RDM/DNC rehashed

[Glued]

sorry for posting a whole new read i couldnt find the original RDM/DNC post

Several weeks ago i toyed with the notion of rdm/dnc, did some test and defunct it.
well i recentyly dinged 69 onrdm and got dnc to 37 and have done some more tests bit in party and out of party and this is what i have found.
My first implications when testing this job were a biased look at what it does for the RDM not the party and have since gone back and looked at this again

IN Party

Traditionally called the melee mage, but i like Hybrid rdm better so i will use that

This set up allows a hybrid mage to do more for its party while on the front lines, while not negating from requiring a whm for main heal (RDM,SMN are not main heal imo) a hybrid rdm/dnc allows for greater MP conservation, as well as greater party assistance. Provided their is no other dancer or /dnc in the party your role will be a front line eraser saving the whm precious MP. This extra MP saved can extend chains or save lives, in addition to refresh you have already increased MP conservation for the party.

In addition to being a frontline eraser you also posses the ability to wake en-masse with divine waltz, instead of a whm casting a curaga one cure spell to you will wake the party, saving MP more and increasing the chain or survivability of t party.

Another party bonus is the Sambas, these allow you to replenish party members HP/MP depening on your choice and what the party needs, providinga prepetual refresh or regen to all party members.

As well as the steps and flourishes, lowering a targets evaision and def, is invaluable as it stacks to diaII or allows us to use BIO II and keep defense down as well. Animated flourish +Stoneskin/Phalanx can provide a quick 2nd voke if the NIN tanks shadows are hard to get back up, saving MP once more partying without the use of cures as much.

In the event a weapon skillchain is called out and you are required to open or close you can freely use your stocked TP to do so as you still have all your spells to assist the party in a frontlie hybrid role.

As for equipment setups it does require a decent acc setup to acheive respectable amounts of TP if you plan to do this you require 75%-80% minimum hit rate, having borrowed some gear from friends to test this i had roughly an 80-83% rate and was building tp at a respectable rate. (borrowed a SH, PCC, 2 woodsman rings, chivalrous chain, and a few other peies with ATK and ACC +)

recomandations for weaponry are your call, JoyToy would be best for TP building but if thats not available like to me at 69 i just went with a low delay dagger.

Solo

Soloing with rdm/dnc has allowed me to do things most cant, rdm/nin may still be greater because of its invincible nature, however /dnc holds its own perks as well.

Basically i solo in campaign now just to test this out and see what i am capable of. the multiple cureing traits etc are a life saver, silence = death for a rdm soloing the lack of shadows isnt to important as most mobs like to toss out AoE spells which wipe them anyhow.

My experiences with /DNCin campaign have led me to some decent experience, no wehre near what i get rdm/blm but its fun soling the mobs there and have people checking you.

Keeping SS up is not to hard of a chore if you know the trick to it, and TP is built immensly fast against these mobs, it takes a while to kill because of rdm crappy attack however it is possible. Personally i have not tested this against any NM's with the exception of WHM AF NM in fei'yin which i was able to trio with a whm a pld and myself rdm/dnc which was pretty nice seeing as it called for a party of 75's on the wiki.

anyhow i had to return my borrowed equipment and cant carry on with tests until i can either borrow it or i buy my own, will update solo and party section when i get more abilities to use

[Yellow Mage]

Personally, I'd rather have somebody else maining Dancer in the party than sub it myself. (Hellooo Stutter Step! Nice to meet you, Aspir Samba II!)

[Celeal]

I think there are issues need to be address for RDM/DNC...

Does the RDM/DNC has time to swing the sword or dagger?

First, Daze effects from Samba works only if the DNC's (or /DNC's) weapon hits the mob. Although the Daze effect would linger on the mob for a few seconds, in order to continue the Samba, the RDM/DNC needs to keep hitting the mob. Given the amount of magic casting from a normal RDM, those competent ones who actually fulfill the party's expectation, can the RDM/DNC keep up with RDM's duty and Samba?

Note: Samba has a long execution time, a restricted timer (unable to switch different Samba back and forth). Also, only 1 food, 16 equipment slots, and B rank weapon skill for RDM.

BTW, if the RDM/DNC is using Samba, he is not going to use Enspell.

Another issue with Steps and Flourish.

When /DNC, each Steps only yield one finishing move (if I remember correctly), and each Steps needs 10~ TP (if I remember correctly). Stuff like Animated Flourish will require 2 finishing moves, and a typical sword or dagger a RDM can use (I am not referring to those rare/ex toys...) is yielding 4 ~ 6 TP per swing, if landed with non-zero damage.

I think RDM/DNC would actively use Steps only, but not Flourish.

There is a serious issue the TP consumption and recast timer with Waltz too.

With Refresh, Convert, and Cures, I don't see any reason why a RDM would want to /DNC and use those Waltz in the first place.... there are better subjob choices like /WHM or /SCH...

With all those time spending on magic casting and time required for TP gain, I imagine the RDM/DNC would need 90% ~ 95% of melee accuracy and very good magic accuracy (low magic resistance) in order to address the issue I mention from above.

[Sabaron]

Why are we doing this again?

http://www.ffxionline.com/forums/red-mage/69279-front-line-rdm-update-2.html

RDM/DNC is not viable in 95% of parties you establish. If you're going to be front-lining, why not go /BLU? It has up-front AoE cures that are very MP efficient. If you need to "conserve mp" for whatever task you're doing, you shouldn't be front-line anyway because you're obviously doing too much back-line work (healing) to merit front-line work.

I cannot think of a party situation where I'd rather have you RDM/DNC than any of the following:

RDM/DRK (Stunna)
RDM/BLU (Front-line healer/melee)
RDM/NIN (Kite)
RDM/WHM (Main heal)
RDM/BLM (Sleeper/Two-hour Nuker/Escape Artist)
RDM/BRD (Maximum Refresh)
RDM/SMN (Pet puller)

As for your "Front-line Eraser" fantasy, it's not great. You could be casting Erase. Healing Waltz can't remove Bard debuffs (yeah, I'm aware that they're rare) and it's on your 15 second Waltz timer so it cuts out any of your curing-type waltzes. If you're fighting status mobs, you should be /WHM and in the back. You're seriously going to say that being up front eating Paralyzga from a tiger and then getting interrupted when you're trying to use Healing Waltz is better than back-lining out of the line of fire?

--Add--

More on the Erase idea. By being on the front line, you are adding 1 to the number of Erases per cycle needed versus AoE monsters, so you (or the main healer) has to expend at least one Erase to cure you so you've wasted 15 seconds of recast time just by being up front when you could be in the back not wasting 15 seconds. It also requires an additional "casting time" expenditure and as /DNC consumes TP or worse--consumes the main healer's MP. Therefore, the only situation this is viable is in a single-target status effect situation. Are you going to say that saving a whole 18MP (the cost of 1 erase) every minute or so is worth losing the abilities you'll lose by taking /DNC? Even your melee damage suffers as a result of taking /DNC. I don't see anything truly redeemable about the combination--seriously.

Even on solo I think it's flaky. Why would you want to heal yourself with Waltzes, wasting your TP, when you could be using Utsusemi to deflect the attacks in the first place? Are Drain and Aspir so powerful that it makes it worthwhile to lose your Shadows? What about Cocoon? Can your /DNC abilities beat Cocoon, Wild Carrot, the ability to use Vorpal Blade? /BLU is the choice for heavy shadow wipers because of Cocoon's ability to significantly reduce damage from blows--it is especially powerful in conjunction with Phalanx against mobs that rely on a flurry of weak attacks where shadows come up short.

Silence should never = death. That's what Echo Drops are for.

[Aliekber]

I'm sorry, Sabaron, but you're incorrect. Post-60 (where /DNC gives Curing Waltz II), in cases where heavy status-cures are not needed, just lots of curing, RDM/DNC can both out-burst-cure and outlast RDM/WHM over the long haul, even without Samba effects (i.e. it's still viable with DNC main in the party). Apparently new posters here can't post URLs, but if you go to the Allakhazam Red Mage forums, and look at the "Return of the Melee RDM" thread, the proof is there, on the last page (at the moment), written by an opponent of RDM/DNC who accidentally proved its superiority in this situation.

When no status cures are needed, RDM/DNC (with only 75% accuracy, at that) can at worst merely match RDM/WHM's curing ability. Introduce Samba effects, with a Joyeuse and a decent ACC/TP build, and there is no comparison. RDM/DNC wins by a landslide.

So it's useful in far more than 5% of situations, as you have stated. If you would like to continue to assert that statement that 95% of the time, other subs will outperform it, please provide evidence of your claim.

Edit: It's on the last page, not second to last; changed.

[Spinnthrift]

Aliekber, knowing quite how hard it can be for A ranked DD to hit 75% acc (without sushi on Colibri) makes me chuckle at Rdm's trying to.

Without either - exceptional melee gear or some madrigal's and decent gear, it won't happen. And it's only really useful on Colibri. Which to be frank - isn't a huge amount. Secondly, if your melee DD are good to fight without madrigals (rare, but happens), there is no way in hell I'd advise the Bards to gimp the real DD's damage output to sate a second rate DD's hit rate.

Third - do you really have the inventory space to carry round a *full* set of DD gear? As - on my DD jobs, I push my inventory... and I am well aware that decent Rdm's have real space problems. 8 staves, various swap pieces for everything, mnd set, int set, mab set, etc etc... you got the space for melee too now? Not saying it *can't* be done, but hell if I'm grabbing a pickup rdm to hope he can melee competently as well as keep a party running at full tilt.

Lastly - all the really good Rdm's in my LS (and we have 7 or 8) - seem to be much more interested in getting the decent mage type pieces, and are less focused on getting Joyeuse and the ilk. +sword skill Torque? They'd rather work on Stone Gorget's and the +skill backpiece from Sea. Weird that... not that they'd know or anything.

[Aliekber]

Aliekber, knowing quite how hard it can be for A ranked DD to hit 75% acc (without sushi on Colibri) makes me chuckle at Rdm's trying to.

Without either - exceptional melee gear or some madrigal's and decent gear, it won't happen. And it's only really useful on Colibri. Which to be frank - isn't a huge amount. Secondly, if your melee DD are good to fight without madrigals (rare, but happens), there is no way in hell I'd advise the Bards to gimp the real DD's damage output to sate a second rate DD's hit rate.

Well, a RDM/DNC never rests, so no need for +hMP food and Sushi is on the menu for all your +Acc needs. Secondly, without trying to compete for damage, only accuracy, you can use Life/Potent Belt (+10/+8), Scorpion Harness (+10), Chivalrous Chain/PCC (+5/+10), and Woodsman Ring x2(+10) for a total of +33/+40 ACC, putting them at a 285 Accuracy +32 ACC (from DEX) +10ACC (from /DNC) = 327ACC before Sushi and Sword Merits, at 75. I don't think having these pieces is out of the question, it just takes some effort to get them if you're willing to put in the time, all can be bought on the AH, and are useful for other jobs. Not to mention O. Hat, or Wal-Turban.

Third - do you really have the inventory space to carry round a *full* set of DD gear? As - on my DD jobs, I push my inventory... and I am well aware that decent Rdm's have real space problems. 8 staves, various swap pieces for everything, mnd set, int set, mab set, etc etc... you got the space for melee too now? Not saying it *can't* be done, but hell if I'm grabbing a pickup rdm to hope he can melee competently as well as keep a party running at full tilt.

No, but you don't need a full DD set, either. Just ACC/TP(/Haste if you can, as well) gear; you can leave WS and most +Attack/+STR gear in your MH. A RDM/DNC is only slightly more of a DD than a RDM/WHM is, it does some damage, but that's a side-effect of meleeing for TP, not the focus of meleeing. RDM/DNC is melee support (like a DNC), not melee DD (like a WAR).

Let me reiterate that: a RDM/DNC should first and foremost attend to his normal RDM duties, they are more important than damage. The only reason I even considered trying /DNC is that its abilities complement and enhance those of RDM main so well, if you can keep them fueled with TP.

Regarding invites, if they say they're coming /DNC to your party, you might want to ask them what gear/food they have. If they have good gear and are eating appropriate food, then I would give them a shot. If they're planning on meleeing in full AF and +INT rings, you can always tell them {Backline}{Job} only, or retract the invite. You can always kick them to the back/kick them out if they suck.

Lastly - all the really good Rdm's in my LS (and we have 7 or 8) - seem to be much more interested in getting the decent mage type pieces, and are less focused on getting Joyeuse and the ilk. +sword skill Torque? They'd rather work on Stone Gorget's and the +skill backpiece from Sea. Weird that... not that they'd know or anything.

Well, it's not like you can only have one or the other. If they're only interested in mage gear, and playing RDM from the backline, that's their choice. I don't think it precludes the rest of us from trying something new to examine its potential, though.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

If you would like to continue to assert that statement that 95% of the time, other subs will outperform it, please provide evidence of your claim.

The previous five years of RDM being a dedicated caster would be suffucient.

[Aliekber]

The previous five years of RDM being a dedicated caster would indicate that.

The previous five years where /DNC was available for comparison? Sure, I'll buy that. Oh, wait...

I don't think I'm off-base in wanting people to back up their claims, especially since I have yet to see any of the opponents of /DNC actually mention their experiences with it, or that they've even leveled it.

[Spinnthrift]

Well - I'd like to see you prove your accuracy claims other than just with Sushi but since I don't see you /checking merit mobs to work out exactly what evasion they have and quite the level of gear you need to get 75% acc.

I'll give you a little hint from someone who has though, namely me...

334 total accuracy *and* sushi only barely breaks 82% acc.

Your impressive 285 accuracy without sushi isn't touching 75% parsed accuracy, so thanks for piping up, but no... you're wrong. And I can back that claim quite happily, taking a naked Thf (bar dagger) with oh.. crap, more than 285 naked accuracy out, and go... bugger.. these con high eva. That means I'm not going to get 75% acc on them, and I can screenshot it too, for your pleasure if you really won't take my word for it. You'll just have to wait until I can be arsed to, which won't be anytime soon.

So - yes, you do need a full set of gear... Not some half arsed set, and only on Lolibri.

Why would people's experience count? For the same reason - I can be told someone's base attack and go, no way can you put out x/y/z damage on x/y/z mobs, with x/y/z weapon. Don't need to parse your subjob to understand the mechanics of the game. For the same reason, that when I see some Rdm's here go, outside of x situation, this won't work - I'll accept it at face value, because they have that 'experience' that I don't believe I'm qualified to disprove. If you want to disprove it though, let's see some videos! ^^

[Aliekber]

Well - I'd like to see you prove your accuracy claims other than just with Sushi but since I don't see you /checking merit mobs to work out exactly what evasion they have and quite the level of gear you need to get 75% acc.

I'll give you a little hint from someone who has though, namely me...

334 total accuracy *and* sushi only barely breaks 82% acc.

Your impressive 285 accuracy without sushi isn't touching 75% parsed accuracy, so thanks for piping up, but no... you're wrong.

Actually, if you look at that post now (as in, before you made your post), you'll see that I initially forgot to add in /DNC's Accuracy Bonus Trait (+10ACC), and the +32ACC from RDM's base 64DEX, and corrected it, resulting in 327ACC + Sushi, well within spitting distance of your 334ACC + Sushi = 82% Hit Rate figure. In fact, throw on an Optical Hat, Suppa, or a couple of Sword merits, and you're there.


And I can back that claim quite happily, taking a naked Thf (bar dagger) with oh.. crap, more than 285 naked accuracy out, and go... bugger.. these con high eva. That means I'm not going to get 75% acc on them, and I can screenshot it too, for your pleasure if you really won't take my word for it. You'll just have to wait until I can be arsed to, which won't be anytime soon.

Great, do it at your leisure, because even if your above claim is correct, the Accuracy I forgot to add in the first time puts the hit rate where it needs to be, past the magical 75% Hit Rate tipping point at which it becomes superior to /WHM.

So - yes, you do need a full set of gear... Not some half arsed set, and only on Lolibri.

Really? I wasn't aware that WS (a necessary part of DD gear, but not support melee gear) gear was necessary for RDM/DNC, who never WS. Leaving that out will surely save some slots.

Why would people's experience count? For the same reason - I can be told someone's base attack and go, no way can you put out x/y/z damage on x/y/z mobs, with x/y/z weapon. Don't need to parse your subjob to understand the mechanics of the game. For the same reason, that when I see some Rdm's here go, outside of x situation, this won't work - I'll accept it at face value, because they have that 'experience' that I don't believe I'm qualified to disprove. If you want to disprove it though, let's see some videos! ^^

As you said, they focus on the Mage aspects of RDM. I wouldn't expect their Melee experiences to count for much, as they don't care enough to even have gotten Sea Torques. If they have Melee experience, then I would be more inclined to listen to them. Otherwise, if their only real experience is on strictly-mage RDM I can be certain they would be experts at that, but when it comes to their opinions on Melee it would be rather like getting Brain Surgery tips from your Dentist.

Secondly, the burden of proof is on the presenter. If someone makes a claim, no matter how reputable they are, it's their job to back it up, not mine. The only time I ever have to say anything other than "prove it, and I'll agree" is when the evidence has been shown, and it is either insufficient, incorrect, or does not prove the claim. At that point it is my job to prove it wrong, and not until then. That's just good science/law/what-have-you.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

The previous five years where /DNC was available for comparison? Sure, I'll buy that. Oh, wait...

I don't think I'm off-base in wanting people to back up their claims, especially since I have yet to see any of the opponents of /DNC actually mention their experiences with it, or that they've even leveled it.

You don't need experience when you understand the job mechanics of both and how they're applied, when a RDM needs TP to keep curing, something is wrong. They shouldn't be getting that low to start with.

/DNC is better utilized in PTs by PLD, COR and PUP. Its a nice solo sub or small party subjob for the rest. RDM is too much of a dedicated caster to have time to melee for TP and if they do, again, something is wrong.

Some RDMs just don't get why they're invited to parties, apparently. Look at what they want you to do and then lather, rinse, repeat.

Or as Captain Kirk once put it: Why does God need a starship?

RDM played right will seldom get low on MP, so what are you TPing for cures toward?

[Celeal]

So far for those who play DNC as main job that I have seen, would gear all-out DD to do their task. A DNC has B+ dagger skill and ACC bonus Job Trait.

PUP/DNC, for instance, have their Automation to pick up their slack: Multi-tasking.

We have yet seen other solid job/DNC combination in exp. party without debate or doubt. SAM/DNC, anyone ^^?

Note: Both DNC and PUP/DNC in general does NOT use MP, unless the DNC/mage, or PUP/DNC use mage Automation (but that does not hinder master from hitting the mob).

Now look at RDM/DNC. In terms of melee, RDM is below DNC in terms of sword/dagger skill to begin with (RDM's B vs DNC's B+). In terms of work load, a PUP/DNC can split the task between the master and the automation. On the other hand, RDM/DNC has to manage his task on his own: Either the RDM/DNC has to cut back some magic in order to melee (compare to a back-line RDM), or other party members have to pick up the slack.

Just like a front-line job that cast magic while melee, like PLD, NIN, BLU. A RDM/DNC would have the same issue: DPS and TP gain is lower due to time spend on casting magic.

The only application for RDM/DNC I can agree is TP-burn Colibri parties, in which magic casting is minimal compare to other camps. If the party is going for Imps, Puks, Mamool Ja, Flies, or traditional area like Bibiki Bay for Dharml and Hob-Goblins, I don't see a reason for a party to build for a RDM/DNC for those camps.

Maybe at lower levels, in each the parties are hunting Crabs and Crawlers, RDM/DNC could be done.

[Spinnthrift]

Oh, and I did read through that thread on Alla.. it was funny. Your arguements are funny. ^^ But, since you're promoting Rdm/Dnc... along with Glued, check out his melee gear he's vouching for Rdm melee with. I'll give you another hint, it's not heavy on the acc side.

And Starfox's arguements explaining why feeding the mob tp are so very valid too.

Ironically, you've not grasped why people say no to Rdm/Dnc. How about this.. you feed the mob TP, which makes the mob do more WS's, more pecking flurries, more snatch morsels and more feather tickles. Which in turn hurts your party's output also... or doesn't it in your world? Because you won't be hitting hard enough to make a dent in it's HP without a decent set of gear... and with your half arsed gear, you''re *just* breaking 75% acc, but hitting weakly. Not that any of the melee Rdm fans would realise the importance of that though. So, your cures are weaker, as are your hits, and.. you don't get to WS, and if you ever have to sleep a link, well - your TP is gone then too.

Shit, Rdm/Dnc must be the new win sj of choice. Bad DoT, inefficient cures hp/mp or tp ratio, feeding mobs more TP than the dedicated DD do, so making more WS's on the melee, and generally reminding me why I kick pickup Rdm's who melee.

And as for the Rdm's who want mage gear? I'd pick *any* one of them to support a meripo over some pickup Rdm/Dnc because, they appreciate what extra healing drain bad DD is on a tank or DD. So even with your extra cures you can make, guess what - you're the reason they need them. Unless you're getting say Monk's Roll from a Corsair.. and whatever other joke setup you wish to provide.

Oh, and another thing, since you're only gearing for Acc, do you have any idea of the actual damage per hit you'll do? Please provide a genuine attack figure, as I can see you nicely hitting for crap damage without enough attack.. oh, wait.. no, you somehow magically get a full attack set too, and still have space for full Rdm gear and.. so on. ;)

Take care sunshine, I'd much rather have a Rdm/standard sj who I could take to Mamool, Kindred, Colibri, etc.. than a Rdm/Dnc who can only take Colibri, which only supports two decent parties... and right now, you're looking to be validating why that merit party sporting three DD three Support jobs have just pushed you out, because you're having downtime from making too many TP moves that you could have not had otherwise, or a sub par DD that you could have otherwise put a Bard in or Cor or genuine DD and the Rdm taken the support role which they excel at.

Yes, it has one real use - which is Colibri, and to be honest - I'd rather have a stable choice of support Rdm/Whm/Sch/Blm, who can make my party excel, so we can do interesting stuff than a sub par one who wants to hit things because he thinks he should be frontline. Oh yeah, it's your $12.95 a month or whatever... I'ma go bed now. Like I think happened with Starfox over on Allah, he had enough of trying to explain why not. I've just realised I repeated almost exactly the same principles as he did, and if a Rdm who seems to be well versed in melee, and a melee who knows how mobs work saying, you're slowing down a party aren't enough... then, nothing ever will.

[IfritnoItazura]

1. Low TP gain rate from lack of melee'ing time, because a RDM is busy casting spells.
2. What MP burden removed with Waltzes offset from lower MP return from Convert (due non-mage support job) and less time to rest for MP from the need to gain TP.
3. TP and need to change weapon are inherently incompatible. (RDM should use wands or staves to help with spell potency/accuracy.) Not switching weapon leads to more recasts, stressing out MP more, and reduced TP'ing time.

That makes /DNC looks like an ill fit for RDM under most circumstances. In particular, the issue of the need to gain TP and the need to change weapon are basically incompatible seem impossible to get around.

* * *

If a RDM does not use any offensive spell (thus reducing the need to switch weapon), and concentrate on curing only, RDM/DNC may work. That's if there's no nasty AoE to avoid, someone else taking care of status removal, etc. Keep in mind that while skill difference between DNC and RDM is B+ vs. B, in reality the spell duties will diminish TP gain rate to make it look like C instead, if not worse.

Oh, and not using offensive spells means no enfeebs. Those of you who really love the concept of mage/DNC may want to level a WHM/DNC instead--that seems like a (slightly) better fit. (Hey, WHM has B+ skill in club!)

[Celeal]

Oh, and not using offensive spells means no enfeebs. Those of you who really love the concept of mage/DNC may want to level a WHM/DNC instead--that seems like a (slightly) better fit. (Hey, WHM has B+ skill in club!)

Or level up DNC as a main job instead..... (' A ')

Added:

It is too bad that Stutter Step:

Dance

* Lower target's magic resistance. If successful, you will earn a finishing move.
* Obtained: Dancer Level 40
* TP Required: 10%
* Recast Time: 00:15


Is at DNC Level 40. Or else RDM/DNC may have a chance~

[Aliekber]

Oh, and I did read through that thread on Alla.. it was funny. Your arguements are funny. ^^ But, since you're promoting Rdm/Dnc... along with Glued, check out his melee gear he's vouching for Rdm melee with. I'll give you another hint, it's not heavy on the acc side.

I've given Glued's stuff a cursory glance, but not much of a thorough look. The main reason I even bothered posting at all was to correct Sabaron's claim that RDM/DNC is worthless in 95% of parties. So I wouldn't say I'm doing anything along with Glued, I'm just advocating RDM/DNC.

And Starfox's arguements explaining why feeding the mob tp are so very valid too.

I'm assuming that you meant "why feeding the mob tp is bad"? Sorry, I can only do so much with sentence fragments. Unless you're going to suggest that feeding a mob tp "are so very valid too." FYI, being condescending goes two ways, cupcake.

In response to your, ahem, "statement", if you would invite a DNC main, you shouldn't have any issue inviting a RDM/DNC geared the same, as they will feed about the same amount of TP, and the RDM/DNC has more versatility than the DNC, and, factually, more curing power than a RDM/WHM. It may be that RDM/DNC will find its place in 3-4 member parties where they will melee, which SE has repeatedly stated was the intended place for DNC, I don't know, but to say that RDM/DNC is the new lolCombination is quite premature at this point.

Ironically, you've not grasped why people say no to Rdm/Dnc. How about this.. you feed the mob TP, which makes the mob do more WS's, more pecking flurries, more snatch morsels and more feather tickles. Which in turn hurts your party's output also... or doesn't it in your world? Because you won't be hitting hard enough to make a dent in it's HP without a decent set of gear... and with your half arsed gear, you''re *just* breaking 75% acc, but hitting weakly. Not that any of the melee Rdm fans would realise the importance of that though. So, your cures are weaker, as are your hits, and.. you don't get to WS, and if you ever have to sleep a link, well - your TP is gone then too.

I understand perfectly well why people say that, I just want it tested, and also acknowledged that it can work if it does (I think it will). You still don't know if the extra curing power will balance out with the extra WSes. And if you really need a staff to land Sleep on Colibri links, then do what you have to do.

Shit, Rdm/Dnc must be the new win sj of choice. Bad DoT, inefficient cures hp/mp or tp ratio, feeding mobs more TP than the dedicated DD do,

I call BS on that. No way a RDM is going to feed more TP than the other jobs, the Haste cycle alone assures that.

so making more WS's on the melee, and generally reminding me why I kick pickup Rdm's who melee.

Again, if the extra curing power is greater than the increased damage, then it's worth it.

And as for the Rdm's who want mage gear? I'd pick *any* one of them to support a meripo over some pickup Rdm/Dnc because, they appreciate what extra healing drain bad DD is on a tank or DD.

How shocking, you'd invite LS members you know over someone you didn't.

So even with your extra cures you can make, guess what - you're the reason they need them. Unless you're getting say Monk's Roll from a Corsair.. and whatever other joke setup you wish to provide.

And if the curing power provided by /DNC is greater and faster than the additional damage the extra TP causes, then why does it matter as long as it doesn't slow down the party?

Oh, and another thing, since you're only gearing for Acc, do you have any idea of the actual damage per hit you'll do? Please provide a genuine attack figure, as I can see you nicely hitting for crap damage without enough attack.. oh, wait.. no, you somehow magically get a full attack set too, and still have space for full Rdm gear and.. so on. ;)

I'm not gearing for anything, my /DNC isn't leveled up yet. I'll let you know when I do try it out in a party. Also, as long as the curing power overcomes the extra damage done, then whatever damage I do, even if I'm only geared for +ACC with no +ATK is greater than the 0 damage I'd do just standing back doing nothing. Also, Box step stacks with Dia II/III, turning a Dia II into a Dia III, and a Dia III into a Dia III+, so even if I can only get one in per mob, that's a 5% damage increase for everyone else (i.e. 1/3 of a Haste spell), resulting in faster kills.

Take care sunshine, I'd much rather have a Rdm/standard sj who I could take to Mamool, Kindred, Colibri, etc.. than a Rdm/Dnc who can only take Colibri, which only supports two decent parties... and right now, you're looking to be validating why that merit party sporting three DD three Support jobs have just pushed you out, because you're having downtime from making too many TP moves that you could have not had otherwise, or a sub par DD that you could have otherwise put a Bard in or Cor or genuine DD and the Rdm taken the support role which they excel at.

First of all RDM/DNC is support. Not DD. Melee != DD. You have to have understood this to understand DNC mains, so I think it should be perfectly clear already.

Secondly, it's not as if I can't switch to another sub depending on the camp I go to. /DNC isn't for everything, I said as much in my first post here, when I said that /DNC is superior in cases where many status cures are not needed, thus implying that /WHM is superior in cases that do need lots of status cures.

Yes, it has one real use - which is Colibri, and to be honest - I'd rather have a stable choice of support Rdm/Whm/Sch/Blm, who can make my party excel, so we can do interesting stuff than a sub par one who wants to hit things because he thinks he should be frontline. Oh yeah, it's your $12.95 a month or whatever... I'ma go bed now.

Thank you for finally admitting it. Your invite choices are your own, it's your $12.95/mo so clearly I'm not going to dictate who you can and can't invite.

But I find it interesting that you'd rather have a RDM/Mage, none of whom's debuffs can land without a risk of reflecting, when you could have a RDM/DNC, whose -Def debuff can be cast simultaneously with Dia--or instead of it, if you're that worried about Reflections--and will never be Reflected because it isn't magic. Even at a 75% proc rate (it's based on main-hand accuracy), Box Step is worth it.

Like I think happened with Starfox over on Allah, he had enough of trying to explain why not. I've just realised I repeated almost exactly the same principles as he did, and if a Rdm who seems to be well versed in melee, and a melee who knows how mobs work saying, you're slowing down a party aren't enough... then, nothing ever will.

Please. Starfox is so obsessed with RDM/NIN that you'd be hard pressed to get him to consider anything but it. This is a guy who claims he can out-DD the likes of Black Belt MNKs and Ridill WARs, and then conveniently never posts parses "because that's not the kind of guy he is." Trust me, Starfox is the last person you want to be allying yourself with if you want to maintain credibility.

[BurningPanther]

Are the people who argue TP feeding aware that DNC only has(at 75), 6 more skill in Dagger, and 40 less in Sword(and Hand-to-Hand)? While Acc Traits account for the lack of skill, there's nothing inherently improving their damage output. Isn't any action by DNC TP-feeding as well?

I suppose they're excused by melee being a necessity in their job performance, but then, if mob TP was really the issue, you just wouldn't invite anything lacking in the accepted levels of damage.




On an unrelated note, is there anyone here who has actually tried RDM/DNC in group play? I think it's important to hear from them.

[Sabaron]

Ok... I'm going to copy the thing in Allah that I'm assuming you're calling your "proof" just so everyone can see it. This is not a proof and it doesn't address many of the concerns that have been brought up.

1. The RDM/DNC idea breaks down anytime you are exposed to AoE status magic and high-damage AoE magic and attacks from mobs like wyvern, puk, most beastmen, dhalmel, kindred, skeletons, ghosts, imps, tainted, spiders, diremites, tigers, flies, marids, cockatices, and probably quite a few I'm forgetting, but that leaves you with the same weird-ass mob that allows for basically any sub-job combination for backliners... The inimitable Colibri. The introduction of another mp sink that is not dealing a requisite amount of damage in comparison to the amount of damage it will take causes a decrease in your efficiency. Your "proof" doesn't account for this.

2. The RDM/DNC in the example below isn't using any of the following spells: Regen, Haste, Paralyze, Slow, Dia, Blind, or Silence--spells that Red Mages use very frequently (especially the first two). Of course, you can't enfeeble Colibri, and that really looks like the only camp you're going to if you're RDM/DNC. Why don't we add a 3-man Haste cycle to the mix because if you're not Hasting, you're decreasing the efficiency of your DD group.

3. The OP is comparing a RDM/WHM to a RDM/DNC. The front line RDM Healer I advocate and have used with great success is RDM/BLU (Burgundy Mage if you like). Wild Carrot is comparable to Cure III and is more MP efficient and the cap is much much softer. Assuming that you're "light on +MND" and can't really push your Wild Carrot past Cure III (you don't really need a lot of +MND to beat a Cure III with a Carrot): Cure III: 190/46 = 4.13 hp/mp, Carrot: 190/37 = 5.13 hp/mp, 5.13/4.13 = 1.24 or 24% more efficient minimum. Therefore, if RDM/DNC's output is "equivalent" to RDM/WHM then RDM/BLU is better than RDM/DNC, no? Remember, also, that RDM/BLU is more versatile than RDM/DNC. A RDM/BLU can backline without losing his ability to cure which means that RDM/BLU can rest and swap gear without compromising his support role. This notwithstanding the fact that RDM/BLU can WS and use Vorpal Blade if he swaps in his melee gears when up front. A RDM/DNC cannot disengage from melee without losing efficiency. I don't think RDM/DNC can beat RDM/BLU even in a Colibri party which is the only XP party your combo seems fit for. Remember, that since RDM/BLU can backline, you can use it in non-status camps to improve cure efficiency. The only true drawback (in non-status camps) is the self-target onry-ness of Healing Breeze and it's long casting time.

4. You're requiring me to present "proof" when you yourself have not. You have no concrete evidence that what you're proposing is in fact true. The mathematics in your "proof" are rather slapdash and do not, in any way, constitute proof. Therefore, why should I be held to a higher standard than you, yourself?

5. I'd much rather have a PUP/DNC main healer than a RDM/DNC main healer.

6. I might continue later, but I want to watch my movie...

You want to go down that path? Let's shall.

I did make one error above, a fencepost error. The actual number of Cure3 in 1hr should be:
(900+(900+800-160)*6)/46=220.43

Because you start with 900MP, and gain 800-160MP every 10min for 60 min (x6), plus convert 6 times for additional 900MP each, I forgot to add the initial 900. So 220 cure3 is the maximum a RDM/WHM with 900MP post-convert can accomplish in an hour if the only thing he's doing is casting Cure3 and self- Refresh+Sanction only.

The maximum amount of Cure3 that can be casted by a RDM/DNC is:
(500+(500+800-160)*6)/46=159.56

Because you are meleeing as a /dnc, your usable MP is somewhere around 500MP if you're wearing melee equipment. I'll also be nice and leave the post-convert Cure4s out of it (since I also didn't calculate it for rdm/whm), so he can do 159 Cure3, which is currently a deficit of around 61 Cure3's.

Cure3 takes 2.5sec with nonFC, Refresh takes 5sec with nonFC. With the additional 2sec or so delay after casting a spell but before you swing again (ability delay), I'll calculate Cure3's "cost" as 4sec, Refresh's as 6sec. We also need to factor in the time it takes to convert+self cure. I've found it usually takes me 20sec or so to disengage from mob, move away a bit, convert, Cure4 twice (minimum), then run back to the mob and engage. The only unknown is how many Waltz you can do, and turns out it's about 100.

24*6=144 sec for casting Refresh
159*4=636 sec for casting Cure3
20*6=120 sec for Convert+Self Cure
100*2=200 sec for using Waltz

(3600-144-636-120-200)*4.7*.75/2.5/35=100.71

So the RDM/DNC can do 159 Cure3+100 Curing Waltz 2 assuming that he's pretty much engaged all the time except for when he needs to convert, does so 6 times, and self Refresh+Sanction like above. Assuming that both does about the same, it becomes around 259 Cure3 worth.

HOWEVER, a RDM/WHM can use Light/Apollo for 10% more effective cure. So his is effectively curing for 220*1.1=242 Cure3 worth. Again, both are curing until they are out of MP, and doing everything else minimally. Even then, a RDM/DNC comes out ahead by only 17 Cure3 or so.

If a BRD or a COR is in the party and singing Ballad or rolling Evoker's, assuming the average is 3/tick, brings an additional 3600MP worth to be used for Cure3.

3600/46=78.26 Cure3

So even with 1 more additional MP's worth of refresh is more than enough to close the less-than-10% difference between total curing. Dalmatica, Vermy, Morrigan, or Chapeau. Not only that, even in the unlikely scenario that the RDM/DNC got more refresh ticks, by casting that 78 cures, his ability to waltz goes down.

(2500-4*78)*4.7*.75/2.5/35=88.14

Having to recast 78 more Cure3 just lost his ability to do 11 or so Waltz, because he couldn't gain TP. So by the time you're comparing a RDM/WHM with Dual Ballad vs. RDM/DNC with Dual Ballad, they're curing for the same exact amount.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Are the people who argue TP feeding aware that DNC only has(at 75), 6 more skill in Dagger, and 40 less in Sword(and Hand-to-Hand)? While Acc Traits account for the lack of skill, there's nothing inherently improving their damage output. Isn't any action by DNC TP-feeding as well?

Dancer has, oh, three Subtle Blow traits going for it and has access only to lower-end daggers compared to THF, if I want be concerned about anyone feeding a mob TP, they're pretty low on the list.

On an unrelated note, is there anyone here who has actually tried RDM/DNC in group play? I think it's important to hear from them.

This is only a weak attempt to discredit those who have presented valid arguments and it didn't work the first time the challenge was issued. We've levelled DNC and most here on the subject have also levelled RDM a fair degree. If you honestly think /DNC would be a practical party sub, then you don't understand RDM's party role at all.

Back when I played this job there was not a second to rest, hardly a moment to sit down for MP and these days there is even less time, but RDMs are often treated to a BRD or COR or both at their side.

So again, what are we TPing for, that is, beyond the lameshit excuse to melee? You shouldn't be running out of MP with two/three layers of refresh, convert and sanction. If you are, hang the pimp hat up.

[Aliekber]

Ok... I'm going to copy the thing in Allah that I'm assuming you're calling your "proof" just so everyone can see it. This is not a proof and it doesn't address many of the concerns that have been brought up.

1. The RDM/DNC idea breaks down anytime you are exposed to AoE status magic and high-damage AoE magic and attacks from mobs like wyvern, puk, most beastmen, dhalmel, kindred, skeletons, ghosts, imps, tainted, spiders, diremites, tigers, flies, marids, cockatices, and probably quite a few I'm forgetting, but that leaves you with the same weird-ass mob that allows for basically any sub-job combination for backliners... The inimitable Colibri. The introduction of another mp sink that is not dealing a requisite amount of damage in comparison to the amount of damage it will take causes a decrease in your efficiency. Your "proof" doesn't account for this.

True, it's not in Starfox's proof, but it's stated earlier on in the thread, and has been taken as an assumption by that point. You're correct that AoE debuffs negate /DNC's usefulness, I've never tried to argue against /WHM being the superior option there. RDM/DNC's melee damage is described as negligible in comparison to the damage of the DD's, and for good reason. Your Cures could get you hate, there's no way your melee damage will, so this isn't really an issue.

2. The RDM/DNC in the example below isn't using any of the following spells: Regen, Haste, Paralyze, Slow, Dia, Blind, or Silence--spells that Red Mages use very frequently (especially the first two). Of course, you can't enfeeble Colibri, and that really looks like the only camp you're going to if you're RDM/DNC.

Yes. However, RDM/DNC can enfeeble Colibri, with Quickstep[-Eva] (if you want to bother) and Box Step[-Def] (I probably would bother).

3. The OP is comparing a RDM/WHM to a RDM/DNC. The front line RDM Healer I advocate and have used with great success is RDM/BLU (Burgundy Mage if you like). Wild Carrot is comparable to Cure III and is more MP efficient and the cap is much much softer. Assuming that you're "light on +MND" and can't really push your Wild Carrot past Cure III (you don't really need a lot of +MND to beat a Cure III with a Carrot): Cure III: 190/46 = 4.13 hp/mp, Carrot: 190/37 = 5.13 hp/mp, 5.13/4.13 = 1.24 or 24% more efficient minimum. Therefore, if RDM/DNC's output is "equivalent" to RDM/WHM then RDM/BLU is better than RDM/DNC, no? Remember, also, that RDM/BLU is more versatile than RDM/DNC. A RDM/BLU can backline without losing his ability to cure which means that RDM/BLU can rest and swap gear without compromising his support role. This notwithstanding the fact that RDM/BLU can WS and use Vorpal Blade if he swaps in his melee gears when up front. A RDM/DNC cannot disengage from melee without losing efficiency. I don't think RDM/DNC can beat RDM/BLU even in a Colibri party which is the only XP party your combo seems fit for. Remember, that since RDM/BLU can backline, you can use it in non-status camps to improve cure efficiency. The only true drawback (in non-status camps) is the self-target onry-ness of Healing Breeze and it's long casting time.

You're preaching to the choir on this one, I have also used RDM/BLU to great success in frontline, backline, duo, and solo, due to the softer cap on Blue Magic's curing spells. I hadn't thought to compare /DNC to /BLU, considering /WHM to be the sub to beat, however I can see that the argument of /BLU vs. /DNC does have merit on non-status-effect mobs. However, /BLU doesn't provide status cures at all, while /DNC does at 70+, so for those five levels you can fight mobs that do light status effects as /DNC, as you can Healing Waltz every 15 seconds as TP allows.

I'll have to give this more thought before I can give any semblance of a definitive response, though.

4. You're requiring me to present "proof" when you yourself have not. You have no concrete evidence that what you're proposing is in fact true. The mathematics in your "proof" are rather slapdash and do not, in any way, constitute proof. Therefore, why should I be held to a higher standard than you, yourself?

What would you like? I'll provide a parse as soon as I do this myself, if you'd like. At the moment, conjecture is all I have aside from the math, and I don't see any real issues with Starfox's math, which I have thus far deemed sufficient to convince me.

As far as burst curebombing being superior on RDM/DNC compared to RDM/WHM, I would think the simple fact that RDM/DNC has two separate 'Cure III'-ish recast timers, and can cast Curing Waltz II and Cure III at the exact same time, allowing it to curebomb twice as fast would make it obvious. I suppose I can provide a parse of this, if you really insist, but I think it's plain to see.

Regarding curing over time, as I said, I don't see any problems with Starfox's math. If anything, he gave the advantage to /WHM by not including Sambas, and not including the time saved by Dancecasting.

Finally, about the burden of proof, you made a claim, and offered, to my knowledge, no evidence for it. I made a counter-claim, and provided what I consider to be sufficient evidence to my point. You're questioning my math; I'll try to clarify anything necessary. As far as I'm concerned, that's how things are supposed to work. You either accept my claim, question my evidence, or provide counter-evidence. You chose to question my evidence, which is fine. Unless you're saying I had no right to contradict you in the first place, we'll come to the truth eventually (although I would argue that we are already there). I have nothing personal against you, I just disagreed with the statement you made, and you're more than free to ask me to provide evidence for any claim I make which I don't provide evidence for (although I do try to always do so, I'm only human after all and can make mistakes); I will do my best to oblige you. I wouldn't want to become a hypocrite.

5. I'd much rather have a PUP/DNC main healer than a RDM/DNC main healer.

I can't argue with opinion, although I'm nor sure why you would prefer this, considering the benefits of RDM main.

6. I might continue later, but I want to watch my movie...

Fair enough, I will be awaiting any additional queries you have, though I might not get to them tonight.

[Sabaron]

I see you took a lick of point #5. That's my favorite one partly because it has no supporting documentation in the initial post. Why do I like PUP/DNC better than RDM/DNC?

1. PUP is always front-line. It can be nothing else.
2. The Soulsoother has Status Cures.
3. The PUP/DNC has a better TP gain rate and while RDM/DNC may be able to cast Cure III / Healing Waltz II in rapid succession, the maton can actually cast simultaneously.
4. The maton doesn't mistarget...ever.
5. The maton has a virtually limitless supply of MP.
6. The maton can only cast on a relatively long 23 second timer, but the PUP/DNC can back it up with a cure every 15 seconds. (It is currently not listed what effects various Ice attachments have on the recast timer--I'm quite interested in the combination of the Optic Fiber and the Mana Booster as a combination since Optic Fiber is a Light attachment and can be used to increase the power of the Mana Booster with a hypothetical maneuver group of Light Light Ice or Light Ice Ice.
7. PUP is never short of TP and has no need to swap weapons.
8. Cure IV by 50th level.

Sure, there are a few holes in PUP/DNC, but as far as a front-line healer, I would much rather have one of these than a RDM/DNC.

Unlike some of the other people who always mention the "feeding the mob TP" thing, I don't go that far. As far as I've seen in a Greater Colibri Party (with my Accuracy gear on RDM/BLU), a RDM's damage per hit output is generally similar to a PLD or BLU with misses accounting for the bulk of the damage loss. Missing doesn't give mobs TP, but it does hurt your TP gain rate.

[Richie]

Would everyone that hasn't done rdm/dnc is a merit pt please shut up? I'm so sick of explaining it I'm not even going to bother. It works, 20k+ colibri, 15k troll, 20k+ mamool. Stop the speculation and just take the word of the people that are actually out there and doing it. Level it, gear it and try it or stfu.

[arkaine23]

I get close to 90% accuracy on G. Colibri. They eat my sushi now and then, but that's because I'm doing solid damage as RDM/NIN with haste/acc build and Blau/Joy. A RDM/DNC is not going to do nearly as much damage as a RDM/NIN but will probably still be high on enmity from Waltzes. It should not be the main-healer IMO. Spam Bream Sushi. Its cheap. RDM is not going to be the mob's target most of the time anyway.

TP gain is fine. I WS fast enough as RDM/NIN even doing 5 hastes and 2 refreshes and Dia III's. For /DNC its more ideal to have less of a casting load of course, but you can cast immediately after starting a Dance. Your melee gets paused for dancing, so its the ideal time to squeeze in spells.

[IfritnoItazura]

Would everyone that hasn't done rdm/dnc is a merit pt please shut up? I'm so sick of explaining it I'm not even going to bother. It works, 20k+ colibri, 15k troll, 20k+ mamool. Stop the speculation and just take the word of the people that are actually out there and doing it. Level it, gear it and try it or stfu.
As far as I can tell, you made three posts in the last two weeks, and this is the first one RDM/DNC. Isn't it a bit early to be complaining about having to explain it multiple times when you haven't even done it once?

Anyway, I take it you've used RDM/DNC? Why don't you address some specific shortcomings raised and give us better understanding of how to use RDM/DNC, instead of just telling people to "stfu"?

On weapon switch and TP loss:
- Silence won't land well on Imps and Mamool Ja mages without Wind Staff, and it's important to land that.
- Trolls often require RDM to help nuke down Diamondhide to keep chain. Do you just cast without staves? (IMO, that would waste MP and possibly risk losing chain.)
- Troll RDM and PLD need to be silenced. Can you land silence without Wind Staff?

Other concerns I have:
- Mamool Ja NIN is hard to control without Sleepga/Stonea/Banishga to get rid of its Utusemi's copy images. How do you deal with that on /DNC when puller brings back links?
- How do you deal with AoE damage or status effects when out of TP?
- Timer on Divine Waltz is 10 seconds, and cost is 40TP. How do you make sure you always have enough TP and can use it fast enough?
- Which party setups in which camps enabled you to get the kind of exp rate you've tossed out?

* * *

[A RDM/DNC] should not be the main-healer IMO.
Maybe this is the key? If there's another mage on main healer duty, RDM/DNC won't exactly cripple of the party. Then again, a RDM/anything won't likely cripple a party in that case, except maybe on Imps. (I average getting silenced 2-3 times per Imp party per hour. No, I'm not interested in carrying 6 stacks of Echo Drops and melee up front--I'll warp out when I run through two stacks, thank-you-very-much.)

Nice thing about RDM + WHM in party is that the mages can alternate resting time and cover each other on cures, allowing for much smoother recovery when things go wrong, often without breaking chain. No one ever complains about getting Raise III instead of my weak R1, either.

Anyway, I don't think anyone here believes RDM/DNC is worthless--just /DNC is worth less in most situations than some other support jobs.

[Celeal]

Would everyone that hasn't done rdm/dnc is a merit pt please shut up? I'm so sick of explaining it I'm not even going to bother. It works, 20k+ colibri, 15k troll, 20k+ mamool. Stop the speculation and just take the word of the people that are actually out there and doing it. Level it, gear it and try it or stfu.

I would assume that you already have merit points before you try RDM/DNC, and you only tried RDM/DNC in merit parties?

I am not trying to say you experience is invalid, but it may not apply to parties below level 70+.

P.S. : Please include more detail from your RDM/DNC in merit parties, more information is always helpful.

[Sabaron]

Would everyone that hasn't done rdm/dnc is a merit pt please shut up? I'm so sick of explaining it I'm not even going to bother. It works, 20k+ colibri, 15k troll, 20k+ mamool. Stop the speculation and just take the word of the people that are actually out there and doing it. Level it, gear it and try it or stfu.

Yawn... post parses with your party setup or stop being a troll... You certainly haven't "explained" anything here at DiV--perhaps you would be so gracious as to provide us with a link or copy of your previous post extolling the virtues of RDM/DNC with such blinding proof that our eyes will burn right out of our sockets, hmm? There better not be another main healer in the pt either b/c that's precisely the point of the thread (now)--to replace a RDM/WHM main with just a RDM/DNC--to have you in a DD slot could mean that instead of "20k+ colibri" I could have "25k+ colibri". How does not having experience with RDM/DNC invalidate hypothesis? I could just as easily say "Would everyone that has a bias in favor of RDM/DNC please shut up?" You are biased in favor of RDM/DNC by virtue of levelling DNC just for the combination. You want it to work, so even if another combination would be better, you might be oblivious to it's superiority by virtue of the fact that you haven't actually compared the two.

The whole point is to compare two items not just say "RDM/DNC is good b/c I was in a pt that got good XP". If you did RDM/DNC in a troll pt and got 15kph, how much could a RDM/WHM or RDM/BLU have gotten in the same time frame? You have also ignored the fact that it is being recommended that RDM/DNC be used at 60+ not just in meripo camps. You have also neglected to inform us of any setup, gearing, or any other circumstances present in your XP parties that might be above normal (e.g. Joyeuse, Blau, Mandau, Dusk armor, merits, etc.).

As far as meripo is concerned, it's also a very specialized case. In many meripos the subjob choice for everyone isn't going to significantly impact the chain level--this subjob freedom is reflected in the ability to have everyone sub /NIN just for shadows (which is done is some meripos). Therefore, in a meripo, your sub job has virtually no impact on the chain level anyway, so you could just as well sub PUP and not significantly impact the chain level. In fact, in a Colibri party, a RDM/WHM can confidently melee and not impact the chain level, but if you try that at the Skoffin camp, you're not going to like it. The question is... is RDM/DNC in general more or less effective than alternative subs such as the backline RDM/WHM and the frontline support RDM/BLU? Under what conditions can your RDM/DNC outperform a RDM/WHM? RDM/BLU? RDM/NIN? Are there any?

The placebo test is this: Use the quick-switch trick to remove your subjob and party as RDM75/Nothing. I bet you'll find that you can still get similar XP rates in all of the areas you just mentioned. If you get 20kph while meleeing Colibri with RDM75/Nothing does that mean that RDM75/Nothing is better than RDM/WHM? Your XP/hr rate in a meripo has very little to do with one member's subjob choice. Hell, people even bring funky weapons to them--PLD/NIN with a Greatsword for instance is perfectly viable in a coli camp... Meripo is certainly a very specialized testing environment.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Third Time since its the key question our pro-/DNC RDMs seem to like avoiding:

If you're not running out of MP, why do you need TP for Cures?

Just answer the damn question.

But then, maybe you just don't like the answer.

Its already been well-estabilished that for TP burn and colibri parties that enfeebling is not that important for these mobs because they die too fast. No point in burning MP for that or TP for that matter. DNC would enfeeble only as a means of building Finishing moves. Things like Reverse Flourish, Animated Flourish and Wild Flourish could still be useful for them, plus they must TP to cure at all.

RDM - especially with BRD or COR in tow - will not have many MP issues and if a DNC was present, they'll have even more of it. So what does RDM/DNC bring to the party aside from a lame excuse to pull out your sword?

I can tell you right that as COR, if my PT has four DDs, I'm dropping from melee to pull most likely. This means as good as my damage is on COR (and trust me, no RDM can compete with a COR/RNG's melee DoT), I can also go without doing it to play another role for the party. Most often, this can be pulling.

And I can tell you right now I'd make damn better use of /DNC and when the sub is done I'll be happy to put my money where my mouth is and put it to the test in PT. I'll tell you right now I know that its better that going COR/WHM or RDM/DNC.

RDM casts 90% of the time, you don't have time to TP. TPing is all a PUP does and CORs don't have much else to do between buffs if they're not already pulling. Most other jobs are going to want to funnel thier TP into damage, but my job can make the sacrifice and I promise you my job can handily outdamage yours in melee.

So if I can omit my damage and the party can keep the chains, so can you. /DNC is rendered useless by RDM's constant casting. You won't have time to get the TP for cures because you already cure rather effectively and shouldn't get low on MP at all.

[Aliekber]

Third Time since its the key question our pro-/DNC RDMs seem to like avoiding:

If you're not running out of MP, why do you need TP for Cures?

I'll throw out an idea on this one. If your TP cures can keep everyone healed up, and you have so much MP to spare you don't know what to do with it, then you could always nuke to speed up kills.

Obviously, this isn't an option on Colibri, but if Richie's parses can back up his claim that RDM/DNC works on Trolls and Mamool, then perhaps by doing this with his extra MP (assuming he's one of the RDM/DNC who have tested it and said they never needed to Convert), it could increase his xp/hour.

As for myself, the reason I'm interested in RDM/DNC is because I think it has potential and would like to see it pushed to its limits and tested thoroughly before people dismiss it out-of-hand. After all, if nobody were willing to experiment, we'd still be fighting IT++ for 6k an hour, and getting excited about hitting Chain 5.

[Aliekber]

Just had an idea while out for lunch. Theoretical party setup for RDM/DNC in camps other than Colibri.

WHM/NIN - Main Healer (Bear with me, I'll explain)
RDM/DNC - Puller
DD
DD
DD
DD

So here's how I would envision this working:

RDM + WHM start by Refresh/Hasting the party fully, as quickly as possible, then RDM leaves to pull.

RDM arrives with the mob, DDs take hate, RDM engages for 2 hits for 10% TP (1 if Joyeuse double-hit procs, or if Aspir Samba is already up), and inflicts Aspir Samba on the mob while Hasting or Refreshing 1 party member. If mob is Mage-type, Wind Staff::Silence. Run off and pull again.

The WHM/NIN makes sure to keep shadows up while meleeing with DW clubs (KClub may be overdoing it, but I'm sure people will want to try it) for MP, and main heals the party, tossing out Hexa-Strikes as needed. The reason I say WHM/NIN are: 1) Shadows 2) DW for Aspir Samba 3) Status effect cures.

Aside: For those of you who are unfamiliar with how Aspir Samba is calculated, it is based on delay (mainly), and oddly enough, it counts the increased delay from dual wielding on both weapons, it doesn't divide the delay for both. The upshot of all this is that while a single wielded Sword/Club + Aspir Samba ~= MP recovery rate of Mage's Ballad II, DW Swords/Clubs both increases the amount of MP recovered per hit, while increasing the number of hits as well, and gives MP back something closer to the rate of Refresh + Mage's Ballad II. This means that if you Refresh the White Mage every fifth pull, and always inflict Aspir Samba before pulling the next mob, your WHM will consistently be under an MP refresh rate comparable to Refreshx2 + Mage's Ballad II, a whopping ~8MP/tick (depending on WHM hit rate). 9, if they're using a Noble's Tunic, Vermillion Cloak, etc. At Colibri camp, you could probably even get away with a PLD/NIN main healing the party while doing some damage (although you will have to give up some Hastes a WHM could have cast).

In this situation, RDM gears all-out for +ACC, with enough +STR/+ATK to make sure he consistently hits for at least 1, in order to gain TP. His TP contribution to the mob is negligible, as he only hits the mob twice, at most, so damage should not be a concern as long as enough is done to gain TP.

Why is this worth considering? It should allow a reasonably fast-paced burn for a RDM with /DNC leveled whenever he wants, whether or not a BRD or COR is available, as WHM75 are plentiful, and there are always DD available.

Thoughts?

[Ellipses]

RDM arrives with the mob, DDs take hate, RDM engages for 2 hits for 10% TP (1 if Joyeuse double-hit procs, or if Aspir Samba is already up), and inflicts Aspir Samba on the mob while Hasting or Refreshing 1 party member. If mob is Mage-type, Wind Staff::Silence. Run off and pull again.
At which point Aspir Samba becomes useless because the RDM is no longer hitting the mob to inflict Aspir Daze.

[Aliekber]

At which point Aspir Samba becomes useless because the RDM is no longer hitting the mob to inflict Aspir Daze.

I'm pretty sure that as long as everyone keeps hitting it, it will continue to maintain whatever daze is already on the mob. Has anyone tested this? I duoed with a PLD/NIN and I'm pretty sure that her hits were maintaining the daze while I took breaks to cast.

[Celeal]

Just had an idea while out for lunch. Theoretical party setup for RDM/DNC in camps other than Colibri.

WHM/NIN - Main Healer (Bear with me, I'll explain)
RDM/DNC - Puller
DD
DD
DD
DD

So here's how I would envision this working:

RDM + WHM start by Refresh/Hasting the party fully, as quickly as possible, then RDM leaves to pull.

RDM arrives with the mob, DDs take hate, RDM engages for 2 hits for 10% TP (1 if Joyeuse double-hit procs, or if Aspir Samba is already up), and inflicts Aspir Samba on the mob while Hasting or Refreshing 1 party member. If mob is Mage-type, Wind Staff::Silence. Run off and pull again.

The WHM/NIN makes sure to keep shadows up while meleeing with DW clubs (KClub may be overdoing it, but I'm sure people will want to try it) for MP, and main heals the party, tossing out Hexa-Strikes as needed. The reason I say WHM/NIN are: 1) Shadows 2) DW for Aspir Samba 3) Status effect cures.

Aside: For those of you who are unfamiliar with how Aspir Samba is calculated, it is based on delay (mainly), and oddly enough, it counts the increased delay from dual wielding on both weapons, it doesn't divide the delay for both. The upshot of all this is that while a single wielded Sword/Club + Aspir Samba ~= MP recovery rate of Mage's Ballad II, DW Swords/Clubs both increases the amount of MP recovered per hit, while increasing the number of hits as well, and gives MP back something closer to the rate of Refresh + Mage's Ballad II. This means that if you Refresh the White Mage every fifth pull, and always inflict Aspir Samba before pulling the next mob, your WHM will consistently be under an MP refresh rate comparable to Refreshx2 + Mage's Ballad II, a whopping ~8MP/tick (depending on WHM hit rate). 9, if they're using a Noble's Tunic, Vermillion Cloak, etc. At Colibri camp, you could probably even get away with a PLD/NIN main healing the party while doing some damage (although you will have to give up some Hastes a WHM could have cast).

In this situation, RDM gears all-out for +ACC, with enough +STR/+ATK to make sure he consistently hits for at least 1, in order to gain TP. His TP contribution to the mob is negligible, as he only hits the mob twice, at most, so damage should not be a concern as long as enough is done to gain TP.

Why is this worth considering? It should allow a reasonably fast-paced burn for a RDM with /DNC leveled whenever he wants, whether or not a BRD or COR is available, as WHM75 are plentiful, and there are always DD available.

Thoughts?

I think it will "work." At least it is safe.

In the setup WHM/NIN, RDM/DNC, DD x 4, instead of using WHM, i would:

BLU/WHM, RDM/DNC, DD x 4

or

BLU/WHM, RDM/DNC, DD x 3, DNC

I think the work load is more balance, or well-rounded in that way.

[Sabaron]

I'm pretty sure that as long as everyone keeps hitting it, it will continue to maintain whatever daze is already on the mob. Has anyone tested this? I duoed with a PLD/NIN and I'm pretty sure that her hits were maintaining the daze while I took breaks to cast.

AFAIK, Samba is a fixed duration of 2 minutes after the Dancer hits it the first time--it operates like an "Additional Effect" debuff with one use.

As for the WHM/NIN RDM/DNC setup--you say this is for non-Colibri parties with MP mobs. What kind of mob? I certainly don't want my party's only source of healing standing next to a BLM mob while it casts Sleepga II. What are the proposed camp/mob targets for this setup? I don't doubt that Aspir Samba can provide a significant amount of MP refresh, but it's the danger to the mage group that generally puts them in the back line in the first place. I would say that I'd not want my WHM in range of blasts from Troll Rangers, Imps, ESPECIALLY Skoffins, or even Puks (Wind shear interruption of Cure V could be fatal).

[Richie]

On weapon switch and TP loss:
- Silence won't land well on Imps and Mamool Ja mages without Wind Staff, and it's important to land that.

Yes it does? I land it regularly without swapping. Imps? You would have to be retarded to go /dnc on imps.

- Trolls often require RDM to help nuke down Diamondhide to keep chain. Do you just cast without staves? (IMO, that would waste MP and possibly risk losing chain.)
- Troll RDM and PLD need to be silenced. Can you land silence without Wind Staff?If your pt is built correctly for a roaming troll PT (rdm brd 4 DD) the diamond hide is off before you can finish casting Dia. I don't Bother silencing the pld and rdm, the shell they spam isn't doing us any harm. The only thing stopping trolls from being faster XP is the distance between them. I don't think any other sub could get the numbers we did on trolls because it would require resting and ballad which would slow down the brd.

Other concerns I have:
- Mamool Ja NIN is hard to control without Sleepga/Stonea/Banishga to get rid of its Utusemi's copy images. How do you deal with that on /DNC when puller brings back links?
- How do you deal with AoE damage or status effects when out of TP?
- Timer on Divine Waltz is 10 seconds, and cost is 40TP. How do you make sure you always have enough TP and can use it fast enough?The bard handles the pulling, dispels and links. Unless you're dealing with an armature bard they will have no problem with this. With enfeebling merits and decent gear(318 enf 100mnd) you shouldn't have any problems landing silence. The only status effects problems you run into are on skoffin, if you don't have a second bard you shouldn't pull these and if you have to because the camp is crowded (mamool is a last resort camp, why are you going there if it's crowded?)


- Which party setups in which camps enabled you to get the kind of exp rate you've tossed out?Colibri: The best setup is 2brd 3 dd and rdm/dnc for pushing out other pts. If it's empty you only need 1 brd and a cor in the place of the second brd is best.

Troll: You need heavy DD and at least 2 vokers, 2 war 2 mnk brd rdm. The key here is roaming fast and not wasting any time betweek kills, the brd positions the mobs along the roaming path and sleeps adds. When you pull a pld both the brd and rdm dispel to remove protect. Save some TP for Box step on the plds.

Trolls are the most taxing of the 3 camps as they can dish out some big hits that are going to require MP curing.

Mamool: I have done 2 setups that were very different in play style. One was 2 brd one with /whm. We pulled everything and attempted to push out everyone else. It was a friday night and everything was packed. We camped right in the middle and just slept all around with one brd handling all the status cures from the skoffin and the other one mainly pulling. This was very hectic but it worked well. The other was the more standard 1 brd 4 DD and we pulled off to the side. We wouldn't have been able to handle skoffin but we didn't need to because we were the only ones there. The biggest pain in the mamool camp is the puks with flash, this is really the only thing that hurts my TP.

* * *


Maybe this is the key? If there's another mage on main healer duty, RDM/DNC won't exactly cripple of the party. Then again, a RDM/anything won't likely cripple a party in that case, except maybe on Imps. (I average getting silenced 2-3 times per Imp party per hour. No, I'm not interested in carrying 6 stacks of Echo Drops and melee up front--I'll warp out when I run through two stacks, thank-you-very-much.)I don't pt with 2 healer pts, they're just too slow. Again you really shouldn't /dnc on imps. You know where you're going before you leave so just switch to /whm. Anyone that decides what they're going to sub before they know the PT setup and where they're going is just stupid.

Nice thing about RDM + WHM in party is that the mages can alternate resting time and cover each other on cures, allowing for much smoother recovery when things go wrong, often without breaking chain. No one ever complains about getting Raise III instead of my weak R1, either.In a merit pt you should be the only mage with the exception of a bone burn.

Anyway, I don't think anyone here believes RDM/DNC is worthless--just /DNC is worth less in most situations than some other support jobs.Maybe so but the thing is you generally know what your situation is before you leave town. I'm not going to say "oh well I decided I'm subbing dnc this month, guess I'm screwed for sky". Part of being a red mage is knowing what situations you will be placed in and adapting to it. Sure /whm covers a tons of situation decently but if that's the only sub you're willing to use then you're not doing yourself any favors.


Many of the completely false claims in this thread such as "you won't ever get enough tp" and "red mages are too busy casting to swing" were already discredited here: http://killingifrit.com/forums.php?m=posts&q=164154

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

I'll throw out an idea on this one. If your TP cures can keep everyone healed up, and you have so much MP to spare you don't know what to do with it, then you could always nuke to speed up kills

Whooooooooosssh.

RDM shouldn't run out of MP for cures - ever. Again, what is the TP for? You must need a starship.

AFAIK, Samba is a fixed duration of 2 minutes after the Dancer hits it the first time--it operates like an "Additional Effect" debuff with one use.

Samba does not have a fixed duration for anyone but the Dancer, once the dancer is out of contact or missing often, the Samba Daze effect will soon wear off. This is another reason why RDM/DNC is a flawed combo - RDM is so casting-oriented that enough time will pass that they won't contact the mob via melee and the effect wears off for everyone, only to be active again for everyone whenever the DNC or /DNC makes contact again.

A RDM/DNC pulling would render Sambas completely useless. Not to mention they'd have even fewer chances to TP than the zomgmeleetard RDM/DNC would.

Again, its the job mechanics that just aren't compatible. There is no good reason for RDM to hold back on using MP to TP for the sake of Cures and Enfeebling. They do it well enough with the MP they have.

[Aliekber]

AFAIK, Samba is a fixed duration of 2 minutes after the Dancer hits it the first time--it operates like an "Additional Effect" debuff with one use.

As for the WHM/NIN RDM/DNC setup--you say this is for non-Colibri parties with MP mobs. What kind of mob? I certainly don't want my party's only source of healing standing next to a BLM mob while it casts Sleepga II. What are the proposed camp/mob targets for this setup? I don't doubt that Aspir Samba can provide a significant amount of MP refresh, but it's the danger to the mage group that generally puts them in the back line in the first place. I would say that I'd not want my WHM in range of blasts from Troll Rangers, Imps, ESPECIALLY Skoffins, or even Puks (Wind shear interruption of Cure V could be fatal).

I'm thinking Colibri (when I said non-Colibri, I probably should have said not restricted to Colibri (as RDM/DNC main heal seems to be), as there is nothing I can see stopping this setup from working on Colibri), Mamools, and if you're up to it, it would probably work on Trolls too. While the WHM being close to BLM-type mobs makes Sleepga effects a danger, the RDM should be Silencing these mobs before leaving for the next pull, so that combined with Poison Pots (if necessary, if the mob becomes unsilenced before death) should keep the WHM from being slept, as long as kill speed is adequate. There is no reason for the WHM to be meleeing on mobs without MP, except for a little extra damage or to spam Moonlight, so on Troll Rangers (as in your example) the WHM can heal from the back, since Utsu won't protect them from their AoE move, and then move back up for the safer mobs.

I do think using a BLU/WHM makes a lot of sense too, if only for the ability to dispel, and being less likely to eat dirt from AoE, in addition to higher damage than WHM.

[Icemage]

Yes it does? I land it regularly without swapping.
I call BS.

Silence doesn't land worth a hill of beans without staves on Mamool Jas, who are wind-aligned. Even with a Wind Staff, Enfeebling Torque, 8 levels of Enfeebling Magic merits, 3 levels of Wind Magic Accuracy, and +33 MND, I doubt I do better than 66% on Silence against Mamool Ja Blusterers. Maybe 85% on Mamool Ja Philosophers.

Works OK on trolls without staves, however.

If your pt is built correctly for a roaming troll PT (rdm brd 4 DD) the diamond hide is off before you can finish casting Dia. I don't Bother silencing the pld and rdm, the shell they spam isn't doing us any harm. The only thing stopping trolls from being faster XP is the distance between them. I don't think any other sub could get the numbers we did on trolls because it would require resting and ballad which would slow down the brd.
RDM is never limited by MP at troll camps. That camp is purely down to pull speed. You need two pullers plus 3 decent DDs or your chains will break with regularity.

The bard handles the pulling, dispels and links. Unless you're dealing with an armature bard they will have no problem with this. With enfeebling merits and decent gear(318 enf 100mnd) you shouldn't have any problems landing silence. The only status effects problems you run into are on skoffin, if you don't have a second bard you shouldn't pull these and if you have to because the camp is crowded (mamool is a last resort camp, why are you going there if it's crowded?)
Mamool Ja Staging point is the best merit camp in the game, bar none. Easily reachable enemies, lots of them. I'd love to hear what you do about Dread Shriek as RDM/DNC. Can you really afford to wait 15 seconds between removing paralyze effects?

Colibri: The best setup is 2brd 3 dd and rdm/dnc for pushing out other pts. If it's empty you only need 1 brd and a cor in the place of the second brd is best.
Colibri camp is a yawn-fest. 2 pullers of any type and a subless RDM can handle that camp with ease. The problem is usually overcrowding, and the fact that Colibri give relatively low XP (sub-100 sometimes even with chains).

Troll: You need heavy DD and at least 2 vokers, 2 war 2 mnk brd rdm. The key here is roaming fast and not wasting any time betweek kills, the brd positions the mobs along the roaming path and sleeps adds. When you pull a pld both the brd and rdm dispel to remove protect. Save some TP for Box step on the plds.
See my above comment. Two pullers or don't even bother because you'll be hard pressed to break Chain #10 even with a good roaming pattern.

Trolls are the most taxing of the 3 camps as they can dish out some big hits that are going to require MP curing.

Mamool: I have done 2 setups that were very different in play style. One was 2 brd one with /whm. We pulled everything and attempted to push out everyone else. It was a friday night and everything was packed. We camped right in the middle and just slept all around with one brd handling all the status cures from the skoffin and the other one mainly pulling. This was very hectic but it worked well. The other was the more standard 1 brd 4 DD and we pulled off to the side. We wouldn't have been able to handle skoffin but we didn't need to because we were the only ones there. The biggest pain in the mamool camp is the puks with flash, this is really the only thing that hurts my TP.
Puks are weak. Mamool Ja Lurkers and Skoffin are the big dangers here. They have extremely high evasion to start with, and it gets worse if they use Warm Up. They are much more likely to kill your chains than extremely short-lived Flash effects. They also Triple Attack to wipe shadows and sometimes follow up with a TP attack, which can be quite annoying.

EDIT: It occurs to me that you're talking about the south end of the Mamool Ja Staging point area. That camp sucks - it's hard to break 20K/hr there unless you've got really good players. The north side is much better, albeit more challenging - it's possible to peak over 30K/hr there if you're firing on all cylinders.


Icemage

[Aliekber]

Whooooooooosssh.

RDM shouldn't run out of MP for cures - ever. Again, what is the TP for? You must need a starship.

Where did I say that RDM is running out of MP for cures? Point it out to me, will you? What I said is that if your TP is covering your curing needs enough, you don't need to use MP for it, and you can use that MP for something else, like to do more damage, resulting in faster kills.

Samba does not have a fixed duration for anyone but the Dancer, once the dancer is out of contact or missing often, the Samba Daze effect will soon wear off.

If this is the case, then it will certainly be an issue to consider. However, I know for a fact that Sambas last for 10 seconds after the last hit (whether it has to be the DNC or /DNC is the question, if not, there is no issue (I'm pretty sure the PLD/NIN was able to maintain it the whole time I was casting, more than 10 seconds). If so, keep reading), and if it has to be the DNC or /DNC that hits to keep the daze in effect, then the faster your kills/pulls are, the larger percentage of the time the WHM will be under Aspir Samba's effects, up to 1/3 of the time if you're in a high-DD party that can kill the mob in 30 seconds, or 1/6 of the time if it takes them a full minute. Even at 1 kill/minute, your main heal will be under Refresh full-time (3mp/tick) + Aspir Samba 1/6 of the time [(~5mp/tick) * 1/6 = .83 mp/tick], for an MP-recovery rate similar to Refresh + Ballad I. Not great, but not terrible. At 2kills/minute, it is closer to Refresh + Ballad II (3mp/tick + ~1.67mp/tick). With Sanction Refresh + Autorefresh gear + Moonlight as necessary, I think it should be able to last the main heal a while. It's not as good as RDM/WHM + BRD|COR, but as I already stated, you wouldn't use this setup when a BRD or COR is available.

A RDM/DNC pulling would render Sambas completely useless. Not to mention they'd have even fewer chances to TP than the zomgmeleetard RDM/DNC would.

I've already addressed this above.

Again, its the job mechanics that just aren't compatible. There is no good reason for RDM to hold back on using MP to TP for the sake of Cures and Enfeebling. They do it well enough with the MP they have.

That may be, but I think it's still worth experimenting with.

[Richie]

Try reading my post next time. If we're pulling skoffin we have a second bard or I'm subbing whm. Yawn all you want on colibri, 20k an hour is 20k an hour. Last time I did /whm on colibri I literally fell asleep, I never had that problem with /dnc.

Only chain 10? I guess you haven't been in a good roaming pt yet then.

I said flash hurts my TP not my PT.

30k/hour? Fix your parse or ditch the anniversary ring, if you're killing fast enough for 30k there won't be enough mobs around to hold it for more than 30 minutes. Everyone knows that's a BS claim.

Oh and you guys can keep speculating all you like, it's really not worth the effort to convince you all. So go on keep guessing on shit that you don't know anything about instead of leveling the job and trying it out.

[IfritnoItazura]

Yes it does? I land it regularly without swapping. Imps? You would have to be retarded to go /dnc on imps.
Well, at least we agree on RDM/DNC isn't for Imps. Regarding landing Silence on Mamool Ja mages without Wind Staff, I don't believe you.

The reason? I couldn't land it consistently even with Wind Staff. Icemage, who has better merits and much better gear than me, reports the same.

Unless you come up with additional evidence, I'll have to call you a liar.


If your pt is built correctly for a roaming troll PT (rdm brd 4 DD) the diamond hide is off before you can finish casting Dia.
Perhaps I just haven't been luck enough to have such kind of strong party. In any case, SC+MB was fun. :P


I don't Bother silencing the pld and rdm, the shell they spam isn't doing us any harm.
They have Cure IV, too, IIRC. Protect would slow down your DD's, or make you use time and MP to Dispel.

With enfeebling merits and decent gear(318 enf 100mnd) you shouldn't have any problems landing silence.
This on Mamool Ja mages, right? See above on performance of an "average" RDM silence (me and my NQ Wind Staff) and that of a "well geared/merited" RDM silence (Icemage).

The burden of proof is on you.



Colibri: The best setup is 2brd 3 dd and rdm/dnc for pushing out other pts. If it's empty you only need 1 brd and a cor in the place of the second brd is best.
Getting one BRD is hard enough... Can your RDM/DNC function with just one BRD without another COR?

Troll: You need heavy DD and at least 2 vokers, 2 war 2 mnk brd rdm. The key here is roaming fast and not wasting any time betweek kills, the brd positions the mobs along the roaming path and sleeps adds. When you pull a pld both the brd and rdm dispel to remove protect. Save some TP for Box step on the plds.
This sounds good, but would you mind explaining what RDM/DNC adds which makes it better RDM/WHM, besides Box Step? I thought Barfira and Curaga would be helpful versus the RNG Trolls?


Mamool: I have done 2 setups that were very different in play style. One was 2 brd one with /whm.
What's the advantage of RDM/DNC over RDM/WHM in this case, especially since someone needs to be on /WHM anyway?


Many of the completely false claims in this thread such as "you won't ever get enough tp" and "red mages are too busy casting to swing" were already discredited here: http://killingifrit.com/forums.php?m=posts&q=164154
*sigh* Why does it have to KI? That site loads so painfully slow on my computer. I'll read it, but meh...

[Icemage]

Try reading my post next time. If we're pulling skoffin we have a second bard or I'm subbing whm. Yawn all you want on colibri, 20k an hour is 20k an hour. Last time I did /whm on colibri I literally fell asleep, I never had that problem with /dnc.
Everyone can fall asleep on Colibri. As I mentioned above, you can go basically subless and no one would notice. Colibri are pathetic.

Only chain 10? I guess you haven't been in a good roaming pt yet then.
I can break chain 10 in LS parties there, but there's a lot of running and usually something stupid happens to break chains after a while. Gotten up to Chain #45 or so there, but the XP/hr is still pretty weak compared to other camps, and Diamondhide blows since it's not dispellable. On the other hand, there's almost never competition for the camp.

30k/hour? Fix your parse or ditch the anniversary ring, if you're killing fast enough for 30k there won't be enough mobs around to hold it for more than 30 minutes. Everyone knows that's a BS claim.
Corsair + RDM + BRD/NIN + 3x DD. No rings involved. You just need good kill speed and the ability to pull and hold multiple enemies.

I've been in parties where the XP/hr parsed tipped well over 30K/hour, but that rate isn't generally maintainable. 25K/hour is. 30K/hour sustained is doable if everyone's properly merited.

Oh and you guys can keep speculating all you like, it's really not worth the effort to convince you all. So go on keep guessing on shit that you don't know anything about instead of leveling the job and trying it out.
I should level /DNC so I can earn 20K/hour on RDM when I'm earning 25-30K/hr with RDM/WHM? Mmkay. If you say so. :)


Icemage

[Richie]

Tipping xp/hour on a parse isn't the same as earning X amount in a 1 hour period. I got 40k/hour on trolls by your standard.

[IfritnoItazura]

Many of the completely false claims in this thread such as "you won't ever get enough tp" and "red mages are too busy casting to swing" were already discredited here: FFXI Forums - RDM/DNC? - Killing Ifrit (http://killingifrit.com/forums.php?m=posts&q=164154)

Well, I've gone through it. Mixed in with a lot of immature flamming (e.g. xxxfag , fagxxx, xxxtardxxx, etc.), what it comes down to is that:

- Apparently, RDM/DNC with Joyuese works well for meriting Greater Colibri; there are one or two collaborating accounts of RDM/DNC able to keep up Haste x5 and Refresh x1, and no need to dip into Convert every time the timer is up.
- Richie/Richietaru claims it's the best support job for Trolls, but with fewer details. (If there are collaborating accounts, I missed them.)
- Reduce amount of curing needed by using Drain Samba, and use the zero cast time Waltz to provide better safety.

Did not touch on if /DNC would work for pre-merit levels. Also, it's unclear if Joyeuse is a requirement or just nice to have.

* * *

If I may, the consensus so far should be:
1. Works for merit party at Greater Colibri camp.
2. Relies heavily on Joyeuse and prevents staff use; unknown if usable without Joyeuse.
3. Waltz is faster then Cure, therefore safer (when RDM/DNC has TP).

Personally, the idea of not being able to use staves is very disturbing. Also, the community should heavily discourage RDMs without Joyeuse from trying RDM/DNC at this point in time, unless it's an LS/friend party.

[Celeal]

To Richie:

After reading the post from KI, I believe RDM/DNC works for you and your party, but i doubt it would work for an average RDM in an average pick-up party:

Ideal merit party TP-burn setup, RDM/DNC with joy-toy, +34 acc, with a BRD and his song, and I assume the entire party is compose of skillful players with top notch gear too.

If any condition from above is missing.... IMHO the requirement is high for an average player.

When you say "leveling the job and trying it out," I guess it would be a mix result --- some will succeed, some will fail.

Just my 2 gil~

[Electricity Gone Human]

I tried it out on a few TW mobs when trying to get Exoray Mold for a friend of mine for Genkai 1, and with my constantly-improving melee build, It looked like I wasn't missing a whole lot, especially with no merits. So It looked like the ACC Bonus was good.

I'd have to test it out on some T Mobs sometime though for when I plan to merit on Greater Colibri, since I have a Joyeuse as well.

[Celeal]

I guess the relationship between Drain Samba II and the DD/frontline has a huge effect on RDM/DNC performance. The outcome of Drain Samba is determine by:

1) The party's DD/frontline melee accuacy. If the melee miss the mob, no HP to drain.
2) The mob's resistance on Drain Samba. Higher resistance means less HP to drain for each swing.

Note:
-- Drain Samba II has a cap on Drain amount with Weapon Delay * 8 / 100

If the frontline receive damage exceeds the amount which Drain Samba II can cover, the RDM/DNC will need to cover that with "cure."

In order for Drain Samba to continue, the RDM/DNC needs to keep landing his hits accurately. If the RDM/DNC is casting magic, then he is not hitting with his weapon. So, the logical choice is using Waltz to cure the party.

However, Waltz is TP intensive:
-- Curing Waltz : 20 TP heals one member ~70 HP. According FFXIclopedia, Formula of Curing Waltz: Amount healed=floor((Target's Vit + Caster's Chr)/4+60),1)
-- Divine Waltz : 40 TP heals area for 70~90 HP each member. Same formula as Curing Waltz for each member.
-- Curing Waltz II : 35 TP heals one member for 170 HP. Amount healed=floor((Target's Vit + Caster's Chr)/2+130),1)
-- Healing Waltz : 20 TP for one Erase.

To sum it up, the condition for RDM/DNC to function:
1) The RDM/DNC must have good accuacy, good TP gain.
2) The DD/frontline must be have good accuacy for Drain Samba. Also, the faster the melee swing at the mob (Haste), the better performance for Drain Samba.
3) Drain Samba does not work on Undead. Imps also not good for RDM/DNC.

I guess that is the basic approach for RDM/DNC.