The Decline of the RDM

[Glued]

Hello my brothers and sisters of red.

Many of you know me as a outspoken whackjob on these forums but i come to you tonight filled with the utmost sincerity. The Decline of the Red Mage. I have been a Red Mage since day 1 of NA release and have take it to 75 on one instance and am currently lvl 69(damn you maat) on my new account. From what i have noticed is the decline of our traditional roles and tasks in a party. Gone are the days of magic bursting and High level meleeing for skill chains. This can be accredited to the decline in skill from our melee friends and the rampant use of TP Burn parties. Truth be told i feel more like a qusai whm/rdm if i could get vert and refresh on a whm. The job has become stale and tremendously boring to play and disgusting on the treatment we receive and the flames we receive for voicing our opinions. I remember the days when melee could skill chain and i could drop a decent nuke for MB. I remeber the days when we needed several subs leveled to fill various party roles from cure bot, pseudo blm, Skill chain partner, and even at times Tanking. Now it seems that we level these jobs, or maybe just me for selfish soloing reasons and braging rights. Honestly when was the last time you were invited to a party non- /whm, is it just me who notices this or what. I mean i remeber the last time i leveled my old 75 RDM i was the Tank in my merit static, to open the door for more heavy DD. Id slap on /PLD and go to work skillchaing, keeping hate, even MBing my own skill chains. I suppose the possible explanation is the lack of Partying in the old CoP areas where mobs were tough. As opposed to the new era of ToAU where mobs are weak and speed is key. Is it me or has the skill rate of some of our bretheren been lost to these parties.

More and more i see threads popping up of what ifs and how coulds, refering to rdm melee. This is irritating sure i have posted my support to them and why not, heck ive even started them myself in some instances. How should SE fix the problem many people ask, well truth be told there is no problem, we invented it. SE promises us a melee update but why, people arent all the sudden going to let RDM melee again. Why not because us "senior" players who have been around since day 1 are at 75 RDM we can do what we want when we want. But somewhere down the line we let our "junior" classmates get pushed to the side. Now they dont know the true aspect of being a RDM because they have never had a chance to learn it. Sometime between ToAU release and now our job lost its backbone. We have become a class of i guess so's and sure's. We ride comfortably on the fact we get invites for doing nothing but refresh/haste and let melees get us XP. Sure some may enjoy that but how many of you cant stand to party anymore because of it.

How many of you miss the days of asking a party what do you want me to sub, then chiming out your list as if it had some time of status attached to it, which it did. In the old days /whm, /brd, /smn, /pld, /nin, /drk, /blm were all used by me in and out of parties. now adays people just chime in with the i read about, heard about combos. Then flame us for providing answers of how, why, when. Telling us we are idiots. They dont know why the subs are used or when they can apply, all they know is /whm and cure bit it to 75. As a resault we have killed the WHM population, why bring a knife to a gunfight. Our shortsightedness and non educated Job class has shot itself in the foot. I ask again how many of you have given up on this job, tired of being a glorified half-assed whm.

Myself thankfully have campaign to go to. I have only been in several parties from lvl 60 in most cases with friends so i could do something other than cure bot. But we as a community keep looking to SE writing ridiculous threads about what we want and what we need, when we dont need a thing. we are a jack of all trades and our subjobs define us. SE has made us fully capable of filling any roll in a party. Even suport rolls native to us, the Stunner, fast cast/haste /drk and spam stun, very effective. The pseudo BLM, lacking T4 and AM but we have cinvert to make up for it by casting more spells. The refresher, subbing bard allows us to apply 4 ticks of MP refresh, for MP burden parties. The pink mage A great "Back Up" healing support job to save whm MP". The blink mage, spinning wheel rocking Magic attack bonus from it, skill chaining and MB. and lastly the tank mage holding hate through botomless MP, /PLD for most hate control in game, spamming sleeps and dispels. These are some of the duties rdm used to preform in parties, these were what made us RDM, the ability to change rolls as we needed to. Not having to sacrafice any of ou skills to gain a boost to the ones we need. That is what our job is about, somewhere this game turned into a XP feast and our job has suffered. Mayhaps not suffered how your looking at it, i get alot of invites. To that i say so what i get them to i used to get them for other reasons then watching HP bars.

Unfourtunatly i do not know why people tear each other apart, perhaps their are to few of us old players left, and the crown has been passed on. I am only writing this because i felt like a rant was necassary, im personally tired of the attacks we do on each other, im tired of people saying "Well thats stupid Stfu /mage and get on the backline" These new players are faulting or jobs principles by shooting down thoughts and ideas. However, on that note thoughts and ideas only go so far. We need do's we need to get these new players to learn and old players to remeber that every job in this game at one point or another works for us, and changes our role. We need to get the other jobs to realize we are not a 1 trick pony, we need them to remeber that once up on a time RDM was the most sought after job because of sheer versatility, not refresh and haste, those were just bonuses that came with the teritory.

Now as for the flamers out there ready to pounce on this i care less this is fact, this is our job, flame on and enjoy the way you play. As for the other people out there i hope this hits home, the death of the rdm is somber and we need to fix it.

Also SE did announce a adjustment to RDM combat ability, unknow to what this is or can be, speculation is rampant. Unfourtunatly they will probably go through with this and our job will become tarnished, unless we get staff skill(which i never understiid why we didnt) anyhow, thanks for reading this kind of long i know, but im not sorry.

[IfritnoItazura]

So, you're unhappy that the way RDM is used/played in-game has changed since the days of NA launch? Is that the whole point of the OP?

* * *

and lastly the tank mage holding hate through botomless MP, /PLD for most hate control in game, spamming sleeps and dispels. These are some of the duties rdm used to preform in parties,

Tanking on RDM/PLD in exp parties... Was that done? If it was, you seriously want to "return" to that?! :rolleyes:

What did you do, demand no one hit the monster for 20 seconds while you build enmity? Longer if Stoneskin is down? Keep in mind that back then, PLD had no Shield Mastery, no Auto Reresh, and no enmity multiplier from Sentinel.

Bind is 640 VE, and Blind is 640 VE. Sure, Blind x2 + Bind x1 is greater than one Provoke (1800 VE), but costs MP and time to cast. In the mean while, a normal tank with Provoke hit nearly that amount on the first second of the fight, for 0 MP and very little cost in time.

I can see Flash being a winner with 180 CE and 1280 VE for 25 MP, but that's RDM74+ only for /PLD, and well, PLD has it from Lv.37-Lv.75.

If a RDM must tank in an exp party, I'd recommend /WAR instead. Cheaper on MP--more efficient. And, while I may be wrong about this, I'll go on a limb and say that's how it used to be done for RDM tanking in party--if done at all.

Endgame tanking? Now, that's a very different beast--RDM/NIN to be precise, to my knowledge.[/quote]

[Glued]

i guess i am upset with the way our roll has changed we are now a one trick pony, no one takes outakes us for our versatility anymore only refresh/haste or cure bot. sure ya the game has evloved to this point. But at what cost think any rdm out their from TouA on can tank, knows how to be a stunmage, hell most dont even know what to MB with. I'm saying because of this RDM has become a shell and when people get together to try and explain how and why they get flammed because no one understands it anymore rdm/nin isnt a great tank at end game because losing shadows causes hate reduction. Flash is intgeral and now all those other bonuses from /pld are just gravey. Ive done probably every combo that could assist a party, keeping in mind these were done pre TP burns and nin/nin craze we live in today.

[Sevv]

Actually Rdm/Nin is a beast as an endgame tank. You have Dispel, Sleep, Sleep II, Bind, Blind for hate not to mention the amount on Enmity you can pack onto yourself. My old linkshell use to co-tank rdm/nin along side my Nin/Drk or Pld/Nin. Rdm/Nin hate is insane the trick is just putting it all together and not running off solo tanking. Anytime a mob attacks you, your going to lose hate so its not the shadow loss.

Alot of Endgame Linkshells use Red Mages for more then just a cure/fresh bot, but Exp wise that is going to be the role red mage is stuck in unless you make your own parties sadly. =/

[IfritnoItazura]

i guess i am upset with the way our roll has changed we are now a one trick pony, no one takes outakes us for our versatility anymore only refresh/haste or cure bot. sure ya the game has evloved to this point. But at what cost think any rdm out their from TouA on can tank, knows how to be a stunmage, hell most dont even know what to MB with.

The word is "role", not "roll".

Anyway, you're exaggerating, whether you know it or not.

I'm a relatively new RDM75, but within the last year, I've shown up to exp and/or merit parties as: RDM/WHM, RDM/BLM, RDM/PLD, RDM/DRK, RDM/BRD.

I had SC+MB parties, too. Frequently? No. But, they still exist. (All of those are pick-up groups, by the way, not LS/friend parties.)

* * *

My role in CoP 7.5 fight was Chainspell+Stun. RDM/BLM in Dynamis, as crowd control. RDM/NIN for LS skill up parties--help cure, handle adds, etc. Solo pesky elementals, too--while helping with cure and handle adds.

Currently working on /SCH (someone invite my SCH! :cry: ), so I can be a stronger nuker in kited fights.

Check out what some of the other frequent posting RDMs on the board are doing; you just may be surprised. (Oh, don't forget: RDM/NIN's are now used as endgame tanks.)

Versatility for RDM is well and alive, for those RDMs who seek it.

[Sevv]

Rdm/Sch has some serious potential, can't wait to see it fully tested out and put to the test.

[Icemage]

I don't know what mythical time period you played RDM in where people actually needed RDM to melee. I've been playing since NA beta (June 2003) and have never seen instances until very recently where anyone seriously contemplated using RDM in melee in XP parties, let alone as a tank at endame aside from small-party situations against specific NMs.

P.S. RDM/PLD has always sucked lemons. You could open a lemonade stand with all the lemons that RDM/PLD sucks.


Icemage

[Glued]

Oh i forgot another role RDM played in the day, RDM/THF was used widely for pulling and SATA when thf's were not available. I just find it embarassing that the majority of people dont know the history of our jobs capabilities or roles. It really bugs me when i try to explain to people the importance of our wide array of sub jobs only to be shot down by the (usually) non-rdm or melee that have never levelled the job, and tell people how to play it the way they want them to. SE needs to over haul the entire aspect of party systems to return Jobs to they way they should be. BLM lives in obscurity, WHM is endangered species #1, PUP's dont get invited to parties ever, DRG's same thing as pups. Now THF's are being knocked from parties and MNK's as well because they "Can't" preform with the parties setups. Which is out rageous because id take a MNK or THF over a DRK DNC COR anyday why are they being cut i dont know i dont party, just the anger from the MNK, THF's in mys shell.

Now leaving RDM for a bit i would like to talk about NIN, possibly the most overlooked in terms of sheer possibility. Since its immersion into the game NIN was unfairly dubbed a "tank" and has been that way ever since. Now lets looke at ninja's abilitys for a bit, dual weild, ninjutsu (none of which are provoke or spike hate grabbing). Now /war yes a ninja does get voke but these "Blink Tanks" lose hate usually before voke is ready, and without shadows are pretty squishy. Now im not knocking NIN tanks some are great most are terrible. Now this isnt what i wanted to talk about this is just to show how NIN has been unfairly pushed into something it cant get out of. NIN is one of the most versatile jobs next to rdm, it can tank, pull, dd, back-up tank, SATA hate, and be apowerful magician.

The elemental wheel used as much as rosie odonell uses a tredmill. Possibly because of the outrageous price in tools or what i think is the lack of knowledge give to players about it. So i will talk about it before i delve further. The elemental wheel is a powerful elemental magic tool. The spells themselves are relativley moderate however add a cut in resistence to the stronger element in the wheel for example You cast Hoyton (ice) > Katon (fire). by castinf Hoyton first Katon will no do more damage to the mob.
this is the elemental wheel flow chart.
Hoyton>Katon>Suiton>Raiton>Doton>Huton>Hoyton
Ice>Fire>Water>Thunder>Earth>Wind>Ice

example you are fighting a Bat Mob- WIND > Earth / Ice > wind

so you see the mob is wind based so he is weak to ice but strong to earth and neutral with everything else. So you think to yourself how do i cast to earn the most damage. Well seeing as the mob is weak to earth you would do this

Thunder>Earth>Wind>Ice>Fire>Water

This will have thunder hit normally, earth hit with virtually no resist, and ice will hit double because it is stron already, also if you have a good blm he can cast on your Huton and hit blizzard hard.

Now why dont we see this set up, because the community hasn't the slightest lue how ninjas work outside of being a tank. INT + ELEMENTAL SKILL + JUJITSU + MAB all affect spell damage. Now why dont more NIN /BLM or /RDM (post lvl 60) for this. It i possible to Upwards of 1500 damage by spinning the wheel. Which can be done faster than a blm who casts a T4 spell. Now the arguement of shadows, well lets see 1500 damage in a shortime is pretty mean thing to do, shadows up no damage and uninterupted spell casting.

So we can weigh the pros andcons of these a blink tank that more often then not slows party down because it cant hold hate or a Elemental specialist that can reduce a mobs HP in 10 seconds. Do we get his type of assistance no because the community at large dosent even know the possibility of this. 2 broken jobs fixable by us not SE, lets see what else i can dig up that will make our live easier ill get back to you.

so begin by casting Earth a

[Glued]

in reply tothe above postees, i am aware of those set ups as well and am not discretiting, i think rdm/nin is a powerful tank. Im also curious on sch potential and am activley leveling it to see how it can work. for us.

specifically to icemage

that is unfourtunate to hear you did not get to participate in the golden age of rdm but to discredit is appaling. personally wether or not you did it does not mean it was not done, ive played rdm in roles that are considered obscure but that is the nature of our job, or was.

I understand at 75 you have the opportunity to use all those glorius subs and i cant wait till im 75 again to do so myself, but now the role of rdm has shifted from a versatile xp party member to that of a 2nd rate WHM. Perhaps xp parties will soon move to Wotg where mobs are weak and strong and a revival of the versatile RDM and traditional party will reamerge. These things i am putting forth are based around traditional parties and the 12 jobs we had to chose from. I understand the greater choices have pushed us out, hell we dont even need to come to parties for refresh and haste if there are brd's and cor's there. EXP parties dont even need us to come cure with dancer in party now so where does that leave us if we rely on /whm or /blm TP burns out number traditional parties why invite a mage when you can get melee to fill in.

[IfritnoItazura]

Oh i forgot another role RDM played in the day, RDM/THF was used widely for pulling and SATA when thf's were not available.
This is a joke, right? :rofl: Well, at least it's funny, either way.

I just find it embarassing that the majority of people dont know the history of our jobs capabilities or roles.
Hey, good thing you know about RDM/THF's SATA power. :biggrin: Go-go SATA Fast Blade at Lv.60!


Now this isnt what i wanted to talk about this is just to show how NIN has been unfairly pushed into something it cant get out of. NIN is one of the most versatile jobs next to rdm, it can tank, pull, dd, back-up tank, SATA hate, and be apowerful magician.
SATA again! ;) (You kind of left out debuff'er, by the way.)

So, NIN is "unfairly pushed into something" like tanking because... it's efficient at it? Goodness, what horror!

(Some more NIN stuff; mostly about the Nijutsu wheel.)

Do we get his type of assistance no because the community at large dosent even know the possibility of this.
The community at large doesn't know? Not really sure, but at least this community discuss the damage potential from Ninjutsu wheel from time to time: http://www.ffxionline.com/forums/ninja/67665-about-start-up-nin-help-2.html

[Glued]

how often do see NIN use elemental wheel even /war damge output aside? personally like i said as often as rosie uses a tredmill. Sure they can discuss it, how many ninjas do you see lose hate, how many times have you died because mr nin thinks an utsu spam can hold hate. I was saying as a broad spectrum because people dont use therefore dont know about it . Why dont they get kicked because of it if i came to a praty without haste/refresh/dispel id be droped. Is it any different no ninjas suck at tanking unless they use this technique which is rare and thats why you see the good ninjas from the bad. Is the same as RDM you can tell a bad rdm from a good rdm from the spells he utilizes and his ability to control a haste/refresh cycle. How many times have you pulled hate from a ninja using dispel, me at least 3 times a party, and why because they are to cheap to get the tools or dont know about it. Again i say if i was to cheap or lazy to aquire my spells whould i have a spot in the party, not for long. So why can this job get away with half assing it, because they have shadows, do your job or gtfo.
Also no ninja isnt efficient at tanking, unless someone good is at the helm if i pull hate from a dispel or casting an enfeeble then something is wrong, I can tell you i can spam Teir 3 and AM on my BLM all day and not get hate from a PLD but dispel common a ninja cant even hold that pathetic.

Also i was just browsing the forums and found an intersting debate in the ask SE questions section,asking SE how they though RDM was/is to their plan. Its interesting to see the comments in there are on the same page i am, is this problem i have and share fixable sure it is i can make a party for CoP areas, but why should i have to alter a camping area to appease my self from TP burns,

[Icemage]

I have only one other contribution to make to these wall-o-text Cheese and Whine Celebrations.

If they made RDM any better, they'd have to nerf it. Red mage is already one of the most powerful jobs in FFXI. Giving it any more power would upset the balance even further - and that's even considering that it has lackluster melee damage.

Seriously, take your tears and cry to your friendly neighborhood Puppetmaster. I'm sure they'll have buckets of sympathy for you.


Icemage

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Starting to think we should just start a collective RDM Boo-Hoo Thread. Job has everything going for it and whine, whine, whine.

"I wanna use my sword."
"I wanna be more than a healer."
"I wanna enfeeble."

You can sit there and hope SE's update is going to swing things to how you want to play the job. I can garuntee you that all the updates in the world will not change the role you will be invited for. RDM will never be invited to be a damage dealer and so long as you choose to party in ToA camps, you will never be an enfeebler... unless you sub /DNC and I'm sorry but people will see right through that.

But the moment you build small PTs and EXP in the VIABLE, EXISTING zones not under the rule of the Empire, guess what? Yeah, you won't get faster, easy EXP. Tough shit, but what you will get is to rest with no TP loss, you will get a slight EXP boost, you will get fast recovery +hHP recovery for that group. You'll get to DD and enfeeble as "intended."

You won't get anything sitting there sitting an whining in the zillionth topic on the matter. Face it, your party role has been long since established - there is no redefining it. The mind of the community is set on what your role is and they're not wrong for inviting you for what they want, you're wrong for expecting them to invite you for other reasons.

[IfritnoItazura]

so long as you choose to party in ToA camps, you will never be an enfeebler...
My RDM leveled through ToAU camps... I enfeebled! :biggrin: Good thing, too; saved a good deal of MP that way. (Even when I was afraid of regular Colibri's Parroting, I used Slow on them.)

Oh, on my PLD, the RDMs I had in parties typically cast enfeebs as well--apparently RDM casting enfeebs is still the standard practice, and I'm not crazy. *shrug*

Even in merit parties, my RDM still cast enfeebs, Greater Colibri camp aside. (That one gets reduced down to Dia II, unless the DD and tank sucked.)

I've seen exp parties asking the SMN to stop using Avatars, but never--not even once--had one asking myself or any other RDM to stop using all enfeebling magic. ("NO BIO!", yes, but that's technically Dark Magic. :P)

* * *

Try Imps without Silence; I guarantee you can tell the difference from either the front line or the back line.

* * *

If you meant "enfeebler-only", that's different; no one would invite a RDM just for enfeebs.

Then again, RDM was never supposed to just an enfeebler; the pre-ToAU RDMs love to tell stories about MB'ing, and saving parties with Cure or Escape when the WHM run dry, or when party have adds and links which refuse to sleep. Crazier tales involve Gravity, Bind, Sleep I/II/ga, ten minutes of kiting in tight space, and mission impossible recoveries from half-wipes with multiple hostiles at camp in the pre-despawn era.

"I only cast enfeebs!" is a wacky idea from deranged players; real Red Mages have always known better.

[Mhurron]

Play RDM outside of just Merit/EXP parties. If you only play in one type of party, don't be surprised if you're invited to fill the same position.

I <3 magic bursting when I could.

[Icemage]

Play RDM outside of just Merit/EXP parties. If you only play in one type of party, don't be surprised if you're invited to fill the same position.

I <3 magic bursting when I could.
True. When I'm not using RDM for merits, I swap up my role, subjob, gear and macro configuration to suit whatever I'm doing, be it sneaking around in The Garden of Ru'Hmet, tackling a NM like Charybdis or Fafnir, or just helping someone farm for coffer keys in Beadeaux, and I get a lot of mileage out of that.

The flaw in the logic in this thread is that these additional roles can somehow be effectively migrated into an XP party setting.

My merit parties are usually configured along the BRD RDM <another bard/corsair> DD DD DD lines, completely obviating the need for another support, and instead allowing two pullers, and more effectiveness for all DDs. There is no way a meleeing RDM can do everything I do in the course of one of my merit parties. They won't have enough spell accuracy, they won't have enough cure potency, they won't have enough MP flow, they won't have access to status cures, and most importantly, they won't make near the same amount of XP that I do per unit time. And since the point of XP/merit parties is to make XP, the rest of the arguments fall completely by the wayside.

EDIT: I just noticed Glued's little comment about the "golden age of RDM" (lol). My response is that I've been playing this game for quite a bit longer than he has, and unlike some, I do remember what a disaster RDM used to be. I remember when Convert, Phalanx, and Refresh were new. Up until then, it was a chore to convince people to invite a red mage to a party. Just ask one of the JP version players, like Jei or StarvingArtist, what pariahs Red Mages used to be. "Golden Age"? Pshaw. Red Mages have it great these days.


Icemage

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

very few people realize RDM was once down at the level of something like PUP, though PUP isn't nearly as pond-scummy sounding as it was before last August and /DNC as a sub only helped improve things more for it.

[Callisto]

I have to agree with Ice on this, I think RDM is at the top of its existance at the moment. Yeah, sometimes you need to main heal if you want fast XP, but grinding out levels is the most mundane part of the game anyways. It's not how you get to 75 and earn your merit points, it's what you do with them.

I'm in high demand for absolutely every event you can do, XP, Dynamis, Limbus, Sky, Sea, Salvage, Assault, you name it. I have a 75 BRD and COR which I almost never get to use, because my RDM is so useful to the people around me.

I never spend more than 10 minutes with my flag up, regardless of if I'm healing or not.

Outside of XP I'm never expected to main heal, I'm a refresher, an enfeebler, a party buffer, and at times a DD. Just the way I should be.

I earn more gil per hour than my 75 THF friends can from being able to solo Sky NMs, which no other job can do.

I earn and retain more XP than anyone else due to my near limitless abilities to get out of a jam that other jobs don't have.

With so many jobs that are semi-broken(THF), completely overlooked(PUP), and many times excluded(BLM), I can't say RDM is in any sort of decline when the largest complaint I can come up with about my job is not having Enlight or Endark.

[Sabaron]

So you're still whining about having to backline eh, and continuing along the line of your pointless subjob combinations. Now tell us that people used RDM/BST circa 2003 to solo Very Toughs or that RDM/DRG is the latest in DD combinations.

Now as for the flamers out there ready to pounce on this i care less this is fact, this is our job, flame on and enjoy the way you play. As for the other people out there i hope this hits home, the death of the rdm is somber and we need to fix it.

I like the fact that you pre-referred to flame posts (as though you intended this thread to create such a situation), but my absolute favorite line of your post is the very first one...

"Many of you know me as a outspoken whackjob on these forums but i come to you tonight filled with the utmost sincerity. "

LOL...just...LOL... How presumptuous. Why would you refer to yourself as though you were some kind of high-tone forum note? Isn't that a bit egotistical? It sounds like the first line of a speech from a fake political figure...for some reason my brain is screaming "Queen Amidala", but I don't know why. Use of this type of language and credential dropping seems to indicate that you're trying to assume a position of experience and wisdom or attempting to create propaganda to manipulate a particular population (usually new people) into "sheeping" you.

----
To answer the question of why you were allowed to use such a plethora of sub-jobs in the early days:

Everyone was new. It hadn't been determined with any certainty that certain sub-jobs are better than others, generally speaking. Through use, testing, and analysis we know have a better understanding of the methods that work and those that don't. Therefore, subs like your RDM/PLD tank have been deprecated in favor of better alternatives like RDM/NIN, and the mechanics of /THF SATA are now known and are not particularly useful to RDM other than as a Treasure Hunter--RDM/THF is deprecated in favor of RDM/DRK or RDM/WAR which are much better for improving melee DoT. It's not a Decline, it's an Evolution.

As for Staff skill, I don't want it. Red Mage's traditional weapons are rapiers and similar light swords. Our selection of weapons is extraordinary already--the fact that a Red Mage actually has Archery skill is horrendous considering that Paladin doesn't get it. Seriously, look at our physical skill set:

Dagger (B)
Swords (B)
Club (D)
Archery (D)
Throwing (F)

Evasion (D)
Parrying (E)
Shields (F)

No other mage job gets two B class weapons. We get two B's AND two forms of ranged attacks to use against lesser mobs. We also get three native defensive skills and better armor than any mage other than BLU (which is virtually the same as us). How can you complain?

Red mage has never been a one trick pony. You've obviously been ignoring the soloist, small-group, alliance, and multi-alliance tactics that RDMs use to do insane things. You're generalizing the role based on our XP party role which is centered around maximizing sustainable healing in as small of a package as possible (i.e. just one Red Mage) which is one of our best features for XP. A WHM/SMN with sanction cannot produce the same sustained mp output as a RDM--in fact, no other mage can. That is why the XP role has been highly specialized. It's the "Energizer Bunny" role that is most useful in an XP party. I think you need to do some non-XP work--your character is new (even if you may have had one before). You haven't even seen half of what RDM does end game now. I will say, however, that some of your sub-job combinations just don't pass numbers and won't ever be popular. That you ever got to use them is merely due to lack of knowledge of their inferiority and not because the game has somehow changed to make them less useful. It's also not a "traditional values" thing or a bunch of "noobs with preconceived notions" trying to rain on your parade--it's numbers.

[Olorin401]

I think the OP has a valid point, in that the many roles that RDM was originally able to fill have been narrowed over time specifically in the endgame.

However it's the same point that everyone else is trying to make. As the job has been defined with merits, other jobs that fit specific roles better, newly available subjobs and gear, and many people with many years of experience testing and tinkering with the job its roles have become more polished, but the original idea of RDM being the jack-of-all-trades is still there.

Enfeebling - If there's one thing a RDM can do all on its own, it's outshine everyone at enfeebling. I haven't seen too much about sub-SCH but I imagine it can only add to RDM's edge through Dark/Light Arts skill boosts, MP conservation, and access to Drain, Aspir & Regen 2.

Healer - In EXP/Merits it outshines even the properly-defined WHM, if only because of Refresh and Convert. As a WHM75 I've kinda come to terms with this.. Q_Q

Crowd Control - You can sub-DRK for Stun or BLM for Sleepga. Either way is good in an environment with lots of mobs. And both subs also give you access to Drain and Aspir.

Tanking - As Calli mentioned, RDM/NIN is a monster in HNM especially when geared and merited to its full potential. If you've seen one in action, you know what we're talking about. It's a helluva sight.

[Callisto]

As for Staff skill, I don't want it. Red Mage's traditional weapons are rapiers and similar light swords. Our selection of weapons is extraordinary already--the fact that a Red Mage actually has Archery skill is horrendous considering that Paladin doesn't get it. Seriously, look at our physical skill set:


I would like Staff skill of at least a C simply so I don't have to cringe at having 72 Attack when I open up my Equipment menu. :wasted:

Really the only other thing you could ask for is access to Vorpal Blade without a specific sub-job, and maybe higher Sword skill(BLU having an A- is a bit of a sore point for me, they aren't the ones called Fencers and Duelists after all), but w/e, nothing merits can't fix.

[Glued]

perhaps my veiw of rdm is skewed since leveled with 5 other RL friends (each taking a original 6 job to 75). Maybe or maybe not i had a lucky ride. But the thing is i learned to fill in the role of the missing member and was able to do all the things most people couldnt, or say we can't. I know its possible and thats the only reason we were able to continue to XP at times. maybe my veiw on golden age is skewed because of this, however being a one trick pony until your 75 doesnt sound very golden to. why not, well considering our job is the most versatile in the game and changes dramatically to our sub choice, it makes me upset were reduced to being pigeonholed into a role best suited by WHM. WHM BRD COR and 3x DD > than having a rdm in the party, so it dosent sound to appealing to me when we rely on WHM's to not play anymore to get an invite. Maybe some of you that seem to be trouncing everything i said had the trouble of leveling and thats to bad congrats on making it through. To me the job is stale to what i once remember it being. The game balance itself with the /nin craze and TP burn has caused a rift in traditonal game balance. To have any hope for people who want to play RDM as a RDM they need to make traditional parties more favorable. Perhaps by altering the way curing is reflected by healing magic. Make it similar to how elemental works. Also perhaps utsusemi should be looked at altering the amount of shadows based on ninjitsu skill level. I dont know i remember pre TouA when parties usually consisted of RDM WHM BLM TANK DD, DD where PLD was used as tank over NIN. But we see now PLD's becoming increasingly scarce and the NIN/NIN takinging over. In tdays party situations MP kills xp an hour so why rely on any job with MP to fit in. BLM has already been cut, WHM is on the ropes, PLD's are over looked for blink tanks. Now with DNC RDM can be replaced and filled by a COR or BRD or both to increase speed of melee kills. So to say we are better off now is horse shit, we are no better than a WHM and might as well start to teach people the basics of being versatile. Sure 10k/hr is nice but sitting AHT URGHAN lfg is 0/hr and its only a matter of time before RDM is to join its backline friends. 2x haste from Brd Haste from DNC and AoE haste from blu (using diffusion) Eliminates us as a required TP burn member.


Think many RDM know how to build a good CoP party or even a traditional X/P group for ToUA zones. To say RDM is better off now than it was is reaching for a quick crutch, but but we get invites all the time. When we got convert refresh i had many invites just by putting it in my search con that i had them. How often is it in parties now you refresh outside of yourself? Again i say balls to the notion we are better off than we were. Our position in parties has een able to make or break them no RDM no thanks party disband. That is what i consider a great era, when the hopes of a party relied on a RDM, a life saving bind, kiting small areas, saving the whm's butt, collecting links, MBing, raise party while riding stoneskin phalanx to is max, a quick escape, then converting and doing it all again. To me that sounds like golden era, whats the story now, hey guys guess what. I just Cure tanked my way to 75 and dont have a good story to tell, except i dont have self respect anymore. Or hey guys you shoulda seen me, i just cast haste X nmber of times and only had had to refresh myself man im so badass. Give me a break you honestly expect me to beleive that RDM is well off please for the sake of sanity think about things a little harder. Our sole purpose of being invited is gone, what do we have to fall back on non existant traditional parties? maybe so MB parties. Unfourtunatley the time in th the sun for RDM in ToUA has expired thanks to DNC we arent needed as much as we think we are and consider yourselves lucky your still getting invites. because to me MP slows down XP/HR in burns so why invite RDM/WHM/BLM/SMN when DNC/COR/BRD can cure haste refresh the entire party with out needing to rest or ride a convert timer, thank your stars.

[Callisto]

What you're failing to acknowledge is that XP is a miniscule part of this game. You can't base RDM's place in the game on how they are preferred in XP, or else BLM would just be eliminated from the game altogether. RDM is absolutely irreplaceable for its roles outside of XP. 1-75 XPing can barely be considered the same game as doing actual endgame events.

As far as XP, main healing is boring, but we're not talking about 10k/hr here all the time. RDM BRD COR DDx3 reaches upwards of 30k/hr, and the time you aren't spending grinding out merits and XP is time you can be spending actually doing other stuff, and honing your skills as a RDM there(there is nothing you can do in XP that will make you a better RDM compared to dealing with 7+ Dynamis mobs at a time, pulling in Limbus, debuffing in big fights, and tanking in HNM). And it's not like healer's the only role you can take in XP. Most of my party invites are to be a puller rather than a healer, and I'm usually requested to be /DRK.

Add: Just because SC+MB is dead in XP parties for the most part doesn't mean it goes unused. Leave the XP parties and step into a real fight, you'll see it's alive and well.
________________

Saying that RDM is better off now would be spot-on, because we can accomplish so much more than we used to. Did anyone believe monsters like Charybdis and Seiryu were soloable in '04? Hardly. Did anyone think that a RDM could tank major HNMs better than PLD or NIN back in the day? Not a chance.

[Mhurron]

I would like Staff skill of at least a C simply so I don't have to cringe at having 72 Attack when I open up my Equipment menu.
Really, you'd think a Mage would have a Staff skill of something.

[Glued]

Well its good to know we are still gods at 75 and we get our dignity back at least. 65 Levels being stuck as a pseudo WHM can be ver training on ones mind 5 levels to go till i never have to deal with being a cure bot i cant wait. I should have just reativated my old account then i wouldnt have this whole hatred towards the way we are forced to XP. I agree totally where is my enlight endark SE and hows about some teir 2 enspells. Also has anyone ever heard of an Enpell causing a burts? is it posible, i think that would be great if they could to add to our overall damage output. Aside from that i think im going to do some campaign and then fight maat maybe i will win today. Stupid git loves to asuran fist me, and if i get chainspell blinked one more time im going to cry.

[Icemage]

and if i get chainspell blinked one more time im going to cry.
That's what Silence is for.


Icemage

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

I earn more gil per hour than my 75 THF friends can from being able to solo Sky NMs, which no other job can do.

OK, feet back on the ground please. Cuz most people aren't solo farming sky NMs to start with and your server has to have DEAD sky activity for that even to be possible on a "per hour" basis. Also, BST solos Despot, RDM gets technicality because there's nothing to charm in the palace :P

Second, RDM doesn't solo for EXP. Brag all you like, very few RDMs have the time or patience to do that. That's different from BST, BLM or PUP who are pretty much overlooked for EXP PTs despite any improvements. But when you have that time and are willing to invest, the rewards are large. Most BSTs I know are never short of beastmen/kindred and have some maxed crafts to boot.

Side Rant (really nothing to do with Callisto): RDMs love to brag about solo, but too often, they give RDM credit for what Avesta does. Guess what kids, Avesta has gear you can only dream of having. That's almost as much to do with how well as it does being a RDM, in fact, I'd say gear is much more to do with that.

So its not so much that RDM can solo something as Avesta can solo something as RDM.

[Dim Mahk]

I havent play'd this game that long but RDM was my 1st job started and I really like playing it. Im at level 60 RDM and I really really hate being your Main healer/ refresher/ Haster/ debuffer/ last ray of hope. I get invites all the time when my flag isnt even on. And if I even grace the thought saying " OK, I'll party. Gather together where". the party turns out to be 4/6 MP users and no flipen WHM in sight. And they want to pull mobs like its the ultamate party there in. Meanwhile, Im at home with my fingers all twisted from cycling menu's and I think I have carpultunnle now. So I for one don't level RDM unless theres a WHM and/or BRD or COR at the least in the party.

If you want to know what it feels like to be used and abused. Lvl RDM to 60+ in the year 2008. I bet you tell me you feel like they rode you hard and put you away wet.

(+.+)

[Mhurron]

Meanwhile, Im at home with my fingers all twisted from cycling menu's and I think I have carpultunnle now.
God created macros on the 6th day for a reason.

[Callisto]

OK, feet back on the ground please. Cuz most people aren't solo farming sky NMs to start with and your server has to have DEAD sky activity for that even to be possible on a "per hour" basis. Also, BST solos Despot, RDM gets technicality because there's nothing to charm in the palace :P

I'm not saying most do, I'm saying that the potential for it to be done is there for RDM, and not for any other job. And I'm not sure what it is like on other servers, but at least 3 nights a week I could walk up and grab SC and/or Zip with little to no competition(if there is it's either a good RDM comrade of mine or one of 2 JPs that I run into up there on a frequent basis), and walk out with 400k worth of gems in 2 hours. Sky isn't exactly the new happening thing, and it has peak hours just like every other event, these mobs are only 4~ hour repops. Maybe that's only my server, but the farming potential is definitely there, it's paid for 6 HQ staves in the last month(roughly 2.4m).


Second, RDM doesn't solo for EXP. Brag all you like, very few RDMs have the time or patience to do that. That's different from BST, BLM or PUP who are pretty much overlooked for EXP PTs despite any improvements. But when you have that time and are willing to invest, the rewards are large. Most BSTs I know are never short of beastmen/kindred and have some maxed crafts to boot.

Of course not lol, soloing for RDM for XP is pointless when I can have a party in 5 minutes. I never would say to solo for XP unless you're doing something like farming Sea organs and don't want to split loot.


Side Rant (really nothing to do with Callisto): RDMs love to brag about solo, but too often, they give RDM credit for what Avesta does. Guess what kids, Avesta has gear you can only dream of having. That's almost as much to do with how well as it does being a RDM, in fact, I'd say gear is much more to do with that.

So its not so much that RDM can solo something as Avesta can solo something as RDM.

I agree with this for the most part, but just because he did it first doesn't mean he's the only one doing it. Belkin has also taken down anything in Sky that's soloable, Hongman and myself do SC and Zip frequently, and I know I could do Charybdis if his window happened ever when I'm not at work. :vent: Aside from the Seiryu example, and I guess Faust as well, you don't need the gear they have to pull this stuff off. I personally don't have any Salvage pieces, no Duelist's Chapeau or Crimson Mask, no Crimson Cuisses, no Dalmatica, and I deal with Elvaan INT and MP, and it doesn't hold me back very much. I just choose to optimize the potential that I'm capable of. So no, not everyone is out doing it, but if they wanted to they could be, instead of just bitching about how they don't want to main heal in XP.

My main point is that XP is only XP, it's not the game. Get out of XP parties and go experience some real content as a RDM, then after you do if you still feel that you weren't used properly come back and bitch then, but until you've completed expansions, fought Dynamis/Limbus bosses, Sky and Sea gods, and maybe a few HNMs as RDM, stfu about RDM being limited or in decline.

[Olorin401]

My main point is that XP is only XP, it's not the game. Get out of XP parties and go experience some real content as a RDM, then after you do if you still feel that you weren't used properly come back and bitch then, but until you've completed expansions, fought Dynamis/Limbus bosses, Sky and Sea gods, and maybe a few HNMs as RDM, stfu about RDM being limited or in decline.
If anything, RDM right now is underused in endgame because everyone is levelling BRD and BLM lately!

[Callisto]

If anything, RDM right now is underused in endgame because everyone is levelling BRD and BLM lately!


Look who's talking! :P

[Yellow Mage]

Really, you'd think a Mage would have a Staff skill of something.

Red Mage != Mage

I think that's what this thread is all about.

[Glued]

RDM = whatever it needs to be thats what this thread is about

[Mhurron]

If anything, RDM right now is underused in endgame because everyone is levelling BRD and BLM lately!
And I wish they'd stop so I wouldn't have people camping in the same spots I want to camp at.

Red Mage != Mage

I think that's what this thread is all about.
I think you'll find Red Mage is indeed a Mage.

[Mhurron]

RDM = whatever it needs to be thats what this thread is about
You mean as long as being a Main healer isn't what's needed.

[Karinya]

Now tell us that people used RDM/BST circa 2003 to solo Very Toughs or that RDM/DRG is the latest in DD combinations.

Actually... I know someone that solos RDM/BST. He's over 60 with it. I'm not sure if soloing is his entire exp source, but he definitely kills things solo. (Maybe not VT though, I haven't asked or watched.)

RDM/DRG is still junk, though. You just can't build a primary DD on B skill with a one-handed weapon and no main-job DD traits. Combining two real melee jobs - DRG/SAM or /WAR, SAM/WAR or /THF, MNK/WAR, etc. - will blow RDM/anything out of the water without hardly trying. Even /NINs will outdamage RDM if their main job has A skill in a high-damage weapon.

Seriously - try a real DD melee job. You'll never be impressed by your RDM melee damage output again. (You *will* realize RDM's real strengths, that your other jobs so conspicuously lack. RDM is many things; high damage output is almost the only thing it *isn't*.)
No other mage job gets two B class weapons.
Scholar doesn't even get *one*.


As far as the Pink Mage thing goes - it's based partly on a drive to reduce the number of non-DDs to the minimum possible to kill as fast as possible, because in the super-abundant camps of TAU, you're unlikely to run out of mobs the way you could at old camps; and partly on the fact that your party takes very little damage because you're fighting pathetic wimps that can hardly hit a DD hard enough to have them notice (which means you can remove the tank, too).

I personally think that the wimp-slaughtering party style needs to be a little less disproportionately rewarded, exp/hr wise, but as long as the exploit is there, players will use it, and jobs that don't fit into that party style - like WHM, BLM, and PLD - will suffer; and jobs whose roles are distorted in that party style - like RDM - will play half their job. At least BLMs can manaburn - there's a reason WHM and PLD show up in Besieged and Campaign so much. It's a form of exp that doesn't rely on someone else inviting you to it.

Tougher mobs are already out there, but until SE adjusts exp values to make it worth players' while to fight them, they'll just keep beating up the same old (well, TAU-era) weaklings for 15, 20, 25k/hr. Why they heck wouldn't they?

[Sabaron]

...Pink Mage...

I like that. I've never hated Pink Mage. I've always found it to be extremely busy if a bit regimented. Half of your stuff is on a strict timer and the other half is on-demand. All-in-all a very good position to play imo. As for straight DD like MNK where you just sit on Auto-attack (you know how DD's AFK during battles and no one notices)--to me that is boring.


I find myself most often in the role of the Pink Mage even for other applications because it just fits. I gain a great deal of usefulness and versatility from the combo that is lost on other combinations. Of course, when I know I'll be meleeing, I usually try to bring /BLU (offensive mode) unless I need status cures. I take /NIN whenever I'm going to be getting hit (defensive mode) by blinkable mobs (anti-ninja mobs take /BLU). Other sub-job choices are quite circumstantial--chosen only as needed though I have taken /DRK out for a spin on the odd occasion where I'm not feeling /BLU ;).

/BLU is generally the best thing I can think of for front-lining at the moment. It's not really a true DD sub but then again, RDM isn't really a DD anyway I feel /BLU is the best general front-line Red Mage sub job because of the mp-efficient curing abilities, the customizable attribute shifts, and Vorpal Blade. /NIN is a great sub job too, but it's wasted if you aren't taking hits, so it takes a backseat to /BLU in most multi-player cases. /DRK is more powerful in terms of DD but it's also quite selfish. It does allow for limited additional MP restoration with (unsealed) Aspir and some other rather mediocre Dark Magic, but the magic side is rather lackluster overall with the exception of the Stun spell--/DRK as a DD sub is used for the periodic bursts of Last Resort and Souleater which push its overall damage numbers above that of /BLU by sacrificing multi-target and mp-efficient curing.

Now I know that Glued is all about RDM/DNC... RDM/DNC doesn't look spectacular on paper, but it may be useful in certain very limited-scope activities where the RDM must be on the front-line, is using large amounts of mp, and needs to cure frequently, but I cannot think of a single situation in which /DNC would beat another of RDM's sub jobs.

As for the /BST thing, I'm aware that RDM/BST is occasionally brought out and has some interesting applications, but it's definitely not useful in higher level battles because the charmed pet will be facing monsters almost twice its power--a 40th level crab versus a 75th level goblin isn't going to be the most useful pet in the universe. Pets are excellent for pulling, but /SMN is far better than /BST for two reasons: (1) Summoner pets automatically attack hostiles without the master issuing a command (saves you enmity), and (2) they can be summoned anywhere without fail (unless interrupted).

[Glued]

its fantastic how this is sliding once again towards another frontline/backline debate. Considering thats not the point of this at all, i know rdm can frontline, you know rdm can front line, i know it can back line, you know it can backline. Whats your point, Talking about jobs such as RDM/DRG first of every job combo i have put down changes a role of a RDM, and is used at one time or another by said RDM. /DRG how ever is not and never was, and i cant see it every being. I did not say we are DD's and somehow when ever someone mentions red mage melee people always jump to the gun. "well rdm cant DD as good as a WAR or a DRG with a A skill" no shit, you think we all dont know that, neither can a NIN, or a DNC or a THF or a PUP or any thin other than WAR SAM DRG DRK MNK. Thanks for bringing information to the table my left nut already new about you can have this /clap.

I am not all about DNC i am looking at dancer, to me sch looks like shit on paper but ill be checking it as well, thats what i do i like to know what my job can do when where why and how. I dont care about what you think about the job combonation i come here to share with people that are like me that enjoy toying with things, that may pop up incertain situations. for example, moving around vanadiel easier. Through beadeux without needing to brng echo drops, because you get SNK invis from /dnc, no that must be shitty. Im not going into why dnc is effecient because ive done it else where.

Its funny to see you people knock players like myself, like wfbbq did to hyrist in hs Hybrid rdm forum, because we are trying something new that may threaten the way you play your job it must be wrong. Or maybe your jealous because more nd more people are trying new things and different roles, when you had to cure bot it to 75, i know i am at times. I dont know why the RDM community cant accept new things people try, really it is the only one that seems to have that problem. Everybodys gotta be the same, hop in the cookie cutter and get baked. I have finally found out what i dislike about RDM, its you all of you who trash on peoples i deas and turn them in flame fests. Always taking it back and steering it to a rdm frontline/backline disscusion so ppl get fed up with it and topic gets burried.

This topic was written not to debate FL/BL it was written to discuss the decline in skill of our job, and thats what it is our skill has dropped. All you people that say well this and that can be soloed, have you soloed have the shit you mentioned or have you just seen avesta do it on you tube?, you think people will know how to properly function at endgame being cure bots for their whole time. Sure XP isnt everything but it takes XP to get to the good stuff it takes XP to teach you the ins and outs of the job. Perhaps i was fortunate enough to level with our refresh and convert, because i acctually had to learn to play the end game aspects of my job first then got to play with the toys.

So i say once again the problem is not with rdm its with the rdm community, you, me, the little guy waiting to punce on this and flame it. Its not as if im telling people how to play their jobs, im offering suggestions to people that perhaps they take time and learn these roles we play before they end up eating dirt in a dyna or assualt, so once again RDM community congratulatios on turning another topic into the endless melee debate /clap,/cheer you guys are real winners.

[Spinnthrift]

Glued - the whole Rdm/Drg thing is kinda a joke reference to it being one of the only, if not the only job that can solo Rank 5-1 Mission; The Archlich fight.

It's not a case of going Rdm can't fight, they can, just not well. I'll repeat what others have put up before me, and what I've said also. Level a melee job and you'll appreciate why you shouldn't be meleeing. The best a Rdm can get to is mediocrity by melee standards. And I don't mean that offensively, I'm just stating the honest truth - Rdm isn't melee main, and shouldn't be in exp, which it would appear is where you are now.

Your arguement for /Dnc having Sneak/Invis is flawed - if you'd said, hey, Rdm/Dnc works great at mining in Mt Z, that would have been better, but still flawed (as an example of an efficient exp sub job). In contrast as Beadeaux has no magic detect mobs if I remember correctly, and /Whm allows you an easier time of bypassing the silent ones as you can Cursna yourself without needing to try and tp up with a fraction of your hp (so, yes in this case, /Dnc is inefficient).

Actually, your arguement about DD's is flawed also. Nin's a very solid DD, as is Thf when geared properly, just that their best weapons are so rediculously hard to get it's a joke, and I don't mean BD, although that also has a shitty drop rate. Pup, I don't know about, but I know we used to use one for Salvage bosses as they did insane damage with their automaton, so I wouldn't write them off entirely.

I think your standpoint of arrogance is mired by the fact you still can't beat Maat. Tell ya what, make a melee build of Rdm and beat Maat with it. Video it and post the video. Then I'll take you seriously.

I'm not entirely sure that your left nut as you put it knows entirely as much as you believe it to. Because - shoot, I've out DD'd Sam's, Monk's, War's and Nin's on Thf. Then again, I've been out DD'd too in other situations.

Rdm isn't an efficient DD by sheer terms of casting. How do I know? For the same damn reason when I play Nin/Rdm I leave the katana's in the MH. When making spells, I don't have time to swing (added to which the Ele Staves are just shiny). So, on Rdm, when I'm swinging, I'm not casting. Or if I'm casting, I'm not swinging. And if I'm not swapping weapons out - then I'm making my spells worse. And if I am swapping my weapons out, then I'm losing TP. And if I'm losing TP, what is the point of me trying to melee with truly mediocre damage, when I'll never make a decent weaponskill?

ESPECIALLY - when I'm the most desired job for exp parties other than brd, for healing, and I have a butt ton of things I can do on my own to play around with. Rdm isn't on a decline at all. It's at a peak where it looks down on other jobs and says "I AM A PRINCESS! WHERE'S MY TABLE DANCE?" and you know what? It gets it.

So then.. that begs the question: "Why is your Rdm on the decline?"

Because you're fighting so hard to be at best mediocre in a world where the conditions have forced players on mass to become hyper efficient, and like the fishes that swim upstream, most die in getting there. A handful don't die on the way up, but the majority do. You realise, you could just join the crowd that doesn't want to waste their money and everyone else's money and get it right... then when you're getting it right, swap and do your own thing then.

[IfritnoItazura]

Its funny to see you people knock players like myself, like wfbbq did to hyrist in hs Hybrid rdm forum, because we are trying something new that may threaten the way you play your job it must be wrong. Or maybe your jealous because more nd more people are trying new things and different roles, when you had to cure bot it to 75, i know i am at times.
Trust me, they wouldn't be jealous of you. :rolleyes:


This topic was written not to debate FL/BL it was written to discuss the decline in skill of our job, and thats what it is our skill has dropped.
Why do you assume there's a decline in skill? I, for one, am glad no RDM is going to party as /THF "for pulling and SATA," as you put it. :rofl: Discarding minimally useful tactics to concentrate on the core duties seems like a good thing. If that /THF thing is what you did in the past, I'm sure glad the RDMs of today ignore that idea completely.

In my opinion, whether there is a decline in skill or there is not, you are not qualified to judge.


so once again RDM community congratulatios on turning another topic into the endless melee debate
Aww... Mr. RDM/THF for SATA (and pulling!) doesn't like melee debate--I'm heart broken.

[Glued]

Ive already made it clear i rarely party if at all, I campaign my exp now for nearly as much as i would get in a party and i can play as multiple styles of RDM. Again im going to say im not tooting the RDM DD horn im saying it can, it dosent take a genius to know or melee damage sucks, but it does take one to understand why it dosent entirley suck. Im not saying were great casters either clearly we are not, we are a mediocre Job in everythig we do with the exception of enfeebling/enhancing. Our sheer versatility allows us to alter our job specifics by subing other Jobs to hone or skills into that area. Im not trying to sound like a know it all bragart but i do know the flaws and limitations in our job. I also know the reason our job is invited to party, which is why i proudly sport {Main}{Healing!} {No Thanks!} and you know what i still get invites asking me to main heal. This is the reason i campaign for exp now, so i dont need to deal with that, i can use any sub i want and not give a shit or have people try and shit on me like a certain whm/thf in my server. This was a rant nothing more than that, our job isnt flawed i was getting pissed off ingame from a certain whm/thf who had the nerve to tell me rdm/whm is the only role our job can play. So i snapped and here we are, i probably dont need to tell you the name of the player she is pretty infamous, but her name starts with an A and ryhmes with banana. This outrageous jerk off argued with me for 45 minutes, or argued with her self i dunno i wasnt paying attention. Claiming all rdm's were lazy and whiney because they couldnt be melee, which isnt the case for most of us. I could care less to melee, if im needed to ok i can do it. But whm/thf tried to tell me i had no purpose to /nin in an xp situation. First off who tells me what i cant and cant do, you can ask me and i may comply or just let you rep me. Secondly how the hell does a whm/thf think she can talk about jobs to sub, is this so when im 75 and happen to merrit with her i can refresh her and haste her because she is meleeing and do her job. This is what made me think about the roots of our job and how much i missed it. I suppose it came out as a flame posting and im sorry i didnt mean any malcontent by it. Its just a rant, reminding people we have more to offer to parties then /whm so the whm's can /thf and melee, if this is where the world is going then i will be picking up a sword and swinging long before a whm gets near the mob.

sorry for wall-o-text just woke up kinda grogy atm.

[Celeal]

Form your own party.... 50%+ of your problem is solved....

Or static party, even better....

I believe if it is a party, we have to factor in the party members and the surroundings.

Level another job, a front-line job.

[Icemage]

I campaign my exp now for nearly as much as i would get in a party
I think that comment about sums it all up right there, folks.


Icemage

[Ziero]

...so a gimp made fun of you for being gimp in a pt and you say everyone else sucks?

In exp PTs, Rdm is best as a support job. That is the ONLY thing I would ever invite a Rdm for, to support the party. But for EVERYTHING ELSE IN GAME, Rdms can and WILL fill other roles specific to each said event.

EXP IS NOT THE MAIN PART OF THE GAME.

Rdm/Nin has it's place in game, but lvl 60-ish pts are not that place. Rdm/Drk has it's place in game, but lvl 60-ish pts are not that place. And Rdm/Thf has it's place in game, but *any* exp pt is not that place.

So it's not a decline of skilled Rdms, it's the insistance that EXP pts are an important part of this game and a diva complex where *you* want to be the sole reason the party succeeds.

[Callisto]

EXP IS NOT THE MAIN PART OF THE GAME.

So it's not a decline of skilled Rdms, it's the insistance that EXP pts are an important part of this game and a diva complex where *you* want to be the sole reason the party succeeds.


Thank you, that's what I've been saying all along. You can't say there's just a 'decline in skill' specific to RDM, because really when it comes to XP it's like that for all jobs as a byproduct of ToAU camps...however some of the people who are lazy in XP or prefer TP burn for their form of merits still shine above others when it comes to real content.

I know several RDMs who main heal for all of their XP just because it's easy and they can do it while watching TV. These same RDMs are also some of the few ones I'd trust to land a Stun, Bind, or Gravity at a critical time in a big fight.

I am not all about DNC i am looking at dancer, to me sch looks like shit on paper but ill be checking it as well, thats what i do i like to know what my job can do when where why and how.


I really have been abstaining from calling you out on things, but that right there shows you don't know a thing about taking RDM into a real event. On paper SCH looks absolutely fantastic for XP, Limbus, Sea gods, HNM, kited fights, and just about absolutely anything that doesn't specifically need Stun, Sleepga, or status cures.

Its funny to see you people knock players like myself, like wfbbq did to hyrist in hs Hybrid rdm forum, because we are trying something new that may threaten the way you play your job it must be wrong.


That's cute, but really you haven't read much of our RDM forums or you'd know that you're talking to the wrong crowd(see numerous threads on maximising RDM DD output and out-there subjobs). Most of us play RDM the correct way, which is every way possible depending on the situation. Sometimes the best thing for the group you're in will be you having -na spells and AoE cures. Sometimes you need Sleepga. Sometimes you need Stun, and sometimes you need supplemental DD.

The RDMs on these forums are some of the most knowledgeable out of any I've interacted with, if they knock something you suggest, in all likelihood it's because you're probably wrong, and they know b/c they've tried it. I myself will tell you that RDM/THF is balls for anything in XP, I know because I've tested it, along with /RNG. If you want a pulling sub use something that can actually beat people to claims while retaining some sort of useful MP/Stat bonuses, damage mitigation ability, and utility spells, like /DRK or /PLD.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Glued, your problem is that you want to force the issue of how you want to play RDM an EXP PT.

That melee you invited to PT is competing with hordes of other melee and that's not accounting for his time to play and real life situation. He might have kids, might have to work 40 or more hours a week, he might have a couple hours to play between classes in college. It could be anything.

What it boils down to for most players is getting that EXP quickly and effectively so they can not only move on to other fun things in the game, but spend less time playing the game and attending to RL things as well. They don't want the game to tie them down.

That is why things are the way the are. That is why RDM is invited to do what it does. There are plenty of other instances in the game to play how you want, but how you play in EXP is always going to have limits and you should strive to make things as easy as you can on everyone.

But seeing how hard-headed you're being, you're going to do it the hard way.

Fine, build your own PTs then. You may find people unwilling to go along with you. See above again to see why.

[Mhurron]

On paper SCH looks absolutely fantastic for XP, Limbus, Sea gods, HNM, kited fights, and just about absolutely anything that doesn't specifically need Stun or Sleepga.
Oh great, another damn subjob to level.

[Ziero]

Oh great, another damn subjob to level.

I know your pain, I'm honestly starting to worry that Dnc may have a use as a sub for my melee jobs myself =(

[Callisto]

Oh great, another damn subjob to level.

I'm having a hell of a time with it too, longest it's ever taken me to get a job to 20. :o

Luckily my LS picked up a couple of more RDMs recently so I may be able to sneak out of some events to work on SCH sub in the next week or two.

And for OWTFBK: Walked into Sky around 10pm last night and nabbed another SC + Zip with no competition lol, is Sky actually busy on your server? ^^;

[Sabaron]

Soloing != Avesta.

RDM Soloing isn't about doing impossible things. It's about doing things that other players would have to duo or rest frequently. Farming higher level mobs for things like coffer keys and doing some quest NMs is always fun. I had fun trioing Kamlanaut with a 75NIN and a 65RDM (She needed it) as a RDM Backline DD. I've tanked Celestial Avatars and I've done very well soloing them though I haven't yet mastered actually finishing them off--such takes practice. I've also pulled in XP/Meripo as "Pink Mage" at the Mook/Puk/Skoffin camp (which is barrels of fun).

Also, you don't generally "curebot all the way to 75"--sometimes you're going to be invited to do something else like Refresh/Support with another healer like a SMN or WHM--in many of these instances, subbing BLM and doing some moderated nuking is part of the XP job. However, you will find that these XP combinations are sub-optimal with an XP rate in the 5-10kph range. In the 20-30kph parties you'll be Pink Mage...Sorry...that's the set up and it works.

How can a discussion of RDM's roles not involve sub job choice? Red Mage's party role revolves around the sub job you choose. Sure you can melee as /WHM, but why not choose /BLU? It's a better choice for the role you're playing. There are only two things that change when you change roles--those things are sub-job and gear. Would you like to discuss gear instead?

/SCH has limited usefulness for a RDM. The basic function of /SCH is to give yourself B skill in Dark Magic for Bio/Drain/Aspir. It also gives access to Regen II, and reduces overall MP costs. We don't really need Aspir in most cases, so another sub will usually be the choice. WHM, however, can really get some mileage out of the /SCH sub.

[Callisto]

Sure you can melee as /WHM, but why not choose /BLU?

Because learning BLU spells is the rough equivalent of running your genitals through a cheese grater. :lipseal:

It's at a peak where it looks down on other jobs and says "I AM A PRINCESS! WHERE'S MY TABLE DANCE?"

Thanks Spinn, that's going in my search comment from now on when I flag up! :biggrin:

[Callisto]

/SCH has limited usefulness for a RDM. The basic function of /SCH is to give yourself B skill in Dark Magic for Bio/Drain/Aspir. It also gives access to Regen II, and reduces overall MP costs. We don't really need Aspir in most cases, so another sub will usually be the choice. WHM, however, can really get some mileage out of the /SCH sub.

It also gives a nice boost to Elemental Magic, with the other normal boosts available to RDM you can hit 300+ skill, it makes a pretty big difference, and I believe it gets slightly more MP than /BLM, but I'm not high enough on SCH to compare them yet. You're right that most subs will see more use, but the fights that /SCH would be good for it'd likely be better than other options(mostly Sea fights off the top of my head, Jailer of Temperance would be a huge example, Ix'Aerns, most Limbus zones, but also many types of fights that you might do with low #'s, such as Gration, the Ugly Pendant NM, Faust, and Despot.

Edit: Whoops, looks like automerge is disabled, is there a manual way to do it?

[Truece]

... and I believe it gets slightly more MP than /BLM, but I'm not high enough on SCH to compare them yet.

That's what I thought, too. Especially since /SCH has Max MP Up traits... However, /BLM gives a greater MP boost than /SCH. The difference was around 30 MP at level 75.

[Callisto]

Thanks Truece, have you gotten a chance to play with it extensively yet?

If so, what have you used it for and how'd it go?

[Truece]

It is hands-down THE best subjob for WHM. I won't sub anything else unless I'm doing teleports or need warp for some other reason. I've said in another thread that /SMN gives 20 MP/min via Auto-refresh. With /SCH, so long as I can aspir once per minute for more than 20 MP (which was very common for me on Dynamis mobs), then /SMN loses its appeal.

As for RDM, I used it in one PT and I didn't have a very fun experience, primarily 'cause they had me pulling and I didn't have a chance to really explore what /SCH had to offer. I think that if I'm not main-healer and not puller, it would be great. I absolutely LOVE having decent aspirs and Regen II is great (so long as the main healer doesn't cure over it). Plus with Light Arts up, I can alternate refresh & haste with only a 1-2 sec delay (normally it was 6 secs left on recast, iirc).

I didn't really see a great opportunity for any of the strategems, though. Since I wasn't nuking, I was only really using MP-intensive spells once every 30 mins, and even then Penury doesn't help a whole lot IF you've gotta buff the whole PT. Then again, 50% saved is 50% saved, so if I could just remember to use it, I'm sure it would make my MP pool seem that much bigger.

I haven't given up hope, however and would love to try it again. The problem is that I've been doing lots of campaign lately, where I tend to play solo, or in a small PT where normal PT dynamics seem to be tossed out the window. /BLU for the defense and vorpal blade has been amazing (it's fun watching a boss NM use an AoE move and seeing everyone around me fall to the ground, when I didn't take a point of damage through stoneskin & cocoon & phalanx :) ).

The next time I get in a merit PT or go to sky, I'll try /SCH (and let the PT know that I want to explore the job combo a bit more deeply) and report my findings back here.

[Gobo]

All available Fast Cast Gear+Celerity/Alacrity is probably the best shit-hit-the-fan combination. With all that you cast at ~22%. Its limited, good for really fast emergency cures, sleeps, SS if you've pulled hate and your's in down, etc.. Really haven't gotten too much of a chance to try it out, since I hardly play anymore during the weekdays and only for a few hours on the Weekends.

[Truece]

All available Fast Cast Gear+Celerity/Alacrity is probably the best shit-hit-the-fan combination. With all that you cast at ~22%. Its limited, good for really fast emergency cures, sleeps, SS if you've pulled hate and your's in down, etc.. Really haven't gotten too much of a chance to try it out, since I hardly play anymore during the weekdays and only for a few hours on the Weekends.


That may be, but I find that in a pinch, I don't have a cool enough head to activate the strategem and then cast the spell. Until I get used to that, I find that I'm faster with the spells if I just cast them without using a job ability.

If things are looking that bad and I need spellcasting speed, I'll just chainspell anyways.

[Icemage]

Alacrity sucks unless you've got some specific reason to want faster casting speed at a predetermined time (claiming NMs) or just want to boost a super-long casting spell (Teleports).

It's pointless to use Alacrity on something like Cures; you'll lose more time activating the ability than you will save on the spell.

I'll echo what Truece has said though; RDM/SCH is pretty meh. Regen II, some MP, improved Drain/Aspir, slightly more accurate nukes, and sometimes a cost savings on spells if you happen to have the right Arts active at the time. It's not that these things are bad... they're good. It's just not as generally useful as other, more specialized subjobs for Red Mage. RDM/WHM is better at healing. RDM/BLM is better at nuking and has more utility spells to draw on. There's not too many occasions where you need to split the difference.

WHM/SCH, on the other hand, is a match made in heaven. Unbelievably good subjob for WHM.


Icemage

[arkaine23]

Regarding /SCH: RDM/SCH is a better nuker than RDM/BLM. Better mp efficiency, lower recasts on stuff like Bind/Gravity, much more accurate nuking to the point of downgrading skill gear for more INT/MAB. Reliable Drain/Aspir. You can stay in dark Arts most of the time if solo, and the reverse if in a party. The only real downsides are the lack of Sleepga, ES, and Warp/Escape.... really is just ES and Sleepga. Arts > Conserve MP by itself to say nothing of dropping a tier 3 nuke every 4 minutes for ~60mp. The thing about /SCH is being in a situation where you can stay in one Art 90+% of the time and don't need to flip back and forth a lot.

General thread topic: RDM has more roles than ever these days. Sure 97% of the time we're expected to play just one of them. But we can tank HNM. We can tank xp in some level ranges. We can play massive support via /BRD /COR or /DNC. We can melee DD in certain level ranges when free of our healing role. We can magical DD with /SCH. We can enable an alliance to zerg HNMs. And we can mix and blend in between these roles fairly well, always having our enfeebling, light nuking, light melee, curing, enhancing covered from main-job spells/abilities.

If you don't like being a dedicated healer/haster/refresher with enfeebles you can build your own parties, ask party setups and be selective before joining a pickup, or go solo. I capped merits and xp for RDM so you can bet that I never play it as a merit party healer.

[Icemage]

Regarding /SCH: RDM/SCH is a better nuker than RDM/BLM. Better mp efficiency, lower recasts on stuff like Bind/Gravity, much more accurate nuking to the point of downgrading skill gear for more INT/MAB. Reliable Drain/Aspir. You can stay in dark Arts most of the time if solo, and the reverse if in a party. The only real downsides are the lack of Sleepga, ES, and Warp/Escape.... really is just ES and Sleepga. Arts > Conserve MP by itself to say nothing of dropping a tier 3 nuke every 4 minutes for ~60mp. The thing about /SCH is being in a situation where you can stay in one Art 90+% of the time and don't need to flip back and forth a lot.
As a pure nuker, perhaps. Depends on what you're fighting, though. With enough magic accuracy, assuming you're not nuking something that's IT+ to you, you can get very consistent nukes just with an HQ staff, AF1 hat, and an Elemental Torque. Plus /BLM gives Magic Attack II bonus trait (which, unlike MATK+ level I, does stack, as I recall), which isn't something any nuker should be sneezing at.

Against IT or higher enemies, I agree /SCH is a somewhat better nuking sub as long as you don't need the other utility spells due to less expensive and more consistent nukes, but I find that Elemental Seal is very useful in most such situations, which counterbalances the effectiveness of greater efficiency.

General thread topic: RDM has more roles than ever these days. Sure 97% of the time we're expected to play just one of them. But we can tank HNM. We can tank xp in some level ranges. We can play massive support via /BRD /COR or /DNC. We can melee DD in certain level ranges when free of our healing role. We can magical DD with /SCH. We can enable an alliance to zerg HNMs. And we can mix and blend in between these roles fairly well, always having our enfeebling, light nuking, light melee, curing, enhancing covered from main-job spells/abilities.

If you don't like being a dedicated healer/haster/refresher with enfeebles you can build your own parties, ask party setups and be selective before joining a pickup, or go solo. I capped merits and xp for RDM so you can bet that I never play it as a merit party healer.
Yep. There's tons of opportunities to do things other than just be an Energizer Bunny in a merit party. What most of the objections come in is that the idea is being held forth that those other roles are in some way superior to the Energizer Bunny Pink Mage role in merit or XP situations. It's just not true unless you're beating on wimpy Colibri (which don't give that much XP at level 75 anyway)... and in most cases, probably not even then.


Icemage

[IfritnoItazura]

As a pure nuker, perhaps. Depends on what you're fighting, though. With enough magic accuracy, assuming you're not nuking something that's IT+ to you, you can get very consistent nukes just with an HQ staff, AF1 hat, and an Elemental Torque. Plus /BLM gives Magic Attack II bonus trait (which, unlike MATK+ level I, does stack, as I recall), which isn't something any nuker should be sneezing at.
I don't think MAB stacks, and RDM has MAB II natively at Lv.40.

Don't have HQ staves, but I did have Elemental Torque and artifact hat when I had that SC+MB party on Trolls. Magic accuracy was bad when not casting on MB, and even on MB I noticed some resists. (Makes me wonder what those RDM/DNC advocates would do, hanging on to sword and dagger for TP... Guess they won't nuke.) Don't quite remember what they con as...

Against IT or higher enemies, I agree /SCH is a somewhat better nuking sub as long as you don't need the other utility spells due to less expensive and more consistent nukes, but I find that Elemental Seal is very useful in most such situations, which counterbalances the effectiveness of greater efficiency.
From my perspective, /SCH is better for RDM who needs his nukes a lot. Which utility spells were you thinking of from BLM that's so needed, since /SCH already (better) cover Aspir and Drain?

What I have in mind for duo'ing with a BLM or another RDM, kiting style; have to schedule White Magic spells and Black Magic spells one minute apart for long fights, but it seems to have a lot of potential. At Lv.75, C+(230) vs. B(250) means a 20 skill point deficit; that's a lot of accuracy difference. Probably even more dramatic for the E(200) ranked Dark Magic for Aspir.


Yep. There's tons of opportunities to do things other than just be an Energizer Bunny in a merit party. What most of the objections come in is that the idea is being held forth that those other roles are in some way superior to the Energizer Bunny Pink Mage role in merit or XP situations. It's just not true unless you're beating on wimpy Colibri (which don't give that much XP at level 75 anyway)... and in most cases, probably not even then.
Oh, I dunno... It's quite possible to configure a party that makes RDM/something-else more useful than RDM/WHM. BUT... The real downer for those who try to do that is that they discover it's not as good for exp/hour, compared to the now standard BRD + RDM/WHM + "tank" + DD x3.

It's not RDM/something-else is wrong or inefficient per se; it's just that where that fits, the configuration for the entire party is less than optimal for exp/merit points.

Of course, bad players can ruin exp/hour faster than non-optimal but still functioning set up. I've never refused any invite because of the job of the leader--WHM, PUP, whatever in party is just fine with me. For idiots, I keep a list of people to avoid... >_>b

[Icemage]

I don't think MAB stacks, and RDM has MAB II natively at Lv.40.
I seem to recall it doing so, but that was a long time ago. Should be easy enough to test, in any case.

Don't have HQ staves, but I did have Elemental Torque and artifact hat when I had that SC+MB party on Trolls. Magic accuracy was bad when not casting on MB, and even on MB I noticed some resists. (Makes me wonder what those RDM/DNC advocates would do, hanging on to sword and dagger for TP... Guess they won't nuke.) Don't quite remember what they con as...
Trolls are all high VT to IT+ if we're talking about the ones on Mount Zhayolm near the ramparts where Cerberus spawns.

From my perspective, /SCH is better for RDM who needs his nukes a lot. Which utility spells were you thinking of from BLM that's so needed, since /SCH already (better) cover Aspir and Drain?
Sleepga, Warp, Tractor and Escape. Rarely necessary, but all three are nice to have in various situations. There's a level of safety involved with /BLM that's missing from /SCH. When I use RDM/SCH, it feels like a dysfunctional glass cannon - not as fragile as BLM/SCH, but eerily similar nonetheless and far weaker in the damage department. And there's nothing like Elemental Seal + Bind/Gravity/Sleep II as a get-out-of-jail free card.

/SCH makes RDM a somewhat less mediocre nuker than usual, but let's not kid ourselves; it's still mediocre when your best available nuke is Thunder III. Chances are, if you're not by yourself, you're going to be better off supporting what other party members are doing rather than trying to rely on the weakest RDM attributes.

What I have in mind for duo'ing with a BLM or another RDM, kiting style; have to schedule White Magic spells and Black Magic spells one minute apart for long fights, but it seems to have a lot of potential. At Lv.75, C+(230) vs. B(250) means a 20 skill point deficit; that's a lot of accuracy difference. Probably even more dramatic for the E(200) ranked Dark Magic for Aspir.
In that situation, yes, RDM/SCH would be decent.

Oh, I dunno... It's quite possible to configure a party that makes RDM/something-else more useful than RDM/WHM. BUT... The real downer for those who try to do that is that they discover it's not as good for exp/hour, compared to the now standard BRD + RDM/WHM + "tank" + DD x3.

It's not RDM/something-else is wrong or inefficient per se; it's just that where that fits, the configuration for the entire party is less than optimal for exp/merit points.
Exactly. Really, if Colibri didn't exist, this conversation would be dead before it began; there's precious few enemy types I'd prefer to get up close and personal to if I had any choice in the matter.

Of course, bad players can ruin exp/hour faster than non-optimal but still functioning set up. I've never refused any invite because of the job of the leader--WHM, PUP, whatever in party is just fine with me. For idiots, I keep a list of people to avoid... >_>b
Agreed, for XP parties, you can make all sorts of things "work" with enough effort. I've done some bizarre setups in the past, and once in a while they work out (NIN NIN NIN RDM BLM BRD is a particular fond memory), and there's the few times I anchored a manaburn party as RDM/BRD + 5 BLMs which was amusing, if migraine-inducingly difficult.

But there's just no denying that it's easier and less stressful to make a functioning party with the job combinations that work best for each circumstance. Sure, I can probably find a use for a WHM/NIN, or a RDM/SCH, but making up for the shortfalls of unusual combinations puts more pressure on the other party positions to perform above expectations.


Icemage

[Gobo]

Job traits of the same type don't stack. PLD/WAR doesn't get the Defense of 2 Defense Bonus I, SMN/PLD doesn't get 2 Auto-Refresh, DNC/NIN doesn't get the TP reduction 2 Subtle Blow I/II and so on.

And we are forgetting the most important part of /SCH. Resist Silence!...no wait /BRD does it better with Resist Silence II. Silly me. XD

[Callisto]

I don't think MAB stacks, and RDM has MAB II natively at Lv.40.

That's correct, repeated job traits do not stack, though /BLM might eek out stronger nukes w/ higher base INT.


From my perspective, /SCH is better for RDM who needs his nukes a lot. Which utility spells were you thinking of from BLM that's so needed, since /SCH already (better) cover Aspir and Drain?

What I have in mind for duo'ing with a BLM or another RDM, kiting style; have to schedule White Magic spells and Black Magic spells one minute apart for long fights, but it seems to have a lot of potential. At Lv.75, C+(230) vs. B(250) means a 20 skill point deficit; that's a lot of accuracy difference. Probably even more dramatic for the E(200) ranked Dark Magic for Aspir.


Yeah, this is right on, I guess the reason I'm all for /SCH is due to doing so many low-man fights, especially kited ones, where that extra 1/tick of Bio actually makes a big difference. I also can't count the number of times a Nyzul Isle run has come down to Adamantoise with 3 minutes left, where the key to winning in enough time to not lose the drop is me Chainspell nuking him down, and /SCH would make a huge difference there.

I wouldn't think of taking it into Dynamis or Sky, where Sleepga or Stun are so useful, but against HNMs that are immune to both(most ground kings), or places where you don't really need stun and don't run into large links(Limbus, Nyzul Assault) I think it'd still be super useful, there's nothing really in any of these places that you can land with Elemental Seal that you can't land without, so that wouldn't really be a factor either.


Of course, bad players can ruin exp/hour faster than non-optimal but still functioning set up. I've never refused any invite because of the job of the leader--WHM, PUP, whatever in party is just fine with me. For idiots, I keep a list of people to avoid... >_>b

Fantastic point, lol. About 3 weeks ago I had a LS party that averaged 12k/hr(that's official # from EXPWatch plug-in), that consisted of a 75BLU/WAR tank, a 70 BLU/THF, a 71 DNC/NIN, a 68 RDM/WHM, a 75 DRK, and me on COR. That setup is absoltuely asinine, but due to having good players it worked great(the BLU tank was getting something like 17mp/tick back between Refresh, Evoker's, Sanction/AutoRef, Ethereal, and Aspir Samba).

I personally just take whatever role I get invited for, unless the party is still forming, then I just choose my setup depending on what's LFG. I've played RDM/WHM healer, RDM/DRK puller, BRD/NIN buffer/puller, and COR/RNG buffer/DD, all in the same party depending on what we could find to make the best setup possible.

[Gobo]

I remembered something from when I first got SCH to 37 and goofed around with RDM/SCH. If you cap on Fast Cast through Gear (AF hat, Relic body, Loquac earring) the -10% spell casting from Arts will have no effect on spell casting speed. With or without Arts you cast at ~43%.

[Callisto]

Yeah I figured there'd be a hard cap somewhere. At the same time, I have all of those pieces so Fast Cast isn't really anything I'm looking for, however 10% MP reduction on nukes is a whole other story.

Also, did you see if the recast timer reduction from Arts still took effect?

[Gobo]

The recast reduction still takes effect :D

Wlk. Chapeau+1 +Duelist's Tabard+Loquac Earring w/out Light Arts=19 second recast on Stoneskin, 13 second recast on Haste



All that+Light Arts=17 second recast on Stoneskin, 11 second recast on Haste

[Yellow Mage]

Where does Casting Time reduction cap?

Also, this has been bugging me for a while:

Red Mage != Mage

I think that's what this thread is all about.

I think you'll find Red Mage is indeed a Mage.

You would say the same for Blue Mage, then? They should get a Staff skill, then?

You mean as long as being a Main healer isn't what's needed.

http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e127/rprice80/LFGFIX.gif

[Callisto]

I want to say it's at about 42-43%. I've been meaning to test it with Reraise for months and I never remember to when I'm on /WHM. I'll try it tonight hopefully. If what Gobo says is correct, it's whatever you can get from the 3 FastCast+ pieces and 74+ RDM. I was always unsure whether that was the hard cap, or just the most possible due to the limitations set by available gear, but so far it appears to be the hard cap.

[arkaine23]

Recast cap is 50%. Lol full-time Celerity/Alacrity.

[Yellow Mage]

I was asking about Casting Time. Does reduction to Casting Time have a hard cap, sans Chainspell?

[arkaine23]

Its difficult to tell since you're eyeballing the casting bar. Game lag can throw all your testing out the window.

Prior to /SCH, the fastest casting we could possibly test was ~43%. Telling the difference between 53% and 50% (if it was to cap at 50% like recast does) is not going to be easy.

[Callisto]

It seems different for different spells for me even, it is pretty hard to test. My longer spells look like they go off at 43% like they should, Stoneskin seems to go off at 39%. Although, I would suppose on something like Raise it would be easy to tell if Light Arts is making a difference in casting time. Mebbe I'll change my g/f to a lvl 1 job and kill her off a few times this weekend lol.