Which to drop - Slow II or Phalanx II

[hongman]

So, my Group 2 Merits stand as capped Slow II and Phalanx II at the moment. I did have capped Paralyze II but the Tanks in my LS were screaming for Phalanx, and seeming as Para II really let me down....

Anyways, now, I want to cap Bio III for solo purposes - that extra dmg/tick makes the fight go much faster (which in itself is safety).

So which do I drop? ><

So Phalanx II - I dont use it all that often, since I merited it, we down mobs to fast to even make it worthwhile (grown in numbers). Great for things like Jormy, but we dont really do those often. Plus, some other RDMs have it now too (although I'm not sure what kind of effort they out into it for optimal gear swaps >.>)

Slow II - EVERY RDM in my LS has this pretty much. Again, not sure if capped or not etc etc. There is certainly no shortage of it, but I have always loved this spell. I use it a lot on low man stuff or what have you.

I cant decide :(

[Sabaron]

It's not really a question in my mind any more. Phalanx II isn't strong enough to beat Scholar's Phalanxga. If you really need that kind of protection, Scholar has it covered. I'm sure little old Phalanx II still has some power to it being as it can be made continuous indefinitely, but for most applications, you can get by with either Diabolos' Noctoshield or Scholar's Phalanxga.

Slow II on the other hand is a very nice debuff. If both of your merits are well-stocked by others, why not go back to Paralyze II? The other option is to have them diversify a bit--seeing as you're reworking a level 3 merit for Bio III anyway instead of reworking two, make a party of it (if they have multiple meripo jobs) and have a couple others diversify the LS portfolio. It'd be nice to have a good even mix. Dia III can be useful as well.

[hongman]

Yeah, both capped.

We dont have any SCH yet but will do pretty soon I think...

[Icemage]

I'd drop Slow II to level 1. It's nice, but there's not much point in capping it, IMO. It's accurate enough without extra levels and while the extra levels increase potency (somewhat), the differences aren't "that" dramatic.

It's still handy for mobs that like to buff themselves with Haste effects, though, so don't lose it entirely.

Personally, I think any tank that's screaming for Phalanx II is a whiny little punk, but that's just me. It doesn't stop all that much damage per hit. If you're really interested in reducing the damage they take, Bio III is a better option for many circumstances.


Icemage

[hongman]

Hmm - anyone know the actual % difference between Slow II at level 1 and 3 (presuming no resists and same mnd difference)

I am really torn, and I am actually thinking of making the comprimise of Phalanx II -2 Slow II - 1, Bio III - 3.

I keep all the spells, albeit reducing potency of the others...all about comprimise right? :x

[Sabaron]

Hmm - anyone know the actual % difference between Slow II at level 1 and 3 (presuming no resists and same mnd difference)

I am really torn, and I am actually thinking of making the comprimise of Phalanx II -2 Slow II - 1, Bio III - 3.

I keep all the spells, albeit reducing potency of the others...all about comprimise right? :x

You can look here:
http://www.theorderls.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=11149&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=45

According to wiki the tier 3 top end is 37%, tier 2 is 35.56%. Tier 1 is 33%, but I believe the low end stays fixed at 22% regardless. You'll lose about 4% dropping to tier 1 and it's potency will drop below that of Hojo: Ni which will then overwrite it.

Here's the thread I was looking for:

http://www.ffxionline.com/forums/red-mage/64227-potency-enfeebling-magic.html

[Callisto]

I really, really, really don't think you should drop either of these in favor of full Bio III merits. Bio III just isn't that much better than Bio II, while Slow II is much better than Slow, and Phalanx II is much better than no Phalanx II. The most you're going to get out of Bio III without /SCH is about 8/tick iirc, and that's w/ some pretty heavy Dark Magic+ gear.

Bio II does 6/tick and lasts four times as long than a level 1 Bio III, and you'd need full Bio III merits to match the DoT damage of Bio II, and even then you're just getting stronger initial damage, for about 50% the MP cost. I know what you're soloing, and Slow II is indespensible if you get caught with an Ice Break on Zip, and Phalanx II saves a ton of MP worth of cures in larger LS events.

I definitely recommend sticking w/ Bio II, but that's just my opinion.



Personally, I think any tank that's screaming for Phalanx II is a whiny little punk, but that's just me. It doesn't stop all that much damage per hit. If you're really interested in reducing the damage they take, Bio III is a better option for many circumstances.

Icemage

That really only works for fighting one single mob, in something like Dynamis or Limbus Phalanx II is much more useful, unless you want to spend 50+ MP casting Bio III on every mob. My Phalanx takes off 18/hit, not a huge chunk but it adds up.

[hongman]

Callisto, I hear ya. But I really dont use Phalanx much. And I mean, REALLY rarely use it.

Even in Dynamis-Xarc now the NMs dont last longer than 30s and that is pretty much the only common place I can see it being used in our LS Events. We dont do Wyrms often or anything like that. Anyways, I AM still trying to decide >.<

Thanks for the figures Sab, my elvaan ass is so lazy :D

How much difference is there between the landing damage of Bio II and Bio III anyone? My Bio II damage lands for single to low end double digits normally on these kinda mobs.

Or SE could just let me merit all 3 fully :/

[Callisto]

Bio II will do 6/tick for 120 seconds, maxed Bio III with 225+ skill does 8/tick for 90 seconds(I forgot what the 9/tick tier is, if there is one reachable by /NIN). Both of these add up to 240 damage, the only damage increase maxed Bio III is giving you is in the initial damage, if it's something hard like Sky NMs, Bio II will fetch you about 7-10, III will get you 35~ in my experiences.

[hongman]

But over a typical fight, thats a lot of 30s differences :x

[Callisto]

Yes, but you're Elvaan like me, so you also need to consider that Bio II costs 180 MP over 10 minutes, while Bio III costs more than 350 if you have maxed merits. I'm not sure what your exact setup is, but with 2 MP merits and Glace I only get 700~ MP as /NIN in my base set, 800~ in my Convert set. Spamming away that much MP doesn't leave alot of room for emergency Cures. If your initial damage #'s were similar to mine that extra 170+ MP would net you 180 extra damage, in which case you may as well just throw out a Blizz 3 once every 10 minutes and take the chance at getting 2+x that.

[Celeal]

I am wondering if RDM/SCH's Phalanxga vs. Phalanx II (rdm/sch, NOT sch)? Is that compatible?

[Callisto]

/SCH can't do the AoE buff thing, that's 40SCH afaik.

[Celeal]

Oh ic, thx for the info ^^;

[Icemage]

I wasn't suggesting that he max Bio III. I think level 3 Bio III is just as much a waste of points as level 3 Slow II, to be honest.

But Hongman does a lot of small-group activities as well as endgame stuff, and toward that end, Bio III at level 1 is a worthwhile investment. It's a decent (if slightly expensive) short-term DoT that lets you run past enemies that you've cast Bind or Gravity on with a higher safety margin. It's also a handy counter to Hundred Fists, Mighty Strikes, and Blood Weapon in Dynamis.


Icemage

[Raydeus]

Question:

So after all the debate and experience is turns out the only group II spell worth it (and only at lvl 1 to rewrite Haste buffs) is Slow II?

[Callisto]

Anyways, now, I want to cap Bio III for solo purposes - that extra dmg/tick makes the fight go much faster (which in itself is safety).


Yeah, but that's what he was specifically asking for, to use it for soloing DoT kite fights, which if you were going to even bother using it for those you'd have to cap it to make it even comparable to Bio II, much less better.
------------------------------------------
Question:

So after all the debate and experience is turns out the only group II spell worth it (and only at lvl 1 to rewrite Haste buffs) is Slow II?

I personally am very happy with Paralyze II and Slow II. Blind II is impossible to tell how much it helps, but so is Blind I, so I just use it to be safe. Para II and Slow II alone saved me when I got caught by Ice Break on my last Zip solo, getting hit with that can easily wipe most RDMs if not for some very lucky Para procs.

[Sabaron]

Question:

So after all the debate and experience is turns out the only group II spell worth it (and only at lvl 1 to rewrite Haste buffs) is Slow II?

I'm very happy with Paralyze II. The proc rate is very nice. I'm sure hong is probably disappointed with it relative to it's performance against HNMs, but he'd really have to answer that. If you think about it though, it's not like you're ever going to see 1/2 or 1/4 proc on Kirin, but if you look at Paralyze and Jubaku: Ichi, are you even going to be able to stick them in the first place. Paralyze II is great because it's the absolute stickiest paralyze effect in the game and it has the best proc rate relative to any other paralyze effect available on the same mob. Why wouldn't you want it over Jubaku: Ichi?

I'm sure that it's possible to get numbers on Blind II. It decreases accuracy , yes? We have Brenner do we not?

Can't we take meat bag one and meat bag two out to Brenner, slap some dink weapons on them and have them beat on each other for an hour or so and get some numbers? Does anyone have Blind II merited?

A suitable test environment for Blind II.

Take two naked 75WARs with unmerited random weapon skill.

Give them an Onion weapon with a moderate attack rate.

Keep one continuously under the effects of Blind and Blind II of whatever merit level.

Use a parser to determine the hit ratios of each war (over a long period of time).

The problem being resists to the spell which should be very rare. The blind WAR can only hit while blind--if his sight returns they break attack until blind is back up.

Best test case is 1 RDM with Blind II-1 7 active merit points or a combination of two RDMs with different levels of Blind II merit.
Initial testing... Naked RDM casting Blind, followed by Blind II-1.
Follow up by increasing merit level of Blind II to 2.
Resume testing.
Increase Blind II Merit level to 3 and resume testing.

We need to collect at least 100 samples with each spell. An onion sword has 228 delay, 60/228 * 100 = 26 minutes, so about 1/2 an hour per test for a total test time of 2 hours.

Now just convert the hit rate to accuracy.

[Callisto]

I have Blind II, but no willing lab rats.

Side note, in my personal experiences Ice Spikes is hands down the best proc rate Paralyze effect I've used...wish I could get one as strong as Hex Eye. :(

[Sabaron]

I have Blind II, but no willing lab rats.

Side note, in my personal experiences Ice Spikes is hands down the best proc rate Paralyze effect I've used...wish I could get one as strong as Hex Eye. :(

Ice spikes can't be -ga'ed with any power (Frost Armor is laughably short) and someone squishy has to be tanking or someone not squishy has to be wasting their sub on /BLM.

[Raydeus]

I personally am very happy with Paralyze II and Slow II. Blind II is impossible to tell how much it helps, but so is Blind I, so I just use it to be safe. Para II and Slow II alone saved me when I got caught by Ice Break on my last Zip solo, getting hit with that can easily wipe most RDMs if not for some very lucky Para procs.

Is it really worth the MP cost/effect over tier I though? I don't solo tough mobs much anymore, but I would probably stay clear from mobs that would require me to have Slow and Para II on them the entire fight, specially since I'd run out of MP fast.

Slow + Para 81 vs 21 MP, it should give you at least twice the effect to be worth it, the question is: Does it?

I'm very happy with Paralyze II. The proc rate is very nice. I'm sure hong is probably disappointed with it relative to it's performance against HNMs, but he'd really have to answer that. If you think about it though, it's not like you're ever going to see 1/2 or 1/4 proc on Kirin, but if you look at Paralyze and Jubaku: Ichi, are you even going to be able to stick them in the first place. Paralyze II is great because it's the absolute stickiest paralyze effect in the game and it has the best proc rate relative to any other paralyze effect available on the same mob. Why wouldn't you want it over Jubaku: Ichi?

I guess if I did HNM stuff I'd also like Para II if just for the stick rate alone.

[Malacite]

Bio II will do 6/tick for 120 seconds, maxed Bio III with 225+ skill does 8/tick for 90 seconds(I forgot what the 9/tick tier is, if there is one reachable by /NIN). Both of these add up to 240 damage, the only damage increase maxed Bio III is giving you is in the initial damage, if it's something hard like Sky NMs, Bio II will fetch you about 7-10, III will get you 35~ in my experiences.

What about with Dark Arts though?

[Raydeus]

I have Blind II, but no willing lab rats.

Side note, in my personal experiences Ice Spikes is hands down the best proc rate Paralyze effect I've used...wish I could get one as strong as Hex Eye. :(

I've always used Ice Spikes and love them, which is why I rarely even cast Paralize unless I'm /NIN and the mob hits so hard I can't risk getting hit by it at all (yay shihei burn).

So yeah Para II isn't for me. I just hope Spellblade spells for RDM (if that's what SE has in mind) are much better.



PS > (Burn) Malachite, (Burn)! :P

[Callisto]

Ice spikes can't be -ga'ed with any power (Frost Armor is laughably short) and someone squishy has to be tanking or someone not squishy has to be wasting their sub on /BLM.

I just meant in terms of soloing, Ice Spikes is much more potent than me casting a Paralyze spell of either tier.

Is it really worth the MP cost/effect over tier I though? I don't solo tough mobs much anymore, but I would probably stay clear from mobs that would require me to have Slow and Para II on them the entire fight, specially since I'd run out of MP fast.

Slow + Para 81 vs 21 MP, it should give you at least twice the effect to be worth it, the question is: Does it?

I don't think that it has to be twice the effect to be worth it. Haste works exponentially, as does Slow. If you're fighting a mob large enough to warrant a strong Paralyze effect, it's worth the MP to have the best possible effect. Remember that in large fights, 1 Para proc can save a WHM 85+ MP.

What about with Dark Arts though?

It very well may, I intend to test it as soon as I hit 37 SCH. However, I need to point out again that the OP is about capping Bio III for DoT kiting heavy duty NMs, almost all of which would require /NIN to do.

[Mhurron]

Side note, in my personal experiences Ice Spikes is hands down the best proc rate Paralyze effect I've used(
Sad isn't it. Would be nice if Paralyze II was at least that good.

[Callisto]

Sad isn't it. Would be nice if Paralyze II was at least that good.

Eh could be worse. I'm thankful that the high proc rate spell is for when something is swinging at my face rather than someone else's.
------------------------------------------
Eh I did goof a little, I omitted that although Bio III did the same amount of DoT, there was an extra 1 and 2/3 duration squeezed into 10 minutes over Bio II. This results in an extra 400 damage, 33% more than Bio II. If you already have other RDMs that use Phalanx II at your other events, it would be worth capping Bio III for your solo efforts, it'll shave 1/3 off of your fight time assuming you can recast it quickly after it wears each time.

[hongman]

Icemage, I was under the impression that Bio 3 isnt worth much in solo situations without capped duration compared to Bio 2, dmg/mp wise.

I am really leaning toward Phalanx II tbh. I hardly ever use that anymore.

Para II, I was really disappointed with. Hard to test Para procs, so I guess I am going on placebo, but it seems to me Paralyze 1 procs more than Paralyze 2 >.> (ala our last Ultima)

Slow II - hmm. I will decide on this later, if I do drop this to level 1 I may merit something like Dia III for zergs.

It'll probably be some months before I am done with all this anyway, I find it so hard to merit now, its so boring >.>

[BurningPanther]

I am really leaning toward Phalanx II tbh. I hardly ever use that anymore.Short answer: if I had to choose one to drop, Phalanx 2 would be it.
Para II, I was really disappointed with. Hard to test Para procs, so I guess I am going on placebo, but it seems to me Paralyze 1 procs more than Paralyze 2 >.> (ala our last Ultima)Eyeballing it, I'd have to say at it's worst, the tier 2 procs just as much as the tier one, perhaps a bit more on average. The key to consider with all the the tier 2 merits is that we seem to be paying for that extra 2 MAcc on the spell per upgrade.
Slow II - hmm. I will decide on this later, if I do drop this to level 1 I may merit something like Dia III for zergs.Drop anything but Slow 2. My personal opinion is that this was the greatest update we were given since the release of ToAU.

[Malacite]

Wouldn't dark arts @75 boost RDM's dark magic rating to around 250? That's a pretty drastic increase. Might jack Bio III's DoT a point or two.

[Sabaron]

Wouldn't dark arts @75 boost RDM's dark magic rating to around 250? That's a pretty drastic increase. Might jack Bio III's DoT a point or two.

This is where the theoretical next tier of Bio III came into play in a recent discussion in one of the Red Mage threads starting here (http://www.ffxionline.com/forums/red-mage/64227-potency-enfeebling-magic-2.html#27) at Taskmage's necro.

[hongman]

Thanks for the thoughts everyone.

Even if Dark Arts did jack up the skill, I still couldnt use it - not for solo anyway. Shadows are much too important :x

[Icemage]

Icemage, I was under the impression that Bio 3 isnt worth much in solo situations without capped duration compared to Bio 2, dmg/mp wise.
It's inefficient from a damage/MP viewpoint, but given some of the things I know you are fighting (*coughFaustcough*), a little investment in it isn't a bad thing - and it does have uses in group/alliance situations, too. More points in it isn't a good idea, though, as the extra duration doesn't really help that much unless you're phalanx/stoneskin tanking - and you're not looking to use it as a permanent DoT (if you are, I suggest looking elsewhere).

I am really leaning toward Phalanx II tbh. I hardly ever use that anymore.
I personally think Phalanx II is a crock. 21 HP isn't going to save your tank in HNM situations, and you'd never cast it on yourself.

Para II, I was really disappointed with. Hard to test Para procs, so I guess I am going on placebo, but it seems to me Paralyze 1 procs more than Paralyze 2 >.> (ala our last Ultima)
Para II does proc more than Para I, but ONLY if you bump it to level 3.

Slow II - hmm. I will decide on this later, if I do drop this to level 1 I may merit something like Dia III for zergs.
I have 1 point in Slow II and can not for the life of me see any reason to push it higher.

Given what I know about what you normally do on a typical day, I'd recommend for you (not for everyone since every RDM does different things)

Paralyze II: Level 3
Slow II: Level 1
Bio III: Level 1

Last level do whatever you want with. Dia III isn't really all that and a bag of chips, as it's only used on a handful of HNM targets with any regularity, and you'd never pop it in an XP/merit or solo situation, but if your LS does things like meleeburning Kirin, I could perhaps see getting 1 level of it.

Blind II doesn't help you at all, and is only really of use when you're in an alliance with an evasion-build Ninja or a THF/NIN in a small group.

Phalanx II is OK. Again, I don't see much point in extra levels - if your tanks are dying over a few HP, your strategy sucks. Still, it's a goodwill gesture - but as mentioned above, situations where you want your tanks to take less damage are much better covered by Bio III than Phalanx II. Combine the two, however, and you've got a decent combination, provided you have sufficient MP to fuel it.


Icemage

[hongman]

It's inefficient from a damage/MP viewpoint, but given some of the things I know you are fighting (*coughFaustcough*), a little investment in it isn't a bad thing - and it does have uses in group/alliance situations, too. More points in it isn't a good idea, though, as the extra duration doesn't really help that much unless you're phalanx/stoneskin tanking - and you're not looking to use it as a permanent DoT (if you are, I suggest loking elsewhere).

I still dont get what you are saying :x Bio III merits extend duration, which means I have to then cast it less. Less casting means more MP saved on a very MP intensive fight already. Also means less Binds I have to break myself. And yes, it is a permenant source of DoT, along with Poison II - Bliz3 only when I have the MP and the timing is right (i.e Bind and Grav is up). Did I miss the point?

I personally think Phalanx II is a crock. 21 HP isn't going to save your tank in HNM situations, and you'd never cast it on yourself.

I dont know, 21 HP every hit over a 2hr fight (slowmo Jormy style) is a lot of HP saved. But we dont do those very often lol.


Para II does proc more than Para I, but ONLY if you bump it to level 3.

Yeah, I had it at level 3. It still sucked ass for me >.>

Given what I know about what you normally do on a typical day, I'd recommend for you (not for everyone since every RDM does different things)

Paralyze II: Level 3
Slow II: Level 1
Bio III: Level 1



As much as I appreciate your valuable insight, I would never merit Para II again. It just isnt for me, seeming how I notice my Para 1 procs are acceptable as it is, and my past experience with Para II.

[Icemage]

Well if you really dislike Para II then drop it to 0. :) I find that it's a bit "stickier" than Paralyze I, and doesn't get resisted nearly as often, but I'll agree it doesn't really proc all that much more often even at level 3.

As for Bio III, I don't advocate pushing it above level 1 unless you're straight tanking - for group applications like HNMs popping up Mighty Strikes or Hundred Fists, level 1 is sufficient. Even with level 3, the duration is short enough that you can't afford to keep it on full-time. As for the DoT effect, Bio II is going to be a better bet. For long-term damage mitigation, Bio II is also more supportable than Bio III. It's just too much MP to spend to keep on full-time when you've got other things to worry about, even with the extended duration at level 3.

Honestly, I think most of the RDM Group II arsenal "looks" better than it actually performs.


Icemage

[Yellow Mage]

Honestly, I think most of the RDM Group II arsenal "looks" better than it actually performs.

And, honestly, I think most of the RDM Group II arsenal doesn't look all that good to begin with.

Notice how our statements are not mutually exclusive. :(

[Fynlar]

I had 3 in Phalanx, 1 each in Para, Slow, Dia. Dropped Para and Dia, maxed Slow. Loving it. I like spells that I actually USE, and Phalanx and Slow are both it and both carry noticeable effects that are able to ease situations that would have been tricky without them. IMO there's no reason to merit anything else unless you NEVER use blood tanks (in which case, drop Phalanx and get Dia), or you are planning to work with your other RDMs in your LS and get different things so that you have all bases covered.

Bio, honestly, isn't worth any points, unless all you intend to use your RDM for is to solo nuke-resistant NMs, like... I dunno... Genbu. Thing to keep in mind is that a lot of the really nasty NMs are ones that you don't want to be feeding TP anyway, so Bio would be out of the question anyway on those. (I bet some of those people wish there was a meritable Poison 3 instead. It would actually make a lot more sense for RDM, given our high score in Enfeebling and our craptastic score in Dark, but whatyagonnado?) If it's not nuke resistant, the MP you save in a 10 minute span by keeping Bio 2 on the mob instead of Bio 3 will be enough to throw a Blizzard 3, which will probably cover any extra DoT Bio 3 would have done. In a PT situation, you may as well let the BLM cast Bio 2 if you desperately need Bio for some reason, because not only are they able to match your Bio 3 DoT anyway with practically no effort, it will save you some merit slots.

I personally think Phalanx II is a crock. 21 HP isn't going to save your tank in HNM situations, and you'd never cast it on yourself.

Stop casting Phalanx on a blink tank. :thumbsup:

That's obviously not what the spell was intended for. Of course if your tank is only going to get hit once or twice on average during Phalanx's duration, it's not worth casting. On the other hand, if your tank takes say, 20 hits during its duration, that's about 420 damage blocked, about equivalent to a RDM's Cure 4, meaning less enmity gained by you curing him as well as MP saved.

You use Phalanx on blood tanks (note that this does not apply solely to PLDs) and any situations where someone is taking hits at a high rate. In those situations, it shines greatly, much more so than any of our other meritables. Almost every serious HNM is blink tanked (even the PLDs will often go /NIN) so Phalanx is obviously not as worthwhile there. ???? is situational.

Phalanx is really the only unique spell out of all our meritables and it's not hard to think of instances where it would be a godsend to have, which is why I don't think it should be overlooked without consideration. The others are all just rehashed, slightly improved, but more expensive versions of existing effects.


In conclusion, I like our category 2 merits. If you wanna see jobs that got dicked by their cat.2's, go check out NIN, BST, RNG, and SMN.

[IfritnoItazura]

Phalanx is really the only unique spell out of all our meritables
SMN: Noctoshield (Phalanx-ga); not sure about potency.
SCH/RDM: Phalanx-ga; stronger than Phalanx II.

Nice? Yes. Unique? Not really.

[Sabaron]

SMN: Noctoshield (Phalanx-ga); not sure about potency.
SCH/RDM: Phalanx-ga; stronger than Phalanx II.

Nice? Yes. Unique? Not really.

Noctoshield is capped at 13 iirc.

The thing, now, is that the hypothetical higher Bio III tier is not what it was projected to be, therefore Bio III from a RDM/SCH will not be significantly stronger than it was before.

[Raydeus]

So, for all intends and purposes I'll just asume the end result of these debates is:

Group II spells aren't worth it no matter how you slice it. If you have the merits to spare then go for it just for the sake of having something new/potentially useful.



PS > I just hope the new spells for RDM (if any) work much better than this, in the mean time I wont be getting any Group II spells. Rather cap crits and other combat/magic skills. :rofl:

[IfritnoItazura]

Bio III's lacking progression is a real bummer. It can still be useful, I think, in kite-while-dealing-with-adds type of situation like Kirin, where it
1. Adds a little safety (~15.2% attack down),
2. Does a little DoT (9 dmg/tick easily on RDM/SCH build), plus
3. Do those for for very little TP (10 TP per application, with duration of 90 seconds at max merit).

Even in normal kite fight, it wouldn't be too bad for a RDM/SCH to toss on Bio III, especially as a counter to any critter with strong innate regen.

I'm still planning to fully merit Bio III. Right after I finish getting Phalanx II Lv.2, and log a few Wind and Ice accuracy merits. ◀/sigh▶

* * *

Edit:
So, for all intends and purposes I'll just asume the end result of these debates is:

Group II spells aren't worth it no matter how you slice it. If you have the merits to spare then go for it just for the sake of having something new/potentially useful.
That would be a wrong conclusion. Slow II is very useful just about anywhere it can land, while Dia III has strong application in supplementing melee damage. Phalanx II can save a good deal of MP for cures when not tanking on Utsusemi.

Even Blind II can potentially be useful. Gear and monster depending, it can hit accuracy-30 or more (par or exceed Kurayami: Ni), which translates to a solid evasion+30 for evasion tanking. THF tanks doing small group work would appreciate that, I'd think--if they can ever find a RDM who has it merited.

The most debatable one is Paralyze II, with wildly inconsistent reports of ranging from proc'ing worse than Paralyze I to incredibly well.

The point is, it's not whether the group II spells are worthwhile or not, but do you participate in activities which one or more of them would be helpful in?

[Raydeus]

Like I said, they are potentially useful but not worth it for me unless you have nothing else to spend merits on.

I'm sure there are hundreds of ways to justify getting the spells, I've seen a lot since SE introduced them. But not a single one of them is good enough to convince me to waste time and merits on a bunch of half assed spells introduced only because SE had to toss something into the RDM group II list.

4 times the MP for a bit more M. acc and some very neglible effect/DoT increase. A weak version of a spell that could potentially help blood tanking everywhere but that's too weak to make any significant difference when it actually matters (and at least 25 levels too late).

And that's the way I see them.

But like I said, that's what I am going to asume. And I certainly hope every RDM that reads what I wrote takes the time to think for themselves to decide wether they are worth it or not for them regardless of what everyone's opinion on the matter is. :thumbsup:

[Pteryx]

The most debatable one is Paralyze II, with wildly inconsistent reports of ranging from proc'ing worse than Paralyze I to incredibly well.

Paralyze II seems to be the one for which extra investment does the most. Paralyze II level 1 is basically only useful as a stepping stone to Paralyze II level 2. I have Paralyze II level 2, one Enfeebling merit, and one ice acc merit, and I find that combination to be respectable against non-HNMs, reminiscent of how the original Paralyze was at low levels where I fell in love with it. (It's worth noting that gearwise, I use Wise Gloves as well.) If the jump from level 2 to level 3 is anything like the jump from level 1 to level 2, then Paralyze II should end up slightly better than the original Paralyze but not as good as Ice Spikes when it comes to its overall strength.

One thing I've noted as well about Paralyze in general is that accuracy makes an enormous difference with it. A resisted Paralyze doesn't just have a shorter duration, but also a lower proc rate. This is why Barparalyze is the only useful Barstatus, and why the original Paralyze eventually becomes wasted MP to cast, making only a temporary partial comeback when you get your Ice Staff. -- Pteryx

[Karinya]

I disagree - even though the proc rate goes down, the HP saved per proc goes up - WAY up - making it very worthwhile. It's easily worth casting several paralyzes to get one proc out of them on an HNM. And I routinely get multiple procs per Hundred Fists in Dynamis (from para II level 1).

Mainly, though, I joined this thread to mention how much I like Dia III. It's the strongest def down RDM can get. One of the problems with RDM these days is how much of our support role is oriented toward reducing the monster's ability to kill the party, and how little is in helping the party kill the monsters faster. With blink tanking and weak mobs, that makes us less than useful a lot of the time. But nobody doesn't love -15% defense, all the time, unresistable. It's not worth casting on every mob in merit (although if you pull the occasional Skoffin or something, you might), but it makes everything die faster in Dynamis, Limbus, Assault, Campaign... seriously, it's a great spell, if someone doesn't overwrite it with Bio III.

In answer to the original question, I'd drop Phalanx II. Pay merit points to imitate SMN and now SCH too? No thanks. I'd rather have the strongest paralyze in the game, a damn useful unresistable def down (stacks with blu's, too, if they ever use it) and a slow that overwrites haste. Blind is in the "might be worth getting if the cap didn't force you to sacrifice something else for it" category and Bio III and Phalanx II don't even reach that point IMO.

[Fynlar]

SMN: Noctoshield (Phalanx-ga); not sure about potency.
SCH/RDM: Phalanx-ga; stronger than Phalanx II.

Nice? Yes. Unique? Not really.

Unique for RDM? Yes.

Why bring other jobs into the argument? We're just talking about RDM's capabilities, not anyone else's. Do you always party with SMNs and SCHs? I sure as hell don't. Most people don't even like to invite SMNs to most activities, and while I'm sure there are some 75 SCHs on my server, I have yet to actually see and notice one.

My point was, out of all our meritables, Phalanx 2 is the only one that lets us do something we couldn't do before, an entirely new capability. The rest are just rehashes of stuff we already have.


I'd rather have the strongest paralyze in the game

I got that without having to pay any merits... it's called Ice Spikes >_>

[Sabaron]

Unique for RDM? Yes.

Why bring other jobs into the argument? We're just talking about RDM's capabilities, not anyone else's. Do you always party with SMNs and SCHs? I sure as hell don't. Most people don't even like to invite SMNs to most activities, and while I'm sure there are some 75 SCHs on my server, I have yet to actually see and notice one.

My point was, out of all our meritables, Phalanx 2 is the only one that lets us do something we couldn't do before, an entirely new capability. The rest are just rehashes of stuff we already have.




I got that without having to pay any merits... it's called Ice Spikes >_>

Ice Spikes was already discussed--It cannot be used on others, so it is virtually useless except to a RDM tank that is not using Utsusemi. We had already gone through the benefits of each of the spells, and I think it all comes out in the end that all of the RDM merit spells are worthwhile in some instances, but some need all 3 merit levels to be good. In an HNMLS where you will find a SMN and have a good chance to find a SCH, what merits would you want in light of their capabilities? You're taking the discussion out of context... There are quite a few pages of discussion. I doubt that anything you have said has added anything that hasn't already been discussed above.

The choice in Hongman's case would boil down to what do other RDMs in the LS have? The idea is to have all of the bases covered in one LS. Thus the most efficient End-game RDM entourage is formed. Phalanx II is essentially a party tool, so you will pick it if it is synergistic with your group and leave it if it is already covered.

While it is true that Phalanx II is the only merit spell that adds a new capability to end-game RDM, it is not a unique ability among all classes. SMN gets a weaker version that has better overall coverage, and SCH/RDM gets a stronger version that has better overall coverage. All three versions are useful in various situations, but if you had an HNMLS, I doubt you'd want all of your RDMs to have Phalanx II.

[Fynlar]

Ice Spikes was already discussed--It cannot be used on others, so it is virtually useless except to a RDM tank that is not using Utsusemi.

The fact remains, Paralyze 2 is not our strongest paralysis ability.

Also, if we're going to cover the capabilities of other jobs, why not just say that SMN or SCH/BLM can do a better paralyze than us by simply doing AoE Ice Spikes, and therefore ask why should we bother with Paralyze 2? It's the same sort of logic that was used for Phalanx 2.

SMN gets a weaker version that has better overall coverage, and SCH/RDM gets a stronger version that has better overall coverage.

- Each of them have to use up BP or Stratagem timers to use them. They do not come with solely an MP cost. If you're using those abilities, you're sacrificing the chance to use others.
- Both of them require the user to close in to AoE range. Chances are, if you're fighting something where AoE Phalanx is actually warranted, you're probably fighting something with nasty AoE. Phalanx 2, on the other hand, can be thrown from a greater distance than other spells usually can, and once it begins casting, it cannot ever be "out-of-ranged", which is extremely useful for kiting situations.
- Phalanx isn't usually an ability that needs to be AoE'd to begin with, you're usually better off using Stoneskin instead in such a case

it is not a unique ability among all classes.

When did I ever make that claim?

I'm saying for RDM, it is unique.

All three versions are useful in various situations, but if you had an HNMLS, I doubt you'd want all of your RDMs to have Phalanx II.

None of the RDM tier 2 merits are important enough for me to bother about who gets what in HNM play. Even Phalanx 2 stops being useful most of the time because most everything is blink tanked, although it still has its niche situations where it shines above all else (PLD tanking a mob doing Hundred Fists as a simple example). Enfeebles have high resist rates on most of the things that actually matter and unless they can Elemental Seal them, I'd rather not have RDMs spending enormous amounts of MP trying to land crapshoot enfeebles with higher MP costs. They are better off saving the MP for Cures or other important things.

If someone wants to throw Dia 3 that's fine with me, but honestly, it's not that much better than Dia 2 and it costs much more MP over time to maintain even when fully merited. If it's not fully merited, it's a definite waste. I don't know why Dia/Bio 3 couldn't be 3 minute duration at max merits like they are supposed to be...

[IfritnoItazura]

Phalanx is really the only unique spell out of all our meritables and it's not hard to think of instances where it would be a godsend to have, which is why I don't think it should be overlooked without consideration. The others are all just rehashed, slightly improved, but more expensive versions of existing effects.

When did I ever make that claim?

I'm saying for RDM, it is unique.

It was not clear what you meant initially, at least not to me. Now that you've qualified what you meant, it's more clear. You mean 'unique' as in different target than level 1 version. But, that's not the only way to define uniqueness.

Slow II is unique in being able to override certain haste buffs, and keep them off. Dia III's mileage is proportional to the number of melee DDs thrown at the target, and it's arguably our most helpful spell for melee DDs. Bio III can become the second highest DoT rating slip spell a RDM have access to. Blind II can lower a monster's accuracy more than Kurayami: Ni.

The meritable spells are all unique or special in some sense, except maybe Paralyze II. :P

[Sabaron]

The fact remains, Paralyze 2 is not our strongest paralysis ability.

Also, if we're going to cover the capabilities of other jobs, why not just say that SMN or SCH/BLM can do a better paralyze than us by simply doing AoE Ice Spikes, and therefore ask why should we bother with Paralyze 2? It's the same sort of logic that was used for Phalanx 2.



You can't combine Manifestation and Ice Spikes (I believe we had a discussion on this on a speculation thread early in the days before we knew what SCH could do--I was disappointed as Ice Spikes-ga was to be an excellent combo). Therefore, the only mass Ice Spikes effect remains the short-lived under-powered version that SMN has.

Manifestation - FFXIclopedia - a Wikia Gaming wiki (http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Manifestation)

Frost Armor - FFXIclopedia - a Wikia Gaming wiki (http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Frost_Armor)

[Fynlar]

Slow II is unique in being able to override certain haste buffs, and keep them off. Dia III's mileage is proportional to the number of melee DDs thrown at the target, and it's arguably our most helpful spell for melee DDs. Bio III can become the second highest DoT rating slip spell a RDM have access to. Blind II can lower a monster's accuracy more than Kurayami: Ni.

The meritable spells are all unique or special in some sense, except maybe Paralyze II.

In my book, none of that is really unique, other than maybe Slow 2's ability to overwrite and block more Haste abilities. (Strangely enough, Slow 2 happens to be our other stand-out category 2 merit, fancy that?)

Phalanx 2 is not just blinding the enemy a little bit more, or lowering the mob's defense a little bit more... it's an entirely different capability that RDM has zero access to without meriting it, and that's what I meant by uniqueness.


You can't combine Manifestation and Ice Spikes (I believe we had a discussion on this on a speculation thread early in the days before we knew what SCH could do--I was disappointed as Ice Spikes-ga was to be an excellent combo). Therefore, the only mass Ice Spikes effect remains the short-lived under-powered version that SMN has.

I stand corrected. >_>

[IfritnoItazura]

In my book, none of that is really unique,
The thing is, you can't be subjectively selective about what is "real" when it comes uniqueness. Either something is unique, or it is not.

If a species of ants has two little kinks on its left antenna, it's unique for it--whether it does anything useful or even different from other species of ants left antenna or not makes no difference. When you can isolate what is different from the rest, you have uniqueness.

Now, if you want to argument meaningful operational differences, that's a different subject. (Of course, I listed the differences primarily in terms of in-game, testable observation and conjunctures, so I'm safe on that front as well. :P )

Or, maybe you just confused the word "unique" with "special". Determination of what is "special" can be subjective--and usually is.

[MrMageo]

Personally i have popped 1 in every category.

Dia : assist in overall melee DMG
Blind: Hard to tell when and when it doesnt proc
Para: I find it to be on par with para 1 on the tougher NM's and sky mobs
if para 1 lands at all >.>
Slow: 33% is a decent effect, over writes haste is full of win
Phalanx: On a blood tank there is nothing better to use half the cost of the cure 4
youd need other wise
Bio3: Least used by me Bio 2 ftw, nice to cast fast for a damaging WS or 2HR

The added Duration didnt apeal to me and spell ACC dosent seem to be an issue
(have 3/3 ice 2/2 wind 2/2 earth acc) as well as maxed MND merits (we taru so week) I only need ES to stick the Gods with there strong elemental Enfeeble. (may be able to get it to stick without need 3 merits for capped enfeebling)
______________________________
Oh also ive been thinking has anyone tested the spell ACC thing is it just tied to the spell itself or is it an increase to overall spell acc? because if it is the latter i wil be droping bio,dia,phalanx and going 2/2/2 for +6 ACC

If anyone has any knowledge on this or numbers please let me know.

[Icemage]

Oh also ive been thinking has anyone tested the spell ACC thing is it just tied to the spell itself or is it an increase to overall spell acc? because if it is the latter i wil be droping bio,dia,phalanx and going 2/2/2 for +6 ACC

If anyone has any knowledge on this or numbers please let me know.
The Magic Accuracy you get for additional levels in merited spells like Paralyze II applies to that spell only. It's not a generic MACC+ like you'd get from, say, Wise gear.


Icemage

[MrMageo]

Awesome thaks Icemage i thought thats how it was meant but sometimes words have two meanings