I know rdm roles are pretty much enfebble, refresh, and back-up heal; but I am wondering if rdm(in a typical party set-up) could ever be used as a DD?

This question comes up like once every other week I think O_o.

Anyway, while you could theoretically gear a RDM out to DD, why would someone invite one as a DD? I don't know about all servers, but from what I've read the majority seem to NEVER have a problem finding DD, the things that are hard to find are tanks, healers and refreshers. Enspells do a decent amount of damage if you use the correct element, but honestly I can't think of much a RDM can bring to a party that a BLU can't in regards to DDing.

If you can actually make it work then it'd be interesting to see, but I don't think it's something you can get away LFG with. You'd probably need a static or to stick doing campaign(which I've seen a fair amount of lately).

This question comes up like once every other week I think O_o.

). sorry about that(I haven't been on this site in a little while and I forgot to search-my bad). I am trying to figure out what sub I want to use for blu but I don't want to lvl thf or nin and don't want to just refresh and enfeeble .

Red mages' melee damage gets pretty subpar in the late 20's, if I remember right, and I gave up on it after 30. You stand the risk of getting hit by enemy AoE effects in a lot of instances, which can slow down party exp needlessly if you're not really doing significant damage. Also, with a sword, we're limited as to what weapon skills we can use (unless you're subbing war...), and dagger just doesn't do a lot of damage. As for magical damage, we get all the black magic spells a few levels later than the black mages, so we're always a little behind in that area. My black magic skill isn't capped either, I know, because I'm usually too busy with enfeebling and healing to cast many offensive spells.
For these reasons and a lot more I'm sure you could find in other posts, red mages usually aren't considered to be powerful DD, or DD at all, past a certain level. It's possible I guess, but difficult to do.
As for BLU subjobs, it's a little offtopic, but I've heard whm and war are all right if you don't want to level thf or nin. Might want to ask on the blue mage forums though. :-)

At 75 a RDM gains maximum flexibility from access to merits and all gear possibilities, plus full potential abilities from subjobs..

RDM can DD decently at this level, which is to stay about on par with AH DD's. It takes a lot of effort; like full combat merits, picking mobs weak to piercing damage, and a haste/acc build. Comparing to top notch DD's, RDM will fall behind by maybe ~20%. But as mentioned average DD's can fall in this level of damage as well.


Typical gear choices would be:

Blau Dolch/Joyeuse
T. Sting
SH or Pln. Khazagand
W Turban
PCC
Dusk Gloves
Dusk Legs or Pln Legs or Volunteer's Brais or Vendors Slops
Ogre +1 or Dusk Feet
Amemet Mantle +1
Swift Belt
Suppanomimi and Hollow/Brutal
2 Acc rings or 1 Acc ring + rajas

Evisceration gearswaps will demand acc/dex/str/attack, generally trading out the haste items.

Vs merit targets, even with full weapon merits, a RDM will likely be best served with Sushi.

Greater Colibri are good targets. Generally RDM/NIN DD'ing means having a backline RDM to do refreshes and hastes, because you need all the swing time you can get.

To be a decent RDM DD you'd have to have some pretty decent gear. Will include probably some abj. gear, AF2, and expensive AH gear. The problem with RDM DD is that you can't max out both aspects and be useful to a party; meaning you can't gear for melee and mage roles at the same time.

First thier's a limit to space. Carrying around a bunch of staves along iwth your INT and MND gear can be a strain as it is, and on top of that a full DEX and STR sets and you'll be at about 100 slots you need to do it right.

Second, if you're meleeing you need TP. But you lose TP when you swap weapons. So if you're casting spells you should be using the appropriate stave, if you're not you're gimping yourself as well as holding back the party. Or, if you do swap to staves to cast, then you're losing out on your DPS and not really contributing that much in way of melee damage.

This is assuming higher levels of course. If you're leveling a subjob, then RDM can DD quit well to the 30 with normal melee gear that is available to you. But then again, if you're LFG then most likely anyone that invites you will be expecting more in the way of cures and enfeebles than a melee DPS unless you buld the party to allow you to melee.

Many RDMs argue that they want to be an actual melee force to be reackoned with, but as it is now you arn't. Not that you can't be, but player mindset and the lack of mages makes it so. Personally I leveled my RDM in solo/duos to 37 for my subjob being a melee. It worked out ok, but not overly effective compared to when I leveled my WAR and SAM.

Forgot to mention that by 75 where your enfeebling skill can easily surpass 320, you don't really need staves. Also, we tend not to enfeeble xp mobs at that level except for Dia. Its a waste of mp on stuff that dies in 30-45 seconds. Lastly, the camp I mentioned is full of piercing-weak mobs that mimic magic cast on them.

I can't think of any abjuration gear or relic gear I'd melee DD in. Crimson Mask is ok, but I think W. Turban/O. Hat will work better. Crimson is great for defenseive style soloing, but not for DD'ing. Zenith likewise is useless for meleeing. Relic body might be helpful for some enhancing casts to go quicker, but 10% fast cast is still pretty small when dealing with spells that only take a few seconds. Relic hat might be handy if mp gets low and will help if you're casting enfeebles that can be resisted without staves. I've done just fine without it and wouldn't wear it when my objective is dealing damage.

A RDM/NIN geared for melee and eating sushi has significantly less mp than a backline RDM. The style of play is vastly different. The DD'ing RDM can be a puller if needed. He can still be a handler of links. He will mostly take care of himself, but can give up some swing time to provide some limited support to party members like occasional Hastes/refreshes or Cure IVs. Ideally his magical support is for emergency use or to help out between pulls.


Anytime I'm invited to a merit party where there's a WHM or SMN is a good time to suggest I can fill a DD role and still provide Dia/Refresh and a few backup cures. I don't seek as RDM/NIN of course, neither should you. But you should recognize party setups and/or camps where RDM melee may be possible or even advisable.


There are other degrees of damage-to-support RDM can play. For instance /BLU grants Vorpal Blade and a cheap Cure III and AOE cure. It can give nice stat and mp boosts compared to every other sub, and some other things like auto-regen and killer traits. RDM/BLU tones down potential damage-dealing compared to RDM/NIN but has better ability to provide some support where there's already a main-healer (preferably one that can at least haste the melees and fix statuses).

/DNC I won't get into since there's been a lot of discussion about it already. Its low on the melee damage side and high on the support side. In order to use some of its support functions it needs to melee for TP. It gives up mp like most other meleeing subjobs and cases of sushi-eating, but gets additional utility to /endrain/enaspir/cure/curaga/erase/enfeeble from its TP pool.

I'm not so adamantly opposed to the idea of RDM as damage dealers, except for the fact that it gives new players entirely the wrong idea about how RDMs actually work.

In certain specific instances, yes, you can do some melee and deal a bit of damage without doing any harm. The truth, though, is that even with an all-out combat setup, with 3 or 4 DDs in your party, you're going to get a lot of mileage out of casting Haste on the dedicated damage dealers as opposed to hitting things yourself.

If there's a Dancer in the party, and you're fighting Colibris, then yes, melee setup might work as well or better as a pure caster. In most other cases, I think it's a wash, or inferior.

Certainly at any level between 35 and the early 50s, I don't see any rationale for going in with a melee approach on RDM.


Icemage

I'm not so adamantly opposed to the idea of RDM as damage dealers, except for the fact that it gives new players entirely the wrong idea about how RDMs actually work.

These fighter-mages can utilize both black and white magic, as well as the arts of the sword.

To be fair, they are more guilty of that (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bait_and_Switch) than any of us are.

"Can utilize" hardly means whacking everything that moves with a sword. (Heck, you don't see Warriors above Lv.40 use Provoke, do you?)

"Can utilize" hardly means whacking everything that moves with a sword. (Heck, you don't see Warriors above Lv.40 use Provoke, do you?)
I do, but only at level 74+. :) But that's besides the point.

Square-Enix has said a lot of bizarre things over the years. Their official descriptions of many of the jobs is seriously out of sync with how the jobs actually play - red mage in particular has undergone massive changes since its initial introduction, so it suffers from this more than most.

That doesn't mean we, as players, don't have a responsibility to educate others about how to best take advantage of the job they are playing. If we just shrug and say "Oh well do whatever you want, I'm sure it'll be fine." then we have no right to complain the next time we see a red mage in our party wearing a scorpion harness with a ninja subjob.


Icemage

OP: It could be done, but it would be sub-par when compared to a dedicated Damage Dealer, but here's what I've said throughout my RDM-dom: "it's better than nothing at all."

1. You'll need a Melee gear set, as there are plenty of useful pieces RDM can use to make one. Even if it's the Crimson Blade at 49 (You can laugh, but dual-wielding this at 49-55 is pretty handy for INT-based enfeebles, so it's a nice bonus). This has been explained a few times, so I'll just leave it at that.

2. a MAB+INT-oriented set, although since Magic Accuracy Bonus is a bit of an issue on RDM, you'll end up getting resisted about half of the time. It's useful when doing things with BLMs for: EXP on Wamoura Princes in the 70's and/or general Nuke-Kite-Debuffing. You'll still throw some refreshes in, but not as frequently.

That's my input.

It could be done, but it would be sub-par when compared to a dedicated Damage Dealer, but here's what I've said throughout my RDM-dom: "it's better than nothing at all."
Well, a melee'ing RDM is definitely better than a RDM who does nothing at all, in the same way that dirty, foul smelling, polluted air is definitely better than not having any air.

* * *

I keep hearing people who claim they can melee and mind the spells without dropping a thing.

Try asking the rest of the players about the meleeing RDMs they typically see: are those the super-RDMs, or the useless RDMs who barely Refresh or enfeeble, never mind curing? (And, did they out damage the DRG's wyvern?)

Just because something is possible, it hardly means it's possible for every RDM who want to be DD to be effective. Too many who tried turned into exp leeches, IMO.

* * *

1. You'll need a Melee gear set, as there are plenty of useful pieces RDM can use to make one. Even if it's the Crimson Blade at 49 (You can laugh, but dual-wielding this at 49-55 is pretty handy for INT-based enfeebles, so it's a nice bonus). This has been explained a few times, so I'll just leave it at that.
Staves--you cast offensive spells with them Lv.51+, not swords. Also, most often used/important enfeebs used in exp parties are MND based (i.e. Dia, Slow, and Silence). The important INT based ones (Sleep, Bind, Gravity) are done with elemental staves as well.

Before Lv.51, INT/MND wands for casting--still not swords.

Well, a melee'ing RDM is definitely better than a RDM who does nothing at all, in the same way that dirty, foul smelling, polluted air is definitely better than not having any air.

I keep hearing people who claim they can melee and mind the spells without dropping a thing.

Try asking the rest of the players about the meleeing RDMs they typically see: are those the super-RDMs, or the useless RDMs who barely Refresh or enfeeble, never mind curing? (And, did they out damage the DRG's wyvern?)

Just because something is possible, it hardly means it's possible for every RDM who want to be DD to be effective. Too many who tried turned into exp leeches, IMO.

That foul air is just mistaken for getting Blinded. The icon does look like polluted air, after all.

Advocating melee wasn't necessarily the point to my post. I was just saying what you would need in order to do it, not exactly say "Yes, your pick-up party won't mind if you do it." I don't know if you're just trying to misunderstand me, but I've noticed that some RDMs are anti-melee mainly because they can't seem to keep up in a normal exp party. Let's hope you're not one of them for the sake of taking up RDM as a main job, as I remember you saying that you've tried and failed.

I was fairly able to keep up with my static party back in the day, from the feedback I've gotten. What I did was back when ToAU wasn't even out as well, and of course I wouldn't recommend it, unless you've gotten some practice elsewhere, for example, soloing.

Staves--you cast offensive spells with them Lv.51+, not swords. Also, most often used/important enfeebs used in exp parties are MND based (i.e. Dia, Slow, and Silence). The important INT based ones (Sleep, Bind, Gravity) are done with elemental staves as well.

Before Lv.51, INT/MND wands for casting--still not swords.Nobody DD's with Wands, though, so if you're going to try and melee, that B-Rank Sword shouldn't be sitting there in your inventory.

And let's not forget about Blind if Flash/Kurayami resists. And if I remember correctly, INT+10 = 5 Magic Attack/Accuracy, so swapping in INT Gear should improve the spell.

Oh, that reminds me to add to the original post: don't skimp out on Gobbiebag quests.

I'm only saying if it's set right to the point where you can melee, then go for it. No need to make an argument about it, really.

ElectricityGone...

I've had the pleasure of taking my Rdm out for a bit of a melee whirl, and while my dagger DoT was vastly higher than our inimitable Thf's dagger DoT... I can safely say - that my performance even with meritted Dagger, a full set of acc/attack gear - my damage wasn't enough to warrant my melee. And I'm a Thf at heart, with a mostly full collection of various knives I can play with.

Rdm isn't a melee job in exp. Added to which - keeping hastes/enfeebles/healing/refresh/etc etc etc etc - isn't worth losing my focus on that, and to be honest, I don't see how any Rdm can do all of the above and melee - even as a subpar DD. You can call me a fail Rdm if you wish, but I have tried it on the last mob of a party, and even with it being a bat and me being a daggerboy didn't impress me enough to go yep, I should be melee'ing.

Rdm isn't my main. Being a melee is. So - I'd say I'm fairly well qualified to say whether my melee was worth it. And the end result was: An astounding no. A very qualified no. As even with hitting for 30 a hit as fast as I was - a well geared DD should be miles ahead of me and all I was doing was feeding the mob TP.

I've done it as the last mob in a party to see and wasn't impressed, and whenever I see Rdm's do it as a general style of exp, I cringe, then either replace them or disband.

I'm only saying if it's set right to the point where you can melee, then go for it. No need to make an argument about it, really.
Well, if a RDM is set up right, he'd have staves (and wands before Lv.51) for casting.

For the melee RDM, even with swords on macro, inevitably he'd lose TP from weapon switch and at least occasionally melee'ing with wands and staves (unintentionally). So, we're talking about lower skill DD (B ranked sword), who spends much time casting, and often with the wrong weapon, and never has TP enough for a weapon skill. That means a low output DD, any way you slice it.

It comes down to cost/benefit--is the cost of being in AoE range, the extra distraction and the time (from macro switches and time not used for MP rest) and the macro space worth the minuscule amount of damage a spell-busy RDM can contribute?

Call it an argument if you want; advocating the right approach for the majority of RDMs is the correct thing to do. Plus, I suspect most RDMs who think they can do melee'ing and spell casting both correctly probably can't, judging from the complaints people have regarding RDMs in exp parties.

I wouldn't say that you're a fail RDM if you can't melee and keep up all of your casting duties, it's just not for some people. I personally have no problem meleeing while keeping my orders up, really the only issue is that I spend so much time casting I'm not spending enough time swinging.

My macros are all very specifically set up to enable me to easily cast all spells while meleeing, while still getting near max potency out of all of them. I carry roughly 58 pieces of RDM gear at all times so that I can pull off all facets of the job, even meleeing. Do I melee while I'm the main healer? Of course not. But sometimes, even in merits, you're just the Refresher, at times even not pulling, so what else are you going to do?

And @ Itaz, at higher levels, Elemental Staves are only going to affect your spell accuracy, not really your potency(for debuffs). While meleeing I can still easily hit 100+ INT/MND(especially now thanks to Tuna Sushi), and I really never see problems landing spells on mobs that I would try meleeing. I know we've gone back and forth over this with the last thread on this, but really if you're properly geared at merit level and you can't land your spells without staves you're missing something, at which point yes, you probably shouldn't melee.

To the point of the thread, if you want to melee, don't believe that you can't. But DO believe that you are going to need not only respectable casting gear, but also good melee gear in order to A) actually get your RDM duties done and B) actually hit the mobs for damage. If you're willing to put the time and effort into getting the gear/merits needed, pop some sushi and enjoy yourself.

And @ Itaz, at higher levels, Elemental Staves are only going to affect your spell accuracy, not really your potency(for debuffs). While meleeing I can still easily hit 100+ INT/MND(especially now thanks to Tuna Sushi), and I really never see problems landing spells on mobs that I would try meleeing. I know we've gone back and forth over this with the last thread on this, but really if you're properly geared at merit level and you can't land your spells without staves you're missing something, at which point yes, you probably shouldn't melee.

Merit level, yes, I can see several targeted monsters where RDM melee'ing can be done. Not Imps, obviously, but Colibri, maybe. Unfortunately, I tend to get DDs who take big chunks of damage at random times when in Greater Colibri camp, so I rather rest for MP than swing a sword, in case I need to toss out Cure IV's. (You'd think a WAR/NIN can provoke a Greater Colibri to help a fellow DD from dying, but apparently, they'd rather deplete my MP pool instead.)

Before meriting and enfeebling magic merits, however, spell accuracy from the elemental staves is darn important. That's a lot of levels we're talking about here where casting without staves is not the thing to do.

Before meriting and enfeebling magic merits, however, spell accuracy from the elemental staves is darn important. That's a lot of levels we're talking about here where casting without staves is not the thing to do.

Just to add in another point, there are some players (like myself) that enjoy experimenting with unusual party set ups and unusual camps.

It's not impossible for a player to be able to join one of these groups (though most often, of course, as a static). In the right set up a RDM will certainly be able to pull off meleeing.

advocating the right approach for the majority of RDMs is the correct thing to do.

This is subjective.

Honestly. I love how one sided people are on against DDing RDMs. True that at times it isn't good, but at the same time, while it is good to do so, you're DDs that were doing so well on keeping hate control from spike dmg suddenly start to suck, dunes style. >_> Least in my parties as rdm and whm dding. They didn't say anything out loud, they just started sucking mp, then started being semi golden again when I'm on the back lines.

Personally. I'd really want to see how SE is playing the RDM to do damage boost. Possibilty a spell to instant cast if you're gaining tp through auto attack, but penality of a 3x longer recast timer. Though that'll still be over powered, but it would put more options as to letting a rdm melee with instant cast only while they're auto attacking. Or a way to tweak this broken chainspell in attack mode would to make the casting timer go up a certain number of percent with each landing hit. Fast cast would act as a melee haste while this trait is active.

Serious note, dual weild daggers on rdm is like the dmg my thief in haste/acc food build. Only difference is an additional 16-18 points additional damage from enspells. Swords, I can't get an accurate view to compare by eye balling it due primarily to, lack of Savage Blade and no ex ws when i /nin. Dagger so far for rdm/nin is better than sword. Atk food + acc gear for rdm/war or rdm/drk DDing sword and daggers are about equal.

Orz, I gotta get a parser for this stuff ~_~; Come on SE make us on <_<;

I believe in actual prove...

If I am the party leader and the RDM in my party request for melee, I will let him/her to try in a few battles to prove himself/herself....

My personal expectation from RDM in a party is very low anyway ( /off-topic )

IMHO, if the party conditions allows the RDM to melee, the chances are, it does not make much difference. (Because the party has enough damage output and HP/MP recovery).

From a DD stand point of view, RDM's melee dmg output only fits in support damage.

Fast cast would act as a melee haste while this trait is active.

This sounds like an intriguing idea: convert Fast Cast to Haste? This could definately give Red Mages more incentive to diversify and Melee occasionally.

Also, Enspell II: imbue the weapon so it gives a boost to spells of a corresponding element: the "Sword Antenna" logic.

Reposting mode: 行きます! :thumbsup:

-Up to lvl 40 a RDM can melee and deal decent dmg given they have enough inventory space for equip macros so they actually get everything done. And by everything I mean enfeebling without resists and dealing enough damage to make worth the TP you are feeding to the mob.

-After lvl 40 RDM has no place meleeing in a party, with Refresh at 41 (and Haste at 48)RDM role changes completely to support, which consumes too much MP to make using time to melee instead of resting MP simply not worth it.

-And then there's the thing that after lvl 50 no matter how well equiped you are the B weapon skill rating and the lack of dd weapons will start showing you how gimped we are in the damage department.

-By lvl65 you wont hit a thing unless you spend a lot of gil and inventory space, and all for very laughable damage.

Now, we do become strong soloers (albeit very slow) after level 60 and the pimp hat, but that is a completely different story and has nothing to do with xp parties. :P

And that's what I think about this for the 100th time. :thumbsup:


Edit > And yes, depending on what SE does to make RDMs go to the frontlines (as they said they we considering to do at the event) like lolSpellblade and stuff this notion could change considerably. :)

To the point of the thread, if you want to melee, don't believe that you can't. But DO believe that you are going to need not only respectable casting gear, but also good melee gear in order to A) actually get your RDM duties done and B) actually hit the mobs for damage. If you're willing to put the time and effort into getting the gear/merits needed, pop some sushi and enjoy yourself. I think the most important factor, oft overlooked, is practice. Practice, practice, PRACTICE. No RDM is successful at front line battle-casting right off the start. It takes repetition and refinement, to put the gear you've obtained to good use.

So often when you hear stories of RDM's failings at battle-casting, it's from someone bitter at a RDM who was inexperienced at it, and unsurprisingly fumbled. Their disapproval grew, cancerously, among the community, until it was taken for granted that RDM is incapable of simultaneous combat and casting. However, attempts and repetition are the only way one learns to improve, and it's gotta happen sometime.

So, practice. Lots of it.
From a DD stand point of view, RDM's melee dmg output only fits in support damage. This reminds me of something I've been wondering. Exactly how does one tier damage?

When referring to RDM damage dealing, we are often berated, or dismissed, as even our best output "pales to a dedicated DD." But compared to whom?

My average damage obviously pales before WAR, MNK, DRK, DRG has been known to keep up with Theives and PLDs, barring Weapon Skill numbers.

So what are we comparing it to? If we're constantly gonna be compared to the likes of the former four, then we should just hang up the chapeaus and rapiers.

Parse it.

Preferably, in a party with a Dragoon, so you can compare output; if you out damage the wyvern without dropping Haste, Refresh, and enfeebles, go for it--your melee'ing is an asset. Otherwise, aim for 10% of the total damage or higher.

However:

If you're getting hit by AoE to the point where stoneskin isn't absorbing most of the damage--if you or someone else has to keep dropping cures on you--go back to the back line.
If you drop Refresh or Haste for more than 10 seconds more than a couple of times, go back to the back line.
If the party has to stop killing stuff because you don't have MP, go to the back line.
If the enfeebles are not sticking, recast with the right staff or wand. If nothing sticks well without staff/wand, go to the back line.
If the party is screaming at you for Dispel, Silence, Haste, Refresh--doesn't matter how you think you're doing--get away from the front, and go to the back line and concentrate on the spells.


Are those demands to a DD RDM reasonable? Prove you can damage, and not drop mage duty--otherwise, get out of the front line, and concentrate on spells and MP from the back. (Don't think I have to ask RDM to get away from monsters with silencega, I hope.)

(Don't think I have to ask RDM to get away from monsters with silencega, I hope.)

And why do you think we've grown to carry echo drops a lot now?

*gives the finger to that goddamn Heraldic Imp right behind me*

Itaza....I'm taking a note from BLM's book...
/stab
/ma Hadoken Itaza.
/joy

Serious response.
That last bullet statement. Its gonna happen no matter what.
10sec haste/refresh one; There are times when even on back lines its gonna happen, either due to sleep/pulling or recovering from massasive spike dmg.

You'e bashing one thing rdms want to do, which is the one job wars only do.
Wars: Tank, pull, DD, backup/duo tanking.
Rdms: pull, support, dd

Notice, both been placed to do 1 thing generally. And when most times when asked to do another of the tasks possible, not prepared or willing.

>_>
Akashimo's Red Mage Anger Skill rises to 210.

Are those demands to a DD RDM reasonable? No, not really. They're pretty unreasonable, actually.
Your demands sound about as reasonable expecting a NIN to keep up shadows perfectly(as in "no damage") while holding hate absolutely(as in "Curaga 4 goes unnoticed") throughout a session, or a WHM to keep all six members in the yellow while removing status ailments the same second the are afflicted, or a BRD to to keep songs on melee and mages perpetually while pulling.
Now that I think of it, I just demanded less of the jobs I mentioned in the situations I just mentioned, which still turn out to be unreal.
What you're asking for is RDM Jesus Christ in the Garden of Eden, Vana'diel edition. Moreover, you know it's an unreal expectation. So what are you playing at?

RDM is last job to ever worry about AoE. Between Stoneskin, Phalanx, Protect/Shell, Bar-spells, Aquaveil, and optional shadows(Blink or Utsusemi), I /rofl everytime someone asks me to stay back for my safety. As if.
Odds are any AoE strong enough to tear through the RDM's defenses has already killed everyone else, so the RDM's frontline position is both moot and well-earned at that point.
My only caveat to your demand: "if you can't keep at least two protective buffs on yourself(re: Stoneskin/Phalanx), you should move to the black line."
And what's this about dropping Cures on yourself? That's the whole effing point! That's freaking magic of RDM! When he gets hit, you don't have to waste mana covering him! He does it himself! If I get hit, I better damn well Cure myself and then get right back at it!
If I drop Refresh for more than ten seconds... yay me, I'm human. Something went wrong. I have to Cure-bomb the tank. I had to solo a link. I had to go to beat the Jehovah's Witnesses with a baseball bat. Shit happens. Refreshes will be missed. Sometimes intentionally.
Of course I'm gonna run out of MP! Refresh only returns so much mana, even with Morrigan's robe and Duelist's chapeau! Convert is still on an 8+ minute timer even after merits! "I just finally ran dry! Woe is me! I guess I'm not fit for the front line! I guess I better go to the back line, where I can do the same, eventually!"
It's the perpetuation of that ridiculous myth(the one assuming we are an endless wellspring of mana), that gets us in trouble nowadays.
This is the one part I might actually agree with. If your Enfeebling spells aren't landing, you have bigger issues than wanting to front line. However, if you're maybe 1-2 on MAcc, it can possibly be an issue compensated for by armor and accessories, not necessarily needing wands and staves. Anything more than 1-3, and I'd have to agree that it might be better to concentrate on the casting.
This one is extremely subjective. You can be a stellar back line caster and still get bitched at because you didn't cast what and when someone thinks you should, let alone front line. I've been right about my priorities and sense of timing more than anyone else in any party or alliance has been mine.
This is simply where you use your best judgment.

Your overbearing assessment on good front line performance is not only dreamed, but more than a little obtuse and misleading.
And for the record, I will agree that any RDM should be smart to avoid Silence AoE... but then I agree more that every mage should be smart to carry echo drops on them. In which case I say "go for it." ;)
This sounds like an intriguing idea: convert Fast Cast to Haste? This could definately give Red Mages more incentive to diversify and Melee occasionally.
Also, Enspell II: imbue the weapon so it gives a boost to spells of a corresponding element: the "Sword Antenna" logic. I've been of the strong opinion(like "Chuck Norris Roundhouse Kick to the face" strong), that the best combat related boosts RDM could possibly--and fittingly--receive, would be from passive-aggressive traits. Subtle Blow, Acc Bonus, Counter, Triple Attack(okay, the last one seems a stretch, but bear with me); traits that enhance the combat performance, in keeping with class lore(that of a "spellcasting fencer", light, lean, accurate attacks and parries), while taking care to avoid direct increases in damage(thusly not treading on dedicated DD's roles).


And you've already read my feelings on En-spells. Though the "Antenna" concept of a tier 2 sounds tasty.

That last bullet statement. Its gonna happen no matter what.

Nope. Most parties hate to bug the RDM, unless the RDM is seriously messing up. (Like I did when fighting unexpected monster with self buffs I wasn't familiar with, so wasn't dispelling. >_>; In my defense I was busy trying to keep people alive, but not using Dispel when I should is a mark against me.)

10sec haste/refresh one; There are times when even on back lines its gonna happen, either due to sleep/pulling or recovering from massasive spike dmg.
If the camp is dangerous there could be emergencies, it makes even more sense to get out of the front line to make sure you have MP reserve, no?

You'e bashing one thing rdms want to do, which is the one job wars only do.
I thought what every RDM wants to do is to be an asset to the party?

In any case, I've melee'ed in a few exp parties before. (Surprised?) A particular one comes to mind: there was a great tank, another RDM, and bunch of Colibri which we were afraid to cast spells on. (Both of us forgot we can erase or -na whatever enfeebles we use.) We got bored, and started using our swords. >_>

Obviously, all the mage stuff were well covered (to the point of overlapping Cure, Refresh, and Haste), sans the enfeebs.

If I do that party over again, I'd rather enfeeble then erase/na than bring more gears for melee'ing; the combined output of the RDMs were laughable. :biggrin: (Then again, I'd also get rid of the other RDM, and add a different job. My RDM in party is good enough. >_> <_<; )

From a DD stand point of view, RDM's melee dmg output only fits in support damage



This reminds me of something I've been wondering. Exactly how does one tier damage?

When referring to RDM damage dealing, we are often berated, or dismissed, as even our best output "pales to a dedicated DD." But compared to whom?

My average damage obviously pales before WAR, MNK, DRK, DRG has been known to keep up with Theives and PLDs, barring Weapon Skill numbers.

So what are we comparing it to? If we're constantly gonna be compared to the likes of the former four, then we should just hang up the chapeaus and rapiers.

Sorry for the late reply ( I was away ^^; )

I know each player's have different expectation of a DD. I will give my 2 gil~

For example:

If the DD is responsible for planting Hate on Tank (Trick Attack), I expect that, as soon as his Trick Attack timer is ready, his TP is 100+. And his WS must NOT sux.
If the DD can deal spike damage: If the mob needs to die now, the mob dies now. (What I mean is timing, for keeping exp. chain alive)
If the DD role is major DoT of the party, I expect high accuracy and each attack dmg is good and consistent. (according to the dmg formula)
If the DD is a dead-weight to the party (MP-stink or lack damage output, etc), he fails.Anything else, I consider as support damage.

There is nothing wrong with support damage. I am okay with that. If I am building a party and fill in jobs that comes with support damage, I expect them to share other role(s) as well.

No, not really. They're pretty unreasonable, actually.
Actually his list IS reasonable, because it IS possible to do everything he lists - and more.

RDM is last job to ever worry about AoE. Between Stoneskin, Phalanx, Protect/Shell, Bar-spells, Aquaveil, and optional shadows(Blink or Utsusemi), I /rofl everytime someone asks me to stay back for my safety. As if.

Odds are any AoE strong enough to tear through the RDM's defenses has already killed everyone else, so the RDM's frontline position is both moot and well-earned at that point.

I don't think anyone's saying you're going to just die if you run to toward a monster - unless it's a Goblin or a Bomb or something, but if I have the option of either taking hits to my Stoneskin or not taking hits and not having to spend MP to recast it and/or heal myself afterwards, I'll always pick not taking the damage.

My only caveat to your demand: "if you can't keep at least two protective buffs on yourself(re: Stoneskin/Phalanx), you should move to the black line."

And what's this about dropping Cures on yourself? That's the whole effing point! That's freaking magic of RDM! When he gets hit, you don't have to waste mana covering him! He does it himself! If I get hit, I better damn well Cure myself and then get right back at it!
Yes, but that takes away MP than you could be spending on more useful things - like keeping your party alive.


If I drop Refresh for more than ten seconds... yay me, I'm human. Something went wrong. I have to Cure-bomb the tank. I had to solo a link. I had to go to beat the Jehovah's Witnesses with a baseball bat. Shit happens. Refreshes will be missed. Sometimes intentionally.
Funny, I don't generally miss refreshes. Sometimes it happens, but very, very rarely. As in Refresh being down for a total of 60 seconds in a 2 hour XP session. Practice it enough and it becomes fairly second nature.

Of course I'm gonna run out of MP! Refresh only returns so much mana, even with Morrigan's robe and Duelist's chapeau! Convert is still on an 8+ minute timer even after merits! "I just finally ran dry! Woe is me! I guess I'm not fit for the front line! I guess I better go to the back line, where I can do the same, eventually!"

It's the perpetuation of that ridiculous myth(the one assuming we are an endless wellspring of mana), that gets us in trouble nowadays.
This is an incorrect assumption. We don't have "endless" mana, but it is certainly possible to get awfully darned close.

I do no resting when playing RDM in merit parties. I'm casting spells 100% of the time, and yet I don't run out of MP in my merit parties that get effectively infinite XP chains.

I'll take a screenshot of an XP chain next time I'm in a party and show you.

This is the one part I might actually agree with. If your Enfeebling spells aren't landing, you have bigger issues than wanting to front line. However, if you're maybe 1-2 on MAcc, it can possibly be an issue compensated for by armor and accessories, not necessarily needing wands and staves. Anything more than 1-3, and I'd have to agree that it might be better to concentrate on the casting.
No one cares much about whether Slow or Paralyze land on first try, but failing Silence or Sleep is going to cost you. Even with Silence, I have the worst time trying to nail down Mamool Ja Blusterers even with a staff and 3 levels of Wind Accuracy merits plus 8 levels of Enfeebling merits. There's no way a sword-wielding RDM is going to do any better than I am, and my hit rate isn't much better than maybe 60% as it is, which means even despite all I can do, Banishga III or the odd tier III elemental -ga still manages to land on my party from time to time - but a good solid number of them don't because I'm watching for exactly that.

Your overbearing assessment on good front line performance is not only dreamed, but more than a little obtuse and misleading.
He's not wrong. It IS possible to do everything he's saying, and then some.

You say that caster-advocates are delusional because they aspire to be perfect casters with effectively limitless MP.

I'm telling you that this is a worthy goal, and completely possible - I do it every single time I go out for a merit party.


Icemage

IceMage appears to have dove into the dark side of mage jobs....
*forms a picket to encourages mages returning to the light side*

IceMage appears to have dove into the dark side of mage jobs....
*forms a picket to encourages mages returning to the light side*
I would say, on average, that I have about 200-300MP left during a decent Convert cycle (8:20) if nothing horrible happens during that cycle. Enough for me to toss out at least one Blizzard III and still have enough to cast a last minute Haste or Refresh.

I keep:
- Refresh on myself and any other casters on at all times (usually there's at least one aside from myself, be it a BRD/WHM or something else).
- Haste on all melees at all times (usually 3).
- Protectra II/Shellra II on entire party every 30 minutes
- Reraise on myself once per hour
- Regen on all melees at all times unless they're full
- Stoneskin on myself before Convert (once every 8:20)

I'm on call at any time to cast Gravity, Erase, Poisona, Paralyna, Blindna, Silena, Dispel, Silence, Sleep, or Sleep II. I also like dropping Dia II on particularly difficult enemies like Skoffin or Mamool Ja Lurkers. Cures are always the highest priority. I keep all melees out of yellow or lower HP at all times.

On average, this sees me casting one spell roughly every five to ten seconds, and the trick is sliding in the big expenses (Reraise, Protectra II, Shellra II, Blizzard III) in between the budget for all the rest of the regular cycle. There is literally no time where I can sit down and rest - as soon as one spell is done, I'm already mentally preparing my next two or three spells, and will only interrupt them if something of high priority arises (melee taking damage, Wind Wall/Protect, Warm-Up, etc.).

If I can do it and still have MP to spare, so can someone else. And when a melee-focused RDM can say they can break 25K+/hr in XP consistently the way my parties normally do, then perhaps we can talk about the performance tradeoffs.


Icemage

RDM is last job to ever worry about AoE. Between Stoneskin, Phalanx, Protect/Shell, Bar-spells, Aquaveil, and optional shadows(Blink or Utsusemi), I /rofl everytime someone asks me to stay back for my safety. As if.
Odds are any AoE strong enough to tear through the RDM's defenses has already killed everyone else, so the RDM's frontline position is both moot and well-earned at that point.
The condition I set was being able to keep up these buffs. If a RDM can't, and is eating AoE damage, then he fails.

You've completely misunderstood what I wrote.



If I drop Refresh for more than ten seconds... yay me, I'm human. Something went wrong. I have to Cure-bomb the tank. I had to solo a link. I had to go to beat the Jehovah's Witnesses with a baseball bat. Shit happens. Refreshes will be missed. Sometimes intentionally.
Read what I wrote again; did it say drop Refresh once and you're out?

And, if you have have be on your toe to handle emergencies like links, wouldn't it make more sense to rest for MP than melee if you're not casting spells? (I'd thought that would be common sense.)



Of course I'm gonna run out of MP! Refresh only returns so much mana, even with Morrigan's robe and Duelist's chapeau! Convert is still on an 8+ minute timer even after merits! "I just finally ran dry! Woe is me! I guess I'm not fit for the front line! I guess I better go to the back line, where I can do the same, eventually!"
It's the perpetuation of that ridiculous myth(the one assuming we are an endless wellspring of mana), that gets us in trouble nowadays.
In a well functioning merit party, I often go from Convert to Convert with no rest, and with just one or two short MP rest for the most part if I do rest. No, I'm not a perfect player with great gear--not even one piece of Auto Refresh.

Not a one time fluke, either.

A good merit party does not stop for my MP, because there is no reason to--I do my best to make sure my MP last from Convert to Convert.



This one is extremely subjective. You can be a stellar back line caster and still get bitched at because you didn't cast what and when someone thinks you should, let alone front line. I've been right about my priorities and sense of timing more than anyone else in any party or alliance has been mine.
This is simply where you use your best judgment.
If you only trust your judgment, how would you know if you're wrong? Other people yelling at you is an indication that you may not be doing as well as you thought.

For me, 90% of the time when party members is asking/reminding/demanding something, it did turn out I was not doing something as well as I should. (There are idiots who demand Haste when I'm bleeding MP from curing him and other idiots up front, but that's actually pretty rare.)

Your overbearing assessment on good front line performance is not only dreamed, but more than a little obtuse and misleading.
Wyvern has small but consistent damage capability compared to most other "pets". And, it's mostly melee'ing.

Why would asking a RDM to fufill mage duty and do at least as much damage as a (lowly) wyvern's output be "misleading"? :rolleyes:

I was thinking if a RDM does less than that, he might as well not bother. If he does more, then, yes, he would be helping with the kill speed significantly enough to warren a spot up front. Hardly unreasonable.

Edit:

And what's this about dropping Cures on yourself?
... No one should have to explain this...

Anyway, as Icemage says, MP you used to cure yourself is MP you're not using to Haste/Refresh/Enfeeb, or, cure other people.

Heck, even after Convert, I don't cure myself to full, preferring to slowly Regen and/or Drain my way back to full HP before Convert comes up again.

IceMage appears to have dove into the dark side of mage jobs....
*forms a picket to encourages mages returning to the light side*

I don't really mind caster RDM as long as I'm not main healing to the point where I should be playing more as a support mage.

Main healing is always optional; decline party invitations unless you get a healer with it, or go static with a WHM.

I'll say this for those RDMs who wish to melee; with a WHM in party, the odds of being productive with a sword improve dramatically, since the burden of curing should be lowered by Flash and higher tier regens, and with the WHM easily picking up most of the leftover cures.

A good WHM in party definitely lessens the amount of cure casting needed. That'd be more time for swords, though it still won't solve the problem of TP saving when elmental staves and INT/MND wands are needed to land spells.

* * *

There was time (before my RDM's training time) when RDMs supposedly rested while WHM had MP and was curing, for the purpose of building MP to magic bursts. That required skillchains, of course, which are pretty rare these days.

However--not that I would bet money on it--Skillchain may be making a (minor) comeback.

I had one Troll exp/merit party with SC+MB; shockingly enough, it was a melee who suggested it to the BLM leader, as a dragged out Troll fight often involved too many Diamonhides for chaining. Tons of fun--and a few skill ups for my RDM.

More recently, my SCH actually landed in a ~Lv.30 JP party the other day, and the party leader actually asked "What should we do for renkei?" (In Japanese.)

I was stunned. ._. New-ish people, asking for SC instead of PL?! Took me a bit to shake off the paralysis, but I did find them two SC's they could use:

Double Trust > (SATA) Fast Blade :: Distortion
Tachi Enpi > Blade: Retsu :: Distortion

Some of the members were obviously new and rather unskilled. (I think the THF messed up SATA more than succeeded--brought back fond memory of my own noob THF days.) Still, we had quite a few Distortions, and nearly as many MBs.

Fun fun fun!

* * *

No offense to the melee happy RDMs, but I think MB is more interesting than swinging swords.

MB is something that requires good concentration and fairly precise timing for a few seconds, then I can slip back into the more mundane non-stop buff/enfeeb casting mode, unlike the constant distraction that is switching between melee and spell gear.

Plus, at pre-staves levels, a Distortion MB window at the start of the fight was a great way to make sure Paralyze lands!

An exceptional rdm would open a sc then start casting the mb spell ;3
Go go rdm Evis mb Blizz 3 for 700~ ;3

Just a question for all these 'exceptional' Rdm who don't need staves and like to melee in exp... where's your mistletein (sp?) and nmn shield for your enfeebles or do they also go by the wayside?

Just a question for all these 'exceptional' Rdm who don't need staves and like to melee in exp... where's your mistletein (sp?) and nmn shield for your enfeebles or do they also go by the wayside?
You mean Misericorde (http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Misericorde) and Numinous Shield (http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Numinous_Shield)?

Mistilleinn and Nmn Shield.. I still can't type it.. not Misericorde. The +10 Int/Mnd club used to get really strong procs on enfeebles where accuracy is no longer an issue.

An exceptional rdm would open a sc then start casting the mb spell ;3
Go go rdm Evis mb Blizz 3 for 700~ ;3

Actually the exceptional ones can MB off of SCs they close. :P I can nail everything but Thunder 3 like that, gogo max FastCast!

Mistilleinn and Nmn Shield.. I still can't type it.. not Misericorde. The +10 Int/Mnd club used to get really strong procs on enfeebles where accuracy is no longer an issue.
True, but club is lower than sword on skill rating, and staffs I found from testing solo in sky are better to land a spell with proc rate with enfeebling/int/mnd setup than the int/mnd dual wand setup with the same gear.

Plus, moon light and star light aren't exactly worth while ws at those levels. And you wouldn't get the almighty Hexa Strike or lolBlack Halo.
------------------------------------------
Actually the exceptional ones can MB off of SCs they close. :P I can nail everything but Thunder 3 like that, gogo max FastCast!
Yar, I find it hard to close light and mb it with whm and Banish 3 ;x
Take away fast cast, both are near the same casting time XD

Who said anything about not swapping back to swords for sub-par melee damage? Was just clarifying that gimping spells is acceptable if you're advocating Rdm Melee DD. Which you did.

I'd not melee with a club on Rdm, but if I needed to land enfeebles and had an assured accuracy rate - I'd use the listed to get the best effect.

I know rdm roles are pretty much enfebble, refresh, and back-up heal; but I am wondering if rdm(in a typical party set-up) could ever be used as a DD?
If you have to ask whether a job can DD or not, you probably don't know how to make it work in a DD situation anyway.

I am trying to figure out what sub I want to use for blu but I don't want to lvl thf or nin and don't want to just refresh and enfeeble .
If you view taking one single job from 1 to 37 as too much work, then I'm guessing that properly gearing up your RDM to do both DD and mage duty to be too much work as well.

It takes a grand total of 143,250 exp to get from 1 to 37 on a job. That's less than what it's going to take to get BLU from 71 to 75.

On the bright side, if you solo, you can sub whatever you want.

Hey, I am just wondering, where is the OP feedback on this ^^? The OP disappeared =P

*We don't bite*

Go go rdm Evis mb Blizz 3 for 700~ ;3

Umm... What I wrote was:
Plus, at pre-staves levels, a Distortion MB window at the start of the fight was a great way to make sure Paralyze lands!
No Blizzard III in those levels, I'm afraid.

The decision to nuke or enfeeble on MB comes down to how well the enfeebles are landing and how much MP one has at the moment. If a low level RDM is low on MP at the start of the fight, I expect him to enfeeble quickly, then sit back down to recharge MP. (Same for high level RDM, really, except taking into account of Convert.)

In any case, if I'm permitted to assume melee RDM would have more MP problems (e.g. /NIN support job, more recast due to resists and partial resists, less MP rest time), then wouldn't it be smarter to take advantage of early MB opportunity to land enfeebs to make the best use of their more limit mana supply?

(Obviously, an SC toward the end of the fight or a RDM more MP means one can get better millage out of nukes on MB instead.)

Way to quote me out of context >_>
fail!
Someone take away Itzura's rdm license

I thought you were responding to my MB comments, guess not?

Wasn't intentionally trying to misinterpret your words. <_<

No Blizzard III in those levels, I'm afraid.

No Evisceration in those levels, either. Ergo, he wasn't talking about those levels, he was talking about 71+!

Way to make a moot point!

No Evisceration in those levels, either. Ergo, he wasn't talking about those levels, he was talking about 71+!
Way to make a moot point!
Yellow Mage obtains a pair of YM's Tights.

Sorry, I didn't know what "Evis" was until Yellow Mage spelled it out; kinda just ignored that part. Was looking at "mb" part and scratching my head why he would respond to my post with "Blizz 3".

(Hey, at least I figured out what's "Blizz 3".)

Edit:
Anyway, as I said, it wasn't intentional. Apologies again for misinterpretation.

Sorry, I didn't know what "Evis" was until Yellow Mage spelled it out; kinda just ignored that part. Was looking at "mb" part and scratching my head why he would respond to my post with "Blizz 3".
(Hey, at least I figured out what's "Blizz 3".)
Edit:
Anyway, as I said, it wasn't intentional. Apologies again for misinterpretation.
d'oh!
Well gues we're lucky you figured out the Blizz 3 part :P
more or less
IfritnoItazura obtains a Mithran Beach Tabard.

i love this topc its my favorite thing to talk about as a RDM (which just dinged 69 last night, i hate having to make new accounts :( )

first off DD as a rdm should not take place from level 32- at least 65(still pushing it)

i say 65 because of the enfeebling torqu provided you can obtain one, with my gear set up mostly +MND and AF, Enfeebling torque

Cobra pichages
red cape +1
aquamarine ring
devotees mitts
forget my earings geist maybe and some other one
ring that adds int/mnd +3 garrolous (might be the str/agi)
and AF body pants hat

i have no trouble at all landing enfeebles without staves, even on imps when i eat some goblin mushpot, i can land all enfeebs withexception of silence regularily

as for the OP at hand rdm DD is entirley feasible without the gear setups that only the rich can buy, myself when i do melee i simply put on my attack + gear and gat some sushi i hit very consistently on Colbri and they dont like me using daggers, usually go kidney dagger/ ww anealace (for added atk+). When im able to get miserchorde+1 and the Joytoy ill rock it until i get either blau or mandau(ya right ><).

anyhow in colbri parties where their is a whm or another rdm it can get really boring just hasteing/refreshing and sitting back watching the PLD tank cure himself and others to hold hate, or watch the ninja let hate fly all over and somehow still toss out only the occaisional cure, what im trying to say as a rdm colbri camps suck, casting on t mob is a waste of time seeing as they reflect your crap back to the party.

So i decided to rock my melee for a while regardless of how the party felt about it

my equipment was
Fang Necklace
Fang Earrings
Sword Belt
some ba peice that adds attack and acc forget name but its lvl 67 i think
those level 14 dex+2 rings
and AF everything else
and sushi

my attack ratting was at 229 which is ok with me

anyhow pt was nin,thf,drk,sam,rdm,rdm

so i figured i could melee without issue, which was the case.
essentially our party went much quicker than having 2 mages on backline battling for who was going to cast spells first, having me on the front line allowed for more skillchains via the sam, and with the thf sataing the ninja rarely was hate bounced around. The end resault, minus Satas and WS's in base damage with my enspell on i out damaged oth the theif and ninja.

I also learned something valuable from this experience, cyclone is disgusting if you use it in safe areas, 396 damage @ 200% on the colbri which was more damage than ive ever nuked for on rdm. i also learned how to melee at higher levels, and unfourtunatley its changed since last time i was here, apparently melee dont know skillchains, guess thats why i always have to tell people what to do on my BLM, common NA no wonder JP players dont want to party with us.

On that note i was in a JP colbri party with a PLD,THF,DNC,BRD,WHM,RDM
and was told i was invited soleley be melee and to WS as often as i could with the THF or PLD, again i found myself out DDing the THF and even tanked a bird when i stepped in path of sata (i <3 SS+Phalanx) all in all i learned that RDM properly equipped is nothing to scoff at damage wise.

The reason its frowned upon is because not many people can or will take the effort to do it correctly, and effectivley. Some bad... all bad players ruin our jobs immage to the community and hurt our good players images, thankfully i PT exclusivley with JP parties now and they recognize potential of everything, and know every detail about this game as opposed to NA players. Otherwise you can find me soloing mobs in campaign rdm/blm in full melee setup waiting for the day i can get a SH,PCC, and some hats and evisceration (drool).

P.S. im hungover and dont remeber what we were supposed to talk about hope this was it, im going to get a beer later guys.

As mentioned previously in this thread, Colibri are the rare exception that allow RDM to melee. They don't have AoEs, they're weak to RDM's best weapon type (dagger/Joyeuse), you can't cast on them without having your enfeebles and nukes bounced back.

Extending this definition beyond this one creature type, however, is a very bad idea. Most critters aren't so friendly, and are much more vulnerable to enfeebles.

This is one of the rare instances where I think RDM/NIN actually shines in an XP party, as you actually have a use for Utsusemi: Ichi (forget that flawed comment about SS + Phalanx above, where were your shadows?). As long as you cast before the first Provoke or Flash, you can shadow-blink away a single enfeeble (Paralyze is a good bet, or Dia II if you're SURE you can cast it before voke/flash) before hate bounces around.


Icemage

ya i dont use shadows to much, when i melee mobs with AoE whats the point i jut flush money down the drain since it rip all shadows apart, at least SS+Phalanx reduces all dmg to 0 AoE or not.

on cobri i do but still SS+Phalanx isnt hat bad i have a pretty good length on them both (longer than shadows) and know a trick to keep my SS up indefinitly,

in terms of other mobs we can melee on your correct colbri is an exception along with anything else that has wings or is weak to peircing which is a fair amount of mobs. more so than slashing.

and yes it is possible to land fast cast enfeebs on the colbri however i generally dont take the chance unless i follow it up with a quick cure to erase the enfeeb.

Dia II is usually OK to cast on Colibri for RDM/WHM.

If it bounce back, Stoneskin will handle it. If it lands on a melee or tank, odds are they have Utsusemi. If not, a quick Erase will do the job.

Slow is good to use as well, as long as the tank has Haste. If anyone else gets hit by parroted Slow, just Haste the person if he isn't already on Haste.


* * *

NIN tanks may complain if you bounce more than one or two spells at them, though, eating up copy images. PLD tanks will be unhappy if Paralyze caused them to miss up Cures or something, but Dia, Poison, etc. won't kill them, and all can be removed easily enough.

Otherwise, pre-meriting it's OK to enfeeb those suckers a bit. In very smooth flowing merit parties, I try to cast Dia II on Greater Colibris to improve kill speed, but usually can't spare the MP to do more than that.

* * *

If a RDM wants to rely on Utsusemi for handling parroted enfeebs, he's pretty much volunteering to pull. Not exactly a bad idea for Colibri, if there's WHM or SMN in party.

I would order it as Paralyze > Slow > Sleep (at camp), since Paralyze would be the most troublesome if it lands on the RDM, so want to do it when copy images are sure to be up. (Let the Colibri cast both Paralyze and Slow before sleeping it, of course.)

Doobity doo...I guess I'll toss in some input as to how I do it since I'm the one who says it's so easy...I don't use windower macros, so I have to be a tad tricky with my swaps.

First off, I know it's situational. More often than not I end up in a LS party with BRD RDM WHM, so I'm not responsible for main healing, and only half a Haste cycle.

The two most important enablers to me meleeing are 1) having my non-variable potency buffs(Refresh, Regen, Haste) on <st> macros, so that I can easily cast them on party members while engaged on an enemy; and 2) having my spell macros swap in the skill+ pieces for enf/ele/dark/enh, then swapping back my ChivChain/Hollow Earring as my base neck/left earring. This makes sure that I always have a decent Acc boost while idle(having extra MP in those slots would be useless to me, as they would just be swapped out when I cast a debuff/buff/nuke, I have mp pieces for my Convert Macro in those slots.

Otherwise I swap in a pretty full DD set, I play on console so I need to use 2 macros to get the full set in:
Joyeuse or ESword
Genbu's Shield
Optical Hat
Chivalrous Chain
Hollow Earring
Fenrir's Earring
Pahluwhan Khazagand
Tarasque Mitts
Ruby Ring
Woodsman Ring
Amemet Mantle +1
Potent Belt
Duelist's Tights
Ogre Ledlesens
2 other important notes: First, I really never use /NIN if I intend to melee, Stoneskin+Blink is plenty enough damage mitigation in a normal party with the amount of hate you'll pull, and Vorpal Blade is too nice to give up. I would much rather take /DRK or to a lesser extent /WAR and retain more utility than Utsusemi. Secondly, if you want to melee as RDM, you can't half-ass it. You either do it well or don't attempt it. This means Sole Sushi(yes, not Squid, you need the STR), add in a large chunk of Accuracy gear, and pump some merits into sword.

In terms of casting keeping you from meleeing, really the best thing you can do is switch to AF1Hat/AF2Body/Loq Earring if you have them all, but max your FastCast so that you get your buffs done faster.

A large focus should also be on your Enhancing Magic, when you buff yourself you want it as high as possible, seeing as how your enspells will be nearly half your damage. For the most part if I'm fighting a VT+, I go with Enblizzard regardless of day, as my added Ice Accuracy merits largely cut down on partial resists.

And I have no delusions that I should compare to the DDs in the party, if I were to parse withing 10% of a SAM, DRK, RNG, or other DD I'd kick them from the party for leeching XP...however, the supplemental damage from a RDM with a good hit%(85+) hitting WS' for 250-400 a pop can easily make the difference in getting that next chain when combined with 3 'real' DDs.

And for the love of feathered hats, I don't care what you're fighting, don't Convert next to the mob. Just don't do it.

And on that note, I just got called out for using the internet at work, gotta go! ^^;

ya i was shocked when my parse showed i had out dmaged ninjas and theifs in damage (excluding ws's and sata's) to tell the truth, im always shocked when i out damage melee on anything (see if i can find the parse crap on my comp to show you all)

when i was leveling my whm in kazham recently i was out damaging the 2 ninjas and the cor in my party and seraph strike was doubling up the rng and wars ws i was facinated until i found they were weak to light and it didnt seem so hot then :)

p.s. i paid a pl to main heal already did it on rdm mage round 2 no thanks spend my easily soloed gil from nm drops i <3 rdm we so god lol

No offense, but if your attention to Red Mage follows on your attention to punctuation and spelling (and please don't pull the English is a second language card - all languages use punctuation, and all the languages I've studied used capitalisation), then I would seriously consider the majority of your boasts, just that - boasts (with no grounding in reality).

Either that - or post your Thf's gearsets (with pictures or it didn't happen)- as to be honest, there is no way a Rdm with a grand and epic (fail) total of 229 attack should be outdamaging anyone on any exp mob at 60+.

Why can I say this with some certainty...? Well.. a minor detail called level correction and pDif. And how do I know? Well - with my gimped 400 odd attack during the 60's, I was averaging 1 cRatio on most exp mobs (with neutral weapon types, weak ones I did more). Which equated to me doing pretty much the damage stated on the tin (on my weapons). Given that you're barely over half my attack, I see no way in hell you'd be outdamaging me even on Colibri mobs on Thf or any other DD job. Hence why the boast comment above.

Secondly - you're the reason why I'm so anti Rdm-DD. You half-arse it. Level 14 Dex Rings? Get out. You're not out-damaging a Wyvern or jug pet, let alone a moderately geared DD. And unless your party sucks to the ninth level of hell and back, you're parses and your posts are lying. I had some Thf gear on when I tried my Rdm damage, and while I outparsed a badly geared Thf (he had your gear setup that you boasted about out DD'ing on), I wouldn't come close to a moderately geared one.

I could almost start to believe that some Rdm might be capable of warranting not being on a back line, but they are fewer and further between than I'd care to measure. I'd rather aim to be a great backliner akin to Icemage and others, than to fail at both. If you're going to pretend to be a DD, don't come telling people who know better, that you can acheive it with a setup that would make any genuine DD laugh at you with derision.

while i accept your criticism, i must inform you i dont often melee hell i never do outside of soloing this gear is mostly for campaign, minus the dex rings they were all i had at the time and wasnt going to go shopping for DD RDM equipment wheni dont use it. Perhaps the THF, and NIN were badly equipped i imagine the NIN was they are lazy enough as it is. I said i out damaged them swinging which i did, but there WS's blew my damage down to piddle shit. On average my dagger was hiting for 20-30 and would crit fairly ofter for 40-60, my off hand was hitting for 30-40 and would crit 60-80 including the enblizzard on both for an extra 28 damage as it was seldom resisted. The reason i was mentioning this was to show RDM numbers are not that much worse than some minor DD's, can i parse to a war drg sam drk hell no, but can i open WS for them so they can close heavier you bet your ass i can. Which leads me to another thing parse's dont take credit in for you lowering resistance to a closing WS that extra damage those jobs do gets tacked onto them not RDM.
\
*added*

As for RDM DD i agree with you many do half ass it, i myself just did it for something to do, i wasnt there for glory i was boerd out of my skull from lame colbri fights. If i geared for it i would have had a SH PCC and woodsman rings amongst other thing is i dont melee i dont like to id rather have complete control of every aspect from the backline as a god-like general. Boasting yes maybe i am, shitty equipment yes it was, half assing my job never.

*/end add*

On the note of judging my punctation and grammar, frankly i dont give a damn, evidently it did not affect your ability to read it and reply to it did it. hmmm. clearly not.

Haha, I didn't see the post below mine at first, I was like 229~ Attack and Lv. 14 DEX rings, are you high?

And - again I'm going to call you out with your laughable 229 attack and landing 30 damage a hit. You're lying. Melee cRatio works well enough for everyone else - except you it seems. Why do I know you're lying? Because I've played Thf and Nin through those levels with enough attack to get 30 a hit and 60 crits (off ~30 damage weapons). And it wasn't 229. Hence my previous post.

Going to do a BG and call POID at this point.

Yes - I could read your post, gave me a headache though trying to decipher it, and my point stands. If you aren't willing to put the effort into typing out a little post, how are you going to put the effort into your job to do it properly? Especially if you are lying so blatantly about your damage (which you are as there is no way you can perform the way you say you are with the stats you're reporting).

hmmm guess i just like to lie then even when i plug my stats into a damage calcutator it says 17-34 damage from my weaker wapon and 28-45 for my stronger 1 i must be lying, hell maybe ill even find exact stats on colbri and factor in pericing damage too maybe itll be more, i mean colbri nt no 75 mobs and sure as hell dosent have high def to melee and is most certainly weak to peircing, maybe i really dont know how to read numbers and such, maybe its just the fact you dont want to beleive it, hmm i dunno maybe ill hop on game and give you my stats so you can check it yourself i dunno maybe that might shut you up ill be back with them
------------------------------------------
oh crap guess im in the wrong and cant acctually read numbers my atk is 339 not 229 *slaps his own face* well im sorry i feel like a douche now

If there is a BRD in the Colbri party and the RDM is taking the Melee Songs... maybe the damage output from the RDM is decent.

Seriously, if MP is not a concern in the Colbri burn party, I would ask the RDM to melee.

If there is a BRD in the Colbri party and the RDM is taking the Melee Songs... maybe the damage output from the RDM is decent.

Seriously, if MP is not a concern in the Colbri burn party, I would ask the RDM to melee.
On just Colibri, I agree.

Don't try that jazz on Mamool Ja, though.


Icemage

lol colbri are the exception for anyone to melee on ive even seen whm come down for some staff action a nice whiff fest but its better than sitting on your ass watching the grass grow

I attempted DD RDM last night! Sort of. Invite from a WHM to Greater Colibri camp.

I was skeptical, but desperate for limit points. Just before I step on the pad to teleport to staging point, the leader (WHM) asked if it would be a bad setup with WHM and RDM, and whether he should switch to BRD or THF.

Told him BRD would be best, but he replied he didn't have /NIN ready. I told him even Utusemi: Ichi would be good; heck, BRD/WHM + RDM would be better than RDM + WHM. He was still reluctant; turned out he hated the job. XD

Didn't have to heart to make this nice WHM switch to BRD, but I didn't want to leech, either. So, compromise: I take a shot at DD RDM.

DD gears (when not casting spells):
Optical Hat
Joyeuse
Tariqah (Shield; Acc+4, Eva+4)
Scorpion Harness
Life Belt

DD Merits
Sword Skill (4)

Food:
Squid Sushi

Support Job:
/DRK

All in all, pretty badly geared for a DD; I forgot my Accuracy+ rings and Attack+ back piece, but even if I had them, I'd be still way low on attack and somewhat short on accuracy. Eating Squid Sushi helped a lot, but didn't exactly make me a real swordsman.

Having not melee'd in exp party since Lv.20-something, I was basically fumbling through the first half of the party. I had two Haste, two Refresh, backup heal, and back up sleep duties. WHM was pulling. ._.

Did about 8.86% of total damage. 72.13% accuracy; pretty low by merit party standards. Enblizzard was heavily but inconsistantly resisted; added up to be 1.4% of total damage output of the party.

I'd sum up my performance as a minor kill speed boost.

Notes:

Mid party, we changed tank and DDs, making more detailed comparisons hard to make. Generally speaking, my RDM/DRK out damaged DRG's Wyvern by more than two to one, in fights I can melee. So, if Wyvern's damage was considered useful, mine should have been doubly so?
Out damaged our PLD--but he was actually our WAR. When the NIN left, he was sent home to change in a hurry. Not sure if he had a better set up he could've brought if he had time to mule.
Couldn't melee in every fight. Multiple links and adds happen at times, and I couldn't afford the distraction of melee'ing during those. Sword away, staves out. I also did not Convert near the party if it's fighting something--call it survival instinct.
I did crowd control poorly, and the WHM died once because of it. Switching between melee'ing and crowd control smoothly requires practice and vigilance--and proper macro with <stnpc> instead of <t>.
Vorpal Blade with Souleater (and Stoneskin) is fun; managed to hit 491 once. Barely avoided losing my sushi a few times, though. This is not doable with out another mage--it eats straight through Stoneskin, and may require much extra curing if left on for a few attack rounds after.
Didn't track exp/hour, but I think it wasn't too great. Part of it was the lack of BRD or COR or "extra DD", part of it was that some of the DDs in party weren't very good at all.
As much fun as it was, I wouldn't recommend RDM/DRK for melee'ing in exp parties to most people. Even at Colibri camp.
However, if someone is determined to try, the minimum requirement should be: Joyeuse, sushi, and at least Accuracy+40 from equipment. Preferably more accuracy. A lot more. Some Attack+ gear would be nice, too. (You don't want to suck more than I did. >_> )
Shouldn't have to mention this, but bring mage gear, too. Need the MP+ for convert, Light Staff for heavy curing, and Dark Staff for hMP and crowd control, etc. No, you're not supposed to have 10 spaces for holding Wind Crystals and Colibri beaks.
No, I didn't meet the minimum requirement I set. I had intended to, but was in too much of a rush, and forgot some gear. ◀/sigh▶

I attempted DD RDM last night! Sort of. Invite from a WHM to Greater Colibri camp.

I was skeptical, but desperate for limit points. Just before I step on the pad to teleport to staging point, the leader (WHM) asked if it would be a bad setup with WHM and RDM, and whether he should switch to BRD or THF.

Told him BRD would be best, but he replied he didn't have /NIN ready. I told him even Utusemi: Ichi would be good; heck, BRD/WHM + RDM would be better than RDM + WHM. He was still reluctant; turned out he hated the job. XD

Didn't have to heart to make this nice WHM switch to BRD, but I didn't want to leech, either. So, compromise: I take a shot at DD RDM.

DD gears (when not casting spells):
Optical Hat
Joyeuse
Tariqah (Shield; Acc+4, Eva+4)
Scorpion Harness
Life Belt

DD Merits
Sword Skill (4)

Food:
Squid Sushi

Support Job:
/DRK

All in all, pretty badly geared for a DD; I forgot my Accuracy+ rings and Attack+ back piece, but even if I had them, I'd be still way low on attack and somewhat short on accuracy. Eating Squid Sushi helped a lot, but didn't exactly make me a real swordsman.

Having not melee'd in exp party since Lv.20-something, I was basically fumbling through the first half of the party. I had two Haste, two Refresh, backup heal, and back up sleep duties. WHM was pulling. ._.

Did about 8.86% of total damage. 72.13% accuracy; pretty low by merit party standards. Enblizzard was heavily but inconsistantly resisted; added up to be 1.4% of total damage output of the party.

I'd sum up my performance as a minor kill speed boost.

Notes:

Mid party, we changed tank and DDs, making more detailed comparisons hard to make. Generally speaking, my RDM/DRK out damaged DRG's Wyvern by more than two to one, in fights I can melee. So, if Wyvern's damage was considered useful, mine should have been doubly so?
Couldn't melee in every fight. Multiple links and adds happen at times, and I couldn't afford the distraction of melee'ing during those. Sword away, staves out. I also do not Convert near the party if it's fighting something--call it survival instinct.
I did crowd control poorly, and the WHM died once because of it. Switching between melee'ing and crowd control smoothly requires practice and vigilance--and proper macro with <stnpc> instead of <t>.
Vorpal Blade with Souleater (and Stoneskin) is fun; managed to hit 491 once. Barely avoided losing my sushi a few times, though. This is not doable with out another mage--it eats straight through Stoneskin, and may require much extra curing if left on for a few attack rounds after.
Didn't track exp/hour, but I think it wasn't too great. Part of it was the lack of BRD or COR or "extra DD", part of it was that some of the DDs in party weren't very good at all.
As much fun as it was, I wouldn't recommend RDM/DRK for melee'ing in exp parties to most people. Even at Colibri camp.
However, if someone is determined to try, the minimum requirement should be: Joyeuse, sushi, and at least Accuracy+40 from equipment. Preferably more accuracy. A lot more. Some Attack+ gear would be nice, too. (You don't want to suck more than I did. >_> )
Shouldn't have to mention this, but bring mage gear, too. Need the MP+ for convert, Light Staff for heavy curing, and Dark Staff for hMP and crowd control, etc. No, you're not supposed to have 10 spaces for holding Wind Crystals and Colibri beaks.
No, I didn't meet the minimum requirement I set. I had intended to, but was in too much of a rush, and forgot some gear. ◀/sigh▶

Glad you had some fun with it at least. :thumbsup:

In terms of macros, I use <st> for all of my party buffs(Refresh/Haste/Regen/Cures/Pro/Shell) to make it easy to buff while swinging, but in terms of crowd control I honestly just use the menu and manually select Sleep > target. I wouldn't want to change my current Sleep macros to <st>'s as it would slow down my sleeping in non-melee situations.

And yeah, +40~ Acc is about the good zone for me not counting the sushi, my set gives +40 or +48 depending on which sword I use. I do prefer Sole when I can afford it just because of extra STR, there's alot of room to add more STR as RDM before you get anywhere close to capping fSTR.

The 2 most important things I can stress is that 1) you shouldn't expect to be a 'real' DD, it's about adding supplemental damage to help make the difference in keeping chains, and 2) if you really want to try it and not give yourself a bad name, you can't half-ass it. Pony up for some Acc/Atk/STR gear before you give it a shot, make sure your sword is skilled up, and if you can pump some merits into it.

Edit: Vs. Colibri I almost always go with Enblizzard due to both their native weakness to it as well as my Ice Accuracy merits, it gets resisted much less often than other enspells regardless of what day it is.

In terms of macros, I use <st> for all of my party buffs(Refresh/Haste/Regen/Cures/Pro/Shell) to make it easy to buff while swinging,
I have that. I also have Light Staff macro'ed for cures. The problem was, I didn't want to put Light Staff away, in case I need to switch to heavy curing mode.

Ibut in terms of crowd control I honestly just use the menu and manually select Sleep > target. I wouldn't want to change my current Sleep macros to <st>'s as it would slow down my sleeping in non-melee situations.
Well... My sleep macros are always on <stnpc> unless I need to sleepga charmed people. I only put that line in about <st...> for the benefit of other RDMs attempting this.

My trouble with crowd control was due to the lack of attention and anticipation. As I've written, melee'ing was a distraction. Needed to keep track of where the puller (WHM) was, and face camera to where he'll be, and don't have a lot of extra critters I have to switch through when I hit the sleep macro.

He usually pulled and Repose the critters nicely, so I let my guard down. Good thing he had Reraise III. >_>;

The 2 most important things I can stress is that 1) you shouldn't expect to be a 'real' DD, it's about adding supplemental damage to help make the difference in keeping chains,
And, don't let your ego get in the way--an average BRD or COR will do more for the party's damage output than a very well geared RDM's sword. Without another mage to watch of the party's HP bars, it's much better not to melee, unless you're really, really good at switching between tasks fast.

2) if you really want to try it and not give yourself a bad name, you can't half-ass it. Pony up for some Acc/Atk/STR gear before you give it a shot, make sure your sword is skilled up, and if you can pump some merits into it.
Totally agree here--don't even think about melee'ing in merit party without capped sword skill.

If I see a real DD with 72% accuracy like I had, I'd demand he stop using my merit time to skill up, and/or put on real DD gear. Or, I'd just ask the leader to replace that waste of party slot with any of ten other DDs seeking.

Some of you're gear, I'd think would improve if you change to the following for when DDing;
AF hands(+3dex, parrying when you get hate)
AF Feet(good for taking unexpected hits)
Warwolf Belt(Str + dex + vit > acc alone)
Snipers/Jeager's + Raja's or dex/str(Personally I'd take one acc and one stat ring to up the curve evenly)
Relic Legs(relic +4 dex, spikes effect, good ;3 )
Chiv chain
Suppa if you have it for sword, otherwise, moldy and atk earring
AF hat(I find it more worth while meleeing with it to cast when needed than macroing it in/out)
Amement Mantle+1 (No excuses, +1 or no DDing rdm)
Genbu's Shield(4acc of that tarque isn't that big of a deal imho and with /drk, -10% phys dmg taken is godly when you get hate @_@; )

Sword Choices:
I haven't gotten a joytoy yet so no comment on how that works yet. So going with what I've toyed around with;
Martial Anelace(TP bonus, yummy, helps make up for lack of dmg/acc)
Royal Guards Flueret(+6acc, low delay, acceptable dmg)
Dissector(+6% crit rate, awesome sauce)

Daggers
Hornetneedle(best high speed low dmg great to use with en-spelling, espically when single handling it)
Garuda's Dagger(great for uping dmg, but a little higher delay)
Martial Knife(see martial sword)

Enjoy.

I have that. I also have Light Staff macro'ed for cures. The problem was, I didn't want to put Light Staff away, in case I need to switch to heavy curing mode.

That's another thing I forgot to mention actually, I have an individual swap for each of my staves, to make sure I don't lose TP when casting spells, and I change staves as needed.


My trouble with crowd control was due to the lack of attention and anticipation. As I've written, melee'ing was a distraction. Needed to keep track of where the puller (WHM) was, and face camera to where he'll be, and don't have a lot of extra critters I have to switch through when I hit the sleep macro.

I can see that being an issue, I generally am the puller myself when I choose to melee. I usually use the menu to cast Slow on surrounding birds, adds a slight debuff and it won't do anything to me when cast back at me, I follow that up with Sleep. I tend to leave Stoneskin off and only use Blink, this way if they cast Sleep back after waking either it eats a shadow, or if it hits me they usually get 1 hit in on me before someone gets hate, waking me up, and a single Regen will fill me up again. Not to mention that Stoneskin is a long cast when you do cast it, and cuts out a fair # of possible swings if you keep it up constantly.


And, don't let your ego get in the way--an average BRD or COR will do more for the party's damage output than a very well geared RDM's sword. Without another mage to watch of the party's HP bars, it's much better not to melee, unless you're really, really good at switching between tasks fast.

Yeah, if I actually was intending to be a 'DD' I'd just go as COR where I can post 1k+ weaponskills without breaking a sweat. Then again I have a nice luxury of choosing between 3 jobs that can at times fill the same spot. :)

As far as gear, the most important pieces I can recommend in order of importance are: Paluwhan Body, Optical Hat, Amemet+1, and Potent Belt. For the neck it depends what you have to choose from really, I have a PCC but I tend to go with Chiv Chain still for the extra STR. Ogre Ledlesens are also a huge pickup for the price, a fat chunk of attack for like 5k gil in a slot where you really can't get anything useful. I currently use Tarasque Mitts, I personally feel that's the best buyable piece you can use in the hands slot, although I'll be using Goliard Cuffs as soon as I can get them.

The really tough choice slot is the earring, mainly due to choices in DM and AN. Suppa and Hollow both are fantastic melee earrings, however you can't neglect your actual magic, and Abysal, Magnetic, and Static Earrings are all great choices as well. I went with Abyssal and Hollow, as I frequently use Dark Magic, like the equivalent of a free Phantom+1 for debuffs, and nothing really compares to the Hollow earring for COR, not to mention my Enspells currently do 22 base damage without an Enhancing Sword or Fencer's Ring, 27 with ESword.

Weapons, I really have a tough time picking. I have some nice ones to choose from, lately I've been using Joy more, but deep down I love my ESword, it puts up nice #'s, it looks cool, and no matter what happens I know that I own something that was at one time worth 25m(14m when I got mine). As /WAR or /DRK I'd honestly use Justice Sword above anything else though(should be getting one soon pending on my lot luck) the ability for DA to proc during Vorpal Blade, while still keeping up with Joy TP-wise, and how easy it is to farm for stones as RDM makes it extremely appealing.

Edit: I suppose I should've included a sword option that wasn't hard to obtain, if I didn't have Joy/ESword I personally would go with a Company Fleuret, Verdun, or Guspiere for parties, Mensur Epee for solo. Aside from something with outstanding stats such as the ESword I'd stay away from swords w/ higher delay than the 224~ ones, the extra enspell hits will generally make up for the slight differences in base damage.

Warwolf Belt(Str + dex + vit > acc alone)

If you could 2 hand that rapier, I'd almost agree. I'd still say go with Lifebelt.

Amement Mantle+1 (No excuses, +1 or no DDing rdm)

It would take you hours of parsing to notice a difference between Amemet and it's +1 counterpart. I mean, I understand what you're getting at -- you have more ground to make up, and since you're carrying around so much gear, anyway, the more you can cram into a single slot, the better (wtg super-comma usage). However, to say "no excuse" is to go a bit far... Honestly, an akinji peti, lifebelt, etc... would do the trick. The only really costly investment should be acc rings (and for RDM meleeing, I think I'd take 'em over a Rajas, even).

Dedicating yourself to the pursuit of good RDM melee calls for lots of obscene things, but making an effective build to help contribute to kill speed (like Itazura's story) requires nothing of the sort. You're still helping out in such a situation...

Indeed, the worst thing about RDM melee is that, typically, it's a bandaid for sub-optimal conditions. Who plans for and hopes for sub-optimal?

Indeed, the worst thing about RDM melee is that, typically, it's a bandaid for sub-optimal conditions. Who plans for and hopes for sub-optimal?

Hoping for sub-optimal, of course not. Planning for it is entirely different, though, I believe you should always plan for sub-optimal conditions, and overdo it just in case shit comes into contact with a fan. I always plan to need to get a task done with the least amount of resources available, because I'm in a small linkshell with low #'s but talented players. We low-man many things, and many times me being able to put out a reasonable damage output without nuking makes a big difference. Sometimes we try to get things done outside of scheduled times to help the LS, or when less people are availabe to help, i.e. going up to Sky on during free time and duoing Diorites with a DRG/BLU, where me meleeing seriously speeds up the amount we can get through in a given amount of time.

Even when it comes to merits, 1) there just isn't always a BRD lfg, and 2) I really don't like partying in pickup groups anymore anyways, so we work with who we have online in LS at the time. Sometimes we field BRD WHM COR DDx3 and rape, sometimes we field BLU BLU DNC RDM RDM DRK and work with what we have, lol.

If you could 2 hand that rapier, I'd almost agree. I'd still say go with Lifebelt.

I still think that the 1 DEX = 1 Accuracy update should have been given to One-Handed weapons from the word go. I mean, that would have helped us a lot, and besides, I miss seeing jokes like "A DRK walks in to a bar . . . and misses."

If there is a BRD in the Colbri party and the RDM is taking the Melee Songs... maybe the damage output from the RDM is decent.

Seriously, if MP is not a concern in the Colbri burn party, I would ask the RDM to melee.

Often, though, RDM is called upon to be the sole healer of the PT in a colibri PT and as a BRD or COR, I can't tell you how irritating it is to watch someone get a buff I didn't intend for them. Both of those jobs are reliant on the cooperation of the party to stay divided in two parts unless there's a need on the frontline for what the backline gets (meaning PLD, BLU, DRK). And when that happens, even then I die a little on the inside because it also usually means lower EXP per hour.

But then, those are the players a COR and BRD look to a RDM to cover, I'd only consider MP buffing PLD, BLU and DRK if we didn't have a RDM. We're not passing the buck, its not that we don't want to refresh PLD, DRK and BLU, but that they can gain even greater benefit from melee buffs, which can also be buffs that support tanking and reduce damage taken.

Its not about RDM going "Oh, I'm fine, I can Refresh myself," its that you're slighting our role for your desires and diminishing the buff cycle, lowering party performance as a direct result. You might think its going fine, but I can very much feel the difference.

RDMs are expected to maintain thier refresh and haste cycles, CORs and BRDs prefer to maintain a four-buff cycle, generally a cycle that benefits both ends of the party directly.

But its the diva mentality that RDMs get (and to a even extent, BRDs) that makes them forget they're not the only ones that keep the party moving. Trust me, I've had high-chain PTs that get along just fine without a RDM, just like I've had them without a BRD and most people have them without CORs. Dispite conventional belief, there are plenty of WHMs out there on the top of thier game and can keep up with a fast pace merit PT so long as one of those jobs supports them full-time, I never underestimate that +hMP gear unless its a roaming PT, which are actually very rare PTs.

Everyone gives up a little something to be in a merit PT, too. Trust me, I hate subbing /NIN and I can feel the loss of performance for the sake of just not getting hit. I can't begin to count the MNKs and DRGs whose skin crawls the second they put on the NIN sub. Its supposed to be the bread and butter sub or RNG, but I've honestly come to like /SAM and /WAR a lot better.

RDM has a lot of opportunities to melee, its more to the end that mainstream EXP PTs just aren't that place and that's also the fastest place to get the EXP, particularly in ToA camps. Worse is that RDMs never consider the changes made to the game that actually have made melee more practical and available in the last year. Trust me, the signet update, the +hHP buff and elimination of TP loss while resting was not a change made for melees, BLUs and BSTs' sake, but RDM's as well. Not to mention the addition of DNC and SCH make smaller PTs more practical, once again opening up the opportunity to melee for RDM.

Then there's Campaign, depending on if your skills are capped, this could be another option to play it how you want.

But mainstream EXP PTs have been and always will be about getting EXP as fast as possible, by the most comfortable means possible. Just the way it is and there's nothing you can do to change it, especially when you partake of it regularly. Complain about it all you want, but as long as you conform and want that fast EXP, you're going to have to do things the way you don't like doing them, that or find a PT/static willing to do things your way. Believe me, that's extremely rare.

So to get what you want, you gotta take that invite flag down, really. That's a hard thing to do for the 41+ RDM, possibly harder than anything else.

It's pretty much assumed for those of us discussing this(those actually seriously discussing it, with the gear, experience, and skills to pull it off) that the RDM is not main healing. This is for the most part assuming that there's a WHM in the party, and that the RDM is either pulling or would have nothing to do outside of Refreshing/Hasting otherwise, which is not entirely uncommon, to see a setup along the lines of WHM RDM BRD/COR DDx3 on Colibri(if you think this would be a bad setup you haven't had much merit experience).

In this kind of setup, really the RDM is dead weight if they don't melee, seeing as how there is little else they can do to contribute. They would have 3-4/tick Refresh without the BRD/COR, while the WHM would easily have 6-8, so there'd be no reason to not be up front and getting Minuet instead of Ballad, because they really have more than enough MP to do what their current role in the party is almost indefinitely, barring some fights that for whatever reason get a little out of hand.

And yes, I can be a bit of a diva in regards to XP, but that's the price for having a good support role player in your party, the same reason I would give a bit of extra leeway to an Adaberk/Ridill WAR, you put up with certain things if you want to crank out the merits quickly.

When I saw the username Omgwtfbbqkitten, my skin crawled with the kind of the angry anti-frontline-RDM ranting I thought I'd be seeing. Much to my chagrin, it turned out to be a very logical, calm, collected, reasonable post.

Made a fool of me.

(Side note: you also just got my 1,000th Thanks!)

Some of you're gear, I'd think would improve if you change to the following for when DDing;
AF hands(+3dex, parrying when you get hate)
AF Feet(good for taking unexpected hits)
Sorry, but those aren't that useful at Greater Colibri camp. Critters just don't face me often enough to make defensive gear worthwhile--it's pretty much only when Souleater is up and I have the TP. Even then, I could just wait a bit for someone else to WS first or wait for tank to establish himself.

Heck, Battle Gloves would be better than AF hands. XD

(Caveat: That's on Joyeuse, which has low damage rating; higher rating swords' WS may do more.)

If you're soloing, that's an entirely different matter.

Warwolf Belt(Str + dex + vit > acc alone)
Snipers/Jeager's + Raja's or dex/str(Personally I'd take one acc and one stat ring to up the curve evenly)
...
AF hat(I find it more worth while meleeing with it to cast when needed than macroing it in/out)
...
Genbu's Shield(4acc of that tarque isn't that big of a deal imho and with /drk, -10% phys dmg taken is godly when you get hate @_@; )

I disagree; 72% accuracy was low. That's capped sword with 4 merits, Accurac+34 in gears, and sushi. There's no reason to remove accuracy gear at all until one start parsing near accuracy cap.

Amement Mantle+1 (No excuses, +1 or no DDing rdm)
It's a good item, but even with better gears than the ones you've listed, RDM won't be a real DD. =/

Sword Choices:
I haven't gotten a joytoy yet so no comment on how that works yet. So going with what I've toyed around with;
Martial Anelace(TP bonus, yummy, helps make up for lack of dmg/acc)
Royal Guards Flueret(+6acc, low delay, acceptable dmg)
Dissector(+6% crit rate, awesome sauce)
I don't see those as alternatives to Joyeuse or Justice Sword. On Colibri (my topic), Joyeuse is pretty much the only way to go.

Given that we sometimes have to switch to staves, and that we don't really want monsters to face us, it's counterproductive to worry too much about boosting weapon skills' damage. This is why high proc rate multi-hit weapons--Joyeuse and Justice Sword--fit front line RDM's purpose so well, IMO. They let us contribute to DoT significantly, with en-spell adding an additional small boost.

(those actually seriously discussing it, with the gear, experience, and skills to pull it off)

Successfully eliminating 100% of the posts from certain RDMs entering this discussion, who shall remain nameless.

This is for the most part assuming that there's a WHM in the party, and that the RDM is either pulling or would have nothing to do outside of Refreshing/Hasting otherwise, which is not entirely uncommon, to see a setup along the lines of WHM RDM BRD/COR DDx3 on Colibri(if you think this would be a bad setup you haven't had much merit experience).

Its assuming a lot. When you seek as RDM, BRD or COR and merit level, you're more than likely going to be paired with the others. If there isn't a RDM, BRD and COR will be invited to support WHM, or BRDx2. Basically, you're still assuming a scenario that happens in the rarest of circumstances unless you formed the PT yourself with that intention in mind.

When I saw the username Omgwtfbbqkitten, my skin crawled with the kind of the angry anti-frontline-RDM ranting I thought I'd be seeing. Much to my chagrin, it turned out to be a very logical, calm, collected, reasonable post.

Made a fool of me.

(Side note: you also just got my 1,000th Thanks!)

This has often been my stance on RDM melee, coming from the perspective other major PT supporters. Most RDMs have just stopped at "X Reason I don't want you to melee" and go off about how SE "intended" RDM to be such-and-such and sassafrass and how I'm a mean bastard for not wanting them to melee. Intention and execution are two different things and we've seen the intentions falter in favor of other potentials many times.

Ninja was intended to be a light DD/enfeebler and we made it a tank.
Blue Mage was intended to play DD/Support and most people just refuse to support.
Warrior was intended to DD and tank - most Warriors don't know what Provoke is.

Then you have the people who think Dancer was meant to tank since it got Animated Flourish and can tank in small PTs. They get torn to shreds on IT++, Paladins and Ninjas they are not. This is one of those situations where SE's intentions win out.

If there is a BRD in the Colbri party and the RDM is taking the Melee Songs... maybe the damage output from the RDM is decent.

Seriously, if MP is not a concern in the Colbri burn party, I would ask the RDM to melee.

Often, though, RDM is called upon to be the sole healer of the PT in a colibri PT and as a BRD or COR, ....


Not every Colibri party with RDM necessary be identical.


What I stated was:

If there is a BRD in the Colbri party and the RDM is taking the Melee Songs... maybe the damage output from the RDM is decent.

Seriously, if MP is not a concern in the Colbri burn party, I would ask the RDM to melee.


That does NOT mean that I would ask RDM to melee in every single Colibri party, for every single Colibri, all the time. :wasted:

If the melee-RDM has issue with MP, fall back to the backline. *Be flexible* ... that is all I am asking.

I thought the statement was clear.....

And my point was it was an extreme "if" and "maybe" considering what BRD and RDM end up doing when they're invited together. I thought that was pretty obvious.

Again, the only way it becomes common is if you build the PT to have that possibility. Seek and it will never happen.

And my point was it was an extreme "if" and "maybe" considering what BRD and RDM end up doing when they're invited together. I thought that was pretty obvious.

Again, the only way it becomes common is if you build the PT to have that possibility. Seek and it will never happen.

I guess you skipped over my overly long post about how I was invited by a WHM leader already at the Greater Colibri camp?

Not that I was looking to do any amount DD work, but it so happened that adding a little more damage was more useful than sitting in the back in that party.

It can happen. Sometimes, even to people who are (semi) prepared for it. (Thanks to Campaign Battles, I keep melee gears in the Mog House these days.)

/DRK is not a great choice. RDMs should hit 10-15% of party damage easily at level 75 if prepared for meleeing. /WAR and /NIN will give the best damage period. Just put down your staves, seriously. A level 75 melee RDM is going to do fine at what is most needed from his mp without them:

Haste (no boost from staff)
Refresh (no boost from staff)
Dispel (doesn't need staff)
Dia (doesn't need staff)
Cures (loss of 10% curing potency is acceptable if you are a backup healer)
Self buffs (don't need staves)


Guess what? You have a whole lot more room for melee gear when you leave some of those staves in your MH.


Secondly...

/NIN for Colibri or other piericing weak targets. Evisceration is great damage. Mainhand a dagger and offhand Joyeuse. Wear haste and accuracy gear. Dual Weild bonus is awesome, moreso with haste gear and Suppanomimi. Even with sushi, you'll probably be pushing it to get 85% accuracy, but you should also be able to squeeze out 8-12% haste gear. The previous poster's mention of STR is quite valid. Low base damage weapons like daggers and joyeuse get a nice kick from chunks of STR. Hopefully you've got a BRD for Minuets, but even if there isn't one, speed, enspell, and piercing weakness go a long way to push mediocre damage into acceptable damage.

If you have to maintain haste/refreshes try to keep them at a minimum. Work it out with your WHM or whoever is backline healer. Find the right balance for their mp expenditure as far as how much hasting they can do for you. Don't drop Dia duty if your backline healer isn't doing it. Dia's very important for the party. Dispel also, if applicable.


Now 51-74 levels can be quite different. /BLU and /WAR offer some nice utility or damage abilities. Weapon selection has different considerations different pre-joyeuse and pre-evisceration.



A counter to general don't melee arguements.

Feed TP: This is pretty weak. Mobs use TP when they want (not often) for 75% of their health. The last 25% is where they spam. Plenty of other jobs hit weakly but are necessary on the fronline for other abilities such as THFs, DNCs, and PLDs. A party doesn't get pwned becasue these jobs are feeding the mob TP for low damage. It won't get pwned by TP moves just because of a RDM meleeing either. TP given matters vs HNM that can kill people with their TP. Generally we pick standard mobs for xp that do crap TP moves like steal food, buff themselves, single hit attack that can be blinked, etc. We avoid stuff that AOE dispels or paralyzes, or does tremedous damage.

AOE: Status AOE, ok you don't wanna eat those. If there are two backline mages that can status fix though, it really doesn't matter. Damage AOE? RDM has better defenses than the rest of the frontline and can heal themselves. The backline healer(s) should be using efficient curagas when the frontline eats AOE adamage anyway. Curaga doesn't cost more mp just becasue there's an extra person getting it. Single target cures should not ever be needed for a frontline RDM. Also, a RDM might want to eat some damage and use Fencer's Ring for short periods when his hp are down a little.

Dropping normal duties: I have to agree with this one. If you can't dispel, dia, and maintain haste/refresh and keep your mp pool going until convert, then don't melee. Or at least know when its time to pull back and do the usual casting/resting thing.


Staff swapping necessary: Sometimes yes. And in lower level ranges that doesn't matter so much because RDM weaponskills are pretty weak, so TP losss is not a big deal. Their main benefit prior to Vorpal Blade/Evisceration are for skillchaining, not so much for damage in and of themselves. However how often do NIN tanks cast their own Slow and Blind? Slow and Paralyze Gravity, Silence, Sleep, and Poison are the only enfeebles we'd commonly cast where staves are really critical. Slow actually sticks pretty well even without a staff. I used a wand for Slow all the way up to 72ish. That leaves Paralyze which has a short recast and costs only 6mp. Many RDMs skip Poison II entirely. Gravity gets skipped if mp or kill speed don't justify its expense. Sleep and Silence are special cases, not needeed too often. Also, nowadays even in the 50's and 60's Colibri are targets. So there are opportunities for meleeing even in the 55-74 range. Its usually with PLD tanks and vs IT++ or very high defense mobs where meleeing is tougher to justify and enfeebling gets better mileage.

As with anything, its situational. The situations are rare, but not non-existant. I don't turn down parties where the build isn't optimal. I figure everyone needs xp and I shouldn't be picky about it. Often the non-ideal parties can get a little boost from a melee RDM if the backline can support it and if the RDM knows what he's doing. Having 8+ subjobs doesn't mean I'm always going to suggest I can /NIN and DD. It means I'll size things up and suggest what I think may be the most beneficial option.

I'd like to add that life without the staves further becomes bearable after merits.

With full Enfeebling merits(and full Ice MAcc), I need the staves for only the most resistant mobs and NMs.

Cures (loss of 10% curing potency is acceptable if you are a backup healer)
Not sure if I agree with this; I want the ability to take over main healing anytime it becomes necessary. Light Staff should always be in inventory, not in bazaar, and no more than a macro switch away.

Maybe Dark staff can be in the bazaar, but it comes out in a hurry when party's MP gets low. Kill speed is nice, chaining is great, but nothing ruins exp/hour faster than a death. Must always have MP enough to cure. :wasted:

Actually, sleep is important enough at Colibri camp that I wouldn't go without Dark Staff ready; those birds take the oddest paths and link easily, and a missed Sleep can require a Sleep II and a Cure III or more to fix. Very much worth my TP to make sure it lands.

Hopefully you've got a BRD for Minuets, but even if there isn't one, speed, enspell, and piercing weakness go a long way to push mediocre damage into acceptable damage.
I don't think people want BRD, WHM, and RDM in the same party these days--certainly not for Greater Colibri. It's pretty much "pick two", and usually not "WHM + RDM", either.

With capped Enhancing magic (plus extra pieces thrown in on casting), I still see heavy (if inconsistent) resists with Enblizzard on Greater Colibri. En- spell was helpful, but not all that it can be. Something like: 19, 19, 2, 9, 2, 2, 19, ... was pretty common on neutral weather.


If you have to maintain haste/refreshes try to keep them at a minimum.
If I'm not maintaining those, why am I even in party? :biggrin:

AOE: Status AOE, ok you don't wanna eat those. If there are two backline mages that can status fix though, it really doesn't matter. Damage AOE? RDM has better defenses than the rest of the frontline and can heal themselves.
Depends on which status ailments, it may matter even with RDM, WHM, and BLM in party. BLM needs lots of MP heal time, use spells with very long cast time, so is generally unsuited for status fixes without decimating their damage output. It's less of loss of damage to have the RDM go as /WHM, stay in the back line, and help handle status fixes and backup cure than to make the BLM do it.

WHM, SMN, RDM together would be a bit different. But, at Lv.70+, probably would be better if the SMN use MP for BP:Rage instead of backup curing if there's a RDM to do that.

Between contributing a small amount of damage by melee'ing or staying in the back line to concentrate on keeping the party running smoothly, the choice is usually obvious--the right time to melee is fairly rare.

Dropping normal duties: I have to agree with this one. If you can't dispel, dia, and maintain haste/refresh and keep your mp pool going until convert, then don't melee. Or at least know when its time to pull back and do the usual casting/resting thing.
You left out curing. That is a part of our main duty. ^_^b

Staff swapping necessary: [ ...] However how often do NIN tanks cast their own Slow and Blind? Slow and Paralyze Gravity, Silence, Slee