibri due to the piercing bonus and fast TP gain, but your damage output could likely even be matched by using a decent GSword with capped skill and DD food.
1. It's hard to use food when you're always provoking.
2. As a RDM, I will ask the party leader to replace me if I see PLD/WAR using Great Sword on Greater Colibri.

PLD/WAR tanks using Great Sword are MP sponges for no greater DD output, and thus a waste of party slot which slows down the party for no reason. Haven't seen Great Sword PLD/NIN or PLD/SAM on Colibri or other critters, so I'll reserve my judgment, but it doesn't look very good at all.

While damage over time and TP gain of Joyeuse alone is terrific, meripo parties can really benefit from strong weapon skills. I'm working to acquire a Justice Sword to Dual Wield with for better WS without losing TP gain rate. Those without endgame gear options may want to look into a Company Sword or other high damage rating swords for the main slot.

Edit:
PLD with sword and shield in merit party? Perfect fine with that, as long as the player balance properly between damage output and damage mitigation.

[Selphiie The Enchantress]

PLD/WAR tanks using Great Sword are MP sponges for no greater DD output

Your like... my best friend now...

I've been trying to find a line to tell my rl friend whos a Paladin why he shouldnt use GS in meripos. Although he has brought up some decent PLD/SAM arguments, but imo if you really want to use that great sword with /sam just level dark knight. But he keeps basing his information on Greater Colibri, i dont think him and 97% of FFXI meriters realize there AREEEE other mobs than Colibri >.>

[IfritnoItazura]

Actually, the PLD/WAR I was complaining about was at the Colibri Camp. ._.

To be honest, as RDM/WHM, I usually don't really care what the front line people do, as long as they are killing stuff at a decent rate without draining my MP away too fast.

However, when a perfectly working party--not chain#100, but OK paced, and manageable on my MP pool--suddenly became an MP sponge, I started to pay attention. That's when I noticed the PLD stopped using shield. He was getting hit harder, and other melees were getting hit more often.

Yet, the fights weren't any shorter. That's why I say PLD/WAR with Great Sword a waste of a party slot--even on those Greater Colibris.

After a bit of argument, he went back to sword and shield, and my MP problem went away. The whole affair was really stupid; he was actually a decent tank when he used his shield. Talk about gimping oneself intentionally...

If PLD wants to come as /SAM and play with a Great Sword, he'd better use Flash and help me cure, and do respectable amount of damage. Otherwise, a DRK/SAM or even a DRK/NIN would be much better for the party.

[Farcen]

Correct me if i'm wrong, but I believe Paladin's Great Sword caps at 250, sword at 276. That being said with full merits in both GS would achieve level 266, plus Prudence Torque would equal 273.

Sword however with full merits will achieve level 292. If you add in a Fortitude Torque and a Suppanomimi you will get 304.

So as /nin, with swords you will have 304 sword skill and will be able to use two swords versus one GS at 273 skill. 304 skill alone with normal DD gear should allow you to eat meat and still have decent accuracy. If you factor in the double attack from Brutal Earring and the Multi-proc's of Justice/Joyuse, or the damage of something like Company/Joyeuse, it blows away anything a GS can throw out.

Then again... If you have a build for GS and use homam and have an algol and such... Then I can see it coming close or surpassing it.

Then again, this is all speculation on my point so take it for what it's worth. :P

[Sevv]

A joy really does make pld/nin work, personally my pld burn set up is->

Pld/Nin

tp
Main-> Joy
Sub-> Justice Sword
Head-> W truban
Neck-> Peacock Charm
Ear1-> Brutal
Ear2-> Suppa
Body-> Hauby
Hands -> Dusk Gloves
Ring 1-> Ultham's Ring
Ring 1-> Sniper's Ring
Back -> Amemt Mantle+1
Waist -> Swift Belt
Legs -> Dusk (Until I can get Homam)
Feet -> Dusk (Until I get Homam)

Tp
I swap out the rings for flame rings, and every armor for Hecatomb.

[Selphiie The Enchantress]

Sevv can the justice be replace by company :[ for people who dont have sea?

[Callisto]

Sev wouldn't you want to mainhand the Justice Sword for DA procs on WS as well?
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Also:
Tp
I swap out the rings for flame rings, and every armor for Hecatomb.

You heard it here, Sev TPs in full Heca. :rofl:

[Sevv]

meant ws xD

[Callisto]

Hah, I figured but it was still funny. About your Joy/Justice setup though, is there a specific reason you wear them like that? If I'm not mistaken offhanded Justice only gets once chance to DA during WS, while mainhanded would get 2-4 depending on your WS, while Joy would never DA during the 2-4 swings...but we wiped on our only Justice attempt so far and I can't get one to play with... :(

[Farcen]

Yeah Justice is usaully used main hand for the increased damage over Joyeuse.

High Damage - High Delay = Main Hand
Low Damage - Low Delay = Offhand

And yes company can be used until you get a Justice, always use it in your main hand.

[Callisto]

Yeah Justice is usaully used main hand for the increased damage over Joyeuse.

High Damage - High Delay = Main Hand
Low Damage - Low Delay = Offhand

And yes company can be used until you get a Justice, always use it in your main hand.

Justice actually has lower damage than the Joy, which is why I could understand someone plugging it in the mainhand, but I think the DA on it procs enough during WS' to warrant taking 1 less D on the main slot, however I can't confirm this myself as I don't own one.

[Sevv]

We had like a 4 hour convo on if they proc. or not on weapon skill my ls decided on a solid no so i said screw it and mainhanded joy.

After checking on BG Justice does not double attack more on each hit, therefor Joy/Justice weilds the great combo. '.'/

[Callisto]

We had like a 4 hour convo on if they proc. or not on weapon skill my ls decided on a solid no so i said screw it and mainhanded joy.

After checking on BG Justice does not double attack more on each hit, therefor Joy/Justice weilds the great combo. '.'/

And here I've been under the impression the entire time that the whole big deal w/ Jailer weapons was that they do proc on WS'...blah, I want to test it now but we just had a big exodus of Sea members in my LS and we won't be doing Justice for a few weeks most likely. :cry:

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Yeah, I was wondering about the Justice Sword thing, you could offhand Joy and mainhand Justice to get the full effects on both, especially so since Brutal Earring only effects main hand.

EDIT: Looks like I commented on that one really late.