DRG/NIN? O.o [Archive] - Final Fantasy XI :: Dreams in Vana'diel

Celeal

01-03-2008, 07:56 AM

I get why so many people hate on /NIN, but I dont get why many people also deny the usefulness of it.

Afterall, if it wasnt useful, it wouldnt be so popular?

I had a merit party just after the buff as NIN DRG DRG DRG BRD RDM, me being the RDM. All DRG's bar one subbed SAM.

Maybe they dont know how to do their job or w/e, but they were taking a serious bashing. S-TE didnt do a lot. After I continously sank my entire MP pool in 2 fights, the other 2 went on /NIN and it was hello chains after that.

So, I guess its down to the players. /SAM sometimes isnt enough if the mob is on you for longer than 2 or 3 hits.

If the DD work together and all launch their WS in a close interval of time, the mob should die within seconds without giving the mob a chance to do serious damage to the party. This technique is used by the DD in the old days traditional parties, when there is NO SATA, the DD make sure their spike DD will KO the mob (usually in the form of Skillchain + MB, or the DD best WS and sequence of JA, etc).

DRG x 3 + NIN in your party, plus a BRD, I expect NO less then 5k damage from WS if they all use WS about the same time (if you count the pet's dmg as well). If that does not finish off the mob, that is what Jumps, High Jumps, Mediate is for --- to finish it off, or Seigen + Third Eye, Super Jump to reduce damage taken and a few Cures from the back-lines to keep the chain going.

Seriously, I understand WAR/NIN, DRK/NIN, RNG/NIN, MNK/NIN is "well-rounded," but DRG unlike other DD, DRG/SAM has enough tools to bridge the gap.

hongman

01-03-2008, 07:58 AM

If the DD work together

Need I say anymore?

Celeal

01-03-2008, 08:03 AM

LOLz, level 75 "dunes" party ... Orz

I have seen DD/NIN as an MP-sink or dies too due to lack of skill/common-sense.

Vyuru

01-03-2008, 08:18 AM

Whoever told you to /NIN needs to be shot in the face.

Repeatedly.

Like, right now.

And then raised to be shot some more, maybe toss in a Barrage and Eagle Eye Shot.

I get why so many people hate on /NIN, but I dont get why many people also deny the usefulness of it.

Afterall, if it wasnt useful, it wouldnt be so popular?

Because it stats in Fencingkitty's character information that she is lvl 66, and thus doesn't gain from either Seigan or Utsu: Ni.

Also, it is popular because most of the jobs that use it also have decent-good stats in one handed weapons, the only two jobs that don't have good stats in one handed weapons would be Sam and Drg. Well, Mnk and Pup as well, but they are fairly strong on their own and don't really need a DD sub to boost their damage.

1: Virtually hate free self curing in a pinch, while retaining the offensive capabilities of Wyvern's Breath.

While true, the healing breath trigger with a mixed wyvern and AF helm is what, 1/3 your max hp? Which is only 1-2 hits from the normal exp level mob assuming no defense food is eaten? I'd rather go drg/rdm myself. Also if she is leveling off of those fire crawler things then since it's an AoE special attack she'll still get hit.

End result IMO:

Tanks, and jobs able to tank, should start tanking again and you should build a PROPER party setup instead of some asinine, "we don't need no healer" party setup that won't ever work.

If you're having problems with hate control either invite a Thf or failing that ask someone to come /thf for TA.

Oh wait, that'd involve working as a team, which from what I gather from the OP was unlikely to happen.

fencingkitty

01-03-2008, 08:22 AM

Replies interspersed. If I abuse the formatting, apologies. My replies are the italics.
While I can see people's rationale behind swearing off Drg/Nin, I can appreciate why it's being more common to ask for it as a support job.
1: Virtually hate free self curing in a pinch, while retaining the offensive capabilities of Wyvern's Breath.
But for a hybrid wyvern isn't that casting ninjitsu at 33% (provided I swap to my armet) and as far as I know, no ninjitsu is fast casting. Not clear on how that would save me if I'm really that low on something hitting me that hard.
2: A solid defensive barrier.. yes, I am well aware that Seigan is good, however, Utsusemi is guaranteed avoidance while giving the DD's who get hit full emnity loss as though they weren't mitigating any damage at all.
Valid point, no arguments there.
3: Because of the emnity shrugging effect of Utsusemi, DD's can hit much harder, and subsequently kill monsters much quicker without draining the support sides resources.
I don't know about hitting harder. In addition to critting more, my weapon skills typically were double what the drg/nin's were when I was in a party w/one as drg/war. And if you're being smart about it and not spamming penta everytime it's up (IE: going when super jump is up, mob is almost dead-50%, after solid hate build from tank) you shouldn't need to rely on shadows IMO.
Yes, /War and /Sam are definately more offensive, but - they lose the above. Most of the time I play Drg, it's /War or /Sam - but, on mobs that hate will be sketchy - I can appreciate why people say /Nin. Especially if using tanks who are slower to gain hate but can keep it solidly, such as Pld/Nin or Nin/Rdm.
/Sam doesn't get Seigan till 70 if my memory serves me correctly, so you have one Third Eye, or 3 Shadows prior to that.
It's less about having no hate mechanics, but trying to keep damage output solid, while not draining all the support resources beyond their capability to maintain decent exp chains.
I guess part of my questioning is why does it seem like tanks have a harder time keeping up with just standard tp'ing, nevermind weaponskilling. Is the difference in damage output vs. the tools at pld and nin's hands just too great?
(apologies for weird gap/timing in posts. posting from work ^^;)

Celeal

01-03-2008, 08:33 AM

fencingkitty

01-03-2008, 08:43 AM

or full turtle PLD.

Which would be why the PLD/NIN was the most successful tank I've had in the last few parties?

Spinnthrift

01-03-2008, 09:37 AM

Replies interspersed. If I abuse the formatting, apologies. My replies are the italics.

I guess part of my questioning is why does it seem like tanks have a harder time keeping up with just standard tp'ing, nevermind weaponskilling. Is the difference in damage output vs. the tools at pld and nin's hands just too great?
(apologies for weird gap/timing in posts. posting from work ^^;)

Don't worry about the formatting... I read what you wrote kinda. ^^

If I can give you an example of something I'm levelling tanking right now... I'm levelling Ninja up for giggles.

Now, I've a moderate set of gear that I can access. A fair amount of +emnity gear, and what I would consider decent for tanking with (and I gearswap every few seconds to optimise my emnity depending on what I'm doing). I've levelled as Nin/Rdm and Nin/War with people in my LS levelling up other jobs. My current problem is, I party with a Ranger and a Dark a lot. Both of whom go /Nin just to survive - as they know, that even with the tools I have, my absolute best, can't hold hate against them.

At lvl 53, they were breaking 2k combined WS's against Colibri. There is absolutely nothing I could do to hold hate off either of them then. Combine that in with a Drg who's putting out consistent 600 Penta's and I'm glad they're all /Nin. We survived, mostly as we're all on Vent together and able to yell out stuff to help control hate, but to generate the exp we were, had we had more conventional sj's through those levels - we'd have had more than the one death we did, which was mine.

Celeal: I've tried to adapt to the new system as Nin, and with some success it works, but it also means sometimes as a tank - we won't have the perfect hate control of the pre-ToAU era.

Fencing: Reason why I said about hate free healing.. I try and use the time you're taking a hit to get hate back on the mob, when hate is recovered, it's often a little tenuous at that moment in time. Assured as a Nin right now, there are times when while I can hold hate virtually perfectly until the moment the DD's open all WS's to explode it, there are times when sometimes it all goes fscked. I'm not advocating the use of Drg/Nin entirely, but I wouldn't throw it out the window either. Like everything in this game, it's situational.

Perhaps having Vent on constantly with my parties allows us more freedom to take what people deem as bad subs. My guess about your Pld/Nin - he probably had emnity merits already. I know my current Ranger partner does and he makes me work like a dog holding hate off him. At the levels you were speaking of though, the difference between what a Nin and a Pld can do hate wise and the sheer punishment a well geared DD have at their disposal are miles apart. Later on, the gap does diminish though.

Celeal

01-03-2008, 10:40 AM

Which would be why the PLD/NIN was the most successful tank I've had in the last few parties?

I am not in your parties, so I cannot form any accurate conclusion ^^; But one thing I am sure, is that job-subjob combo is just one aspect. The party that knows how to play with the rule of the game, wins. On the other hand, if the party does not perform, it is not going to work.

As for PLD/NIN in your parties, a changes in PT setup, camp location, mob or level range, may break the party. In general PLD/WAR can adapt to most exp. parties settings. The requirement of PLD/NIN and PLD/WAR is different: I can imagine the front-line in your PLD/NIN party all DD/NIN and each battle last for a short time. However, the risk is higher, if something goes wrong.

Eji Kazuma

01-03-2008, 11:20 AM

Hrmm... as a 75 Ninja, I can understand them asking you to sub Nin. My Girl Friend is a 75 DRG and she has a 75 DRG buddy that she likes to merit with, naturally I have to build merit PT's with both of them and our brother who is a 75 DRK... So poor lil'ol Ninja me gets his ass kicked in hate control. In a meripo I can see a reasoning behind DRG/NIN, because recent updates have made DRG a much more solid dmg dealer, atleast in my opinion.

DRG has a few things working against them compared to other DD’s the main one that I tend to notice is that a lot of their armor has +enmity on it. Which can make things difficult on a Ninja who for the most part only has about +3-9 enmity available from gear.

The best resolution I’ve found with this is a simple /THF. If you /THF you can set hate on the tank, just get another pt member to pull hate for a moment and SATA. With the added enmity from gear you put that much back onto the tank. And that’s that problem solved.

Granted, /WAR is usually a preference among Dragoon’s either that or /SAM. But I can tell you in reality and in an endgame setting you will be more useful /THF then anything else. Especially if your LS, PT uses Ninja tanks.

LilithAngel

01-03-2008, 02:48 PM

DRG has a few things working against them compared to other DD’s the main one that I tend to notice is that a lot of their armor has +enmity on it. Which can make things difficult on a Ninja who for the most part only has about +3-9 enmity available from gear.

Unless the Dragoon is wearing full Barone and a Warwolf Belt, there's not a whole lot (if any at all) gear a Dragoon can wear that has +enmity on it. A properly balanced and geared Dragoon, however, wouldn't be wearing full Barone in the first place.

As for /NIN vs other SJs: The main problem with they Hybrid Wyvern is the 33% HP trigger. 33% is only 1-2 hits from being dead for a DD-oriented Dragoon, and most jutsu, even Ni level, isn't gonna be fast enough to recast when going against the most common merit-level mobs. If an AoE happens to come at that moment, then you're gonna be looking pretty silly as you're accepting the R1 that's gonna be coming from your RDM main healer. If you're dealing with Silencing mobs (and at merit levels, that'd be Imps, who AoE spam that shit), then that's even more resources from the back line spent. Sure, you could make the argument that you bring your own Echo Drops, but seriously, do you think the average player has that much gil to be wasting on 5 stacks of that stuff per party? Imps eat through a stack quicker than a hot knife through butter, and you will run out before the party does, so you'll be on the mage's MP once again as you're taking hits. Mages tend to be stingy/stupid with Silence these days, btw.

To be brutally honest, I've yet to see any situation or argument (other than maybe, maybe Dynamis Lord) where /NIN was any more efficient/superior than /anynonpetjob. At merits, too much can happen that'll disable /NIN's only claim to fame, jsut as it can to any /JOB, so I don't see a reason not to just go full fledged /DD and play smart about it. The game will eventually get you, and /NIN won't change it much; it just swaps strategies to get you. :evil:

BTW, yes, I have tried /NIN. No, I didn't like it, for the fact that I lost way too much output for shadows. Did it keep me alive? No, for all the exact reasons I listed above. I just ended up swapping to /SAM. Miraculously, the party got a lot better after I did. Go figure. :rolleyes:

Spinnthrift

01-03-2008, 03:29 PM

Unless the Dragoon is wearing full Barone and a Warwolf Belt, there's not a whole lot (if any at all) gear a Dragoon can wear that has +enmity on it. A properly balanced and geared Dragoon, however, wouldn't be wearing full Barone in the first place.

Homam Gear. Haste and Emnity. Askar - Haste and Emnity. Barone - Emnity. And Barone should be a swap piece, if you're a properly balanced and geared Dragoon.

As for /NIN vs other SJs: The main problem with they Hybrid Wyvern is the 33% HP trigger. 33% is only 1-2 hits from being dead for a DD-oriented Dragoon, and most jutsu, even Ni level, isn't gonna be fast enough to recast when going against the most common merit-level mobs. If an AoE happens to come at that moment, then you're gonna be looking pretty silly as you're accepting the R1 that's gonna be coming from your RDM main healer.

As a Ninja, I'm well aware of what you've just said, but re-read up. Sometimes that beating is enough time for us to grab hate back, and instead of a huge emnity Cure IV, a hate free Wyvern Breath is enough to stabilize while running that knife edge. It's the difference between a DS Cure IV after Convert and a Regen and /heal over time after Convert. One is riskier for certain, but has less emnity overall involved.

If you're dealing with Silencing mobs (and at merit levels, that'd be Imps, who AoE spam that shit), then that's even more resources from the back line spent. Sure, you could make the argument that you bring your own Echo Drops, but seriously, do you think the average player has that much gil to be wasting on 5 stacks of that stuff per party? Imps eat through a stack quicker than a hot knife through butter, and you will run out before the party does, so you'll be on the mage's MP once again as you're taking hits. Mages tend to be stingy/stupid with Silence these days, btw.

Short answer: Yes. Long answer: Also - YES, just explaining something like go farm if you can't afford to level. When I'm burning my hard earned cash to exp well, you should be too. But in more detail.

To be brutally honest, I've yet to see any situation or argument (other than maybe, maybe Dynamis Lord) where /NIN was any more efficient/superior than /anynonpetjob. At merits, too much can happen that'll disable /NIN's only claim to fame, jsut as it can to any /JOB, so I don't see a reason not to just go full fledged /DD and play smart about it. The game will eventually get you, and /NIN won't change it much; it just swaps strategies to get you. :evil:

To be brutally honest - your remarks in the haste thread, made me think you don't experience things like double bard parties, and more. For the reasons I've already explained, it helps survival and resource consumption in situation. Even if you think I should be laughed at. It still helps survival. A few good examples. Nyzul and Salvage - /Nin has merits, Limbus we use /Nin Drgs too. We don't use /Nin in Sky though. Exp also - has times when it suits the situation. Not that we don't espouse the virtues of other SJ choices, we just don't tell people that say, it's a valid SJ bad things. Like everything, it's situational. I am in NO WAY saying it's the be all and end all, but like /Whm, /Rdm, /Sam, /War, /Blu, /Thf etc etc.. it has it's uses.

BTW, yes, I have tried /NIN. No, I didn't like it, for the fact that I lost way too much output for shadows. Did it keep me alive? No, for all the exact reasons I listed above. I just ended up swapping to /SAM. Miraculously, the party got a lot better after I did. Go figure. :rolleyes:

It worked for you switching to /Sam, great! I have no issues with that, but you're not listening to the rest. Read back your old post that said - with the damage you do, if you had really solid haste gear and that a decent setup, you'd be tanking the whole fight? I'll remind you:

However, in any merit party I end up in, that much Haste, combined with the amount of damage I already do, means that I will tank each fight. This much I've already proven time and again. Hopefully the fights end quickly, because hovering around the 50-60% Haste brackets in a job that has only so many defensive options is indeed dangerous.

In what is fairly standard for some... we're saying - this is how you can mitigate your tanking abilities, because we can hit crazy chains anyways, slowing your damage output down a jot, while making your survival and the drain on the healers less is great. We're not saying it's the best SJ in the world, just it's not as crap as people are making out.

Celeal

01-03-2008, 06:35 PM

Spinnthrift

01-03-2008, 06:55 PM

Since Spinnthrift from above post brings up DRG/WHM, DRG/BLU, etc...

Instead of DRG/NIN, does it make more sense to DRG/WHM (with sanction auto-refresh) and keep Blink + Stoneskin up, or DRG/RDM and Blink + Stoneskin + Phalanx, or DRG/BLU and Cocoon + Metallic Body, and let the Wyvern do the curing?

Sometimes yes, but you lose the offensive breath completely, instead of the partial (self cure only). As a backup healer - /mage on Drg is great. I'm not knocking it, but what I am saying repeatedly is don't totally ignore a sub, because you don't like Utsusemi.

It's like you said previously Celeal, about how you found Pld/Nin to be a weak DD/backup healer and not a strong main tank in meripo - whereas Fencing has found it really solid as a tank, it's situational to your gear and setup.

It's not cut and dry is what I've been saying all along. Sometimes Drg/Nin will be optimal - regardless of how many people say shoot me and or I should die in a fire etc. Sometimes Drg/War will be, sometimes Drg/Sam will be. Sometimes - (heaven forbid) Drg/Drk will be. Etc, etc, etc... to quote a BG meme: "Shit is situational".

LilithAngel

01-03-2008, 08:26 PM

Well I guess I'm just shit out of luck since I don't have double Bard parties just waiting for me to log on in 4 in the morning whenever I feel like meriting. Amirite?

As far as the little "and more" comment goes, you'd be better served asking what my experiences are before you assume you know enough to make such comments in the first place. Everything I've said is from the POV of someone that does shit on their own, with the strategy that there isn't that glorious double bard setup every time one parties, that all your resources are stemming from you're own efforts, not some well-funded elite EGLS. You know, the common player, not the uber-decked out, "I have all +1 relic/nyzul/sky/limus swaps" players. As some of the posters on this board have seen first hand, I by no means skimp on my efforts, but seriously, sometimes it's just enough that I even bother to hold up my end in a party.

But that's neither here nor there. This is a discussion about /NIN's viability as a SJ vs other possibilities. So far, I've yet to still see any valid arguments (yours included, Spin) that a situation exists where /NIN is good that another SJ couldn't be better.

The problem with carrying around that many Echo Drops is just that; you're carrying around that much medicine for a job that doesn't natively need it. So you're saying that I need to spend as much as you just because you do? Because you chose your job, and not I? Yeah, ok, GTFO.

Oh wait, I will concede the one piece of Homam and the ever-so-common, everyone-loves-to-give-to-Dragoons Askar have enmity, and that they're good, but how many Dragoons vs how many of the other jobs they're tagged for do you see running around on Kujata? Let me help you out with that: you can count them on two hands. NA, JP, and EU. Wait, mebbie a toe or two, it's been a while since I cared to look.

Mebbie they're more common on Midgar, however, like those double Bard parties. :rolleyes:

Spinnthrift

01-04-2008, 04:00 AM

Well I guess I'm just shit out of luck since I don't have double Bard parties just waiting for me to log on in 4 in the morning whenever I feel like meriting. Amirite?

Make your own parties? Merit with friends? Set up groups to merit with? I dunno.. I don't tend to worry much about meriting that much, I'm usually busy.

As far as the little "and more" comment goes, you'd be better served asking what my experiences are before you assume you know enough to make such comments in the first place. Everything I've said is from the POV of someone that does shit on their own, with the strategy that there isn't that glorious double bard setup every time one parties, that all your resources are stemming from you're own efforts, not some well-funded elite EGLS. You know, the common player, not the uber-decked out, "I have all +1 relic/nyzul/sky/limus swaps" players. As some of the posters on this board have seen first hand, I by no means skimp on my efforts, but seriously, sometimes it's just enough that I even bother to hold up my end in a party.

Strangely - you were the one decrying Barone gear. I just said it should be there as a swap piece. And having looked at FFXIAH - it's cheaper on your server than it is over here. 20k for a piece of swap gear that you'll use on your favourite job seems like a great deal for me, considering for WS's, the much more expensive +5 Str rings are advocated by many. And yes, as for my - and more comment, I often think from both perspectives, having jobs with both ranges of gear. Some well geared enough to make me formidable, others - about average, and I can still safely say that when you say:

Let's see, if I ever came across a BRD that was capable of thinking along those lines, and a mage that paid attention to Haste...

Your experiences must be rediculously limited if your exp support can't give you haste as a DD... either that or you're such an mp hog that they physically can't support you and keep chains going. Since most pickup mages I've come across can handle a decent haste cycle and a lot of bards really like March. Not assuming you've had the joys of SV March x2, SV Min x2, SV Mad x2 at the same time. At that point btw - you really do want /Sam or /War or /Drk on Drg for Dynamis Lord.

But that's neither here nor there. This is a discussion about /NIN's viability as a SJ vs other possibilities. So far, I've yet to still see any valid arguments (yours included, Spin) that a situation exists where /NIN is good that another SJ couldn't be better.

I have, repeatedly. But I'll do it again for you since you can't get your head out of your arse. Utsusemi = guaranteed mitigation. Seigan/Blink/Etc - not guaranteed. If you're able to pull hate with Drg, then Utsusemi is a worthwhile defensive option. End of story. Not the best overall option, not the worst either. It's situational.

The problem with carrying around that many Echo Drops is just that; you're carrying around that much medicine for a job that doesn't natively need it. So you're saying that I need to spend as much as you just because you do? Because you chose your job, and not I? Yeah, ok, GTFO.

I've not said you need to spend as much as me on levelling, what I have said, is that if you can't afford the basics such as Echo Drops if you're fighting Imps (and what serious meripo fights Imps???), then it's time to stop leeching and go make some cash (especially since you're not tanking - it's a defensive shield that can buy the tank time to re-establish hate, and you can often wait out the silence). If you aren't eating meat on Colibri - you're leeching unless you're the tank (if you have a tank that is).

Oh wait, I will concede the one piece of Homam and the ever-so-common, everyone-loves-to-give-to-Dragoons Askar have enmity, and that they're good, but how many Dragoons vs how many of the other jobs they're tagged for do you see running around on Kujata? Let me help you out with that: you can count them on two hands. NA, JP, and EU. Wait, mebbie a toe or two, it's been a while since I cared to look.

Mebbie they're more common on Midgar, however, like those double Bard parties. :rolleyes:

I don't know about Kajuta, but 2/3's of our LS Drg's have at least one piece of Homam, along with our Drk's, and a couple of our Thf's. Askar - it's from Nyzul, which a bunch of friends could do, you don't even need great gear for it, just good friends who work well together. It's not that difficult, just needs co-ordination and a modicum of intelligence. Hell.. I don't think we even use a tank in our static (Drk, Thf, Whm, Brd, Blm and Brd).

While I've been typing this as well, I've thought of some more benefits as well. Assuming for a moment, that you're fighting say Lolibri. Drg's fave merit mob. /Nin on all melee allows the Rdm or Whm to Dia III/Dia II your merit mobs defense down enough to reduce the attack needed for 2.0 cRatio by as much as 116 (See here for reference) (http://www.bluegartrls.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=16214) without risk of it hitting the DD's using /Nin but still giving the Rdm the chance to have it reflected back on themselves to prevent Sleep/Lullaby's affecting them.. So - not only will you have greater mitigation of damage, but your whole party's output can be increased without risk of getting the melee Dia'd and subsequently increasing the damage they take from the mobs. Hell, you could toss in Gravity there too for increased kill speed. That there is a situation where /Nin affects damage output positively (across the party, not just your own numbers, and yes - party numbers is more important than self numbers).

Please read what I'm saying.. if I invited a Drg to exp as /Sam or /War, that'd be shiny, I am well aware of each jobs capabilities. Likewise - I wouldn't overlook Drg/Nin as there are other options for optimising that I can take. Simple really.

I can find points and reference as to when and why things work till the cows come home. And I'll say it again. I AM NOT SAYING /NIN IS THE BEST SJ TO USE. I AM JUSTIFYING WHY IT'S A VIABLE SJ CHOICE. And I have given valid reasons, and could find more if I really had to.

IfritnoItazura

01-04-2008, 05:24 AM

I've not said you need to spend as much as me on levelling, what I have said, is that if you can't afford the basics such as Echo Drops if you're fighting Imps (and what serious meripo fights Imps???), then it's time to stop leeching and go make some cash (especially since you're not tanking - it's a defensive shield that can buy the tank time to re-establish hate, and you can often wait out the silence). If you aren't eating meat on Colibri - you're leeching unless you're the tank (if you have a tank that is).

From the perspective of a RDM/WHM who was stuck as the sole mage in Imp parties more times than he cared for, I actually appreciate it when DRG come to camp as /SAM instead of /NIN--seriously don't need another person to Silena--just stay on Seigan/Third Eye full time. :biggrin:

While I've been typing this as well, I've thought of some more benefits as well. Assuming for a moment, that you're fighting say Lolibri. Drg's fave merit mob. /Nin on all melee allows the Rdm or Whm to Dia III/Dia II
I am only able to Dia II critters consistently when things are flowing smoothly--the right kill speed, melees not taking a large and unpredictable damges, etc. Otherwise, I'd much rather keep an MP buffer for cures.

* * *

Total tangent, but can a PLD + THF + DRG + DD + BRD + RDM party hit chain#100 in Greater Colibri camp? For once, I'd like to have some help with curing (and wake me up when I'm slept), and not constantly worry about having enough MP for Cure IV twice in a roll because there's always that yahoo-DD who think it's fun to WS at the start of the fight and drain half of my MP bar (esp. when I have less than half a bar).

Is that set up good enough for DRG/SAM to stay on Hasso full time, without losing his attack food? (Or DRG/WAR fully using Berserk?)

Kittyneko

01-04-2008, 05:46 AM

It seems like people can no longer tank properly. I guess people have been playing without tanks for too long.

Don't forget the actual cause, the mobs in the Aht Uhrgan areas. Especially colibri's. Because of their low defense they're quite hard to tank, but they're so easily killed in first place, thus making it more proffitable for partys to just have the melee cut a little bit in dealing damage, but yet also taking less damage, allowing the party to pull and kill (nearly) endlessly, not needing downtimes for mages to rest.

Spinnthrift

01-04-2008, 07:14 AM

From the perspective of a RDM/WHM who was stuck as the sole mage in Imp parties more times than he cared for, I actually appreciate it when DRG come to camp as /SAM instead of /NIN--seriously don't need another person to Silena--just stay on Seigan/Third Eye full time. :biggrin:

Guys - I think no one is reading what I'm saying other than it's not a totally wasted SJ. Maybe I'm just far too used to seeing an AoE silence going off, and a flurry of echo drops being popped and thinking that's fairly normal from everyone that can cast a spell.

I am only able to Dia II critters consistently when things are flowing smoothly--the right kill speed, melees not taking a large and unpredictable damages, etc. Otherwise, I'd much rather keep an MP buffer for cures.

What you've written there agrees entirely with what I've stated (albeit that may not have been your intention). I am not implying anything other than people who slate a specific sj for the sake of their own yahoo epenis are morons. Maybe I think too much when putting parties together or when invited to parties. Maybe I go too far in having various sets of gear to wear depending on what the rest of the setup is. All I've said in this thread are: Reasons why not to discount a specific choice. I've not said it's the OMGWTFBBQ SJ of all time. Someone point out where I have please.

* * *

Total tangent, but can a PLD + THF + DRG + DD + BRD + RDM party hit chain#100 in Greater Colibri camp?

There is no reason why that setup (job combinations) cannot hit high chains at any camp other than perhaps KRT (even that can be done with Bourdonasse and Titan's Cudgel setup - I suspect, although I'd personally probably put a geared Whm/Nin into the third DD spot). Only thing that really limits your potential is your gear/skill/merits if your setup is viable.

For once, I'd like to have some help with curing (and wake me up when I'm slept), and not constantly worry about having enough MP for Cure IV twice in a roll because there's always that yahoo-DD who think it's fun to WS at the start of the fight and drain half of my MP bar (esp. when I have less than half a bar).

Is that set up good enough for DRG/SAM to stay on Hasso full time, without losing his attack food? (Or DRG/WAR fully using Berserk?)

If you're a good DD as anything other than Thf (even Thf loses food), expect to lose your food sooner or later. Leaving Hasso up permanently - that's kinda the flaw in most Drg's plans. They all say how great Seigan is, but because of so many years of being lolDrg (and I know this from experience, Drg was my first job that I loved and played to destruction before the updates), now that they're a higher tier DD in people's opinions, it's like they've a grudge to prove and so don't use it as often or as well as they should.

Vyuru

01-04-2008, 07:50 AM

Homam Gear. Haste and Emnity. Askar - Haste and Emnity. Barone - Emnity. And Barone should be a swap piece, if you're a properly balanced and geared Dragoon.

Not denying the usefullness of those gearsets, however, all of the pieces with substantial +enmity on them can easily be replaced by something else of comparable value.

I will NEVER go and wear either Askar Manopolas or Homam Manopolas as a DD job. +4/3 enmity on hands alone?! Are you insane?!

If I were to mix and match using primarily those gearsets, it'd be Homam feet/legs, Askar body, Askarhelm/Walahra turban, and either AF+1/Pallas bracelets for hands. Now how much +enmity is in that setup I ask you?

No one will go and tell a DD warrior to wear full AF, but they will say you should use the AF boots. It's the same with the above gearsets, you'd be foolish to use the full gearset and not mix and match.

The only time I will wear a full set of armor and damn the +enmity consequences will be if I ever get a full set of Ares armor, and the total +enmity from wearing that is +2enmity.

Instead of DRG/NIN, does it make more sense to DRG/WHM (with sanction auto-refresh) and keep Blink + Stoneskin up, or DRG/RDM and Blink + Stoneskin + Phalanx, or DRG/BLU and Cocoon + Metallic Body, and let the Wyvern do the curing?

Depends on the mob, so long as they aren't AoE spamming like Imps are with Poisonga I'd say Blink alone would be fine most times, subbed Stoneskin will absorb a few hits, but not that many, still decent to use though. However if you have a Blue Mage in the party they can use Diamondshell, which is one really surprisingly strong AoE Stoneskin and can easily cover any AoE damage.

In general though, if I am drg/mage I'll forgo Blink/Stoneskin and just wait for my hp to drop low enough for a healing breath. I save mp for when I really need it, and alot of times if I do have Blink/Stoneskin up Blink gets wiped by AoE before it does anything useful, so I generally prefer Stoneskin.

It's not cut and dry is what I've been saying all along. Sometimes Drg/Nin will be optimal

I'll give you that it's not cut and dry, but I will disagree that there is a situation that Drg/Nin is optimal in, especially in exp parties.

And to Fencingkitty, I don't know what your party was like, but the only times I have ever been harrassed or told I should have come /ninja was because the tank, most often ninja, was not tanking, the war/nins in the party, were not tanking and hate was flying everywhere. The healers were normally lucky if someone provoked the mob off of them. Those kinds of parties are stupid, I damn well expect people to have a better mentality about team work and how a party runs than some Dunes party.

And seriously, how sad is that where an entire area is used in a derogatory manner like the Dunes are now? The people don't even TRY to learn or be better. Sorry for the offtopic but that just struck me while writing.

Drg/nin is really just a bad all around option. Fine, you have an offensive breath, abilitiy to heal your party members would be better, mixed wyverns only heal their dragoon.

Yes drg/nin is situational, but with no form of party healing on your part, but to put it mildly I really do not think it is a good idea on the dragoon's part. Do you have any idea how often I have been the reason my party, exp/mission/other, has survived because I have come drg/rdm? I may not be able to take hits well, but that paladin sure can. Oh look, my healing breaths cure for more than the paladin gets hit for, gee, isn't that nice?

Drg's fave merit mob. /Nin on all melee allows the Rdm or Whm to Dia III/Dia II your merit mobs defense down enough to reduce the attack needed for 2.0 cRatio by as much as 116

I'll eat a DiaII/III for the team thank you very much. I have these options available to me: Either I just leave it on no problem, cast Stonskin to eat up the DoT damage, Super jump to avoid any possible hate problems, or have someone who is /whm cast Erase on me. Any none dragoon has the same options minus Super Jump. Not an issue at all and if your healers are hesitating about casting Dia II/III for that reason I'll have to have a few words with them.

I AM NOT SAYING /NIN IS THE BEST SJ TO USE. I AM JUSTIFYING WHY IT'S A VIABLE SJ CHOICE.

On the one hand, I realise what you are saying and I agree that there may be some situations where /nin might be viable.

On the otherhand, I look at those situations and think if people worked together better they wouldn't BE in that situation, making any arguement for times when /nin is viable void. I can't think of any instance in exp where you couldn't instead come /mage, use Seigan+TE, invite a thief for TA on the tank which so many people seem to refuse to do, failing to invite a thief have someone else come as /thf, or any number of things that would make coming with a /nin sub really poor teamwork on your part.

Spinnthrift

01-04-2008, 08:58 AM

Vyuru

01-04-2008, 01:36 PM

I'm not insane, I just understand the value of haste gear. Since you don't - I've not bothered commenting anything else you've written, as your perspective is totally flawed. Other than Pallas Bracs for Drg... you'd wear gear that has negative stats for your best WS? And rate that over Homam, hahahahaha. Nice going sunshine.

Your arguement that drg/nin has uses is similar to someone argueing that war/mnk has uses, and is getting much the same reaction. Yes, they have uses, but if you're using a two handed weapon then war/sam or war/thf is better. Use one handed weapons and war/nin is better, get my drift?

Heck, war/mnk is a better combo than drg/nin.

Other than Pallas Bracs for Drg... you'd wear gear that has negative stats for your best WS? And rate that over Homam, hahahahaha. Nice going sunshine.

1)

Whoever said that would be WS gear?

2)

Take a look at the Homam pieces I passed over (head, body, hands) Are you SERIOUSLY saying that I should wear something as stupid as Homam Manopolas with enmity +3 to TP in? Furthermore, why would I wear Homam Zucchetto when there is something better like the Askar Zucchetto?

Two pieces of Homam gear that I passed proven to be substantially inferior or foolish to use.

Do you have ANY idea what my plain unadorned accuracy rate is on normal exp mobs? Or how useful Store TP can be? When I am sitting on that much naked accuracy, with gobs of lance merits ahead of me, toss in accessories, perhaps, PERHAPS, you can see why I would consider the Homam Corazza a waste of time, and further to be useless for me? You'd be stupid to be sitting on that much +accuracy overkill. That's also counted before Hasso, assuming I don't have Seigan+TE up 24/7.

The third and last piece of Homam gear that I passed over shown to be foolish to use as well.

Those are fine pieces of gear to use for other jobs, but not for a drg/sam.

Also, I'm not seeing the, Additional effect: nerfs Penta/Skewer/Wheeling Thrust on any of the pieces I have mentioned even if I did want to use them as WS gear. The only piece that would truely be detrimental to my weaponskills would be the Pallas Bracelets due to the -dex on them, because like you know, Penta Thrust has a dex modifier on it.

I've not bothered commenting anything else you've written, as your perspective is totally flawed.

Most likely you aren't commenting on anything else because you cannot make a reasonable arguement against it.
------------------------------------------
Copied and bolded for truth:

Last edited by LilithAngel : Yesterday at 03:50 PM. Reason: Besides, if a hate-shedding job needs to /NIN, then it's not the job, nor the job's player, that's the problem...

Spinnthrift

01-04-2008, 05:44 PM

Your arguement that drg/nin has uses is similar to someone argueing that war/mnk has uses, and is getting much the same reaction. Yes, they have uses, but if you're using a two handed weapon then war/sam or war/thf is better. Use one handed weapons and war/nin is better, get my drift?

I get the point that you're spewing fanboi vitriol. But nice derail, though I will deign to answer you.

1)

Whoever said that would be WS gear?

You'd TP in -acc gear? Congrats. You win a cookie and your first free ride on the short bus.

2)

Take a look at the Homam pieces I passed over (head, body, hands) Are you SERIOUSLY saying that I should wear something as stupid as Homam Manopolas with enmity +3 to TP in? Furthermore, why would I wear Homam Zucchetto when there is something better like the Askar Zucchetto?

Two pieces of Homam gear that I passed proven to be substantially inferior or foolish to use.

Homam hands are the best hand piece a Drg can wear in the game barring one piece of gear. Just one. Do you know what that piece is? Dusk Gloves +1. Homam Head is a bit meh, because of W. Turban, but if you are wearing an Askar Turban, props to you... it's a damned sight harder to get than Homam (note that I'd also suggested wearing Askar.. but you skipped that in your glorious ignorance and pathetic attempt to win the internets).

Do you have ANY idea what my plain unadorned accuracy rate is on normal exp mobs?

Personally - your personal one. No. But - I'm well aware of the evasion caps on merit mobs. I've taken jobs out there, stood naked and swapped gear around till I knew the precise amounts of Acc I needed for 95% accuracy.

Or how useful Store TP can be?

Actually, funny you mention it, but the most you can get from Store TP on Drg is +24 (gear iirc), which equates to +2.4 tp per swing, unless you swap from a Tournament Lance to a different one, then you're at +2. If you're /Sam, then you're at +3.5 tp per hit. Since I'm well aware that haste can easily bring you to swinging *TWICE* as fast with any lance, please show me how you can get to double your store TP, because I'm well aware that even with a Corsair rolling an 11 with a Sam in the party, you can't. Physically impossible. So? Where does that leave me, going.. oh well, Store TP is a relatively redundant stat if I'm trying to be exception. Fun fact: Nice average lance delay is 490, giving a 13.3 tp return, using +3.5 tp per hit, means you get a 100.8 tp return from 6 swings. This means to cut your swings down, you need more than +19 store tp... So, yes - I do know how Store TP works, and I really don't think that highly of it, especially not when I can have haste or bless - triple attack for the lucky epeen of it. Otherwise, anything less than +19 will return a 7 hit build unless you're counting on getting hit on the way up. And no, I really can't be arsed to rework it back counting on full hit Penta's to start with, but be assured, I do know how.

When I am sitting on that much naked accuracy, with gobs of lance merits ahead of me, toss in accessories, perhaps, PERHAPS, you can see why I would consider the Homam Corazza a waste of time, and further to be useless for me?

So, what gear are we giving you.. Love Torque, Snipers +1 (x2), Life Belt, Askar Body, Askar Head, Drachen Hands (I'm being generous because I don't want to query your rank stupidity over saying TP in Pallas'), Amemet +1 or Forager's.. (doesn't matter, no acc there), Ears - hrmm,. Fowling/Brutal, Askar Dirs (that's being nice too), Feet.. Hrm.. Ares Sollerets.. I'd say that's a reasonable set of gear for you to have.

So, let's total all that acc up, including full polearm merits and love torque. So.. 200 + (99*0.9) = 289.1 naked accuracy. Then raw acc from gear: 14 from rings, 3 from ear, 4.3 from hands, 7 from feet, +8 from legs, +10 from belt, 3.75 extra from torque, 3 from head and 0 from body (so a 53.05 total). Let's give you another 50 accuracy from dex (being kind).. so total of 289.1 + 53.1 + 50 = 392.2 (rounding up). You're still shy of a 90% hit rate. Around 87% eyeballing it before doing the calculations on Colibri, let alone Mamool. So if you include your fabled accuracy rates on Drg - you're only just pushing the cap on Colibri by 4 points of accuracy... Sure, the Homam gear is worthless or you're vastly overestimating your own worth (one of these statements is true).

You can tell me you parse 95% accuracy and I'd be very suspicious of someone who'd wear -acc gear to tp in over +acc gear. Somehow, even with Hasso - I doubt you're pushing the barriers except in your own mind.

You'd be stupid to be sitting on that much +accuracy overkill. That's also counted before Hasso, assuming I don't have Seigan+TE up 24/7.

The third and last piece of Homam gear that I passed over shown to be foolish to use as well.

Those are fine pieces of gear to use for other jobs, but not for a drg/sam.

Even with that very nice set of gear I'd listed above, you've got virtually no haste in it, 4% to be precise. Add in your Hasso and that's 14%. Give you haste and double march, and you're at 49% By the way - at capped accuracy, Zanshin is almost pointless, you do know that right? Take a set of Homam, raw.. and I'm at 12% haste (+47 from spells), with +32 accuracy total and two haste slots free, as well as being able to choose to swap out the Homam Head if I wanted to. Meaning by your standards, I only need +21 acc in gear to not only match your accuracy, but exceed your haste also (with Hasso), as I can put in other pieces like hrm, swift belt and lolblitzring, as I'd need less acc to match you. Except I'd be swinging faster. Therefore TP'ing faster, and being more worthwhile to my merit party/etc/etc/etc. Hell, with /Nin - you could put together more haste and still be swinging faster than you.

Also, I'm not seeing the, Additional effect: nerfs Penta/Skewer/Wheeling Thrust on any of the pieces I have mentioned even if I did want to use them as WS gear. The only piece that would truely be detrimental to my weaponskills would be the Pallas Bracelets due to the -dex on them, because like you know, Penta Thrust has a dex modifier on it.

You wear one set of EQ all the time? Oh.. that explains a lot.

---

Fencingkitty - if a pickup asks for /Nin. Please don't be offended, it's one of a few reasons.

1: The leader is unsure of the tanks skill, and would rather you survived, even if you made less potential exp per hour.

2: The leader is unsure of the healers skill, and would rather you survived.

3: The person inviting you, is unsure of you, and wants to go with something neutral that should help overall. In case you have emnity merits, crit merits, polearm merits, etc, etc, etc.

4: The leader is aware you can do a lot of damage, and the tank doesn't have the tools to hold hate off.

5: There's no Thf's seeking... or the ones that are, aren't being invited for good reason. There's a few Thf's I've partied with once, and would *never* party with again. Ever. They thought they were the bomb too.

6: Any of the reasons before I've mentioned, and or others, mostly that Drg was a solid DD (if not top tier) prior to update, they're very very good now, and the tanks haven't been buffed in equilibrium.

7: The party leader has had someone like the above poster who was a liability, and didn't want to inflict more grief on their already annoyed Rdm and Bard/Cor, knowing that it would cause bad rep for themselves.

LilithAngel

01-05-2008, 03:29 PM

Make your own parties? Merit with friends? Set up groups to merit with? I dunno.. I don't tend to worry much about meriting that much, I'm usually busy.

As am I, as is everyone. If I were in the States, or I managed to play during NA times, then this wouldn't be a problem, as I do happen to know plenty of people to put together a double brd pt. Easily.

However, I am not, as is evidenced by the fact my location reads Misawa Air Base, Japan. It's the same problem I've had to deal with on my own as when I was in Spangdahlem Air Base, Germany. I've managed to make it work, however the double brd pt that's so prevelant (apparently) is something I've had to go without. The only approximation that I can achieve with if I catch a Bard-Corsair party, and that's only if I'm the Corsair, since, being an English speaking person that only plays in a predominantly Japanese play time, it's that or I play with the random odd late night NA parties (which, surprise surprise, probably aren't going to be double bard).

As far as being busy is concerned, well, I'm fairly certain I beat out about 90-99% of the entire forum membership here at DiV for having a full plate. An active duty military career (in aircraft maintenance, no less), college, and still finding time to play this game on top of enjoying the sights of Japan pretty much means that only the other military members here are gonna be able to beat that out. I have to go with what I can, but I don't complain, I just make do. I do have to say that for what it's worth, I've done a lot more in less time than prolly just about anyone else in this thread alone.

eticket109

01-05-2008, 06:15 PM

/NIN is useful for one thing and one thing only, shadows. shadows help mitigate damage which is useful in today's burn parties. yes, I agree, with proper tanking that shouldn't be an issue. however, in today's ffxi that's just not the way of things.

I for one have never used it, but I can understand the usefulness.

I'm not even touching the gear convos. lol elitist flame war? {no thanks}

Vyuru

01-06-2008, 09:11 PM

Well I must admit, the flames got me a bit mad and had to wait a bit to respond, however, now that I have had a chance to read your post closer, I am actually quite amused.

Where to begin?

Let's give you another 50 accuracy from dex (being kind)..

My base unaltered dex is 71, 3/4(71) = 53.25 accuracy from dex. If you're being as kind with my accuracy from gear as you are with my gear (BTW, where's my Gugnir with that gearset?) then you are more than a tad bit off there if you think 50 acc from dex is being *kind and generous*

But I could be wrong, perhaps you are using the one handed dex to acc conversion formulas, instead of the two handed dex to acc formula.

Also, you neglected BOTH of Dragoon's +acc traits, that adds up to +20 accuracy BTW.

Seeing as how you missed BOTH of those rather important items, I think we can conclude that you don't have much, if any experience as dragoon if you don't even know what our job traits are. Perhaps you should not be flaming the people quite so hard who DO have extensive experience with this job when we collectively say that ninja offers little to nothing for this job.

As someone else pointed out to me, these are people who don't always see eye to eye and may not be able to agree on the color of an orange who are all agreeing that drg/nin offers little that another sub couldn't do instead, and better.

Actually, funny you mention it, but the most you can get from Store TP on Drg is +24

Since I'm well aware that haste can easily bring you to swinging *TWICE* as fast with any lance, please show me how you can get to double your store TP, because I'm well aware that even with a Corsair rolling an 11 with a Sam in the party, you can't. Physically impossible.

Actually, funny you should mention it.

As you say, average delay on lances dragoons actually USE is approximately and exactly 492, this results in 13.3 TP per hit, which results in 8 hits need to reach 100 TP. Toss in Store TP II from a samurai sub, which is +15% TP/hit, you are now looking at 15.2 TP/hit, which alone results in 7 hits needed to reach 100 TP. I now only need 7 hits instead of 8, that's one hit less, that is, with a standard delay lance, 8.2 fewer seconds needed in order to reach 100%TP.

And you do know that a 6 hit TP setup for dragoons isn't exactly feasible until you get some of the really good gear like a Valkyrie's Fork and some other stuff right?

Already, a little store TP proves to be useful, that's not counting jumps or meditate to fill in the gaps even faster.

Take a set of Homam, raw.. and I'm at 12% haste

Take my earlier suggested gearset and I'm at 10%-11% haste depending on what I use, less accuracy than you true, but you bungled your earlier accuracy estimates so I actually pull even with you in the +acc department. I have more +str/att/dex in my gear, so I will be hitting harder than you, and I haven't even touched the accessories I would use yet. I will also have much less +enmity than you will, therefore pulling hate less often and being less of a mp sponge on the party.

Omgwtfbbqkitten

01-06-2008, 10:16 PM

DRG/NIN is a real head scratcher for me.

First off, you're likely not going to dual wield in this combo, so that's gone to waste. Secondly, you have two enmity-shedding moves open two you on three-minute recastt timers. So if you got hate, you'd probably lose hate. Third, any AOE is going to wipe of get through shadows, so /NIN doesn't really add much protection for the times a DRG could get hit anyway.

Then let's look at all the cool things DRG loses:

Hasso
Seigan
Store TP
Berzerk
Warcry
Double Attack
Sneak Attack
Trick Attack

There's no good reason for DRG to sub /NIN, even at merit level. All it does is negate damage and if DRGs are playing thier jobs right, taking hate and keeping it should be rare.

Ciecle

01-07-2008, 09:25 AM

If you want a /nin Best bet would be /sam cause you get Seigan+third eye you get 3 shadows/eyes plus you get a chance to counter the monster's attack on top of that seigan lasts 3 mins and recast for third eye is 30 seconds.
and /nin gives you multiwyvern...
but like Omg said look at all the cool things you lose if you go /nin (dont care too much about the /thf though xD)

/Rdm and /whm is good if you are soloing not really for partys cause when a party has to resort to a DD for healing then its pointless to be in a party.

Being tarutaru dragoon is kind of intresting(72 as of right now ^.^)
all i need for it is a couple of +acc items Hasso/seigan and all +Str items. right now as drg/sam i have Str61+37 with out hasso and attack is over 389 attack and i do over 700 on Imps useing wheeling thrust and 500 for penta thrust....
But enough about my accompilshments on game :P.

I said my part about the whole /nin thing lol

Vyuru

01-07-2008, 02:07 PM

Best bet would be /sam cause you get Seigan+third eye you get 3 shadows/eyes plus you get a chance to counter the monster's attack

I thought Seigan+Third Eye gave you a random number of shadows?

Yeah, from Wiki:

While Seigan is in effect, the recast time for Third Eye is halved.
Third Eye may anticipate or counter an attack without being consumed.

While it is random I would say the average of hits you evade/counter would be about 3-4.

Plus, with Seigan+Third Eye you don't have to worry about getting hit while trying to recast Utsusemi pre lvl 74.

4 levels sure, but it's still pretty nice. You also have a decent chance of getting Third Eye up if you see the mob readying some TP move against you as well.

And if you *really* want to lower your offensiveness, you could just sub a mage job to lower the amount of damage you deal, giving you access to a healing wyvern which can help cure you, and other party members. Plus that could be usefull coming as drg/rdm for Dispel that I have yet to see be resisted except on summons. Or /whm for ~na spells if it's needed.

Omgwtfbbqkitten and I for sure don't agree on that one :P But I will say if the healing aspect is covered/mostly covered then /whm for ~na spells and the occasional DS+Curaga I/II could be quite beneficial to the party. Especially if this is some ToAU/WoTG camp and you have auto refresh on.

IfritnoItazura

01-07-2008, 03:56 PM

All things considered, I'm less afraid of DRG/NIN in merit parties than people using my merit time as a skill up party.

DRG does enough damage without a support job that I'm not really inclined to worry over /SAM, /NIN, or whatever, especially on Greater Colibri. (Heck, MNK/NIN does just fine without taking advantage of Dual Wield, right?)

Vyuru

01-08-2008, 08:52 AM

All things considered, I'm less afraid of DRG/NIN in merit parties than people using my merit time as a skill up party.

Oh god Sapara of Trials Paladin flashback....
Be afraid... Be very afraid....

DRG does enough damage without a support job that I'm not really inclined to worry over /SAM, /NIN, or whatever, especially on Greater Colibri. (Heck, MNK/NIN does just fine without taking advantage of Dual Wield, right?)

I don't know, this is a really kinda yes and kinda no question to me.

IF H2H were counted as a 2handed weapon, would we be telling all the monks to go as mnk/sam for Seigan/TE and all the other /sam goodies?

You can kick your damage down just as much as /mage and provide a whole host of healing benefits to your party, going /nin really seems a waste to me. Although I will say again that there may be some places or instances where you'd want to do that. I honestly can't think of any but there very well might be.

I agree with you that drg does enough damage without a support job that I wouldn't normally worry about support jobs, but it's more, what utility does the support job bring to dragoon that I question.

In terms of defensiveness I think /sam is either better or roughly equal to /nin. I'd probably go with roughly equal since the duration of Third Eye while under Seigan is a bit random. Plus with Meditate I can open/close SC much more easily and add to my damage that way if I wanted to.

In terms of healing, just about any mage sub is better in my mind due to a higher HB threshold and ability to heal other people.

Spinnthrift

01-08-2008, 02:54 PM

Firstly Vyuru - I did count the second accuracy boost, you just don't know the evasion caps of mobs, although looking back, I was 2 points out with how much boost you get (forget it's +22 not +20).

Secondly - the last 2hander tests I performed (pre 2hander balance redressing), showed that the benefits gained on a 1:1 ratio were only those granted after equipment, and not off your base stats. This may have changed post update, but it appeared to be consistent with the increase I noticed when playing around with Warrior. Base stats *were* (although when my exams are over I'll log in and recheck) on the same 2:1 ratio as 1handers. If that was redressed in the most recent update I'll accede the point with dex, but still even with the set of gear given, you're still only just hitting the caps.

I'm not decrying the use of /Sam ever... I have it levelled.. however - when the best WS's readily available for a well geared Nin will top around 800-900 (averages), and similarly for a Pld, when a Drg or any 2handed DD can put upwards of 1.3k easily if geared well, /Sam and Seigan is not a guaranteed defense. And I can say that from experience. I've seen War/Sam's put out huge Raging Rush's, and go Third Eye, and ignore/counter till the meripo mob is dead. I've also seen the same War/Sam open with a Raging Rush, and lose the Eye with Seigan up on the first hit, which was followed by some WS spammage which left them very sorely hurt (and dead occasionally - which then caused a downtime as we lost chain).

Yes - Drg can High Jump/Super Jump, but those are not always available, especially if you're killing very fast. Even a slow party should be killing one mob a minute, which means you will have at least one mob where you can't avoid hate, more if your party is killing fast, even more if you pull hate early, jump it off, turn it and have to rejump it off because you made a huge WS or any number of reasons when you've had to use your jumps, maybe because you used a high jump to TP up with instead of using it solely for removing hate (a common trait to many a Drg).

The whole benefit of /Nin wasn't a damage boost, but a defense boost, which in a high damage output job (which Drg is, more so on Colibri), allowing for continuous exp chains without draining supports resources. Yes, /Sam does more damage. But sometimes straight damage isn't what's needed. That modicum of equilibrium where the jobs balance, no one person is more a tank than any other - which is the current style of optimum exp gain.

Yup - I love SC'ing. Loved it as a Thf, loved it as a Drg, loved it as a Blm, loved it as a Nin, but - it isn't a consistent damage tool in ToAU. Mobs are *very* resistant to them here. I've recently partied with a Drk and Rng combo (both were thankfully /Nin) while levelling, and while both were regularly breaking 2k combined from WS damage, the SC damage would vary from around 30 to 700. It's not a reliable tool in exp any more from around 52 onwards (when people start hitting ToAU).

Kitten, of late, you've been saying a lot of awry things. The amount of damage a DD can put out compared to a tank is absurd. If a DD has to lower their damage, so that not one person has total hate - then that's what they need to do to be in balance.

If a Drg can put out a 1k+ WS at the start of a fight - will Seigan GUARANTEE thier survival? No. Will Utsusemi do so? Also no, but they have a much *higher* chance of surviving. So a DD can release a WS when they have 100 tp and regain tp. That's why /Nin is about, as a change in trend from the days when WS > WS > SC > MB was the standard. Do I like it this way? My personal feelings are irrelevant. If I have to lower my output to perform in a party, I will. If I have to go backup heal, I will. If I have to wear an attack set of gear and eat sushi because the rest of my party needs minuet x2 to hurt the mobs, guess what - I'll put attack gear on over accuracy because of balance.

Lastly - the number of times I've seen DD's with /Sam refuse to use Seigan because they're doing huge damage etc, etc, means that while I'm thoroughly aware of it's potential, I rarely get to see it used fully, as they leave Hasso on full time. Why? Because of all the stick they got for being Drks and Drgs prior to the update and they need to DD now. Hell, I've seen Samurai not use it till they're one hit from death. It's called in my LS, the Uchi Syndrome (named after a certain person who does just the following). Where a DD is completely and utterly oblivious to anything bar their own damage output (usually at the detriment of the party they're in).

/Sam can be better, but it can also be much much worse. I've seen 2 pecking flurry's back to back avoided, and I've also seen /Sam DD's get torn to shreds because they only anticipated 1 hit with Seigan up, with a whole lot of hate more than they or their party could cope with. /Nin is a guaranteed 3 hits absorbtion, and if you're skilled enough to cast between attacks, 6.

For my last post in this thread... I will say the same damn thing I've said over and over. I'm not saying it's a good or bad sj choice. It's situational to the party. Sometimes it's what is needed, sometimes it's not. Simple as that. If you're an Uchi, then it's probably needed. If you're well geared and the rest aren't - it's probably needed. If you're with a shady tank (which I've seen many of you complain about) - it's probably needed. If you're with a great tank, who can match you pound for pound, Drg/war or /Sam is better. If you're poorly geared and your party is well geared, you'll want to be /War or /Sam for the power up. If you're in a traditional party that uses SC's and stuff - /War (and possibly /Sam) is better. If you're on a NM fight that you need to make sure you have a WS ready at a specific time, /Sam is probably better (or /War if you need to adjust for cRatio), or /Thf if it doesn 'Frail' if you need to make sure you land it. If you're meleeing on Brig Blade in Sky, /Nin is definately better (I say this as it was a recent kill - trying to help me HQ a knife). I can keep picking places where one role is better than others and worse than others in different roles. I might not have done it all in that one weekend when Lilith had shore leave, but I've been there over the years.

No SJ is the be all and end all for Drg. Simple as. There are times when /Nin is best and times when it's not. There are times when /Sam is the best and times when it's not. Just remember - if someone says: "Hey, can you go /Nin?" They're probably doing it for a good reason, and not just to damage your ego.

Am I sitting on the fence? Damn straight - because I'm versatile, I appreciate both sides of the story. And I'm as right in saying - /Nin's not crap, as right as you all are for saying /Sam is great. It's like my using Rdm/Drg in campaign because I get to be a WS whore with it and not care about being in a party. Serves it's purpose to the needs which I want met. Would I say it's viable in a standard meripo? No. Would I try and solo the Archlord fight with it if I ever change nations.. YES!

~signing out.. I need sleep and I've exams coming up.

Omgwtfbbqkitten

01-10-2008, 03:13 AM

Omgwtfbbqkitten and I for sure don't agree on that one.

Not only is /WHM more beneficial to a EXP PT (if its even neccessary to sub /mage), there are now two other mage subs out there for DRG that aren't /WHM and are better than /RDM - BLU and SCH.

Most /mage subs would favor a quick-casting spell anyway for HB trigger, Fast Cast from /RDM doesn't offer much of an advantage. Enspells are largely a joke on RDM main, even worse under sub. RDM just doesn't offer as much to DRG as other mage subs do. RDM and BLM just aren't as good as DRGs other mage sub options.

Before we even debate /SCH, all I have to say is subbable B skill Aspir.

/Nin's not crap, as right as you all are for saying /Sam is great.

Rubbish.

/NIN offers no increased DD potential to DRG, a job that is a damage-dealer. That should be the first thing we consider in a PT role for DRG, not avoiding damage. /NIN works for WAR and other jobs that can dual-wield with real benefits, but DRG specializes in lance.

/SAM offers +15% haste +5 STR from Hasso, then offers benefits to Third Eye via Seigan at 70+. I'd say Seigan's placement was rather intentional. Also, AGI gear I believe helps Third Eye quite a bit under Seigan. I'm speaking as a RNG here, i've see it Third Eye drop after a couple swipes, but I've also seen it last for 6 or 7 under Seigan(having Seiryu's Kote probably doesn't hurt here).

/SAMs a better package - increased DoT and evasion options, /NIN just gives you that latter.

Kafeen

01-10-2008, 06:31 AM

Homam hands are the best hand piece a Drg can wear in the game barring one piece of gear. Just one. Do you know what that piece is? Dusk Gloves +1. Homam Head is a bit meh, because of W. Turban, but if you are wearing an Askar Turban, props to you... it's a damned sight harder to get than Homam (note that I'd also suggested wearing Askar.. but you skipped that in your glorious ignorance and pathetic attempt to win the internets).

DRGs usually get quite shafted on gear compaired to some jobs, this has improved alot recently and there are quite a few viable options for hand equipment.

For example, the Pallas Bracelets you so easilyl shoot down give a give a nice +9 STR boost at the sacrifice of 5 AGI and 5 DEX. 9 STR is nice where ever its coming from, especially if you're a Mithra like Vyuru who will naturally have a much higher DEX than STR from racial traits. Would you think it was odd a Galka PLD to wear HP>MP conversion gear? Even though HP is good for a PLD Galkas have it to spare but do benefit from an MP boost, the same can be said for Mithra sacrificing DEX for STR. Other races can get away with it too if they have accuracy boosts from other sources. If you're hitting 90+% of the time anyway gaining DEX probably isn't going to have much effect, hitting harder on the other hand might.

Drachen +1 are also a nice piece, offering +5 STR and DEX.

As are Wyrm (+1) offering +5 (+7) Accuracy.

They're just the ones I know off the top of my head, you certainly aren't just limited to Dusk or Homam, just because they have a haste boost.

Magoo

01-10-2008, 06:44 AM

Fencingkitty, it really comes down to how much damage you can do without becoming a MP sponge for the healers. If you can keep hate off yourself by just using jumps while subbing WAR then I'd remind parties that you can shed hate when necessary and stick with it until 70 at least.

Assuming you're still under 70 and/or you still don't have your SAM up to par - if you can't keep hate off yourself with WAR sub then I'd try mage subs that might add some more utility to the party than subbing NIN while causing you to get less hate.

If you're STILL pulling hate more often than you can shed it, NIN is the best sub option for your party until you have seigan available. It's better to do a little less damage than soak up the healer's MP/get the healer killed due to excessive healing.

I know you're past this level by now but a good example would be fighting Lesser Colibri in the mid 50s with a ninja 'tank' and no thf. I would say a ninja sub would be optimal in that situation. Chances are very good that the DDs will spend as much or more time tanking than the ninja in that situation. Heck, a lot of parties level on them without a ninja or paladin in the first place.
------------------------------------------
DRGs usually get quite shafted on gear compaired to some jobs, this has improved alot recently and there are quite a few viable options for hand equipment.

For example, the Pallas Bracelets you so easilyl shoot down give a give a nice +9 STR boost at the sacrifice of 5 AGI and 5 DEX. 9 STR is nice where ever its coming from, especially if you're a Mithra like Vyuru who will naturally have a much higher DEX than STR from racial traits. Would you think it was odd a Galka PLD to wear HP>MP conversion gear? Even though HP is good for a PLD Galkas have it to spare but do benefit from an MP boost, the same can be said for Mithra sacrificing DEX for STR. Other races can get away with it too if they have accuracy boosts from other sources. If you're hitting 90+% of the time anyway gaining DEX probably isn't going to have much effect, hitting harder on the other hand might.

Drachen +1 are also a nice piece, offering +5 STR and DEX.

As are Wyrm (+1) offering +5 (+7) Accuracy.

They're just the ones I know off the top of my head, you certainly aren't just limited to Dusk or Homam, just because they have a haste boost.

Pallas are great for the actual weaponskills but don't really do much for you in between (they drop a dragoon's accuracy by 5, so will actually slow down TP gain unless your accuracy is capped even with the penalty).

Homam/Dusk+1 are the best (for TP gain) because the haste gets you to 100TP faster than anything else assuming you are at or near the accuracy cap - once you hit 100 TP you would swap in something like pallas or heca gloves for the weaponskill itself.

Evion

01-10-2008, 07:08 AM

Is this thread STILL goin?! WTF?! Has this topic been trounced or what? I didn't know much about DRG or NIN before, but after reading through this... Damn!

eticket109

01-10-2008, 07:21 AM

Is this thread STILL goin?! WTF?! Has this topic been trounced or what? I didn't know much about DRG or NIN before, but after reading through this... Damn!

lol it turned into the same old subjob and gear thread. I stopped paying attention a while ago.

LilithAngel

01-10-2008, 07:45 AM

lol it turned into the same old subjob and gear thread.

lol What do you mean it turned into a SJ thread? It was a SJ thread the instant it was created. You expected something else when the OP asked about the potential of a SJ for Dragoon?

Gear always naturally comes up because it can be a major part of the concept behind certain job/SJ combos. Skill will always trump, of course, but after that, comes gear. Gear will always be a part of the equasion, so I wonder what else you were expecting to crop up?

Kafeen

01-10-2008, 07:48 AM

Pallas are great for the actual weaponskills but don't really do much for you in between (they drop a dragoon's accuracy by 5, so will actually slow down TP gain unless your accuracy is capped even with the penalty).

Homam/Dusk+1 are the best (for TP gain) because the haste gets you to 100TP faster than anything else assuming you are at or near the accuracy cap - once you hit 100 TP you would swap in something like pallas or heca gloves for the weaponskill itself.
Damage doesn't only come from Weapon Skills though. If loosing the DEX or haste is going to have a large effect then I'd agree you should keep it, but lets take Dusk +1 for example. That's 4% haste, that's 1 extra attack for every 25 that you'd do without them, right? (If not feel free to correct me). Depending on your current damage, its quite likely that gaining the +9 STR for those 25 attacks will do more damage than getting in 1 extra attack that often. As far as getting TP for a weapon skill, Polearms are 12 TP per hit (I think), that's 9 hits to get over 100% TP. For that haste to give you enough TP for an extra weapon weapon skill over someone without it that's 225 attacks. Is the extra damage from that 1 weapon going to be greater than the extra damage you could have dealt with those 225 attacks? Probably not. Obviously there's still the slight loss of accuracy to take into account too but its alot easier to make up 5 DEX from other equipment such as rings than it is to make up 9 STR.

Mhurron

01-10-2008, 07:53 AM

Well, this is a sign of party that does not give a damn about party dynamics: No proper hate controls, no proper back-line support/curing, etc.
I thought these were all bullet point features of ToAU.

Need I say anymore?
Think back to what was a good party before ToAU.

eticket109

01-10-2008, 07:56 AM

the same old petty arguments that pop up in all job forums. that's what I expected and that's what I got.

the op asked a simple question. is /nin viable? they got a few answers specifically pointed to that question. ie: yes it is for defense etc. the rest of the thread is people flaming each other over their gear choices and how they play. it's the same old cookie cutter pattern that fills up BG and KI. if you aren't wearing gear A and subbing job B then you suck. I'm right and you're wrong.

the beauty of this job is that it's one of the most versatile out there. there is no 100% right way to do it.

LilithAngel

01-10-2008, 08:15 AM

the rest of the thread is people flaming each other over their gear choices and how they play. it's the same old cookie cutter pattern that fills up BG and KI. if you aren't wearing gear A and subbing job B then you suck. I'm right and you're wrong.

Then feel free to enlighten everyone on a better way to discuss differences of opinion where people don't feel that their way is being threatened, or that ego and attitude aren't shown through the style of writing someone chooses. I'm sure a good number of people would like to see the path to the Golden Way of Foruming instead of yet another post in the vein of "oh bother, yet another thread gone to pot as I expected it to because the heathens cannot fathom what I do as I sit here on my golden horse." :rolleyes:

However, I will agree on this: Dragoon, much like Blue Mage and a select few other jobs, does indeed enjoy an unparalleled degree of freedom in how it can choose to play. That's something not a whole lot of jobs can get away with these days.

eticket109

01-10-2008, 08:36 AM

Then feel free to enlighten everyone on a better way to discuss differences of opinion where people don't feel that their way is being threatened, or that ego and attitude aren't shown through the style of writing someone chooses. I'm sure a good number of people would like to see the path to the Golden Way of Foruming instead of yet another post in the vein of "oh bother, yet another thread gone to pot as I expected it to because the heathens cannot fathom what I do as I sit here on my golden horse.".

I've stated my piece on it. I'll 'show people the way' by not lowering myself to personal attacks and flaming. There is useful information in here but it's clouded by the auxiliary barbs people toss in the posts alongside the info. Your posts are only furthering my point. Regardless, the BG and KI comment earlier was a bit out of focus, there is a lot more useful information overall in here than in most of their threads. lol

Magoo

01-10-2008, 08:58 AM

Damage doesn't only come from Weapon Skills though. If loosing the DEX or haste is going to have a large effect then I'd agree you should keep it, but lets take Dusk +1 for example. That's 4% haste, that's 1 extra attack for every 25 that you'd do without them, right? (If not feel free to correct me). Depending on your current damage, its quite likely that gaining the +9 STR for those 25 attacks will do more damage than getting in 1 extra attack that often. As far as getting TP for a weapon skill, Polearms are 12 TP per hit (I think), that's 9 hits to get over 100% TP. For that haste to give you enough TP for an extra weapon weapon skill over someone without it that's 225 attacks.

You're looking at just one item that would generally be part of a haste build though. With a good, complete haste build (which dusk+1 or homam hands will be a part of), that 225 number will be much smaller even if you aren't taking into account the additonal double attacks over time that will result. There aren't replacments for the haste gear of a good build in most slots that are as good as the +9 str of pallas bracelets for hands.

I think the optimal build for damage over time would include homam or dusk+1 gloves, although if you don't have haste gear in many other slots then they may not be worth using over pallas. One extra miss from the -5 accuracy negates a whole lot of the +9 str regular melee damage though.

Also, you probably would have had dex or accuracy rings anyway, so you aren't really 'making up' for the 5 dex that is lost anywhere. Either that, or you're sacrificing strength or +attack somewhere else which defeats the purpose of using the pallas bracelets in the first place.

Anyway, our personal gear preferences are unrelated to whether a ninja is sometimes a viable dragoon subjob so that's the last I have to say on the subject in this thread =P