DNC Merit Speculation

[Malacite]

Doing a two-part thread here (the other is for SCH and as such in that forum) for fun. SE has not said anything about merits for the new jobs, but why not speculate? Note that these are just some likely possibilities I came up with, and I'd like to see what the rest of you think.

Group I

~ Waltz Recast
~ Jig Recast
~ Steps Accuracy // Duration
~ Drain Samba Potency
~ Aspir Samba Potency


Group II

Job Abilities

~ Aspir Samba III
~ Haste Samba II
~ Free Dance (No TP used for next samba/step/waltz) 15:00 (2:30 upgrade)
~ Extend next Jig // Waltz to all party members
~ "Divine Seal" for Curing Waltzes

Job Traits

~ Conserve TP (Chance your next JA will use no TP, or a reduced amount of TP)
~ Auto-Regain (Seriously doubt this would ever happen but what the hell)


Can't think of anything else at the moment.

[LilithAngel]

I'd replace the Jig recast with Samba recast, honestly, because the Jigs pretty much outlast their own recast, so there'd be no point.

Most everything else looks like it'd actually be nice to have. Can't let Conserve TP or Auto-Regain fly, though (as much as I'd love to have them); Samurai would QQ too much, and I don't wanna deal with any more whining from people than what is needed. :rolleyes:

[Zempten]

Group 1 looks good to me, SE is probably going to throw in Jig Recast just b/c they do random/useless stuff like that.

For Group 2, I'd like the following

Job Trait wise for group 2:

Step Up - "chance your next step will grant an extra finishing move" or "increases stored finishing moves by 1 per upgrade"

Ambidexterity - "Dual Wield - each upgrade decreases delay between weapons by 3%"

Job Ability wise for Group 2:

Vanishing Step - "Dispels target - increase accuracy per upgrade"

Tactical Samba - "Grants extra TP per hit - increase TP recieved by 1% per upgrade"

I throw in Tactical Samba in there b/c it's the only thing left for Samba wise (HP, MP, and Haste already covered). I guess you might say "Why Tactical Samba when there is already Haste Samba?". Well personally I believe Haste Samba works outside the norm meaning it works for PTs that have members that have their haste already capped through gear. Otherwise, I don't see how it benefits the players that don't have it at all. I also see this as a way to throw DNC into say the meele PT for some endgame stuff in that your more effective in a smaller setting. By this I mean, a 18 person Dynamis run vs a 36 person Dynamis run. DNC is just useless in 36 - everything dies too fast for you to accumulate TP to be usable. In a 18 person, your more valuable and can be more useful by increasing your TP gain and maintaining your duties while the meeles can kill a bit faster. This is just one example.

I also decided on Dual Wield just for fun and decided 3% would make it decent enough to be interesting but not broken.

Vanishing Step would be something along the lines of what traditional Dispel DOESN"T work on (most commonly Cerb's stoneskin/Troll's stoneskin). I figured it would be a good way to push DNC in for some endgame stuff but not all. I realize not everything follows this trend in endgame and it's rather selective, but I think we're going to see stuff like this more and more in WOTG endgame stuff as things from TOAU might carry onto WOTG.

Finally, I wanted Step Up b/c you would need alot more TP to keep up with some endgame stuff.

Simply put, I made these up as a way to push DNC in for more endgame scenario. I was thinking about a JT that would allow your Samba/Waltz to carry over to alliance, but I figured BRD's songs don't carry over so why should Sambas. Also I think Waltz should be changed automatically to include your alliance (this shouldn't be meritted at all).

[VZX]

Job Trait wise for group 2:
Step Up - "chance your next step will grant an extra finishing move" or "increases stored finishing moves by 1 per upgrade"

This is too powerful, 60TP charged with 10TP cost? so in 30 seconds you're guaranteed to get 100TP without any form of melee hit. Not to mention it's 3 times faster than SAM normal meditate.

But I can see if they'll reduce step TP cost through merit (-1%TP required per upgrade)

[Zempten]

This is too powerful, 60TP charged with 10TP cost? so in 30 seconds you're guaranteed to get 100TP without any form of melee hit. Not to mention it's 3 times faster than SAM normal meditate.
But I can see if they'll reduce step TP cost through merit (-1%TP required per upgrade)

60 TP for 10 TP? I don't know how that came about. I didn't mean you'll hit 5 FM with just one step.

If your talking about the first version it would just mean 3 FM with one step (even then this is just a chance, it's not always going to happen and therefore not guarenteed).

If your talking about the 2nd version it would just mean you could store up to 6,7, or 8 FM (Reverse Flourish doesn't have to consume all 8 FMs, it could just cap at 5).

[Electricity Gone Human]

Entrainment: Reduces casting time for Sambas by 20% (with full merits).

...it's a start.

[LilithAngel]

I could see storing extra FMs being a popular merit choice, as would be anything that'd reduce TP costs, even if ever so slightly. Unlike mages, all of our abilities must fit within the same pool our potential WSs come from, and 300% is the absolute limit. Either chip away at that pool and build it up slowly with JAs, or blow it all in one shot and start FMing by hitting that Dancing Edge/Eviceration.

Maybe Dancer G2 merits could introduce some trait that could actually allow a job for the first time to literally break the 300% cap? Azure Lore for Blue Mage gives a physical blue spell a "virtual" 350% TP modifier, but Dancer could actually break 300% (would have no effect on WS, of course, but just for the purpose of having extra TP for dances). I dunno, it seems to me that I'm doing just fine as it is, but it's something that could be a possibility.

Something outside the norm. The last two expansions have given us a total of 5 jobs that fit that bill.

[Zempten]

Hm . .. . that's very intereasting. I never thought of breaking the 300% cap.

[LilithAngel]

Probably because nobody has ever had a use for TP other than Weapon Skills. Dancer is already breaking tradition by putting TP to use outside of Weapon Skills, Blue Mage started the trend, but still kinda stayed within a familiar realm by making Physical Blue Magics similar to Weapon Skills via Chain Affinity. Dancer actually follows through by actually using the TP for its JAs, a piece here, a bit there, instead of the whole shebang in one shot. I figured since we're stuck to the number 300 for 75 whole levels, while TP costs for JAs goes up bit by bit, why not break 300% for some G2 merit abilities?

[Example] G2 Merit Job Traits

Rapture
Become capable of storing more than 300% TP. TP ceiling goes up by [10/20/30/pick a number] for each merit, for a maximum of [30/60/90/multiply picked number by 3] at capped merits.

Conserve TP
Has a chance to reduce TP costs of dances. Increase proc rate by [1%/3%/10%/pick a percentage] per merit, for a maximum of [3%/9%/30%/multiply picked percentage by 3] at capped merits.

This, of course, only applies when Dancer is main, and only for the purpose of using the extra TP for dances. It would have no effect on any Weapon Skill used while over 300% TP (it would register as you only having 300% when calculating mods). It would help relieve some of the TP requirements of dances since the pool we pull our abilities from never changes from levels 1 to 75.

[Malacite]

What about Flourishes III ?

Like one that will make any spell cast in the next 10s automatically MB! (this would be HUGE! Should cost minimum 3 FM) and another "WS" move, but instead of acting as a lv 1 WS, should act as a lv 3 (again using at least 3 FM) effectively reading the mob for a Light or Darkness SC.

[LilithAngel]

Well, considering the fact that the recast on just about every Dancer JA is retardedly small to begin with, I'd say G1 can easily do w/o any recast lowering merits, and instead focus on modifying them in other ways. Perhaps merits to increase the accuracy of Flourishes, or strengthen the effects they give? Animated Flourish, even when it soaks 2 FMs, is a joke...

What would Flourishes III even add? Only thing I could think of is a Dispel-type move.

On a side note, I just made 49, and I'll prolly stop at 50 until the AF goes street. I'd like to know if the pieces are decent/good enough to warrant using them instead of stuff off the AH, cuz as it stands, the selection is rather bare-bones atm, and the prices are going up cuz people are realizing that. When your weapon selection goes from Specific Weapon A to Specific Weapon B, and that trend continues for many levels, people are gonna take notice, and try to capitalize on that just to make a quick gil. I wanna see if SE widens Dancer's selections any before moving on much more, to try to break the grip the AH has on new jobs.

EDIT: You added the answer to my question as I posted it. LOL Anyways, yeah, I could see that, but I'm not sure SE would give us the power to just force a MB. Even Wild Flourish is just another form of self-SC, albeit a bit more limited, but that's the same thing Blue Mages have been doing since lvl 40 anyways.

[VZX]

Entrainment: Reduces casting time for Sambas by 20% (with full merits).
...it's a start.
Sambas are JA, hence instant casting time.

[Malacite]

Yeah I couldn't tell if that was sarcasm or just misinformed.

The recast time on most of the individual dances is small, but some of the categories (like Sambas) are annoying (1 minute before you can even pick a different samba) so being able to lower those might help in situations where you're swapping on the fly.

[Lmnop]

Wouldn't upping TP cap (over 300) be the same as universally lowering the cost of dances...? And a lot easier to implement as well.

[Armando]

Malacite: I can't tell if VZX was being sarcastic, but his point was that EGH wrote "casting time" when he probably meant "recast time."

Lmnop: In practice, not quite, because a DNC starts with 0 TP. Increasing max TP would allow a DNC to use more dances with that TP if he hoards that much, but reducing the cost of dances accross the board allows the DNC to constantly use more dances. Basically, the DNC is going to be gaining a certain amount of TP/minute, and lowering the cost of dances lowers the amount of TP/minute the DNC uses up, which allows for building up more TP over time.

[LilithAngel]

That was pretty much the point I was trying to make. Breaking 300% would give us more dances, true, but reducing the TP costs (even if only by chance) makes it easier overall for a Dancer to do her thing. Having both as meritable traits would be pretty good, and in line with the amount of power both would give at 75. They'd give Dancer a lot more to work with.

[Karinya]

But effectively Samba *does* have a casting time, because the animation is so damn long. There's no casting bar, it can't be interrupted, and I don't know how it interacts with your swing timer, but you can't move or activate other abilities while you're "casting" your Samba.

[Malacite]

Not true >. >

I've always been able to Quickstep right after activating a Samba. Just spam the button XD

[VZX]

Yeah, samba animation is so damn long that it may lock your character movement, but no... you're not stunned or something,

After 1 JA activation you can go to JA menu and activate another before the previous' animation ends

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Problem for endgame dancers is that there are situations where TPing a mob isn't always an option. Like Kirin, your only real hope there is to have /SAM for Meditate or get shoved aside for WHM and RDM. But even Meditate may not be enough for that situation

Merits have a twofold purpose (1) being customization/preference and (2) being enhancing your role at endgame.

DNC doesn't have much problem with TP in EXP, Merit and I don't forsee a problem in Dynamis, Limbus (sans slashing weapon immune mobs), Nyzul or Salvage. Where DNC is going to hurt is things like HNM, BC/KSNM, Wyrms and Gods. Sometimes there isn't a mob nearby to TP on, some mobs shouldn't be TP any more than whats neccesary.

So we can max thier TP cap or we could lower TP cost for dances, but neither really get around the matter of lacking a place to get TP. /SAM won't always be the best subjob pick to address this matter. You can't do steps to build finishing moves without TP to start with, so that limits Reverse Flourish, too. There's the possibility of gaining support from CORs and SAMs via thier TP enhancing or transfer abilities, but its also not always an option, either.

I'm thinking something more along the lines of Devotion or Chivalry would be more appropriate for Dancer, perhaps at the expense of a signifigant amount of HP or a consumable item to stay fueled on TP when needed.

So DNC needs something to aid thier endgame endurance, I don't think thier EXP endurance is as much of an issue as much as thier lack of viablity in certain areas.

[Lmnop]

Gain 1 tp when you miss a melee attack (or hit for 0). Further merits increase to 1.5 and 2 tp.

How overpowered would that be?

[VZX]

Problem for endgame dancers is that there are situations where TPing a mob isn't always an option. Like Kirin, your only real hope there is to have /SAM for Meditate or get shoved aside for WHM and RDM. But even Meditate may not be enough for that situation

It's been a long since I fought Kirin, but so far Kirin actions are just:
1. Spell casting
2. Warping around the room
3. TP move

I never recall Kirin use normal move. I can recall I got tail swing 3x consecutively though.

TP problem comes when you fight Grand Wyrms most of the time

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Kirin TPs at will, what I meant was in most cases that Kirin is either difficult to TP on or burned to the point where TPing for cures doesn't have much of a point. Additionally, he's in an area where you can't really gain TP before the fight.

For other Gods, TPing would have to take place outside of thier arenas. I don't know how well a DNC can get TP after the fights start, though. I see some difficulty on Byakko after that. Same thing with Kings. You do have some stuff to TP on out there, but how well you TP depends on how your LS plans to take the HNM down. If its kiting, you're pretty much screwed.

Wyrms, as you've said, you kinda want to shy away from TPing.

Other endgame content I see DNC faring just as well as any job could.

Meditate and Trance are really the only ways to pull TP out of thin air for DNC, that is, unless you want to carry and Opo Necklace and Sleep potions with you for the sidelines and TP regain. Its not totally impractical, but when cures are needed the last thing you want is your healer chugging Nyquil, ya know?

[Malacite]

o. O that'd be awesome, give them Convert for TP

But at what rate? 1 HP : 1 TP or more HP ?

[Karinya]

Kirin TPs at will, what I meant was in most cases that Kirin is either difficult to TP on or burned to the point where TPing for cures doesn't have much of a point. Additionally, he's in an area where you can't really gain TP before the fight.
Well, not by hitting things. There are other ways to get TP (even without a DNC merit that gives TP or something similar).
For other Gods, TPing would have to take place outside of thier arenas. I don't know how well a DNC can get TP after the fights start, though. I see some difficulty on Byakko after that. Same thing with Kings. You do have some stuff to TP on out there, but how well you TP depends on how your LS plans to take the HNM down. If its kiting, you're pretty much screwed.
No more so than any other DD who is wasting valuable space in the alliance unless they're ready to WS and make room for the next guy. You could lead a party that beats down the local mobs, keeping other DD healthy as they rotate in, fight for TP, and drop out to rejoin the main alliance and WS the HNM. (Except at fights where there aren't any local mobs. Then you're stuck with the meditate or sleep potion options, or begging for Shikikoyo.)

It's partly a kiting issue and partly a claim issue - which is why it's much less of an issue in no-claim areas like Dynamis, Limbus, Salvage, Assault and Einherjar. HNMs that pop in normal zones aren't the whole endgame. If DNC are less effective in a few fights, you can come as another job or just don't do those fights.
Wyrms, as you've said, you kinda want to shy away from TPing.
Other endgame content I see DNC faring just as well as any job could.
Meditate and Trance are really the only ways to pull TP out of thin air for DNC, that is, unless you want to carry and Opo Necklace and Sleep potions with you for the sidelines and TP regain. Its not totally impractical, but when cures are needed the last thing you want is your healer chugging Nyquil, ya know?
Well, I doubt DNC is going to be the *main* healer at any of those fights. They might provide some backup healing, but seriously, let the WHMs do their jobs.


Unfortunately there isn't much that DNC can uniquely provide to an HNM fight. Tanks are probably not swinging to benefit from Drain Samba and wouldn't get enough to matter if they did. Mages, Aspir Samba, ditto. Steps are OK, especially if they stack with other endgame debuffs like Dia III, Angon or Feint, but they're hardly compelling. And since it's not that easy to recover TP, curing can probably be done better by the MP-based healers.

This is not to say that a DNC can't find *something* useful to do - but they probably won't have any dramatic impact on the fight. In a fight where most melees are meleeing they could provide Haste or Drain Sambas cheaply and keep a melee DD party alive without needing attention from MP healers, but 18/40 person fights (where 40 show up, 18 can have claim at once) against level 90+ mobs just play to DNC's weaknesses, no two ways about it.

[Lmnop]

I think DD party is an excellent place for a Dancer. Maybe we're a bit backwards? But our LS still just nukes the shit out of Kirin with 2-5 melee DDs chasing behind, occasionally stopping for SATAWS. Divine waltz (I think? Curaga one) would be great when something goes wrong and we eat a -ga. And of course, just applying steps non-stop and haste samba when we're healthy.

As for steps: It's worth mentioning the last of them: the -magic defense. This could prove invaluable for BLM-heavy strategies.

[LilithAngel]

Well, one thing I've noticed people have forgotten (or simply not noticed), is the Dancer's multiple layers of Subtle Blow traits that have been revealed in the OnlineD interview. That might be a nod from SE that they realize that since the job requires TP to function, and some fights do not really allow most melee jobs to TP on other targets besides the main one, that they want to move it to the front lines for most everything the player base could reasonably do so (that is, anywhere the DNC could be expected to survive while being on the front lines).

Since SE recognizes (at least, it seems that way form the design of the job) that attacking the mob, giving it TP in the process, is a strategy that's not often utilized by a significant number of LSs, giving this job the ability to do so with less of a consequence (along the same lines as Monk and Ninja), may actually let LSs give Dancers a spot on the line. Gear choices would have to take advantage of this trait, of course, but it would mean that Dancer at least has a viable reason to be up front, swinging away, and can allay fears of "feeding the mob TP" by pointing out the fact that it specifically has a trait to prevent that from happening (to a degree), similar to Monk and Ninja. How and where it goes from there, would be up to the individuals and LS strategies involved.

I could very well see Dancer fit comfortably in quite a few instances where other front line melee wouldn't be, providing support to those that are, or, as others mentioned, supporting the backup/alternate pool of melee/CC teams.

Also, RE Steps: they would require the Dancer to remain on the mob, swinging away, for them to remain in effect, not to mention effective, for the Dancer needs to be in place to monitor and maintain the steps, and to do that, they'll need TP, and since they need to remain in place indefinately for the duration of the need for the step, guess what they'll need to TP on...

[Malacite]

Now if only Subtle worked without having to pile on loads of it.

[Yellow Mage]

On the topic of Subtle Blow, I've bothered to calculate how much Store TP equals how much Subtle Blow. As in, if you were to fight yourself, the amount of Subtle Blow you would need to cancel out how much Store TP you would need (because it's not actually a 1:1 ratio; close, but decimals don't work that way). The values I got are:

0% Store TP : 0% Subtle Blow
25% Store TP : 20% Subtle Blow
100% Store TP : 50% Subtle Blow

The first and last are extremes, assuming the fact that Subtle Blow caps at 50% is true (50% halves enemy TP gain and 100% Store TP, if possible, doubles your own). The middle one came through some weird factoring/multiplication, but I believe my math was sound in finding it. Through the same factoring/multiplication (and the fact that Subtle Blow caps at 50%), I also noted those were the only possible three values that worked in this particular instance.

Anyways, pretty useless, I know, but I was bored, and wanted to share something that piqued my curiosity some time ago.

[Malacite]

Store TP +100 is indeed very much possible.

SAM roll can now do +50 on an 11, as well as SAM's 4 native traits (totaling +25) and misc gear and merits.

The cap should be around 120 now I think, give or take. (which would give you 25 TP a swing...)