What is DNC's role interpret by FFXI community

[Celeal]

After party (exp. parties) with a few DNC from level 70+ to merit, I think it is a good time to raise this question, since more and more DNC is reaching level 75:

Which role(s) do you expect a DNC to perform (in general, like exp. parties)?
Note: I am NOT asking for speculation.

I am trying avoid any misunderstanding, confusion or false expectations:
Like in my last party (level 73 ~ 75), the party leader (PUP) /tell me (PLD) that a DNC was going to main heal....

Did the DNC main heal in my last party?
Well, thinking back based on the DNC's performance, I think the party leader just assumed DNC would main heal, but the DNC might not know what she was signed up for in that party.

Did the PUP (party leader) use his pet to main healer? Only a few battles... then he switch his pet to DD most of time....

Bad news for PLD (me).... no Refresher or Main Healer .... Or I guess I was the main healer since I cast most of the Cures~ in that party..... Orz (gain some exp. with a few deaths in the party)

To make the long story short, I had seen DNC fill-in roles like pulling, support (I am not so sure, my DNC only at lvl 10).

What is your opinion ^^?

[IfritnoItazura]

I expect DNC to be the main source of direct cure, but not the sole healer.

Of course, most mages to not understand that, and so I expect them to either over-cure or under-cure when a Dancer is in party. ._.

[Coinspinner]

When I group with DNC as SCH I just Regen 1/2 and enfeeble/nuke. When somebody drops below a certain threshold (depends on target's TP moves) I'll throw a Cure. Also if the DNC himself is being targeted too frequently. TP healing is too good to let go to waste. From the time DNC learned Curing Waltz up till now at Crawlers' Nest it's worked out well, and given me the freedom to exploit both Arts. I'm looking forward to seeing how that duo works out at higher levels.

[Zempten]

At low lvls (I want to say up to 30 - after the mandies), we can main heal just fine. However at the same time we can also co-tank with another DNC up to around 40 as /NIN and bouncing hate back and forth. We can also pull easily at any lvl however I've found that imps are the worst thing for me to pull. This is mainly b/c only a few jobs can sleep them. So pulling early hurts and timing it just right is tricky.

Personally I felt that at lvl 50 was when my tanking abilities started to diminish. DDs just did too much to pull hate away with simple cures and wasting 2 Finishing Moves for Animated Flourish only to not have the mob change focus was pointless. I'd much rather had save the 2 Finishing Moves for Reverse Flourish or throw in a Violent Flourish for a little extra DMG and maybe Stun to even out the Finishing Moves. Of course, if your DDs are lacking you'll easily pull hate. It's really simple to observe.

I've also found that once Haste Samba is obtained and any Samba afterwards drains TP ALOT. As in, it's on a 1 min recast and 1 min duration. This prevents me from MAIN healing (as in I'm the only one) as it constantly eats up my TP. I've found that at this point on I needed a backup healer to keep things smoothly.

Now I'm stuck at lvl 70 and it's impossible for me to not have a backup healer. I keep my Sambas up all the time when the mob is @ the PT. I help Cure. I hardly ever WS b/c everytime I do something bad happens and I wished I had save my TP. However on that note, I can comfortably WS when there are 2 mages (1 never seems to be enough, regardless of job).

Now about my WS, they ranged from 200-600 in my time lvling DNC. 200 as in when I initially got DE and it slowly uped to 300/400. Now at 70, I can hit 400/500 consistantly and sometimes 600 (I'm guess it's because I criticalled some hits in DE).
------------------------------------------
About the DNC and SCH duo, I static myself with my girlfriend's SCH. It works out well. The thought that SCH can always back me up is a great relief and Accension + Regen II along with Drain Samba 3 in the works is GREAT for keeping HP up after some nasty -ga spell or AE move. Also a Divine Waltz from myside and a Curaga from SCH also helps alot against those flys that like to spam AE. The combo works pretty well. I would say like a RDM + WHM.

[Esoa]

Up to lvl 40 I expect the Dancer to provide a lot of the curing plus whatever buffs/debuffs they have. Not sure if they can main heal or if I would even want them to, though I have had very good parties with 2 dancers healing and no MP user.

[Celeal]

That is interesting ^^'

I haven't level up low ~ mid level job for a while, so I don't have much chance to see DNCs in action at those level (except 1 or 2 parties in Kazham).

Another question is why most DNC/NIN at high levels? In majority of times in ToAU, I seen the DNC/NIN's shaodws is wiped by AoE, instead of mob's single hits. In terms of tools or TP gain, in my humble opinion, there are better subjob choices.

[Zempten]

In an ideal setting, /WAR or even /SAM would be good subs. They work, I've tried . . .and then I got killed by incompetent tanks or DDs who pretend their Provoke is invisible.

I /NIN b/c I'd rather make more exp going out of a PT then less. It's really just that simple. Sure, there are times when I get a REALLY good PT then I'll just /WAR. Honestly, I like /WAR more then /SAM. Sure the Meditate is great and all, but I find I don't have problems with keeping TP up in most of the settings I'm in (there being a backup healer - you need one anyways b/c who knows if someone might die? do you really want to look around other PTs for a Raise?). Perhaps if I had to be the only single person healing, I'd /SAM just to be on the safe side. However, I always have at least 1 mage so it just boils down to /WAR or /NIN depending on the skill of the PT members. It's almost always /NIN.

What AEs are you talking about? The only AEs that I've come across that wipe my shadows are Imp's -ga spells I think in TOAU.

[Sabaron]

I partied with one Dancer thus far at 60th level (ish). They were subbing /NIN, which I thought was a bit of a waste, and they were conserving their weapon skills in favor of dances. This was on a Puk camp, so it made it much easier on our main healer who was a WHM. It also really perked up the MP pool of our Paladin tank. Admirable XP rate, though I would have preferred /SAM and a bit more WS action to increase the speed with so much healing already available from PLD/WAR, WHM/SMN, BRD/WHM (me), and DNC/NIN. DNC/SAM could easily have made it a bit better.

I see DNC filling the "inverse paladin" role as a Damage Dealing Healer in that their capacity for healing efficiently seems a bit greater than their capacity to do damage. Dancer complements the White Mage healer nicely since the White Mage has no self-refresh or convert and is reliant on an outside source to maintain mp levels. The DNC provides a very nice bridge in place of a red mage especially in AoE camps.

[Celeal]

...
What AEs are you talking about? The only AEs that I've come across that wipe my shadows are Imp's -ga spells I think in TOAU.

Imps and Sea Puks

[Sabaron]

Imps and Sea Puks

Sea Puk attacks don't completely wipe shadows, I think they take two IIRC (Wind Shear) or just go right through them (Obfuscate/Crosswind) without removing them.

[Celeal]

Sea Puk attacks don't completely wipe shadows, I think they take two IIRC (Wind Shear) or just go right through them (Obfuscate/Crosswind) without removing them.

I am not trying to say /nin has a problem. From the DNC I had seen in lvl 70+ does not pull much hate (compare to those MNKs, WARs, SAMs, etc)... in my humble opinion, it is a waste of gil to have shadows if hate is not an issue.

[Zempten]

For Puks, sometimes they eat my shadows and sometimes they go through it. I think it's a hit or miss.

Oh and the most important reason why we can't main heal (only me in a PT of all DDs) is b/c ALL of our cures are under a single category. So if you encounter a mob that says Cursed Sphere and keeps beating on the tank or whoever and then Cursed Sphere, what can you do? Or if you encounter an Imp that just Thundaga your PT and keeps beating on whoever, what can you do? Divine? Curing Waltz? This is what makes it most difficult/almost impossible to main heal.

Your right, it's just a safety precaution why I /NIN. I guess it's just b/c of my bad luck with my PTs. If I'm with my LS or people I really trust, I'd be /WAR on the fly or /SAM.

[Esoa]

I partied with one Dancer thus far at 60th level (ish). They were subbing /NIN, which I thought was a bit of a waste, and they were conserving their weapon skills in favor of dances. This was on a Puk camp, so it made it much easier on our main healer who was a WHM. It also really perked up the MP pool of our Paladin tank. Admirable XP rate, though I would have preferred /SAM and a bit more WS action to increase the speed with so much healing already available from PLD/WAR, WHM/SMN, BRD/WHM (me), and DNC/NIN. DNC/SAM could easily have made it a bit better.



A dancer probably wasn't appropriate for that PT setup. You can overload on support.

[LilithAngel]

Once I hit 40 on Dancer, TP didn't seem to be much of a problem, but I can see how /SAM would definately ramp that up. It would put the DNC into more of the DD/Support category, instead of just pure support. My only trick right now is trying to find that balance between accuracy for TP, and STR/Attack to do damage for said TP.

Looking forward to 46 and those +1 Bone Knives. :evil:

[Sabaron]

A dancer probably wasn't appropriate for that PT setup. You can overload on support.

I wouldn't really complain about a chain 5+ group generally, but yeah, I agree that we could've had something other than the Dancer. Replacing the WHM or the BRD wouldn't really be an option, so where does that leave Dancer?
As Zempten said, all of their cures are on the same timer--use one, lock out all. Dancer is a healer but not really a primary support healer--they can't function autonomously without subbing WHM to supplement their TP cures. I think of the Dancer as a DD first and a healer second. Their Damage Over Time is what produces their healing ability. I wouldn't invite a Dancer as a main healer. I would invite them as a DD with bonus support--their flexibility allows me to do other things with the rest of my party like go for more specialized DD jobs. I think Dancer's role as a main healer isn't really viable except circumstantially, but PUP/DNC using Soulsoother is a generally acceptable main healer role. I'm more inclined to encourage DNC to use TP to attack as well as provide support. People want it to be a White Mage--it's not. People want it to be a Paladin--it's not. It's a Dancer. It's a DD with a minor in healing.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Dancer's Role to the common sense player: A TP based healer with the ability to also enfeeble.

Dancer's Role to idiots: A tank past 37.

Dancer's Roll for Corsairs: Hopefully its Haste. Real Haste, not the haste DNC got.

Still waiting for the craze to die off a little, there are so many DNCs seeking right I practically want to cry because I want to invite something that really tanks or DDs. What really irks me about DNC is as a mage they never use the magic resistance down Step.

Funny though how everyone said this would be the "gay" job and now everyone is levelling it. Too bad they're not giving a shred of consideration to its DD potential via /SAM at 60+. As always, its /NIN, /NIN, /NIN as far as the eye can see.

[LilithAngel]

I'm gonna give /DRG and its appropriate gear a try on my 42 DNC today, see how that works for me. Perhaps it'll help fill in the gap between that and 46 when I can start picking up daggers that actually start to matter. Everything from 25 til now has been nice, but I'm ready for something a bit beefier now.

[Lanih]

So far (lv38 now) I've had so much fun playing DNC. I've seen many different PT-setups, though because of the craze most parties have 2 DNC's, which I actually like a lot.

Anyway, yesterday I was partying without another DNC for the longest time, and I finally saw first-hand the shortcomings of a DNC. I had known them in theory, but actually realizing I just can't do everything at once was really a needed lecture ;) We had a WHM in the party, so I could've just concentrated on Steps and waltzing the slow-effects away (Crawler's Nest PT), but out of habit I just basically did everything in the beginning. I was always at 0-15tp at the start of a battle.

After a couple of battles me and the WHM were working nicely together; no over-curing from either one of us, and we decided I'd take care of the slow unless it hit more than two players, and the WHM would take care of poisona-ing and keeping regens on. We ended up chaining like mad and never needing to stop for resting, much like with two DNC.

Communication is key. DNC can be stretched a bit, but if you do it too much without other support, it's not gonna work out that well.

After 40, with Reverse Flourish, and 60+ with /SAM, I can see this becoming a little less painful, but due to the shared timers on erase and cures alone DNC main healing just isn't gonna work that well. Even if everything went smoothly, there will be times when the shit hits the fan and DNC is not really the best day saver at that point. Keeping that from happening in the first place is what we do best, with another support/healing job.

So please don't make your friendly neighborhood DNC main heal without knowing the risks. I realize this can be situational, though.

[VZX]

Main healer with good DD capability.
DRG best Penta was low 1k with SA

Here's the highest DE I got from last night

[Zempten]

That's a really nice DE. May I ask your gear for WSing please?

[VZX]

That's using my TP setup lol
I think it was full hit, Chaos Roll w/o DRK and Dia II ,as well as box step lv3 ( as shown)
I ate mithkabob

[Zempten]

Oh, still nice regardless.

[Arris]

I wouldn't really complain about a chain 5+ group generally, but yeah, I agree that we could've had something other than the Dancer. Replacing the WHM or the BRD wouldn't really be an option, so where does that leave Dancer?
As Zempten said, all of their cures are on the same timer--use one, lock out all. Dancer is a healer but not really a primary support healer--they can't function autonomously without subbing WHM to supplement their TP cures. I think of the Dancer as a DD first and a healer second. Their Damage Over Time is what produces their healing ability. I wouldn't invite a Dancer as a main healer. I would invite them as a DD with bonus support--their flexibility allows me to do other things with the rest of my party like go for more specialized DD jobs. I think Dancer's role as a main healer isn't really viable except circumstantially, but PUP/DNC using Soulsoother is a generally acceptable main healer role. I'm more inclined to encourage DNC to use TP to attack as well as provide support. People want it to be a White Mage--it's not. People want it to be a Paladin--it's not. It's a Dancer. It's a DD with a minor in healing.

I totally have to agree with you. My dance is 68 and It's nearly impossible to main cure. I saw somewhere about DNC/NIN being a waste...I don't understand that. Really you have to play DNC to understand. The more TP you get the more viable you are to a PT. It's the same ol chatter about what to sub for what... anybody remember what BRDs used to sub? Yeah prime example. I say use what works best for pt setup like they do now. Used to be unheard of subbing /NIN under all the jobs but now it's ok.

[Lmnop]

I saw somewhere about DNC/NIN being a waste...I don't understand that. Really you have to play DNC to understand. The more TP you get the more viable you are to a PT.

TP gain of /nin is a moot point -- Double Attack will always at the very least, keep up (I imagine always outdo what /nin does for your tp... but I'm not gonna think about the math so I'll settle with "keep up"). And Samurai will blow both subs out of the water. However...

Now that this thread has some talky, I'll bring up that I don't think dnc as a tank is too bad. I don't see why that makes me a moron. All of the NIN-specific tanking gear is for HNM, anyway. Dnc/nin is much harder to pull off, but statistically, it's there. I've been doing it, but I'm only 26.

My sister had a 60ish DNC doing Reverse Flourish -> DE all night. That's cool and all, and she was impressed with his damage. However... if that keeps up and we push for that, we have yet another DD on our hands. Before you know it, they'll all be using Haste Samba for a slight edge in damage over the wonderfully potent higher tier Drain Sambas.

[Celeal]

For low ~ mid level DNC tanking, isn't DNC/BLU have more to offer?

Low ~ mid level DNC/BLU tank:

Curing Waltz
Cocoon
Animated Flourish
Drain Samba

Only Cocoon is being used. Fill in rest of Blue magic slot with VIT+ or CHR+ to raise the potency of Curing Waltz. Since Cocoon last for a 1 min with a low mp cost, MP recovery is non-issue.

I had solo T mob from level 22 to almost 24 in Korrola (spelling?) Tunnel as DNC/BLU without any issue (even the mobs spam me with Jet Stream, Attack Down, Acc down, Dex down, link, etc). If this weekend I have a chance to party as DNC, I will give DNC/BLU tanking a try.

[Eiyoko]

Main healer with good DD capability.
DRG best Penta was low 1k with SA

Here's the highest DE I got from last night

*looks at the picture* You were so good, you made that guy level!

Sorry, couldn't resist.

People have been shouting for "WHM or DNC" lately. I guess we finally have another main healer instead of SMN and RDM. Yay.

[Lmnop]

For low ~ mid level DNC tanking, isn't DNC/BLU have more to offer?

Low ~ mid level DNC/BLU tank:

Curing Waltz
Cocoon
Animated Flourish
Drain Samba

Only Cocoon is being used. Fill in rest of Blue magic slot with VIT+ or CHR+ to raise the potency of Curing Waltz. Since Cocoon last for a 1 min with a low mp cost, MP recovery is non-issue.

I had solo T mob from level 22 to almost 24 in Korrola (spelling?) Tunnel as DNC/BLU without any issue (even the mobs spam me with Jet Stream, Attack Down, Acc down, Dex down, link, etc). If this weekend I have a chance to party as DNC, I will give DNC/BLU tanking a try.


Wow. This is really interesting. Unfortunately, I do not even have BLU unlocked yet. My current plan of action has been DNC -> 37, unlock BLU -> 37. I'd love to try this, but I don't think my "static" would be too happy with me leveling another job -- one that'll take longer than DNC, at that.

For me, though, I've been subbing NIN because well... it's good. Very good. If you look around enough, it's very easy to find posts of me bashing thf/nin, war/nin, whatever/nin because it's so overused. But DNC just fits well. My situation:

My sister's NIN is main tank, but she shares hate with me. I have higher evasion than her, I have more hate tools, but I have less HP than her despite being Elvaan to her Mithra, as well as lower defense. This makes me quite perfect for spiking my hate (very easy) to get mob's attention and holding it while she does her thing. I currently have 27 more evasion than a naked Ninja (that's like 9 over a NIN fully dressed for evasion, and about 12 over my sister), so it's pretty easy to blink a mob to death.

I've main tanked when my sister went down, in subsequent fights while she was weakened, (she's only died once in 27 levels >.>), when she was afk, etc. It works out really well, assuming I'm primed. Indeed, the biggest issue with dnc tanking is that missing your steps means missing an opportunity for provokes. But if you can get started with a less efficient tank... say... mage healer wasting all their MP on a war/nin or a Sam/war, after 2 fights, full rest. Then you could pretty much chain indefinitely (with 5 FMs stored up, you get enough buffer for missing Steps that it's not so much concern). With a decent tp pool built up, it's not terribly hard to pace yourself to your rate of gain.

dnc tanking is difficult, though. All the complexity of a pld/nin, lower DPS, more conditions -- Steps for enmity, cures for enmity, keep an eye on your FM count, trying to get dedicated mage not to overcure everyone so you can make handsome efficient Divine Waltzes...

But back to dnc/blu... I imagine this would be better for a main tank than dnc/nin. For the same reasons as always... after 6 shadows, things aren't so wonderful. Also, Utsu cast time is the #1 reason for /sighing at watching "Drain Daze effect wears off" just before the scythe swing that would get a hefty Drain from it. Also, occasional Aspir Samba would be cool.

[VZX]

Here's another one I got on the other night as 67 DNC.
I think this was roughly 31~32% def down (Dia II + frightful roar + 2x box step) and single minuet

[Mouser]

Going from 70-73 as DNC in the Mire and having to adapt to dealing with Amnesia, I've had to experiment more with the DD side of DNC. Previously I had played it pretty much as a straight healer/debuffer, usually co-healing with an MP-based healer. In the Mire though, I switched to focusing mainly on keeping sambas up when possible, tossing out WS when I could, and curing in the brief seconds when I'm not Amnesiaed. Just as an aside, the Mire really sucks for DNC.

In regards to sub, I've been /SAM once (at the parties request) and it was fun, but most of the time, I've been /NIN for off hand stat boosts, and now with Suppa and Dusk gear, it's seems good for TP gain. Also, as parties start to switch more into merit-mode strategies, it helps to have shadows for when hate bounces to me.