Pre-50 RDM Gear-Swapping Poll

[Evion]

Well, as it has come up as such a touchy subject, I thought I'd drop a poll and use the results as advice for future RDMS and myself.

Does a RDM pre-50 NEED to have gear-swapping macros or is this a bit elitist?

Thanks for your posts,

Evion

[IfritnoItazura]

As I said in the other thread, macros are good for:

- Convert (Lv.40): MP gear
- Resting: hMP gear/food, like Pilgrim's Wand (Lv.10), Mohbwa Sash (Lv.20), Ginger Cookies.
- Spells: INT/MND; such as wands (to switch out Pilgrim's), rings, neck, etc.

Macros become really useful Lv.10+, and I recommend any RDM beginner who is not used to macros to have a look at my Red Mage Macro Tutorial (http://www.ffxionline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=63727).

[Taskmage]

Don't forget Devotee's Mitts and melee gear if you're the type to melee. It's possible to do your job adequately without them, but to excel yes, they're necessary.

[TheGrandMom]

If you can afford the extra gear then by all means DO IT! My husband played for quite some time without any swapping macros and did his job very well.

[Sabaron]

As far as I remember there's really not much to swap at lower level. Having both MND and INT rings and a nice set of Convert Gear is good. Solo gear is optional. Wand swaps (Pilgrim's/Stat) pre-51 for resting/casting. Once you hit the 70's though, the amount of gear you'll want to swap will balloon immensely.

As far as it being "elitist" to require it, I'm not really a fan of people who call "elitist" on anyone who expects their compatriots to be prepared. I don't consider it required by any means, but it makes you better than the next guy. If that's elitist then so am I.

[Aksannyi]

I personally didn't start swapping gear until 51, but that was because I didn't know how effective it actually was. You should swap gear as early as different gear sets make different spells more effective.

[IfritnoItazura]

I still don't get why anyone would think "Buy bunch of (mostly) moderately priced gear and make effective use out of them in party" is somehow elitism at work. >_>

Red Mages should be using Macros by Lv.10, because that's when we get Pilgrim's Wand and INT/MND rings.

[Ellipses]

There are like two thousand miles of gray area between "needed" and "elitist."

[Raydeus]

Yes, specially in the 40-50 part of your RDM career when mobs start resisting your enfs (until you get staves to help you out).

But it all depends on how much space you have, gear swapping takes a lot of room and new RDMs (without full gobbie bags) will have to choose what they are bringing very carefully.

But if it's a player leveling their 2nd+ job to 75 there's no reason to skip gear swaping, for at least rings, neck, back and earrings depending on the spell, that's kinda the minimum requirement. :P

[ioshua]

The purpose of this thread, according to the OP, is to give advice to RDM. It's likely that anyone on their 2nd+ job to 75 doesn't need the advice. It'd be for people on their first trip to the top. People who may not have enough bag space to accommodate a metric ton of swap gear and foods.

I voted No. It isn't "needed" to be "effective" pre-50. It's good but you can easily get by without it. As the game progresses fights get more demanding, players get more critical and gobbie bags get bigger. Then it matters more but when you're fighting an economy of space you have to make cuts where you can.

[IfritnoItazura]

It'd be for people on their first trip to the top. People who may not have enough bag space to accommodate a metric ton of swap gear and foods.
This is often used as an excuse, but it just doesn't fly.

Players start off with 30 inventory. At 16 equipment slots, assuming both a grip and Morion Tathlum, that means 15/16 slots filled. (No ranged weapon can be equipped in slot if a tathlum is in Ammo.) Inventory count starts at 15.

Assuming 4 spell casting rings total (MND x2, INT x2), that means at any point there are 2 other rings. Toss in an Empress Band, that's three unequipped rings. So far, 18 items in inventory.

Before staves, a Red Mage needs just two "weapons": an INT/MND wand, and Pilgrim's Wand. That's one unequipped at all times, so 19 items total at this point.

I mentioned neck piece in the other thread; just INT and MND, really, before torques. So, one must be unequipped at all times, and that makes 20.

Then 2 more inventory used for Ginger Cookies and Mohbwa Sash for additional hMP. Another for Instant Warp scroll. Maybe one more for Instant Reraise scroll. Four more, so 24 total.

That's sufficient for pre-Convert, and a player with NO GOBBIE BAG quest done still has 6 slots open for drops, and likely better set up than 75% of RDMs I saw in the lower levels.

Inventory space is not an issue for macro gears at lower levels, if a player doesn't keep junk in his/her inventory. Before Lv.40, you really can have macro gear and live within 30 spaces.

* * *

Before anyone start complaining about no room for shield, sword, and melee gear, let me say that RDM should mind mage duty first--spell casting, spell accuracy/potency, and having enough MP for spell casting--so those extra equipment can wait in the mog house and come out for solo occasions only, until one has done a Gobbie Bag quest or two.

[hongman]

There are like two thousand miles of gray area between "needed" and "elitist."

QFT

We can all just "get by" - that called being gimp. Gimp's just "get by".

If you have any pride and take enjoyment of doing your job to be best/fullest, you should be swapping out gear as early as you can for max effectiveness, even if it just 1 gear swap for hMP.

At 40-50 I would EXPECT at least INT/MND rings to be swapped and hMP.

[Karinya]

I voted no, but forgot about hMP gear (because there wasn't any worth mentioning when I was a low level RDM). That's worth getting and swapping; otherwise, I have no problem with someone who wears a balanced int/mnd setup all the time. The amount of int and mnd you can swap for at low levels is pretty small, and the effect on your spells unnoticeable; and you basically can't get any of the *really* valuable stats (skill, m.acc, MAB) until af levels and beyond.

Staves and torques really matter to your performance; rings don't matter that much, not really even Tamas (which you would never swap out anyway).

[nanatsu]

It's kinda silly. A person can take pride in being RDM while enjoying the fact that they've put some work into creating a balanced INT/MND setup at lower levels. I'll admit that some things are not good to do without. hMP gear and Elemental Staves come to mind, but to lump anyone who doesn't gear swap at lvl 10 into someone who doesn't take pride in their job is pushing it. This is coming from someone who did gear swap that early.

To be honest, my opinion is that the difference between having MND+4 and INT+2 /MND+2 in your ring slots isn't enough to spaz out over. I definitely don't see any problem with a balanced setup. But another person's opinion may be that micromanaging every single slot at all times is what makes them better. That's fine. Two different playstyles.

Myself? When I ran through RDM a second time on another character, I stopped gear swapping by 30, not noticing any real difference in my performance. By the time I got to level 41, I was pouring on every single bit of MND I could get my hands on and only used INT in spots where I couldn't put MND. The only gear swap I had was an hMP gear swap for resting. I was heavily MND skewed and I thought it was great. And you know what? I still did my job better than a lot of RDMs I came across.

To me taking pride in your job is knowing how and when to enfeeble, knowing how to backup cure, and knowing how to assist with nuke damage to help end fights. All while conserving your mp and keeping the party moving without downtime. I'm not saying gear swapping at low levels is elitist. But by that same token it doesn't make sense to say that not gear swapping means something is wrong with the way you play.

I've seen quite a few RDMs these days who are SLOW when it comes to casting things and they wonder why they can't keep up. Aren't RDMs supposed to have Fast Cast? I'd rather have them focus on casting than gear swapping, and I'd rather have them focus on learning those casting skills at a lower level. And worry about gear swapping when it actually matters. After lvl 50.

[WishMaster3K]

Grendal told us that we should. That's reason enough.

[Icemage]

Gear-swapping is always better than not gear-swapping. How much better is always a question, and at pre-51 levels, it's not such an issue because you don't generally have spell-specific swaps.

I'd say Tarutaru RDMs can pretty much get by without gear-swaps and be fine even for Convert purposes. If you're really fast at manually swapping gears, you can do the Convert thing without a macro too (but I seriously don't recommend it, as having the macro is much, much safer).


Icemage

[Coinspinner]

Even at low level, there's a lot of easy to get gear that makes gear-swapping macros worthwhile. RDM was my first job, way back in 2003, and I was already swapping at level 16 and seeing great results.

[Hyrist]

Need gear swapping pre-50, not really.

A back line RDM can deal without equipment swaps up untill that level without difficulty.

However if a RDM is front lining then I'd be more insistent on them using swaps to suit their hybrid needs better.

The earlier on you learn how to swap, the better your overall performance will be later on as the the swapping system becomes more complex. So while it's not a necessity, it is a heavily recommended practice to get into, be you front or back line.

[Mhurron]

Need gear swapping pre-50, not really.
The reason level 50 is given is because of the elemental staves. Now the staves are targeted as where you should start because you use the staves primarily to offset the increasing amount of resists. The resists happen because at level 51 the stat growth increases.

But you've probably been fighting level 51 mobs since you were 42~44. Meaning you've had increasing resists since that time. So you should have started gear swapping around 40~43 if you want to specify a minimum.

[Esoa]

Obviously it's good if you gear-swap but needed? Hardly. Plus gear-swapping is highly over-rated. I think I started doing it when I got elemental staves at 51 but even with those I didn't notice a huge difference. Perhaps someone could link to somewhere that shows the exact change in effectiveness that, for example, +2 mnd gives. If we're talking about 5% or less then honestly who cares.

Ok here's the Slow I formula:
Slow I Effect = (100 + 0.2 * fMND + 13.68) / 100
fMND = Caster's MND - Target's MND (cap = 75)

So if we assume fMND starts at 10, then +2 mnd would change slow from 15.68% slow to 16.08% slow. That's pretty negligible. To put that amount in perspective it would take the mob 289 attacks with the weaker slow before it would attack one more time than with the stronger slow.

[Malacite]

If you can do it, sure, but I'm not holding it against anyone at the lower levels.

The only gear swaps I do @ low levels is for hhp or hmp (I am atm carrying both MND and INT rings though)

I tend to just play to my strengths. Since I'm an elvaan, I absolutely whore the +MND. MND gear + Goblin Mush Pot + Elvaan MND = some sick paralyzes and slows.

Doing 40+ dmg Banishes on my lv 10 SCH was fun too (turned quite a few heads lmao)

[Hyrist]

Now the staves are targeted as where you should start because you use the staves primarily to offset the increasing amount of resists. The resists happen because at level 51 the stat growth increases.

But you've probably been fighting level 51 mobs since you were 42~44. Meaning you've had increasing resists since that time. So you should have started gear swapping around 40~43 if you want to specify a minimum.

To counter your argument:

I took that into accounut when making my baseline statment on it.

Truth be told, monsters that are 'at' levels 51 are not that difficult to debuff. It is when the monsters themselves reach the level 60 range is when the resistance levels begin to spike greatly, which factors right about after elemental staffs become available, and only then when your are reliably combating IT mobs.

Debuffs got a helluva lot easier to land in to ToAU zones when everyone started to take down VT in quick succession. I switched my primary enfeebles back to wand because of it.

Swapping as soon as 15 is a good practice, at 30 you should be refining your technique, at 51 you gotta have it down.

[WishMaster3K]

Gear swapping is essential. Assuming that you don't need to, at any given point, is ridiculous. Take a look at this post (http://www.ffxionline.com/forums/red-mage/46231-skill-vs-gear-irony.html) I made at least 100 weeks ago.

Back then, and even now, I loved switching gear. And yet, there were some instances where it just wasn't good enough. Now imagine a RDM that DOESN'T switch gear on spells in comparison to me.

Some RDMs might not care about their enfeebles, but I do. Anything that'll make my enfeebles better... ANYTHING, is worth doing. Even if it is a marginal increase, if it is within my means, I'll explore its feasibility.

But that's just me. But I take my job seriously.

[Lucky and Elizabeth]

I voted yes.

But I honestly have no idea what a gear swaping macro does.

[TheGrandMom]

Your BLM must be a lower level if you don't know what gear swapping is yet. Don't worry, you'll find out soon enough sorry to say. LOL Basically it is a macro that you use to put on different gear that might help boost a spell or gear that helps you get more MP a tick while healing.

/heal on
/equip R.ear "Antivenom Earring"
/equip Legs "Baron Slops"
/equip L.ear "Borroka Earring"
/equip Main "Pluto's Staff"

(Just a for instance what a healing macro with gear swapping might look like.)

[Chveya]

Personally, I started using gear swaps on my RDM at lvl 10 with Saintly and Eremite's Rings (and Pilgrim's Wand, of course). I'm an admitted gear/stat whore, and if I can get my hands on something that will potentially increase my effectiveness, then I'm going to use it.

That said, I wouldn't tell other players that gear swaps are needed. Just like food isn't needed, hMP gear isn't needed, BRD songs aren't needed, etc etc. Obviously, these things can significantly increase party effectiveness, and equip swaps can too.

I don't deny that if I was partying with a RDM in the pre-staves levels that did not use any swaps, I'd assume that 1) they are nub and don't know about equip macros, or 2) they don't really care about their job or their performance. Fine. I'll remember that next time I see their name on the lfp list.

[Esoa]

Gear swapping is essential. Assuming that you don't need to, at any given point, is ridiculous. Take a look at this post (http://www.ffxionline.com/forums/red-mage/46231-skill-vs-gear-irony.html) I made at least 100 weeks ago.

Back then, and even now, I loved switching gear. And yet, there were some instances where it just wasn't good enough. Now imagine a RDM that DOESN'T switch gear on spells in comparison to me.

Some RDMs might not care about their enfeebles, but I do. Anything that'll make my enfeebles better... ANYTHING, is worth doing. Even if it is a marginal increase, if it is within my means, I'll explore its feasibility.

But that's just me. But I take my job seriously.

Good for you but that doesn't mean it's essential. The effectiveness of 5-6 extra mnd/int over a balanced set is pretty small.
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I don't deny that if I was partying with a RDM in the pre-staves levels that did not use any swaps, I'd assume that 1) they are nub and don't know about equip macros, or 2) they don't really care about their job or their performance. Fine. I'll remember that next time I see their name on the lfp list.

Or maybe it doesn't matter much. RDM have many roles in a PT and debuffing is only one of them. A minor reduction in effectiveness to something that is only a minor part of their job is not a big deal. RDM don't get PT invites for the debuffs, I can tell you that much.

[TheGrandMom]

Good for you but that doesn't mean it's essential. The effectiveness of 5-6 extra mnd/int over a balanced set is pretty small.


While I can agree that pre 50 it just isn't as important as some people seem to think, I will say that post 50 you better start to learn to do it because it does become important and make you a better player. In a good end game ls, swapping benefits the event that you are attending and makes you a more efficient, better player. Thats not elitest, thats just fact.

[Murphie]

Actually, I'd say at lower levels that the effectiveness of 5-6 extra MND/INT is a pretty big deal.

[Icemage]

Actually, I'd say at lower levels that the effectiveness of 5-6 extra MND/INT is a pretty big deal.
This is true. Not in terms of the potency of spell effects like Paralyze/Slow/nukes, but rather on resist rates. While there's a point of diminishing returns above which you aren't getting much bang for your buck, it's very, very, very hard to get to that point of diminishing returns without regular gear swaps in the early levels (elemental staves at 51 are really the first time when you can breathe a bit and back off of trying to hit the resistance soft cap).


Icemage

[Chveya]

Or maybe it doesn't matter much. RDM have many roles in a PT and debuffing is only one of them. A minor reduction in effectiveness to something that is only a minor part of their job is not a big deal. RDM don't get PT invites for the debuffs, I can tell you that much.

We are talking pre-staves, here. What do RDMs get invites for, then? If you are referring to RDM being invited for Refresh and/or Haste...there are 31 partying levels before Refresh and 38 before Haste. That is a significant amount of time where debuffing is a major part of a RDM's responsibility. The only other responsibility that could potentially edge out debuffing would be main healing. And any good RDM should be able to debuff and main heal without major problems. I'm sorry, but if a RDM in my exp party (even post-staves) told me that debuffing was only a minor part of their job, I'd wonder what they were smoking. The job has an A+ Enfeebling Magic rating for some reason, I'd hope.

The playerbase at large might want to marginalize RDMs into being solely Refresh and Haste monkeys, but that doesn't mean that's a realistic take on the job at all levels. And that doesn't mean I have to go along with it, either.

[IfritnoItazura]

Elitist: "Get the best gears and macro everything or GTFO!"
Reasonable: "Make the best use out of cheap and easy to obtain gears by macro'ing INT/MND/hMP as needed."
Lazy: "Meh. I can't be bothered."

Some people are mistakingly lumping Reasonable with Elistist. 30 slots are enough for macro swapping a few choice slots, and it's actually quite fun trying to figure out how make one's Red Mage the best it can be in a given budget and macro space.

The game is more fun for everyone when we are not (inadvertently) promoting the Lazy, IMO.

[Esoa]

We are talking pre-staves, here. What do RDMs get invites for, then? If you are referring to RDM being invited for Refresh and/or Haste...there are 31 partying levels before Refresh and 38 before Haste. That is a significant amount of time where debuffing is a major part of a RDM's responsibility. The only other responsibility that could potentially edge out debuffing would be main healing. And any good RDM should be able to debuff and main heal without major problems. I'm sorry, but if a RDM in my exp party (even post-staves) told me that debuffing was only a minor part of their job, I'd wonder what they were smoking. The job has an A+ Enfeebling Magic rating for some reason, I'd hope.

The playerbase at large might want to marginalize RDMs into being solely Refresh and Haste monkeys, but that doesn't mean that's a realistic take on the job at all levels. And that doesn't mean I have to go along with it, either.

They get invited to heal.

Lets be honest here. Paralyze and slow are pointless if you're doing just fine healing the incoming damage in a PT anyway, because all they do is reduce incoming damage. So the only debuff that matters in a lot (or perhaps most) PT's is dia and later on gravity, which are pretty minimal regardless of what stats you're carrying around.

Our debuffs really aren't worth much unless you are in a HNM LS or something of that nature. The reason most people marginalize us to haste/refresh/healing roles is because those are the things that make a difference. Debuffing doesn't.

That's my opinion from my 75 lvls of RDM xp PTing. I gear swapped at least from 51+ maybe sooner and I honestly don't feel that gear swapping makes much difference to debuffs and even when it does, debuffs aren't that important anyway. I main healed pretty much every PT I was in and I honestly couldn't tell much difference in killing speed or incoming damage those few times I didn't land debuffs.

Gear swapping does make a difference. It just makes a small difference to our least important role while xping. Since this is a thread about pre-50 PTing it's safe to assume 99% of those are xp PT's.
------------------------------------------
Elitist: "Get the best gears and macro everything or GTFO!"
Reasonable: "Make the best use out of cheap and easy to obtain gears by macro'ing INT/MND/hMP as needed."
Lazy: "Meh. I can't be bothered."

Some people are mistakingly lumping Reasonable with Elistist. 30 slots are enough for macro swapping a few choice slots, and it's actually quite fun trying to figure out how make one's Red Mage the best it can be in a given budget and macro space.

The game is more fun for everyone when we are not (inadvertently) promoting the Lazy, IMO.

30 slots is pretty limited because you have to take into account you're probably carrying gear for when you hit the next level or two, plus soloing gear, etc. With traveling in this game such a pain in the butt it pays to be prepared. I'd gladly sacrifice some marginal gear swapping at lvl 20 in order to not have to run back to town every time I got a PT.

[IfritnoItazura]

They get invited to heal.

Lets be honest here. Paralyze and slow are pointless if you're doing just fine healing the incoming damage in a PT anyway, because all they do is reduce incoming damage. So the only debuff that matters in a lot (or perhaps most) PT's is dia and later on gravity, which are pretty minimal regardless of what stats you're carrying around.

As RDM75, PLD70, and NIN41, I'd call that BS. One proc of Paralyze can save anywhere between 30 to 150+ damage to my PLD70; you'd easily make up for the MP and time cost if it just proc once or twice per battle. (Not to mention possibly stopping a -ga spell on those difficult to silence Imps.) And, Slow on the monsters makes them a lot easier to tank on both NIN and PLD.

When it get to merit level and everything dies under 40 seconds, the value of Slow and Paralyze is drastically reduced (especially on Elegy pulls). Until fights become that short, however, they are well worth the MP and time to cast.

Oh, as for "invited to heal" only? Let's not forget Silence; turns a pain-in-the-neck-ga-spamming BLM type monster into a total weakling. Honestly, what's up with people who think RDMs for curing only and people who think RDMs shouldn't main heal at all? We can main cure, enfeeb, refresh, haste--or do it all. Versatility is the RDM's defining trait.

Our debuffs really aren't worth much
You are a disgrace to the Red Mage community. -_-#

[Esoa]

As RDM75, PLD70, and NIN41, I'd call that BS. One proc of Paralyze can save anywhere between 30 to 150+ damage to my PLD70; you'd easily make up for the MP and time cost if it just proc once or twice per battle. (Not to mention possibly stopping a -ga spell on those difficult to silence Imps.) And, Slow on the monsters makes them a lot easier to tank on both NIN and PLD.

When it get to merit level and everything dies under 40 seconds, the value of Slow and Paralyze is drastically reduced (especially on Elegy pulls). Until fights become that short, however, they are well worth the MP and time to cast.

Oh, as for "invited to heal" only? Let's not forget Silence; turns a pain-in-the-neck-ga-spamming BLM type monster into a total weakling. Honestly, what's up with people who think RDMs for curing only and people who think RDMs shouldn't main heal at all? We can main cure, enfeeb, refresh, haste--or do it all. Versatility is the RDM's defining trait.

Yes Paralyze and Slow will save the healer MP, but if the healer doesn't need the MP savings then they are wasted. That was my point.

There aren't many BLM mobs. Silence is great when you fight them but they are by far the exception rather than the rule.


You are a disgrace to the Red Mage community. -_-#

Keep deluding yourself, if that makes you feel more useful. Without refresh and haste and dispel we're unwanted for XP pt's except as a poor-man's WHM. In fact, before we get those spells that's exactly what we are...that should show you how unimportant those buffs really are, let alone gear swapping for them.

[IfritnoItazura]

Yes Paralyze and Slow will save the healer MP, but if the healer doesn't need the MP savings then they are wasted.
Saving MP is a waste? I don't even know how to respond to that. Are you a Tarutaru with full MP and Convert merit or something?

There aren't many BLM mobs. Silence is great when you fight them but they are by far the exception rather than the rule.
Expanding what I said a little, Silence is also quite useful for PLD and WHM type critters, as well as BLM ones, wouldn't you agree?

Now, I suppose you got to Lv.75 but never in exp/merit parties or in missions/quest fights dealt with:
- Worms
- Antica
- Goblins
- Imps
- Mamool Ja
- Trolls
- Magic Pots

So, you never really needed to use Silence, right? (Except for Magic Pots, I've exp'ed or merited on everything listed.) I've never done Sky or HNM anything, but Silence has been quite useful to me, thank you very much--not nearly as used as Dia II, of course, but certainly more frequently than Gravity.

Well, I'm happy with Red Mage being able to enfeeb. Too bad you don't feel the same.

[Taskmage]

Healing is always the most important thing, because if you party is dead they aren't gaining experience. But if you don't appreciate enfeebles than you don't understand rdm.

The entire point of refresh is to reduce downtime. A healer that "doesn't need mp savings" doesn't need refresh. How many of those could you name before dancer? Paralyze is 6 mp. Six. If para procs even once on a lizard in the dunes that's 30 damage he doesn't get to do. Savings to the white mage (or you): 8 mp on Cure I. When you're fighting mobs that hit for 100+ that's 24 mp saved for your mere 6. With one enfeeble.

Slow reliably stops 4 attacks per minute. Over two minutes on high level mobs that's two Cure IVs that never have to get cast, which equals 176 mp your healer doesn't have to spend. You know how much mp Refresh gives? 150. Think it'd be better to give my healer 176 mp for 15 of mine or 150 for 40 of mine? If you're not in a speedkill party and you're not casting slow you might as well not be refreshing the whm.You are a disgrace to the Red Mage community. -_-#Quoted for truth. Just because other people don't understand your job's strengths is no excuse for you not to.

[Nuriko]

I'm more WHM than RDM, and I've certainly never thought of enfeebles as not worth using ... well, unless resists are just painful, of course. But wasn't this about pre-staff gear swapping before?

[IfritnoItazura]

As Icemage said, extra MND and INT helps with resist rate. Sounds like a pretty good reason to encourage lower level RDMs to macro swap gears.

[TheGrandMom]

Our debuffs really aren't worth much unless you are in a HNM LS or something of that nature.

....debuffs aren't that important anyway.

I've lvl'd rdm 4 times and I'm working on my 5th. (I like to see how the dynamics of different races affect it and also I just happen to love rdm!) I just don't know what to say to this....really....I am speechless....WOW....

[nanatsu]

I wouldn't go so far as to say that enfeebles are useless. Even though I put aside gear swapping on my second run at RDM, I made sure to set up my gear to maximize the use of what I decided was most important. MND based enfeebles. I made sure my slow, silence, and paralyze landed and landed well. And I most certainly did notice a difference in the flow of the fight when they did land. Anyone who's been in a party with a NIN that won't enfeeble or who has watched a mob get paralyzed several times in a row can attest to that.

[Evion]

Wow! Thanks for all they posts everyone. I didn't put in my 2 gil in the O.P. so, here it goes. I've gone 1-50 with NO gear swapping. I've always been very good at not getting resisted on my enfeebles and have been very good at keeping my MP bar up. I've never had anyone suggest that I gear-swap in any PT I've had so far and had no idea it was needed until lv 51. Although 48%+ voted that it was a bit elitist and perhaps not REALLY needed pre 50, I see that most posts here are to the contrary. Perhaps, everyone was scared to argue with Ifrit ;). Anyway, thanks again!

Oh yeah, one more thing: What's the point of gear-swapping if you can only afford shit gear anyway? What are you going to do, swap shit for shit? LOFL...
(Up until recently) I don't care how affordable you think some gear are, I couldn't afford them. One set of equipment is as good as it gets for some...and that's fine with me. (pre 50 anyway)

[Callisto]

I have separate TP/WS builds for my 20 DRG, who can guess what I voted? At any rate, there's nothing wrong with being above average at any level, and especially at lower levels you can get decent swap pieces for very cheap.

Even at 75 you can gear an effective RDM w/ swaps for rather cheap, aside from a few pricey essentials. As Ifrit stated you may not be doing anything but healing some times, but there's no reason to not be able to do better at any of RDM's possible duties.


Oh yeah, one more thing: What's the point of gear-swapping if you can only afford shit gear anyway? What are you going to do, swap shit for shit? LOFL...
(Up until recently) I don't care how affordable you think some gear are, I couldn't afford them. One set of equipment is as good as it gets for some...and that's fine with me. (pre 50 anyway)

Anyone who isn't new to these forums knows you'd rather XP than spend an hour farming for things that are essential to not sucking at your jobs(umm...Dispel?). These polls are lame, quit trying to lash back at those that called you out for being a noob by trying to paint them as elitists.

[Icemage]

Oh yeah, one more thing: What's the point of gear-swapping if you can only afford shit gear anyway? What are you going to do, swap shit for shit? LOFL...

(Up until recently) I don't care how affordable you think some gear are, I couldn't afford them. One set of equipment is as good as it gets for some...and that's fine with me. (pre 50 anyway)
There is a LOT of inexpensive but good gear out there if you peruse the Wiki and the AH. There's also a lot of questable things. Electrum Rings are inexpensive and a huge plus for Convert even if you can't afford Astrals or lay hands on things like a Serket Ring. Fortune Eggs are acquirable from the typical yearly Easter event. NQ Devotee's Mitts are cheap too, and very effective - but if you nuke wearing them, you should be slapped - hard.

Seriously, this idea that every piece of good gear costs six figures in gil needs to go away. I've been playing since the beta, and to this day, my RDM 75 uses a number of pieces of gear that cost me hardly anything, because they're just more effective for my playstyle.

---

As for the Tarutaru RDM not caring about MP efficiency, that's totally BS. I'm a level 75 Tarutaru RDM with a ~1100+MP Convert ratio and 4 levels of Convert merits, and I still watch my MP expenditures like a hawk because it's very easy to run out of MP when the stuffing hits the fan if you're spending MP unwisely.


Icemage

[Callisto]

As for the Tarutaru RDM not caring about MP efficiency, that's totally BS. I'm a level 75 Tarutaru RDM with a ~1100+MP Convert ratio and 4 levels of Convert merits, and I still watch my MP expenditures like a hawk because it's very easy to run out of MP when the stuffing hits the fan if you're spending MP unwisely.


I hate you Tarus lol...I've started carrying more MP gear for vert macros now that I got GB8 done, and I've gotten to 1180hp/780mp. Although, when I do Nyzul runs and use a mana boost for the last 15 I sit right around 1200/1200, feels good. :thumbsup:

[Spinnthrift]

Well, as it has come up as such a touchy subject, I thought I'd drop a poll and use the results as advice for future RDMS and myself.

Does a RDM pre-50 NEED to have gear-swapping macros or is this a bit elitist?

Thanks for your posts,

Evion

Having read through this thread.. I'd like to add something to this.

I will state now, for the record, I am not what you would call a super Rdm, nor even a good one. I know - without a shadow of a doubt, that I suck at playing this job. My Rdm, right now - is at 44/45 and I doubt it'll see the other side of 60 before 2009. I use it solely for solo'ing ENM's to farm Cloud Evokers and helping out LS mates with BC's

I can't juggle multiple things around. Hell, most of the time - I forget to refresh myself. I'm not really used to having it.

I'm not a great healer either, often being slow on things.

So, when it came down to being able to dump say 50k into various cheap swap gears that helped with hmp, mind and int, so I could enfeeble better, heal better, and generally, not be the laughing stock of every party I was in... it was the best money I could spend (although I've had lots of people laugh at me for sitting on my butt knowing that my convert was up).

I know.. I'm a Rdm, I'm not meant to /heal. Tough, I've been playing Blm too long to know better. Every Gravity, Paralyna, Slow or Blind that stuck and proc'ced hard, made my already confused time as Rdm easier.

Going back to lurking the boards I'm better at now, like Thf. ^^

[WishMaster3K]

Man. This thread needs to get linked into the "What's wrong with the world today" thread.

This is the wrong forum to ask about Gear-Swapping being "necessary".

Gear swapping is better than not. How many times do we need to say it? You have a macro to cast a spell right? You're not wasting any more time typing 5 more lines while you lfg.

As a tank, I care a whole helluva lot if my RDM can stick Paralyze and Slow. And being as how at least 85% of pts before 72 have a tank, I'm probably not alone.

I was never rich in the game. I'm not rich now. But I got gear the same way everyone else did- one piece at a time. Devotee's Mitts. RSE. Maybe I couldn't buy them so I had to farm or do a stupid quest. There are so many more options for gear as opposed to when I was leveling, it's disgusting that so little RDMs care about being efficient.

[Raydeus]

Man. This thread needs to get linked into the "What's wrong with the world today" thread.

This is the wrong forum to ask about Gear-Swapping being "necessary".

Gear swapping is better than not. How many times do we need to say it? You have a macro to cast a spell right? You're not wasting any more time typing 5 more lines while you lfg.

As a tank, I care a whole helluva lot if my RDM can stick Paralyze and Slow. And being as how at least 85% of pts before 72 have a tank, I'm probably not alone.

I was never rich in the game. I'm not rich now. But I got gear the same way everyone else did- one piece at a time. Devotee's Mitts. RSE. Maybe I couldn't buy them so I had to farm or do a stupid quest. There are so many more options for gear as opposed to when I was leveling, it's disgusting that so little RDMs care about being efficient.

Tsk, tsk, tsk.

Wishie, typing more than one line in a macro is being elitist. Heck, typing /recast makes you not only an elitist but a leet pig.

I thought you would've understood that by now. :shocked:

[WishMaster3K]

That's messed up Raydeus... :(

I'm only a part-time elitist- and that's when my main is set to RDM.

I use /recast on things like Sleep, Gravity, Bind, Refresh and Haste... It's NECESSARY! :(

Don't judge me. :(

[Raydeus]

NO! The other 5 lines are exclusively for roleplaying and (Last Resort) macros for abilities (they must include a <call> or two) and they should always use <bt>.

You get bonus points if your macros contain a combination of emotes and /say with <call>s so your party also notice when you use them every 30 seconds.

Remember that old Boost macro in /say? That's how you do it. :thumbsup:

[WishMaster3K]

Or the Chi-Blast/Hadoken. Man, that's SO Original. I HATE it when Mages DON'T spam the chat with who they're healing. I want to know, damnit!

[Esoa]

I've always seen Enfeebling as the only interaction I get with the mob. I do it because it makes the job more interesting but that doesn't mean I have to think it's particularly effective. What matters in an XP party, once you've gotten the "we suck and die all the time" stage out of the way, is how fast you kill. Other than Dia and Gravity (both of which seem to have minimal effect) our enfeebles don't help with that. Assuming that you have enough MP to heal, then defensive enfeebles don't really do anything. Who cares if the tank takes an extra 2000 damage over a minute or whatever number you want to make up, because you have that MP sitting there doing nothing. I've been in many PT's where I've enfeebled, kept everyone Hasted and Refreshed, and everyone is taking so little damage (yay great DPS + NIN tank) that I've had to cast DD spells to fill the time....which is why I subbed /BLM from 35+.

But the topic isn't "Should I Enfeeble". It's whether people who don't gear-swap suck or not. I'm still waiting on some info on exactly how much benefit you get from that small amount of +mnd/int. I don't think it's nearly as much as people claim it is. Enfeebling plays a much larger role at lower levels because tanks typically take a lot more damage, DPS isn't as well geared, and you don't have things like Refresh and Haste but the impact that a bit more mnd/int has does not make or break your ability to do a good job.

As much as I'd like it not to be that way, enfeebles don't define the RDM role in XP PT's. Refresh and Haste and healing do. Maybe if our enfeebles were actually more effective (lol Slow < Elegy, lol Blind < Kurayami: Ni, lol Paralyze rarely procing). Oh well, but then we'd probably be too strong vs. extremely tough mobs and they'd have to compensate by nerfing us in other areas...namely to Refresh or Haste or healing potency. After all we're already vastly better healers than WHM for XPing post-Refresh.

[Spinnthrift]

Just as a quickie response to Esoa..

Dia III reduces the attack needed to hit 2.0 cRatio on the following merit mobs by:

G. Colibri: 116 attack

Seak Puks: 103 Attack

Mamool Ja: ~123 Attack (varies by type)

Skoffin: 125~130 Attack (varies by level)

Gravity basically gives the melee +~20 Accuracy.

That's the 'other' reason why Rdm is more popular than Whm other than pure mp regen power.

[Esoa]

Just as a quickie response to Esoa..

Dia III reduces the attack needed to hit 2.0 cRatio on the following merit mobs by:

G. Colibri: 116 attack

Seak Puks: 103 Attack

Mamool Ja: ~123 Attack (varies by type)

Skoffin: 125~130 Attack (varies by level)

Gravity basically gives the melee +~20 Accuracy.

That's the 'other' reason why Rdm is more popular than Whm other than pure mp regen power.
I thought Gravity reduced the mob's evasion by 10. Isn't that only 10 Accuracy? Where do I find the discussion/testing about the data you provided about Dia/DiaII? How much does Dia II improve actual melee DPS on those mobs?

[Sabaron]

I thought Gravity reduced the mob's evasion by 10. Isn't that only 10 Accuracy? Where do I find the discussion/testing about the data you provided about Dia/DiaII? How much does Dia II improve actual melee DPS on those mobs?

He got me with the same thing. His data on my post came from a test thread on BlueGartr and was reliable.

For Spinn, when you quote specific data like that, a Footnote or link would be nice so we can see where it came from. Otherwise, people will continue to think you're just pulling numbers out of thin air.

[Mhurron]

NO! The other 5 lines are exclusively for roleplaying and (Last Resort) macros for abilities (they must include a <call> or two) and they should always use <bt>.
You get bonus points if your macros contain a combination of emotes and /say with <call>s so your party also notice when you use them every 30 seconds.
Remember that old Boost macro in /say? That's how you do it. :thumbsup:
I have a macro that just does 3 (useless) gear swaps with 3 calls to bring attention to me and to make me look like a better and harder working party member.

Paralyze rarely procing
Maybe if you actually tried to be a better player you'd see paralyze actually working. The way you play RDM, why are you playing RDM at all? All you are is a WHM with less MP, so why not just play WHM or go all out with the Pink Mage bit and sub SMN like a WHM.

And if you say you enjoy RDM more I'm going to bust out laughing.

[hongman]

Esoa

Wow. I hope I never have to play with someone that even agrees with HALF of what you say. Ever.

Now I feel better.

[Taskmage]

Who cares if the tank takes an extra 2000 damage over a minute or whatever number you want to make up, because you have that MP sitting there doing nothing.If you have 168 mp sitting around doing nothing you should've nuked. Do you see why you fail?

MP savings represent not only a decrease in downtime but also an increase in kill speed and thus exp rate. If all you ever do is speedkill merit parties where you never fight a mob for more than a minute, fine. Enfeebles are useless in that context, but in every other situation in the game they're pure gold.

Enfeebles aren't our "defining role in parties" because the differences are subtle enough over a long period of time that unless you're the tank or the healer you probably won't even notice them. But I'll say it again. Just because other people are ignorant of your job's strengths is no excuse for YOU to be.

[Callisto]

Enfeebles aren't our "defining role in parties" because the differences are subtle enough over a long period of time that unless you're the tank or the healer you probably won't even notice them.

That's really only just for XP as well. Tanks and healers sure as hell notice the effects of Slow/Paralyze II against real monsters.

[Mhurron]

Enfeebles are useless in that context
Enfeebles that are effective over time have little place in a speed kill party, however the speed of the kill can be increased by making it easier to hit (Gravity) and take more damage per hit (Dia).

Of course if you're killing so fast that you don't even have time to cast at least one of those then do you really need a healer and therefore a RDM at all since did the mob even have a chance to hit anyone?

[Spinnthrift]

I thought Gravity reduced the mob's evasion by 10. Isn't that only 10 Accuracy? Where do I find the discussion/testing about the data you provided about Dia/DiaII? How much does Dia II improve actual melee DPS on those mobs?

Actually.. I could be wrong on the evasion, just seemed to marry up with personal tests.. looking at the wiki, they say it's ten, and relate it to a 5% drop in evasion, however, even if it is *just* 10.. that's still worth using. They also say this needs clarification there, which means they aren't sure.

I was going off of personal experiences of gravity/shield break/feint effects. Which have greatest impact in that order.

With the maths aspect, http://www.bluegartrls.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=16214 helps. Or you can search around for /check on the wiki, using level correction and the rest as a rule of thumb.

Rdm enfeebling is worth using. ^^

Sabaron's right though - stuff I take for granted I assume everyone else knows immediately. >< It's a bad habit. I'm trying to be better. ^^

[Patchinko]

I thought Gravity reduced the mob's evasion by 10. Isn't that only 10 Accuracy?


People pay good money for 10 Accuracy, sir.

You're silly. ^o^

[Evion]

10 ACC goes for about 30K? (Life Belt)

[Taskmage]

Scorpion Harness ~200k
Hakutaku Eye Cluster ~300k
Peacock Charm ~2M

[Esoa]

Maybe if you actually tried to be a better player you'd see paralyze actually working. The way you play RDM, why are you playing RDM at all? All you are is a WHM with less MP, so why not just play WHM or go all out with the Pink Mage bit and sub SMN like a WHM.

And if you say you enjoy RDM more I'm going to bust out laughing. I gear swap to +mnd gear for Paralyze what do you want me to do? Get real please. I played a WHM to 51 and you've got it wrong. WHM is just a RDM without Refresh, lower enfeebling skill, no ability to solo, and worse nuking ability. Sure, they get Raise III but I prefer that no one in my PT dies in the first place or that we get much better XP so even if they do die their xp/hour is better.

Edit: I forgot Convert. LOL @ WHM having more MP.
------------------------------------------
Scorpion Harness ~200k
Hakutaku Eye Cluster ~300k
Peacock Charm ~2M
They are expensive because they are the best in their slots and rare. People would pay 10 million gil for an item with +1 str if it was the best and ridiculously rare. That doesn't mean a +1 str buff is awesome.
------------------------------------------
Esoa

Wow. I hope I never have to play with someone that even agrees with HALF of what you say. Ever.

Now I feel better.
What do comments like these have to do with the discussion? Go yell at your kids or something.
------------------------------------------
If you have 168 mp sitting around doing nothing you should've nuked. Do you see why you fail?

MP savings represent not only a decrease in downtime but also an increase in kill speed and thus exp rate. If all you ever do is speedkill merit parties where you never fight a mob for more than a minute, fine. Enfeebles are useless in that context, but in every other situation in the game they're pure gold.

Enfeebles aren't our &quot;defining role in parties&quot; because the differences are subtle enough over a long period of time that unless you're the tank or the healer you probably won't even notice them. But I'll say it again. Just because other people are ignorant of your job's strengths is no excuse for YOU to be.
There is an area between "useless" and "golden", and that's where debuffs in most xp PT's lie. There is a HUGE difference between the effect of the debuff and the effect that gear has on it. So if you take a debuff that is mediocre (or even decent) to begin with and increase it's potency by 10%, that's a pretty damn small gain. A gain that doesn't merit calling sub-50 RDM who don't gear swap bad. You can say "oh Gravity rocks it gives +10 accuracy" but lets face it, compared to a buff like Haste which gives 15% haste it's pretty minimal. Buffs > debuffs which is why people like them, not because they are necessarily ignorant.

[Icemage]

I gear swap to +mnd gear for Paralyze what do you want me to do? Get real please. I played a WHM to 51 and you've got it wrong. WHM is just a RDM without Refresh, lower enfeebling skill, no ability to solo, and worse nuking ability. Sure, they get Raise III but I prefer that no one in my PT dies in the first place or that we get much better XP so even if they do die their xp/hour is better.

Edit: I forgot Convert. LOL @ WHM having more MP.


<< WHM75 main
<< RDM75 secondary job

I'll bet that my gear-swapping RDM75 is noticeably more effective than 99.9% of RDMs out there. I have Refresh on all casters and Haste on all melees 100% of the time, I have MP to spare to Sleep II on troublesome targets like Mamool Ja Blusterers, and my merit parties make 20K++ limit points per hour without fail. The only RDMs I've seen who can keep up with me have a Dalmatica/Morrigan Body plus Duelist's Chapeau.

And yes, I even find time to cast the odd Dia II, Slow, Dispel, Gravity, Blizzard III, Paralyze (I don't cast the merited versions of Slow or Paralyze since it's a waste of MP, but the tier 1 spells are cheap and effective enough). Efficiency is efficiency. I have TONS of MP to spend and I find all the many ways to make it work for my party in the best way I know how. And you know what? I'm still looking for more ways to improve. Better gear. Better macros. Smarter spellcasting. And yes, better gearswaps.

RDM is limited in XP parties only by the amount of MP you have available to spend, and if you think Slow or Paralyze is a waste of time, all I can say is your sense of how effective you are sucks. Slower enemy attacks = less time my melees have to spend casting Utsusemi, and maybe even gives them a chance to recast it before they get hit. Paralyze kicking in even once is a shadow saved. Saved shadows = less time melees are casting Utsusemi, and more time attacking. It all adds up.

As for the WHM having more MP comment, I'll wager that my WHM75 has more available MP to spend over time than most non-Taru RDMs. I have 1060HP and 1327 MP in "full on" MP gear mode, and can rest to full in about 200 seconds (3.5 minutes) from empty. And that's using /BLM. The numbers are even better when using /SCH since I'd get Penury every 4 minutes plus the always-on 10% discount of Light Arts.

By comparison, a RDM will net ~480MP every 600 seconds (10 minutes) from Refresh, plus whatever they net out of their Convert. Most RDMs I see float around 800-900 max MP for Convert, and use perhaps 100-160 of that curing themselves back to full.


Icemage

[Taskmage]

You can say "oh Gravity rocks it gives +10 accuracy" but lets face it, compared to a buff like Haste which gives 15% haste it's pretty minimal. Buffs > debuffs which is why people like them, not because they are necessarily ignorant.-10 evasion on a mob = a 5% increase in the hit rate and thus total damage of all melee in the party who are under the acc cap. Haste is a ~17% increase in damage output of one party member. So in a party with 5 melee and a rdm, a gravity increases the party's damage by half again as much as a haste. Obviously the best thing is to use both especially if you have a bard, but calling Gravity's effect "minimal" in comaprison to Haste is again ignorant.

[Patchinko]

They are expensive because they are the best in their slots and rare. People would pay 10 million gil for an item with +1 str if it was the best and ridiculously rare. That doesn't mean a +1 str buff is awesome.

I guess they ought to pay me 100 million gil for using Gravity, then.

Because I'd say 10 accuracy is worth at least 10 times as much as 1STR.

And an RDM who knows what he's doing, like me, is "ridiculously rare"!

[Celeal]

I am not a RDM...

In Exp. Party (pre-74): If the RDM is not swapping gear, in situation like party has a link/pop/aggro and if the RDM is primary responsible for sleeping the link, I hope the RDM's Sleep sticks...

I have seen enough of death because Sleep is resisted.

[Sabaron]

I am not a RDM...

In Exp. Party (pre-74): If the RDM is not swapping gear, in situation like party has a link/pop/aggro and if the RDM is primary responsible for sleeping the link, I hope the RDM's Sleep sticks...

I have seen enough of death because Sleep is resisted.

That's why I'm glad we get two tries... You need gear to make them both count. Loading on +INT to stick Sleep is crucial when fighting in link camps at lower level when an extra mob can easily wipe you out.

[NicasinXS]

I recently rdm binged from 37-75. I had 3 gear swapping macros pre-50 mostly centered on my rings. One macro put on astral and ether, I used this just before convert or if I happen to have a chance to full heal mp the ussual way. 2nd macro was INT rings and the other MND that I had macrod in for certain spells macros. Really I dont see any reason not to gear swap once theres more then one option for any casting gear slot. For instance if you are going to macro /ma "Cure II" <t> why not add in /equip ring1 "Saintly Ring +1" ...etc or whatever right under it. It only takes a few seconds to write a macro. You can be more powerfull as a macro equiping NQ gear user then a non macro gearing full HQ, .. pre-50 that is.

[Zidain]

Personally, I started using gear swaps on my RDM at lvl 10 with Saintly and Eremite's Rings (and Pilgrim's Wand, of course). I'm an admitted gear/stat whore, and if I can get my hands on something that will potentially increase my effectiveness, then I'm going to use it.

I agree with you. If i have a chance to use any type of equipment swapping macros I will. I try to do it on any job that I can, because whats wrong with have that extra umph? As far as RDM's go, the biggest thing to worry about RDM's is the resist rates. If all or most of ur spells are resisted, then all you are good for (as a RDM) is healing. Pre-50, I was swaping out neck pieces, Rings, Capes (until i got a Red Cape +1), and Hands. For convert, I swapped in to Electruim Rings, heal myself, then swap them back out. IMHO, equipment swapping is key for any RDM to be a sucessiful asset to a party.

[WishMaster3K]

WHM is just a RDM without Refresh, lower enfeebling skill, no ability to solo, and worse nuking ability.

Then that means they're nothing like RDM.

They are expensive because they are the best in their slots and rare. People would pay 10 million gil for an item with +1 str if it was the best and ridiculously rare. That doesn't mean a +1 str buff is awesome.

That's the sound of you missing the point.

There is an area between "useless" and "golden", and that's where debuffs in most xp PT's lie. There is a HUGE difference between the effect of the debuff and the effect that gear has on it. [b]So if you take a debuff that is mediocre (or even decent) to begin with and increase it's potency by 10%, that's a pretty damn small gain.[b] A gain that doesn't merit calling sub-50 RDM who don't gear swap bad. You can say "oh Gravity rocks it gives +10 accuracy" but lets face it, compared to a buff like Haste which gives 15% haste it's pretty minimal. Buffs > debuffs which is why people like them, not because they are necessarily ignorant.

You've never cast Paralyze a day in your life if you assume that it's mediocre at best and adding gear makes it Mediocre +10%

I wonder what planet passes over your void of the universe wherein you pull your logic from. I'm going to go out on a limb and say that you only started RDM in the past year or two, and you totally missed the common-sense boat, because even young RDMs like Hongman understand wtf we're supposed to be doing in the back line. You're missing the points of the posts by taking exTREME circumstances.

2000 HP or whatever number we want to pull out of the air is a Huge Fucking Number. As a PLD, If One paralyze proc saves my ass and saves me the HP of eatting another Crawler Firebreath Attack at 90% HP w/o Rampart, it's worth it.

You fail so hard. It's unfathomable. What I realize is that no one on this message board is going to change your mind, so stfu, gtfo and DIAF. This thread isn't for you.

[TheGrandMom]

What do comments like these have to do with the discussion? Go yell at your kids or something.


My comment means I have a lot of rdm experience and have never heard such asinine drivel in my entire rdm career.

And keep your sexist comments to yourself.

...and if you think Slow or Paralyze is a waste of time, all I can say is your sense of how effective you are sucks.

QFT

[Esoa]

I guess they ought to pay me 100 million gil for using Gravity, then.

Because I'd say 10 accuracy is worth at least 10 times as much as 1STR.

I wish. But seriously, look at items like Life Belt and Hauberk, they both have insane stats relative to their price. Then you have items with such marginal upgrades that cost millions of gil. It's not the stats, it's that they are "best in class" + very rare.