Skillchains?

[Prons]

Sorry if this is the wrong forum, but I'm curious about skillchains and their releveancy to the game.

I've been playing for almost 2 months and in my entire time I've only seen one skillchain, and I often hear posts saying things like "I haven't seen a skillchain in months."

I'm curious why?It seems like it'd be a fun and tactical part of battle, but I don't see them used, are they only used at higher levels, or is there a reason why people aren't doing them? Maybe it's because I usualy play backline jobs?

[LilithAngel]

The main problem regarding this is Treasures of Aht Urghan.

Y'see, before that expansion was released, Skillchain/Magic Burst parties were common at all levels of play, while the "TP Burn" play style and mentality were limited to King Ranperre's Tomb, behind the Moongates in Ro'Maeve, or in the deepest reaches of Tu'Lia. Everyone built parties around finding the proper jobs that wielded the correct weapons that made the right Skillchains that the Black Mages in the parties (yes, BLMs got parties back then) could properly Magic Burst off of, for maximum damage on pre-determined camps.

Then ToAU came along, and more specifically, Colibri and Imps.

Now, you only see Skillchains either by A] a Samurai self chains, B] a Blue Mage does the dame, or C] Random. The "TP Burn" style has reached almost every level of play, and as a consequence, player skill in a Skillchain/MB setup is all but lost.

If you want to see a Skillchain in action, I'd suggest making your own parties with the express purpose of doing so, going after mobs that aren't so squishy, but I'd be remiss if I didn't tell you "Good Luck" when trying that.

:(

[Sabaron]

The efficiency of skillchains is overrated in many XP-related cases. Why?

Because a Weaponskill's power is dependent on TP and for many weaponskills the TP points from 0 to 100% are more valuable than the TP points from 100%-300%. Therefore, any TP you "waste" by putting it into the 100-200 zone causes a requisite decrease in your overall damage.

For instance, most multihit weaponskills are modifier 1.00 under all conditions. Therefore, if you charge to 125% or even 300%, you get the exact same damage as going to just 100%. A similar problem happens with single hit WS like Tachi: Gekko that has modifiers of 1.5625, 1.875, and 2.5. Each TP point from 0-100% is worth .015625, but the points from 100-200 are only worth 0.003125 and the points from 200-300 are worth 0.00625. Therefore, the SAM who WS's at 100% each time does approximately 87.5% more damage than a person who charges to 300% (I do 3 WS's @ 1.5625 = 4.6875 and he does 1 WS @ 2.5, 4.6875/2.5 = 1.875). Therefore, it is a waste of TP to let even a single hit of my precious TP go into the 100-200% buffer.

Basically, it all comes down to parsed statistical performance. In quite a few cases, skill chains can be quite beneficial (especially when you want to land some very nice unresisted nukes). Most of the time people focus on XP since we spend so much time doing it. In XP it is inefficient. In non-XP situations, it can be very beneficial. You'll see skillchains, just don't expect them in XP parties unless you have a BLM.

[IfritnoItazura]

Skillchain in exp parties is pretty "efficient" under some unusual conditions, such as a weak front line, monsters which spam very dangerous TP moves while low HP, and those annoying Dhalmels with crazy Healing Breezes.

Even then, it's worthwhile only if you have one or more strong nukers who can Magic Burst for big damages.

That said, I've always found SC+MB to be more fun than WS spam parties. =/

* * *

My last SC+MB party was on SCH, in Bibiki Bay, fighting rabbits. That party moved to Garlaige Citadel later, and still SC+MB'ed. That was less than three weeks ago. A few days before that, I had another SC+MB party in Yuhtunga Jungle. (Again, on SCH.) Less than two weeks before that (I think), had a merit party on Trolls--you gussed it, SC+MB.

So, SC+MB isn't quite dead for exp--just rare.

[Wise Donkey]

I miss doing a SATA VB to close Distortion for crazy damage. /sigh

[Coinspinner]

I always figured the wasted TP would be more than made up for by the SC damage and additional damage to the MBed spell. Worse than wasted damage from extra TP is having to use a weak WS in order to produce a SC that the enemy won't outright resist. It's just not worth doing.

[Caspian]

I always figured the wasted TP would be more than made up for by the SC damage and additional damage to the MBed spell. Worse than wasted damage from extra TP is having to use a weak WS in order to produce a SC that the enemy won't outright resist. It's just not worth doing.
I imagine it depends on how much you're "wasting". 125% or so, yeah, you're probably right. 300% every time and there's no way a SC+MB bonus damage is going to make up for lost damage on most ws's due to too much tp.
In my static (which hasn't xp'd in months) my SAM sc's with the THF. I can get off 2+ with meditate in the time it takes the thf to get 1. So I'll usually SC one and solo the other.

[Celeal]

Another point with Skillchain is, you have to build a party for that: You have to consider the DD's weapons type, speed of TP gain, mob's weakness/resistance, what WS to use, who is doing the MB, etc. In other words, you won't expect good result if the party just randomly throw in 2 DD to do SC.

For example, at level 40 if you want a THF to close Distortion with SATA Viper Bite, you would want to invite a RNG, DRG, SAM or a Great Sword using DRK to open Distortion.

Back in the days some DD job is not "wanted" in parties because they can be part of certain Skillchain and players' ignorance, even though that DD job is great itself.

Today's generation of DD, a lot of the old school stuff is lost, like back-up tanking, link handling, line up of SATA, Skillchain, several capped weapon skill for SC, alternative tanking gear, pulling without killing the party, etc.

For a DD, the first step of SC is report TP consistently:

/p TP @ <tp>

Sigh... it used to be very fun when exp. as DD, instead seeing those who draw the weapon out and then watch TV~

[Coinspinner]

I imagine it depends on how much you're "wasting". 125% or so, yeah, you're probably right. 300% every time and there's no way a SC+MB bonus damage is going to make up for lost damage on most ws's due to too much tp.
In my static (which hasn't xp'd in months) my SAM sc's with the THF. I can get off 2+ with meditate in the time it takes the thf to get 1. So I'll usually SC one and solo the other.

Certainly. And if the tank also reports TP then there's occasionally an opportunity for another SC there too.

[Sabaron]

Skillchains happen in Burn parties too, they're just usually not planned in advance. You see so-and-so WS, and just wait a tick before WS'ing yourself, and you have yourself an impromptu Skillchain with a requisite damage boost. Pre-planned SC's have a tendency to waste more TP. Try WSing with one of us pathetic RDMs in a Skill-up/Latent PT.

[IfritnoItazura]

Anyway, to OP:
1. Skillchain is still an important part of FFXI; you need to learn about it.
2. Skillchain isn't as important in exp'ing, leveling up portion of the game as before, though you may still see it from time to time.
3. Skillchain and Magic burst style of play is fun!

The reason it's fun is because it requires teamwork; makes a player feel a part of a bigger whole, instead of just "Doing my thing and trying not to fall sleep."

[Neomage]

Lots o' stuff

While most of what you said is true, it really only applies to "squishy" type parties, such as Imps. The problem is, people are taking this TP-burn mentality and using it on monsters that are not "squishy", and the efficiency of this is much lower then SC + MB in these setups.



For instance: With Imps and Colobri, you are trying to kill a monster with a low amount of HP in a short amount of time. If you tried to set up a Skillchain on these monsters, you would usually end up with drastic overkill, and wasted TP from waiting for other members to get enough TP to SC.


On the other hand, when you are fighing normal monsters, lvs 10-54 and sometimes higher, even in EXP situations SC + MB is drastically
more efficient. The reason for this, is even though you lose potential damage from letting your TP go into the 101-150% range, that damage is nearly, if not completely made up for with the damage from a skillchain effect alone, let alone the extra damage from a magi burst. With Light and Darkness skillchains, the SC damage can be mirrored 100%, letting you get off "3" WS for ~250% TP. Add in the Magic Burst M. Acc. and M. Atk. from even one mage, and it is already superior even in an EXP setting.

[IfritnoItazura]

While most of what you said is true, it really only applies to "squishy" type parties, such as Imps.
Is Imp squishy or just low HP? Crawlers are squishy, but better for SC+MB style than Imps.

For instance: With Imps and Colobri, you are trying to kill a monster with a low amount of HP in a short amount of time. If you tried to set up a Skillchain on these monsters, you would usually end up with drastic overkill, and wasted TP from waiting for other members to get enough TP to SC.
You can't SC on Imps. Amnesia means you have to WS as soon as you can, or else risk another Amnesia holding you from WS for a long time.

Colibri isn't so much low HP as merely target for nukes, with built-in magic damage cut. Even MB Freeze was lackluster. (No, not joking; my BLM had a static at that level--I literally MB Freeze'd one out of three Lesser Colibris and sulked after each Freeze.) Free nuking was just horrible.

Normal and Greater Colibri can only be worse, with fast (uniformed) casting Parrot sending you or the tank back every nuke. Two second cast time Freeze! Any BLM would get kicked fast from the party after one of those on the PLD--assuming any BLM was let in the party to begin with.

On the other hand, when you are fighing normal monsters, lvs 10-54 and sometimes higher, even in EXP situations SC + MB is drastically more efficient.
This is overstating the case for SC+MB, whose effectiveness really depends on the level differences between the party and the monster, and whether the party has the right setup for it.

If chaining VTs to low ITs, WS spam will usually win out on most targets. You need higher ITs to make the SC+MB worthwhile.

The reason for this, is even though you lose potential damage from letting your TP go into the 101-150% range, that damage is nearly, if not completely made up for with the damage from a skillchain effect alone
SC effects are usually resisted badly. A BRD and/or NIN lowering elemental resistance on the target will help a lot, but good luck getting those kind of BRDs and NINs. (I remember thinking that using a THF to close SC tends to lower the resist rate, but that may be just wishful thinking on my part.)

MB accuracy and potency for the nukes are nice, but too often it's more efficient to just replace the BLM with another melee.

I like BLMs, I love SC+MB, but "exp/hour" rules the players' behavior and expectation.

* * *

Before the BLMs get upset and post angry words at me, let me reassure all of you I never turned down an invite from BLMs--in fact, I'm always happy to have (competent) BLMs when playing RDM or any other job.

Not all RDMs are slaves to fast merits. :P

[Eiyoko]

When it comes to some mobs that can eat your TP or give you amnesia, I can see why TP burn is more appealing; if you wait for the skillchain and something goes wrong (say, the tank loses hate, the imp uses that stupid tantra - I forgot what it was called, I haven't partied on them in ages) then your TP goes to waste. In the case of imps it's not much so, but that tantra can get really annoying.

Colibri are evil in more ways than one, so skillchaining on them can be a bad idea as well.

Aside from that reasoning, however, people are just too damn lazy to even think of skillchains anymore. In fact, I've taken some friends of mine to places like Cape Terrigan, Valley of Sorrows, and the Boyahda Tree - all common leveling spots before the empire took over. Their response when I bring them there?

"This place is cool! I've never been here before!"
Me: *silently whimpering to herself*

That, and the EXP bonus on Sanction (and the refresh/regen/food enhancements with it) makes people's eyes see teh shineyz.

Seriously. 10 more exp per mob isn't going to make you level from 1 to 75 in half the time. Geez.

I miss Skillchains. In fact, I miss the whole partying system before Treasures of Aht Urhgan. It was fun, and I actually was entertained enough to pay attention. Nowadays I mention leveling in places like the Boyahda Tree and I almost expect someone to ask me stuff like "Where's that?" or "Is that in Aht Urhgan? I don't see it on the region map."

It gets even worse when people ask me what a skillchain is...whether they're sarcastic or not.

I even met a BLM in the 50's knowing nothing of AF or Ancient Magic. If he simply didn't know about it in the first place, then my theory is correct and Aht Urhgan dropped some of our players several hundred IQ levels. Next thing you know they'll ask me to spam stoneskin on them when we're TPburning on fire-breathing crawlers, and expect me to cure/haste/buff them at the same time.

(Okay, okay, enough of that...end rant.)

I miss the shiney-looking skillchains.

</3

[Malacite]

There are several problems with Skill Chains IMO that SE needs to address;

1) They're weak to begin with. Until you start doing Light or Darkness (and even then, they're fairly weak unless you can get at least 3 WS in the chain) the damage isn't a whole lot. Though in 30's, it's pretty hard to beat Double Thrust to Viper Bite.


2) Resist Rates. Oh lordy, mobs just resist these way too often, especially in ToAU. On the odd times I've managed to SC light on imps (which was quite often actually on SAM) they tended to do like.... 80 dmg at best. SE has already said they'd adjust this, but didn't say when. Hopefully in the Feb update.

3) Magic Bursting. It's been debated to death on here just what kinds of additional benefits should be bestowed upon magic bursts, but it's clear that we need something more. As is, you only gain a marginal boost to magic accuracy and attack on a burst.

SE should take this a step further with an automatic conserve MP effect (minimum 50%) as well as making spells un-resistable. Nothing sucks harder for a BLM (even with Ice staff and on crabs as a taru ... @_ @) to magic burst Freeze only to see it resisted, especially when said mob is weak to the element to begin with!



So in short, SC's are a tactical advantage that are worth doing if the people involved can gain TP at the same rate. Most of us had to memorize the charts back in the good old days, it's a damn shame they're so rare now.

[Celeal]

Another thing I want to add for Skillchain and exp. chain in traditional party:

If your party is pulling like IT -> IT -> IT -> IT -> IT... the exp. chain will break easily, and increasing the risk of downtime, long + dragging battles, etc.

An ideal approach is:
T or VT (build TP, save/recover MP) -> IT or IT+ (Skillchain + MB + bam!) -> T or VT (build TP, save/recover MP) -> IT or IT+ (Skillchain + MB + bam!) -> ....

Picking-a-camp, and pulling is part of it.

[IfritnoItazura]

You can easily go VT or even IT at higher levels for the first pull; chain #1 window (http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Experience_Chain) is:

Lv.61+: 360 seconds
Lv.51+: 300 seconds
Lv.41+: 250 seconds

With Refresh spell and hMP gear, most mages can probably get back to 95%+ MP before puller bring back a critter for chain#1, if timed correctly.

[Celeal]

Technical, you can pull IT at the start of the chain (chain #0). However, from my experience, that is where the issue with wasted-TP or Skillchain over-kill may come in. You may not see the effect at chain #0, but it may impact the subsequence chains.

[Armando]

1) They're weak to begin with. Until you start doing Light or Darkness (and even then, they're fairly weak unless you can get at least 3 WS in the chain) the damage isn't a whole lot. Though in 30's, it's pretty hard to beat Double Thrust to Viper Bite.I have to disagree with SCs being weak. Level 1 SCs already do 50% of the closing WS's damage. Being granted an extra 50% damage is quite good. And Light/Dark can't be considered weak at all, since even if you only do one SC, it'll do the same damage as the closing WS. That's a lot, since at those levels a DD can easily close for 400-500 damage, and at 75 it's possible to do 1k. Not to mention day/weather bonuses can actually kick in on them.

Of course, the resist rates TOTALLY kill that.

[Malacite]

Most WS at the lower levels won't hit very hard though other than SATA Viper Bite, SA Sturmwind. A DRK using Souleater can probably break 400 damage too, but most WS will struggle to go over 200.

[LilithAngel]

Of course, the resist rates TOTALLY kill that.

Which just makes your entire paragraph previous completely void. It's not just TAU mobs, but I've seen dozens of level 2 and 3 SCs resisted severely, and not just fluke resists, but consistant resists.

On SCs of the element the mob's weak to.

With properly geared DDs.

Even with amazing support from BRDs.

Skillchains are indeed good, but monster resist rates are even better, making them not worth it a lot. Seeing Light or Darkness close for like 50 damage after a 1k+ WS, *consistantly*, kinda lends strong support that SE needs to fix Skillchains so that they're worth something again. Hell, even when I'm soloing Light on Campaign mobs, I'll still see a good resist rate on Light, and I *know* I'm gearing properly for it, so it's not from my end this is getting screwed.

[Armando]

Which just makes your entire paragraph previous completely void.Not completely void. Pointing out "skillchains are weak" as a problem implies a need to strengthen them. They're already strong enough, it's the second issue (resist rates) that needs dealing with.Most WS at the lower levels won't hit very hard though other than SATA Viper Bite, SA Sturmwind. A DRK using Souleater can probably break 400 damage too, but most WS will struggle to go over 200.Tachi: Enpi, Double Thrust, Combo all put out good numbers when your target isn't 10 levels higher than you.

EDIT: Look at it this way LilithAngel. Suppose BLM magic accuracy was stupidly low for some reason. It's like saying Thundaga III is weak. No, it's not, it gets resisted a lot. It's inaccurate to say it is.

[LilithAngel]

Ok, fair enough. I can see that. However, the fact remains that SE needs to fix SCs (as one way or another, they're broken) to make them useful to the point people want to start doing them again. When the resist rates are bad on a target that's no more than EP-EM ffs, then you know something's wrong.

[IfritnoItazura]

I've seen "amazing BRD support" for SC only in static parties. Otherwise, the Threnody is brought out probably some special fights--when the BRD isn't too busy being rotated between melee parties for Soul Voice attack songs.

That, and BRDs singing random songs for skill up during exp because they are bored.

[Raydeus]

Skill... chain? Skillchain, skeeellchain...

Nope, no idea what the heck that is. :huh:

[Eiyoko]

Skill... chain? Skillchain, skeeellchain...

Nope, no idea what the heck that is. :huh:

You just made me cry on the inside.

[Neomage]

Maybe SE could make it so that on standard monsters(i.e., non-NMs) Skillchains and the following Magic Bursts are 100% unresistable. After all, skillchains are a tactical advantage over the monster, and the tactical part seems to imply you would catch the enemy off guard or completely overwhelm it.

This would solve the resist issue, and give an incentive to jobs such as even Dark Knight to MB if possible.

[Malacite]

I believe I said that already in my earlier post :P

Glad to see I'm not the only one thinking that though. Other people have suggested being able to MB elemental weaponskills, which would be pretty cool.

[Coinspinner]

Oh damn, Freeze MB on crabs was a nightmare. Apart from the usual resist rates when you are the lowest level in a party fighting IT+, which always happened to me, they have that Shell WS that they love to use after the first WS in the chain, halving the SC and MB damage.

I recall an old video (by Rykoshet, I think) where they pulled off a 5 or 6 man SC on Lumberjack. The damage of the final Light chain was kind of amazing. It makes me wonder if SC power was balanced against such improbably long chains. I wonder if it wouldn't have been wiser to balance it around the common two-step SC and simply allow the chain to be extended rather than giving it increasing bonus damage per step. And perhaps take into account the damage of the opening WS too, so we didn't have to be so picky about closers.


Another thing this thread has brought to mind is the first time I saw a SC in action. I know of them from reading this and other forums (anybody remember the term "Incurve?") But somehow I'd missed that they were elemental, or resistible, or that they had this big splashy magical effect. I thought the second weaponskill was just powered up somehow. I wonder if that assumption I had made wouldn't be a better way to have done things.

I believe I said that already in my earlier post :P

Glad to see I'm not the only one thinking that though. Other people have suggested being able to MB elemental weaponskills, which would be pretty cool.

That might be a bit helpful at low levels for jobs with no really good Physical WS yet. And tanks, who both have a surplus of elemental WS and are often too busy to coordinate for a SC, they could just react to one they see. Or if mages could get TP for casting spells, since they are more likely to have the MAB and INT to make it work. Gust Slash has range like Mistral Axe! Give low level BLM and SCH a Kris with +Int or +Skill, it'd be fun... till elemental staves come into play anyway.

(I'm still upset BLM can't use Mercurial Kris. Yeah yeah, BLM that melees, ur teh suq, level a real melee job, whatever. :P)

[Karinya]

Oh damn, Freeze MB on crabs was a nightmare. Apart from the usual resist rates when you are the lowest level in a party fighting IT+, which always happened to me, they have that Shell WS that they love to use after the first WS in the chain, halving the SC and MB damage.
True, but most mobs don't have that. Aside from Shell or something crazy like Stone on a cockatrice, MB resist rates are pretty damn low IMX. As a RDM I could land MB fire3 or thunder3 reliably on Uleguerand demons, which are as high if not higher than anything commonly exp'd on today; and RDM have what, C elemental magic?

Four WS at 125% that each get a 50% bonus to their damage from SC effect are going to beat the crap out of five at 100%, regardless of what the WS is.

Although it does seem that Imps, specifically, resist everything a lot (except Dark, which they REALLY resist a lot). So maybe they're not a good example - but as mentioned upthread, it's hard to SC on them anyway because of amnesia. Fight something else. :D When was the last time you had trouble with the resist rate of light on bones? Could it be... never?

Try fighting something that suits the DDs you have, rather than the trendiest overcrowded hellhole on your server... well, that's what I *would* say, except that exp/hr is so massively imbalanced between different camps since TAU, it's kind of a waste of time to not ride the gravy train.
And perhaps take into account the damage of the opening WS too, so we didn't have to be so picky about closers.
That would be a neat idea. If you make the base SC damage dependent on the opening + closing WS damage, that'd nearly double the base power of SCs right there (not quite double because of the current tendency toward SATA closers etc., but pretty good). For longer chains you could just keep adding WS damage to a running total, which would remove the need to also improve the multiplier per step in the chain.

Another effect of skillchains that I don't think I've seen mentioned so far in this thread: supposedly the SC effect's hate follows the closing WS, if it is TA'd. But in the Empire of Utsuspam, hate manipulation is even more of a lost art than skillchains themselves...